We explore the balance between a manager’s tasks vs their relationships. We discuss the bias towards productivity that often overshadows the need for genuine interpersonal connections. Our guest Mike Hohnen, with extensive experience in management roles highlights how to manage emotional engagement for effective leadership, and tips to foster true employee engagement. Listeners will gain insights into creating a more balanced and engaging work environment that values both productivity and strong relationships.
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Episode Transcript
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Matt Best (00:00):
Hello, and welcome to the growth workshop podcast with
(00:02):
myself, Matt best and mycolleague and partner in crime
Jonny Adams. Great to see Jonny,as always.
Jonny Adams (00:08):
Hey guys, lovely to see you. Thanks so much, Matt.
Matt Best (00:11):
So today, we're joined by Mike Hohnen, who is an
exec coach and a successfulexecutive working in the
hospitality sector, with a focuson supporting services
businesses to drive the rightculture and focus on client
service. So, Mike, it'sfantastic to have you on the
podcast. Thank you so much fortaking the time to talk to Jonny
and I today.
Mike Hohnen (00:31):
Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. It's a
pleasure to see you again.
Matt Best (00:34):
So I guess, as is customary on our podcasts, we'd
like to kick things off with abit of something interesting
that's happened in your pastweek. So it might maybe come to
you first is what's been goingon in your week that you could
share with our audience maybeprovide a bit of inspiration?
Mike Hohnen (00:49):
Well, I have an impression that I'm going to be
the odd fish out here. Butthat's fine.
Matt Best (00:54):
Why? Why do you feel like you might be the odd one
out?
Mike Hohnen (00:57):
Well, I'll tell you, I'll try and illustrate
this for you in with a littleanecdote, which is, which would
get us going in that sense. Thecouple of weeks ago, I got a
request for a Zoom meeting overmy calendar system, somebody
who'd found me on LinkedIn, andthen I sort of as we all do,
went down and checked out. Sowho is this person? And why did
I wonder why they want to talkto me, and it turned out to be
(01:19):
the CEO of a rather largesoftware development company
with a very sort of high profilebackground and top management
team high profile background,and, and so I was thinking,
Well, why why on earth have theyfound on to be this? It's a
world I don't understand. I tookthe meeting, of course, and I
wanted it to be polite, but Iprepared a sort of little
(01:40):
speech, you know, it's very kindof you to contact me, thank you
very much. I don't want to wasteyour time. And so when once I
got going on that he stopped meand said, You know, I've
researched you certainly haveresearched you and I understand
what it is you're doing samegame, do you realize that I'm a
humanist, you know, I'm not I'mnot actually madly interested in
the business side of things.It's the people side, I'm a
people sides person. And that'sthe only thing that drives me
(02:02):
the rest, I don't care what itsays, I want you to come and
talk to our people, and try andexplain that there is another
perspective on the world, whichis not the one that we that we
sort of generally normally have,and you have a different
perspective on the world. And Ireally like you to, to elaborate
on that. So I ended up spendingan afternoon with them over in
Nice, and it was great fun. Wehad a really good time.
Matt Best (02:24):
We do tend to talk a lot about obviously about the
business side. And it all comesback to sort of growth. But I
think Mike, what you've justshared there is exactly the
point of this, right? Thatthere's the people side of
things and how important thatis. And that's great, Mike,
there's quite a high level ofmaturity in terms of from a from
a leadership perspective that aleader is willing to say, look,
that's exactly what I need. Iknow, I'm not sort of going to
step out of the numbers for aminute and go back to the root
(02:47):
of my business that might be thepeople. So yeah, absolutely.
Looking forward to digging intointo that with you a little bit
more today. I mean, Jonny, howdo you follow that?
Jonny Adams (02:55):
I feel that it's actually going to possibly align
to what my nose loads about. Andhe's clearly an expert. So I was
in Porto in Portugal, for a fewdays recently, it was an amazing
trip, I if you've ever beengreat. If not, then as long as
you can drink wine, then you'recompletely qualified to go, we
stayed at a five star hotel, andit was pretty special. We
(03:18):
overlook Porto city. And I'mreflecting on what Mike said
something that sort of struck mewe all sort of said would you
pay for this hotel, if you knewit was the star rating it was
because the point being isactually the quality of service
wasn't up to the level, it wasactually below par. And I said
(03:39):
to my wife, I perceive this as afour star hotel. And in fact,
you know, limited urgency andreally different types of
services that we were gettingprovided during breakfast time.
Just simple stuff. Like howattentive a staff member should
be possibly a five star hotelhotel, when you kind of get it a
four star hotel or a three starhotel. But this was a five star
(03:59):
hotel. So I think it looked likethe hotel was living off the
back of the view over Portoversus actually training and
supporting their people. And thesad thing is that when we were
checking out that this othercouple were pretty much berating
and challenging the staff memberat the reception because the
quality of service wasn't up tostandard. And my colleague also
(04:21):
who traveled with us said, I'mvery keen to write a review. So
it was just two peopleindependently. So there was
something going wrong there,Mike, that I'm looking forward
to unpacking? Because if theygot it right, I actually think
the experience would have goneup by a huge amount. And we
would have left with us feelinglike wow, so I don't know. I
just thought I'd throw that outthere. That's what I've been up
(04:41):
to.
Matt Best (04:42):
Mike, I can see you're sort of chomping at the
bit now.
Mike Hohnen (04:44):
I mean, it's just a classic story there. I mean,
there are so many examples likethat out there and they will
it's unbelievable. What reallygets me is you know, it's not
rocket science. We know exactlywhat it takes. It's not it's not
a big mystery. It's a lot ofhard work, but there is a way to
solve that.
Jonny Adams (05:01):
You know, and any requests you might was we all
said, you know, how much wouldyou pay for this? We wouldn't
have paid as much as when wewent on to booking.com and
looked at the cost. And all ofus went, Oh, what's that really
the cost of the, you know, like,wow, so yeah, it wasn't aligned,
the value was not aligned to theinvestment, Matt, what's been
going up in your world?
Matt Best (05:19):
I often share sort of experiences with family and that
I've had with family and I waslucky enough to have my, my
parents over visiting recently.So I think something that I've
really taken away and then overthe last couple of weeks
probably is just that we willtalk about sort of work life
balance, and as it exists, howimportant it is. But actually,
outside of all of thosediscussions, it was just
reconnecting with family andreconnecting with people that
(05:41):
you love, and then trying tofind that you're trying to find
that balance. But I think themost interesting thing is how
that's provided motivation inother areas. So for example, I
went on a jog on the weekend,it's been a long time since I
have, it was just sort of, Ifelt like it had been inspired
by just sort of reconnectingwith other parts of my life. And
it's given me more drive then ina sort of in a work and business
(06:03):
and a business growth context.So it's just just being able to
be conscious of how these thingsall intertwine and connect with
one another, I think is really,really important. So that's my
reflection. But, uh, Mike, Ithink, you know, that example
that you gave is justdemonstration of your sort of
credibility in this space, andwhat people really look for when
they when they want to embark ona conversation with you, or they
hire you to provide services. Imean, tell us just a little bit
(06:26):
about your journey so far. Howhave you come to be where you
are today?
Mike Hohnen (06:30):
Yeah, as you can see, with my gray hairs, it's
been a it's a long way. Longstory, we'll try and keep it
short. I just want to interjectsomething there. But and because
it gets me every time I hear it.How is it we've come to get to
this spot where we talk aboutwork life balance. I mean, it's
rubbish is from my perspectiveis rubbish. Because it implies
that work is not life. And fun.I don't think any of us three
(06:52):
would would sign up for that. Ithink we all three probably work
bloody hard. And we love what wedo. And it's a very important
part of our life. It's adifferent kind of balance. And
it's it's, it's it's a it's afunny way of reinforcing
something that I think iscompletely skewed. In his
thinking we all do. I know thatI'm I hear it the whole time.
But every time I hear it, I tryand shoot it down.
Jonny Adams (07:12):
But what's the answer there, Mike? And I know,
I know, we're sort of moving on.But that's an interesting
perspective. So is theresomething that we can do about
the language that we use? Or isthere something that we can do
from a corporate perspective?Have you got an idea?
Mike Hohnen (07:24):
Well you know, I mean, everything is a question
of how we use words and how weframe things at the end of the
day, that's the first firststep. And so when we frame it
that way, we're already sort ofbuilt an image around it. But
what we're looking at ispolarity between work and
leisure. And what constitutes areally nice life is to maximize
both. That's a good life, if youif you see what I mean, it's not
(07:45):
doing more of one and less ofthe other, it's maximizing both.
If we can maximize both of thosetwo, then we actually thrive.
And so we have to find out whatthat is for us, and in what way
we do it. But it's not like thatwork life balance. For me.
That's, that's the shortversion.
Matt Best (08:01):
Here's something you said that we've got to work out
what works for us. And it's thisfor the concept that it's
individual, and everybody's isgoing to be slightly different
and is going to look ever soslightly different. And I think
in sort of corporate culture,sometimes it's about this is
what the business is doesdefines as good work life
balance, I'm going to use thatterm again. But does that apply
to everybody? Absolutely not, itcan't possibly apply to
(08:22):
everybody says understandingindividual situations and
providing that sort of autonomymay be controlled, like but it's
just even that mindful, beingmindful about it as an
individual and havingconversations about it with your
organization or your businessand sort of working out how that
works best for you. And, andactually, I'm fascinated in how
that works. And coming fromhaving started my career in in
(08:45):
support. And we're going to talkabout service today. Actually,
sometimes that's really hard tofind in a situation where the
reality is somebody needs to bestanding behind a desk for a
period of time somebody needs tobe on the other end of the phone
to speak to a customer for aperiod of time as shift or
whatever that looks like. So howdoes that work? And coming from
the hospitality space, you know,like you said, I mean that
(09:07):
industry works incredibly hard,sometimes some very long shifts,
sometimes a very antisocialhours as a lot of other other
sort of jobs careers in anindustry is do how does how do
you find that sweet spot in aenvironment like that?
Mike Hohnen (09:22):
That's a hopeless question. In a sense, Matt,
because that is exactly what youstarted answering it becomes a
very individual choice it's it'sit's finding one's own sweet as
you said, your own sweet spot.What is it that actually
stimulates me and I think thethree of us would probably not
enjoy not working or or having acompletely we wouldn't thrive
(09:43):
with that. And so each of us hasto find out that but with all
polarities and polarity is afascinating subject but we're
all polarities have this thingthat we they always driven.
There's something we want toachieve. We want to achieve the
good life which is trying tobalance this polarity, but
there's always a fear of something going wrong that will
drive us to over emphasize onepolarity over the other. So
(10:04):
before we get down there, butthe other classic polarity is
leadership versus management.And so we have this fear that
we're not in control that we'renot going to be successful that
we're not going to manage thebusiness that we're not going to
all the rest of it. And so wepush our foot down on the pedal
called management and we push ithard because we think that as
long as I keep pushing thatpedal, and I'm sure it would be
(10:24):
doing right, and the reality is,and it comes at the cost of the
leadership aspect, and then thatdeteriorates. And then you get
the downside of both polarities.And it's a little bit the same
thing. So we in consultingbusinesses, and what we do, we
all wake up in the morning inthe morning and think, oh, when
are we going to get the nextclient? And are we are we being
successful? And I'm doing well?Are we working hard enough. And
(10:46):
so we push the bloody pedal,which is called work. And we
forget to balance it the otherpedal, which is the leisure
part. And in that sense, we doourselves a disfavor because
that means at the end of theday, we're not at our best
anymore. So one has to find out.So what are the what has to try
and identify and actually bereally conscious of the fact
that you said the running. Soone of the things that I could
(11:07):
that I could actually see on ato do list or put in my calendar
or say these when I do thesethings, I'm on the other
polarity, I'm actuallyreinforcing that polarity and
not working on the other onethat way. And then you need to
sort of think a little bit aboutwhat are the warning signs? When
do I know that I'm actually onlyfocused on my work side? What
are the What wife doesn't speakto me anymore?
Jonny Adams (11:30):
Oh my gosh. I love that. I love this point. It is
in our world businessdevelopment. And when you're, as
you alluded to earlier, you tooka call because you're a good
guy, and you wanted to basicallylet that person down gently and
professionally. But in fact,actually you supported them. So
better business developmentthere, we typically see a boom
and bust or a feast and famineapproach. And what we see is,
(11:51):
you know, lots of work, loads ofwork, loads of activity, and
then all of a sudden, you know,this roller coaster motion where
Oh, no, and then you hit thebottom trough, and you go, Ah, I
need to do it. That's fine. Butwhat about our record episodes
in my own life over the last 10years, where I haven't been able
to see what's going to approachand I think about a bit about
(12:12):
mental health. And I think aboutthe polarities between leisure
and work. And when I've workedtoo much, and I haven't done
enough decompressing, I actuallygot to a point of being so
compressed that that I wasn'tfeeling great, but I couldn't
see it coming. So to your point,I love the idea around writing
something down or observing butsometimes you're so in it, and
(12:33):
being driven so hard bymanagement that you just get to
a point and it all breaks apart.I don't know. Any thoughts on
that there, Mike at all.
Mike Hohnen (12:41):
You said the word mental health and well, I think
this is this is this issomething we don't like to talk
about. It's a little bit taboo.It's, it's incredibly important
of years ago, I had, I was alsoworking like crazy. And I was I
was really I was actually reallyenjoying myself, but I was on an
aeroplane three times that we'regoing somewhere. And it was it
(13:02):
just went on and on and thatsense. And one morning, I was
walking, I was preparing to walkinto a client workshop, and my
brain shut off. And I can'treally explain what happened,
everything just went fuzzy andwobbly. And I was disoriented.
And I it was it was I wouldn'twish that on anybody. And the
(13:23):
short story is I spent a yeartrying to getting out of that.
Because once you've you've donethat you and that's the sort of
let this be a warning to anybodywhen you start. And I started.
It took me it took me a year toget around. And during that
first period, it was so bad Icouldn't cross the street on my
own because my brain was notcapable of calculating, you
know, the cars coming or not?Are they faster? Is it Is there
(13:45):
a space, it's actually a pieceof complicated arithmetic our
brain performs, and minewouldn't just wouldn't do it, it
would just can't do that. And soone really has to, and that was
the lesson for me. What are thewarning signs? What was it that
you know, that started tellingyou? What body pains or
headaches or whatever, that youwere pressing this pedal a
little bit hard and too hard.And I think that is so
(14:08):
important, because once it hitsyou, then it's no joke anymore.
I mean, anybody who's been therewill will know what I'm talking
about. It's and I don't wishthat for anybody. It's really,
really tough.
Jonny Adams (14:17):
I resonate, you know, and you had your own
episodes. And you know, I had toturn around to my dad and say is
this what it's like? And I triedto clarify like where I'm at.
And I remember laying on thesofa not being able to move
which felt like for three weeksbecause I couldn't cook I didn't
know how to do that anymore. Andyou know, but now the the
ownership actually comes back tome and my friends like Matt,
you're a massive friend in thiscircumstances and support my
(14:41):
family. But knowing those signsnow is really vital. And I know
we've sort of deviated away fromtopic.
Matt Best (14:48):
I think this is a really important part of
conversation though, isn't itaround that culture and actually
there's a just picking up onthat point that you and the term
or the word polarity and I thinkit's being able to see both
Those signs, as you said, andJonny, you just said, they're
being able to identify what'sgoing on in each of those
different worlds and using basictools such as to do this just to
(15:08):
keep ourselves honest, becauseit's really hard. And again, it
goes back to, we talked about atthe top that everyone's
circumstances different.Everyone's polarity is
different. So everybody'sperspective and wants to do this
will, will look different. Onething you mentioned, Mike, as
you were talking about that wasthis sort of role of leadership
and leadership versusmanagement. And if we think
about that, in the context ofemployees and supporting your
(15:32):
employees, I'm curious, is thatwhere you're you were heading
with that comment aroundleadership versus management? Or
are you approaching that from adifferent perspective?
Mike Hohnen (15:41):
This is where I become a broken record player,
you know, because Jonnydescribed a hotel visit that
wasn't extremely successful. Socoming back to the sort of
overall framework here,everybody wants customer
loyalty, everybody drives forthe it's super interested in
their NPS score, and all of thisgood stuff, but few people
actually really take the time toreflect on the fact. So in the
(16:02):
services industry, I don't knowanything about production, but
in the services industry is whatis the primary driver of NPS,
it's employee engagement,employee engagement drives your
NPS, because there is no loyaltyin basic satisfaction, just
delivering the right product atthe right specification at the
right price exactly as on specand all the rest of it, that
(16:22):
gives you three 3.5. It's on ascale of one to five, it's a
3.5. It's okay. And there's noloyalty in that. So we tend to
over focus on this productspecification and improving the
product. But we forget that inorder to get from basic
satisfaction, to fantasticloyalty and enthusiasm, it
requires employee engagement.And then we need to ask us and
(16:44):
when we look at the engagementfigures, we all know them from
Gallup, and all the rest of weknow them from all the
companies, it's a huge headacheacross the board. In general
terms, most basic engagementlevels are very low. So I think
you can can sardines andPortugal, and not be
particularly engaged in yourjob. But in the services
industry, that from the customerperspective, there is a world of
(17:06):
difference between being servedby somebody who has a job and
somebody who's actually engaged.It's just too different. It's
just two different worlds.There's no comparison. So we
don't spend enough time askingourselves, so what is it? How do
we actually get to that point?What is it that drives that
engagement? How do we get tothere, and then we get back to
(17:27):
my story about the polarities,because if you think about it,
there is a polarity, which wecould call tasks versus
relationships, the to do listall the things we want to do,
versus spending time buildingrelationships with people
connecting all that stuff. Andif we lift that polarity, 500
feet up, essentially, thatpolarity is also called
(17:49):
management versus leadership.The key problem that that we've
that we face out there is thatthe system has a bias towards
task orientation, the wholesystem that we all sort of
subscribe to, in the sense thatwe all live in these pyramids,
there's somebody on top of us,and once on somebody below us.
And whoever's on top of us,whatever level we are on, has a
(18:12):
certain tendency to exercise apressure on us downward towards
us, which is, we could You couldwrap it up in all sorts of fancy
paper, but it's called moreproductivity, we want to we want
to see more output for lessinput, you know, please turn it
up, which is basically a taskorientation. And then there's a
pressure from below us, thepeople who are below us, they
(18:33):
also think they have a differentpressure, they're exercising a
pressure towards us for a betterrelationship, they want more
attention, they want to be seen,they want us to be involved.
They want an emotionalconnection with us one way or
the other. And, and they try anddrive that the problem is that
when we then look at ourcalendar, and all the stuff and
(18:53):
the to do list, what do we givethe priority? Well, because the
guy upstairs, you know, he has,he can be nasty, or she. So we
keep on then value, picking thetask versus the relationship
problem or the relationshipthing that we could be doing.
Having that conversation withthat person going for a walk
(19:14):
with somebody who we know is introuble with whatever they are
doing. And so in that sense,there's already the set. It's
built in, in the way we thinkabout what do we value in work?
What do I as a manager value inthe next level below me, I level
somebody who gets their stuffdone, you know, who delivers on
time and all that stuff. And soin that sense, this is it has
(19:35):
this lopsidedness and the otherthing that's built into that
cake is that when we recruit,who do we recruit, what is the
kind of personality that weprefer? Well, in my world,
hospitality world, who is thethe young, bright waiter who
gets promoted to assistant shiftmanager or something team
leader, whatever? Well, insteadwaiter who's really well
(19:56):
organized and who gets stuffdone and who ticks off the boxes
and hands up in the evening wasvery, who's in fact really task
oriented? And who gets promotedassistant manager? Well, it's
the team leader who's reallytasked Yeah, okay. And so
suddenly, you see that there isa trace all the way through the
system, where everybody who getspromoted to the next level gets
(20:17):
promoted primarily because ofthat task capabilities, they are
really good at getting thingsdone. And I get go crazy in the
hospitality business when I seethis because it's supposed to be
in people. And somehow we getlost in that. But it gets worse.
Because if you then think aboutit, when we are pressured, when
we're under stress, when theheat is turned up, then we all
(20:40):
have a tendency to gravitatetowards what we feel comfortable
doing. And so if you'vestructured your system with
people who are most comfortabledoing tasks, then the more the
heat gets turned up, the morethey will take refuge in the
tasks instead of getting out ofthat bloody office and facing
the problem. Which is havingthat conversation with that
(21:01):
person helping that person growthrough the next level, or
whatever it is.
Matt Best (21:05):
This is it, though, Mike, this is exactly it. And
Jonny, you and I talked aboutthis a lot about and actually we
talk about it through the lensof like middle managers who
often get stuck. And as you talkabout that pyramid structure,
some of the most of ussusceptible in this to this
challenge. I mean, if you're amiddle manager listening to
this, you might be kind ofnodding along as we are like,
What do you say to thoseindividuals might like how can
(21:28):
they help themselves in this inthis situation? Because we can't
all go to our boss's boss'sboss's boss and say you're
running your business completelywrong, you need to focus on it.
So how can a middle managerlistening to this podcast help
themselves?
Mike Hohnen (21:41):
So first of all, you have to break the waterfall,
as I call it, you have to evenif your boss does this, you have
to stop doing it. And that's afundamental mentality, and you
need to make up your mind thatyou want to do that. And then
when I coach people around this,then this Oh, they always
present this to me as a problem.This is a problem. How do I
solve this because my boss ispressurizing me, and this is
(22:03):
what they want. And I know Ishould be paying more attention
to taking care of the people.But I mean, I still have to
deliver it. So I have to say tothem, it's not a problem, it's a
polarity, you need to get betterat managing that polarity. And
you have to see it as a polarityand not as a problem. Because
there's a problem. It's notsolvable, you're always this is
good, this is gonna this is it'sthere every bloody day, day in
(22:27):
and day out, you're faced withthis. And so it's not a problem
to be solved. It's a polarity tobe managed understanding, when
do you do what? When do you putyour foot down and resist and
when do you insist on takingtime to do something else or
whatever it is, but you need todo that. And if you do that, you
will also see how much moresuccessful you end up being
(22:47):
because you get a completelydifferent output from the next
level below you. So they supportyou. But you have to have the
guts to actually believe that.
Matt Best (22:55):
Mic drop. Jonny I can see you've got...
Jonny Adams (22:58):
What you shared there, it is something that we
can all resonate with. And wewill have the ability to I can
see the pictures being formed asyou're describing them. So thank
you for doing that. And as wespoke about earlier, the
importance of that. And Matt, Ireally enjoyed your
questionnaire, and I assume alot of nodding and smiling
because it's just so sorelatable. I guess the question
for me is just going a bit backtowards what you said about MPLS
(23:21):
versus, you know, employeesatisfaction as well. If you're
looking at a business and you'releading a team, what are some of
the three or three things thatyou could deploy that would
drive employee satisfaction upknowing that you're probably
measured of MBAs, but actually,you know, the input is good
employee satisfaction. So whatare like three things that you
(23:43):
know of that could work in inthe service industry is not a
problem, because they could betransferable to other
industries, but any off the topof your head that you could
deploy as a manager.
Mike Hohnen (23:51):
The first thing is, don't ever think in employee
satisfaction. employeesatisfaction is not an
interesting concept in this inthis, this context, because I
can easily have people who aresatisfied with their jobs, but
not being particularly engaged,I got that that doesn't help me.
So I can provide really nicejobs, a decent salaries, work
(24:12):
conditions, I can do all of thatstuff. And I can tick off all
the little boxes over on themanagement side and see I'm
doing that really well. And Iwill get employees satisfaction,
but I don't get any engagement.And so if we go back to the
first thing, the NPS if we standand analyze, so what is it that
drives what is it that moves theneedle in NPS from being
(24:35):
reasonably satisfied to being akey promoter in that sense? It's
not the product. It's not thebasic spec because we're already
we're already established. Ifyou deliver on spec, you get a
3.5. So what is it that needs tobe added to your delivery, your
way of doing it in order to movethe needle? It's an emotional
(24:56):
component. It's an emotionalcomponent in the sense Somebody,
there's somebody in that team,that service team that managed
to connect with you in some waythat touches you, that makes you
feel seen that makes you valuedas a Work customer solves the
problem for your little dog, orsort of whatever it is that they
do they do something that fromthe trigger something in you in
(25:19):
your field, it's a feeling theytrigger in you where you feel,
wow, that was really sweet.Okay. So what does it take to
move the needle, from basicemployee satisfaction to
engagement, it's exactly thesame mechanism, I can get decent
reasonable employeesatisfaction, if I tick off all
(25:41):
the boxes reasonable, I deliveron spec, I do what I'm supposed
to do. But if I want to move theneedle, I have to make sure that
that employee feels an emotionalconnection with this job. And
with me, and the tons ofresearch to support this, that
relationship that we're talkingabout is with your immediate
boss, we join companies and weleave managers, it's the
(26:03):
relationship with your immediatesupervisor, which determines 90%
of your mental health at work.And so it's that relationship.
And it's, it's a relationship,it's not a it's not a to do list
thing. It's a relationship. Soyou need to start thinking about
so what is it that constitutes arelationship? When does
something become a relationship?When do I start thinking, this
(26:25):
mad guy that contacted contactme, he is actually an
interesting and fun guy? Well,he started taking an interest in
me, he asked me questions, orwhat do you do Mike and tell me
a little bit more. And John saidyou were doing some. And so when
we take an interest in somebodyelse, it becomes the first step
in our lives. So think ofanybody that has become a decent
(26:46):
relationship. It starts off witha conversation where that other
person's actually shows interestin you were pretty primitive.
Jonny Adams (26:53):
I think this is so helpful, just to try and get
some some of these amazing tipsout. And I can hear already a
few that I'm thinking of is whenyou structure a business, you
need to think about what type ofperson you're gonna be
recruiting, you know, taskoriented versus relationship
oriented. And thinking,actually, to your point, you
know, what do you wrap aroundthat to keep people and retain
(27:15):
people, you know, thatrelationship opportunity to
create space for people to buildrelationships? Is there anything
else that you would say for whenmanaged, but what not managers,
but when anyone is buildingrelationships, from the tear to
a tear, is there anything thatthey should be doing any ideas,
you know, you meetings, how theyshould structure meetings, one
(27:36):
to one, how they should stretchthat, and things like that, Mike
would be helpful.
Mike Hohnen (27:39):
You just need to learn one thing, they need to
say to themselves, every timethey go into a meeting, or a
group or whatever it is thegoing connection, before
content, that's the mantraconnection before content, don't
barge into a meeting. So this iswhat we need to do. And this is
how we're going to do it.Whether it's with a group, or
whether it's one to one orwherever is take the time to
(28:01):
connect, I see managers who getit, and I see managers who don't
get it. And the managers thatget it, they they follow this
base. I don't know if you'vecome across it. But there's
something called a team highperformance model, which is a
lovely drink suscipit model,it's a lovely model, which
basically states that, you know,you start off with why, who,
what, and then you get to how,and then you start building the
(28:24):
action plan and all the rest ofit. But the foundational piece
that needs to be put into placein all these situations is the
why the who and the what, whenwe do something, when we
engagement when we do something,we want to understand why we're
doing it. It's a key driver. Imean, even Nietzsche talked
about this, you can resist youknow, whatever it was, he just
(28:44):
said you can you can bear anypain as long as you know why.
And so taking the time to maketo make that that clear, what
what is the purpose of whateverit is we're trying to do. And
then what I think is, iscompletely neglected the whole
way around is this concept ofsocial contracting. So whenever
we get together with otherpeople we need to as managers,
(29:08):
we need to scan this room andsay, These people here in the
room today, do they know eachother already? Okay, well, then
that's one thing, no, this jobhere, he's actually new to the
crop. Okay. That means it'sgoing to take us 10 minutes
later, but we now need to makesure we bring into we bring Joe
into this conversation, bringingup today introduce him. So we
spend some time massaging that.And if I sometimes I've been
(29:33):
working with a top managementteam for a hotel and we're
planning an opening one of themcome together as a new group.
And then I can spend the wholeweekend on that, because I get
them to do what I call lifemaps. I get them to share where
they're coming from, whatthey're doing and what way they
experiences and all of that. Andonce I've got that in place,
then the rest of the work justgoes it just flies because
(29:55):
there's no resistance. Noguardedness, no, all of that's
gone. Let's just say and sort ofcamaraderie and trust and an
openness.
Matt Best (30:02):
It reminds me of a conversation Jonny, we had with
a recent guests on the podcast,who talked about an experience
when they had with their, withtheir peer group of leaders and
their direct leader, ratherthese very senior team. And
they'd spent that weekendtogether. And they'd spent that
quality time together. And theyweren't talking about work, they
were just engaging with eachother. They were building
rapport, they were buildingrelationships, and had the
(30:25):
energy that she felt she gotfrom that experience was just
was just so big, you know, thedrive and the motivation that
that created for her. And thenas an expert, as the expert
leader that she is she'stranslating that into how does
she make this? How does shecreate that same experience for
her own team and her own directreports? But, and the why is
(30:45):
it's such an interesting pointto start, because it sounds so
obvious. You know, we've all hadexperiences of businesses where
it's just Oh, no, no, no, we'regonna keep that just inside that
jacket, we're not going to tellthem exactly what we need to do.
Because they don't need to knowthat that's not all.
Jonny Adams (30:59):
They don't know it. The leaders don't know it
themselves. And they're justrunning around doing things
without any vision, purposemission together, that's tying
them all into one, you know,direction, I think we will
listen to someone else. Mattrecently is like, what, why do
armies March? That's a greatquestion. And even someone who
was in the army didn't know theanswer, but it shows conformity,
right, it shows that you're allin one direction that you're all
(31:22):
marching in that direction inunity.
Mike Hohnen (31:24):
And I think, Jonny, I want to follow up on something
that you were asking, so whatdoes one do. And I think the
other thing that we don't reallyunderstand enough in depth is
how important the sense ofbelonging is to our engagement,
feeling that you are part of theteam feeling that you belong,
feeling that that you areaccepted by the others is such a
(31:45):
strong driver in our ownengagement. And it's, it's
really interesting, the sciencessay that when you when you scan
people's brain, and you and yousee what happens to their brain,
if they experience physicalpain, in one part of the brain
lights up. And it's the samepart of the brain that lights up
when people feel they don'tbelong. It's bloody painful to
not belong. But we takeshortcuts like that the whole
(32:09):
time, and don't ensure that wetalk about diversity.
Jonny Adams (32:18):
Visually it's diverse. But actually, are we
encouraging the discussion?
Mike Hohnen (32:22):
For me this leadership aspect is the thing
of trying to keep together whatis by nature inclined to
separate those and split up andseparate those, there's a
constant piece of work thatneeds to be done. And it didn't
never stops, you have to do itevery day, you have to keep it
together. As as a group keepthis the sense of we ask
(32:42):
something together. The sort ofthe conclusion for me after
having been in this gameourselves. For many, many years,
I spent the first 20 yearsactively running hospitality
stuff in all sorts of shapes andforms. And as a top manager, and
then the last since 2001. I'vebeen doing what I do now, this
consulting, and I can just seethat the more and more that I
(33:04):
work on this, the more and moremy business tends to gravitate
towards this relationship stuff,trying to help people understand
how they do that. And also, Ithink it's very important. We
have this sort of, we have afatalistic approach to work
relationships, you know, it's abad team. It's, it's an
irritating guy. I wasn't lucky.Thank God, I can work a little
(33:24):
bit more with the other group,oh, take responsibility for your
relationships. Ask yourself,what is my role in this
relationship actually not beingideal? What could I change? Is
there a different approach fromme that would give a different
response from them? Because itdoesn't, it's not, it's not
helpful not to have those strongrelationships.
Matt Best (33:45):
You can talk about families are businesses and
whatever businesses or family,whatever about all of that,
right, because some of that isjust smoke and mirrors, and
frankly, garbage, some of thatis actually meaningful. But I
think the what you've justshared there is about your own
perception. It's like, okay, youcan't change your family. So you
can't change your family, youcould change your friends, but
you still need to get on withyour fat. Well, some people
(34:06):
might argue, don't, you stillneed to get on it. So you got to
work at that relationship. Soit's exactly that it's take
responsibility, don't just throwit away, because you can't be
bothered, the importance ofhaving to work at it and see it
as something that you need towork on. But then see the output
that working on it will drivefor you and for your business. I
think that's such an importantthing to do. I'm sure a lot of
people on this podcast might bethinking or not thinking, but
(34:28):
mad.
Mike Hohnen (34:29):
It's not on my Outlook to do lists that part. I
can't see it anywhere.
Matt Best (34:34):
There we go. And that is it. Right. That's the final
statement. But it's not on myOutlook to do lists that can't
see it anywhere. So if there isa lesson to I mean, there's a
lot of lessons in this market.Thank you so much for taking the
time to talk to Johnny and Itoday some really fantastic
insight. And really, reallyappreciate your sharing. I know
our audience will love and lovehaving listened to this podcast.
(34:55):
So thank you for joining us, andI look forward to seeing more of
your video. He's online or maybein the not too distant future
maybe seeing you stand up infront of a live audience so
thanks again Mike.
Mike Hohnen (35:07):
Thank you both, it's been, I've had fun and I
really appreciate you acceptingmy rants.
Hello, and welcome to the growth workshop podcast with
(00:02):
myself, Matt best and mycolleague and partner in crime
Jonny Adams. Great to see Jonny,as always.
Jonny Adams (00:08):
Hey guys, lovely to see you. Thanks so much, Matt.
Matt Best (00:11):
So today, we're joined by Mike Hohnen, who is an
exec coach and a successfulexecutive working in the
hospitality sector, with a focuson supporting services
businesses to drive the rightculture and focus on client
service. So, Mike, it'sfantastic to have you on the
podcast. Thank you so much fortaking the time to talk to Jonny
and I today.
Mike Hohnen (00:31):
Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. It's a
pleasure to see you again.
Matt Best (00:34):
So I guess, as is customary on our podcasts, we'd
like to kick things off with abit of something interesting
that's happened in your pastweek. So it might maybe come to
you first is what's been goingon in your week that you could
share with our audience maybeprovide a bit of inspiration?
Mike Hohnen (00:49):
Well, I have an impression that I'm going to be
the odd fish out here. Butthat's fine.
Matt Best (00:54):
Why? Why do you feel like you might be the odd one
out?
Mike Hohnen (00:57):
Well, I'll tell you, I'll try and illustrate
this for you in with a littleanecdote, which is, which would
get us going in that sense. Thecouple of weeks ago, I got a
request for a Zoom meeting overmy calendar system, somebody
who'd found me on LinkedIn, andthen I sort of as we all do,
went down and checked out. Sowho is this person? And why did
I wonder why they want to talkto me, and it turned out to be
(01:19):
the CEO of a rather largesoftware development company
with a very sort of high profilebackground and top management
team high profile background,and, and so I was thinking,
Well, why why on earth have theyfound on to be this? It's a
world I don't understand. I tookthe meeting, of course, and I
wanted it to be polite, but Iprepared a sort of little
(01:40):
speech, you know, it's very kindof you to contact me, thank you
very much. I don't want to wasteyour time. And so when once I
got going on that he stopped meand said, You know, I've
researched you certainly haveresearched you and I understand
what it is you're doing samegame, do you realize that I'm a
humanist, you know, I'm not I'mnot actually madly interested in
the business side of things.It's the people side, I'm a
people sides person. And that'sthe only thing that drives me
(02:02):
the rest, I don't care what itsays, I want you to come and
talk to our people, and try andexplain that there is another
perspective on the world, whichis not the one that we that we
sort of generally normally have,and you have a different
perspective on the world. And Ireally like you to, to elaborate
on that. So I ended up spendingan afternoon with them over in
Nice, and it was great fun. Wehad a really good time.
Matt Best (02:24):
We do tend to talk a lot about obviously about the
business side. And it all comesback to sort of growth. But I
think Mike, what you've justshared there is exactly the
point of this, right? Thatthere's the people side of
things and how important thatis. And that's great, Mike,
there's quite a high level ofmaturity in terms of from a from
a leadership perspective that aleader is willing to say, look,
that's exactly what I need. Iknow, I'm not sort of going to
step out of the numbers for aminute and go back to the root
(02:47):
of my business that might be thepeople. So yeah, absolutely.
Looking forward to digging intointo that with you a little bit
more today. I mean, Jonny, howdo you follow that?
Jonny Adams (02:55):
I feel that it's actually going to possibly align
to what my nose loads about. Andhe's clearly an expert. So I was
in Porto in Portugal, for a fewdays recently, it was an amazing
trip, I if you've ever beengreat. If not, then as long as
you can drink wine, then you'recompletely qualified to go, we
stayed at a five star hotel, andit was pretty special. We
(03:18):
overlook Porto city. And I'mreflecting on what Mike said
something that sort of struck mewe all sort of said would you
pay for this hotel, if you knewit was the star rating it was
because the point being isactually the quality of service
wasn't up to the level, it wasactually below par. And I said
(03:39):
to my wife, I perceive this as afour star hotel. And in fact,
you know, limited urgency andreally different types of
services that we were gettingprovided during breakfast time.
Just simple stuff. Like howattentive a staff member should
be possibly a five star hotelhotel, when you kind of get it a
four star hotel or a three starhotel. But this was a five star
(03:59):
hotel. So I think it looked likethe hotel was living off the
back of the view over Portoversus actually training and
supporting their people. And thesad thing is that when we were
checking out that this othercouple were pretty much berating
and challenging the staff memberat the reception because the
quality of service wasn't up tostandard. And my colleague also
(04:21):
who traveled with us said, I'mvery keen to write a review. So
it was just two peopleindependently. So there was
something going wrong there,Mike, that I'm looking forward
to unpacking? Because if theygot it right, I actually think
the experience would have goneup by a huge amount. And we
would have left with us feelinglike wow, so I don't know. I
just thought I'd throw that outthere. That's what I've been up
(04:41):
to.
Matt Best (04:42):
Mike, I can see you're sort of chomping at the
bit now.
Mike Hohnen (04:44):
I mean, it's just a classic story there. I mean,
there are so many examples likethat out there and they will
it's unbelievable. What reallygets me is you know, it's not
rocket science. We know exactlywhat it takes. It's not it's not
a big mystery. It's a lot ofhard work, but there is a way to
solve that.
Jonny Adams (05:01):
You know, and any requests you might was we all
said, you know, how much wouldyou pay for this? We wouldn't
have paid as much as when wewent on to booking.com and
looked at the cost. And all ofus went, Oh, what's that really
the cost of the, you know, like,wow, so yeah, it wasn't aligned,
the value was not aligned to theinvestment, Matt, what's been
going up in your world?
Matt Best (05:19):
I often share sort of experiences with family and that
I've had with family and I waslucky enough to have my, my
parents over visiting recently.So I think something that I've
really taken away and then overthe last couple of weeks
probably is just that we willtalk about sort of work life
balance, and as it exists, howimportant it is. But actually,
outside of all of thosediscussions, it was just
reconnecting with family andreconnecting with people that
(05:41):
you love, and then trying tofind that you're trying to find
that balance. But I think themost interesting thing is how
that's provided motivation inother areas. So for example, I
went on a jog on the weekend,it's been a long time since I
have, it was just sort of, Ifelt like it had been inspired
by just sort of reconnectingwith other parts of my life. And
it's given me more drive then ina sort of in a work and business
(06:03):
and a business growth context.So it's just just being able to
be conscious of how these thingsall intertwine and connect with
one another, I think is really,really important. So that's my
reflection. But, uh, Mike, Ithink, you know, that example
that you gave is justdemonstration of your sort of
credibility in this space, andwhat people really look for when
they when they want to embark ona conversation with you, or they
hire you to provide services. Imean, tell us just a little bit
(06:26):
about your journey so far. Howhave you come to be where you
are today?
Mike Hohnen (06:30):
Yeah, as you can see, with my gray hairs, it's
been a it's a long way. Longstory, we'll try and keep it
short. I just want to interjectsomething there. But and because
it gets me every time I hear it.How is it we've come to get to
this spot where we talk aboutwork life balance. I mean, it's
rubbish is from my perspectiveis rubbish. Because it implies
that work is not life. And fun.I don't think any of us three
(06:52):
would would sign up for that. Ithink we all three probably work
bloody hard. And we love what wedo. And it's a very important
part of our life. It's adifferent kind of balance. And
it's it's, it's it's a it's afunny way of reinforcing
something that I think iscompletely skewed. In his
thinking we all do. I know thatI'm I hear it the whole time.
But every time I hear it, I tryand shoot it down.
Jonny Adams (07:12):
But what's the answer there, Mike? And I know,
I know, we're sort of moving on.But that's an interesting
perspective. So is theresomething that we can do about
the language that we use? Or isthere something that we can do
from a corporate perspective?Have you got an idea?
Mike Hohnen (07:24):
Well you know, I mean, everything is a question
of how we use words and how weframe things at the end of the
day, that's the first firststep. And so when we frame it
that way, we're already sort ofbuilt an image around it. But
what we're looking at ispolarity between work and
leisure. And what constitutes areally nice life is to maximize
both. That's a good life, if youif you see what I mean, it's not
(07:45):
doing more of one and less ofthe other, it's maximizing both.
If we can maximize both of thosetwo, then we actually thrive.
And so we have to find out whatthat is for us, and in what way
we do it. But it's not like thatwork life balance. For me.
That's, that's the shortversion.
Matt Best (08:01):
Here's something you said that we've got to work out
what works for us. And it's thisfor the concept that it's
individual, and everybody's isgoing to be slightly different
and is going to look ever soslightly different. And I think
in sort of corporate culture,sometimes it's about this is
what the business is doesdefines as good work life
balance, I'm going to use thatterm again. But does that apply
to everybody? Absolutely not, itcan't possibly apply to
(08:22):
everybody says understandingindividual situations and
providing that sort of autonomymay be controlled, like but it's
just even that mindful, beingmindful about it as an
individual and havingconversations about it with your
organization or your businessand sort of working out how that
works best for you. And, andactually, I'm fascinated in how
that works. And coming fromhaving started my career in in
(08:45):
support. And we're going to talkabout service today. Actually,
sometimes that's really hard tofind in a situation where the
reality is somebody needs to bestanding behind a desk for a
period of time somebody needs tobe on the other end of the phone
to speak to a customer for aperiod of time as shift or
whatever that looks like. So howdoes that work? And coming from
the hospitality space, you know,like you said, I mean that
(09:07):
industry works incredibly hard,sometimes some very long shifts,
sometimes a very antisocialhours as a lot of other other
sort of jobs careers in anindustry is do how does how do
you find that sweet spot in aenvironment like that?
Mike Hohnen (09:22):
That's a hopeless question. In a sense, Matt,
because that is exactly what youstarted answering it becomes a
very individual choice it's it'sit's finding one's own sweet as
you said, your own sweet spot.What is it that actually
stimulates me and I think thethree of us would probably not
enjoy not working or or having acompletely we wouldn't thrive
(09:43):
with that. And so each of us hasto find out that but with all
polarities and polarity is afascinating subject but we're
all polarities have this thingthat we they always driven.
There's something we want toachieve. We want to achieve the
good life which is trying tobalance this polarity, but
there's always a fear of something going wrong that will
drive us to over emphasize onepolarity over the other. So
(10:04):
before we get down there, butthe other classic polarity is
leadership versus management.And so we have this fear that
we're not in control that we'renot going to be successful that
we're not going to manage thebusiness that we're not going to
all the rest of it. And so wepush our foot down on the pedal
called management and we push ithard because we think that as
long as I keep pushing thatpedal, and I'm sure it would be
(10:24):
doing right, and the reality is,and it comes at the cost of the
leadership aspect, and then thatdeteriorates. And then you get
the downside of both polarities.And it's a little bit the same
thing. So we in consultingbusinesses, and what we do, we
all wake up in the morning inthe morning and think, oh, when
are we going to get the nextclient? And are we are we being
successful? And I'm doing well?Are we working hard enough. And
(10:46):
so we push the bloody pedal,which is called work. And we
forget to balance it the otherpedal, which is the leisure
part. And in that sense, we doourselves a disfavor because
that means at the end of theday, we're not at our best
anymore. So one has to find out.So what are the what has to try
and identify and actually bereally conscious of the fact
that you said the running. Soone of the things that I could
(11:07):
that I could actually see on ato do list or put in my calendar
or say these when I do thesethings, I'm on the other
polarity, I'm actuallyreinforcing that polarity and
not working on the other onethat way. And then you need to
sort of think a little bit aboutwhat are the warning signs? When
do I know that I'm actually onlyfocused on my work side? What
are the What wife doesn't speakto me anymore?
Jonny Adams (11:30):
Oh my gosh. I love that. I love this point. It is
in our world businessdevelopment. And when you're, as
you alluded to earlier, you tooka call because you're a good
guy, and you wanted to basicallylet that person down gently and
professionally. But in fact,actually you supported them. So
better business developmentthere, we typically see a boom
and bust or a feast and famineapproach. And what we see is,
(11:51):
you know, lots of work, loads ofwork, loads of activity, and
then all of a sudden, you know,this roller coaster motion where
Oh, no, and then you hit thebottom trough, and you go, Ah, I
need to do it. That's fine. Butwhat about our record episodes
in my own life over the last 10years, where I haven't been able
to see what's going to approachand I think about a bit about
(12:12):
mental health. And I think aboutthe polarities between leisure
and work. And when I've workedtoo much, and I haven't done
enough decompressing, I actuallygot to a point of being so
compressed that that I wasn'tfeeling great, but I couldn't
see it coming. So to your point,I love the idea around writing
something down or observing butsometimes you're so in it, and
(12:33):
being driven so hard bymanagement that you just get to
a point and it all breaks apart.I don't know. Any thoughts on
that there, Mike at all.
Mike Hohnen (12:41):
You said the word mental health and well, I think
this is this is this issomething we don't like to talk
about. It's a little bit taboo.It's, it's incredibly important
of years ago, I had, I was alsoworking like crazy. And I was I
was really I was actually reallyenjoying myself, but I was on an
aeroplane three times that we'regoing somewhere. And it was it
(13:02):
just went on and on and thatsense. And one morning, I was
walking, I was preparing to walkinto a client workshop, and my
brain shut off. And I can'treally explain what happened,
everything just went fuzzy andwobbly. And I was disoriented.
And I it was it was I wouldn'twish that on anybody. And the
(13:23):
short story is I spent a yeartrying to getting out of that.
Because once you've you've donethat you and that's the sort of
let this be a warning to anybodywhen you start. And I started.
It took me it took me a year toget around. And during that
first period, it was so bad Icouldn't cross the street on my
own because my brain was notcapable of calculating, you
know, the cars coming or not?Are they faster? Is it Is there
(13:45):
a space, it's actually a pieceof complicated arithmetic our
brain performs, and minewouldn't just wouldn't do it, it
would just can't do that. And soone really has to, and that was
the lesson for me. What are thewarning signs? What was it that
you know, that started tellingyou? What body pains or
headaches or whatever, that youwere pressing this pedal a
little bit hard and too hard.And I think that is so
(14:08):
important, because once it hitsyou, then it's no joke anymore.
I mean, anybody who's been therewill will know what I'm talking
about. It's and I don't wishthat for anybody. It's really,
really tough.
Jonny Adams (14:17):
I resonate, you know, and you had your own
episodes. And you know, I had toturn around to my dad and say is
this what it's like? And I triedto clarify like where I'm at.
And I remember laying on thesofa not being able to move
which felt like for three weeksbecause I couldn't cook I didn't
know how to do that anymore. Andyou know, but now the the
ownership actually comes back tome and my friends like Matt,
you're a massive friend in thiscircumstances and support my
(14:41):
family. But knowing those signsnow is really vital. And I know
we've sort of deviated away fromtopic.
Matt Best (14:48):
I think this is a really important part of
conversation though, isn't itaround that culture and actually
there's a just picking up onthat point that you and the term
or the word polarity and I thinkit's being able to see both
Those signs, as you said, andJonny, you just said, they're
being able to identify what'sgoing on in each of those
different worlds and using basictools such as to do this just to
(15:08):
keep ourselves honest, becauseit's really hard. And again, it
goes back to, we talked about atthe top that everyone's
circumstances different.Everyone's polarity is
different. So everybody'sperspective and wants to do this
will, will look different. Onething you mentioned, Mike, as
you were talking about that wasthis sort of role of leadership
and leadership versusmanagement. And if we think
about that, in the context ofemployees and supporting your
(15:32):
employees, I'm curious, is thatwhere you're you were heading
with that comment aroundleadership versus management? Or
are you approaching that from adifferent perspective?
Mike Hohnen (15:41):
This is where I become a broken record player,
you know, because Jonnydescribed a hotel visit that
wasn't extremely successful. Socoming back to the sort of
overall framework here,everybody wants customer
loyalty, everybody drives forthe it's super interested in
their NPS score, and all of thisgood stuff, but few people
actually really take the time toreflect on the fact. So in the
(16:02):
services industry, I don't knowanything about production, but
in the services industry is whatis the primary driver of NPS,
it's employee engagement,employee engagement drives your
NPS, because there is no loyaltyin basic satisfaction, just
delivering the right product atthe right specification at the
right price exactly as on specand all the rest of it, that
(16:22):
gives you three 3.5. It's on ascale of one to five, it's a
3.5. It's okay. And there's noloyalty in that. So we tend to
over focus on this productspecification and improving the
product. But we forget that inorder to get from basic
satisfaction, to fantasticloyalty and enthusiasm, it
requires employee engagement.And then we need to ask us and
(16:44):
when we look at the engagementfigures, we all know them from
Gallup, and all the rest of weknow them from all the
companies, it's a huge headacheacross the board. In general
terms, most basic engagementlevels are very low. So I think
you can can sardines andPortugal, and not be
particularly engaged in yourjob. But in the services
industry, that from the customerperspective, there is a world of
(17:06):
difference between being servedby somebody who has a job and
somebody who's actually engaged.It's just too different. It's
just two different worlds.There's no comparison. So we
don't spend enough time askingourselves, so what is it? How do
we actually get to that point?What is it that drives that
engagement? How do we get tothere, and then we get back to
(17:27):
my story about the polarities,because if you think about it,
there is a polarity, which wecould call tasks versus
relationships, the to do listall the things we want to do,
versus spending time buildingrelationships with people
connecting all that stuff. Andif we lift that polarity, 500
feet up, essentially, thatpolarity is also called
(17:49):
management versus leadership.The key problem that that we've
that we face out there is thatthe system has a bias towards
task orientation, the wholesystem that we all sort of
subscribe to, in the sense thatwe all live in these pyramids,
there's somebody on top of us,and once on somebody below us.
And whoever's on top of us,whatever level we are on, has a
(18:12):
certain tendency to exercise apressure on us downward towards
us, which is, we could You couldwrap it up in all sorts of fancy
paper, but it's called moreproductivity, we want to we want
to see more output for lessinput, you know, please turn it
up, which is basically a taskorientation. And then there's a
pressure from below us, thepeople who are below us, they
(18:33):
also think they have a differentpressure, they're exercising a
pressure towards us for a betterrelationship, they want more
attention, they want to be seen,they want us to be involved.
They want an emotionalconnection with us one way or
the other. And, and they try anddrive that the problem is that
when we then look at ourcalendar, and all the stuff and
(18:53):
the to do list, what do we givethe priority? Well, because the
guy upstairs, you know, he has,he can be nasty, or she. So we
keep on then value, picking thetask versus the relationship
problem or the relationshipthing that we could be doing.
Having that conversation withthat person going for a walk
(19:14):
with somebody who we know is introuble with whatever they are
doing. And so in that sense,there's already the set. It's
built in, in the way we thinkabout what do we value in work?
What do I as a manager value inthe next level below me, I level
somebody who gets their stuffdone, you know, who delivers on
time and all that stuff. And soin that sense, this is it has
(19:35):
this lopsidedness and the otherthing that's built into that
cake is that when we recruit,who do we recruit, what is the
kind of personality that weprefer? Well, in my world,
hospitality world, who is thethe young, bright waiter who
gets promoted to assistant shiftmanager or something team
leader, whatever? Well, insteadwaiter who's really well
(19:56):
organized and who gets stuffdone and who ticks off the boxes
and hands up in the evening wasvery, who's in fact really task
oriented? And who gets promotedassistant manager? Well, it's
the team leader who's reallytasked Yeah, okay. And so
suddenly, you see that there isa trace all the way through the
system, where everybody who getspromoted to the next level gets
(20:17):
promoted primarily because ofthat task capabilities, they are
really good at getting thingsdone. And I get go crazy in the
hospitality business when I seethis because it's supposed to be
in people. And somehow we getlost in that. But it gets worse.
Because if you then think aboutit, when we are pressured, when
we're under stress, when theheat is turned up, then we all
(20:40):
have a tendency to gravitatetowards what we feel comfortable
doing. And so if you'vestructured your system with
people who are most comfortabledoing tasks, then the more the
heat gets turned up, the morethey will take refuge in the
tasks instead of getting out ofthat bloody office and facing
the problem. Which is havingthat conversation with that
(21:01):
person helping that person growthrough the next level, or
whatever it is.
Matt Best (21:05):
This is it, though, Mike, this is exactly it. And
Jonny, you and I talked aboutthis a lot about and actually we
talk about it through the lensof like middle managers who
often get stuck. And as you talkabout that pyramid structure,
some of the most of ussusceptible in this to this
challenge. I mean, if you're amiddle manager listening to
this, you might be kind ofnodding along as we are like,
What do you say to thoseindividuals might like how can
(21:28):
they help themselves in this inthis situation? Because we can't
all go to our boss's boss'sboss's boss and say you're
running your business completelywrong, you need to focus on it.
So how can a middle managerlistening to this podcast help
themselves?
Mike Hohnen (21:41):
So first of all, you have to break the waterfall,
as I call it, you have to evenif your boss does this, you have
to stop doing it. And that's afundamental mentality, and you
need to make up your mind thatyou want to do that. And then
when I coach people around this,then this Oh, they always
present this to me as a problem.This is a problem. How do I
solve this because my boss ispressurizing me, and this is
(22:03):
what they want. And I know Ishould be paying more attention
to taking care of the people.But I mean, I still have to
deliver it. So I have to say tothem, it's not a problem, it's a
polarity, you need to get betterat managing that polarity. And
you have to see it as a polarityand not as a problem. Because
there's a problem. It's notsolvable, you're always this is
good, this is gonna this is it'sthere every bloody day, day in
(22:27):
and day out, you're faced withthis. And so it's not a problem
to be solved. It's a polarity tobe managed understanding, when
do you do what? When do you putyour foot down and resist and
when do you insist on takingtime to do something else or
whatever it is, but you need todo that. And if you do that, you
will also see how much moresuccessful you end up being
(22:47):
because you get a completelydifferent output from the next
level below you. So they supportyou. But you have to have the
guts to actually believe that.
Matt Best (22:55):
Mic drop. Jonny I can see you've got...
Jonny Adams (22:58):
What you shared there, it is something that we
can all resonate with. And wewill have the ability to I can
see the pictures being formed asyou're describing them. So thank
you for doing that. And as wespoke about earlier, the
importance of that. And Matt, Ireally enjoyed your
questionnaire, and I assume alot of nodding and smiling
because it's just so sorelatable. I guess the question
for me is just going a bit backtowards what you said about MPLS
(23:21):
versus, you know, employeesatisfaction as well. If you're
looking at a business and you'releading a team, what are some of
the three or three things thatyou could deploy that would
drive employee satisfaction upknowing that you're probably
measured of MBAs, but actually,you know, the input is good
employee satisfaction. So whatare like three things that you
(23:43):
know of that could work in inthe service industry is not a
problem, because they could betransferable to other
industries, but any off the topof your head that you could
deploy as a manager.
Mike Hohnen (23:51):
The first thing is, don't ever think in employee
satisfaction. employeesatisfaction is not an
interesting concept in this inthis, this context, because I
can easily have people who aresatisfied with their jobs, but
not being particularly engaged,I got that that doesn't help me.
So I can provide really nicejobs, a decent salaries, work
(24:12):
conditions, I can do all of thatstuff. And I can tick off all
the little boxes over on themanagement side and see I'm
doing that really well. And Iwill get employees satisfaction,
but I don't get any engagement.And so if we go back to the
first thing, the NPS if we standand analyze, so what is it that
drives what is it that moves theneedle in NPS from being
(24:35):
reasonably satisfied to being akey promoter in that sense? It's
not the product. It's not thebasic spec because we're already
we're already established. Ifyou deliver on spec, you get a
3.5. So what is it that needs tobe added to your delivery, your
way of doing it in order to movethe needle? It's an emotional
(24:56):
component. It's an emotionalcomponent in the sense Somebody,
there's somebody in that team,that service team that managed
to connect with you in some waythat touches you, that makes you
feel seen that makes you valuedas a Work customer solves the
problem for your little dog, orsort of whatever it is that they
do they do something that fromthe trigger something in you in
(25:19):
your field, it's a feeling theytrigger in you where you feel,
wow, that was really sweet.Okay. So what does it take to
move the needle, from basicemployee satisfaction to
engagement, it's exactly thesame mechanism, I can get decent
reasonable employeesatisfaction, if I tick off all
(25:41):
the boxes reasonable, I deliveron spec, I do what I'm supposed
to do. But if I want to move theneedle, I have to make sure that
that employee feels an emotionalconnection with this job. And
with me, and the tons ofresearch to support this, that
relationship that we're talkingabout is with your immediate
boss, we join companies and weleave managers, it's the
(26:03):
relationship with your immediatesupervisor, which determines 90%
of your mental health at work.And so it's that relationship.
And it's, it's a relationship,it's not a it's not a to do list
thing. It's a relationship. Soyou need to start thinking about
so what is it that constitutes arelationship? When does
something become a relationship?When do I start thinking, this
(26:25):
mad guy that contacted contactme, he is actually an
interesting and fun guy? Well,he started taking an interest in
me, he asked me questions, orwhat do you do Mike and tell me
a little bit more. And John saidyou were doing some. And so when
we take an interest in somebodyelse, it becomes the first step
in our lives. So think ofanybody that has become a decent
(26:46):
relationship. It starts off witha conversation where that other
person's actually shows interestin you were pretty primitive.
Jonny Adams (26:53):
I think this is so helpful, just to try and get
some some of these amazing tipsout. And I can hear already a
few that I'm thinking of is whenyou structure a business, you
need to think about what type ofperson you're gonna be
recruiting, you know, taskoriented versus relationship
oriented. And thinking,actually, to your point, you
know, what do you wrap aroundthat to keep people and retain
(27:15):
people, you know, thatrelationship opportunity to
create space for people to buildrelationships? Is there anything
else that you would say for whenmanaged, but what not managers,
but when anyone is buildingrelationships, from the tear to
a tear, is there anything thatthey should be doing any ideas,
you know, you meetings, how theyshould structure meetings, one
(27:36):
to one, how they should stretchthat, and things like that, Mike
would be helpful.
Mike Hohnen (27:39):
You just need to learn one thing, they need to
say to themselves, every timethey go into a meeting, or a
group or whatever it is thegoing connection, before
content, that's the mantraconnection before content, don't
barge into a meeting. So this iswhat we need to do. And this is
how we're going to do it.Whether it's with a group, or
whether it's one to one orwherever is take the time to
(28:01):
connect, I see managers who getit, and I see managers who don't
get it. And the managers thatget it, they they follow this
base. I don't know if you'vecome across it. But there's
something called a team highperformance model, which is a
lovely drink suscipit model,it's a lovely model, which
basically states that, you know,you start off with why, who,
what, and then you get to how,and then you start building the
(28:24):
action plan and all the rest ofit. But the foundational piece
that needs to be put into placein all these situations is the
why the who and the what, whenwe do something, when we
engagement when we do something,we want to understand why we're
doing it. It's a key driver. Imean, even Nietzsche talked
about this, you can resist youknow, whatever it was, he just
(28:44):
said you can you can bear anypain as long as you know why.
And so taking the time to maketo make that that clear, what
what is the purpose of whateverit is we're trying to do. And
then what I think is, iscompletely neglected the whole
way around is this concept ofsocial contracting. So whenever
we get together with otherpeople we need to as managers,
(29:08):
we need to scan this room andsay, These people here in the
room today, do they know eachother already? Okay, well, then
that's one thing, no, this jobhere, he's actually new to the
crop. Okay. That means it'sgoing to take us 10 minutes
later, but we now need to makesure we bring into we bring Joe
into this conversation, bringingup today introduce him. So we
spend some time massaging that.And if I sometimes I've been
(29:33):
working with a top managementteam for a hotel and we're
planning an opening one of themcome together as a new group.
And then I can spend the wholeweekend on that, because I get
them to do what I call lifemaps. I get them to share where
they're coming from, whatthey're doing and what way they
experiences and all of that. Andonce I've got that in place,
then the rest of the work justgoes it just flies because
(29:55):
there's no resistance. Noguardedness, no, all of that's
gone. Let's just say and sort ofcamaraderie and trust and an
openness.
Matt Best (30:02):
It reminds me of a conversation Jonny, we had with
a recent guests on the podcast,who talked about an experience
when they had with their, withtheir peer group of leaders and
their direct leader, ratherthese very senior team. And
they'd spent that weekendtogether. And they'd spent that
quality time together. And theyweren't talking about work, they
were just engaging with eachother. They were building
rapport, they were buildingrelationships, and had the
(30:25):
energy that she felt she gotfrom that experience was just
was just so big, you know, thedrive and the motivation that
that created for her. And thenas an expert, as the expert
leader that she is she'stranslating that into how does
she make this? How does shecreate that same experience for
her own team and her own directreports? But, and the why is
(30:45):
it's such an interesting pointto start, because it sounds so
obvious. You know, we've all hadexperiences of businesses where
it's just Oh, no, no, no, we'regonna keep that just inside that
jacket, we're not going to tellthem exactly what we need to do.
Because they don't need to knowthat that's not all.
Jonny Adams (30:59):
They don't know it. The leaders don't know it
themselves. And they're justrunning around doing things
without any vision, purposemission together, that's tying
them all into one, you know,direction, I think we will
listen to someone else. Mattrecently is like, what, why do
armies March? That's a greatquestion. And even someone who
was in the army didn't know theanswer, but it shows conformity,
right, it shows that you're allin one direction that you're all
(31:22):
marching in that direction inunity.
Mike Hohnen (31:24):
And I think, Jonny, I want to follow up on something
that you were asking, so whatdoes one do. And I think the
other thing that we don't reallyunderstand enough in depth is
how important the sense ofbelonging is to our engagement,
feeling that you are part of theteam feeling that you belong,
feeling that that you areaccepted by the others is such a
(31:45):
strong driver in our ownengagement. And it's, it's
really interesting, the sciencessay that when you when you scan
people's brain, and you and yousee what happens to their brain,
if they experience physicalpain, in one part of the brain
lights up. And it's the samepart of the brain that lights up
when people feel they don'tbelong. It's bloody painful to
not belong. But we takeshortcuts like that the whole
(32:09):
time, and don't ensure that wetalk about diversity.
Jonny Adams (32:18):
Visually it's diverse. But actually, are we
encouraging the discussion?
Mike Hohnen (32:22):
For me this leadership aspect is the thing
of trying to keep together whatis by nature inclined to
separate those and split up andseparate those, there's a
constant piece of work thatneeds to be done. And it didn't
never stops, you have to do itevery day, you have to keep it
together. As as a group keepthis the sense of we ask
(32:42):
something together. The sort ofthe conclusion for me after
having been in this gameourselves. For many, many years,
I spent the first 20 yearsactively running hospitality
stuff in all sorts of shapes andforms. And as a top manager, and
then the last since 2001. I'vebeen doing what I do now, this
consulting, and I can just seethat the more and more that I
(33:04):
work on this, the more and moremy business tends to gravitate
towards this relationship stuff,trying to help people understand
how they do that. And also, Ithink it's very important. We
have this sort of, we have afatalistic approach to work
relationships, you know, it's abad team. It's, it's an
irritating guy. I wasn't lucky.Thank God, I can work a little
(33:24):
bit more with the other group,oh, take responsibility for your
relationships. Ask yourself,what is my role in this
relationship actually not beingideal? What could I change? Is
there a different approach fromme that would give a different
response from them? Because itdoesn't, it's not, it's not
helpful not to have those strongrelationships.
Matt Best (33:45):
You can talk about families are businesses and
whatever businesses or family,whatever about all of that,
right, because some of that isjust smoke and mirrors, and
frankly, garbage, some of thatis actually meaningful. But I
think the what you've justshared there is about your own
perception. It's like, okay, youcan't change your family. So you
can't change your family, youcould change your friends, but
you still need to get on withyour fat. Well, some people
(34:06):
might argue, don't, you stillneed to get on it. So you got to
work at that relationship. Soit's exactly that it's take
responsibility, don't just throwit away, because you can't be
bothered, the importance ofhaving to work at it and see it
as something that you need towork on. But then see the output
that working on it will drivefor you and for your business. I
think that's such an importantthing to do. I'm sure a lot of
people on this podcast might bethinking or not thinking, but
(34:28):
mad.
Mike Hohnen (34:29):
It's not on my Outlook to do lists that part. I
can't see it anywhere.
Matt Best (34:34):
There we go. And that is it. Right. That's the final
statement. But it's not on myOutlook to do lists that can't
see it anywhere. So if there isa lesson to I mean, there's a
lot of lessons in this market.Thank you so much for taking the
time to talk to Johnny and Itoday some really fantastic
insight. And really, reallyappreciate your sharing. I know
our audience will love and lovehaving listened to this podcast.
(34:55):
So thank you for joining us, andI look forward to seeing more of
your video. He's online or maybein the not too distant future
maybe seeing you stand up infront of a live audience so
thanks again Mike.
Mike Hohnen (35:07):
Thank you both, it's been, I've had fun and I
really appreciate you acceptingmy rants.
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