My guest today was the FIRST to reach the DEEPEST point of the ocean, known as Challenger Deep. In 1960 US Navy lieutenant Don Walsh and Swiss oceanographer and explorer Jacques Piccard piloted the bathyscaphe Trieste 35,797 ft BELOW THE SURFACE OF THE SEA, when it
became the first crewed vessel to reach the bottom the Mariana Trench, the deepest point in Earth's seabed.
My conversation with Don Walsh could not have predicted that such a disaster as the Titan submersible would have taken place. Eerily, Don and I discussed the logistics of preparing a vessel to dive to such depths, the safeguards, the rigorous testing.
Please stick around the the poll question near the end.
Please join our Patreon:
https://www.patreon.com/thehappinessquotient
If you've been enjoying the podcast and find value in the content, we'd be incredibly grateful for your support. Your monthly contribution helps ensuring that we can continue delivering great content for you to enjoy.
Click on the link below:
https://www.buzzsprout.com/268133/support
Thank you!
Thom Dharma Pollard
Here are a few ways you can help support us:
Patreon for access to exclusive content:
https://www.patreon.com/everestmystery
EVEREST MYSTERY Membership for access to perks and exclusive content:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEk3e_XGyNnqwK2ZlxH7fEA/join
Tip Jar for anyone who would like to help support us:
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/EverestMystery
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Thom Pollard (00:00):
As a little kid I used to dream of being on the
(00:02):
Lewis and Clark expedition whichin 1804, and 1805 explored the
newly purchased western regionsof the United States going up
the Missouri River to thePacific Ocean. I was also
fascinated by the explorers whoendeavored to be the first like
a months and in the race to thenorth and south poles in 1909
and 1911. Chuck Yeager breakingthe speed of sound in 1947, Sir
(00:27):
Edmund Hillary and TenzingNorgay Of course, first to stand
on top of Mount Everest in 1953.
And as a little kid absolutelyindelibly imprinted into my mind
at school watching NeilArmstrong take the first steps
on the moon in 1969, followed byBuzz Aldrin. My guest today was
one of those firsts one of thegreat explorers of our time, he
(00:50):
reached the deepest point in theocean known as Challenger Deep
in 1960. US Navy Lieutenant DonWalsh and Swiss oceanographer
and explorer Jacque Picardpiloted, the bathyscaphe tree
asked 35,797 feet below thesurface of the ocean when it
(01:12):
became the first manned vesselto reach the bottom of the
Mariana Trench, the deepestpoint in the Earth's seabed
given the recent news of theTriton submersible disaster and
the public's voracious appetitefor news about not only what
went wrong on the submersibledisaster, but how a maverick
explorer if you will, likestocked in rush could get away
(01:37):
with skirting so many rules, ifyou will regulations and still
command a ticket price of$250,000 for the opportunity to
become a mission specialist totake it to the bottom of the sea
to visit the wreck of theTitanic that the Titanic is
still claiming victims 111 yearsafter she first sank is actually
(02:01):
a mind boggling intermingling oftime and space, a continuation
of a completely avoidabledisaster that has forever
captivated the minds of millionsof people, including filmmaker
James Cameron, who not onlycreated the blockbuster film,
Titanic, but himself has visitedthe wreck 37 times, many of them
(02:24):
in a submersible that hedesigned my conversation with
the one and only Don Walsh fromhis home in Oregon. Well, it was
two years ago, and at the time,there is no conceivable way we
could have predicted thedisaster on the Titan
submersible. And fittinglyironically, it seems that our
(02:44):
entire conversation is sopertinent to everything that
took place on the submersible, aperfect conversation for the
times we're living in. Now, inthis day and age where all sorts
of extreme tourism tickets arefor sale. Case in point over 470
people paid sometimes over$100,000 for the chance to be
(03:05):
guided up Mount Everest on fixedlines. And this year, 17 people
died on the mountain extremetourism is indeed a dangerous
game. And what about the peoplewho paid $55 million for the
opportunity to go into spacewith SpaceX for $55 million? I
(03:26):
think I'd probably rather wear aBozo the Clown outfit. These are
just the most hideous thingsI've ever seen. It's like, come
on. All right, my opinion aboutwhat those spacesuits look like
has no bearing on thisconversation. Later in the
video, I'm going to ask aquestion that I hope you'll
stick around to answer and it ispertaining to the Everest
(03:48):
mystery channel and myconversation with Don Walsh. Tom
Walsh is my guest today. He isan explorer and adventurer, a
diver an engineer, historian,journalist researcher, you'd
think that Don Walsh might havebeen happy with the
accomplishments of 1960 Going tothe bottom of the ocean, but for
(04:08):
him that was just the beginning.
In 1975, he retired from theNavy to become a professor of
Ocean Engineering at theUniversity of Southern
California, where he founded theInstitute of Marine and Coastal
Studies. He left USC in 1984.
He's authored over 200 OceanRelated Publications spoken
(04:30):
about his work in over 1700public programs he's visited
over 120 countries has been onover 160 cruises, where he has
given lectures about hisexploration and also his
oceanographic knowledge of thepolar regions and beyond. There
is a mountain named for him andAntarctica, where he has visited
(04:52):
over 40 times in 2001. Hereceived the Explorers Club
metal In 2010, he was awardedthe National Geographic
society's highest award, theHubbard medal. Oh, and he has
been to the site of the Titanic,here is my conversation with the
inspiring and ever engaging DonWalsh from his home in
(05:15):
southwestern Oregon. You know,only a few people get the
distinction of being the firstto, if you will, one of the
poles, you know, whether it'sEverest, North Pole, South power
pole, the deepest. And you havethat distinction, you know,
what's it like to go down thatdeep, when one small malfunction
(05:37):
would be? You know, I can't evenimagine the ending how quick it
would be.
Don Walsh (05:47):
Oh, alright, start that you remind me of something
that one of the big takeouts forme and ever since nightshift,
some recognition with the divingwork 62 years ago, was the
people I meet along the way, youalso you have access to a lot of
different people. Not thatthey're seeking you out. But to
(06:09):
get co mingle with them, you'reat the same head table. Because
you have a program and WalterCronkite sitting next to him at
dinner. He's got something elsehe's supposed to be doing. But
you there's a certain normalizedfactor of people who have
attained something. So you don'thave to do the one up stop. They
(06:31):
know who you are, you know whothey are. That's off the table
he just visiting. And I find itvery end. It's not small talk.
So I'm just really serious, likethe future of exploration, stuff
like that, or whatever thecommunal interest is, sometimes
it's totally unexpected, likewhen I was in St. Petersburg,
(06:54):
ending up having lunch withGorbachev, which is six people.
You know, I got up that morning,Joan. And I did and were invited
to lunch by another couple onour ship. She was a former Prime
Minister of Norway during theCold War. And Gorbachev knew
that she was coming to St.
Petersburg. So he says, comehave lunch, we'll talk and in
(07:14):
bring another couple. Well, shedidn't reveal that to us. And so
we get to the restaurant at TheAstoria Hotel in St. Petersburg,
which is the fanciest This isour astera. It's the best in
Petersburg, and the table setfor six. And Joan, talk to you
and who is this? I mean, who'scome as I don't know if Dr.
Brundtland has some valid rightand her husband invited us to we
(07:39):
know this way somebody elselocal. And so pretty soon for
guys walk in the door. You know,we used to characterize them in
the commercial diving world ashaving size 38 collar and a size
two hat. You know, and they'reall kind of their hands in the
waistband and they parkthemselves in the forecourt
because it's the main diningroom. Wow. I thought How far is
(08:01):
it to get under the table if theboat start flying? And then in
comes garbage check with histranslator, Pavel. And I said
many years unwatched, my name isDawn walls. That was the last
thing I said for two hours,which is your order to gather?
(08:21):
Economy a speech is not in myparticular backpack. And just
surprised, and, you know, heshook her hand, but she didn't
say anything. We all sat downand for two hours, eat a little
delivered us oil equate to hisold Cold War, buddy, Dr.
(08:43):
Brundtland, Norway, what could Ihave done better? What will they
put on my tombstone? How can youturn off seven years of
Stalinism by just one presidentof a Soviet Union. And it was
pages of history. It waswonderful. So after the lunch,
(09:03):
Joan and I go back out on thestreet, thought we'd have a
little walk around downtown. Andshe turns to me, she said, you
should know how to take a girlon a lunch date.
That's an example of thenetwork. Oh, we're gonna have
lunch. It's all because I'mgoing to bid on that ship
(09:26):
expedition ship if I hadn't beenthere as a lecture. But I wasn't
lecturing to that particularcruise Dr. Brundtland and
relieved me. She was talkingabout the Cold War in the Baltic
Sea. So we just had to show upfor meals, kind of No, no to
encourage tourism in Russia.
This all comes one thing kind ofknocks onto another it's
(09:46):
amazing. I don't ask for any ofit just happens.
Thom Pollard (09:51):
Truly the most lasting and meaningful aspect of
it all are the humanrelationships that are built
along the way that without it, Imight as well just stay right
here in my house I it thepeople, the cultures, and the
individual relationships thatare formed when you go through a
hardship i can imagine what itmust have been was shock Picard
(10:16):
after you know, I mean that youare that's the essence of
exploration for me is thatpeople who you become friends
with well and
Don Walsh (10:25):
cars to the three Picard siblings. I'm Uncle Don,
what the thing I guess I wantedto mention, that didn't bring it
up. And make it clear is thatafter I did the deepest dive, I
was 28 years old, I realizedthat the same position that the
guy that made the touchdown thatwon the big game, in university
(10:47):
in college, and he sort of dieafter that, rest, your life
didn't count. And I reallydidn't want to be in that
situation. So I, you know, whenI'm going down the polar
regions, I never talk aboutdiving stuff. It's not related,
it's not relevant. Yourrelevance is to where the ship
is what you're going to see whatwe're doing. And I'm an
(11:09):
oceanographer. So my PhD is inoceanography. So I can talk on
oceanography without talkingabout Triest. And so I in those
venues, I never talked abouttres. But what I'm doing
underwater stuff, those venues,I never talked about the polar
regions, but I have these sortof two parallel live streams.
Thom Pollard (11:32):
But when you were down, going down into that, it
it it might as well have beengoing to the moon. And I can't
imagine that you didn't beforeyou actually submerge, knowing
you're going there that likethis could be like your and I
(11:54):
know you had talked about thiscould be the end. I mean, we
could we could not. That's achance we don't make it. But you
had two brains, two smart,young, highly functioning people
in there, which I believe yousaid one time, that was probably
the best working, you know, kindof machine we could put in the
tree asked right to ensure thatthings come off smoothly. But
(12:18):
were you aware of that? Or didyou just as as a Navy man as
well? Did you just click intoperformance mode and put all
worry or fears aside? Well,
Don Walsh (12:30):
one way is, you know, when you're training to do
something, or getting ready todo something, we have what you'd
call a skill luck ratio. And youalways want to keep skill, well
beyond 50%. But there's alwaysgoing to be a need for that look
to in there. Yeah. So we have wepractice a long time. You know,
(12:52):
first of all, I came to trust asa qualified submarine officer,
that means I earn my dolphinssame as wings in the Aviators.
And so I did submarines for acouple of years to that point.
They're pretty complicatedthings. And all the systems in
submerging ship noncentral eventhough the ones we were driving
(13:12):
around in we've been actuallybuilt during World War Two
upgraded since then. Butbasically, basic systems, the
engines, the electricity, thecompressed air, all of that were
legacy systems. So I came intosomething that sort of had two
moving parts batha Scaff,because just an underwater
(13:33):
balloon, a one part of theballoon, it's filled with
lighter than substance,petroleum, and got pain relief,
that balloon is a cabin for thepeople. That's it. And I'm not
simplifying, it was different,but not complex. So we had to
learn the differences. So Ispent a lot of time climbing all
(13:54):
over my boiler suit, inside thetank and around all the fittings
and systems and so on. And itwasn't that complicated, that we
took when we took it out to theisland of Guam, to state for the
deepest dive. We lit up aboutsix months before the dive
itself. And we did successivelydeeper test dives, starting the
(14:16):
Harborwalk layer feet, and wejust moved offshore, each dive a
little deeper. And we would, youknow, give it the smoke test,
what's working, what's notworking, what we like what
features we'd like to add, andjust the general feel the
noises, normal noises, thebackground, if you will, the
(14:36):
thing. And so we did 14 testdives. And in fact I think a
week before our deepest dive wedove to 24,000 feet and all
systems are going well. So wedecided we're ready for the
deepest dive so we were prettymuch experience and operating
thing and what the good noiseswere and and things that we and
(15:00):
heard before, then we could givethem our full attention. Like
test pilots, you know that thetreehouse was purchased by the
US Navy's Office of NavalResearch. It was purchased to be
a platform for oceanographersfor scientists. And what what
the Navy wanted us to do firstwas to test it out as
(15:22):
thoroughly, thoroughly as wecould, before it was handed over
to the scientists. Because thescientists don't like adventure.
That's a place you can go. It'sa safe known platform proven
out. And yeah, focus on Israel.
And so the whole thematic of ourdives program in Guam, emphasize
routine that week, but excuseme, we've got to test it out
(15:46):
first before we hand it over toyou. And it's just like a new
airplane, even even a 737 comesout of the Boeing factory, it
gets a pretty rigorous flighttest program. It just roll out
of the factory, Everett,Washington and go straight over
to SeaTac and load passengersfor Atlanta. Yeah, it gets
tested for a period of time,maybe 10 or 12 days. very
(16:07):
elaborate system checks, eventhough it's the 13,007 37 ever
built. They treat it like thefirst time those are test
pilots. Yeah, that's an analogueto talk in our we're doing,
we're not scientists. Yeah.
People say, Well, you didn't doany research. No, we didn't.
We're just trying to make surethe damn thing is reliable, safe
(16:29):
and useful. And we're twoengineers. That was our job. Not
to set a record. In fact, I was.
I was specifically ordered bythe Chief of Naval Operations,
who is the number one Admiral inthe Navy. And he already Burke
those days was highly revered.
In the Navy. Personally, becauseI was in his office, he said,
(16:50):
Walsh, there'll be no publicity.
I said, Yes, sir. He said, if,if you're successful, there'll
be publicity. You're notsuccessful. We're not gonna say
anything. And that's that. Sopeople say, Well, maybe we went
out to set our weekend. That'sit's incident to our primary
mission. When my job to set arecord, my job was to end shocks
(17:10):
to prove out the system beforewe handed it over to the the
scientists. But yeah, we kept itlow key. And the other thing
was, if you look at any of theContemporary Photography at that
time, I myself and LarryShoemaker, Lieutenant Shoemaker,
who was my assistant, are alwaysa uniform, not parade uniform,
(17:33):
working Navy uniform cap, khakishirt and trousers, dolphins,
and rank insignia. We didn'tneed that. We've been much more
comfortable in shorts and a Tshirt because, you know, in
Guam, you're always getting wet,you fall off the top of the bath
scarf into the arbor it's 89degrees. So you just climb back
(17:57):
out and go back to work. It wasnoticed there were more
comfortable ways for us, but theidea was to provide comfort for
them wherever time they look isguys are uniform. I mandated
that I told Larry we've got todo this every time a cameras
pointed as you guys see to USNavy officers. And it's because
(18:18):
it is an Old Navy program. Wedesigned the program we paid for
we own the bath of staff. Wemodified it a hugely before we
could use it for the bonfires.
So this little bit of strategyand tactic service. We had were
(18:40):
permitted not to say anything,we're not permitted to say
anything. Unfortunately, orfortunately, I don't know. I
have put National Geographic gotwind of it. And Life magazine
got wind of it. And the LondonDaily Mail. So yeah, it when
people say you scared or afraid?
No, not really, we test it somuch. We know you're in your
(19:01):
game. But you know, being afraidjust saps your your mental
acuity. That's not good, thenyou're gonna say we're really
paying attention to training andrepetition. We knew what to do.
We knew what normal was andabnormal. And if it came, we
know how to take care of it. Ortry
Thom Pollard (19:23):
to so done the the future of of ocean exploration
or the President actually Ishould say is that the need? It
appears that the need for ahuman being to actually be in
one of these vehicles for lacklack of a better word is
probably not really, I don'teven think they do that anymore,
(19:47):
do they? Or is it don't theysend remote vehicles down now to
do research or
Don Walsh (19:54):
you know this, what you're saying is is quite
correct, but income Please. I dobelieve that unmanned systems
can be far superior to mannedsystems where you're doing dumb
science. I don't mean dumb, asstupid, but dumb where it
(20:14):
doesn't require the presence ofa human, for example, mapping
large tracts of sea floor inhigh precision. You have to have
a vehicle down there. You can doit from a surface ship very
well. But I think there's alsogoing to be some room for manned
submersibles. I Roger Revelle,who was one of the great
(20:39):
oceanographers of the 20thcentury, who was married to
Ellen Scripps, of ScrippsInstitution, and got his he was
one of the first PhDs out ofScripps in the late 30s. And I
asked him the question, I said,Roger, why, why man, Space
Programs diddling with thisperpetually, why not send a
(21:03):
monkey up or, or sending up adrone type thing, automated. And
he looked at me said it didn'tcause he says, because you can't
surprise an instrument. And Ithought, well, that's a lot of
wisdom, their human brain ascapability of adjusting whatever
you're doing at the moment,you're capable of surprised and
(21:25):
figured out what to do next. AndI guess Jim Cameron was even
moreso saying Gemini or somekind of event, we were jointly
talking about our experiences.
And some in the question period,somebody asked him, why man, and
he said, Well, what kid wants togrow up to be a robot? And so on
wisdom? Look at People Magazine,what half century now we buy
(21:47):
that damn thing as well as towhat other people are doing.
Thom Pollard (21:53):
You're listening to my conversation with
legendary explorer andoceanographer Don Walsh, who in
1960, along with Swissoceanographer and explorer
Jacques Picard piloted thebathyscaphe tree just 35,797
feet below the surface of thesea, when it became the first
crewed vessel to reach thebottom of the Mariana Trench,
(22:15):
the deepest point in the Earth'sseabed.
Don Walsh (22:21):
After 62 years, you can imagine how many times I've
been asked, we ever scared? Howdeep did you get to see? What
was it like, tell me about thetree asked, Why don't you begin
with your shoe size when you'regrowing up? A lot of writers you
know, they want me to write thegoddamn dictate the story for
(22:41):
them and put their byline on?
Well, as a writer who earnsmoney doing this, I don't like
to write other people's stories.
As a writer, you can understandthat. And, and so few of them
have taken the time to do theirbackground and the real pros
come prepared. You can tell whenyou're talking to him. And the
(23:04):
real rookies, who apparentlynever got their degree from
journalism school, just want tohave an audience and, and want
me to dictate the story to them.
So they can turn around, puttheir name on it. I detect that
and very resistant, because thatwrote that narrative for that
very reason. Those are all thequestions I've been asked over
(23:27):
six decades, and keep repeatingand repeating, you know, yeah,
rewind the tape, and hit the gobutton. So that's why I wrote
that. So
Thom Pollard (23:39):
to me, that's the golden quote. There's there's no
way to put it into words.
Don Walsh (23:45):
Oh, I know. I asked and Hillary wants and probably
in the same genre, and heprobably rolled his eyes all I
didn't detect it. What did youthink when you got to the top?
And he said, well, that polishesthe bugger off. Now how do I get
down? Yeah. Neil Armstrongmoment?
Thom Pollard (24:01):
Yeah. And well, that might explain a little bit
why Neil Armstrong was not oneknown to attend many events
where people might mock him forto so they could touch the man
who first stepped foot on themoon. It you know, you can only
(24:22):
do a first once in the world.
And you know, the top of Everestand the North Pole, the South
Pole break the speed of sound,the bottom of the ocean. And,
and so, young explorers lookingfor a way to spend whatever
might be a future expedition ina meaningful way given
(24:44):
especially the state of theplanet and the depletion of the
oceans. What's left, what's leftfor the future.
Don Walsh (24:55):
Well, that's a that's a robust theme. A Explorers Club
in Amman explorer. That is, hasit all been found? And of course
it hasn't we can. It'srhetorical question, even the
big ticket items, if you will,first or this or that. So be
(25:17):
careful, you first of all, youhave to set down guidelines of
what what you consider things tobe first up are apt, for example
of the people studying themicrobial life of the hadal
trenches now, excellentscientist in England, Alan
(25:38):
Jamison, who is Mr. Adel trench,you know, because that's 2% of
the ocean floor or the trenches.
Oh, area. And, and that's thereason we've not explored this
deep trenches, adequatelybefore, because 98% of the sea
floor can be seen if you have acapability to work at 20,000
(25:59):
feet or 6000 meters, what a dealor a bean counter, or are people
paying to do exploration andequipment so on, you can design
for just a little over half themaximum depth of the ocean and
have access to 90% of theseafloor. But the hadal zone is
(26:20):
trenches. Most of their 30,000will say it's 25 27,000 to that
maximum 36,000 feet. And so isit worth spending a whole lot of
money? We're only 2%. Well, yes.
But we're just getting on tothat now. So Alan Jameson has
(26:44):
really pioneered is a hadalbiologists remark, and he just
discovering stuff left andright. He's written two books on
it. And so a lot of firststhere. So you have to be
careful, you have to setparameters. So when we're
teenagers, we used to have thestoplight grand praise. You
(27:06):
know, you've been lined up tocars and get across faster than
the guy next year. Only thing ishe didn't know he was a race. He
just drove off normally anyway.
And yeah, I'm first off, and yousaid, you know, you get a
Hispanic speaking Vietnamveteran female with only one leg
(27:26):
climbing Mount Everest. Okay,that's a journey of internal
exploration itself. Yeah, butthe rest of the world who gives
a shit mean? That what's thepurpose to it, in terms of
adding to the Commonwealth ofknowledge of humankind? Zip
(27:47):
zero. That's one of the bigproblems. We have the Explorers
Club when I was on the flag andhonors committee for 14 years.
We you know, we we award flagsto certain expeditions, you got
to have rather a ratherelaborate application to
basically what it all says, Whatare you going to contribute to
(28:08):
science, I feel work. If youstrip out all the crap, crap,
crap on in the application, butyou get adventures and get
explorers, and there's adefinite difference there. A guy
that's doing a paddleboard fromthe Faroe Islands to Tokyo Bay.
That's an adventurer. He's notadding to mankind's knowledge, a
(28:29):
sure mental toughness, physical.
Well, being and all of that, andand it's a it's a journey of
self internal exploration. Areyou really this tough? Do you
have the mental ability, butit's not exploration. And it's
often hard people come in andsay, I have this great idea.
(28:50):
And, okay, but it doesn'tcontribute to science. And the
whole idea is contribution ofthe knowledge of humankind,
through field exploration, ofcourse, the outside world and I,
you know, don't blame them.
Always think all such things areexploring, and they're not. And
you don't want to demean thatpeople do these, I couldn't do
(29:11):
it. I can't claim I have a hardtime climbing over a parking lot
bumped me a speed bumps. Sodon't tell me about climbing. My
low gear has been shot since Iwas born. I can't climb. You
know, these are things I can'tdo. But that doesn't mean I can
tell the difference betweenexploration, discovery. I define
exploration and, and ascuriosity acted upon, and I told
(29:38):
John Glenn that once and he usedit, and Jim Cameron uses it also
as definition exploration. I youknow, I'm not copyright. I'm
just saying that it had legs,right. Everybody's curious.
Thom Pollard (29:55):
I'll be publishing the balance of my interview with
Don Walsh on my podcast calledThe happiness quotient check in
the description for the link tothat. Okay, now the Question for
the Viewers, a good friend ofmine, Mark sinet. He's a New
York Times best selling author,big wall climber and explorer.
We were on Everest together in2019. He has said that an
(30:17):
adventure is when you don't knowthe outcome of your journey. So
the question to you is, if thereis a snafu, or something goes
wrong on an extreme expedition,operated by a company that
hasn't gone through extensivetesting and certifications,
should there be any type ofrescue mounted to try and save
(30:39):
the occupants? Whether that beon land, sea or in space? Let me
know in the comments below, yesor no, I want to hear your
thoughts. And while you'retaking the time to do that, let
me know where you're coming fromtoday. If you like what you've
seen and heard today, I hopeyou'll take a moment to
subscribe to this channel. Andalso think about becoming a
(31:01):
member on this page or myPatreon page to support the work
that I do here. Really, you'llget exclusive content, you can
find my patreon link in thenotes and here on this page,
click the Join button and youcan check out the different
levels of membership. In themeantime, do a kind deed
celebrate the successes ofothers endeavor to make the
(31:23):
world a better place by doing akind deed for somebody you don't
know without looking foranything in return. Be well take
care of yourself. Thank you forbeing here. Have a beautiful
day.
As a little kid I used to dream of being on the
(00:02):
Lewis and Clark expedition whichin 1804, and 1805 explored the
newly purchased western regionsof the United States going up
the Missouri River to thePacific Ocean. I was also
fascinated by the explorers whoendeavored to be the first like
a months and in the race to thenorth and south poles in 1909
and 1911. Chuck Yeager breakingthe speed of sound in 1947, Sir
(00:27):
Edmund Hillary and TenzingNorgay Of course, first to stand
on top of Mount Everest in 1953.
And as a little kid absolutelyindelibly imprinted into my mind
at school watching NeilArmstrong take the first steps
on the moon in 1969, followed byBuzz Aldrin. My guest today was
one of those firsts one of thegreat explorers of our time, he
(00:50):
reached the deepest point in theocean known as Challenger Deep
in 1960. US Navy Lieutenant DonWalsh and Swiss oceanographer
and explorer Jacque Picardpiloted, the bathyscaphe tree
asked 35,797 feet below thesurface of the ocean when it
(01:12):
became the first manned vesselto reach the bottom of the
Mariana Trench, the deepestpoint in the Earth's seabed
given the recent news of theTriton submersible disaster and
the public's voracious appetitefor news about not only what
went wrong on the submersibledisaster, but how a maverick
explorer if you will, likestocked in rush could get away
(01:37):
with skirting so many rules, ifyou will regulations and still
command a ticket price of$250,000 for the opportunity to
become a mission specialist totake it to the bottom of the sea
to visit the wreck of theTitanic that the Titanic is
still claiming victims 111 yearsafter she first sank is actually
(02:01):
a mind boggling intermingling oftime and space, a continuation
of a completely avoidabledisaster that has forever
captivated the minds of millionsof people, including filmmaker
James Cameron, who not onlycreated the blockbuster film,
Titanic, but himself has visitedthe wreck 37 times, many of them
(02:24):
in a submersible that hedesigned my conversation with
the one and only Don Walsh fromhis home in Oregon. Well, it was
two years ago, and at the time,there is no conceivable way we
could have predicted thedisaster on the Titan
submersible. And fittinglyironically, it seems that our
(02:44):
entire conversation is sopertinent to everything that
took place on the submersible, aperfect conversation for the
times we're living in. Now, inthis day and age where all sorts
of extreme tourism tickets arefor sale. Case in point over 470
people paid sometimes over$100,000 for the chance to be
(03:05):
guided up Mount Everest on fixedlines. And this year, 17 people
died on the mountain extremetourism is indeed a dangerous
game. And what about the peoplewho paid $55 million for the
opportunity to go into spacewith SpaceX for $55 million? I
(03:26):
think I'd probably rather wear aBozo the Clown outfit. These are
just the most hideous thingsI've ever seen. It's like, come
on. All right, my opinion aboutwhat those spacesuits look like
has no bearing on thisconversation. Later in the
video, I'm going to ask aquestion that I hope you'll
stick around to answer and it ispertaining to the Everest
(03:48):
mystery channel and myconversation with Don Walsh. Tom
Walsh is my guest today. He isan explorer and adventurer, a
diver an engineer, historian,journalist researcher, you'd
think that Don Walsh might havebeen happy with the
accomplishments of 1960 Going tothe bottom of the ocean, but for
(04:08):
him that was just the beginning.
In 1975, he retired from theNavy to become a professor of
Ocean Engineering at theUniversity of Southern
California, where he founded theInstitute of Marine and Coastal
Studies. He left USC in 1984.
He's authored over 200 OceanRelated Publications spoken
(04:30):
about his work in over 1700public programs he's visited
over 120 countries has been onover 160 cruises, where he has
given lectures about hisexploration and also his
oceanographic knowledge of thepolar regions and beyond. There
is a mountain named for him andAntarctica, where he has visited
(04:52):
over 40 times in 2001. Hereceived the Explorers Club
metal In 2010, he was awardedthe National Geographic
society's highest award, theHubbard medal. Oh, and he has
been to the site of the Titanic,here is my conversation with the
inspiring and ever engaging DonWalsh from his home in
(05:15):
southwestern Oregon. You know,only a few people get the
distinction of being the firstto, if you will, one of the
poles, you know, whether it'sEverest, North Pole, South power
pole, the deepest. And you havethat distinction, you know,
what's it like to go down thatdeep, when one small malfunction
(05:37):
would be? You know, I can't evenimagine the ending how quick it
would be.
Don Walsh (05:47):
Oh, alright, start that you remind me of something
that one of the big takeouts forme and ever since nightshift,
some recognition with the divingwork 62 years ago, was the
people I meet along the way, youalso you have access to a lot of
different people. Not thatthey're seeking you out. But to
(06:09):
get co mingle with them, you'reat the same head table. Because
you have a program and WalterCronkite sitting next to him at
dinner. He's got something elsehe's supposed to be doing. But
you there's a certain normalizedfactor of people who have
attained something. So you don'thave to do the one up stop. They
(06:31):
know who you are, you know whothey are. That's off the table
he just visiting. And I find itvery end. It's not small talk.
So I'm just really serious, likethe future of exploration, stuff
like that, or whatever thecommunal interest is, sometimes
it's totally unexpected, likewhen I was in St. Petersburg,
(06:54):
ending up having lunch withGorbachev, which is six people.
You know, I got up that morning,Joan. And I did and were invited
to lunch by another couple onour ship. She was a former Prime
Minister of Norway during theCold War. And Gorbachev knew
that she was coming to St.
Petersburg. So he says, comehave lunch, we'll talk and in
(07:14):
bring another couple. Well, shedidn't reveal that to us. And so
we get to the restaurant at TheAstoria Hotel in St. Petersburg,
which is the fanciest This isour astera. It's the best in
Petersburg, and the table setfor six. And Joan, talk to you
and who is this? I mean, who'scome as I don't know if Dr.
Brundtland has some valid rightand her husband invited us to we
(07:39):
know this way somebody elselocal. And so pretty soon for
guys walk in the door. You know,we used to characterize them in
the commercial diving world ashaving size 38 collar and a size
two hat. You know, and they'reall kind of their hands in the
waistband and they parkthemselves in the forecourt
because it's the main diningroom. Wow. I thought How far is
(08:01):
it to get under the table if theboat start flying? And then in
comes garbage check with histranslator, Pavel. And I said
many years unwatched, my name isDawn walls. That was the last
thing I said for two hours,which is your order to gather?
(08:21):
Economy a speech is not in myparticular backpack. And just
surprised, and, you know, heshook her hand, but she didn't
say anything. We all sat downand for two hours, eat a little
delivered us oil equate to hisold Cold War, buddy, Dr.
(08:43):
Brundtland, Norway, what could Ihave done better? What will they
put on my tombstone? How can youturn off seven years of
Stalinism by just one presidentof a Soviet Union. And it was
pages of history. It waswonderful. So after the lunch,
(09:03):
Joan and I go back out on thestreet, thought we'd have a
little walk around downtown. Andshe turns to me, she said, you
should know how to take a girlon a lunch date.
That's an example of thenetwork. Oh, we're gonna have
lunch. It's all because I'mgoing to bid on that ship
(09:26):
expedition ship if I hadn't beenthere as a lecture. But I wasn't
lecturing to that particularcruise Dr. Brundtland and
relieved me. She was talkingabout the Cold War in the Baltic
Sea. So we just had to show upfor meals, kind of No, no to
encourage tourism in Russia.
This all comes one thing kind ofknocks onto another it's
(09:46):
amazing. I don't ask for any ofit just happens.
Thom Pollard (09:51):
Truly the most lasting and meaningful aspect of
it all are the humanrelationships that are built
along the way that without it, Imight as well just stay right
here in my house I it thepeople, the cultures, and the
individual relationships thatare formed when you go through a
hardship i can imagine what itmust have been was shock Picard
(10:16):
after you know, I mean that youare that's the essence of
exploration for me is thatpeople who you become friends
with well and
Don Walsh (10:25):
cars to the three Picard siblings. I'm Uncle Don,
what the thing I guess I wantedto mention, that didn't bring it
up. And make it clear is thatafter I did the deepest dive, I
was 28 years old, I realizedthat the same position that the
guy that made the touchdown thatwon the big game, in university
(10:47):
in college, and he sort of dieafter that, rest, your life
didn't count. And I reallydidn't want to be in that
situation. So I, you know, whenI'm going down the polar
regions, I never talk aboutdiving stuff. It's not related,
it's not relevant. Yourrelevance is to where the ship
is what you're going to see whatwe're doing. And I'm an
(11:09):
oceanographer. So my PhD is inoceanography. So I can talk on
oceanography without talkingabout Triest. And so I in those
venues, I never talked abouttres. But what I'm doing
underwater stuff, those venues,I never talked about the polar
regions, but I have these sortof two parallel live streams.
Thom Pollard (11:32):
But when you were down, going down into that, it
it it might as well have beengoing to the moon. And I can't
imagine that you didn't beforeyou actually submerge, knowing
you're going there that likethis could be like your and I
(11:54):
know you had talked about thiscould be the end. I mean, we
could we could not. That's achance we don't make it. But you
had two brains, two smart,young, highly functioning people
in there, which I believe yousaid one time, that was probably
the best working, you know, kindof machine we could put in the
tree asked right to ensure thatthings come off smoothly. But
(12:18):
were you aware of that? Or didyou just as as a Navy man as
well? Did you just click intoperformance mode and put all
worry or fears aside? Well,
Don Walsh (12:30):
one way is, you know, when you're training to do
something, or getting ready todo something, we have what you'd
call a skill luck ratio. And youalways want to keep skill, well
beyond 50%. But there's alwaysgoing to be a need for that look
to in there. Yeah. So we have wepractice a long time. You know,
(12:52):
first of all, I came to trust asa qualified submarine officer,
that means I earn my dolphinssame as wings in the Aviators.
And so I did submarines for acouple of years to that point.
They're pretty complicatedthings. And all the systems in
submerging ship noncentral eventhough the ones we were driving
(13:12):
around in we've been actuallybuilt during World War Two
upgraded since then. Butbasically, basic systems, the
engines, the electricity, thecompressed air, all of that were
legacy systems. So I came intosomething that sort of had two
moving parts batha Scaff,because just an underwater
(13:33):
balloon, a one part of theballoon, it's filled with
lighter than substance,petroleum, and got pain relief,
that balloon is a cabin for thepeople. That's it. And I'm not
simplifying, it was different,but not complex. So we had to
learn the differences. So Ispent a lot of time climbing all
(13:54):
over my boiler suit, inside thetank and around all the fittings
and systems and so on. And itwasn't that complicated, that we
took when we took it out to theisland of Guam, to state for the
deepest dive. We lit up aboutsix months before the dive
itself. And we did successivelydeeper test dives, starting the
(14:16):
Harborwalk layer feet, and wejust moved offshore, each dive a
little deeper. And we would, youknow, give it the smoke test,
what's working, what's notworking, what we like what
features we'd like to add, andjust the general feel the
noises, normal noises, thebackground, if you will, the
(14:36):
thing. And so we did 14 testdives. And in fact I think a
week before our deepest dive wedove to 24,000 feet and all
systems are going well. So wedecided we're ready for the
deepest dive so we were prettymuch experience and operating
thing and what the good noiseswere and and things that we and
(15:00):
heard before, then we could givethem our full attention. Like
test pilots, you know that thetreehouse was purchased by the
US Navy's Office of NavalResearch. It was purchased to be
a platform for oceanographersfor scientists. And what what
the Navy wanted us to do firstwas to test it out as
(15:22):
thoroughly, thoroughly as wecould, before it was handed over
to the scientists. Because thescientists don't like adventure.
That's a place you can go. It'sa safe known platform proven
out. And yeah, focus on Israel.
And so the whole thematic of ourdives program in Guam, emphasize
routine that week, but excuseme, we've got to test it out
(15:46):
first before we hand it over toyou. And it's just like a new
airplane, even even a 737 comesout of the Boeing factory, it
gets a pretty rigorous flighttest program. It just roll out
of the factory, Everett,Washington and go straight over
to SeaTac and load passengersfor Atlanta. Yeah, it gets
tested for a period of time,maybe 10 or 12 days. very
(16:07):
elaborate system checks, eventhough it's the 13,007 37 ever
built. They treat it like thefirst time those are test
pilots. Yeah, that's an analogueto talk in our we're doing,
we're not scientists. Yeah.
People say, Well, you didn't doany research. No, we didn't.
We're just trying to make surethe damn thing is reliable, safe
(16:29):
and useful. And we're twoengineers. That was our job. Not
to set a record. In fact, I was.
I was specifically ordered bythe Chief of Naval Operations,
who is the number one Admiral inthe Navy. And he already Burke
those days was highly revered.
In the Navy. Personally, becauseI was in his office, he said,
(16:50):
Walsh, there'll be no publicity.
I said, Yes, sir. He said, if,if you're successful, there'll
be publicity. You're notsuccessful. We're not gonna say
anything. And that's that. Sopeople say, Well, maybe we went
out to set our weekend. That'sit's incident to our primary
mission. When my job to set arecord, my job was to end shocks
(17:10):
to prove out the system beforewe handed it over to the the
scientists. But yeah, we kept itlow key. And the other thing
was, if you look at any of theContemporary Photography at that
time, I myself and LarryShoemaker, Lieutenant Shoemaker,
who was my assistant, are alwaysa uniform, not parade uniform,
(17:33):
working Navy uniform cap, khakishirt and trousers, dolphins,
and rank insignia. We didn'tneed that. We've been much more
comfortable in shorts and a Tshirt because, you know, in
Guam, you're always getting wet,you fall off the top of the bath
scarf into the arbor it's 89degrees. So you just climb back
(17:57):
out and go back to work. It wasnoticed there were more
comfortable ways for us, but theidea was to provide comfort for
them wherever time they look isguys are uniform. I mandated
that I told Larry we've got todo this every time a cameras
pointed as you guys see to USNavy officers. And it's because
(18:18):
it is an Old Navy program. Wedesigned the program we paid for
we own the bath of staff. Wemodified it a hugely before we
could use it for the bonfires.
So this little bit of strategyand tactic service. We had were
(18:40):
permitted not to say anything,we're not permitted to say
anything. Unfortunately, orfortunately, I don't know. I
have put National Geographic gotwind of it. And Life magazine
got wind of it. And the LondonDaily Mail. So yeah, it when
people say you scared or afraid?
No, not really, we test it somuch. We know you're in your
(19:01):
game. But you know, being afraidjust saps your your mental
acuity. That's not good, thenyou're gonna say we're really
paying attention to training andrepetition. We knew what to do.
We knew what normal was andabnormal. And if it came, we
know how to take care of it. Ortry
Thom Pollard (19:23):
to so done the the future of of ocean exploration
or the President actually Ishould say is that the need? It
appears that the need for ahuman being to actually be in
one of these vehicles for lacklack of a better word is
probably not really, I don'teven think they do that anymore,
(19:47):
do they? Or is it don't theysend remote vehicles down now to
do research or
Don Walsh (19:54):
you know this, what you're saying is is quite
correct, but income Please. I dobelieve that unmanned systems
can be far superior to mannedsystems where you're doing dumb
science. I don't mean dumb, asstupid, but dumb where it
(20:14):
doesn't require the presence ofa human, for example, mapping
large tracts of sea floor inhigh precision. You have to have
a vehicle down there. You can doit from a surface ship very
well. But I think there's alsogoing to be some room for manned
submersibles. I Roger Revelle,who was one of the great
(20:39):
oceanographers of the 20thcentury, who was married to
Ellen Scripps, of ScrippsInstitution, and got his he was
one of the first PhDs out ofScripps in the late 30s. And I
asked him the question, I said,Roger, why, why man, Space
Programs diddling with thisperpetually, why not send a
(21:03):
monkey up or, or sending up adrone type thing, automated. And
he looked at me said it didn'tcause he says, because you can't
surprise an instrument. And Ithought, well, that's a lot of
wisdom, their human brain ascapability of adjusting whatever
you're doing at the moment,you're capable of surprised and
(21:25):
figured out what to do next. AndI guess Jim Cameron was even
moreso saying Gemini or somekind of event, we were jointly
talking about our experiences.
And some in the question period,somebody asked him, why man, and
he said, Well, what kid wants togrow up to be a robot? And so on
wisdom? Look at People Magazine,what half century now we buy
(21:47):
that damn thing as well as towhat other people are doing.
Thom Pollard (21:53):
You're listening to my conversation with
legendary explorer andoceanographer Don Walsh, who in
1960, along with Swissoceanographer and explorer
Jacques Picard piloted thebathyscaphe tree just 35,797
feet below the surface of thesea, when it became the first
crewed vessel to reach thebottom of the Mariana Trench,
(22:15):
the deepest point in the Earth'sseabed.
Don Walsh (22:21):
After 62 years, you can imagine how many times I've
been asked, we ever scared? Howdeep did you get to see? What
was it like, tell me about thetree asked, Why don't you begin
with your shoe size when you'regrowing up? A lot of writers you
know, they want me to write thegoddamn dictate the story for
(22:41):
them and put their byline on?
Well, as a writer who earnsmoney doing this, I don't like
to write other people's stories.
As a writer, you can understandthat. And, and so few of them
have taken the time to do theirbackground and the real pros
come prepared. You can tell whenyou're talking to him. And the
(23:04):
real rookies, who apparentlynever got their degree from
journalism school, just want tohave an audience and, and want
me to dictate the story to them.
So they can turn around, puttheir name on it. I detect that
and very resistant, because thatwrote that narrative for that
very reason. Those are all thequestions I've been asked over
(23:27):
six decades, and keep repeatingand repeating, you know, yeah,
rewind the tape, and hit the gobutton. So that's why I wrote
that. So
Thom Pollard (23:39):
to me, that's the golden quote. There's there's no
way to put it into words.
Don Walsh (23:45):
Oh, I know. I asked and Hillary wants and probably
in the same genre, and heprobably rolled his eyes all I
didn't detect it. What did youthink when you got to the top?
And he said, well, that polishesthe bugger off. Now how do I get
down? Yeah. Neil Armstrongmoment?
Thom Pollard (24:01):
Yeah. And well, that might explain a little bit
why Neil Armstrong was not oneknown to attend many events
where people might mock him forto so they could touch the man
who first stepped foot on themoon. It you know, you can only
(24:22):
do a first once in the world.
And you know, the top of Everestand the North Pole, the South
Pole break the speed of sound,the bottom of the ocean. And,
and so, young explorers lookingfor a way to spend whatever
might be a future expedition ina meaningful way given
(24:44):
especially the state of theplanet and the depletion of the
oceans. What's left, what's leftfor the future.
Don Walsh (24:55):
Well, that's a that's a robust theme. A Explorers Club
in Amman explorer. That is, hasit all been found? And of course
it hasn't we can. It'srhetorical question, even the
big ticket items, if you will,first or this or that. So be
(25:17):
careful, you first of all, youhave to set down guidelines of
what what you consider things tobe first up are apt, for example
of the people studying themicrobial life of the hadal
trenches now, excellentscientist in England, Alan
(25:38):
Jamison, who is Mr. Adel trench,you know, because that's 2% of
the ocean floor or the trenches.
Oh, area. And, and that's thereason we've not explored this
deep trenches, adequatelybefore, because 98% of the sea
floor can be seen if you have acapability to work at 20,000
(25:59):
feet or 6000 meters, what a dealor a bean counter, or are people
paying to do exploration andequipment so on, you can design
for just a little over half themaximum depth of the ocean and
have access to 90% of theseafloor. But the hadal zone is
(26:20):
trenches. Most of their 30,000will say it's 25 27,000 to that
maximum 36,000 feet. And so isit worth spending a whole lot of
money? We're only 2%. Well, yes.
But we're just getting on tothat now. So Alan Jameson has
(26:44):
really pioneered is a hadalbiologists remark, and he just
discovering stuff left andright. He's written two books on
it. And so a lot of firststhere. So you have to be
careful, you have to setparameters. So when we're
teenagers, we used to have thestoplight grand praise. You
(27:06):
know, you've been lined up tocars and get across faster than
the guy next year. Only thing ishe didn't know he was a race. He
just drove off normally anyway.
And yeah, I'm first off, and yousaid, you know, you get a
Hispanic speaking Vietnamveteran female with only one leg
(27:26):
climbing Mount Everest. Okay,that's a journey of internal
exploration itself. Yeah, butthe rest of the world who gives
a shit mean? That what's thepurpose to it, in terms of
adding to the Commonwealth ofknowledge of humankind? Zip
(27:47):
zero. That's one of the bigproblems. We have the Explorers
Club when I was on the flag andhonors committee for 14 years.
We you know, we we award flagsto certain expeditions, you got
to have rather a ratherelaborate application to
basically what it all says, Whatare you going to contribute to
(28:08):
science, I feel work. If youstrip out all the crap, crap,
crap on in the application, butyou get adventures and get
explorers, and there's adefinite difference there. A guy
that's doing a paddleboard fromthe Faroe Islands to Tokyo Bay.
That's an adventurer. He's notadding to mankind's knowledge, a
(28:29):
sure mental toughness, physical.
Well, being and all of that, andand it's a it's a journey of
self internal exploration. Areyou really this tough? Do you
have the mental ability, butit's not exploration. And it's
often hard people come in andsay, I have this great idea.
(28:50):
And, okay, but it doesn'tcontribute to science. And the
whole idea is contribution ofthe knowledge of humankind,
through field exploration, ofcourse, the outside world and I,
you know, don't blame them.
Always think all such things areexploring, and they're not. And
you don't want to demean thatpeople do these, I couldn't do
(29:11):
it. I can't claim I have a hardtime climbing over a parking lot
bumped me a speed bumps. Sodon't tell me about climbing. My
low gear has been shot since Iwas born. I can't climb. You
know, these are things I can'tdo. But that doesn't mean I can
tell the difference betweenexploration, discovery. I define
exploration and, and ascuriosity acted upon, and I told
(29:38):
John Glenn that once and he usedit, and Jim Cameron uses it also
as definition exploration. I youknow, I'm not copyright. I'm
just saying that it had legs,right. Everybody's curious.
Thom Pollard (29:55):
I'll be publishing the balance of my interview with
Don Walsh on my podcast calledThe happiness quotient check in
the description for the link tothat. Okay, now the Question for
the Viewers, a good friend ofmine, Mark sinet. He's a New
York Times best selling author,big wall climber and explorer.
We were on Everest together in2019. He has said that an
(30:17):
adventure is when you don't knowthe outcome of your journey. So
the question to you is, if thereis a snafu, or something goes
wrong on an extreme expedition,operated by a company that
hasn't gone through extensivetesting and certifications,
should there be any type ofrescue mounted to try and save
(30:39):
the occupants? Whether that beon land, sea or in space? Let me
know in the comments below, yesor no, I want to hear your
thoughts. And while you'retaking the time to do that, let
me know where you're coming fromtoday. If you like what you've
seen and heard today, I hopeyou'll take a moment to
subscribe to this channel. Andalso think about becoming a
(31:01):
member on this page or myPatreon page to support the work
that I do here. Really, you'llget exclusive content, you can
find my patreon link in thenotes and here on this page,
click the Join button and youcan check out the different
levels of membership. In themeantime, do a kind deed
celebrate the successes ofothers endeavor to make the
(31:23):
world a better place by doing akind deed for somebody you don't
know without looking foranything in return. Be well take
care of yourself. Thank you forbeing here. Have a beautiful
day.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.