Following is a conversation with professional climber, author and historian Mark Synnott, whose book THE THIRD POLE: MYSTERY OBSESSION AND DEATH ON MOUNT EVEREST has just been released in paperback edition.
The greatest mystery in all of mountaineering and possibly the most debated and discussed in current times just got thicker.
The Mount Everest mystery deepens: Was there an international cover-up of a dead climber's ascent?
https://www.salon.com/2022/04/08/the-third-pole-mount-everest-mark-synnott-mystery-china/
Mark Synnott's website and portal to purchase The Third Pole: Mystery, Obsession, and Death on Mount Everest:
https://www.marksynnott.com/
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Thom Dharma Pollard
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Thom Pollard (00:00):
The following is a conversation with professional
(00:03):
climber, author and historianMark Synnott, whose book the
third pole mystery, obsessionand death on Mount Everest has
just been released in paperbackedition. This is the happiness
quotient, as if the plot couldactually thick in more. The
greatest mystery in all ofmountaineering, and possibly the
(00:27):
most debated and discussed incurrent times just got thicker.
The mystery centers around thefate of George Mallory and Sandy
Ervin, who disappeared high uponMount Everest on June 8 1924.
They were last seen at over28,000 feet, cresting the Great
Northeast ridge going toward thetop. For 75 years their fate
(00:52):
remained completely unknownuntil in 1999. During the search
of the vast North Face. ConradAnker came across the body of
George Mallory at 26,700 feet. Iwas high altitude cameraman on
that expedition. On a second andsuccessive search of the site
where Mallory's body lay myclimbing partner Andy pullets.
(01:16):
And I brought a metal detectorto more thoroughly searched the
site, primarily to look for theKodak vest pocket camera that we
know Mallory or erven wascarrying. We did not find the
camera, nor did we solve themystery of whether Mallory and
Ervin made it to the summit. Infact, the discovery itself
(01:40):
merely served to rich in themystery. Since then, hundreds if
not, 1000s of sleuths havepoured themselves into trying to
solve the mystery surroundingthe fate of Mallory and Irvin
Mark and I returned in 2019 tosearch for Sandy Ervin on a very
hot tip by historian Tom holdsZell with a team of filmmakers
(02:04):
and guide Jamie McGinnis, whohas extensive knowledge about
the Mallory and Irvin mystery,having searched in that area
where they are thought to havedisappeared many times and he
has also spoken to individualswho have claimed to have come
into contact with one or theother body. Our ultimate goal in
(02:28):
2019 was to find the camera ofcourse, in hopes to develop the
film that might or might nothave photographic proof of their
having or not having summited.
Well the plot thickens, as itturns out, the body of Sandi
Ervin and the camera were, infact discovered by the Chinese
as it turns out decades ago, andall but proof of that found its
(02:52):
way to mark Senate after thepublication of his book, and he
is only just releasing thatinformation now. Upon the
publication of the paperbackedition of his book, the third
pole, mystery, obsession anddeath on Mount Everest. Mark's
findings are in the paperbackedition in an addendum and they
(03:15):
also appear in an article insalon this month called the
Mount Everest mystery deepenswas there an international cover
up of a dead climbers ascent?
The link to that article and tomark Senate's webpage where you
can buy the book will be in theliner notes of this episode.
(03:39):
Before we speak with Mark,please subscribe, wherever you
may be listening. Also, it ishugely helpful to the show
itself. If you comment, like andshare this episode with those
you care about. Here's myconversation with Mark Synnott
from his home in New Hampshireon 18. April 2022. You released
(04:03):
an article in in salon onlinerecently that was sort of
revelation if you will that shednew light on the Mallory and
Irvin mystery What the heckhappened it sounds like this is
information that everybody inthe world who has ever given
even half of a care aboutMallory nerve and is right on
(04:26):
top of this. This is like bigstuff so
Mark Synnott (04:31):
I I thought it was but it it didn't like you know,
go viral the way that I thoughtit would a lot of people are
like, whatever. So whathappened? Three, four years of
my life, you know, invested inthis story like yeah, kind of a
big deal. sort of quick synopsisof the story. Well, we went to
(04:56):
Everest you and I in 2019 to tryto solve the mystery of who
really was the first to stand onthe summit of Mount Everest. And
as far as everyone knows, thatwas Tenzing Norgay and Edmund
Hillary in 1953. But, you know,students of Everest history, I
(05:19):
know that there's a chance thatGeorge Mallory and Sandy urban
summited in 1924. Because theywere last seen at 28,200 feet
still going strong for thesummit. And that's only 800 feet
below the top and no one knowsthe story better than than you.
I mean, I was talking about howI've got four years into it,
(05:41):
you've got decades of your life.
Yes. And white obsession? Yeah,kind of, on the one hand, it's
silly, like, Oh, who cares? Butwe care, you know, and the
reason why we care is becauseit's history. It's, it's about
the spirit of adventure. It'sit's about mountaineering, it's
(06:03):
about chomo. Loma, it's, it'sabout a sacred mountain, and it
just kind of gives us an excuseto have our lives revolve around
this cool thing. And we, we all,like, it's pretty easy to be
nihilistic in this in thisworld. And, and deep down I am,
(06:24):
and I figured that out when Iwas really young. And I
realized, okay, like, in orderfor me not to completely lose
the plot, I need to create myown meaning in life, I need to,
like, attach a point importanceto things and care about them
(06:44):
deeply. And that's what's gonnagive me the orientation and, and
direction and purpose that Ineed in life. Because if I just
sit there and existentially tryto figure it out, like there's
nothing actually there, and thisisn't working. And I tried to do
that. So I, so for me, it's it'smountains and adventure. And so
(07:06):
I mean, I'm kind of going off ona tangent here, but a good
tangent, why? This is why peoplelike you and I, we, we care
about this, we care about thisstory so much. And so in 2019,
we, we we use this question tolaunch this whole expedition, to
(07:30):
go with this new research to tryto find the remains of Sandy
Ervin and the camera. And thatinvolved me going out to these
GPS coordinates in the yellowband. And I think I left the fix
ropes at like 27,700 feet anddid kind of like this
(07:52):
adventurous little mission outto what we call the wholesale
spot, which was all based onresearch by our our friend
Everest historian, Tom Possehl.
And it was you and I, in radon,we all decided that the the
(08:13):
Intel was pretty solid enough sothat we were willing to risk our
lives to see if we could figurethis out to see if Sandy was
there. And I got to those GPScoordinates. And that's one of
the most wild things I've everdone. And he wasn't there. And
you know, we had heard a fewrumors going into it that
(08:36):
hey, Chinese already foundSandy. And they found the camera
and it was just really like, atfirst we did hear that
officially we heard that beforethe trip, but it was just very
much rumor and innuendo. Therewas nothing backing it up. So we
were like, okay, yeah, no,that's not really a thing. Then,
you know, so we came home, and Ispent a year or more writing
(08:59):
this book. And it just and I wasgoing in deep and doing so many
interviews and background andresearch and reading. And it
like it kept popping up. And Idon't want to exaggerate. But I
think I could say you know, justoffhand maybe like six different
separate sources, who weren'tgetting it from each other who
(09:23):
are all saying the same thing.
Oh, the Chinese already foundthe body. And so in in the book,
I wrote it up. Hey, here's,here's what I'm hearing here.
Here's what might have happened.
The Chinese might have foundfound the body. So, but it was
just pure rumor and I had no Ihad no proof. But after the
(09:45):
expedition, someone who wants toremain anonymous, this is
actually another anonymousperson. There's a lot of people
who don't want to get on thewrong side of the Chinese and
the Chinese government But thisperson who had contacts with the
Chinese Tibet MountaineeringAssociation, told our guide,
(10:09):
Jamie McGinnis, and this is inmy book. Yeah, it's not rumor.
This actually really did happen.
I heard about this after theexpedition after I was working
on the book. And so I said,Well, I'm going to go to the
ctma. And I'm going to interviewthem. And I'm going to ask them
point blank. And, and Icommunicated with the ctma. And
I told them, hey, I want to askyou some stuff about Alan and
(10:32):
Ervin. And I was communicatingwith the I think the director
and through an intermediary, andthey said, okay, yes, sure, you
should come. And I had planetickets. I had a whole plan. I
had reservations to go and seepandas in Sichuan Province.
That's how I was gonna go in Iwas gonna go through Chengdu and
(10:52):
then take the train to Lhasa.
And then I started hearing aboutthis novel Coronavirus. I mean,
this is in February of 2020.
Yeah. And you know, whathappened? China shut down. I
haven't been able to make itincense. It's been closed ever
since. So two years later, twoplus years later, it's still
(11:13):
closed Americans, no one isgoing to China.
Thom Pollard (11:18):
And no one's on Everest other than nationals
there.
Mark Synnott (11:21):
So the book comes out. And this guy contacts me
and he, and he says, Oh, hey, Ihave information about the
camera. And I've been sitting onit all these years, because I
wanted to write about it. I wasgonna write my own book about
it. But I never got around toit. And I'm not actually a
(11:44):
writer. And I think you're theguy. And I think you should do
it. And you should tell thestory. And the story is that the
Chinese did find the camera in1975. On the second expedition
to the North Face of China. Andthe reason we know this is
(12:05):
because in a meeting at theChina Mountaineering Association
in Beijing, in 1984. There was adiplomat from the British
Embassy at that meeting. And awoman named Pan Pan Tao, who was
(12:26):
the first Chinese woman to climbEverest and the second woman to
climb Everest summiting 11 daysafter Junko to buy Japan, in
1975. She told this guy pointblank, we found a body at 8200
meters. And it had a camera. Andwe brought that camera home. And
(12:51):
they tried to develop the filmand it didn't turn out. Diplomat
wrote a memo. He's a diplomat,so trained in the British
Foreign Service. You write amemo, I do this now I write
memos. And like, official, solike, somebody can look at it
later and be like, Oh, okay,that actually really happened.
(13:14):
That's the story. I wrote it upas a postscript from my book,
and then I excerpted that insalon. Honestly, I thought that
someone else, you know, there'ssort of obvious other
publications that could have ranwith this story. And nobody
wanted to do it. And then salondid and so I'm really thankful
(13:38):
to them. And I, you know, put itout there when you and I think
it's a big deal. I mean, Ishouldn't be downplaying it, but
people are breaking down mydoor. No one. No one's called me
for an interview. You're thefirst one.
Thom Pollard (13:51):
So, so this is this is essentially what that
means. First of all, that'samazing. And we had heard
rumors, we even tried to callsomebody from the car Jamie got
somebody on the phone aboutanother body, not Mallory's
body. And that gentleman hung upon us if you recall, we weren't
(14:13):
recording. Of course, no memowas written either after that.
But if they find a body in 1975at 8200 meters, that's about our
that's probably 1000 1200 feethigher than where Mallory's body
was found in 1999. So that wouldleave us to speculate or know
(14:39):
for certain that that was SandyUrban's body. Right because
Mallory's body the way it was in1999 was so frozen in in the
position that he obviously diedin. I can't see them discarding
the body and throwing it downand having it land. So seemingly
(15:00):
Did you know
Mark Synnott (15:01):
there were there were three people who had died
on Everest, as of 75. Yeah,well, actually four because
there was a member of theChinese expedition who doesn't,
who disappeared. I believethere's other people who know
this better way better than melike Jose well, and mostly Jakob
(15:25):
homelab. But there was MauriceWilson was the British mystic.
And he never made it to theNorth Pole. So he so we know
that he wasn't up in, you know,the death zone.
Thom Pollard (15:37):
We found one of his bones, by the way, in 1999,
in advanced base camp, andsomebody just threw it back into
the glacier, it was death andfound parts of his tent. That's
basically kind
Mark Synnott (15:47):
of where he was.
So couldn't be him. Yeah. Andthen, and then there was a
Chinese climber who died duringthat expedition. But that's like
a modern thing. And they knewabout that he was one of their
team members. In terms of olddead bodies, there's only two
Maori in urban. We know whereMallory was found, eventually,
right? We have GPS coordinatesfor that spot. That spot was not
(16:11):
at at 200 meters, it was morelike 8000 meters by 6000s, or no
26 750 6700. So whatever thatnumber works out to. The main
thing is that that location wasway off the route. And the
(16:36):
testimony from Penn Tao, theyweren't out wandering around,
like wine. Kong ball, who foundMaori also, in 1975, right.
That's, that's the groundworkfor, like all of wholesales work
(16:58):
and your Ken Ham lab for thediscovery that you guys made in
1999. In in 1970, so wind hangBo went way off. And there was a
lot of analysis done in terms ofwhere that was. That's not what
Panda was talking about. Theywere on their summit climb, they
were on the route, there's a setplace where we know that is that
(17:21):
her testimony, from 1975,matches up with shushing
testimony from 1964, when hetook the shortcut down, we're
talking up in the yellow bandhere. So now, you know, today,
after you guys made thediscovery in 1999, we can say
(17:44):
that the body that pan Tao isdescribing was not Maori. So it
had to be urban. And they alsosaid that they found a camera.
And so people can, you know,sort of make their own
(18:04):
assessment, you know, as to whatwe have here. Personally, I, I
think I can say with a fairamount of certainty that we were
on a complete wild goose chase.
And that there was that werisked our lives for no reason.
I do believe that the Chinesefound the camera, part of the
(18:29):
panned out testimony is that notonly that they have it, but that
they had it in a Chinese museum.
And I did some homework on that.
And, and one that, by the way,fit in with the rumor from other
sources that I had heard. I didsome research and I think I
(18:50):
figured out what that museummight be. That's the next step.
Whether it's me or someone elsegoes to that museum. I, I quite
sure that it's not sitting outon display know the camera we're
talking about. And if it'shidden away somewhere, I doubt
(19:11):
they're gonna pull it out and belike, oh, yeah, actually. But I
did kind of secretly have thishope. Where it could be
something, you know, where like,you go to the director of the
museum, and you say, hey, like,you know, here's the testimony.
Here's what we've heard. Do youthink maybe this might be hidden
back somewhere in some storagelocker at some vault and that
(19:33):
you guys forgot about it? Youknow, let's take a look. And
like, oh, wow, you know what,here it is? Here's the camera.
And, you know, that would bepretty cool. People have been
looking for it for 100 years.
I'm sure you're well aware thatwe're coming up on the 100th
anniversary, and famous Mallorynerve and disappearance and you
(19:54):
know that the 1924 expedition,I'm Sure, there's going to be
things going on with that.
It would be really cool, youknow, to go to that museum and
to find out that that's like thelast little bit, but the other
part about, you know, going tothe base of the north face with
(20:15):
drones and like looking aroundfor the body and provide us and
stuff like that, like, I don't,I personally don't think that
that, that any of that reallymakes sense anymore. This, you
know, from my perspective, andI, I think at this point, you
know, there's not a lot ofpeople who have gone deeper into
(20:36):
this than I have, there are,there are some, but you know,
you're in MLM, for example, andyourself. But I did go to the
spot, you know, to the wholesalespot. And I would not personally
put any more time and effortinto looking for the camera on
the mountain. That deal is done.
And so I feel like that's in theend in the final analysis.
(20:56):
That's the contribution, youknow, that you and I have made
to this story, which I think issignificant. And I feel like we
did figure something out. Andthe coolest part about it, is
that it sort of it, it just sortof makes permanent, the mystery.
(21:17):
And it, I think it it just sortof solidifies the idea that the
mystery will endure. And maybewe know what happened to the
camera, and that it was actuallydiscovered the film's gone. It
didn't turn out really is what Ithink. And so we're never going
(21:37):
to know, we're never going toknow, and there's always going
to be that slight chance thatthey did it. And I personally
would never say that theydidn't. Because it's sort of
like saying, you know, that Goddoesn't exist? Like, who knows?
I'm not saying he does, either.
(22:02):
But it's that that might be alittle bit of a stretch there
that that could, you know,possibly be a step too far. But
how can we say that they didn'tdo it? There's just no way to?
To know for sure. And it's thatlittle kernel? Of, of maybe that
(22:23):
stirs the imagination, you know,like it like it has, you know,
for both you and I and so I lovethe idea that that's that that's
where it's ended. And, and we'lland we'll never know. And so the
mystery is gonna go on and onand on. That is so
Thom Pollard (22:39):
awesome. So real quick question that that kind of
puts an end to the the body ofErvin being at 8200 meters. So
that body does it does thelocation of that? And are you
aware of where it was at 81 8200meters? Can you determine if he
(23:01):
was using the ridge route to thetop? Or if he was going along
the face? Is there anythingthere? And then what did they do
with the body? Did they discardit? Is it theoretical? That they
did throw him down and he landedin wholesale spot? Or is is he
not even worth looking foranymore? And is he over the
cangshan face for instance?
Mark Synnott (23:24):
Um, they said that they had Tao said that they
buried the body under somerocks. And I guess one thing
that I haven't done, this ismore of like a wholesale type
thing or somebody or you coulddo it is to look at the Chinese
route, which I think is prettyclose to the standard route and
(23:45):
figure out what 8200 meters is.
And I think what you'll see isit's terrain that has been
crossed over every which way bya lot of people, you know,
climbers, but also people whohave been searching and you
know, Jake Norton and all of hisareas, expeditions and Adrian
Ballenger. You know, yourself.
(24:11):
And you know, Tom, Paulette, and
Thom Pollard (24:14):
Andy. Right, Andy and yeah,
Mark Synnott (24:17):
in the various like, Sherpa expeditions that
have done, you know, their theirown searches. So, I think I
think we all agree, I know Jakesees it this way that there's
there's nowhere else to look atit. It was sort of at this point
(24:40):
where if the body was there,somebody would have found it.
And so, so I think at somepoint, the body was removed. And
what I think that would looklike, is basically just kind of
tumbling it down the mountaininto the abyss. I feel Like,
that's kind of what the Chinesewould do not not that they would
(25:03):
do it in a disrespectful way,but that they're, you know,
there's an effort underway, asyou well know, to clean them out
not and to not have so many deadbodies laying all over the
place. It's, it's unseemly, andit's not really what anyone
wants to see. And so both sidesof the mountain, there's efforts
(25:24):
that are being made to, to cleanit up in that respect to it, and
it's pretty much impossible tobring bodies down from up there.
It's just not, it's not, it'snot possible. So that's a lot of
the bodies there. I think theyfound the body in 1975, I think
they found the camera, I thinkthey brought the camera home, I
(25:47):
think they tried to develop thefilm, and it didn't turn out.
And then for whatever reason,and then and then for a while
there, it was just kind of athing that wasn't being talked
about, but but it was it wastalked about that that body was
up there by numerous members ofthe 1960 and the 1975
expedition. And there's noreason why they would just make
(26:09):
that up. Now, so that so that'sbeen my, my book, a real thing.
And at some point, the body waseither flushed off the mountain
naturally by an avalanche orpushed out of the way or moved
in, maybe move. But then once itwasn't, you know, kind of frozen
in it was washed away by anavalanche or the wind. And so I
(26:32):
think the body's gone, you know,the body without, without the
camera, which potentially wouldhave this evidence that could
change history, like it shouldbe left alone at this point. I
mean, if if we can say that,that the camera's not there,
then there's no reason anymoreto look for it. And so I think
that that deal is done.
Thom Pollard (26:51):
That's that's pretty cool. That's decisive.
And yeah, so a lot a lot ofelements of the mystery will
keep people looking and there'sthe seeds the kernels of, of pop
opportunity for another sleuthwho's out there interested in
finding, getting to the bottomof it. Yeah, because if that
film is destroyed, obviously,it'd be cool to see to have that
(27:14):
camera and return it to theSummerville family. Right,
because ostensibly, it wasHoward Somerville, his camera,
that would be pretty cool. Soyeah, and you don't even have to
climb for that you just have toget to China and go into that
some dusty old back room andhave them pull out all the
amidst all their other artifactsand things
Mark Synnott (27:34):
that I hope I will be. I hope I'll be that guy.
Cool. And, you know, one thingthat's working in my favor apart
the fact that I sort of pulledthe lid back on a fair bit of
stuff, but the third poll isbeing translated into Chinese.
And so it will be read overthere and I feel like in some
(27:58):
way shape or form that has to beyou know, giving the whole story
a stamp of approval. Yeah, Iknow opens up I will endeavor to
go and, and to see if the cameramight actually be there. And
that would be that would be acool and maybe I don't know is
(28:18):
there such a thing as like apostscript to a postscript?
Thom Pollard (28:23):
Yeah, PPS, write that at the end of a letter or
an email. If you'd like to learnmore about Mark sinet, or
purchase the hardcover orpaperback copy of the third
poll, Mark's website is thatMark synnott.com Wherever you're
listening, please subscribe tothis podcast or if you're
(28:45):
watching us on YouTube do thesame. If you share it, comment
and like it that will help usimmensely. join my mailing list
Tom dot dharma.pollard@gmail.comthis is the happiness quotient.
Thank you for visiting. I willsee you all real soon.
The following is a conversation with professional
(00:03):
climber, author and historianMark Synnott, whose book the
third pole mystery, obsessionand death on Mount Everest has
just been released in paperbackedition. This is the happiness
quotient, as if the plot couldactually thick in more. The
greatest mystery in all ofmountaineering, and possibly the
(00:27):
most debated and discussed incurrent times just got thicker.
The mystery centers around thefate of George Mallory and Sandy
Ervin, who disappeared high uponMount Everest on June 8 1924.
They were last seen at over28,000 feet, cresting the Great
Northeast ridge going toward thetop. For 75 years their fate
(00:52):
remained completely unknownuntil in 1999. During the search
of the vast North Face. ConradAnker came across the body of
George Mallory at 26,700 feet. Iwas high altitude cameraman on
that expedition. On a second andsuccessive search of the site
where Mallory's body lay myclimbing partner Andy pullets.
(01:16):
And I brought a metal detectorto more thoroughly searched the
site, primarily to look for theKodak vest pocket camera that we
know Mallory or erven wascarrying. We did not find the
camera, nor did we solve themystery of whether Mallory and
Ervin made it to the summit. Infact, the discovery itself
(01:40):
merely served to rich in themystery. Since then, hundreds if
not, 1000s of sleuths havepoured themselves into trying to
solve the mystery surroundingthe fate of Mallory and Irvin
Mark and I returned in 2019 tosearch for Sandy Ervin on a very
hot tip by historian Tom holdsZell with a team of filmmakers
(02:04):
and guide Jamie McGinnis, whohas extensive knowledge about
the Mallory and Irvin mystery,having searched in that area
where they are thought to havedisappeared many times and he
has also spoken to individualswho have claimed to have come
into contact with one or theother body. Our ultimate goal in
(02:28):
2019 was to find the camera ofcourse, in hopes to develop the
film that might or might nothave photographic proof of their
having or not having summited.
Well the plot thickens, as itturns out, the body of Sandi
Ervin and the camera were, infact discovered by the Chinese
as it turns out decades ago, andall but proof of that found its
(02:52):
way to mark Senate after thepublication of his book, and he
is only just releasing thatinformation now. Upon the
publication of the paperbackedition of his book, the third
pole, mystery, obsession anddeath on Mount Everest. Mark's
findings are in the paperbackedition in an addendum and they
(03:15):
also appear in an article insalon this month called the
Mount Everest mystery deepenswas there an international cover
up of a dead climbers ascent?
The link to that article and tomark Senate's webpage where you
can buy the book will be in theliner notes of this episode.
(03:39):
Before we speak with Mark,please subscribe, wherever you
may be listening. Also, it ishugely helpful to the show
itself. If you comment, like andshare this episode with those
you care about. Here's myconversation with Mark Synnott
from his home in New Hampshireon 18. April 2022. You released
(04:03):
an article in in salon onlinerecently that was sort of
revelation if you will that shednew light on the Mallory and
Irvin mystery What the heckhappened it sounds like this is
information that everybody inthe world who has ever given
even half of a care aboutMallory nerve and is right on
(04:26):
top of this. This is like bigstuff so
Mark Synnott (04:31):
I I thought it was but it it didn't like you know,
go viral the way that I thoughtit would a lot of people are
like, whatever. So whathappened? Three, four years of
my life, you know, invested inthis story like yeah, kind of a
big deal. sort of quick synopsisof the story. Well, we went to
(04:56):
Everest you and I in 2019 to tryto solve the mystery of who
really was the first to stand onthe summit of Mount Everest. And
as far as everyone knows, thatwas Tenzing Norgay and Edmund
Hillary in 1953. But, you know,students of Everest history, I
(05:19):
know that there's a chance thatGeorge Mallory and Sandy urban
summited in 1924. Because theywere last seen at 28,200 feet
still going strong for thesummit. And that's only 800 feet
below the top and no one knowsthe story better than than you.
I mean, I was talking about howI've got four years into it,
(05:41):
you've got decades of your life.
Yes. And white obsession? Yeah,kind of, on the one hand, it's
silly, like, Oh, who cares? Butwe care, you know, and the
reason why we care is becauseit's history. It's, it's about
the spirit of adventure. It'sit's about mountaineering, it's
(06:03):
about chomo. Loma, it's, it'sabout a sacred mountain, and it
just kind of gives us an excuseto have our lives revolve around
this cool thing. And we, we all,like, it's pretty easy to be
nihilistic in this in thisworld. And, and deep down I am,
(06:24):
and I figured that out when Iwas really young. And I
realized, okay, like, in orderfor me not to completely lose
the plot, I need to create myown meaning in life, I need to,
like, attach a point importanceto things and care about them
(06:44):
deeply. And that's what's gonnagive me the orientation and, and
direction and purpose that Ineed in life. Because if I just
sit there and existentially tryto figure it out, like there's
nothing actually there, and thisisn't working. And I tried to do
that. So I, so for me, it's it'smountains and adventure. And so
(07:06):
I mean, I'm kind of going off ona tangent here, but a good
tangent, why? This is why peoplelike you and I, we, we care
about this, we care about thisstory so much. And so in 2019,
we, we we use this question tolaunch this whole expedition, to
(07:30):
go with this new research to tryto find the remains of Sandy
Ervin and the camera. And thatinvolved me going out to these
GPS coordinates in the yellowband. And I think I left the fix
ropes at like 27,700 feet anddid kind of like this
(07:52):
adventurous little mission outto what we call the wholesale
spot, which was all based onresearch by our our friend
Everest historian, Tom Possehl.
And it was you and I, in radon,we all decided that the the
(08:13):
Intel was pretty solid enough sothat we were willing to risk our
lives to see if we could figurethis out to see if Sandy was
there. And I got to those GPScoordinates. And that's one of
the most wild things I've everdone. And he wasn't there. And
you know, we had heard a fewrumors going into it that
(08:36):
hey, Chinese already foundSandy. And they found the camera
and it was just really like, atfirst we did hear that
officially we heard that beforethe trip, but it was just very
much rumor and innuendo. Therewas nothing backing it up. So we
were like, okay, yeah, no,that's not really a thing. Then,
you know, so we came home, and Ispent a year or more writing
(08:59):
this book. And it just and I wasgoing in deep and doing so many
interviews and background andresearch and reading. And it
like it kept popping up. And Idon't want to exaggerate. But I
think I could say you know, justoffhand maybe like six different
separate sources, who weren'tgetting it from each other who
(09:23):
are all saying the same thing.
Oh, the Chinese already foundthe body. And so in in the book,
I wrote it up. Hey, here's,here's what I'm hearing here.
Here's what might have happened.
The Chinese might have foundfound the body. So, but it was
just pure rumor and I had no Ihad no proof. But after the
(09:45):
expedition, someone who wants toremain anonymous, this is
actually another anonymousperson. There's a lot of people
who don't want to get on thewrong side of the Chinese and
the Chinese government But thisperson who had contacts with the
Chinese Tibet MountaineeringAssociation, told our guide,
(10:09):
Jamie McGinnis, and this is inmy book. Yeah, it's not rumor.
This actually really did happen.
I heard about this after theexpedition after I was working
on the book. And so I said,Well, I'm going to go to the
ctma. And I'm going to interviewthem. And I'm going to ask them
point blank. And, and Icommunicated with the ctma. And
I told them, hey, I want to askyou some stuff about Alan and
(10:32):
Ervin. And I was communicatingwith the I think the director
and through an intermediary, andthey said, okay, yes, sure, you
should come. And I had planetickets. I had a whole plan. I
had reservations to go and seepandas in Sichuan Province.
That's how I was gonna go in Iwas gonna go through Chengdu and
(10:52):
then take the train to Lhasa.
And then I started hearing aboutthis novel Coronavirus. I mean,
this is in February of 2020.
Yeah. And you know, whathappened? China shut down. I
haven't been able to make itincense. It's been closed ever
since. So two years later, twoplus years later, it's still
(11:13):
closed Americans, no one isgoing to China.
Thom Pollard (11:18):
And no one's on Everest other than nationals
there.
Mark Synnott (11:21):
So the book comes out. And this guy contacts me
and he, and he says, Oh, hey, Ihave information about the
camera. And I've been sitting onit all these years, because I
wanted to write about it. I wasgonna write my own book about
it. But I never got around toit. And I'm not actually a
(11:44):
writer. And I think you're theguy. And I think you should do
it. And you should tell thestory. And the story is that the
Chinese did find the camera in1975. On the second expedition
to the North Face of China. Andthe reason we know this is
(12:05):
because in a meeting at theChina Mountaineering Association
in Beijing, in 1984. There was adiplomat from the British
Embassy at that meeting. And awoman named Pan Pan Tao, who was
(12:26):
the first Chinese woman to climbEverest and the second woman to
climb Everest summiting 11 daysafter Junko to buy Japan, in
1975. She told this guy pointblank, we found a body at 8200
meters. And it had a camera. Andwe brought that camera home. And
(12:51):
they tried to develop the filmand it didn't turn out. Diplomat
wrote a memo. He's a diplomat,so trained in the British
Foreign Service. You write amemo, I do this now I write
memos. And like, official, solike, somebody can look at it
later and be like, Oh, okay,that actually really happened.
(13:14):
That's the story. I wrote it upas a postscript from my book,
and then I excerpted that insalon. Honestly, I thought that
someone else, you know, there'ssort of obvious other
publications that could have ranwith this story. And nobody
wanted to do it. And then salondid and so I'm really thankful
(13:38):
to them. And I, you know, put itout there when you and I think
it's a big deal. I mean, Ishouldn't be downplaying it, but
people are breaking down mydoor. No one. No one's called me
for an interview. You're thefirst one.
Thom Pollard (13:51):
So, so this is this is essentially what that
means. First of all, that'samazing. And we had heard
rumors, we even tried to callsomebody from the car Jamie got
somebody on the phone aboutanother body, not Mallory's
body. And that gentleman hung upon us if you recall, we weren't
(14:13):
recording. Of course, no memowas written either after that.
But if they find a body in 1975at 8200 meters, that's about our
that's probably 1000 1200 feethigher than where Mallory's body
was found in 1999. So that wouldleave us to speculate or know
(14:39):
for certain that that was SandyUrban's body. Right because
Mallory's body the way it was in1999 was so frozen in in the
position that he obviously diedin. I can't see them discarding
the body and throwing it downand having it land. So seemingly
(15:00):
Did you know
Mark Synnott (15:01):
there were there were three people who had died
on Everest, as of 75. Yeah,well, actually four because
there was a member of theChinese expedition who doesn't,
who disappeared. I believethere's other people who know
this better way better than melike Jose well, and mostly Jakob
(15:25):
homelab. But there was MauriceWilson was the British mystic.
And he never made it to theNorth Pole. So he so we know
that he wasn't up in, you know,the death zone.
Thom Pollard (15:37):
We found one of his bones, by the way, in 1999,
in advanced base camp, andsomebody just threw it back into
the glacier, it was death andfound parts of his tent. That's
basically kind
Mark Synnott (15:47):
of where he was.
So couldn't be him. Yeah. Andthen, and then there was a
Chinese climber who died duringthat expedition. But that's like
a modern thing. And they knewabout that he was one of their
team members. In terms of olddead bodies, there's only two
Maori in urban. We know whereMallory was found, eventually,
right? We have GPS coordinatesfor that spot. That spot was not
(16:11):
at at 200 meters, it was morelike 8000 meters by 6000s, or no
26 750 6700. So whatever thatnumber works out to. The main
thing is that that location wasway off the route. And the
(16:36):
testimony from Penn Tao, theyweren't out wandering around,
like wine. Kong ball, who foundMaori also, in 1975, right.
That's, that's the groundworkfor, like all of wholesales work
(16:58):
and your Ken Ham lab for thediscovery that you guys made in
1999. In in 1970, so wind hangBo went way off. And there was a
lot of analysis done in terms ofwhere that was. That's not what
Panda was talking about. Theywere on their summit climb, they
were on the route, there's a setplace where we know that is that
(17:21):
her testimony, from 1975,matches up with shushing
testimony from 1964, when hetook the shortcut down, we're
talking up in the yellow bandhere. So now, you know, today,
after you guys made thediscovery in 1999, we can say
(17:44):
that the body that pan Tao isdescribing was not Maori. So it
had to be urban. And they alsosaid that they found a camera.
And so people can, you know,sort of make their own
(18:04):
assessment, you know, as to whatwe have here. Personally, I, I
think I can say with a fairamount of certainty that we were
on a complete wild goose chase.
And that there was that werisked our lives for no reason.
I do believe that the Chinesefound the camera, part of the
(18:29):
panned out testimony is that notonly that they have it, but that
they had it in a Chinese museum.
And I did some homework on that.
And, and one that, by the way,fit in with the rumor from other
sources that I had heard. I didsome research and I think I
(18:50):
figured out what that museummight be. That's the next step.
Whether it's me or someone elsegoes to that museum. I, I quite
sure that it's not sitting outon display know the camera we're
talking about. And if it'shidden away somewhere, I doubt
(19:11):
they're gonna pull it out and belike, oh, yeah, actually. But I
did kind of secretly have thishope. Where it could be
something, you know, where like,you go to the director of the
museum, and you say, hey, like,you know, here's the testimony.
Here's what we've heard. Do youthink maybe this might be hidden
back somewhere in some storagelocker at some vault and that
(19:33):
you guys forgot about it? Youknow, let's take a look. And
like, oh, wow, you know what,here it is? Here's the camera.
And, you know, that would bepretty cool. People have been
looking for it for 100 years.
I'm sure you're well aware thatwe're coming up on the 100th
anniversary, and famous Mallorynerve and disappearance and you
(19:54):
know that the 1924 expedition,I'm Sure, there's going to be
things going on with that.
It would be really cool, youknow, to go to that museum and
to find out that that's like thelast little bit, but the other
part about, you know, going tothe base of the north face with
(20:15):
drones and like looking aroundfor the body and provide us and
stuff like that, like, I don't,I personally don't think that
that, that any of that reallymakes sense anymore. This, you
know, from my perspective, andI, I think at this point, you
know, there's not a lot ofpeople who have gone deeper into
(20:36):
this than I have, there are,there are some, but you know,
you're in MLM, for example, andyourself. But I did go to the
spot, you know, to the wholesalespot. And I would not personally
put any more time and effortinto looking for the camera on
the mountain. That deal is done.
And so I feel like that's in theend in the final analysis.
(20:56):
That's the contribution, youknow, that you and I have made
to this story, which I think issignificant. And I feel like we
did figure something out. Andthe coolest part about it, is
that it sort of it, it just sortof makes permanent, the mystery.
(21:17):
And it, I think it it just sortof solidifies the idea that the
mystery will endure. And maybewe know what happened to the
camera, and that it was actuallydiscovered the film's gone. It
didn't turn out really is what Ithink. And so we're never going
(21:37):
to know, we're never going toknow, and there's always going
to be that slight chance thatthey did it. And I personally
would never say that theydidn't. Because it's sort of
like saying, you know, that Goddoesn't exist? Like, who knows?
I'm not saying he does, either.
(22:02):
But it's that that might be alittle bit of a stretch there
that that could, you know,possibly be a step too far. But
how can we say that they didn'tdo it? There's just no way to?
To know for sure. And it's thatlittle kernel? Of, of maybe that
(22:23):
stirs the imagination, you know,like it like it has, you know,
for both you and I and so I lovethe idea that that's that that's
where it's ended. And, and we'lland we'll never know. And so the
mystery is gonna go on and onand on. That is so
Thom Pollard (22:39):
awesome. So real quick question that that kind of
puts an end to the the body ofErvin being at 8200 meters. So
that body does it does thelocation of that? And are you
aware of where it was at 81 8200meters? Can you determine if he
(23:01):
was using the ridge route to thetop? Or if he was going along
the face? Is there anythingthere? And then what did they do
with the body? Did they discardit? Is it theoretical? That they
did throw him down and he landedin wholesale spot? Or is is he
not even worth looking foranymore? And is he over the
cangshan face for instance?
Mark Synnott (23:24):
Um, they said that they had Tao said that they
buried the body under somerocks. And I guess one thing
that I haven't done, this ismore of like a wholesale type
thing or somebody or you coulddo it is to look at the Chinese
route, which I think is prettyclose to the standard route and
(23:45):
figure out what 8200 meters is.
And I think what you'll see isit's terrain that has been
crossed over every which way bya lot of people, you know,
climbers, but also people whohave been searching and you
know, Jake Norton and all of hisareas, expeditions and Adrian
Ballenger. You know, yourself.
(24:11):
And you know, Tom, Paulette, and
Thom Pollard (24:14):
Andy. Right, Andy and yeah,
Mark Synnott (24:17):
in the various like, Sherpa expeditions that
have done, you know, their theirown searches. So, I think I
think we all agree, I know Jakesees it this way that there's
there's nowhere else to look atit. It was sort of at this point
(24:40):
where if the body was there,somebody would have found it.
And so, so I think at somepoint, the body was removed. And
what I think that would looklike, is basically just kind of
tumbling it down the mountaininto the abyss. I feel Like,
that's kind of what the Chinesewould do not not that they would
(25:03):
do it in a disrespectful way,but that they're, you know,
there's an effort underway, asyou well know, to clean them out
not and to not have so many deadbodies laying all over the
place. It's, it's unseemly, andit's not really what anyone
wants to see. And so both sidesof the mountain, there's efforts
(25:24):
that are being made to, to cleanit up in that respect to it, and
it's pretty much impossible tobring bodies down from up there.
It's just not, it's not, it'snot possible. So that's a lot of
the bodies there. I think theyfound the body in 1975, I think
they found the camera, I thinkthey brought the camera home, I
(25:47):
think they tried to develop thefilm, and it didn't turn out.
And then for whatever reason,and then and then for a while
there, it was just kind of athing that wasn't being talked
about, but but it was it wastalked about that that body was
up there by numerous members ofthe 1960 and the 1975
expedition. And there's noreason why they would just make
(26:09):
that up. Now, so that so that'sbeen my, my book, a real thing.
And at some point, the body waseither flushed off the mountain
naturally by an avalanche orpushed out of the way or moved
in, maybe move. But then once itwasn't, you know, kind of frozen
in it was washed away by anavalanche or the wind. And so I
(26:32):
think the body's gone, you know,the body without, without the
camera, which potentially wouldhave this evidence that could
change history, like it shouldbe left alone at this point. I
mean, if if we can say that,that the camera's not there,
then there's no reason anymoreto look for it. And so I think
that that deal is done.
Thom Pollard (26:51):
That's that's pretty cool. That's decisive.
And yeah, so a lot a lot ofelements of the mystery will
keep people looking and there'sthe seeds the kernels of, of pop
opportunity for another sleuthwho's out there interested in
finding, getting to the bottomof it. Yeah, because if that
film is destroyed, obviously,it'd be cool to see to have that
(27:14):
camera and return it to theSummerville family. Right,
because ostensibly, it wasHoward Somerville, his camera,
that would be pretty cool. Soyeah, and you don't even have to
climb for that you just have toget to China and go into that
some dusty old back room andhave them pull out all the
amidst all their other artifactsand things
Mark Synnott (27:34):
that I hope I will be. I hope I'll be that guy.
Cool. And, you know, one thingthat's working in my favor apart
the fact that I sort of pulledthe lid back on a fair bit of
stuff, but the third poll isbeing translated into Chinese.
And so it will be read overthere and I feel like in some
(27:58):
way shape or form that has to beyou know, giving the whole story
a stamp of approval. Yeah, Iknow opens up I will endeavor to
go and, and to see if the cameramight actually be there. And
that would be that would be acool and maybe I don't know is
(28:18):
there such a thing as like apostscript to a postscript?
Thom Pollard (28:23):
Yeah, PPS, write that at the end of a letter or
an email. If you'd like to learnmore about Mark sinet, or
purchase the hardcover orpaperback copy of the third
poll, Mark's website is thatMark synnott.com Wherever you're
listening, please subscribe tothis podcast or if you're
(28:45):
watching us on YouTube do thesame. If you share it, comment
and like it that will help usimmensely. join my mailing list
Tom dot dharma.pollard@gmail.comthis is the happiness quotient.
Thank you for visiting. I willsee you all real soon.
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