Sanctity Of Space - A film about the alchemy of landscape and people amidst the mountains of Alaska
A conversation with co-directors Renan Ozturk and Freddie Wilkinson about the decade long journey of creating the film, from concept to completion
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Thom Dharma Pollard
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Thom Pollard (00:00):
The following is my conversation with Freddy
(00:02):
Wilkinson and Renan Ozturk codirectors of the documentary
film sanctity of space. Itpremieres in 13 theaters across
the United States. This week,I'm honored to have these two
here to talk to me at the sametime, I can barely get one of
them locked down, let alone twoat the same time, I will be
(00:24):
sharing with you a zoominterview that I did with them
may 9 2022, about how the filmcame together, about their
obsession with the toothtraverse in Alaska, which rises
up out of the great gorge, andalso of their admiration for the
great Bradford Washburn, apioneer in aerial photography.
(00:48):
He's known as the modern dayfounder of the Boston Museum of
Science. He mapped Everest, theGrand Canyon, and even Squam
Lake here in beautiful NewHampshire. This film is a
beautiful testament to thepioneers that came before us,
and inspired us as Mountaineersand climbers, Renard and Freddy
(01:09):
dropped by my cabin and Jackson,I think it was about 10 years
ago to the year to look throughall the photographs, letters,
information and volumes ofvideotape recordings I had done
with Bradford dating back to our2000 expedition in Alaska
together, and previouslyincluding his aerial footage, 35
(01:33):
millimeter film footage fromNational Geographic doing aerial
surveys in Alaska. It's abeautiful film, a beautiful
testament. And as I explained itto the two of them, it really
felt like it was a film aboutlove, about respect about the
admiration not only of themountains, but the people who
inspire us to go there. And asthey both said, it's truly about
(01:57):
sharing that love of themountains and expanding it to
anyone who might be interestedor curious about learning more,
let's take a look of a shortclip of this gorgeous teaser.
Freddie Wilkinson (02:09):
For young climbers, the big challenge is
finding any blank spots that areleft.
Renan Ozturk (02:18):
We're launching,
3rd Climber (02:20):
it's not just going up and getting something done.
They're tying their whole lifeinto the hole climb.
Freddie Wilkinson (02:36):
I was just looking for inspiration. I kept
on circling back to the moosestooth in Brad Washburn photos,
4th Voice (02:43):
is the greatest aerial mountain photographer of
all time.
Renan Ozturk (02:57):
When you discover a big climb that's never been
done. It kind of feels likefalling in love.
Thom Pollard (03:10):
Before I get to the interview with Freddie and
Renard, I ask that you pleasesubscribe, wherever you're
watching, whether it's onYouTube, or listening to the
podcast, and share this withanybody that might be
interested, and especiallypeople that you care about. It
means a lot and it helps get itout there to others who might
also be interested. And now tomy May 9 2022 interview with
(03:31):
Freddie Wilkinson and RenanOzturk, co directors of sanctity
of space.
Renan Ozturk (03:37):
Go for it Freddie.
Freddie Wilkinson (03:39):
The film is so it officially released in LA
in New York last Friday. Oh,gotcha. Gotcha. But now it's
this Friday, it's opening inabout like 15 cities
Thom Pollard (03:51):
you run on and Freddie it to get you guys in
the same room, technically, ispretty awesome. I think the last
time even though this isvirtual. The last time we were
in the same room literallytogether was in the early stages
of sanctity of space. I think itdidn't have a name yet back
(04:13):
then. And you came up to thecabin in Jackson. And my dog was
walking all over those hugeprints of Brad Washburn and you
went through all the tapes. Sothat so just memorizing that
that's about 10 years ago, thisproject is a long time coming
it's got to feel good to be hereat the essentially the sunrise
(04:35):
of of letting the world see itfinally,
Freddie Wilkinson (04:38):
absolutely.
It's been a bit a long journeyfor both of us and but good to
be here.
Thom Pollard (04:46):
Yeah, well tell me about it. So if somebody had
never heard about it and didn'teven know who you guys were,
what is this film about? I mean,we know as a climber the the
mousses traverse is going to doDraw a lot of people in. But if
I were to say what the subplotis, it's a lot about love and,
(05:07):
and mountains and friendships,and the inspiration that brings
one to go to those places. So ifyou could just tell me a little
bit about it, and what inspiredyou to really almost, you know,
kind of devote yourselves,sacrifice yourselves to seeing
this thing come to reality.
Renan Ozturk (05:28):
Yeah, I mean, I, I just want to also, just thank
you, Tom, because you're a hugepart of this film. In so many
ways. You knew Washburn,personally, and contributed
footage and a lot of the ethosto this film has, has you inside
(05:52):
it as well. So thanks. Thank youthere. And I think for us like
the, the quick elevator pitch ofthis, this film is, has to do
with answering the question ofwhy, like, why do you do these
things? Why do you? Why doclimbers go into the mountains
(06:15):
and risk their lives? And it's acheesy question. And as you
know, Mallory's famous responselike because it's there, this
was our this was our reallypersonal response that took us a
long time to come out with that.
Hopefully, the answer is, iswithin the alchemy of visuals
and the history of Washburn. Andyou can kind of like get a sense
(06:40):
of what, what it is without evenwithout even having to answer
it, because like, definitelywon't be able to put it into
words right now.
Thom Pollard (06:51):
Well, it's a beautiful film. And if you were
just to put pretty music on inthe background and watch it
without even the narrative, it'sa good, entertaining watch. And
I will admit readily that in thelast hour, I haven't been able
to consume the hour and 40minutes of it. But it's
beautifully done. And Renard, Ithink you nailed it. It's, it's
(07:15):
what calls us to the mountains.
And a lot of it is thatinspiration. And you even said,
it's when you see a mountainthat you want to climb, it's
like falling in love. And I waslike, Well, I don't think I've
ever heard that before. But Iknew it. The minute I heard you
say it, I was like, exactly.
And, and there's a passion inthere to risk it all. And it
(07:40):
comes out in this film. And soit way back, you showed me this
beautiful clip, that wasessentially a recreation of
Bradford Washburn flying up overthe Alaska range and the great
gorge with his old FairchildCamera. Can you tell me a little
bit about that? And was Did youknow how that was really going
(08:03):
to be integrated into the film?
Are we doing a mini vignette forthat?
Freddie Wilkinson (08:07):
You know, to backtrack a little bit and, you
know, kind of just underlinesome of the things. Renata was
saying, Tom, you know, when wewere pitching part of the pitch
for the film was that, you know,a lot of the storytelling with
mountain climbing and adventureinevitably ends up sort of
spiraling around death. Andthese life and death stakes that
(08:34):
engender a self seriousness thatlike, to me doesn't always look
that good, or that interesting,as a spectator viewer audience.
And as as storytellers andparticipants, it's like, well,
let's talk about how beautifulit is not how scared we are,
(08:56):
because we're going to themountains, you know, we're not
going at gunpoint, we're notgetting drafted. We're not going
there to make the world a betterplace, the way you know,
firefighters and you know,social activists, and so many
other people do in other linesof work. It's a privilege to go
(09:17):
to the mountain. And we do itbecause it's stinking beautiful
and special in that right. And Idon't know, but somehow for me,
that was just a message I wantedto try to convey.
Thom Pollard (09:33):
You did you did it. And so when of as a
filmmaker, which both of you areand as a climber, how do you do
that? How do you tell thatstory? Honestly, I mean, from a
serious question. From an idea.
It sounds great when you're inbase camp, waiting out a storm
drinking coffee, this would begreat to have beautiful film on
a screen in a movie See, youknow, really that's where the
(10:01):
grind comes in. That's thesuffer fest right there perhaps
right?
Freddie Wilkinson (10:06):
I mean, 10 years, 10 years, but it was
something that, you know, itreally started for us. When the
climb ended. We, we, you know,as shown in the film, we got
totally sucked in by the totraverse, in the course of doing
(10:28):
it, we, we had this idea, let'stry to try to capture it from
the air. And, you know, now thatRon on especially is really a
world famous adventurefilmmaker, it seems like, you
know, probably natural to someof your listeners that he would
have a helicopter following himaround. But 15 years ago, that
(10:50):
wasn't the case. And you know,as a matter of fact, this was
probably the first time he hadever played with helicopters,
either of us had played be like,tried to do cinematography. So,
you know, we had to put our ownskin in the game, like we didn't
have sponsor money, I think weeach put up like eight or 10
(11:12):
grand. And we had, we did haveFernando's production company
providing some some logisticssupport, and, you know, a
producer who would kind of takecalls to make us seem
professional, but we basicallyit all came down to one day. And
you know, we had a, you know,helicopter, camera attack
(11:34):
equipment, all has to getlocated in Tel kitna. And, you
know, we couldn't affordanymore. And so, you know, we
just kind of went into thisattitude, like, you know, we're
just going to roll the dice andsee what happens. And it just,
you know, ended up that we're inthe, in the midst of the first
(11:58):
ascent on the day and theweather aligned, and all of it
came together. And, you know,when we got back, we didn't know
any of that was happening at thetime. We were in the middle of
this pretty epic climb, we sawthe helicopter spinning
overhead. There were some cloudskind of around us, but it was
(12:18):
like, Oh, that's cool. Hopefullythey got something and then you
know, we did the climb takes afew days to pack up your base
camp, get back to civilization,we get back to civilization, and
they're at the airport in theair taxi office is the hard
drive of the capture of from thefrom the helicopter that day.
(12:41):
And I remember like plugging itinto a laptop and looking at it
for the first time. And beinglike, you know, well, all btw
that's, that's pretty epic. Andthen like a split second later.
I was like, it looks just like abrad Washburn photo. And, you
(13:01):
know, 10 years later, here weare. But Ron has some
perspective on this too, aswell.
Renan Ozturk (13:08):
Yeah, meant a lot to us to like try to try to film
something on an actual firstascent, you see a lot of that
kind of Hollywood stylefilmmaking kind of all. It all
comes back to your otherquestion of like the recreations
and everything like that. Wejust want to want it to show the
range the way that Brad wouldand had had people understand
(13:30):
what it was like for him back inthe early days of hanging out
open door of an airplane and the50s. And we realized that we
needed to, we needed to have acreative way to show that so
that that shoot was prettyintentional. It was like, also
(13:50):
very seat of our pants in termsof how it, how it came together.
In terms of even even the cameraused for the shoot was a was
actually Brad's camera from whatwas the name of the museum
Friday.
Freddie Wilkinson (14:05):
Museum of the North. University Alaska
Fairbanks.
Renan Ozturk (14:09):
Fairbanks. Yeah, and they wouldn't. Brad had
donated the camera before hedied to the museum and he had
asked for it back a few times.
They wouldn't give it to him forsome reason. We convinced them
that we were going to hang itover the range one last time and
give it a swan song. And yeah,it was just all those little
little pieces as what it takesto like make this longer, longer
(14:32):
film and like Freddy put inyears of archival research
digitizing tapes, includingyours for the first time so that
they could be in this format.
The whole story of Lucania a lotof that stuff was digitized for
(14:52):
the first time the shots of Bradwith the sifting the mud through
his hands before they take offOn the mudflats using a cocktail
bar as makeshift skis in thebottom of the plane with a
history of Alaska aviation. Soyeah, there's there's a lot of
stories within within thetapestry of the of the whole
(15:14):
film. But overall it's, it'slike, I think for us it's meant
to, to show why we do it and thejoy and the beauty but also the
spirit of exploration and, and aframe of reference around what
is the spirit of exploration.
And for Brad, it was the sharingof it and not just the
(15:36):
conquering of these things. Buthow can future generations
benefit for what he brought backand continue to inspire and use
that footage for conservation orunderstanding? And yeah, it was
really just an ODE, an ode tothat exploration is sharing.
Thom Pollard (15:57):
That's fantastic.
That is Brad and for sure. Thesharing of it. Tell me a little
bit about the mooses traversefor those who don't know, and I
guess this was a Freddy secretfor years and you let it slip
after having a couple of beersone night with Ron on and his
friends. And then this thiswhole legend of the mooses
(16:19):
traverse took shape. But but itstill took a few years. Can you
explain that to me? And let usknow what you know, give us a
visual of it if you can'tactually see it?
Freddie Wilkinson (16:30):
Sure, absolutely. So everybody's heard
of Denali. Very few people haveheard of the great gorge of the
roof glacier, which is just tothe south of Denali, but it's
some of the most tremendoustopography. In North America, if
(16:51):
not the world. It's a muchbigger Canyon than the Grand
Canyon, it is the you know, thelargest canyon feature in North
America. And, but the bottomhalf of it is covered with ice,
and so that you have 5000 footbig walls, dropping from
(17:15):
glaciated summits into theglacier, but then they continue
another, you know, three to 4000feet below the surface of the
glacier. And the moose is to isreally more than one specific
mountain like you might imaginein a picture. It's a very
(17:36):
tangled, complicated web ofpeaks, that occupies one side of
that gorge. And, you know, it'sjust a place of deep, you know,
energy, not to get touchy feely,but I think lots of climbers and
and pilots, all sorts of folkshave been to the gorge and felt
(18:02):
its, its majesty, and it's cold.
And so yeah, the tooth traverse,you know, I had been there as a
young climber, renowned Zach andI all three of us kind of
migrate, you know, found thegorge separately in our early
20s. And, as we we, you know,made our way through through
climbing and we kind of startedto get to know each other a
(18:26):
little bit, kind of climbtogether separately. And yeah,
I'm, I've never been good atkeeping my mouth shut about
projects. I would love to saythat it's completely born of
this altruistic, you know,desire to share, as we sort of
(18:47):
expressed in the film, but it'sprobably just because I got a
loose mouth and I like to talkand jaw and you know, so I'm
like, here's what I'm thinkingabout. And, you know, such was
the case one night in Boulder. Ithink it was 2009 when I was
there visiting, staying with Ronand Zach's house, and I knew
(19:10):
they had a trip plan to Alaska.
And it was like, Oh, you gottayou gotta try this thing.
Thom Pollard (19:18):
So one thing, the scene that I really love in this
is, is that the reality of lifekind of hits. And so Zack, who
was supposed to be with you,basically, it kind of got a job
and just said, Dude, my lifeneeds to move forward and in in
(19:39):
this trajectory right now. Somaybe regrettably, you guys went
off to do it. And I felt likethere's something very poignant
in that because we are veryprivileged to be able to go off
on adventures like this. And andwe risk and spend so much time
and money as well. Got to dothese things. Usually, at least
(20:03):
the people that I've spent mytime with, fully aware that this
is not normal. And we've and weare, there's a lot of humility.
And you guys, you are twoexamples of humble people, we
have to have big enough egos togo after crap like that. But But
reality sets in and you got towork, right? So there's that
(20:25):
shot of him wrapping theChristmas lights around taking
them down from a house orputting them up. And it was
like, whoa. So if you can justcomment about like that, I love
that scene I just knocked meover every time.
Renan Ozturk (20:41):
I'm glad that you picked up on that, because that
was a big sub story. For us asZach was such a, he's such a
purist. And as you as you learnmore and more about, about
climbers, and people who goafter these mountains, there's,
(21:03):
there's like kind of differentforms of it. There's like the
Washburn's who are likeprofessionals. And they're
getting big sponsors likeNational Geographic and things
like, like some of the biggestpublications on Earth supporting
these things. And that comeswith a price of like, what
(21:24):
you're what you're deliveringand sharing from that. And then
there's some climbers who don'thave that self promotional bone
in their body, and they justwant to do it for the complete
purity of the experience. Andthey separate those two lives.
And that was Zach. And we reallywanted to, to lay that bare and
(21:44):
not try to hide, hide what thatis, so people can can see the
realities of it. And, yeah, kindof, we still have a great
relationship with Zach. And theirony of it all is that we
suffered for years and basicallywent into debt trying to make
(22:05):
the film while while his youknow, Christmas light business
ended up exploding and he wasdoing these massive jobs
basically retired now like, he'slike a billionaire. That yeah,
just kidding on the billionairepart. But you know, he's, he
just done like super well. Andhe's, he's found his own path in
(22:27):
the mountains. And, and we've,for a lot of times, we wanted to
make the film more about abouthim, and we thought he was a
stronger character to drive it.
And there's, there's a lot ofpaths you go down making a film.
But in the end, Zack played areally important role, not only
in climbing the mountain, butalso like giving that
(22:51):
counterpoint to what what isadventure, what is meaning in
the mountains, and it'sdifferent for different people.
Obviously, for us, it was moreof a Washburn style, where we
just love the creative aspect.
And it's hard to separate thecreative aspect from the climate
(23:12):
self, but it's not for everyone.
Thom Pollard (23:15):
Thank you. That's a great explanation and follow
up to my question if it even wasa question, but so let's just
talk about Brad Washburn realquick. So I'll do an
introduction to this interview.
But, but for those listening,Brad is credited as the modern
day founder of the Boston Museumof Science who also happen to do
(23:35):
13 first ascents in Alaska. AndAnsel Adams called him the great
aerial photographer, the greatmountain for aerial photographer
of mountains perhaps and, and soBrad passed away in oh seven at
96. So we're looking at hisfirst National Geographic
(23:56):
adventurer, sponsored sponsoredexpedition to do aerials, I
think in 1936. So we're talkingalmost 100 years ago, and Brad
was truly breaking ground. Andas you said, he his driving
force was to share the knowledgethat he gained by being in the
(24:17):
mountains, encouraging people togo to the mountains. And one
little thing to add in that ofall the great accomplishments of
Brad's life to a tee everysingle time you ask them, what's
the greatest accomplishment inyour life and he's always would
say, number one, I marriedBarbara. Always 100% of the
(24:38):
time, never. That was numberone. Everything else came after.
So with that said, that's apretty big inspiration. He
inspired a lot of people and youare making him you know, another
Iraq God, if you will, in termsof how you're paying homage to
(24:58):
Uh, so if you could just talk alittle bit about Brad.
Freddie Wilkinson (25:03):
Yeah, sure. I mean, he's his, it's an honor
to, you know, get to make a filmabout him and, you know, getting
to explore his network. All theplaces he left his his
fingerprints is it's justfascinating and really pulled me
(25:26):
in and, you know, it's reallyhow I connected with you, I
think. You know, you'll probablysay this in the intro, but Tom
was kind of Washburn's firstdocumentarian. You know, in a
way back when he was stillalive, you shot with him quite
extensively and did a trip toAlaska with him. And, and your
(25:49):
footage is, is heavily featuredin our film, really, so, so
thank you for all that. Yeah,huge, you know, so how we made a
movie about Washburn was just,you know, standing on the
shoulders of everybody who, youknow, he had inspired and
connected with, and, you know,we have astronauts and, you
(26:16):
know, fine art photographers,supporting voices in the film
writers. David. Yeah. DavidRoberts. And great, great
mountaineering and adventurewriter. And a lot of a lot of
neat people. So, yeah, althoughI never had a chance to meet
(26:38):
him, you know, myself. I alwaysI liken him to sort of a real
life Indiana Jones figure,because he had the Boston Museum
of Science who was his day job,he wore a suit and tie and, you
know, shook hands with importantpeople. And, and then on the
(26:58):
weekend, he put on his fedora,and go hang out the door of an
airplane. And, and, you know, Imean, growing up as a kid, I
loved Indiana Jones.
Thom Pollard (27:09):
It's a natural run on so in terms of the Washburn
connection he was he was trulyremarkable person of that
generation. And I know we'refriends and everything but but
you I look at you as like,you're, you're the modern day,
(27:31):
you know, have the eye and havethat that artistic photographer
and filmmaker that probably Bradwould have liked to be in terms
of the pictures and images thatyou've created. you've flown
drones and done dramatic timelapses up to the summit of Mount
Everest from many 1000s of feetbelow. So in terms of the
(27:53):
beautiful things you've createdwith Freddy as your partner in
this Gosh, man, you're you'redoing someone like Brad Washburn
a heck of a lot of justice, andI'm sure his family and
relatives are just gonna gushover this.
Renan Ozturk (28:08):
Yeah, it's crazy.
Spirit of Washburn is strong. WeI never met him personally,
either, but yeah, so he's so soahead of his time and his, you
know, those, those giant eightby 10 negatives are gonna stand
the test of time. There's stillnot a lot of modern cameras that
(28:28):
that can touch it. And it'syeah, it's it's going to remain
inspiration for like a lot ofgenerations to come.
Thom Pollard (28:41):
So I know you guys both have to go in a short bit
so let let me ask you and I'llhopefully do justice to
introducing the film. You guyspursued this career hard and you
paid the price along the waywasn't always not that you know,
it's all you know, glory and redcarpet or anything, even though
(29:04):
we look forward to the redcarpet of this film, but you pay
the price because you believe sostrongly in what you want to do
in your life. This is aboutpursuing and going after what
you truly love and what's inyour heart and you're not
willing to do anything otherthan that despite if you will
(29:26):
the collateral damage of goingafter it a lot of couches a lot
a lot of tuna casserole fordinner and, and things like
that. So am I am I on targetwith that? Have you guys truly
like you really do epitomizepeople just believing in in
(29:46):
ones, if you will, directive anddoing it no matter what.
Freddie Wilkinson (29:53):
I say it all.
Thank you, I think Could we, youknow, it feels more like it, you
know, it was just this thiscreative process that we started
without really knowing whatwe're getting into, you know,
with this one, and you know, itgot kind of felt like it kept
(30:17):
getting harder and harder thecloser we got, I think, and but
it also, you know, there'ssomething that I think was nice
and that, you know, if we hadtaken, say that proverbial, you
know, check from a sponsor sixyears ago, or eight years ago
(30:40):
and finish the movie real quick.
You know, I'm not I'm not sureif it would have, you know, had
the time to kind of marinateand, and, you know, get to where
it is,
Thom Pollard (30:55):
or not, yeah, yes, there was some thick and thick
times as Freddy was justreferring to, right.
Renan Ozturk (31:02):
Yeah, no, it definitely almost fell apart
multiple times. And it was itwas not easy to have this
passion project is always in thebackground, trying to figure out
how to move it along. You know,it was I yeah, I don't think a
lot of people realize just the,how a lot some of these
(31:25):
documentaries that you see,maybe they're funded from the
beginning, and that's your fulltime job. But Freddie and I both
had multiple other full timejobs. And Friday, we're starting
a family with two little ones.
And it's a lot to bring afeature documentary to fruition.
But yeah, I think it's it islike, this is the moment where
(31:48):
it all it all kind of coalesces,and you finally have people like
yourself, getting to see it, andthen then like mainstream,
things like the New York Times,and The Wall Street Journal and
The Guardian are reviewing it,which is just surreal. And the
way that it seems like all theaudiences, everyone that's
(32:14):
watched, it picks up on onsomething different. And we
think that we think that this isgoing to be a meaningful
contribution in the tapestry ofall these different powerful
climbing films and explorationfilms in its own way. And
hopefully it will have this likelong slow burn that kind of
(32:35):
lasts, and does justice to likethat question that we were
talking about, like, what's themeaning to it all and, and even
the context of the last fewyears as how exploration has
changed. And now both Freddieand myself and all of us as a
(32:58):
community, we're like, oh, it'sit's about way more than just
ourselves and these kind ofwhite guy explorations, these
privileged white guyexplorations and what can we do
in the future and we hope thatsome of this footage can be used
for conservation purposes andcontinue to be used by Denali
National Park for education andyeah, there's, there's a lot a
(33:22):
lot there that hopefully willwill live on, beyond just the
adventure of the tooth traverse.
That's all tied into the ethosof of Washburn from the
beginning.
Thom Pollard (33:37):
Freddie Renard, thank you for taking the time to
tell us about your film. In theliner notes of this video or
podcast episode will be links towhere you can find out more
about sanctity of space on theirFacebook page on a landing page
for their website and alsotheaters where you might be able
to go see it yourself. Thank youfor visiting the happiness
(33:59):
quotient. I will see you allreal soon.
The following is my conversation with Freddy
(00:02):
Wilkinson and Renan Ozturk codirectors of the documentary
film sanctity of space. Itpremieres in 13 theaters across
the United States. This week,I'm honored to have these two
here to talk to me at the sametime, I can barely get one of
them locked down, let alone twoat the same time, I will be
(00:24):
sharing with you a zoominterview that I did with them
may 9 2022, about how the filmcame together, about their
obsession with the toothtraverse in Alaska, which rises
up out of the great gorge, andalso of their admiration for the
great Bradford Washburn, apioneer in aerial photography.
(00:48):
He's known as the modern dayfounder of the Boston Museum of
Science. He mapped Everest, theGrand Canyon, and even Squam
Lake here in beautiful NewHampshire. This film is a
beautiful testament to thepioneers that came before us,
and inspired us as Mountaineersand climbers, Renard and Freddy
(01:09):
dropped by my cabin and Jackson,I think it was about 10 years
ago to the year to look throughall the photographs, letters,
information and volumes ofvideotape recordings I had done
with Bradford dating back to our2000 expedition in Alaska
together, and previouslyincluding his aerial footage, 35
(01:33):
millimeter film footage fromNational Geographic doing aerial
surveys in Alaska. It's abeautiful film, a beautiful
testament. And as I explained itto the two of them, it really
felt like it was a film aboutlove, about respect about the
admiration not only of themountains, but the people who
inspire us to go there. And asthey both said, it's truly about
(01:57):
sharing that love of themountains and expanding it to
anyone who might be interestedor curious about learning more,
let's take a look of a shortclip of this gorgeous teaser.
Freddie Wilkinson (02:09):
For young climbers, the big challenge is
finding any blank spots that areleft.
Renan Ozturk (02:18):
We're launching,
3rd Climber (02:20):
it's not just going up and getting something done.
They're tying their whole lifeinto the hole climb.
Freddie Wilkinson (02:36):
I was just looking for inspiration. I kept
on circling back to the moosestooth in Brad Washburn photos,
4th Voice (02:43):
is the greatest aerial mountain photographer of
all time.
Renan Ozturk (02:57):
When you discover a big climb that's never been
done. It kind of feels likefalling in love.
Thom Pollard (03:10):
Before I get to the interview with Freddie and
Renard, I ask that you pleasesubscribe, wherever you're
watching, whether it's onYouTube, or listening to the
podcast, and share this withanybody that might be
interested, and especiallypeople that you care about. It
means a lot and it helps get itout there to others who might
also be interested. And now tomy May 9 2022 interview with
(03:31):
Freddie Wilkinson and RenanOzturk, co directors of sanctity
of space.
Renan Ozturk (03:37):
Go for it Freddie.
Freddie Wilkinson (03:39):
The film is so it officially released in LA
in New York last Friday. Oh,gotcha. Gotcha. But now it's
this Friday, it's opening inabout like 15 cities
Thom Pollard (03:51):
you run on and Freddie it to get you guys in
the same room, technically, ispretty awesome. I think the last
time even though this isvirtual. The last time we were
in the same room literallytogether was in the early stages
of sanctity of space. I think itdidn't have a name yet back
(04:13):
then. And you came up to thecabin in Jackson. And my dog was
walking all over those hugeprints of Brad Washburn and you
went through all the tapes. Sothat so just memorizing that
that's about 10 years ago, thisproject is a long time coming
it's got to feel good to be hereat the essentially the sunrise
(04:35):
of of letting the world see itfinally,
Freddie Wilkinson (04:38):
absolutely.
It's been a bit a long journeyfor both of us and but good to
be here.
Thom Pollard (04:46):
Yeah, well tell me about it. So if somebody had
never heard about it and didn'teven know who you guys were,
what is this film about? I mean,we know as a climber the the
mousses traverse is going to doDraw a lot of people in. But if
I were to say what the subplotis, it's a lot about love and,
(05:07):
and mountains and friendships,and the inspiration that brings
one to go to those places. So ifyou could just tell me a little
bit about it, and what inspiredyou to really almost, you know,
kind of devote yourselves,sacrifice yourselves to seeing
this thing come to reality.
Renan Ozturk (05:28):
Yeah, I mean, I, I just want to also, just thank
you, Tom, because you're a hugepart of this film. In so many
ways. You knew Washburn,personally, and contributed
footage and a lot of the ethosto this film has, has you inside
(05:52):
it as well. So thanks. Thank youthere. And I think for us like
the, the quick elevator pitch ofthis, this film is, has to do
with answering the question ofwhy, like, why do you do these
things? Why do you? Why doclimbers go into the mountains
(06:15):
and risk their lives? And it's acheesy question. And as you
know, Mallory's famous responselike because it's there, this
was our this was our reallypersonal response that took us a
long time to come out with that.
Hopefully, the answer is, iswithin the alchemy of visuals
and the history of Washburn. Andyou can kind of like get a sense
(06:40):
of what, what it is without evenwithout even having to answer
it, because like, definitelywon't be able to put it into
words right now.
Thom Pollard (06:51):
Well, it's a beautiful film. And if you were
just to put pretty music on inthe background and watch it
without even the narrative, it'sa good, entertaining watch. And
I will admit readily that in thelast hour, I haven't been able
to consume the hour and 40minutes of it. But it's
beautifully done. And Renard, Ithink you nailed it. It's, it's
(07:15):
what calls us to the mountains.
And a lot of it is thatinspiration. And you even said,
it's when you see a mountainthat you want to climb, it's
like falling in love. And I waslike, Well, I don't think I've
ever heard that before. But Iknew it. The minute I heard you
say it, I was like, exactly.
And, and there's a passion inthere to risk it all. And it
(07:40):
comes out in this film. And soit way back, you showed me this
beautiful clip, that wasessentially a recreation of
Bradford Washburn flying up overthe Alaska range and the great
gorge with his old FairchildCamera. Can you tell me a little
bit about that? And was Did youknow how that was really going
(08:03):
to be integrated into the film?
Are we doing a mini vignette forthat?
Freddie Wilkinson (08:07):
You know, to backtrack a little bit and, you
know, kind of just underlinesome of the things. Renata was
saying, Tom, you know, when wewere pitching part of the pitch
for the film was that, you know,a lot of the storytelling with
mountain climbing and adventureinevitably ends up sort of
spiraling around death. Andthese life and death stakes that
(08:34):
engender a self seriousness thatlike, to me doesn't always look
that good, or that interesting,as a spectator viewer audience.
And as as storytellers andparticipants, it's like, well,
let's talk about how beautifulit is not how scared we are,
(08:56):
because we're going to themountains, you know, we're not
going at gunpoint, we're notgetting drafted. We're not going
there to make the world a betterplace, the way you know,
firefighters and you know,social activists, and so many
other people do in other linesof work. It's a privilege to go
(09:17):
to the mountain. And we do itbecause it's stinking beautiful
and special in that right. And Idon't know, but somehow for me,
that was just a message I wantedto try to convey.
Thom Pollard (09:33):
You did you did it. And so when of as a
filmmaker, which both of you areand as a climber, how do you do
that? How do you tell thatstory? Honestly, I mean, from a
serious question. From an idea.
It sounds great when you're inbase camp, waiting out a storm
drinking coffee, this would begreat to have beautiful film on
a screen in a movie See, youknow, really that's where the
(10:01):
grind comes in. That's thesuffer fest right there perhaps
right?
Freddie Wilkinson (10:06):
I mean, 10 years, 10 years, but it was
something that, you know, itreally started for us. When the
climb ended. We, we, you know,as shown in the film, we got
totally sucked in by the totraverse, in the course of doing
(10:28):
it, we, we had this idea, let'stry to try to capture it from
the air. And, you know, now thatRon on especially is really a
world famous adventurefilmmaker, it seems like, you
know, probably natural to someof your listeners that he would
have a helicopter following himaround. But 15 years ago, that
(10:50):
wasn't the case. And you know,as a matter of fact, this was
probably the first time he hadever played with helicopters,
either of us had played be like,tried to do cinematography. So,
you know, we had to put our ownskin in the game, like we didn't
have sponsor money, I think weeach put up like eight or 10
(11:12):
grand. And we had, we did haveFernando's production company
providing some some logisticssupport, and, you know, a
producer who would kind of takecalls to make us seem
professional, but we basicallyit all came down to one day. And
you know, we had a, you know,helicopter, camera attack
(11:34):
equipment, all has to getlocated in Tel kitna. And, you
know, we couldn't affordanymore. And so, you know, we
just kind of went into thisattitude, like, you know, we're
just going to roll the dice andsee what happens. And it just,
you know, ended up that we're inthe, in the midst of the first
(11:58):
ascent on the day and theweather aligned, and all of it
came together. And, you know,when we got back, we didn't know
any of that was happening at thetime. We were in the middle of
this pretty epic climb, we sawthe helicopter spinning
overhead. There were some cloudskind of around us, but it was
(12:18):
like, Oh, that's cool. Hopefullythey got something and then you
know, we did the climb takes afew days to pack up your base
camp, get back to civilization,we get back to civilization, and
they're at the airport in theair taxi office is the hard
drive of the capture of from thefrom the helicopter that day.
(12:41):
And I remember like plugging itinto a laptop and looking at it
for the first time. And beinglike, you know, well, all btw
that's, that's pretty epic. Andthen like a split second later.
I was like, it looks just like abrad Washburn photo. And, you
(13:01):
know, 10 years later, here weare. But Ron has some
perspective on this too, aswell.
Renan Ozturk (13:08):
Yeah, meant a lot to us to like try to try to film
something on an actual firstascent, you see a lot of that
kind of Hollywood stylefilmmaking kind of all. It all
comes back to your otherquestion of like the recreations
and everything like that. Wejust want to want it to show the
range the way that Brad wouldand had had people understand
(13:30):
what it was like for him back inthe early days of hanging out
open door of an airplane and the50s. And we realized that we
needed to, we needed to have acreative way to show that so
that that shoot was prettyintentional. It was like, also
(13:50):
very seat of our pants in termsof how it, how it came together.
In terms of even even the cameraused for the shoot was a was
actually Brad's camera from whatwas the name of the museum
Friday.
Freddie Wilkinson (14:05):
Museum of the North. University Alaska
Fairbanks.
Renan Ozturk (14:09):
Fairbanks. Yeah, and they wouldn't. Brad had
donated the camera before hedied to the museum and he had
asked for it back a few times.
They wouldn't give it to him forsome reason. We convinced them
that we were going to hang itover the range one last time and
give it a swan song. And yeah,it was just all those little
little pieces as what it takesto like make this longer, longer
(14:32):
film and like Freddy put inyears of archival research
digitizing tapes, includingyours for the first time so that
they could be in this format.
The whole story of Lucania a lotof that stuff was digitized for
(14:52):
the first time the shots of Bradwith the sifting the mud through
his hands before they take offOn the mudflats using a cocktail
bar as makeshift skis in thebottom of the plane with a
history of Alaska aviation. Soyeah, there's there's a lot of
stories within within thetapestry of the of the whole
(15:14):
film. But overall it's, it'slike, I think for us it's meant
to, to show why we do it and thejoy and the beauty but also the
spirit of exploration and, and aframe of reference around what
is the spirit of exploration.
And for Brad, it was the sharingof it and not just the
(15:36):
conquering of these things. Buthow can future generations
benefit for what he brought backand continue to inspire and use
that footage for conservation orunderstanding? And yeah, it was
really just an ODE, an ode tothat exploration is sharing.
Thom Pollard (15:57):
That's fantastic.
That is Brad and for sure. Thesharing of it. Tell me a little
bit about the mooses traversefor those who don't know, and I
guess this was a Freddy secretfor years and you let it slip
after having a couple of beersone night with Ron on and his
friends. And then this thiswhole legend of the mooses
(16:19):
traverse took shape. But but itstill took a few years. Can you
explain that to me? And let usknow what you know, give us a
visual of it if you can'tactually see it?
Freddie Wilkinson (16:30):
Sure, absolutely. So everybody's heard
of Denali. Very few people haveheard of the great gorge of the
roof glacier, which is just tothe south of Denali, but it's
some of the most tremendoustopography. In North America, if
(16:51):
not the world. It's a muchbigger Canyon than the Grand
Canyon, it is the you know, thelargest canyon feature in North
America. And, but the bottomhalf of it is covered with ice,
and so that you have 5000 footbig walls, dropping from
(17:15):
glaciated summits into theglacier, but then they continue
another, you know, three to 4000feet below the surface of the
glacier. And the moose is to isreally more than one specific
mountain like you might imaginein a picture. It's a very
(17:36):
tangled, complicated web ofpeaks, that occupies one side of
that gorge. And, you know, it'sjust a place of deep, you know,
energy, not to get touchy feely,but I think lots of climbers and
and pilots, all sorts of folkshave been to the gorge and felt
(18:02):
its, its majesty, and it's cold.
And so yeah, the tooth traverse,you know, I had been there as a
young climber, renowned Zach andI all three of us kind of
migrate, you know, found thegorge separately in our early
20s. And, as we we, you know,made our way through through
climbing and we kind of startedto get to know each other a
(18:26):
little bit, kind of climbtogether separately. And yeah,
I'm, I've never been good atkeeping my mouth shut about
projects. I would love to saythat it's completely born of
this altruistic, you know,desire to share, as we sort of
(18:47):
expressed in the film, but it'sprobably just because I got a
loose mouth and I like to talkand jaw and you know, so I'm
like, here's what I'm thinkingabout. And, you know, such was
the case one night in Boulder. Ithink it was 2009 when I was
there visiting, staying with Ronand Zach's house, and I knew
(19:10):
they had a trip plan to Alaska.
And it was like, Oh, you gottayou gotta try this thing.
Thom Pollard (19:18):
So one thing, the scene that I really love in this
is, is that the reality of lifekind of hits. And so Zack, who
was supposed to be with you,basically, it kind of got a job
and just said, Dude, my lifeneeds to move forward and in in
(19:39):
this trajectory right now. Somaybe regrettably, you guys went
off to do it. And I felt likethere's something very poignant
in that because we are veryprivileged to be able to go off
on adventures like this. And andwe risk and spend so much time
and money as well. Got to dothese things. Usually, at least
(20:03):
the people that I've spent mytime with, fully aware that this
is not normal. And we've and weare, there's a lot of humility.
And you guys, you are twoexamples of humble people, we
have to have big enough egos togo after crap like that. But But
reality sets in and you got towork, right? So there's that
(20:25):
shot of him wrapping theChristmas lights around taking
them down from a house orputting them up. And it was
like, whoa. So if you can justcomment about like that, I love
that scene I just knocked meover every time.
Renan Ozturk (20:41):
I'm glad that you picked up on that, because that
was a big sub story. For us asZach was such a, he's such a
purist. And as you as you learnmore and more about, about
climbers, and people who goafter these mountains, there's,
(21:03):
there's like kind of differentforms of it. There's like the
Washburn's who are likeprofessionals. And they're
getting big sponsors likeNational Geographic and things
like, like some of the biggestpublications on Earth supporting
these things. And that comeswith a price of like, what
(21:24):
you're what you're deliveringand sharing from that. And then
there's some climbers who don'thave that self promotional bone
in their body, and they justwant to do it for the complete
purity of the experience. Andthey separate those two lives.
And that was Zach. And we reallywanted to, to lay that bare and
(21:44):
not try to hide, hide what thatis, so people can can see the
realities of it. And, yeah, kindof, we still have a great
relationship with Zach. And theirony of it all is that we
suffered for years and basicallywent into debt trying to make
(22:05):
the film while while his youknow, Christmas light business
ended up exploding and he wasdoing these massive jobs
basically retired now like, he'slike a billionaire. That yeah,
just kidding on the billionairepart. But you know, he's, he
just done like super well. Andhe's, he's found his own path in
(22:27):
the mountains. And, and we've,for a lot of times, we wanted to
make the film more about abouthim, and we thought he was a
stronger character to drive it.
And there's, there's a lot ofpaths you go down making a film.
But in the end, Zack played areally important role, not only
in climbing the mountain, butalso like giving that
(22:51):
counterpoint to what what isadventure, what is meaning in
the mountains, and it'sdifferent for different people.
Obviously, for us, it was moreof a Washburn style, where we
just love the creative aspect.
And it's hard to separate thecreative aspect from the climate
(23:12):
self, but it's not for everyone.
Thom Pollard (23:15):
Thank you. That's a great explanation and follow
up to my question if it even wasa question, but so let's just
talk about Brad Washburn realquick. So I'll do an
introduction to this interview.
But, but for those listening,Brad is credited as the modern
day founder of the Boston Museumof Science who also happen to do
(23:35):
13 first ascents in Alaska. AndAnsel Adams called him the great
aerial photographer, the greatmountain for aerial photographer
of mountains perhaps and, and soBrad passed away in oh seven at
96. So we're looking at hisfirst National Geographic
(23:56):
adventurer, sponsored sponsoredexpedition to do aerials, I
think in 1936. So we're talkingalmost 100 years ago, and Brad
was truly breaking ground. Andas you said, he his driving
force was to share the knowledgethat he gained by being in the
(24:17):
mountains, encouraging people togo to the mountains. And one
little thing to add in that ofall the great accomplishments of
Brad's life to a tee everysingle time you ask them, what's
the greatest accomplishment inyour life and he's always would
say, number one, I marriedBarbara. Always 100% of the
(24:38):
time, never. That was numberone. Everything else came after.
So with that said, that's apretty big inspiration. He
inspired a lot of people and youare making him you know, another
Iraq God, if you will, in termsof how you're paying homage to
(24:58):
Uh, so if you could just talk alittle bit about Brad.
Freddie Wilkinson (25:03):
Yeah, sure. I mean, he's his, it's an honor
to, you know, get to make a filmabout him and, you know, getting
to explore his network. All theplaces he left his his
fingerprints is it's justfascinating and really pulled me
(25:26):
in and, you know, it's reallyhow I connected with you, I
think. You know, you'll probablysay this in the intro, but Tom
was kind of Washburn's firstdocumentarian. You know, in a
way back when he was stillalive, you shot with him quite
extensively and did a trip toAlaska with him. And, and your
(25:49):
footage is, is heavily featuredin our film, really, so, so
thank you for all that. Yeah,huge, you know, so how we made a
movie about Washburn was just,you know, standing on the
shoulders of everybody who, youknow, he had inspired and
connected with, and, you know,we have astronauts and, you
(26:16):
know, fine art photographers,supporting voices in the film
writers. David. Yeah. DavidRoberts. And great, great
mountaineering and adventurewriter. And a lot of a lot of
neat people. So, yeah, althoughI never had a chance to meet
(26:38):
him, you know, myself. I alwaysI liken him to sort of a real
life Indiana Jones figure,because he had the Boston Museum
of Science who was his day job,he wore a suit and tie and, you
know, shook hands with importantpeople. And, and then on the
(26:58):
weekend, he put on his fedora,and go hang out the door of an
airplane. And, and, you know, Imean, growing up as a kid, I
loved Indiana Jones.
Thom Pollard (27:09):
It's a natural run on so in terms of the Washburn
connection he was he was trulyremarkable person of that
generation. And I know we'refriends and everything but but
you I look at you as like,you're, you're the modern day,
(27:31):
you know, have the eye and havethat that artistic photographer
and filmmaker that probably Bradwould have liked to be in terms
of the pictures and images thatyou've created. you've flown
drones and done dramatic timelapses up to the summit of Mount
Everest from many 1000s of feetbelow. So in terms of the
(27:53):
beautiful things you've createdwith Freddy as your partner in
this Gosh, man, you're you'redoing someone like Brad Washburn
a heck of a lot of justice, andI'm sure his family and
relatives are just gonna gushover this.
Renan Ozturk (28:08):
Yeah, it's crazy.
Spirit of Washburn is strong. WeI never met him personally,
either, but yeah, so he's so soahead of his time and his, you
know, those, those giant eightby 10 negatives are gonna stand
the test of time. There's stillnot a lot of modern cameras that
(28:28):
that can touch it. And it'syeah, it's it's going to remain
inspiration for like a lot ofgenerations to come.
Thom Pollard (28:41):
So I know you guys both have to go in a short bit
so let let me ask you and I'llhopefully do justice to
introducing the film. You guyspursued this career hard and you
paid the price along the waywasn't always not that you know,
it's all you know, glory and redcarpet or anything, even though
(29:04):
we look forward to the redcarpet of this film, but you pay
the price because you believe sostrongly in what you want to do
in your life. This is aboutpursuing and going after what
you truly love and what's inyour heart and you're not
willing to do anything otherthan that despite if you will
(29:26):
the collateral damage of goingafter it a lot of couches a lot
a lot of tuna casserole fordinner and, and things like
that. So am I am I on targetwith that? Have you guys truly
like you really do epitomizepeople just believing in in
(29:46):
ones, if you will, directive anddoing it no matter what.
Freddie Wilkinson (29:53):
I say it all.
Thank you, I think Could we, youknow, it feels more like it, you
know, it was just this thiscreative process that we started
without really knowing whatwe're getting into, you know,
with this one, and you know, itgot kind of felt like it kept
(30:17):
getting harder and harder thecloser we got, I think, and but
it also, you know, there'ssomething that I think was nice
and that, you know, if we hadtaken, say that proverbial, you
know, check from a sponsor sixyears ago, or eight years ago
(30:40):
and finish the movie real quick.
You know, I'm not I'm not sureif it would have, you know, had
the time to kind of marinateand, and, you know, get to where
it is,
Thom Pollard (30:55):
or not, yeah, yes, there was some thick and thick
times as Freddy was justreferring to, right.
Renan Ozturk (31:02):
Yeah, no, it definitely almost fell apart
multiple times. And it was itwas not easy to have this
passion project is always in thebackground, trying to figure out
how to move it along. You know,it was I yeah, I don't think a
lot of people realize just the,how a lot some of these
(31:25):
documentaries that you see,maybe they're funded from the
beginning, and that's your fulltime job. But Freddie and I both
had multiple other full timejobs. And Friday, we're starting
a family with two little ones.
And it's a lot to bring afeature documentary to fruition.
But yeah, I think it's it islike, this is the moment where
(31:48):
it all it all kind of coalesces,and you finally have people like
yourself, getting to see it, andthen then like mainstream,
things like the New York Times,and The Wall Street Journal and
The Guardian are reviewing it,which is just surreal. And the
way that it seems like all theaudiences, everyone that's
(32:14):
watched, it picks up on onsomething different. And we
think that we think that this isgoing to be a meaningful
contribution in the tapestry ofall these different powerful
climbing films and explorationfilms in its own way. And
hopefully it will have this likelong slow burn that kind of
(32:35):
lasts, and does justice to likethat question that we were
talking about, like, what's themeaning to it all and, and even
the context of the last fewyears as how exploration has
changed. And now both Freddieand myself and all of us as a
(32:58):
community, we're like, oh, it'sit's about way more than just
ourselves and these kind ofwhite guy explorations, these
privileged white guyexplorations and what can we do
in the future and we hope thatsome of this footage can be used
for conservation purposes andcontinue to be used by Denali
National Park for education andyeah, there's, there's a lot a
(33:22):
lot there that hopefully willwill live on, beyond just the
adventure of the tooth traverse.
That's all tied into the ethosof of Washburn from the
beginning.
Thom Pollard (33:37):
Freddie Renard, thank you for taking the time to
tell us about your film. In theliner notes of this video or
podcast episode will be links towhere you can find out more
about sanctity of space on theirFacebook page on a landing page
for their website and alsotheaters where you might be able
to go see it yourself. Thank youfor visiting the happiness
(33:59):
quotient. I will see you allreal soon.
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