September 5, 2023 • 38 mins
Hold on tight as we buckle up for a thrilling ride across the Hollywood on-strike tumultuous landscape with an eye-opening conversation with indie producer Jonathan Vanger. His vast experience as a veteran producer has him sharing the highs and lows of his journey, from Cannes Film Festival memories to the complex process of inheriting his father's empire. Jonathan's unique perspective on the ongoing evolution of the film and television industry, coupled with his tips on staying afloat amid shifting tides, promises a wealth of insights for all aspiring and established entrepreneurs in the industry.
Did you know how much COVID-19 and the actors' and writers' strikes have impacted independent filmmakers? This episode shares a firsthand account of those experiences, shedding light on the governmental support accessible and the real expenses associated with creating films. The topic of residuals, a bone of contention in the industry, is also dissected from a producer's point of view, offering a fresh perspective on this not-talked-about enough issue.
We don't just stop at identifying the hurdles; we also suggest practical solutions for independent filmmakers to overcome them. We delve into the potential of producers' collaborations to secure funds for movie projects, the implications of the actors' strike, and ways to navigate the current scenario for independent producers.
If you're passionate about the entertainment industry, this episode will leave you with a greater understanding of its intricacies, challenges, and the potential for exciting opportunities.
Learn More About The Hollywood Strike:
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/amptp-sag-aftra-deal-1235535657/
https://www.indiewire.com/news/business/producers-union-interview-amptp-petition-1234891772/
https://deadline.com/2023/08/wga-strike-amptp-deal-revealed-1235525636/
Connect with Jonathan Vanger:
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Little Studio Films - Website
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to the Heart of Show business.
I am your host, alexia Melochi.
I believe in great storytellingand that every successful
artist has a deep desire toexpress something from the heart
to create a ripple effect inour society.
Emotion and entertainment areclosely tied together.
My guests and I want to giveyou insider access to how the
(00:28):
film, television and musicindustry works.
We will cover Dreams Come True,the Road, life's Travel,
journey, beginnings and a lot ofinsight and inspiration in
between.
I am a successful film andtelevision entrepreneur who came
to America as a teenager topursue my show business dreams.
Are you ready for someunfiltered real talk with
(00:50):
entertainment visionaries fromall over the world?
Then let's roll sound andaction.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Well, I am so thrilled and delighted on this
new season.
I keep having amazing guests.
It hasn't even started yet, butI am recording this and you're
going to be hearing about itvery soon.
I have somebody who is not onlya friend.
I'm not even going to say howmany years because that's going
to age us both but I'm justgoing to say that his dad and my
(01:23):
mom were very good friends.
They shared many lunches inCannes on the beach.
He used to come to my birthdayparties with his brother.
He used to come visit me at theAFM.
I still have pictures where Iwas sandwiched between those two
handsome British young men thatthey took over their father's
empire in the film business.
(01:44):
They all became forced to bereckoned with.
I'm talking with one of thebanker brothers, my dear friend
Jonathan connecting all the wayfrom Canada, who has produced a
few more movies than I have andeven bigger ones, because
yesterday I did like 35 movies.
I think he did 38 and he's areally big people.
(02:04):
He's worked with JessicaJustine, he worked with Gary
Oldman, he worked with OpelWalker.
I want to hear about that.
I think it was right before hepassed away.
He worked on series and he justdid a movie that you can catch
on most streaming platforms, Ithink called Best Sellers, with
Michael Gaines and Aubrey Plaza.
You have to check that out andalso Wolf and the Lion, which is
(02:27):
a family movie, so he had me inthe word Wolf and Lion and a
girl with animals.
You're speaking to the lion.
Welcome, jonathan.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Thank you, thank you very much.
That was a very nice, kindintroduction.
Thank you very much indeed.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Well, jonathan, I mean you are a producer, but
obviously you are somebody whois a real producer, boots on the
ground kind of producer.
You're not a producer who justfinds something that just, oh,
I'm going to create and then I'mgoing to send somebody else run
the set.
You are like the person who'son the set figuring it out,
figuring the financing, how tomake movies.
(03:05):
How easy was it back then, whenyou and I first knew one
another, and how hard it istoday, without having to reach
for their vodka and having toget drunk.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Yeah Well, listen, I think that you know it's all
relative.
You know you look at it todayand you think back to the days
before how easy it was when youknow there was a video market
and then a DVD market and therewere secondary markets you could
tap into.
And I can remember sort of thelate 80s where you could almost
make anything and people wouldbuy it.
(03:40):
Amazing as that may sound, andit was.
I suppose you know, thinkingabout your time and when we
worked in the business, we wereprobably too young at that stage
really to have taken for theadvantage of that way.
You know a lot of people thatwere up and running at that time
made a very good living, werevery successful, and then some
(04:04):
of them, the clever ones,decided that time was to step
out and some others stayed inand then discovered, perhaps
like going to the casino, thatat some point you, your luck,
just runs out.
The business has changedenormously.
It really has on so many levels.
I mean you know you, in one ofyour previous podcasts you were
talking about the Cannes FilmFestival, for instance, and I
(04:26):
remember going going to Cannesas a young boy with my parents
and you know the level of thelevel of parties and the way
Cannes was back then there was,it must have been vast amounts
of money being thrown around forall sorts of things.
Cannes used to last for 10 days.
(04:47):
You could go and play golf inthe middle of the Cannes Film
Festival if you wanted to,because you know there was that
sort of a time.
I mean, now we go in there andyou kind of go in for four days.
You don't sleep, you run around, you do squeeze as many
meetings and, as you were saying, we don't even make it to the
parties anymore because you justcan't function if you do so, I
(05:08):
always I walk around the NewYork housing and I think of it
as a sort of midnight, lookingdown the beach at these parties,
thinking to myself, oh yeah,and then I think, well, no, on
second thoughts, I've got ameeting at sort of eight o'clock
tomorrow morning.
I'm not going to go into thatthing and rub shoulders with are
all probably inebriated andwould all feel rough the next
day.
(05:28):
But the market's changed.
It's a more difficult businessnow, but I always say to people
that it's a degree of difficulty.
You know we're all, asfilmmakers and film producers
and distributors and salespeople.
We're used to the challengesthat this business throws up,
and being able to adapt andchange at the times is what
(05:51):
keeps you alive.
You know, I venture to guessthat if I was a Wall Street
banker back in 2008, makingmillions of dollars every year,
really without having to get outof bed almost suddenly the
changes and the challenges thatthe financial markets found
themselves in were was asignificant swing.
(06:11):
So you went from making moneyeasily to not making money at
all.
It's always been difficult tomake money in the film business.
It's always been a challenge,and I think that you know the
term entrepreneur.
Being entrepreneurial and beingable to adapt to the
circumstances is really thefundamental thing that keeps
(06:36):
anybody going in this industry.
It really is, you know.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think you know.
Obviously we want to call outthe elephant in the room because
you know those are the good olddays where you and I could just
show a trailer to somebody orshow a script and people go, oh
yeah.
I've got money.
You know, I want to give youmoney.
Let's make a movie or let'sresell it.
And now the market is alreadydifficult post COVID.
And we were just coming out ofCOVID with thinking, oh great,
(07:02):
maybe we can start making moviesagain or TV shows.
And now we have a strike thatis four months going between
actors and writers, and the waris with AMP, tps or whatever I'm
spelling it wrong which has theword type producer in that
world.
(07:22):
And so people are thinking thatyou and I are the bad guys, the
producers are the bad guys.
So maybe clarify a little bit.
You know, why are we not thebad guys?
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Well, yes, I mean, you raise a good point.
I mean, you know, the producersversus the creators, that's.
That's the sort of way this hasbeen sort of portrayed, but as
a matter of fact, it's not thatat all.
I mean, we find ourselves asproducers is sort of a little
bit stuck in between a rock anda hard place.
You know, we also suffer fromthe fact that you know the
(07:59):
studios, the streamers, you know, in their business models.
It has an impact upon us too,you know, in a negative way.
I think that you know, thisrecent situation has obviously
been brewing for a while.
We all recognize that thesystem that we have is probably
broken for a whole variety ofreasons.
(08:22):
It needs a reboot and a rethinkacross many levels.
But my personal view is thatthis was extremely bad timing.
I think that they could quiteeasily kick the can down the
road for 12 months on this andgiven the industry a chance to
(08:42):
write itself, to put itself backin, to get its house in order,
if you like, after COVID, getitself back into some kind of
rhythm.
You know, in 2019, I produced afilm Crisis with Gary Oldman.
I went straight into doing thefilm with Michael Cain and Best
Sellers and nothing begetsbusiness more than business.
(09:03):
So you're on a roll, you've gotthings going on and so on, and
then COVID came and hit andessentially destroyed those two
films as a marketing campaign.
There was no way ofdistributing those movies.
They essentially got lost inthe whole COVID thing.
Then you come out of that andthen, in 22, I was able to
produce two more pictures.
I did a big project for Goumontwhich we filmed here in
(09:25):
Montreal, which is a $30 millionmovie, and then we followed
that up with the film.
It wasn't a sequel, but it wasanother movie called Jaguar, my
Love Again, the animal familyfilm, which is in
post-production at the moment.
And then the strike comes.
So again you get two moviesmade and everything grinds to a
halt, the difference being thistime is that, like a lot of
(09:47):
producers, we benefited at leastin Canada, at least anywhere,
and I think in many othercountries.
The government was very generouswith the arts.
We got very good loans, we gotfinancial support who were given
the means to be able to keepour operations turning over, and
if we weren't producinganything and many of us have
(10:08):
borrowed or were given grantsand loans Some of those loans
need to be repaid.
We're reaching a stage wherethose loans that were very
low-interest loans have nowtransformed themselves into
interest-bearing loans and herewe are in a situation where
there's no business coming in.
So obviously that's a bigconcern for independent
(10:31):
filmmakers like myself who haveI have five people that I employ
.
I have an overhead.
It's not a big overhead butnevertheless you spend 18 months
or two years without generatingany income.
That has a very negative impactupon your business model, which
means that money that you wouldotherwise be spending on
developing projects, trying toset up new ideas, and you have
(10:54):
to go on to hold, because themoney that you have you have to
use for keeping the lights onand paying your staff, which I
think is a very important thingto do.
So that means that when youcome out of all of this, when
eventually this strike isresolved, you can't be on the
other side.
None of your IP is beingdeveloped, so you're kind of
back to square one, but actuallyyou're worse off than square
one.
You're actually behind theeight-borne.
(11:16):
You've actually gone backwards,not forwards.
So my personal view was well,look, we should have been again.
I don't disagree with anythingthat the writers' guilds are
arguing for a SAG are arguingfor and I have my own particular
views on that, we'll discuss itin a minute but a 12-month
hiatus that's kicked the candown the road for 12 months
(11:38):
picked things up would have beena welcome thing.
It would have enabled us tokeep that ball rolling again,
because we're not really as theindependent producers, we don't
call the shots.
We kind of end up inheritingwhatever it is that everybody
finishes negotiating with, whichinvariably will mean that
making a movie or making filmswill cost more money.
That's always the end result ofthese negotiations.
(12:03):
The costs go up, the amount ofmoney available to us to make
the films doesn't increase, butthe cost of making them does,
and so, again, the impetus fallsupon us to try and find ways
and means of being able to closethat gap.
And that's sort of really where, you know, being a producer
(12:24):
comes into the fore.
You have to be able to findsolutions, be it making creative
compromises or be it beingreally, really savvy about
trying to tap into soft money,financing or co-production
structures.
There are lots of differentways of being able to skin the
cat, but you have to know whatthose things are and able to be
(12:47):
able to do them properly.
So you know, my opinion of thestrike is that, yes, it was
inevitable.
Did it have to happen now?
Probably not.
Will it have an impact upon ourbusinesses, filmmakers, going
forward?
I'm sure it will, in terms ofan increase in cost in some form
or other.
And you know, is it going tomake our lives any easier?
(13:10):
Well, the answer is clearly no,it's not.
It's not going to make ourlives any easier at all.
I always use this.
I speak about residualsparticularly, which obviously is
a sore point.
But residuals is somethingwhere I hear people arguing
saying well, if the film issuccessful, our union members
(13:32):
should benefit from the successof a project, and I agree with
that.
But then what's the definitionof success?
The definition of success inmost people's business is when
you start making a profit that'sdeemed to be a success.
I find it very difficult thatresiduals get paid before the
cost of the film has actuallybeen recouped.
(13:54):
Before I, as a producer, makeany money, before I, as a
producer, get any of my deferredfees back, before I reimburse
my bank, before I reimburse myinvestors, I'm paying out
residuals and if I haven't beenable to convince my US
distributor or my distributorsto assume those obligations to
SAG or to the writer's guild.
I get stuck with those thingseven though I have no revenue
(14:17):
coming in, and that doesn't seemto be in the spirit of what the
intention was going forward.
I understand if you go a stepfurther when you start talking
about TV exploitation and thingsbeing seen on TV and those
residuals that are derived fromthat.
And that's a little bitdifferent from what we're
talking about here is if I make$10 million of sales
(14:39):
international sales to financemy movie, I've got to pay a
residual on that Before I even.
I'm already being charged aresidual on that $10 million and
I haven't recouped the $10million it's cost to make the
movie and I haven't actuallymade any upside on this.
I think that's never gonna getresolved.
But that remains a bit of a sorepoint to me because I think
(15:01):
that's not equitable as aproducer.
We shouldn't be in a positionwhere we're effectively paying
people a profit share on a filmbefore the film was a profit.
And if you think about most ofthe movies that I do at least
anyway, because I'm working herein Canada usually the stars of
(15:23):
our movies are the SAG players.
So all of my secondary roles,my supporting roles, my extras
everybody else down the line arenot necessarily tapping into
this.
So if I'm paying an actor amillion dollars as a fee or $2
million to two actors, forexample so that's a fairly
(15:44):
decent fee by all accounts I'mhaving to defer most of my fee,
or the completion guarantortakes my fee in case of obriges
or whatever the case may be, andthen I find myself having to
pay my stars residuals and it'slike well, hold on a minute here
.
I've just paid you a milliondollars each, which is a fairly
decent payday.
I haven't paid me and made anymoney yet.
(16:05):
I haven't even reimbursedanything.
And here you are with yourunion asking me to pay residuals
to you.
There's something not rightwith that.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Jonathan, I think that there is a thing that
people saying well, you know theargument, and I have a lot of
actor friends who obviously arenot stars and they're saying
listen, we're living on $26,000a year on average.
We can't even pay for ourhealth insurance and we need
this money.
But the point is that sadreality is that those type of
(16:39):
actors are not gonna trigger ourfinancing.
So I understand that they wannaget paid and understand that
the residuals are important forthem.
But we need the actors in orderto get our financing and sadly
it is not gonna be thejourneyman who is going to make
our film Great Lit, and so itbecomes a whole big problem for
(17:01):
us, not to mention the fact thatnot many people know that.
You know, produces guilt is nota union, it's a guilt.
So we are also waiting forresiduals.
We don't have any way offighting.
We don't have medical coverageand, as you said yourself,
sometimes we may work on a filmfor five, 10 years and then, if
we look at our producer fee,that may end up being 100,000,
(17:23):
200,000.
You divide that by 10 years, itdoes become 20,000.
Which is less than what anactor would make working for
maybe five days in a whole week.
And we're working for five years.
How is that fair?
You know, cause we are in thesame predicament as them.
They keep on separating us asif, like we're like I said, we
have private yachts and planesand everything that we got
(17:47):
plenty to live on and they donot see the sacrifices that we
all make to see a movie done,because we have to deal with all
the unions and make them happy.
And why shouldn't everybodyprofit?
If somebody is there to profit,who says that a director of
photography is not essential tothe success of a movie?
(18:09):
Or a production designer?
Or an editor, why are wesingling out the writers and the
actors?
Granted, without something onthe page, you can't make
anything.
You and I, especially when itcomes to scripts, we need
something on the page for youand I would say we're gonna go
off and make a film or a seriesabout that.
But still, if there has to be apool, then everybody has to
(18:32):
enjoy it from that pool.
And, like I said, if that'sgonna happen, it could have
waited.
Because, yes, we're arguingabout AI.
Well, guess what people?
Ai has been here for years.
Now everybody's talking aboutAI.
Did we not multiply crowds whenwe are cutting costs on visual
effects and we can't afford toget 5,000 extras in a scene and
(18:54):
we only hire 50 actors.
We always use the AI.
Yes, it's true, but I also hearfrom first aidees and I don't
know if you have similar storieswhere I say a lot of these
extras that they wanna get paidbecause their image is gonna be
reused.
They've had horrible experiencewith some of the quote unquote
(19:16):
newer actors who go there andeat crab services and start
pitching scripts to the stars,steal stuff.
I mean I'm not sayingeverybody's the same, but I mean
it's very hard even for firstaidee to work with the day
players.
So where is this issue with AI?
I mean, yes, it is an issue.
(19:36):
It is mostly for writers, evenmore than it is for actors, I
think.
I think for writers it'sscarier than it is for actors.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Yeah, I agree with that.
I agree, I think, just to yourpoint earlier on.
I just wanted to make a lastcomment on the residual things.
One of the interesting thingsin Canada with Actra, who is the
acting union up here, is thatyou have the option as a
producer to buy out four yearsof residuals as part of your
budget.
So what you do is you say, look, I'm gonna pay you 135% of your
(20:08):
fee and for the next four years, or for the first cycle of the
movie, I don't need to reportyou to anything.
So the beauty with that is thatthat 135% fee is a little bit
more expensive to us going in,but I can get a tax credit on
that because it's part andparcel of the actor's salary, so
I get some relief on that.
So it's not just money out ofmy pocket that basically has to
(20:29):
come out of thin air.
Yes, it increased the cost, butthe actors in question, and it
may be that 135% that I pay,which sort of buys out
everything under the sun.
That's on the premise that thefilm is actually very successful
.
It may not be very successful,but I'm covered anyway.
So I think to myself well,surely there must be a middle
(20:51):
ground here where we could comeup with a formula where we could
say okay, well, look for theactors that aren't the stars
whether it's fixing a level ofsalary or a definition as to
what that actor is in the movie,so that all the people that are
below that level, that linelevel, whatever it's set at
would be entitled to.
You could buy out the residualupfront as part of your budget.
(21:14):
You could build it into yourfinancing.
If you're doing it in some suchway, maybe there's a tax credit
you can generate because itcomes part of a salary.
That seems to be to be a muchmore sensible way of doing it.
What it takes away, though ittakes away the sort of Seinfeld
effect and what I mean by thatis the is the notion that you
could work on a show that couldsuddenly explode and go into
(21:36):
syndication and you're makingmore money in residuals than you
ever made from actually makingthe show.
So maybe there's a differentsort of approach to that too.
I really don't know, but I thinkthat both the producers
association and the guild seemto be so far apart in terms of
(22:01):
what it is that they want.
I don't know what will beinvolved in terms of who's going
to cave first because someone'sgoing to have to give something
up.
It doesn't seem to me that themoment either parties are going
to give anything up, so it hasto get to that point, and I
don't know how long this willlast, for I think that it's
probably going to last up untilthe end of the year.
(22:22):
I think that people will beginvery soon to think well,
december's just around thecorner.
Are we really going to startanything between now and the end
of the year?
Probably not.
We may as well bump it to thenew year, and that, I think,
will slow down the negotiationprocess.
I think we're looking at theearly part of next year before
(22:43):
this is resolved, and even ifthey resolve it beforehand, by
the time it actually sort ofgets into the system and people
are able to start gearing upagain and getting things back
together again.
No one's going to startproduction in November and then
come back in January.
They're going to wait and justcome back in January.
So I think this is I think wecan pretty much put across
through 2023 as independentfilmmakers, because even getting
(23:07):
the waivers right now is taking.
I applied for a waiver on July,the 19th.
We're now what?
The 22nd of August and I stillhave nothing back.
So, and this is just to getcasting offers out.
So if it takes me that long toget that, you know how long do I
, how long is it going to be,how long does it take?
And you know we're working onproductions which sort of need
(23:31):
to go into production right now.
It doesn't give you a lot oftime.
You know it's like, okay, so Ihave to wait for six to eight
weeks before I get a waiver so Ican make an offer to an actor.
And we're sitting here, we'resitting here in September now.
So just think about it for asecond.
I hope for six weeks from thetime making application today.
That brings me up to the end ofSeptember.
Then I've got to make an offerto talent.
It's going to take me a monthto do that.
(23:52):
Let's say so now, the end ofOctober.
Am I really going to start myfinancing in November and
December?
And you know, no, it's going toget pushed until next year.
So you know, being aMontreal-based producer where we
have snow on the ground fromJanuary through to April, I'm
basically telling myself, okay,well, likelihood is we're not
going to do anything until nextspring, which is 18 months of
(24:13):
inertia, which is not great.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
No, and I'm so glad you're talking about the waiver
issue because I have somefriends of mine again who are
SAG members and they're gettingthose newsletters from the guild
saying oh, don't worry, we'rehere to support the indie
producers.
They're going to, though, theyhave to do a scholars, and we'll
give them a waiver right away.
And you're not the first personthat I hear.
It's taking forever even to geta return call.
(24:38):
Yes, maybe somebody was a star.
They're going to get the waiverright away, but you and I are
not.
And then what happens with thatwaiver?
Because you have toautomatically agree to the new
agreement, whatever thatagreement means, which means
that you cannot sell to astreamer until that agreement is
done.
Yeah, so how do you again goback to your investor and say
(25:02):
guys, thank you for giving memillions of dollars, but I'm
going to be selling your filmand, as we know, the streamer is
pretty much 80% of the sale.
At this point, for us to makeany money back is certainly not
international.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
No, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Turkey and Greece and whatever 5000 year and 5000
there.
So they're saying great, we'llgive you the waiver, but you
have to agree that you're notgoing to sell to us.
So how are we going to make ourmoney back?
And that's why I love thatyou're talking about the waiver
thing, because they thinkthey're helping us.
I honestly don't think they are.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Well, I'm not sure.
I think also that it's a littlebit the blind lead in the blind
.
I think that they don't reallyknow how to manage their way
through this.
I think they're.
Look at some of the movies thatare being given waivers.
You think to yourself wellthat's, that's odd.
How did that waiver get given?
Because aren't they financed byAmazon or Lionsgate or somebody
(25:56):
else?
The formulas that I filled out.
I have to declare that I haveno financing from any of those
entities.
So I guess there aretechnicalities to some of it and
maybe contracts that havealready been signed and deals
that have already been agreed.
I honestly don't know, but it'sa slow process and I would
imagine that SAG, they probablyare doing their best, but this
(26:18):
is a complicated and slightlyconvoluted affair.
So it's just again, the timingof it sort of isn't great, but
look, it'll sort itself out andwe'll go back to making movies
in some fashion, or rather,whatever the case may be.
But I think that you know, asproducers, it would be great if
we could find a way of beingable to talk with one voice and
(26:42):
have a consensus and be able todo things.
You know, here in Quebec, mostof the producers here are very
unhappy with the fact that ourtax credit isn't as aggressive
as it possibly could be and thelocal government here is
reluctant to increase the taxcredit.
(27:02):
But you know, if all of thelocal producers here stop
producing content in Quebecparticularly where the French
language component and the wholecultural aspect of film and
television is incrediblyimportant, if we stopped
producing something just for sixmonths, the government, purely
(27:22):
on a cultural basis, would haveto sit down and say, oh well,
look, what are we gonna do whenthere's no French language new
TV stuff, no French languagemovies coming out?
And they would invariably turnaround and say, okay, we need to
do something about the industryand probably increase the tax
credit.
But you know, producers, do youthink that I could get, you know
, 50 producers in Quebec to allgo on de facto strike?
(27:44):
There'd always be one who wouldsay, oh, this is a great
opportunity.
The 49 of them are on strike,but I'm gonna keep on producing
because I can make.
You know, I can make.
Hey, what everything else isgoing on.
So you know that you couldn'tget that consensus.
But in a utopian world, if therewas a way of getting our
independent producers to allagree on certain things.
(28:06):
We do have some influence.
We do have the ability to drivethings.
We do have the ability to have,say, you know, if you look at
what happens with you know, theAFM, for example, and some of
these other marketingorganizations, they're able to
impose certain things in certainways.
So, you know, I think there's apossibility of it.
(28:27):
But is the goodwill there?
Are the people in the businesswilling to?
Is it a case of help?
You mentioned one of yourpodcasts about people teaming up
and helping each other.
It's a nice thought.
I don't know whether or not allof our colleagues and friends
who are producers arenecessarily of that view.
(28:47):
You know it's like is it allfor one and one for all?
You know, I don't know.
I think it's much more a caseof you know, okay, well, I'll
look at what's best for me.
And if it means that you knowsomeone else that I know doesn't
end up getting what he wants,well it doesn't really matter.
But listen, who knows?
I mean, I don't want to be toocynical about it, but one does
(29:10):
wonder sometimes whether or notthere would be, you know, if you
all sat down in a room and weall have the same problems.
We all have the same concerns.
You'd have thought we could allcome up with one solution that
would fit all, but you know.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Absolutely, and you're being realistic, jonathan
, and you know I sat at the NAMP, the event I remember right
after the pandemic, and one ofthe things that I said is with
when it comes to Europeanproducers, for example, they
come together way more than saywhat is happening US, canada,
north America because they haveto do that out on necessity in
(29:45):
order to access multiple fundsto make movies.
They all have come together.
The Germans have to work withthe British, have to work with
the Italians, have to work withthe Spaniards, even when it
comes to series, they'll pick upsomething.
They're gonna need anotherbroadcaster.
It can be just Sky that does itall.
It can be just the BBC.
So they are coming and they'reall contributing on the
(30:06):
storytelling aspect.
They're all contributing andchiming in and they're not
killing each other.
So there's something to be saidabout them all and I think we
you and I are gonna be inToronto and I am so excited
because, of course, I'm gonna doa podcast after all this and
I'm gonna talk about all ouradventures there.
We'll see how Toronto's gonnapan out.
(30:28):
I mean, what are your thoughts?
Is the last thoughts of like usgoing to a market where there's
hardly any red carpets.
There's hardly any starpresence, where nobody can
really pitch anything with stars.
What do you think is gonnahappen?
Why are we even going toToronto?
Speaker 3 (30:50):
Well, tiff is always a bit like the first day back at
school, right?
I always say it's a little bitlike, you know, when you finish
a summer holiday you're allbrown and you're healthy and
you're relaxed and you go backto school and you're thrilled to
see all your friends and thenby the time AFM runs around in
November, we're all green andfed up and tired and exhausted
again.
So Tiff's always great becauseeveryone looks great, everyone
(31:13):
looks fresh, everyone's in agood mood, everyone's optimistic
.
I really like going there.
I find there's a really goodvibe to the place.
It's a good festival too.
The festival is well run and Ithink it's.
If you're a filmgoer and ifsomebody wants to see movies, I
think Tiff is one of the bestfilm festivals out there.
From a professional perspective, tiff is very different from a
(31:40):
lot of the other markets becausethere isn't that sort of
pressure where you kind of feelthat you need to come away with
something.
It's more like a sort of hi,how are you?
Like I said, first day back atschool kind of thing.
This year, without the actors,without the red carpets, it'll
(32:01):
take away some of the glitz ofthe thing, but it's almost as if
you took away the glitz fromCannes, you'd still have the
film market, you'd still havemeetings, people would still be
there and people like you and Iwill sit down, we'll talk, I'll
meet people that I haven't seenfor a while, we'll have
conversations and discussionsand we'll agree to meet up again
later on.
(32:21):
So I think that Tiff is animportant part of the calendar.
I look at the year and I don'tgo to as many film markets as
you do, because I've taken theview that as a producer, as
opposed to a salesperson,there's a limited amount of use
to these markets and if I needto go to LA, I generally try and
(32:42):
avoid going during AFM becauseeverybody is so crazed and
there's a billion people in townand it's much better.
You're much better going thereoutside of the market and seeing
people in their offices and amore relaxed atmosphere.
But Tiff is very much a sort ofto remind people you're around,
remind people, you're stillhere and I think that everybody,
(33:04):
even with the strike this year,there'll be okay in so far as
everyone's gonna take the viewthat it'll be resolved soon.
So it'll be like okay.
Well, it's not great right now.
We're just finishing the summer,let's see how things pan out.
So I think it'll be a weirdmarket, but it wasn't as weird
as a couple of years ago when itwas just COVID.
It was just past COVID it wascompletely desert that street,
(33:27):
is it King Street?
In front of the-.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Oh, King Street, yeah , the highest.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
It was completely empty.
There was nothing, it was justempty.
There was no one there.
It was the weirdest thing thestreet was closed but none of
the restaurants were operating.
There was no one in the streets.
It was like a ghost town.
So I think it'll be busier thanthat and I think that there'll
be a lot of people obviouslytalking about the strike.
But the independence have anopportunity right now to sort of
(33:54):
.
There's an opportunity here.
I don't quite know exactly inwhat form or how long it'll be,
but there's an opportunity to dosomething.
If you were able to have a goodproject, the people with money
still need to.
If you're an investor andyou're running an investment
fund, you've still got to giveyour investors a rate of return
(34:15):
at the end of the year.
And if there are no big moviesbeing made, then you've got to
put them into something right.
So and cast aren't working.
So if you can get actors tocome and work for you, I think
there's an opportunity here todo something interesting.
We'll see, but you know, youknow it's a case of really being
positive and trying to keep apositive attitude about what you
(34:39):
think the industry canultimately end up, you know,
giving you in the next sort of12 months or so.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
I love your positive attitude, jonathan, also because
, if you remember, the last timethat you and I went to TIP, we
were celebrating you getting thefunding for best sellers, and
your son was there and we allwent to dinner, and I'll never
forget it because he's like Ican't believe it.
It just came together just likethat and you were almost
shocked and surprised because itwas just like you had been
(35:06):
trying for so long and then allof a sudden it's like oh, it's
happening.
So maybe, teff, we'll be luckyfor both of us this year.
Speaker 3 (35:14):
Yeah, that was probably my most pleasant
experience as a film producer.
Again, I don't know quite whatit was that we did or what the
Zyg-Eye's was or whatever thehell, but the stars aligned and
it all just slotted in and itwas like, oh, that was really
easy the casting, the financing,the distribution.
(35:35):
Of course COVID came along andscrewed the whole thing up, but
the actual putting together ofthe movie he was like, wow, okay
, wouldn't it be great if it wasalways like this?
I mean, it was, and making thefilm was great.
Working with Michael Cain wasabsolutely amazing.
He was just an amazingcharacter.
It was just working with him.
I'm not usually starstruck, butworking with Michael was really.
(35:58):
He and I have become very goodfriends, in fact my wife, who's
also from Guyana, the same ashis wife.
We've remained very close andwe communicate, I don't know.
Probably once a month orsomething we always go to see
them in London.
Dear old Michael's 90 years oldnow but he's still got all his
faculties and stuff.
But yeah, it was.
Working with him was one of thehighlights of my life.
(36:22):
Somebody actually said to me myGod, jonathan, you realize
you've actually got to the stagenow where you've reached the
heights where you're workingwith Michael Cain, and I thought
to myself hmm, maybe it's morea case of Michael Cain has now
dropped to the depths where he'sworking with Jonathan Vanger.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Oh God, oh, I love your sense of humor.
Well, you know what?
The best way to sum up whatproducers are is that we still
believe in the magic, and that'swhat we're here With money.
With no money, we never say die,we always show up.
We always have some greatmemories about filmmaking, Some
(36:58):
not so great, but we have alwayssome good memories to hold on
which keeps us going.
So, you know, here's to usmaking more money.
Magic, Jonathan, and thank youso much for coming on my show.
I can't wait to do this.
It's going to be amazing.
And if any of you are notfamiliar with Jonathan's work,
first of all, if you ever wantto make a movie in Canada, he's
(37:18):
your guy Number one hello textcredits.
But second, all you have to dois look up his IMDB.
You can see his credits.
Let's support him, let's helphim make some money so he can
pay his investors back Like Ihave to pay mine back and maybe
watch those movies, even ifwe're not getting any residuals.
Maybe somewhere you can evenbuy a DVD or something.
(37:40):
That would be $2 a profit forJonathan.
It will help work up to hisdefer producing fee.
So let's support Jonathan,support me, support all the
indie producers out there, Causereally it starts from the
producers and it ends from theproducers.
And thank you again, Jonathan,for coming.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
That's a pleasure.
It's a pleasure, Alexi, anytime.
I'm being delighted to be hereand thank you very much for
taking the time to talk to me.
That's terrific.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
You are so welcome and if you like this episode,
please do subscribe, sharereview.
I need your review so that Ican get sponsors, because I am
self-funded.
I'll never stop saying that.
So if you like this episode,please do share it with your
friends.
And this is the Heart of ShowBusiness, over and out.
Welcome to the Heart of Show business.
I am your host, alexia Melochi.
I believe in great storytellingand that every successful
artist has a deep desire toexpress something from the heart
to create a ripple effect inour society.
Emotion and entertainment areclosely tied together.
My guests and I want to giveyou insider access to how the
(00:28):
film, television and musicindustry works.
We will cover Dreams Come True,the Road, life's Travel,
journey, beginnings and a lot ofinsight and inspiration in
between.
I am a successful film andtelevision entrepreneur who came
to America as a teenager topursue my show business dreams.
Are you ready for someunfiltered real talk with
(00:50):
entertainment visionaries fromall over the world?
Then let's roll sound andaction.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Well, I am so thrilled and delighted on this
new season.
I keep having amazing guests.
It hasn't even started yet, butI am recording this and you're
going to be hearing about itvery soon.
I have somebody who is not onlya friend.
I'm not even going to say howmany years because that's going
to age us both but I'm justgoing to say that his dad and my
(01:23):
mom were very good friends.
They shared many lunches inCannes on the beach.
He used to come to my birthdayparties with his brother.
He used to come visit me at theAFM.
I still have pictures where Iwas sandwiched between those two
handsome British young men thatthey took over their father's
empire in the film business.
(01:44):
They all became forced to bereckoned with.
I'm talking with one of thebanker brothers, my dear friend
Jonathan connecting all the wayfrom Canada, who has produced a
few more movies than I have andeven bigger ones, because
yesterday I did like 35 movies.
I think he did 38 and he's areally big people.
(02:04):
He's worked with JessicaJustine, he worked with Gary
Oldman, he worked with OpelWalker.
I want to hear about that.
I think it was right before hepassed away.
He worked on series and he justdid a movie that you can catch
on most streaming platforms, Ithink called Best Sellers, with
Michael Gaines and Aubrey Plaza.
You have to check that out andalso Wolf and the Lion, which is
(02:27):
a family movie, so he had me inthe word Wolf and Lion and a
girl with animals.
You're speaking to the lion.
Welcome, jonathan.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Thank you, thank you very much.
That was a very nice, kindintroduction.
Thank you very much indeed.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Well, jonathan, I mean you are a producer, but
obviously you are somebody whois a real producer, boots on the
ground kind of producer.
You're not a producer who justfinds something that just, oh,
I'm going to create and then I'mgoing to send somebody else run
the set.
You are like the person who'son the set figuring it out,
figuring the financing, how tomake movies.
(03:05):
How easy was it back then, whenyou and I first knew one
another, and how hard it istoday, without having to reach
for their vodka and having toget drunk.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Yeah Well, listen, I think that you know it's all
relative.
You know you look at it todayand you think back to the days
before how easy it was when youknow there was a video market
and then a DVD market and therewere secondary markets you could
tap into.
And I can remember sort of thelate 80s where you could almost
make anything and people wouldbuy it.
(03:40):
Amazing as that may sound, andit was.
I suppose you know, thinkingabout your time and when we
worked in the business, we wereprobably too young at that stage
really to have taken for theadvantage of that way.
You know a lot of people thatwere up and running at that time
made a very good living, werevery successful, and then some
(04:04):
of them, the clever ones,decided that time was to step
out and some others stayed inand then discovered, perhaps
like going to the casino, thatat some point you, your luck,
just runs out.
The business has changedenormously.
It really has on so many levels.
I mean you know you, in one ofyour previous podcasts you were
talking about the Cannes FilmFestival, for instance, and I
(04:26):
remember going going to Cannesas a young boy with my parents
and you know the level of thelevel of parties and the way
Cannes was back then there was,it must have been vast amounts
of money being thrown around forall sorts of things.
Cannes used to last for 10 days.
(04:47):
You could go and play golf inthe middle of the Cannes Film
Festival if you wanted to,because you know there was that
sort of a time.
I mean, now we go in there andyou kind of go in for four days.
You don't sleep, you run around, you do squeeze as many
meetings and, as you were saying, we don't even make it to the
parties anymore because you justcan't function if you do so, I
(05:08):
always I walk around the NewYork housing and I think of it
as a sort of midnight, lookingdown the beach at these parties,
thinking to myself, oh yeah,and then I think, well, no, on
second thoughts, I've got ameeting at sort of eight o'clock
tomorrow morning.
I'm not going to go into thatthing and rub shoulders with are
all probably inebriated andwould all feel rough the next
day.
(05:28):
But the market's changed.
It's a more difficult businessnow, but I always say to people
that it's a degree of difficulty.
You know we're all, asfilmmakers and film producers
and distributors and salespeople.
We're used to the challengesthat this business throws up,
and being able to adapt andchange at the times is what
(05:51):
keeps you alive.
You know, I venture to guessthat if I was a Wall Street
banker back in 2008, makingmillions of dollars every year,
really without having to get outof bed almost suddenly the
changes and the challenges thatthe financial markets found
themselves in were was asignificant swing.
(06:11):
So you went from making moneyeasily to not making money at
all.
It's always been difficult tomake money in the film business.
It's always been a challenge,and I think that you know the
term entrepreneur.
Being entrepreneurial and beingable to adapt to the
circumstances is really thefundamental thing that keeps
(06:36):
anybody going in this industry.
It really is, you know.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think you know.
Obviously we want to call outthe elephant in the room because
you know those are the good olddays where you and I could just
show a trailer to somebody orshow a script and people go, oh
yeah.
I've got money.
You know, I want to give youmoney.
Let's make a movie or let'sresell it.
And now the market is alreadydifficult post COVID.
And we were just coming out ofCOVID with thinking, oh great,
(07:02):
maybe we can start making moviesagain or TV shows.
And now we have a strike thatis four months going between
actors and writers, and the waris with AMP, tps or whatever I'm
spelling it wrong which has theword type producer in that
world.
(07:22):
And so people are thinking thatyou and I are the bad guys, the
producers are the bad guys.
So maybe clarify a little bit.
You know, why are we not thebad guys?
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Well, yes, I mean, you raise a good point.
I mean, you know, the producersversus the creators, that's.
That's the sort of way this hasbeen sort of portrayed, but as
a matter of fact, it's not thatat all.
I mean, we find ourselves asproducers is sort of a little
bit stuck in between a rock anda hard place.
You know, we also suffer fromthe fact that you know the
(07:59):
studios, the streamers, you know, in their business models.
It has an impact upon us too,you know, in a negative way.
I think that you know, thisrecent situation has obviously
been brewing for a while.
We all recognize that thesystem that we have is probably
broken for a whole variety ofreasons.
(08:22):
It needs a reboot and a rethinkacross many levels.
But my personal view is thatthis was extremely bad timing.
I think that they could quiteeasily kick the can down the
road for 12 months on this andgiven the industry a chance to
(08:42):
write itself, to put itself backin, to get its house in order,
if you like, after COVID, getitself back into some kind of
rhythm.
You know, in 2019, I produced afilm Crisis with Gary Oldman.
I went straight into doing thefilm with Michael Cain and Best
Sellers and nothing begetsbusiness more than business.
(09:03):
So you're on a roll, you've gotthings going on and so on, and
then COVID came and hit andessentially destroyed those two
films as a marketing campaign.
There was no way ofdistributing those movies.
They essentially got lost inthe whole COVID thing.
Then you come out of that andthen, in 22, I was able to
produce two more pictures.
I did a big project for Goumontwhich we filmed here in
(09:25):
Montreal, which is a $30 millionmovie, and then we followed
that up with the film.
It wasn't a sequel, but it wasanother movie called Jaguar, my
Love Again, the animal familyfilm, which is in
post-production at the moment.
And then the strike comes.
So again you get two moviesmade and everything grinds to a
halt, the difference being thistime is that, like a lot of
(09:47):
producers, we benefited at leastin Canada, at least anywhere,
and I think in many othercountries.
The government was very generouswith the arts.
We got very good loans, we gotfinancial support who were given
the means to be able to keepour operations turning over, and
if we weren't producinganything and many of us have
(10:08):
borrowed or were given grantsand loans Some of those loans
need to be repaid.
We're reaching a stage wherethose loans that were very
low-interest loans have nowtransformed themselves into
interest-bearing loans and herewe are in a situation where
there's no business coming in.
So obviously that's a bigconcern for independent
(10:31):
filmmakers like myself who haveI have five people that I employ
.
I have an overhead.
It's not a big overhead butnevertheless you spend 18 months
or two years without generatingany income.
That has a very negative impactupon your business model, which
means that money that you wouldotherwise be spending on
developing projects, trying toset up new ideas, and you have
(10:54):
to go on to hold, because themoney that you have you have to
use for keeping the lights onand paying your staff, which I
think is a very important thingto do.
So that means that when youcome out of all of this, when
eventually this strike isresolved, you can't be on the
other side.
None of your IP is beingdeveloped, so you're kind of
back to square one, but actuallyyou're worse off than square
one.
You're actually behind theeight-borne.
(11:16):
You've actually gone backwards,not forwards.
So my personal view was well,look, we should have been again.
I don't disagree with anythingthat the writers' guilds are
arguing for a SAG are arguingfor and I have my own particular
views on that, we'll discuss itin a minute but a 12-month
hiatus that's kicked the candown the road for 12 months
(11:38):
picked things up would have beena welcome thing.
It would have enabled us tokeep that ball rolling again,
because we're not really as theindependent producers, we don't
call the shots.
We kind of end up inheritingwhatever it is that everybody
finishes negotiating with, whichinvariably will mean that
making a movie or making filmswill cost more money.
That's always the end result ofthese negotiations.
(12:03):
The costs go up, the amount ofmoney available to us to make
the films doesn't increase, butthe cost of making them does,
and so, again, the impetus fallsupon us to try and find ways
and means of being able to closethat gap.
And that's sort of really where, you know, being a producer
(12:24):
comes into the fore.
You have to be able to findsolutions, be it making creative
compromises or be it beingreally, really savvy about
trying to tap into soft money,financing or co-production
structures.
There are lots of differentways of being able to skin the
cat, but you have to know whatthose things are and able to be
(12:47):
able to do them properly.
So you know, my opinion of thestrike is that, yes, it was
inevitable.
Did it have to happen now?
Probably not.
Will it have an impact upon ourbusinesses, filmmakers, going
forward?
I'm sure it will, in terms ofan increase in cost in some form
or other.
And you know, is it going tomake our lives any easier?
(13:10):
Well, the answer is clearly no,it's not.
It's not going to make ourlives any easier at all.
I always use this.
I speak about residualsparticularly, which obviously is
a sore point.
But residuals is somethingwhere I hear people arguing
saying well, if the film issuccessful, our union members
(13:32):
should benefit from the successof a project, and I agree with
that.
But then what's the definitionof success?
The definition of success inmost people's business is when
you start making a profit that'sdeemed to be a success.
I find it very difficult thatresiduals get paid before the
cost of the film has actuallybeen recouped.
(13:54):
Before I, as a producer, makeany money, before I, as a
producer, get any of my deferredfees back, before I reimburse
my bank, before I reimburse myinvestors, I'm paying out
residuals and if I haven't beenable to convince my US
distributor or my distributorsto assume those obligations to
SAG or to the writer's guild.
I get stuck with those thingseven though I have no revenue
(14:17):
coming in, and that doesn't seemto be in the spirit of what the
intention was going forward.
I understand if you go a stepfurther when you start talking
about TV exploitation and thingsbeing seen on TV and those
residuals that are derived fromthat.
And that's a little bitdifferent from what we're
talking about here is if I make$10 million of sales
(14:39):
international sales to financemy movie, I've got to pay a
residual on that Before I even.
I'm already being charged aresidual on that $10 million and
I haven't recouped the $10million it's cost to make the
movie and I haven't actuallymade any upside on this.
I think that's never gonna getresolved.
But that remains a bit of a sorepoint to me because I think
(15:01):
that's not equitable as aproducer.
We shouldn't be in a positionwhere we're effectively paying
people a profit share on a filmbefore the film was a profit.
And if you think about most ofthe movies that I do at least
anyway, because I'm working herein Canada usually the stars of
(15:23):
our movies are the SAG players.
So all of my secondary roles,my supporting roles, my extras
everybody else down the line arenot necessarily tapping into
this.
So if I'm paying an actor amillion dollars as a fee or $2
million to two actors, forexample so that's a fairly
(15:44):
decent fee by all accounts I'mhaving to defer most of my fee,
or the completion guarantortakes my fee in case of obriges
or whatever the case may be, andthen I find myself having to
pay my stars residuals and it'slike well, hold on a minute here
.
I've just paid you a milliondollars each, which is a fairly
decent payday.
I haven't paid me and made anymoney yet.
(16:05):
I haven't even reimbursedanything.
And here you are with yourunion asking me to pay residuals
to you.
There's something not rightwith that.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Jonathan, I think that there is a thing that
people saying well, you know theargument, and I have a lot of
actor friends who obviously arenot stars and they're saying
listen, we're living on $26,000a year on average.
We can't even pay for ourhealth insurance and we need
this money.
But the point is that sadreality is that those type of
(16:39):
actors are not gonna trigger ourfinancing.
So I understand that they wannaget paid and understand that
the residuals are important forthem.
But we need the actors in orderto get our financing and sadly
it is not gonna be thejourneyman who is going to make
our film Great Lit, and so itbecomes a whole big problem for
(17:01):
us, not to mention the fact thatnot many people know that.
You know, produces guilt is nota union, it's a guilt.
So we are also waiting forresiduals.
We don't have any way offighting.
We don't have medical coverageand, as you said yourself,
sometimes we may work on a filmfor five, 10 years and then, if
we look at our producer fee,that may end up being 100,000,
(17:23):
200,000.
You divide that by 10 years, itdoes become 20,000.
Which is less than what anactor would make working for
maybe five days in a whole week.
And we're working for five years.
How is that fair?
You know, cause we are in thesame predicament as them.
They keep on separating us asif, like we're like I said, we
have private yachts and planesand everything that we got
(17:47):
plenty to live on and they donot see the sacrifices that we
all make to see a movie done,because we have to deal with all
the unions and make them happy.
And why shouldn't everybodyprofit?
If somebody is there to profit,who says that a director of
photography is not essential tothe success of a movie?
(18:09):
Or a production designer?
Or an editor, why are wesingling out the writers and the
actors?
Granted, without something onthe page, you can't make
anything.
You and I, especially when itcomes to scripts, we need
something on the page for youand I would say we're gonna go
off and make a film or a seriesabout that.
But still, if there has to be apool, then everybody has to
(18:32):
enjoy it from that pool.
And, like I said, if that'sgonna happen, it could have
waited.
Because, yes, we're arguingabout AI.
Well, guess what people?
Ai has been here for years.
Now everybody's talking aboutAI.
Did we not multiply crowds whenwe are cutting costs on visual
effects and we can't afford toget 5,000 extras in a scene and
(18:54):
we only hire 50 actors.
We always use the AI.
Yes, it's true, but I also hearfrom first aidees and I don't
know if you have similar storieswhere I say a lot of these
extras that they wanna get paidbecause their image is gonna be
reused.
They've had horrible experiencewith some of the quote unquote
(19:16):
newer actors who go there andeat crab services and start
pitching scripts to the stars,steal stuff.
I mean I'm not sayingeverybody's the same, but I mean
it's very hard even for firstaidee to work with the day
players.
So where is this issue with AI?
I mean, yes, it is an issue.
(19:36):
It is mostly for writers, evenmore than it is for actors, I
think.
I think for writers it'sscarier than it is for actors.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Yeah, I agree with that.
I agree, I think, just to yourpoint earlier on.
I just wanted to make a lastcomment on the residual things.
One of the interesting thingsin Canada with Actra, who is the
acting union up here, is thatyou have the option as a
producer to buy out four yearsof residuals as part of your
budget.
So what you do is you say, look, I'm gonna pay you 135% of your
(20:08):
fee and for the next four years, or for the first cycle of the
movie, I don't need to reportyou to anything.
So the beauty with that is thatthat 135% fee is a little bit
more expensive to us going in,but I can get a tax credit on
that because it's part andparcel of the actor's salary, so
I get some relief on that.
So it's not just money out ofmy pocket that basically has to
(20:29):
come out of thin air.
Yes, it increased the cost, butthe actors in question, and it
may be that 135% that I pay,which sort of buys out
everything under the sun.
That's on the premise that thefilm is actually very successful
.
It may not be very successful,but I'm covered anyway.
So I think to myself well,surely there must be a middle
(20:51):
ground here where we could comeup with a formula where we could
say okay, well, look for theactors that aren't the stars
whether it's fixing a level ofsalary or a definition as to
what that actor is in the movie,so that all the people that are
below that level, that linelevel, whatever it's set at
would be entitled to.
You could buy out the residualupfront as part of your budget.
(21:14):
You could build it into yourfinancing.
If you're doing it in some suchway, maybe there's a tax credit
you can generate because itcomes part of a salary.
That seems to be to be a muchmore sensible way of doing it.
What it takes away, though ittakes away the sort of Seinfeld
effect and what I mean by thatis the is the notion that you
could work on a show that couldsuddenly explode and go into
(21:36):
syndication and you're makingmore money in residuals than you
ever made from actually makingthe show.
So maybe there's a differentsort of approach to that too.
I really don't know, but I thinkthat both the producers
association and the guild seemto be so far apart in terms of
(22:01):
what it is that they want.
I don't know what will beinvolved in terms of who's going
to cave first because someone'sgoing to have to give something
up.
It doesn't seem to me that themoment either parties are going
to give anything up, so it hasto get to that point, and I
don't know how long this willlast, for I think that it's
probably going to last up untilthe end of the year.
(22:22):
I think that people will beginvery soon to think well,
december's just around thecorner.
Are we really going to startanything between now and the end
of the year?
Probably not.
We may as well bump it to thenew year, and that, I think,
will slow down the negotiationprocess.
I think we're looking at theearly part of next year before
(22:43):
this is resolved, and even ifthey resolve it beforehand, by
the time it actually sort ofgets into the system and people
are able to start gearing upagain and getting things back
together again.
No one's going to startproduction in November and then
come back in January.
They're going to wait and justcome back in January.
So I think this is I think wecan pretty much put across
through 2023 as independentfilmmakers, because even getting
(23:07):
the waivers right now is taking.
I applied for a waiver on July,the 19th.
We're now what?
The 22nd of August and I stillhave nothing back.
So, and this is just to getcasting offers out.
So if it takes me that long toget that, you know how long do I
, how long is it going to be,how long does it take?
And you know we're working onproductions which sort of need
(23:31):
to go into production right now.
It doesn't give you a lot oftime.
You know it's like, okay, so Ihave to wait for six to eight
weeks before I get a waiver so Ican make an offer to an actor.
And we're sitting here, we'resitting here in September now.
So just think about it for asecond.
I hope for six weeks from thetime making application today.
That brings me up to the end ofSeptember.
Then I've got to make an offerto talent.
It's going to take me a monthto do that.
(23:52):
Let's say so now, the end ofOctober.
Am I really going to start myfinancing in November and
December?
And you know, no, it's going toget pushed until next year.
So you know, being aMontreal-based producer where we
have snow on the ground fromJanuary through to April, I'm
basically telling myself, okay,well, likelihood is we're not
going to do anything until nextspring, which is 18 months of
(24:13):
inertia, which is not great.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
No, and I'm so glad you're talking about the waiver
issue because I have somefriends of mine again who are
SAG members and they're gettingthose newsletters from the guild
saying oh, don't worry, we'rehere to support the indie
producers.
They're going to, though, theyhave to do a scholars, and we'll
give them a waiver right away.
And you're not the first personthat I hear.
It's taking forever even to geta return call.
(24:38):
Yes, maybe somebody was a star.
They're going to get the waiverright away, but you and I are
not.
And then what happens with thatwaiver?
Because you have toautomatically agree to the new
agreement, whatever thatagreement means, which means
that you cannot sell to astreamer until that agreement is
done.
Yeah, so how do you again goback to your investor and say
(25:02):
guys, thank you for giving memillions of dollars, but I'm
going to be selling your filmand, as we know, the streamer is
pretty much 80% of the sale.
At this point, for us to makeany money back is certainly not
international.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
No, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Turkey and Greece and whatever 5000 year and 5000
there.
So they're saying great, we'llgive you the waiver, but you
have to agree that you're notgoing to sell to us.
So how are we going to make ourmoney back?
And that's why I love thatyou're talking about the waiver
thing, because they thinkthey're helping us.
I honestly don't think they are.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Well, I'm not sure.
I think also that it's a littlebit the blind lead in the blind
.
I think that they don't reallyknow how to manage their way
through this.
I think they're.
Look at some of the movies thatare being given waivers.
You think to yourself wellthat's, that's odd.
How did that waiver get given?
Because aren't they financed byAmazon or Lionsgate or somebody
(25:56):
else?
The formulas that I filled out.
I have to declare that I haveno financing from any of those
entities.
So I guess there aretechnicalities to some of it and
maybe contracts that havealready been signed and deals
that have already been agreed.
I honestly don't know, but it'sa slow process and I would
imagine that SAG, they probablyare doing their best, but this
(26:18):
is a complicated and slightlyconvoluted affair.
So it's just again, the timingof it sort of isn't great, but
look, it'll sort itself out andwe'll go back to making movies
in some fashion, or rather,whatever the case may be.
But I think that you know, asproducers, it would be great if
we could find a way of beingable to talk with one voice and
(26:42):
have a consensus and be able todo things.
You know, here in Quebec, mostof the producers here are very
unhappy with the fact that ourtax credit isn't as aggressive
as it possibly could be and thelocal government here is
reluctant to increase the taxcredit.
(27:02):
But you know, if all of thelocal producers here stop
producing content in Quebecparticularly where the French
language component and the wholecultural aspect of film and
television is incrediblyimportant, if we stopped
producing something just for sixmonths, the government, purely
(27:22):
on a cultural basis, would haveto sit down and say, oh well,
look, what are we gonna do whenthere's no French language new
TV stuff, no French languagemovies coming out?
And they would invariably turnaround and say, okay, we need to
do something about the industryand probably increase the tax
credit.
But you know, producers, do youthink that I could get, you know
, 50 producers in Quebec to allgo on de facto strike?
(27:44):
There'd always be one who wouldsay, oh, this is a great
opportunity.
The 49 of them are on strike,but I'm gonna keep on producing
because I can make.
You know, I can make.
Hey, what everything else isgoing on.
So you know that you couldn'tget that consensus.
But in a utopian world, if therewas a way of getting our
independent producers to allagree on certain things.
(28:06):
We do have some influence.
We do have the ability to drivethings.
We do have the ability to have,say, you know, if you look at
what happens with you know, theAFM, for example, and some of
these other marketingorganizations, they're able to
impose certain things in certainways.
So, you know, I think there's apossibility of it.
(28:27):
But is the goodwill there?
Are the people in the businesswilling to?
Is it a case of help?
You mentioned one of yourpodcasts about people teaming up
and helping each other.
It's a nice thought.
I don't know whether or not allof our colleagues and friends
who are producers arenecessarily of that view.
(28:47):
You know it's like is it allfor one and one for all?
You know, I don't know.
I think it's much more a caseof you know, okay, well, I'll
look at what's best for me.
And if it means that you knowsomeone else that I know doesn't
end up getting what he wants,well it doesn't really matter.
But listen, who knows?
I mean, I don't want to be toocynical about it, but one does
(29:10):
wonder sometimes whether or notthere would be, you know, if you
all sat down in a room and weall have the same problems.
We all have the same concerns.
You'd have thought we could allcome up with one solution that
would fit all, but you know.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Absolutely, and you're being realistic, jonathan
, and you know I sat at the NAMP, the event I remember right
after the pandemic, and one ofthe things that I said is with
when it comes to Europeanproducers, for example, they
come together way more than saywhat is happening US, canada,
north America because they haveto do that out on necessity in
(29:45):
order to access multiple fundsto make movies.
They all have come together.
The Germans have to work withthe British, have to work with
the Italians, have to work withthe Spaniards, even when it
comes to series, they'll pick upsomething.
They're gonna need anotherbroadcaster.
It can be just Sky that does itall.
It can be just the BBC.
So they are coming and they'reall contributing on the
(30:06):
storytelling aspect.
They're all contributing andchiming in and they're not
killing each other.
So there's something to be saidabout them all and I think we
you and I are gonna be inToronto and I am so excited
because, of course, I'm gonna doa podcast after all this and
I'm gonna talk about all ouradventures there.
We'll see how Toronto's gonnapan out.
(30:28):
I mean, what are your thoughts?
Is the last thoughts of like usgoing to a market where there's
hardly any red carpets.
There's hardly any starpresence, where nobody can
really pitch anything with stars.
What do you think is gonnahappen?
Why are we even going toToronto?
Speaker 3 (30:50):
Well, tiff is always a bit like the first day back at
school, right?
I always say it's a little bitlike, you know, when you finish
a summer holiday you're allbrown and you're healthy and
you're relaxed and you go backto school and you're thrilled to
see all your friends and thenby the time AFM runs around in
November, we're all green andfed up and tired and exhausted
again.
So Tiff's always great becauseeveryone looks great, everyone
(31:13):
looks fresh, everyone's in agood mood, everyone's optimistic
.
I really like going there.
I find there's a really goodvibe to the place.
It's a good festival too.
The festival is well run and Ithink it's.
If you're a filmgoer and ifsomebody wants to see movies, I
think Tiff is one of the bestfilm festivals out there.
From a professional perspective, tiff is very different from a
(31:40):
lot of the other markets becausethere isn't that sort of
pressure where you kind of feelthat you need to come away with
something.
It's more like a sort of hi,how are you?
Like I said, first day back atschool kind of thing.
This year, without the actors,without the red carpets, it'll
(32:01):
take away some of the glitz ofthe thing, but it's almost as if
you took away the glitz fromCannes, you'd still have the
film market, you'd still havemeetings, people would still be
there and people like you and Iwill sit down, we'll talk, I'll
meet people that I haven't seenfor a while, we'll have
conversations and discussionsand we'll agree to meet up again
later on.
(32:21):
So I think that Tiff is animportant part of the calendar.
I look at the year and I don'tgo to as many film markets as
you do, because I've taken theview that as a producer, as
opposed to a salesperson,there's a limited amount of use
to these markets and if I needto go to LA, I generally try and
(32:42):
avoid going during AFM becauseeverybody is so crazed and
there's a billion people in townand it's much better.
You're much better going thereoutside of the market and seeing
people in their offices and amore relaxed atmosphere.
But Tiff is very much a sort ofto remind people you're around,
remind people, you're stillhere and I think that everybody,
(33:04):
even with the strike this year,there'll be okay in so far as
everyone's gonna take the viewthat it'll be resolved soon.
So it'll be like okay.
Well, it's not great right now.
We're just finishing the summer,let's see how things pan out.
So I think it'll be a weirdmarket, but it wasn't as weird
as a couple of years ago when itwas just COVID.
It was just past COVID it wascompletely desert that street,
(33:27):
is it King Street?
In front of the-.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Oh, King Street, yeah , the highest.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
It was completely empty.
There was nothing, it was justempty.
There was no one there.
It was the weirdest thing thestreet was closed but none of
the restaurants were operating.
There was no one in the streets.
It was like a ghost town.
So I think it'll be busier thanthat and I think that there'll
be a lot of people obviouslytalking about the strike.
But the independence have anopportunity right now to sort of
(33:54):
.
There's an opportunity here.
I don't quite know exactly inwhat form or how long it'll be,
but there's an opportunity to dosomething.
If you were able to have a goodproject, the people with money
still need to.
If you're an investor andyou're running an investment
fund, you've still got to giveyour investors a rate of return
(34:15):
at the end of the year.
And if there are no big moviesbeing made, then you've got to
put them into something right.
So and cast aren't working.
So if you can get actors tocome and work for you, I think
there's an opportunity here todo something interesting.
We'll see, but you know, youknow it's a case of really being
positive and trying to keep apositive attitude about what you
(34:39):
think the industry canultimately end up, you know,
giving you in the next sort of12 months or so.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
I love your positive attitude, jonathan, also because
, if you remember, the last timethat you and I went to TIP, we
were celebrating you getting thefunding for best sellers, and
your son was there and we allwent to dinner, and I'll never
forget it because he's like Ican't believe it.
It just came together just likethat and you were almost
shocked and surprised because itwas just like you had been
(35:06):
trying for so long and then allof a sudden it's like oh, it's
happening.
So maybe, teff, we'll be luckyfor both of us this year.
Speaker 3 (35:14):
Yeah, that was probably my most pleasant
experience as a film producer.
Again, I don't know quite whatit was that we did or what the
Zyg-Eye's was or whatever thehell, but the stars aligned and
it all just slotted in and itwas like, oh, that was really
easy the casting, the financing,the distribution.
(35:35):
Of course COVID came along andscrewed the whole thing up, but
the actual putting together ofthe movie he was like, wow, okay
, wouldn't it be great if it wasalways like this?
I mean, it was, and making thefilm was great.
Working with Michael Cain wasabsolutely amazing.
He was just an amazingcharacter.
It was just working with him.
I'm not usually starstruck, butworking with Michael was really.
(35:58):
He and I have become very goodfriends, in fact my wife, who's
also from Guyana, the same ashis wife.
We've remained very close andwe communicate, I don't know.
Probably once a month orsomething we always go to see
them in London.
Dear old Michael's 90 years oldnow but he's still got all his
faculties and stuff.
But yeah, it was.
Working with him was one of thehighlights of my life.
(36:22):
Somebody actually said to me myGod, jonathan, you realize
you've actually got to the stagenow where you've reached the
heights where you're workingwith Michael Cain, and I thought
to myself hmm, maybe it's morea case of Michael Cain has now
dropped to the depths where he'sworking with Jonathan Vanger.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Oh God, oh, I love your sense of humor.
Well, you know what?
The best way to sum up whatproducers are is that we still
believe in the magic, and that'swhat we're here With money.
With no money, we never say die,we always show up.
We always have some greatmemories about filmmaking, Some
(36:58):
not so great, but we have alwayssome good memories to hold on
which keeps us going.
So, you know, here's to usmaking more money.
Magic, Jonathan, and thank youso much for coming on my show.
I can't wait to do this.
It's going to be amazing.
And if any of you are notfamiliar with Jonathan's work,
first of all, if you ever wantto make a movie in Canada, he's
(37:18):
your guy Number one hello textcredits.
But second, all you have to dois look up his IMDB.
You can see his credits.
Let's support him, let's helphim make some money so he can
pay his investors back Like Ihave to pay mine back and maybe
watch those movies, even ifwe're not getting any residuals.
Maybe somewhere you can evenbuy a DVD or something.
(37:40):
That would be $2 a profit forJonathan.
It will help work up to hisdefer producing fee.
So let's support Jonathan,support me, support all the
indie producers out there, Causereally it starts from the
producers and it ends from theproducers.
And thank you again, Jonathan,for coming.
Speaker 3 (37:58):
That's a pleasure.
It's a pleasure, Alexi, anytime.
I'm being delighted to be hereand thank you very much for
taking the time to talk to me.
That's terrific.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
You are so welcome and if you like this episode,
please do subscribe, sharereview.
I need your review so that Ican get sponsors, because I am
self-funded.
I'll never stop saying that.
So if you like this episode,please do share it with your
friends.
And this is the Heart of ShowBusiness, over and out.
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