May 9, 2024 • 7 mins
In this episode, hosts Bo Motlagh and Josh Smith explain the meaning of the hidden chasm for enterprise software organizations, and what to expect in future episodes as they seek to uncover the root causes of the most common technical challenges for companies entering significant growth stages, often via M&A.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Josh (00:12):
You're listening to the hidden chasm, a podcast where we
speak with leaders of softwareenterprise companies to
investigate the impact thatlegacy technology has on growth
and innovation. The hidden chasmis sponsored by UnitedFX, where
we help companies break freefrom legacy tech, improve
retention, and empower m and agrowth. Learn more at
unitedeffects.com.
Bo (00:30):
Josh. How are you, man?
Josh (00:33):
How am I? I'm doing okay. It's getting warmer. Seasons get
warmer up here in below NewEngland. I don't think you can
call Pennsylvania New England.
So
Bo (00:42):
I don't think you can either. Yeah. But it is warmer.
It's nice. Yeah.
I thought maybe we should take aminute and tell people what this
whole hidden podcast thing we'redoing is, especially since we
just recorded an episode. Yeah.
Josh (00:55):
And that's said, like, 50 times in that episode. So, yeah,
we should probably explain.
Bo (01:00):
Hidden chasm.
Josh (01:01):
Oh my gosh. Do you wanna start, or shall I start? You
start. Oh my god. Okay.
So problems are complicated. SoBo and I realized we worked for
a long time when we worked forenterprise organizations, of
course, predominantly on theEast Coast. And, of course, we
are pattern mappers. Me and thedesign user experience product
(01:22):
space and then Bo in thearchitecture product space,
We've noticed that whencompanies scale to a certain
degree,
to a certain size, and they're entering a
very specific kind of growth stage. Although I say
specific, it's common. Theystart hitting walls, and these
walls come from different placesin the organization, and they
(01:45):
are seemingly disconnectedseemingly disconnect. And you
and I have seen this happen overand over. Yeah.
And then we've identified,though, that they are not as
disconnected as we all assume,that there is potentially a
central reason, a core symptom,and we are exploring what that
(02:08):
core symptom is. The reason wecall it hidden chasm is because
these symptoms appear soseemingly disconnected. They're
hard to identify when they'rehappening. They're hard to
correlate. And, usually, you andI have noticed at least that
organizations don't realizewhat's happening until they've
(02:29):
hit these walls, until they havefound themselves in this ditch.
And at that point, it's notcrossing a chasm. It's climbing
out of it. You and I have beenracking our brains about this.
How is it that the answer, thesolution, the accepted solution
today is we're just gonna haveto climb out of it when we're in
(02:51):
it. So Yeah.
We're exploring how can we speakwith different folks in the
industry so that we can makewhat is hidden less hidden and
allow people to identify thisissue earlier than when they're
in it.
Bo (03:03):
100%. Yeah. I mean, we've obviously been learning about
the chasm for a while, and we'vecoined this term. But this
podcast is really just anopportunity to, like Josh said,
talk to people who have been init, who've come out of it,
who've successfully crossed itsomehow, get these perspectives
across different roles. Ourfirst podcast, which we've
(03:27):
already actually put out there,Natasha Walden, check it out.
That's a really coolconversation. She's a product
leader, you know, productexecutive, giving us her story.
We'll be talking to more folkslike her, but we'll also be
talking to technologists. We'llbe talking to sales executives
and strategy in general andconsultants. Agile
(03:48):
transformation comes up a lot,so that'll be something we'll
check out as well to understandwhere that fits.
And we're really just interestedin understanding the nuances.
It's easy to talk about this andsay, yeah. There's this thing.
Companies hit it. You mightnotice problems like retention
to start.
You know, like Josh said, you'renot really connecting the dots
about what the issues are. Hint,there's a lot of tech debt and
(04:11):
technology issues associated.Yes. And that's great. But
there's nuances to this, whichare really interesting that pop
up as a result of individualexperiences.
We're going to dig into that.We're going to talk to these
folks and get a sense of thatand sort of round out that story
here on this podcast, and thenwe'll see where it goes from
there. Does that make sense?
Josh (04:28):
Yeah. It's not issues in the start up to SMB space with
mid market space. When we talkabout these issues, we talk
about it in the context of yourmid market enterprise and you're
looking for you you have alarger scale opportunity ahead
of you, and you can't hit thatlarger scale opportunity. So I
wanna be clear that the focus isgrowth to agree when you're an
(04:49):
organization that you're muchlarger in scale than you are a
startup
in the market.
Bo (04:53):
Yeah. Absolutely. And a lot of the challenges challenges is
maybe the wrong word, theindicators that we'll end up
talking about. They're normal inearly stages, in the good years
when everything is just, how doyou get traction? How do you
bring you know, revenue in?
When you're a startup or even inthe first, like, 5 years or so
longer, especially if you'recarving out a market, There's a
(05:16):
lot of shortcuts that happen.There's a lot of organic growth,
and that's very normal. It's thecumulative effect of that when
it's not strategicallyaddressed. And when a company
reaches a certain size andthey're looking for that next
jump, that next enterprisemilestone, whether that's
100,000,000 or 200,000,000 orwhatever, or an exit,
(05:38):
acquisition, PE, IPO, thatmoment of why is this so hard
and beginning to sort of feelthe cumulative impact of
potentially years of theseindicators piling up because, as
Josh said, they're notnecessarily correlated, so you
don't see it always coming,which is why it's hidden. That's
the sweet spot.
That's the really interestingstory that I think we'd like to
(06:01):
dive into.
Josh (06:02):
Yeah.
Yeah. And we'll tackle it from all different perspectives,
from all different lines of business. And some examples
of those are your companystarting to build more products,
and you're very excited. All ofa sudden, out of nowhere, your
net revenue retention starts todecline. You're saying, what's
going on? Why?
We have everything planned out.Or why is sales starting to
struggle out of nowhere at thisstage where now we're growing
(06:25):
rapidly? I thought it would beeasy from here on out. And we
look at those issues with realstories, and we're going to
attempt to try and find commonreasons and do some cause
analysis and help explain whyfolks hit these walls at these
first stages.
Bo (06:45):
Yep. So we didn't say it already. I am Beau Montlag. That
is Josh Smith. And this will bethe Hidden Chasm Podcast.
Yeah.
Josh (06:54):
Thanks for listening to the Hidden Chasm Podcast with
your hosts, Beau Motlawn andJosh Smith, and sponsored by
UnitedFX. We hope you enjoyedour deep dive exploring the
impact of legacy technology onenterprise agility. Follow along
as we explore this further bysubscribing to the podcast at
thehiddenchasm.com. Thanksagain, and we'll see you next
time.
You're listening to the hidden chasm, a podcast where we
speak with leaders of softwareenterprise companies to
investigate the impact thatlegacy technology has on growth
and innovation. The hidden chasmis sponsored by UnitedFX, where
we help companies break freefrom legacy tech, improve
retention, and empower m and agrowth. Learn more at
unitedeffects.com.
Bo (00:30):
Josh. How are you, man?
Josh (00:33):
How am I? I'm doing okay. It's getting warmer. Seasons get
warmer up here in below NewEngland. I don't think you can
call Pennsylvania New England.
So
Bo (00:42):
I don't think you can either. Yeah. But it is warmer.
It's nice. Yeah.
I thought maybe we should take aminute and tell people what this
whole hidden podcast thing we'redoing is, especially since we
just recorded an episode. Yeah.
Josh (00:55):
And that's said, like, 50 times in that episode. So, yeah,
we should probably explain.
Bo (01:00):
Hidden chasm.
Josh (01:01):
Oh my gosh. Do you wanna start, or shall I start? You
start. Oh my god. Okay.
So problems are complicated. SoBo and I realized we worked for
a long time when we worked forenterprise organizations, of
course, predominantly on theEast Coast. And, of course, we
are pattern mappers. Me and thedesign user experience product
(01:22):
space and then Bo in thearchitecture product space,
We've noticed that whencompanies scale to a certain
degree,
to a certain size, and they're entering a
very specific kind of growth stage. Although I say
specific, it's common. Theystart hitting walls, and these
walls come from different placesin the organization, and they
(01:45):
are seemingly disconnectedseemingly disconnect. And you
and I have seen this happen overand over. Yeah.
And then we've identified,though, that they are not as
disconnected as we all assume,that there is potentially a
central reason, a core symptom,and we are exploring what that
(02:08):
core symptom is. The reason wecall it hidden chasm is because
these symptoms appear soseemingly disconnected. They're
hard to identify when they'rehappening. They're hard to
correlate. And, usually, you andI have noticed at least that
organizations don't realizewhat's happening until they've
(02:29):
hit these walls, until they havefound themselves in this ditch.
And at that point, it's notcrossing a chasm. It's climbing
out of it. You and I have beenracking our brains about this.
How is it that the answer, thesolution, the accepted solution
today is we're just gonna haveto climb out of it when we're in
(02:51):
it. So Yeah.
We're exploring how can we speakwith different folks in the
industry so that we can makewhat is hidden less hidden and
allow people to identify thisissue earlier than when they're
in it.
Bo (03:03):
100%. Yeah. I mean, we've obviously been learning about
the chasm for a while, and we'vecoined this term. But this
podcast is really just anopportunity to, like Josh said,
talk to people who have been init, who've come out of it,
who've successfully crossed itsomehow, get these perspectives
across different roles. Ourfirst podcast, which we've
(03:27):
already actually put out there,Natasha Walden, check it out.
That's a really coolconversation. She's a product
leader, you know, productexecutive, giving us her story.
We'll be talking to more folkslike her, but we'll also be
talking to technologists. We'llbe talking to sales executives
and strategy in general andconsultants. Agile
(03:48):
transformation comes up a lot,so that'll be something we'll
check out as well to understandwhere that fits.
And we're really just interestedin understanding the nuances.
It's easy to talk about this andsay, yeah. There's this thing.
Companies hit it. You mightnotice problems like retention
to start.
You know, like Josh said, you'renot really connecting the dots
about what the issues are. Hint,there's a lot of tech debt and
(04:11):
technology issues associated.Yes. And that's great. But
there's nuances to this, whichare really interesting that pop
up as a result of individualexperiences.
We're going to dig into that.We're going to talk to these
folks and get a sense of thatand sort of round out that story
here on this podcast, and thenwe'll see where it goes from
there. Does that make sense?
Josh (04:28):
Yeah. It's not issues in the start up to SMB space with
mid market space. When we talkabout these issues, we talk
about it in the context of yourmid market enterprise and you're
looking for you you have alarger scale opportunity ahead
of you, and you can't hit thatlarger scale opportunity. So I
wanna be clear that the focus isgrowth to agree when you're an
(04:49):
organization that you're muchlarger in scale than you are a
startup
in the market.
Bo (04:53):
Yeah. Absolutely. And a lot of the challenges challenges is
maybe the wrong word, theindicators that we'll end up
talking about. They're normal inearly stages, in the good years
when everything is just, how doyou get traction? How do you
bring you know, revenue in?
When you're a startup or even inthe first, like, 5 years or so
longer, especially if you'recarving out a market, There's a
(05:16):
lot of shortcuts that happen.There's a lot of organic growth,
and that's very normal. It's thecumulative effect of that when
it's not strategicallyaddressed. And when a company
reaches a certain size andthey're looking for that next
jump, that next enterprisemilestone, whether that's
100,000,000 or 200,000,000 orwhatever, or an exit,
(05:38):
acquisition, PE, IPO, thatmoment of why is this so hard
and beginning to sort of feelthe cumulative impact of
potentially years of theseindicators piling up because, as
Josh said, they're notnecessarily correlated, so you
don't see it always coming,which is why it's hidden. That's
the sweet spot.
That's the really interestingstory that I think we'd like to
(06:01):
dive into.
Josh (06:02):
Yeah.
Yeah. And we'll tackle it from all different perspectives,
from all different lines of business. And some examples
of those are your companystarting to build more products,
and you're very excited. All ofa sudden, out of nowhere, your
net revenue retention starts todecline. You're saying, what's
going on? Why?
We have everything planned out.Or why is sales starting to
struggle out of nowhere at thisstage where now we're growing
(06:25):
rapidly? I thought it would beeasy from here on out. And we
look at those issues with realstories, and we're going to
attempt to try and find commonreasons and do some cause
analysis and help explain whyfolks hit these walls at these
first stages.
Bo (06:45):
Yep. So we didn't say it already. I am Beau Montlag. That
is Josh Smith. And this will bethe Hidden Chasm Podcast.
Yeah.
Josh (06:54):
Thanks for listening to the Hidden Chasm Podcast with
your hosts, Beau Motlawn andJosh Smith, and sponsored by
UnitedFX. We hope you enjoyedour deep dive exploring the
impact of legacy technology onenterprise agility. Follow along
as we explore this further bysubscribing to the podcast at
thehiddenchasm.com. Thanksagain, and we'll see you next
time.
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