September 23, 2025 • 29 mins
The recent Salesforce layoffs shook the tech world—over 4,000 jobs cut globally. But if you’re impacted, this isn’t the end of your career—it could be the turning point. In this episode of The Hiring Edge by Joshforce, Josh Matthews is joined by Michael Vukovich (CEO, Wise Wolves) and Peter Ganza to deliver practical, proven strategies to help Salesforce professionals navigate layoffs and land their next opportunity.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
- Why jumping to another tech giant (like IBM or Oracle) may not be your best move
- How mid-sized companies can value your enterprise experience more than Fortune 500s
- Smart ways to leverage your Salesforce brand on platforms like LinkedIn, Upwork, and Fiverr
- Networking strategies that actually open doors (without coming across as desperate)
- Why venting on LinkedIn could sabotage your job search—and what to do instead
- How to reframe layoffs as an opportunity to upskill and reposition your career
- The small but powerful actions—like thank-you notes—that set candidates apart
- Mindset shifts to process the change and move forward with confidence
If you’ve been affected by layoffs, this conversation offers both immediate tactics and long-term career management advice.
👉 Subscribe for more hiring insights from Joshforce and The Hiring Edge.
👉 Watch related episodes on navigating layoffs and career pivots.
#SalesforceCareers #Layoffs2025 #TechJobs #CareerAdvice
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Salesforce layoffs always a touchy subject, always
a divisive topic, and todaywe're trying to do something
more than just create moredivision and outrage.
We're actually going to bringsome real solutions to those of
you who have been impacted.
We're going to hit you with afew, I think, very helpful
things that you can do rightaway.
(00:21):
But if you really want the bigcontent, the how do I actually
secure my career long term thesesorts of things, you're going
to want to stick around forwhat's going to be a very lively
and interesting discussion.
Welcome to the Hiring Edge, thepodcast helping leaders
navigate the age of AI, createteams that thrive and build a
workplace people never want toleave.
(00:43):
So first of all, let's talkabout numbers.
I think it was like rightaround the 4th or 5th of
September, salesforce announced4,000 layoffs and people started
to lose their freaking mindslike they didn't see it coming.
God knows why they didn't seeit coming.
I mean, we've all just beentalking about agent force for
(01:06):
over a year now, right, and youknow some of the things.
I don't want to get too intothis right now, but some of the
things I was seeing is like oh,you know, benioff is out of
touch and his comments weren'tappreciated and he talked about
headcount instead of humans,like okay.
And he talked about headcountinstead of humans, like okay,
fair enough, can we move on andstart helping people?
(01:27):
Yes, we can.
So first thing is, let's getthis in perspective 6,500 people
have been employed not employedbut hired in the last four
years by Salesforce.
They are going to be letting goabout 3,500 or so of them,
upwards of 4,000.
I think it's 4,000 globally.
Is that right, michael?
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Yeah, approximately About 4,000 globally.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Okay, all right, I'm going to give two or three of my
thoughts and then we're goingto go round, robin, flesh this
out and hopefully get to thebottom of this so that you can
walk away from this with somevery real tactical things you
can do and some mind shiftchanges that will only enhance
your career or the people thatyou care about.
(02:12):
So my number one is don't chaseanother giant immediately.
Don't go straight fromSalesforce to IBM or to Oracle
right, these are large companies.
They're all not only looking atautomation for customer support
.
They can afford it.
They can afford that transition, right.
(02:33):
Instead, you're going to wantto look at more mid-sized
companies.
Mid-sized companies where theycan actually elevate their
department.
Because of your big, large techcompany experience, what do you
guys think about that?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
I'll go if it's alright, and I want to step on
Peter's toes here.
Go ahead, michael.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
He lost all of his toes 10 years ago.
He's fine.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Different story for a different podcast, though,
speaking for myself, I couldn'tagree with that more, and just
to bring that as some additionalreal world experience.
In my career, having been inthe Salesforce space for the
last 15 years I used to work ata company called Blue Wolf,
which many of you listening tothis podcast might know was one
(03:20):
of the first ever sorry, thefirst ever Salesforce partner.
If any of my former colleagueswatching this one, make sure I
get that right First everSalesforce partner.
And then they were ultimatelyacquired by IBM.
Now what's interesting is whenI introduce myself to potential
prospects today, I lead with IBMBecause that is a brand that
people know, that peoplerecognize as opposed to Blue
(03:41):
Wolf, and so no offense to myBlue Wolf colleagues, but IBM
generally stands out a lot moreand people the prospects in
particular oftentimes feel a lotof comfort in knowing that
they're working and talking tosomebody who had worked with
large scale Fortune 500companies.
So that's a real brand thatindividuals who unfortunately
(04:04):
suffered from these layoffs areable to take with them as almost
a badge of sorts as they gointo future interviews.
So, yeah, I know you mentionedmedium-sized businesses, josh.
I mean I wouldn't evendifferentiate.
You know even small businessesas well.
I think would really appreciatesomebody with something like a
Salesforce experience.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Absolutely.
I mean, we're talking abouthighly trained employees, right,
they don't just hire anybody.
They're kind of picky, somedepartments more than others.
But one of the things you cando is really tap into the global
gig economy strategically onyour own.
You can jump on Upwork, fiverr,turing there are a number of
(04:47):
platforms.
So if you want some immediatework hopefully it takes a little
bit of time to build a rep, butif you want some immediate help
, you can leverage the nameSalesforce.
You can say, instead of sayingsupport specialist, you could
say ex-Salesforce supportspecialist specialist.
(05:07):
You could say ex-Salesforcesupport specialist, right,
ex-oracle tier two supportspecialist.
That's going to give you someimmediate credibility.
Right, it's going to answermore questions than it asks.
And that's what you want to do.
You want people to understandyou.
Let's kick it over to you,michael.
I know that you've got someideas on what people can do in
this situation.
What's ideas on what people cando in this situation?
What's something else thatpeople can do?
Speaker 2 (05:29):
I'm a big believer in network, especially in today's
day and age.
There's tons of talking aboutother news stories out recently
about a lot of deep fakeapplications being submitted for
job profiles online and thingslike that.
I think people are ever more Idon't want to call it
(05:49):
adversarial, but distrusting ofjust the random resume that
lands in the inbox in responseto a job posting online.
I've been seeing a lot of peoplethat have been really forward
and open and honest to theirnetwork in the form of LinkedIn,
as well as what I imagine theform of LinkedIn, as well as
what I imagine to be othersocial networks as well in
communicating or articulatingtheir journey as they go through
(06:11):
the respective layoff and thejob evaluation and moving
forward, and so I would highlyrecommend looking closely at the
individuals, the people thatyou've built a strong
relationship with over thecourse of your work career
individuals the people thatyou've built a strong
relationship with over thecourse of your work career.
So, if you are, unfortunately,somebody who suffered from this
or any layoff, but in thisparticular layoff, I would look
(06:32):
at, of course, the people thatare going through the same thing
.
I cross-share and understandideas and learn from them, and
then, on the opposite side, as acustomer support specialist,
you know people that are stillemployed at Salesforce.
They are hiring still.
They have new jobs, right, Josh, that they are still hiring for
over the course of the next 12months.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Yeah, I mean they've hired, I think, 1,800 people in
the last 12 months.
It's not all doom and gloom,it's more hiring.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Oh, they're hiring for different roles, right, so
you could upskill and then getreferred right back into the
same organization, right?
Potentially even with apotential promotion, or, of
course, other people that havecome and gone and left and went
on to other roles at differentorganizations.
Lean on that network as a meansto really find not just another
(07:23):
job, but, if you have theluxury quote, unquote luxury to
do so, to try to find anopportunity that you really feel
like aligns with your not justyour short term needs of like a
paycheck, but also your mediumand long term needs from a
career standpoint.
Your network's going to beinvaluable in helping you find
that yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
And here's the good news.
Here's the good news.
Guys Like of these positionsaren't gone until November.
It's not like everyone just gotwalked to the door a week ago
or eight, nine days ago.
It didn't happen like that, solet's.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
LinkedIn, right, perfect example.
We've all.
We all get.
You know, I get a few a week.
Oh, I'm you know.
Now I'm you know, on the market.
I'm looking for this type of arole, right In a message that's
not nearly as powerful as hey,let's catch up and meet and and
(08:16):
actually see the person and notlead with the.
You know, oh, I just lost myjob and I'm looking for the next
role.
I'm desperate, but I just wantto catch up.
Do you have a booking link?
Here's my booking link.
Yeah, I'll do that, and that isa whole different level of just
communication and networking.
That's, frankly, one of thebest things I can suggest,
because it makes a difference.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
It does.
It's a huge difference.
The one thing I would add is,yeah, you can lead with like hey
, catch up, but before themeeting let them know what it's
about.
No one wants to feel ambushed,so be careful.
Like depends on how busy theperson is.
Just make sure that they bookthe time, but then let them know
before you meet.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
What's going on, right?
I think, yeah, I, if you know,as as humans, we oftentimes try
to shy away from the idea ofasking for help because we feel
like it has a negativeperception of us in terms of our
ability and our skill to kindof pull ourselves up by the
bootstraps and get it done right.
But that's right.
The reality is like there's asaying it takes a village,
(09:26):
everything kind of takes avillage, like a human being, the
village and and people reallyactually appreciate, I'll be
honest, like there's there, oneof the top five things I love to
do in this world is find otherpeople.
It's like it's it's.
It's a really fulfilling thingto do.
I know you, I wouldn't knowanything about it, I don't make
any money on it, josh, butanyway.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Hey, you know what?
Nine times out of 10, I don'teither.
Yeah, it's just a fulfillingactivity to perform, to have a
real direct impact with people.
This is something reallyimportant.
Okay, pay attention to yourcareer.
Pay attention to your career.
Don't be shocked when a companythat is introducing and
announced at Dreamforce lastyear and then gave a
(10:12):
demonstration who was it?
Land's End Eddie Bauer, it wasLL Bean, it was like one of
these clothing companies andthey showed.
I sat there, I was there in thefreaking theater and they
showed how you don't needcustomer support anymore.
Like I watched it.
Right?
(10:32):
Don't work for a company andthen act shocked when the thing
that they have just designed,which is designed to edge you
out, edges you out.
You can act surprised that youweren't paying attention, but
don't act shocked when thecompany that says they're going
to go do something, and thenthey go and do it, and now
you're indignant.
(10:52):
I think that's just silly.
You, who are struggling rightnow, who know that your time at
Salesforce is coming to an end,are responsible for your own
career.
It is not the Ohana, it's notMark Benioff.
After all, he's the one whocreated the job that you've been
feeding your family on for anumber of years or months, or
even over a decade, if not.
But for him, you would eithernot be working or be working
(11:15):
somewhere else.
Let's not get kind of nastyhere.
Let's take some personalownership.
Yes, I'm in customer service.
Yes, we have a product.
Yes, it's designed to replaceme.
So what am I going to do aboutit?
Now Be one of the first peopleto iterate what direction your
career is going.
Don't be the one who's shockedon Labor Day when you see some
(11:36):
announcement that your job'sgoing away.
And what's interesting?
I found this really interesting.
Know who are the most indignantpeople?
Shocked, outraged Americans.
Big, freaking surprise.
Guess who's not.
Guess.
Who kept it professional onLinkedIn, practically to a T.
Everyone in India.
(11:58):
Everyone in India polite,professional took it on the chin
.
Not the best situation, butthey're going to do something
about it.
What they didn't do is have anairing of the grievances.
Okay, like they didn't have todo that in public, and you don't
either.
So don't be caught in that.
And I'm not telling.
(12:18):
I'm not trying to silenceanyone.
I'm just trying to help youprotect your career, because it
matters.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Yeah, I think it's.
I think it is important toremember that employers are
going to be looking at yourprofile before they hire you.
At least I will.
I don't know about everybodyelse, I suppose but look at what
they want to post.
And if people see that you areshitposting your former employer
(12:50):
online and that is going to, asas a potential future employer,
look somewhat suspicious, likeit's just not like as as an
individual who's going to bringyou on board, even just even
purely from like a potentialheadache, right, remember, I
mean, ultimately, people have toremember you're trying to
differentiate yourself amongst asea of individuals who are
(13:14):
applying to jobs every it's.
It's.
It's about trying to find everylittle edge that you can find.
Going from I know, I know theperson that used to work with
three jobs ago.
All the way to, I shaved and Iwore a suit to the interview.
All the way to, I sent a thankyou letter.
(13:35):
All the way to don't shitpostyour former boss, Right, like
I'm also.
Like you don't even want toshut out Salesforce, right?
You're there till November.
You can still find another jobwithin the organization.
So, like you, don't want to belike shitposting, of course,
like ship hosting.
That's right, your currentemployer.
That's right, it's your currentemployer.
Yeah, it's about trying to addup all these little edges that
(13:55):
you can get in pursuit of makingsure that you know, come
November 1, you are wellpositioned and that you have
another lined up.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Always try to think about the outcome of your action
.
If it's going to be negative atall, why Is it going to benefit
you?
Right?
That's really the best way tothink about it.
I know that's easy to say, butsometimes it can be that simple.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Does it serve your future self.
It serves your immediate selfbecause you're going to get a
dopamine hit when you keeplogging into LinkedIn 20 times
that day to see how many peopleliked your comment.
Like, yeah, you're going to geta little dopamine hit.
That's going to go away and thewhole thread's probably going
to be forgotten, except untilsomeone like me or Michael or
some other hiring manager startslooking around and there's just
(14:45):
too many people available.
Today, one of my recruitersshared a candidate with me.
I'm like.
I looked at him.
Oh yeah, he looks good.
Oh, he worked there.
Oh, I know those guys.
Oh, I know that business owner.
He's been on the show a bunchof times, by the way, and I shot
him both a quick message.
Hey, is this guy any good?
Absolutely, totally vouch forhim.
He's amazing.
He's incredible.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
I can text these same two guys or gals or any of my
connections and say, hey, itlooks like you guys work
together.
What do you know it's like?
Oh yeah, just run, run.
Right, michael, what else doyou have for the folks out there
?
What's something that couldhelp them?
Handful of connections thatwent through layoffs recently
and I think one of the theimpressive thing that I've seen
people doing is, of course,communicating and talking about
their journey as a means to both, I feel, expand their reach as
(15:42):
well as uplift others.
I think that people want to hirepeople that are trying to do
that, that are trying to tobring others up in in the world
speaking but one of the waysthat I feel like people can,
that I feel like has actionableresults as it pertains to
finding a new job, is I thinkeverybody who's going through
this experience should try tofind four to six to ten hours
(16:04):
over the course of the nextcouple of weeks and just record
ad nauseum, like in a videoformat similar to this, their
experience and what they've doneand their top accomplishments
they feel like they achievedduring their tenure at
Salesforce or even broadlywithin their career.
Take all of that, take thosetranscripts, use AI as a weapon
(16:26):
load in the chat GPT and thensay write me 20 LinkedIn posts
that speak to that are going tobe high performing, that speak
to who I am as an individual,the value that I can bring to an
organization, and specificanecdotes and successes that
I've had throughout my career.
And you can take those postsand tweak it and modify it as
(16:48):
you feel.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
And you should, you should, you should, you should.
If it doesn't sound like youguys, if it does not sound like
you and if you have green checkmarks, don't do it.
I agree, don't do it.
Train the agent to sound likeyou.
At least try that, yeah why Ilike recording myself?
Speaker 2 (17:10):
actually, because I really I feel like it's much
more effective at like pickingup on your, your terminology,
your words, your personalitywhen it has like you actually
talking to it as much aspossible and then use that as a
means to like engage with otherpeople as well as market
yourself.
I think that's, frankly, aninvaluable, uh like step that
you could take towards liketrying to find your next
(17:32):
opportunity and also communicateto the world that, yeah, you're
open for business and assomeone who, by the way, if you
still actually have a job I hopenobody at Wise Wolves is
watching this, by the way but Ithink that everybody, every
three years at a minimum, shouldcheck their market, which means
you should, every three years,go out into the market.
(17:52):
You should see what your valueis worth, what other
opportunities that are out there, and you should consider taking
advantage of thoseopportunities.
Or you should go back to yourcurrent employer and see if,
indeed, they'd be willing tomatch an opportunity or not.
I think that gives you a bettersense as to what the viability
is for someone with your skillset and could potentially give
(18:13):
you a heads up as to whether ornot you're at risk of an event
like what happened at Salesforce.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
I love that.
I really do.
I think it's fantastic.
I mean, it's career management101.
And I don't think we've eversaid that on this show like once
.
So that's brand new, michael.
Thank you for sharing it.
Okay, michael, really goodinformation.
This is going to be very easy todo.
You just go to the Josh Forrestchannel on YouTube and you
(18:43):
click on.
I lost my job.
What am I going to do?
Part one and part two, and youwatch those two and if you're
like me, you like to watch oryou can listen to things really
fast.
I listen to pretty mucheverything at one and a half
speed.
You can do that.
You'll be through all of it inabout 30 minutes, all right,
we'll talk about your LinkedInprofile.
We'll talk about your resume.
We'll talk about your mindset,your health, what you're doing
(19:06):
emotionally.
Because if you go and hit themarket I'll just give you this
one quick giveaway If you go andhit the bricks looking for a
new career, a new job, newposition, and you're still
pretty torn up inside about thesituation, very few people can
successfully land a job thatthey actually want.
(19:28):
You can land a job, but it'sgoing to be with people who
aren't very good at readingpeople and that's not going to
be super fun, because if theycan't read that anguish, that
pit in your stomach that you'restill walking around with, it's
not really an employer you'regoing to want to hang with for
too long.
So you must exorcise, notexercise.
(19:48):
Exorcise like exorcist, right,you have to get rid of that.
How do you process that?
Well, you have to create theright mental framework, right?
This isn't something badhappening to me.
This is just a thing that ishappening, and maybe I should
have had some awareness.
Or maybe I should put a littlebit of time in, or maybe I
(20:08):
should put some time in now toprepare for this change.
What can happen?
Possibly really wonderfulthings.
This might give me the time Ineed to ramp up on my AI so I
can actually become a promptengineer, which is what I really
want to do.
Honestly, that's what I want todo.
I spend weekends making reallycool custom GPTs.
It's so fun For real.
(20:31):
Take this time.
And then here's another thingAssess yourself, michael.
Put it best Record yourself.
Talk about what you'veaccomplished.
Talk about the positive impact.
I really encourage you to talkabout what did you miss, what
mistakes were you making?
And you kept repeating whathabits didn't you break?
Which habits didn't you adopt?
Which habits didn't you adopt?
(20:51):
It's okay to look at both sides.
You really should.
It's healthy.
Don't be afraid of your ownanalysis, but do be careful of
shaming yourself.
Don't shame yourself.
There's no stigma with losing ajob.
When tech comes in, it changesand a large company needs to
make decisions based on theirshareholders, their investments
(21:11):
and their portfolio and thedirection of the company.
That's always going to happen,especially in tech.
Okay, this isn't a miningcompany, right, it's just not.
It's different.
It's going to change constantlychanging.
It's a little bit different,okay, so forgive yourself,
there's nothing to forgive, okay, and then do something
different.
Okay, so forgive yourself,there's nothing to forgive, okay
, and then do somethingdifferent.
(21:31):
Behave differently, thinkdifferently, but for God's sake,
get some sleep.
Don't hit the booze too hard,bitch once in a while to a few
people and then let it go.
If you find yourself two, three, four weeks later having the
same exact conversation, thenyou need a therapist, and not
one that's going to indulge you,one that's going to wake you up
(21:52):
and snap you up.
Snap you out of it.
You might even prefer a coach.
So don't get stuck in arepetitive tape of feeling bad
for yourself.
It's not good for you, it's notgood for the people around you,
it will further damage you, itwill prevent you from success.
That's just a little bit of aquick insight.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Check out Josh Forrest.
I got to jump in.
Yeah, go ahead.
Would it be worthwhilementioning how we met and the
advice that you gave me, because, honestly, that was the best
advice I've ever gotten.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Yeah, sure, I barely remember, but go for it.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
You're memorable, but I don't remember every
conversation we all remember asI'm telling the story.
Yeah, so how do I finish?
So one thing important tomention is how Josh and I
actually met and I had gottenlaid off years ago and was all
wired up, ready to go, excited,literally the next day, like I'm
reaching out, you know, pumpingout the messages, and I had
great introduction to Josh andhe gave me the best advice
(22:46):
career wise I've ever received.
He said take your time, takesome time right, process it.
And, um, you know that can bedifferent for everybody.
Some can maybe take a few daysor, you know, maybe maybe a week
or two.
It's different for everybody.
But literally, seriously, froma mental perspective, um, just
don't jump in right away after.
(23:07):
And, you know, get get intothat, that, run, take, just
process it really.
And that's probably the bestway to phrase it.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Yeah, thanks for sharing that, peter, and I do
remember I'd like to, I'd liketo end on a couple notes with
maybe some final, really quickhits, and then I'll, I'll, I'll
share my thoughts.
So let's just go around, roband Peter, let's start with you.
What's one more thing that youthink can really really help
people?
Speaker 3 (23:33):
So honestly, the one thing is the one that we preach
all the time.
At least I said all the timeit's be authentic.
Don't be like everybody else,and I know that's easy to say,
but it's not that hard toactually do.
Don't be a sheep in the herd ofsheep.
Yes, of course you're going touse all the same tools and find
(23:54):
the different things everywhere,but find something unique, or
something unique that you cantalk about, tell a story and
just distinguish yourself fromthe rest of the crowd if you can
.
That's, frankly, the bestadvice, always the best advice,
and we say it often on thecareer show.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Great.
Thank you, Peter.
May I you may?
Speaker 2 (24:19):
The small, innocuous activities add up over the long
term.
Posts like simple, little postson LinkedIn, simple outreaches
to people that you have highregards for, that are in your
network, that you've worked withpersonally.
For the love of God, thank you.
Notes after interviews.
For the of god, people liketrying to stand out the easiest
(24:43):
way to stand out yeah, my god,like you have no idea, like
people like these simple things,right like look up the person
that you're going to interviewwith before you interview with
them, send thank you notes.
Like understand your valueproposition, do a little bit of
research, it's.
I know you people get thetemptation to just like shoot
off tons of resumes, just likeyeah, with spelling mistakes
(25:08):
right like I'm just gonna thatare poorly written yeah, people
come to me with like I'veapplied for a thousand jobs.
I'm like you really haven'tapplied to any.
I'm just like you've just beenthrowing your resume around like
that's not applying for jobs.
Like applying for a thousandjobs, I'm like you really
haven't applied to any.
I'm just like you've just beenthrowing your resume around like
that's not applying for jobs.
Like applying for a job is likeapplying yourself for a
position.
Now it doesn't mean like basketright, but it's like, I love
(25:28):
that.
It's like fine, like, find apassion, fine, like, do like.
To peter's point, take a littlebit of time, figure out what
you feel like you want to donext, talk to your network, talk
to yourself, talk to yourspouse, whatever.
Find companies that fit thatdemographic, find the people
that work at those companiesthat you know.
(25:50):
These are the simple things.
And then research thoseorganizations, then apply
thoughtfully.
Research those organizationsthan apply thoughtfully.
I think those little things addup as opposed to.
It's not nearly as much of anumbers game as I think people
give it credit for.
Call Josh, for the love of God.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Don't call me, I'm too busy.
Don't call me, just watch thevideos.
I guess it's my turn.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Some final advice.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Look guys, there's so much information already on
this channel, on this podcast,whether it's how to translate
big firm skills into marketablenarratives.
You know like I handledescalations for fortune 500
clients instead of yeah, I'm acustomer service rep, or I lived
in compliance frameworks likeGDPR and HIPAA for three years
(26:38):
straight.
You get to say that stuff.
Let's present ourselves asinterested people who want to
connect with others.
So smile, get your profiledialed in, get your resume
filled with accomplishments.
But I don't know those numbers,josh.
Come on, just do a little mathin your head, scratch it out,
(26:59):
you'll figure it out.
How many calls did you take?
How many escalations did youhandle?
What were your customer servicescores?
You'll know that stuff.
And if you don't, then you'renot paying attention to your
career and anything that fallson you is on you.
So if you're not payingattention, it is truly on you.
And if you become successful,it's not an accident because you
did something to advanceyourself.
(27:20):
You don't have to be thefastest person out there, you
don't have to be the smartest.
You just have to be better thanthe next people.
And if you're applying to a jobwith a thousand applications,
you absolutely have to be betterthan 948 of them or 970 of them
, and it's not hard to do.
Honest to God, if all you didwas spend five hours picking a
(27:41):
few of these podcasts and thensitting there, listen to them,
five hours of content and thenapply 15 hours of work to them,
you'll get a job.
You'll get a job.
It'll happen.
It'll happen sooner than youthink it would.
So if you're upset that you'renot somewhere spending 40 hours
a week helping someone else, whydon't you spend 10 hours a week
(28:03):
helping yourself?
And that's where I would start.
That's what I recommend.
We want you to be a human andnot a headcount.
I think some of this advice,like working at the smaller to
mid-sized firms after a big one,will help you to feel that way,
like you'll find your place,you'll find your people, you'll
find meaning, you'll findsustainability in a career,
(28:24):
you'll find advancement in acareer.
Right, but only if you reallydo the time.
Put yourself out there.
If you check out my very lastpodcast, it was short, it was
like eight minutes.
We had John Klein on here andwe talked about one of Michael's
employees.
She went two years looking fora job, couldn't find one, but
she spent almost every singleday getting better at her job,
(28:47):
still doing certifications,being involved in the community,
polishing her communicationskills.
So you can do it.
You can do it.
You just have to want to do itenough.
And if you don't feel likedoing it right now, it's okay,
forgive yourself.
Go take a hot bath, go binge aNetflix show for the next two
days, you know like it's okay.
(29:09):
Treat yourself.
Treat yourself right, treatyourself.
Thank you for watching thisprogram.
Michael Vukovic, ceo of WiseWolves.
Thank you for watching thisprogram.
Michael Vukovic, ceo of WiseWolves.
Thank you so much for being onhere, my friend.
It's always so good to see you.
Peter Ganza, dear friend, greatcontributor to the Hiring Edge
and the Salesforce Career Showover the years, thanks for
joining us today.
Bye for now.
Salesforce layoffs always a touchy subject, always
a divisive topic, and todaywe're trying to do something
more than just create moredivision and outrage.
We're actually going to bringsome real solutions to those of
you who have been impacted.
We're going to hit you with afew, I think, very helpful
things that you can do rightaway.
(00:21):
But if you really want the bigcontent, the how do I actually
secure my career long term thesesorts of things, you're going
to want to stick around forwhat's going to be a very lively
and interesting discussion.
Welcome to the Hiring Edge, thepodcast helping leaders
navigate the age of AI, createteams that thrive and build a
workplace people never want toleave.
(00:43):
So first of all, let's talkabout numbers.
I think it was like rightaround the 4th or 5th of
September, salesforce announced4,000 layoffs and people started
to lose their freaking mindslike they didn't see it coming.
God knows why they didn't seeit coming.
I mean, we've all just beentalking about agent force for
(01:06):
over a year now, right, and youknow some of the things.
I don't want to get too intothis right now, but some of the
things I was seeing is like oh,you know, benioff is out of
touch and his comments weren'tappreciated and he talked about
headcount instead of humans,like okay.
And he talked about headcountinstead of humans, like okay,
fair enough, can we move on andstart helping people?
(01:27):
Yes, we can.
So first thing is, let's getthis in perspective 6,500 people
have been employed not employedbut hired in the last four
years by Salesforce.
They are going to be letting goabout 3,500 or so of them,
upwards of 4,000.
I think it's 4,000 globally.
Is that right, michael?
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Yeah, approximately About 4,000 globally.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Okay, all right, I'm going to give two or three of my
thoughts and then we're goingto go round, robin, flesh this
out and hopefully get to thebottom of this so that you can
walk away from this with somevery real tactical things you
can do and some mind shiftchanges that will only enhance
your career or the people thatyou care about.
(02:12):
So my number one is don't chaseanother giant immediately.
Don't go straight fromSalesforce to IBM or to Oracle
right, these are large companies.
They're all not only looking atautomation for customer support
.
They can afford it.
They can afford that transition, right.
(02:33):
Instead, you're going to wantto look at more mid-sized
companies.
Mid-sized companies where theycan actually elevate their
department.
Because of your big, large techcompany experience, what do you
guys think about that?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
I'll go if it's alright, and I want to step on
Peter's toes here.
Go ahead, michael.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
He lost all of his toes 10 years ago.
He's fine.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Different story for a different podcast, though,
speaking for myself, I couldn'tagree with that more, and just
to bring that as some additionalreal world experience.
In my career, having been inthe Salesforce space for the
last 15 years I used to work ata company called Blue Wolf,
which many of you listening tothis podcast might know was one
(03:20):
of the first ever sorry, thefirst ever Salesforce partner.
If any of my former colleagueswatching this one, make sure I
get that right First everSalesforce partner.
And then they were ultimatelyacquired by IBM.
Now what's interesting is whenI introduce myself to potential
prospects today, I lead with IBMBecause that is a brand that
people know, that peoplerecognize as opposed to Blue
(03:41):
Wolf, and so no offense to myBlue Wolf colleagues, but IBM
generally stands out a lot moreand people the prospects in
particular oftentimes feel a lotof comfort in knowing that
they're working and talking tosomebody who had worked with
large scale Fortune 500companies.
So that's a real brand thatindividuals who unfortunately
(04:04):
suffered from these layoffs areable to take with them as almost
a badge of sorts as they gointo future interviews.
So, yeah, I know you mentionedmedium-sized businesses, josh.
I mean I wouldn't evendifferentiate.
You know even small businessesas well.
I think would really appreciatesomebody with something like a
Salesforce experience.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Absolutely.
I mean, we're talking abouthighly trained employees, right,
they don't just hire anybody.
They're kind of picky, somedepartments more than others.
But one of the things you cando is really tap into the global
gig economy strategically onyour own.
You can jump on Upwork, fiverr,turing there are a number of
(04:47):
platforms.
So if you want some immediatework hopefully it takes a little
bit of time to build a rep, butif you want some immediate help
, you can leverage the nameSalesforce.
You can say, instead of sayingsupport specialist, you could
say ex-Salesforce supportspecialist specialist.
(05:07):
You could say ex-Salesforcesupport specialist, right,
ex-oracle tier two supportspecialist.
That's going to give you someimmediate credibility.
Right, it's going to answermore questions than it asks.
And that's what you want to do.
You want people to understandyou.
Let's kick it over to you,michael.
I know that you've got someideas on what people can do in
this situation.
What's ideas on what people cando in this situation?
What's something else thatpeople can do?
Speaker 2 (05:29):
I'm a big believer in network, especially in today's
day and age.
There's tons of talking aboutother news stories out recently
about a lot of deep fakeapplications being submitted for
job profiles online and thingslike that.
I think people are ever more Idon't want to call it
(05:49):
adversarial, but distrusting ofjust the random resume that
lands in the inbox in responseto a job posting online.
I've been seeing a lot of peoplethat have been really forward
and open and honest to theirnetwork in the form of LinkedIn,
as well as what I imagine theform of LinkedIn, as well as
what I imagine to be othersocial networks as well in
communicating or articulatingtheir journey as they go through
(06:11):
the respective layoff and thejob evaluation and moving
forward, and so I would highlyrecommend looking closely at the
individuals, the people thatyou've built a strong
relationship with over thecourse of your work career
individuals the people thatyou've built a strong
relationship with over thecourse of your work career.
So, if you are, unfortunately,somebody who suffered from this
or any layoff, but in thisparticular layoff, I would look
(06:32):
at, of course, the people thatare going through the same thing
.
I cross-share and understandideas and learn from them, and
then, on the opposite side, as acustomer support specialist,
you know people that are stillemployed at Salesforce.
They are hiring still.
They have new jobs, right, Josh, that they are still hiring for
over the course of the next 12months.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Yeah, I mean they've hired, I think, 1,800 people in
the last 12 months.
It's not all doom and gloom,it's more hiring.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Oh, they're hiring for different roles, right, so
you could upskill and then getreferred right back into the
same organization, right?
Potentially even with apotential promotion, or, of
course, other people that havecome and gone and left and went
on to other roles at differentorganizations.
Lean on that network as a meansto really find not just another
(07:23):
job, but, if you have theluxury quote, unquote luxury to
do so, to try to find anopportunity that you really feel
like aligns with your not justyour short term needs of like a
paycheck, but also your mediumand long term needs from a
career standpoint.
Your network's going to beinvaluable in helping you find
that yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
And here's the good news.
Here's the good news.
Guys Like of these positionsaren't gone until November.
It's not like everyone just gotwalked to the door a week ago
or eight, nine days ago.
It didn't happen like that, solet's.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
LinkedIn, right, perfect example.
We've all.
We all get.
You know, I get a few a week.
Oh, I'm you know.
Now I'm you know, on the market.
I'm looking for this type of arole, right In a message that's
not nearly as powerful as hey,let's catch up and meet and and
(08:16):
actually see the person and notlead with the.
You know, oh, I just lost myjob and I'm looking for the next
role.
I'm desperate, but I just wantto catch up.
Do you have a booking link?
Here's my booking link.
Yeah, I'll do that, and that isa whole different level of just
communication and networking.
That's, frankly, one of thebest things I can suggest,
because it makes a difference.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
It does.
It's a huge difference.
The one thing I would add is,yeah, you can lead with like hey
, catch up, but before themeeting let them know what it's
about.
No one wants to feel ambushed,so be careful.
Like depends on how busy theperson is.
Just make sure that they bookthe time, but then let them know
before you meet.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
What's going on, right?
I think, yeah, I, if you know,as as humans, we oftentimes try
to shy away from the idea ofasking for help because we feel
like it has a negativeperception of us in terms of our
ability and our skill to kindof pull ourselves up by the
bootstraps and get it done right.
But that's right.
The reality is like there's asaying it takes a village,
(09:26):
everything kind of takes avillage, like a human being, the
village and and people reallyactually appreciate, I'll be
honest, like there's there, oneof the top five things I love to
do in this world is find otherpeople.
It's like it's it's.
It's a really fulfilling thingto do.
I know you, I wouldn't knowanything about it, I don't make
any money on it, josh, butanyway.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Hey, you know what?
Nine times out of 10, I don'teither.
Yeah, it's just a fulfillingactivity to perform, to have a
real direct impact with people.
This is something reallyimportant.
Okay, pay attention to yourcareer.
Pay attention to your career.
Don't be shocked when a companythat is introducing and
announced at Dreamforce lastyear and then gave a
(10:12):
demonstration who was it?
Land's End Eddie Bauer, it wasLL Bean, it was like one of
these clothing companies andthey showed.
I sat there, I was there in thefreaking theater and they
showed how you don't needcustomer support anymore.
Like I watched it.
Right?
(10:32):
Don't work for a company andthen act shocked when the thing
that they have just designed,which is designed to edge you
out, edges you out.
You can act surprised that youweren't paying attention, but
don't act shocked when thecompany that says they're going
to go do something, and thenthey go and do it, and now
you're indignant.
(10:52):
I think that's just silly.
You, who are struggling rightnow, who know that your time at
Salesforce is coming to an end,are responsible for your own
career.
It is not the Ohana, it's notMark Benioff.
After all, he's the one whocreated the job that you've been
feeding your family on for anumber of years or months, or
even over a decade, if not.
But for him, you would eithernot be working or be working
(11:15):
somewhere else.
Let's not get kind of nastyhere.
Let's take some personalownership.
Yes, I'm in customer service.
Yes, we have a product.
Yes, it's designed to replaceme.
So what am I going to do aboutit?
Now Be one of the first peopleto iterate what direction your
career is going.
Don't be the one who's shockedon Labor Day when you see some
(11:36):
announcement that your job'sgoing away.
And what's interesting?
I found this really interesting.
Know who are the most indignantpeople?
Shocked, outraged Americans.
Big, freaking surprise.
Guess who's not.
Guess.
Who kept it professional onLinkedIn, practically to a T.
Everyone in India.
(11:58):
Everyone in India polite,professional took it on the chin
.
Not the best situation, butthey're going to do something
about it.
What they didn't do is have anairing of the grievances.
Okay, like they didn't have todo that in public, and you don't
either.
So don't be caught in that.
And I'm not telling.
(12:18):
I'm not trying to silenceanyone.
I'm just trying to help youprotect your career, because it
matters.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Yeah, I think it's.
I think it is important toremember that employers are
going to be looking at yourprofile before they hire you.
At least I will.
I don't know about everybodyelse, I suppose but look at what
they want to post.
And if people see that you areshitposting your former employer
(12:50):
online and that is going to, asas a potential future employer,
look somewhat suspicious, likeit's just not like as as an
individual who's going to bringyou on board, even just even
purely from like a potentialheadache, right, remember, I
mean, ultimately, people have toremember you're trying to
differentiate yourself amongst asea of individuals who are
(13:14):
applying to jobs every it's.
It's.
It's about trying to find everylittle edge that you can find.
Going from I know, I know theperson that used to work with
three jobs ago.
All the way to, I shaved and Iwore a suit to the interview.
All the way to, I sent a thankyou letter.
(13:35):
All the way to don't shitpostyour former boss, Right, like
I'm also.
Like you don't even want toshut out Salesforce, right?
You're there till November.
You can still find another jobwithin the organization.
So, like you, don't want to belike shitposting, of course,
like ship hosting.
That's right, your currentemployer.
That's right, it's your currentemployer.
Yeah, it's about trying to addup all these little edges that
(13:55):
you can get in pursuit of makingsure that you know, come
November 1, you are wellpositioned and that you have
another lined up.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Always try to think about the outcome of your action
.
If it's going to be negative atall, why Is it going to benefit
you?
Right?
That's really the best way tothink about it.
I know that's easy to say, butsometimes it can be that simple.
That's right.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Does it serve your future self.
It serves your immediate selfbecause you're going to get a
dopamine hit when you keeplogging into LinkedIn 20 times
that day to see how many peopleliked your comment.
Like, yeah, you're going to geta little dopamine hit.
That's going to go away and thewhole thread's probably going
to be forgotten, except untilsomeone like me or Michael or
some other hiring manager startslooking around and there's just
(14:45):
too many people available.
Today, one of my recruitersshared a candidate with me.
I'm like.
I looked at him.
Oh yeah, he looks good.
Oh, he worked there.
Oh, I know those guys.
Oh, I know that business owner.
He's been on the show a bunchof times, by the way, and I shot
him both a quick message.
Hey, is this guy any good?
Absolutely, totally vouch forhim.
He's amazing.
He's incredible.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
I can text these same two guys or gals or any of my
connections and say, hey, itlooks like you guys work
together.
What do you know it's like?
Oh yeah, just run, run.
Right, michael, what else doyou have for the folks out there
?
What's something that couldhelp them?
Handful of connections thatwent through layoffs recently
and I think one of the theimpressive thing that I've seen
people doing is, of course,communicating and talking about
their journey as a means to both, I feel, expand their reach as
(15:42):
well as uplift others.
I think that people want to hirepeople that are trying to do
that, that are trying to tobring others up in in the world
speaking but one of the waysthat I feel like people can,
that I feel like has actionableresults as it pertains to
finding a new job, is I thinkeverybody who's going through
this experience should try tofind four to six to ten hours
(16:04):
over the course of the nextcouple of weeks and just record
ad nauseum, like in a videoformat similar to this, their
experience and what they've doneand their top accomplishments
they feel like they achievedduring their tenure at
Salesforce or even broadlywithin their career.
Take all of that, take thosetranscripts, use AI as a weapon
(16:26):
load in the chat GPT and thensay write me 20 LinkedIn posts
that speak to that are going tobe high performing, that speak
to who I am as an individual,the value that I can bring to an
organization, and specificanecdotes and successes that
I've had throughout my career.
And you can take those postsand tweak it and modify it as
(16:48):
you feel.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
And you should, you should, you should, you should.
If it doesn't sound like youguys, if it does not sound like
you and if you have green checkmarks, don't do it.
I agree, don't do it.
Train the agent to sound likeyou.
At least try that, yeah why Ilike recording myself?
Speaker 2 (17:10):
actually, because I really I feel like it's much
more effective at like pickingup on your, your terminology,
your words, your personalitywhen it has like you actually
talking to it as much aspossible and then use that as a
means to like engage with otherpeople as well as market
yourself.
I think that's, frankly, aninvaluable, uh like step that
you could take towards liketrying to find your next
(17:32):
opportunity and also communicateto the world that, yeah, you're
open for business and assomeone who, by the way, if you
still actually have a job I hopenobody at Wise Wolves is
watching this, by the way but Ithink that everybody, every
three years at a minimum, shouldcheck their market, which means
you should, every three years,go out into the market.
(17:52):
You should see what your valueis worth, what other
opportunities that are out there, and you should consider taking
advantage of thoseopportunities.
Or you should go back to yourcurrent employer and see if,
indeed, they'd be willing tomatch an opportunity or not.
I think that gives you a bettersense as to what the viability
is for someone with your skillset and could potentially give
(18:13):
you a heads up as to whether ornot you're at risk of an event
like what happened at Salesforce.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
I love that.
I really do.
I think it's fantastic.
I mean, it's career management101.
And I don't think we've eversaid that on this show like once
.
So that's brand new, michael.
Thank you for sharing it.
Okay, michael, really goodinformation.
This is going to be very easy todo.
You just go to the Josh Forrestchannel on YouTube and you
(18:43):
click on.
I lost my job.
What am I going to do?
Part one and part two, and youwatch those two and if you're
like me, you like to watch oryou can listen to things really
fast.
I listen to pretty mucheverything at one and a half
speed.
You can do that.
You'll be through all of it inabout 30 minutes, all right,
we'll talk about your LinkedInprofile.
We'll talk about your resume.
We'll talk about your mindset,your health, what you're doing
(19:06):
emotionally.
Because if you go and hit themarket I'll just give you this
one quick giveaway If you go andhit the bricks looking for a
new career, a new job, newposition, and you're still
pretty torn up inside about thesituation, very few people can
successfully land a job thatthey actually want.
(19:28):
You can land a job, but it'sgoing to be with people who
aren't very good at readingpeople and that's not going to
be super fun, because if theycan't read that anguish, that
pit in your stomach that you'restill walking around with, it's
not really an employer you'regoing to want to hang with for
too long.
So you must exorcise, notexercise.
(19:48):
Exorcise like exorcist, right,you have to get rid of that.
How do you process that?
Well, you have to create theright mental framework, right?
This isn't something badhappening to me.
This is just a thing that ishappening, and maybe I should
have had some awareness.
Or maybe I should put a littlebit of time in, or maybe I
(20:08):
should put some time in now toprepare for this change.
What can happen?
Possibly really wonderfulthings.
This might give me the time Ineed to ramp up on my AI so I
can actually become a promptengineer, which is what I really
want to do.
Honestly, that's what I want todo.
I spend weekends making reallycool custom GPTs.
It's so fun For real.
(20:31):
Take this time.
And then here's another thingAssess yourself, michael.
Put it best Record yourself.
Talk about what you'veaccomplished.
Talk about the positive impact.
I really encourage you to talkabout what did you miss, what
mistakes were you making?
And you kept repeating whathabits didn't you break?
Which habits didn't you adopt?
Which habits didn't you adopt?
(20:51):
It's okay to look at both sides.
You really should.
It's healthy.
Don't be afraid of your ownanalysis, but do be careful of
shaming yourself.
Don't shame yourself.
There's no stigma with losing ajob.
When tech comes in, it changesand a large company needs to
make decisions based on theirshareholders, their investments
(21:11):
and their portfolio and thedirection of the company.
That's always going to happen,especially in tech.
Okay, this isn't a miningcompany, right, it's just not.
It's different.
It's going to change constantlychanging.
It's a little bit different,okay, so forgive yourself,
there's nothing to forgive, okay, and then do something
different.
Okay, so forgive yourself,there's nothing to forgive, okay
, and then do somethingdifferent.
(21:31):
Behave differently, thinkdifferently, but for God's sake,
get some sleep.
Don't hit the booze too hard,bitch once in a while to a few
people and then let it go.
If you find yourself two, three, four weeks later having the
same exact conversation, thenyou need a therapist, and not
one that's going to indulge you,one that's going to wake you up
(21:52):
and snap you up.
Snap you out of it.
You might even prefer a coach.
So don't get stuck in arepetitive tape of feeling bad
for yourself.
It's not good for you, it's notgood for the people around you,
it will further damage you, itwill prevent you from success.
That's just a little bit of aquick insight.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Check out Josh Forrest.
I got to jump in.
Yeah, go ahead.
Would it be worthwhilementioning how we met and the
advice that you gave me, because, honestly, that was the best
advice I've ever gotten.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Yeah, sure, I barely remember, but go for it.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
You're memorable, but I don't remember every
conversation we all remember asI'm telling the story.
Yeah, so how do I finish?
So one thing important tomention is how Josh and I
actually met and I had gottenlaid off years ago and was all
wired up, ready to go, excited,literally the next day, like I'm
reaching out, you know, pumpingout the messages, and I had
great introduction to Josh andhe gave me the best advice
(22:46):
career wise I've ever received.
He said take your time, takesome time right, process it.
And, um, you know that can bedifferent for everybody.
Some can maybe take a few daysor, you know, maybe maybe a week
or two.
It's different for everybody.
But literally, seriously, froma mental perspective, um, just
don't jump in right away after.
(23:07):
And, you know, get get intothat, that, run, take, just
process it really.
And that's probably the bestway to phrase it.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Yeah, thanks for sharing that, peter, and I do
remember I'd like to, I'd liketo end on a couple notes with
maybe some final, really quickhits, and then I'll, I'll, I'll
share my thoughts.
So let's just go around, roband Peter, let's start with you.
What's one more thing that youthink can really really help
people?
Speaker 3 (23:33):
So honestly, the one thing is the one that we preach
all the time.
At least I said all the timeit's be authentic.
Don't be like everybody else,and I know that's easy to say,
but it's not that hard toactually do.
Don't be a sheep in the herd ofsheep.
Yes, of course you're going touse all the same tools and find
(23:54):
the different things everywhere,but find something unique, or
something unique that you cantalk about, tell a story and
just distinguish yourself fromthe rest of the crowd if you can
.
That's, frankly, the bestadvice, always the best advice,
and we say it often on thecareer show.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Great.
Thank you, Peter.
May I you may?
Speaker 2 (24:19):
The small, innocuous activities add up over the long
term.
Posts like simple, little postson LinkedIn, simple outreaches
to people that you have highregards for, that are in your
network, that you've worked withpersonally.
For the love of God, thank you.
Notes after interviews.
For the of god, people liketrying to stand out the easiest
(24:43):
way to stand out yeah, my god,like you have no idea, like
people like these simple things,right like look up the person
that you're going to interviewwith before you interview with
them, send thank you notes.
Like understand your valueproposition, do a little bit of
research, it's.
I know you people get thetemptation to just like shoot
off tons of resumes, just likeyeah, with spelling mistakes
(25:08):
right like I'm just gonna thatare poorly written yeah, people
come to me with like I'veapplied for a thousand jobs.
I'm like you really haven'tapplied to any.
I'm just like you've just beenthrowing your resume around like
that's not applying for jobs.
Like applying for a thousandjobs, I'm like you really
haven't applied to any.
I'm just like you've just beenthrowing your resume around like
that's not applying for jobs.
Like applying for a job is likeapplying yourself for a
position.
Now it doesn't mean like basketright, but it's like, I love
(25:28):
that.
It's like fine, like, find apassion, fine, like, do like.
To peter's point, take a littlebit of time, figure out what
you feel like you want to donext, talk to your network, talk
to yourself, talk to yourspouse, whatever.
Find companies that fit thatdemographic, find the people
that work at those companiesthat you know.
(25:50):
These are the simple things.
And then research thoseorganizations, then apply
thoughtfully.
Research those organizationsthan apply thoughtfully.
I think those little things addup as opposed to.
It's not nearly as much of anumbers game as I think people
give it credit for.
Call Josh, for the love of God.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Don't call me, I'm too busy.
Don't call me, just watch thevideos.
I guess it's my turn.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Some final advice.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Look guys, there's so much information already on
this channel, on this podcast,whether it's how to translate
big firm skills into marketablenarratives.
You know like I handledescalations for fortune 500
clients instead of yeah, I'm acustomer service rep, or I lived
in compliance frameworks likeGDPR and HIPAA for three years
(26:38):
straight.
You get to say that stuff.
Let's present ourselves asinterested people who want to
connect with others.
So smile, get your profiledialed in, get your resume
filled with accomplishments.
But I don't know those numbers,josh.
Come on, just do a little mathin your head, scratch it out,
(26:59):
you'll figure it out.
How many calls did you take?
How many escalations did youhandle?
What were your customer servicescores?
You'll know that stuff.
And if you don't, then you'renot paying attention to your
career and anything that fallson you is on you.
So if you're not payingattention, it is truly on you.
And if you become successful,it's not an accident because you
did something to advanceyourself.
(27:20):
You don't have to be thefastest person out there, you
don't have to be the smartest.
You just have to be better thanthe next people.
And if you're applying to a jobwith a thousand applications,
you absolutely have to be betterthan 948 of them or 970 of them
, and it's not hard to do.
Honest to God, if all you didwas spend five hours picking a
(27:41):
few of these podcasts and thensitting there, listen to them,
five hours of content and thenapply 15 hours of work to them,
you'll get a job.
You'll get a job.
It'll happen.
It'll happen sooner than youthink it would.
So if you're upset that you'renot somewhere spending 40 hours
a week helping someone else, whydon't you spend 10 hours a week
(28:03):
helping yourself?
And that's where I would start.
That's what I recommend.
We want you to be a human andnot a headcount.
I think some of this advice,like working at the smaller to
mid-sized firms after a big one,will help you to feel that way,
like you'll find your place,you'll find your people, you'll
find meaning, you'll findsustainability in a career,
(28:24):
you'll find advancement in acareer.
Right, but only if you reallydo the time.
Put yourself out there.
If you check out my very lastpodcast, it was short, it was
like eight minutes.
We had John Klein on here andwe talked about one of Michael's
employees.
She went two years looking fora job, couldn't find one, but
she spent almost every singleday getting better at her job,
(28:47):
still doing certifications,being involved in the community,
polishing her communicationskills.
So you can do it.
You can do it.
You just have to want to do itenough.
And if you don't feel likedoing it right now, it's okay,
forgive yourself.
Go take a hot bath, go binge aNetflix show for the next two
days, you know like it's okay.
(29:09):
Treat yourself.
Treat yourself right, treatyourself.
Thank you for watching thisprogram.
Michael Vukovic, ceo of WiseWolves.
Thank you for watching thisprogram.
Michael Vukovic, ceo of WiseWolves.
Thank you so much for being onhere, my friend.
It's always so good to see you.
Peter Ganza, dear friend, greatcontributor to the Hiring Edge
and the Salesforce Career Showover the years, thanks for
joining us today.
Bye for now.
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