Episode Transcript
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Intro (00:01):
Do you live in a world filled with corporate data? Are
you plagued by siloeddepartments? Are your lackluster
growth strategies demolishingyour chances for success? Are
you held captive by the evilmenace Lord Lack? Lack of time,
lack of strategy, and lack ofthe most important and powerful
(00:24):
tool in your superhero toolbelt, knowledge.
Never fear, hub heroes. Getready to don your cape and mask,
move into action, and become thehub hero your organization
needs. Tune in each week to jointhe league of extraordinary
inbound heroes as we help youeducate, empower, and execute.
(00:50):
Hub Heroes, it's time to uniteand activate your powers. Before
we begin, we need to disclosethat Devin is currently employed
by HubSpot at the time of thisepisode's recording.
This podcast is in no wayaffiliated with or produced by
HubSpot, and the thoughts andopinions expressed by Devin
during the show are that of hisown and in no way represent
(01:10):
those of his employer.
Max Cohen (01:12):
Liz. Me? Oh, where were you on January 6?
George B. Thomas (01:17):
Yeah. That's how that interview is gonna go,
baby.
Max Cohen (01:21):
And an all day leadership team meeting going,
hey, guys. Have you seen what'shappening on CNN? Or
George B. Thomas (01:27):
is that
Max Cohen (01:27):
what they were calling it they were calling it
an all day leadership meeting.Yeah. Exactly. That's what it
was. That's where they peacefuland peaceful and patriotic all
day leadership meeting.
Chad Hohn (01:36):
That's right. Here they lead.
George B. Thomas (01:38):
So hang on. You didn't even say the year,
bro. So does she have aleadership meeting on that date
every year?
Max Cohen (01:46):
That would be convenient, wouldn't it be?
George B. Thomas (01:47):
Yeah. It would be.
Max Cohen (01:48):
Yeah. Sounds like an alibi to me.
Liz Moorhead (01:49):
Convenient, wouldn't it?
Chad Hohn (01:50):
Seems like a possibility.
Liz Moorhead (01:54):
Well, Max,
Max Cohen (01:55):
I know I'm just explain it can someone explain
the the topic of the episode sothat joke works? Yeah. How does
that do?
George B. Thomas (02:02):
We we should probably do that.
Max Cohen (02:04):
Yeah. And I'm sorry for the guys I'll figure out
Liz Moorhead (02:08):
my camera. But welcome to a very special
episode that I have alreadyimmediately regret agreeing to.
A couple weeks ago, one of ourlisteners said they would really
like to hear an episode wherethe guys just ask me questions
about content. Whatever theywant. My thoughts.
So hi. I'm Liz Morehead, contenttherapist, AI poet. Ask me
(02:34):
anything. George, I'm gonna turnit over to you to be the master
of ceremonies while I just kindaget emotionally uncomfortable
here.
George B. Thomas (02:40):
Yeah. Yeah. Get ready to be in the, therapy
chair, for this episode. Sohere's the thing. What I want
all the listeners to know is,listen, I have been working
with, each other for the lasttwo years.
A lot of what you see onSidekick Strategies, George b
Thomas, like, it's it's thatcontent. It's human centric.
(03:02):
It's on brand. It's, like, superpowerful. Like, we just it's
been a a pleasure being able tocreate valuable content to the
world together.
And so I'm actually superexcited, that another human,
another human was like, hey. Canwe dive into Liz's brain? As
scary as it may be, I added thatlast part. They didn't. And so
(03:26):
we we get to ask you questions,around content and all that good
stuff.
So I'll I'll start. I'll throwone out, because I definitely
wanna make sure that we hit uponthis. And if we do it first, we
won't won't run out of time.Right? So, Liz, here's the
thing.
Where we're at now, we have AItools that are rapidly
(03:50):
advancing. And so how do you seethe role of content creators,
content strategist evolving inthe next three, five years? And
and I guess I wanna add on tothis. Will it become more about
managing AI outputs, or do youthink the human element will
(04:11):
remain central to effectivecontent creation? What what are
your thoughts on that topic?
Liz Moorhead (04:17):
You know that this that my answer to this question
has to start with the fact that,like, full disclosure, I was
dragged kicking, screaming,complaining, asking if I was
being punished, going into yes.George is pointing at himself.
He got me there. He got methere. I was at first, I was
definitely one of those, like,basement dwelling mouth
(04:39):
breathers.
Like, put my art, put my craft.This will but then I started
sitting with what my actual fearwas. I wasn't concerned about my
job ever being taken away. Myconcern was that AI in the hands
of the many would create quitefrankly much of what we are
seeing today. Right?
What we're seeing today is anuncanny valley effect. And for
(05:03):
those who aren't aware whatuncanny valley is, it's
essentially this scientificprinciple that the closer
something that isn't human istried to make look human like,
for example, we love Disneycharacters. Right? Disney
characters, but we know theydon't look real. They look like
a cartoon.
They feel safe. They feelwhatever. But then we see robots
(05:24):
that are meant to look likehumans, and they freak us out.
We don't like it. We have anaversion to it.
We do not trust it. Right? We'restarting to see that with
content, And I'm sure you guyshave heard the same thing. Like,
I don't know what's wrong withthis content, but I could tell
it's AI. I just I can't put myfinger on it.
Don't trust it. Somethingsomething's off. So the reason
(05:45):
why I tell this story is becausewhen I think about where content
like, the role of the contentstrategist is evolving, the
content creator, I think thereis I'll say it. Some of the fear
is substantiated. I think forsome people who have been
coasting without havingdeveloped meaningful brand
(06:07):
voice, strategy, storytellingskills where they're not where
where they're sitting heresaying, what is this blog post
gonna be?
And said, who is this for? Whatdo they need from us? How are
they gonna show up? I think forthose people, yeah, maybe you
should find a differentdiscipline or maybe those skills
you need to hone because that isreally what we're gonna be
(06:27):
looking at in terms of AI. Iactually have people coming to
me asking me for more advicethan ever about content
creation, about contentstrategy, the content audit,
George, that you and I did thisweek.
George B. Thomas (06:41):
Yep.
Liz Moorhead (06:42):
There are certain things where AI is going to
extend and amplify the power ofpeople who understand there is a
human component of the art ofcontent that will never be
replaced. You can get close. Youcan have facsimiles, but you
will always have something thatfeels off if you don't do that
(07:02):
level of work. So this is why,you know, I've talked to there
are a few content managers whoI've known through the years who
will periodically just do coffeechats with me. We'll just hang
out, talk shop, catch up.
And I'm finding the skill setsthat I am referring to people in
terms of how they differentiatethemselves, and I'm like, is it
human storytelling?Understanding that empathy is
(07:25):
not the only way you show up asa human being in content. This
is something you and I havetalked about, George. Empathy is
something that is so importantand overinflated in terms of its
importance in terms of how we docontent storytelling. But that
that's where I see this going.
It has placed a greater premiumon people who have those skills.
(07:46):
And if you find someone like aGeorge who will drag you kicking
and screaming and help youunderstand you're not being
artist, you're being amasochist, you're just being sad
to yourself, like, you willlearn how to extend your
superpowers by amplifying thesmart parts of the process that
take the most time so you can domore high value work.
George B. Thomas (08:04):
So many of those words bring me great joy
to hear you actually say that.And and the the the fun part is
and this is not a sales pitch,but, like, being able to do that
content audit and give it to thepotential client and them have
the eye like, I don't seeChatGPT having a discovery
meeting and and delivering it ina human way that actually
(08:28):
engages and interacts. So lovelove that you came kicking and
screaming. Love where you're atwith this right now. So, Chad,
Max, your turn.
Let's just
Max Cohen (08:38):
Why are we so sure that the human element cannot be
replaced by AI, Liz?
Liz Moorhead (08:44):
It comes down to what fundamentally happens in a
human interaction. So I'll tellyou a hypothetical, not so
hypothetical story. There was agirl I used to know in my
twenties where, like, she wasthe best bitch to brunch with.
No joke. Always a great story,always something really good
going on, But I always had hergo to a very specific restaurant
(09:06):
because I knew if we went tothis restaurant at a specific
time on Sunday in DC, she wouldget a window seat so I could see
what kind of tornado of hell Iwas walking into.
Right? Am I walking up? Am Iseeing she has her head in her
hands, and we've already got twoempty mimosa glasses next to
her? She hasn't dumped Kevinyet. He's still an asshole.
We're still dealing with a lotof problems. Right? Or is she
(09:27):
happy? Is
George B. Thomas (09:27):
she happy? The beat button on this episode. Oh
my gosh.
Liz Moorhead (09:33):
Butthead. Kevin was a butthead. All names have
been changed to protect themarginally innocent. Right? Or
she might be in a great mood.
There might be something goingon, but I always needed to have
emotional and situationalawareness walking up to that
table because I had tounderstand based on where she
(09:54):
was, what she needed from me.Now this is where it gets really
interesting. Right? I am stillalways Liz all the time,
inserting godfather analogieswhere they do not belong,
talking about Nicolas Cage to adegree that is deeply unhealthy.
You know, like, all of thesedifferent things
George B. Thomas (10:11):
Facts.
Liz Moorhead (10:12):
But that is my voice. That is my all the time
personality. But my tone willswitch depending on where I'm
at. Right?
Max Cohen (10:19):
Mm-mm.
Liz Moorhead (10:19):
Like, if she's if she's upset and she's sad and
she's had head on the table,Moses, blah
blah blah blah blah. Right? I'm showing up
there like,
hey, baby girl. What would Nicolas Cage do? The
only thing he'd steal, thedeclaration of independence. If
she's in a great mood, it'slike, so we're going to National
Archives. The declaration ofindependence is ours.
Right? Mhmm. But that is a veryhuman experience to sit and
(10:44):
assess and understand what ahuman being isn't telling you
and then understanding whatparts of your personality you
need to bring out, what storiesthat you need to tell in order
to do that. You'll also justmake wildly different editorial
choices. So where does AI comeinto this?
Mhmm.
The thing I've noticed with AI and maybe at
some point, this will change.You know? I am I am notorious
(11:07):
for saying, I said this sixmonths ago. I've learned
something new. Here's what I'velearned.
This is what's changed.
George B. Thomas (11:12):
Yeah.
Liz Moorhead (11:13):
But as it stands right now, there are always
going to be editorialdifferences between,
I will tell you what persona they have. I will
tell you what they're feelingand why right now. This is my
resume. These are examples of myvoice. These are the things that
I do.
We'll get really dang close to that AI facsimile
(11:34):
meeting that emotional humanneed where they are. But if I
were to ask George to do thesame thing, he'd probably start
with, you know, this reminds meof a very specific time in my
life where I was, you know, logcabin in the whatever.
George B. Thomas (11:49):
Oh, yeah. Right? Tell the story. Come on.
Liz Moorhead (11:51):
You know, it's it's the it's the it's the log
cabin. It's the it it andrapping, there's a lot
happening. Yeah. So when I thinkabout what it is that AI lacks,
it gets really close, Max. Butwhat if I put two things down in
front of me where we've promptedthe crap out of AI?
And George has done this, and hegets this from me every time.
(12:13):
I'm like, George sauce ismissing. Something's missing.
There's a story missing here.There is the, let me get down on
your level as a human being andrelate to you.
Right? But this is where I thinkpeople get it all wrong, Max.
Like, why are we trying to fakethat? That is the most important
part of storytelling. That isthe most important part.
That is the high value work youshould be doubling down on. And
(12:35):
let AI deal with
the stuff of, can you give me a good pros and
cons, Salesforce versus HubSpotand a chart? Like, can you list
that stuff out for me?
Can you expand this section? You should be
doing the work of building thehuman connections because that's
how you make the sale. That ishow you get peep like, when
people sit in front of you in asales conversation, that is when
(12:55):
they are getting you. That iswhen they are getting that most
authentic part of you. The goalof content isn't just to
educate.
It's also to create that humanconnection and experience before
they get in front of you,earning the trust faster.
George B. Thomas (13:08):
Now, Max, here's the thing. And then and
then we'll go, Chad, to yourquestion. Here's the thing, Max.
In thirty years, when you've hada robot buddy for ten years, and
the robot buddy can go youremember that day when we're
gonna go meet Susie and you sawshe had three mimosas and you
just kept walking by? Now all ofa sudden, there's a historical
(13:29):
context, a historical timelineto where what Liz says is maybe
a little bit different.
But I I'm I man, the amount oftimes that I've heard, where's
the story? Where's the story?Like, where's the pain?
Liz Moorhead (13:42):
Where's This could be written by anybody.
Max Cohen (13:44):
Where's
Liz Moorhead (13:44):
the story? Where are you? Why do you care about
this? That's always the thingthat comes up. The other thing I
will say too to just kinda add alittle bit on top of that is
that I could also tell an AIprompt, like, hey.
I wanna write an article calledwhat is a content strategy. Here
is a deeply detailed, like,experience of my time as a
content manager, the time I wasasked this question, how it
feels, but it also doesn't getmy brand of weird. Like, it's
(14:07):
only ever going to eat what it'salready consumed. It may not
bring new metaphors or weirdcolorful language. It may not
know that I want to describewhat it felt like to be asked
what a content strategy is andwhere is it when I thought that
was my editorial calendar, and Iwanted to sink into the floor
and become one with the tile,and I could not do that.
George B. Thomas (14:25):
Now I will say this I will say this, though,
because I passed out then cameto, when I was generating
something, and it actually usedthe word ain't in it. And I was
like, wait. What? Hold up.Anyway, Chad, what's what's your
question for Liz?
Chad Hohn (14:42):
Yeah. I mean, I had, you know, kind of, like, an idea
of a question before, like, an esyncing of a question before
Liz Moorhead (14:50):
Concept of a question, maybe?
Chad Hohn (14:52):
The a question of a question, my own questioning
mind.
Max Cohen (14:56):
Mhmm.
Chad Hohn (14:57):
And I was questioning it, actually.
Max Cohen (14:59):
The question that's existing within the context
Chad Hohn (15:01):
of you. Questioning it. Yeah. But, anyway, but I I
kinda have, like you know, Iwanna connect a couple dots here
because, like, I think whatGeorge was talking about is
really interesting, and then Iwanna ask Liz a question. Right?
Because, like, what Max askedis, do we think you know, why
are we so sure that this can'tactually become a human thing?
And then, like, we were talkingabout a discovery call. Like,
(15:22):
oh, well, if you have an AI, doa discovery call. Is it gonna
connect humanly? Right?
And there's, like, a couplepieces I wanna bring in here too
just, like, for for context.But, like, if you could program
an AI model even with, like, avideo avatar that could do a
discovery call or something,right, like, a video gets better
or video like, if people knewthat it was an AI, even though a
(15:46):
superhuman person programmed itand built this model that was
bringing it in, do you thinkpeople would pay for that
discovery call or, you know,like, that service. Right?
Whatever service that you'rebuilding, you're getting an AI
to do some of the more gruntworky type front end stuff, you
(16:08):
know, on that business service.And, I mean, you know, this
could be for providing contentstrategy.
You take the brain dump of yourexperiences. I mean, like, for
for me, like, every wakingmoment of my professional life
is recorded in Zoom. Yeah. Youknow? And, like, you just dump
all that stuff up, and it justchunks on it with the old brain
(16:30):
wallet for a while and a wholebunch of NVIDIA GPU cluster and
then spits out, like, you know,Chad discovery call
extraordinaire, right, orsomething like that.
Or, like Right. Is that, like, aworld that could happen? And,
like, do you think people wouldpay for that? It or is that,
like, something that would bejust too is it, like, too spooky
(16:53):
for us right now? It's gonnabecome commonplace in the
future?
I mean, like, you know, nobodyhad computers. Nobody had a just
a information highway in theirpocket every second of every
day. Like, nobody had theability to connect to the
Internet anywhere in the worldbecause there's, like, 7,000
satellites just beaminginterwebs down everywhere.
(17:14):
Right? Like, this is all stuffthat just, like, in such a short
period of time because AI isincreasing faster than double
every seven years like Moore'slaw would state.
I mean, it's just bonkers howfast it's going. You know, what
are your feelings or thoughtsabout? Or are we really, again,
to reiterate what Max is talkingabout with, like, additional
context? Like, would people payfor that kind of a service if it
(17:38):
could be built, or, like, isthat something that we should
even be considering? Right?
Liz Moorhead (17:43):
So It's a hard have no. But I have more open
minded thoughts here than youmight think. Like, I'm not gonna
sit here and
be like, well, we should hug all the humans all
the time, and it's all great.Right? Like, the reality is
George B. Thomas (17:54):
I mean, I like hugs.
Liz Moorhead (17:56):
Yeah. I do like hugs. Me too. But the reality is
is it's gonna matter on aboutcontext. Right?
So when I think about, like,some of the track transactions I
have right now that may not beAI, maybe they are. I don't
know. I think about, like, thelittle chatbots that I talk to
when I'm dealing with customerservice. You know, I'm thinking
about more transactionalconversations. Right?
I think it depends on as anthere these are gonna be
(18:18):
organizational decisions thatyou're gonna have to make.
Right? When you think about thevalue of a discovery call, is it
just transactional informationthat should be given? Right? And
I don't I don't think that's thecase.
I think there are some peoplewho will do that, but the value
of a discovery call is kindalike to size each other up. It's
not just about it is not justabout at least from me when I
(18:42):
have both been in sales rolesand when I have been talking to
someone on a sales team. I'm notjust looking for, I'm not just
looking for an answer to aquestion. I'm trying to
understand how you problemsolve. I'm trying to understand
who's the ahs behind thecurtain, and is there a vibe fit
(19:02):
there?
Chad Hohn (19:03):
Sure.
Liz Moorhead (19:03):
Right? So I think it's going to depend be heavily
dependent on what your salesprocess is and what it is that
you do and sell. Because ifyou're in b to c and it's
product and it's a onetimetransaction, that may be
something that's fine. But ifwe're talking about a discovery
call, my guys, what is itactually that we're discovering?
It sounds like what we'recommunicating is that we don't
(19:24):
have enough time to talk to youunless you actually wanna give
us money.
And I think that is a veryhilarious stance to take,
especially in a b to b spacewhere everybody's a trusted
partner. Everybody'sstrategically on your side. Did
you know our people are ourgreatest differentiator? Wow,
Janice. I'd really love to knowthat if you could show me them.
Right? Like like, that's thething. This is I think what
(19:48):
we're going to see is thechoices that organizations make
with AI Mhmm. Are going tocommunicate whether they like it
or not, how much they actuallyvalue the partnerships, the
relationship building. Yeah.
Again, you should be using AI atstrategic parts of your process.
(20:09):
What if you built a great AItool on your website that had
the answers to the most pressingquestions of your customers that
allowed them to get some of thatfirsthand knowledge in a
self-service way.
Max Cohen (20:22):
Mhmm.
Liz Moorhead (20:22):
But when they talk to sales, they are talking to a
human being. Mhmm. Now, again,I'm sure there will be creative
ways in which we will see AIintegrated into our lives. In
fact, I'm sure we will find waysthat AI will trick us into like,
oh my god. I didn't realize thatwasn't a human.
Max Cohen (20:41):
Yeah.
Liz Moorhead (20:42):
Congratulations. You just broke the trust of your
customer.
George B. Thomas (20:45):
Mhmm. So so I know, Chad, you have a question
you wanna ask, but I have to dipinto that if if what Liz just
said created some curiosity of,like, wait. What do you mean
tricked that I'm a human or nota human in a world where that's
actually a possibility? Youshould go listen to today's
(21:06):
episode of wake up with AI wherewe actually day?
Liz Moorhead (21:10):
It's because this will drop
George B. Thomas (21:12):
Oh, this is, this is 10:18, the morning of
10:18. Go listen to WakeUpAIwhere we talked about retinal
scanners for humans versus
Max Cohen (21:25):
bots. Anyway Okay. Nerd. Nerd. Nerd.
Nerd. Chat. Chat. Chat, you have
George B. Thomas (21:31):
a you have a question, brother. Nerd.
Chad Hohn (21:33):
Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm just you know, I was just
saying, like, imagine a worldlike, this is where my brain
went. Like, imagine a worldwhere you have, like, the
ability to have a full beans,like, here's a triage of
everything that we offer as a bto b or a b to c space, AI
interaction, and it's a page onyour site where when people are
(21:53):
trying to learn about yourbusiness and they don't really
wanna commit to talking tosomebody yet, but you have this
super sick resource where theycan interact with something
almost like they're on ameeting, but it's all AI, that
sucker spits out some sort of acustomer fit metric and then
goes back into your CRM. Andwhen they book a call, you
(22:16):
already know a lot about thatcustomer because of their
interactions with your reallyhelpful resource that tells them
who you are and what you do.And, honestly, it probably saves
your team time.
But the delivery mechanism is, Ithink, really awesome, like,
that Liz was talking about.Like, hey. We actually care
about you because when youschedule a meeting with us,
we're gonna talk to you with ahuman. But, like, we also have
(22:36):
this super dope thing where youcan tell we care about, like,
giving our humans forcemultipliers to their day and
allowing them to actually engageand, you know, be with you
present. Like, I mean, man, itit's funny.
At RBP, like, she she talksabout the human element. And and
at our company, Roofing BusinessPartner, we have, like, a sales
(22:58):
rep that, like, every time he'sfinally done and gets a guy
like, a salesperson, you know,across the finish line, like,
the the roofing company that hesold, like, the dude practically
wants to marry him. You know?Like, I mean, they just love
him. He's like a van lifer, andhe'll just talk to him for,
like, five hours on the phone,you know, and just, like hey.
He's awesome. I won't name him,but he has been on TV. So there
(23:20):
you go.
George B. Thomas (23:20):
Okay. There you go. So I'm only I'm gonna
throw down one more rule. Onerule as we move forward because
I don't want this to be the LizAI show.
Chad Hohn (23:27):
Right. Right.
George B. Thomas (23:28):
Any question that we ask moving forward can't
have anything to do with AI, buteverything to do with content.
Max Cohen (23:35):
Sure. I got one. Alright, Liz. I've been saying
this for a while, and I want youto tell me if I'm crazy or not.
Yes.
So oftentimes when I'd be havingconversation with customers,
even back when I was, like,onboarding. Right? There was all
the, you know, back then, it waslike, get them to blog, get them
to blog, get them to blog.Right? Because that was, like,
the lowest barrier of entry, Ithink, to content creation back
(23:56):
in the day.
Right? And I still, to anextent, maybe it is today too.
Right? But I, you know, a lot ofpeople would start to ask me
about video. And, obviously, asI started getting more into the
creating video for I hate sayingthe word b to b, but, you know,
TikTok ing about HubSpot era ofmy life, you know, and people
would ask me kind of, you know,how to get into it or why it's
(24:19):
important.
You know, the line that I wouldcommonly refer back to is, like,
we're in the age of where peoplelike to watch, not read. Right?
And is that maybe just because Idon't like reading, or is there
any merit to that, statement?What do you think?
Liz Moorhead (24:35):
Yes and no. So this this reminds me of the
conversation, Max, that we hadduring an episode a long time
ago about is blogging dead. Andthe thing that always frustrates
me the most is that we have thisvery binary approach to how we
think about content modalities.Right?
Chad Hohn (24:52):
Mhmm.
Liz Moorhead (24:52):
And I think mostly because for a long time, it was
so one dimensional.
It is a blog. There will be a CTA at the
bottom.
Congratulations. Inbound. Right? Like, that was
it. And then as we startedadding
Max Cohen (25:04):
Smack that ebook button. Sorry. I had to say it.
Bam.
Liz Moorhead (25:07):
Smash that like button. But as we started
introducing more modalities anddifferent types of content.
Right? Even different types ofwritten content, people get very
antsy and say, well, okay.Clearly, this is no longer
working anymore, and we'removing to this.
And very rare and we see thisnot just in the content spaces.
(25:28):
Marketers do this all the time.Oh, so we're not doing this
anymore. We're doing this now.It's no.
No. No. No, guys. This is a yesand. This is a both and.
This is a because. So, Max, Ithink for a lot of people, the
ability to democratizeeducational video, education by
visual learning has opened up alot of abilities for people who
(25:52):
just aren't voracious readers.Right?
Max Cohen (25:55):
Yep.
Liz Moorhead (25:55):
But let me let me get to my point here. Hold on
because I see you winding up.The thing, though, is that I see
a lot of people like, there'sstill people like me. Right?
Like, I really enjoy video.
I enjoy it a lot. But for thingsI'm really learning, I'm an
insane person who has a printerright here, and I have to print
it out and I have to highlightit. If there are things I really
need to learn exactly if thereare things I really need to
(26:17):
learn, I need to also havewritten stuff because I don't
always catch everything when I'mlistening to it. I don't always
understand things when I'mwatching it. But when I have a
chance to stop and stare andlook at something, to see the
words, I just learn better.
So what I think is we're seeingthe support of a diversity of
learning styles, but also insome industries, you may just
(26:39):
have greater visual learners.You may have people who are more
academic, so they may be moreheavily weighted there. This is
where I think it comes tounderstanding your audience. I
don't think you're wrong, Max,in saying what you said, because
I think for a lot of people,that's true. Thank god there's
video because I'm not listening.
For George, let's use acompletely different context.
How many books have you readthis year, George?
George B. Thomas (27:01):
Oh, don't
Liz Moorhead (27:02):
Because you listened to them.
Chad Hohn (27:04):
Yeah. Right.
George B. Thomas (27:06):
It's it's a lot.
Chad Hohn (27:08):
I have read a lot of books.
George B. Thomas (27:10):
It's a yeah.
Liz Moorhead (27:10):
Right. But here's the thing. I can't do audiobooks
because I won't pay attention.I'll stop listening. I'll zone
out.
So, again, this is where I'mkinda getting to the like, it's
a yes and max, and I'm nottrying to, like, backdoor my way
out of an answer. I this is whatI truly believe. I wish content
creators and businesses wouldstop saying, well, this is
now dead because we have a new thing.
(27:31):
Like, no. Diversify or understand your
audience and what theirpreferences are and wait it.
Sure.
George B. Thomas (27:38):
So Yeah. But I I I wanna throw this in there,
real quick because I havelearned something about myself,
not that this podcast is aboutme. But I have realized that if
I can listen to it and see it atthe same time, it's it's double,
if not triple the impact.
Liz Moorhead (27:53):
Magic. Magic.
George B. Thomas (27:54):
So to me, I'm like, I'm I'm getting to the
point where I think I wanna buythe audiobook and the physical
book so I can listen to it andlook at it while I'm listening
to it and then also mark up,like, the the book highlight and
all that. Because I've noticedwhen I use something like
natural reader to, like, read ablog article, I actually don't
just listen. I end up looking upand watching the words as it's,
(28:18):
like, highlighting it andtalking to me. And I'm like, oh,
wow. I I really I understandthat better than if I just
listened to it.
Chad Hohn (28:28):
Anyway Mhmm. Super attention at that point.
Max Cohen (28:30):
How we're listening listening to that keyboard right
now.
George B. Thomas (28:33):
Keys, girl. I'm just gonna throw that out
there.
Liz Moorhead (28:35):
But to make a note. Sorry about that, guys.
George B. Thomas (28:37):
Yeah. No worries. No worries. So who
wants I have a question, but whowants to go next? I'll wait and
then go after that.
Chad Hohn (28:43):
That you go. I mean, you haven't asked a question, I
think, in a while.
George B. Thomas (28:47):
So, Liz, actually, I have two I wanna
ask. I'll ask this one and if wecan fit the next one, and then
we'll get to it. Liz, I wannaask you what you have seen as
the most common silent killersof content programs, and how do
you identify and address thembefore it's too late?
Liz Moorhead (29:08):
This is where I put on my content therapist hat
and hold up a content doll andsay where in the doll does it
hurt, and then we go from there.Because it really is going to
depend on the organization. Sofor example, I look at I think
of it like symptoms. Right?Like, if somebody's telling me
it feels like we're reinventingthe wheel every time we're
creating content, that means youdon't have a documented process
(29:30):
with platforms that support theprocess with people who provide
governance, oversight,execution, and accountability.
Like, that that's what it saysright there. Like, one of the
biggest killers is you do notactually have content
infrastructure. You you you knowhow to write a blog article. You
have a content strategy. Youmaybe use Google Docs.
(29:53):
Maybe you use No. Guys, it is amachine. Like, you should be
putting in ideas and contentspits out. You should have
frameworks in place with anowner overseeing it who says,
hey, guys. Absolutely.
We'd love to do that, butthere's no room in our schedule
for that. So if we're saying yesto this, what are we saying no
to? When I was the editor inchief at Impact, I had a very
(30:15):
regimented ninety day cycle thatI ran for couple years where I
literally put, and these are BobRuffalo's three flex spots where
he could just blow up my lifeand ask for three things every
month. They don't roll over. Youcan't keep them like vacation
days, but they're there.
Right? So it's about, do youactually have a system? It
(30:39):
reminds me of the book atomichabits. Right? You know, you
don't fall to the level of yourhabits.
You fall
George B. Thomas (30:44):
to the
Chad Hohn (30:45):
level of
Liz Moorhead (30:45):
your systems. Hi, Max.
Max Cohen (30:48):
I know. I know.
Liz Moorhead (30:49):
So I would say that's one of the number one
that's number the one contentprogram killers. Another one is,
you're not actually committed tocontent. Like, this is a very
basic one. Mhmm. But, like, Iremember in the in a
conversation we recently had,George, with a client, you know,
I said, hey.
I'm actually not here to provideany judgment on what's
(31:09):
happening. I asked very fewquestions going into this audit
intentionally because I wantedto just go fresh and see what I
would find. And the symptoms I'mfinding here says to me, there
isn't really a content priority.So probably the reason why
you're seeing some challengeshere is, like, you like, I think
I'm seeing a symptom of wehaven't committed one way or the
other, and we feel guilty aboutnot having made that decision.
George B. Thomas (31:31):
Yeah.
Liz Moorhead (31:31):
And so often, like, it's just a lack of
commitment, and I see thatactually with no judgment. I'm
not sitting here
everybody should have a content program.
No. One of the other clients that George and I
work on together, and I'm therefor content, we don't have a
content strategy running forthem currently. We're doing
plenty of other stuff that isreally geared toward their
bottom line. We're doing tons ofsales enablement things. We're
(31:53):
doing a lot of website stuff.
Like, that's just not thepriority right now. So I think
sometimes what will happen isthat you will have organizations
who believe they should be doingcontent. So they start doing
content, but they don't they'renot bought in, and it's not buy
in. It's just like maybe it'sactually not right for them. So
they're kinda doing it 50% tosee if it'll work.
But if, again, if you don't putthe systems in place with the
(32:15):
owner and you actually commit todoing a strategy that is built
around your business, like, ifyou're not doing it and you're
doing it 50, it's always gonnahurt. So just have a
conversation internally. Noone's gonna judge you. Content
Santa isn't gonna put you on anaughty list. Like, just you're
either doing it or you're notdoing it.
And the other thing I will sayis that this is the greatest
(32:39):
content sin in Georgia. Ihaven't even told you this one.
Max Cohen (32:42):
Uh-oh.
Liz Moorhead (32:43):
I believe two things are true about great
content.
George B. Thomas (32:46):
I hope this is
Liz Moorhead (32:47):
It is selfless. No. It is selfless education,
and we need to stop pretendingwe're not in the business of
persuasion. Oh. We have had somuch blowback.
I don't like sales. I don't wanna talk to
sales. I don't wanna feel likeI'm persuading.
We're not here as, like, charity robots, guys
Max Cohen (33:06):
Yeah.
Liz Moorhead (33:06):
Just, like, doling out education. Do we have
conviction and firm beliefsabout what it is that we are
teaching and educating about? A%. Do we have a very specific
point of view that we arebringing out into the world and
for the right people, this isright for them? Absolutely.
The number one killer I see ofcontent is we've stopped trying
(33:27):
to make an argument. We stoppedtrying to have an opinion
because we're so afraid thatwe're gonna be seen as selling.
Make an argument. Like, George,you and I have been talking
about Aristotle's rhetoric, andI have been studying it.
George B. Thomas (33:40):
Yeah.
Liz Moorhead (33:41):
It's the art of persuasion.
Chad Hohn (33:43):
Yeah.
Liz Moorhead (33:43):
That is what rhetoric is, and it's ethos,
logos, and pathos.
George B. Thomas (33:48):
I love it.
Liz Moorhead (33:48):
Logos is your facts, what it is that you're
talking about, the way you'remaking the case. Your ethos is
actually not your values. Yeah.It's not your values. It's not
this.
Ethos actually is what what isyour authority to be reporting
on these facts? Empathos,emotional appeal. Mhmm. Are you
recognizing the human beings infront of you, and are you
(34:09):
showing up accordingly? Andempathy is a small fraction of
that.
We have to stop pretending we'renot in the business of
persuasion, guys. What that'slike I remember when I stood on
stage at Impact Live at 02/2019,and I put on a giant screen
behind me that says, I likecontent that makes money. And
people started laughing, andthey got uncomfortable. I'm
like, we need to stop pretendingthat we're here to what? We're
(34:31):
making them aware of our brandso they'll wanna go to lunch
with us?
No.
George B. Thomas (34:35):
I like lunch.
Liz Moorhead (34:35):
Want them money. I like sandwiches and lunch, but,
like, that's not what we're herefor.
George B. Thomas (34:39):
I don't know why we're smashing hugs and
lunch, on this podcast.
Liz Moorhead (34:44):
Maybe I just need a hug, and I'm cranky and
hungry.
But, yeah, those are my thoughts.
Max Cohen (34:48):
Yeah. Yep.
Liz Moorhead (34:50):
Those are my thoughts.
Chad Hohn (34:51):
That's good.
George B. Thomas (34:51):
Anybody else have a question? Because if not,
I got I got one more, but I wantyou guys to, like, have an
opportunity here with content.
Chad Hohn (34:59):
That whole thing talking about the strategy, I
was just was, like, so, youknow, captured by that last
little bit. I mean, it you know,because, like, I'm not, you
know, I'm I'm all on thetechnical side. Like, I don't
really do anything withwebsites. The the con my content
is, like, orchestrating astructure of a HubSpot portal
for somebody to use so that theylike to use it, so they wanna do
(35:20):
their job. So it's a forcemultiplier for the business.
Right? That's, like, my kind ofcontent. The guy like I make the
UI look good and work well anddo the things repeatably. Right?
That's, like, for me.
But I I would in in that vein, II guess my question for Liz is,
like, does the out of the boxHubSpot marketing hub, like,
(35:43):
calendar and tasking and all ofthat business, the like, does
that actually get the job done,or is it, like, is that a big
turd or what? You know? Like,what do you think?
Liz Moorhead (35:54):
I really hope I really hope no one from HubSpot
is listing.
Chad Hohn (35:58):
Because, like yeah.
Liz Moorhead (36:00):
Yeah.
Chad Hohn (36:00):
Because you don't use it. Uh-oh. Uh-oh. Because, like,
I look at it
Liz Moorhead (36:04):
I'm gonna ask you what it is.
Chad Hohn (36:05):
Admin, but I don't know the things. So I don't know
if, like I'm like, oh, yeah.This is where you do your
tasking, and here's where yourposts are scheduled, and here's
where your content. You guyscould work on it. You can have
mention each other.
You know? Or or is that notgonna cut it for them? Right?
Liz Moorhead (36:19):
Here yeah. So, here's my realistic and honest
answer. And I say this assomeone who sued.
George B. Thomas (36:26):
Just I will get sued. Ask. Don't get a sued.
Liz Moorhead (36:28):
I love HubSpot, and my answer is informed by two
very distinct use cases. I havebeen a content leader inside for
a for an in house company. So Iwas at a HubSpot Diamond Partner
agency that also had a massivemedia company side of the
business, and I exclusively ranour content. That included five
(36:51):
to 10 new articles a week, fourdifferent podcasts, videos, and
digital curriculum. Okay?
So not small stuff. I have alsobeen service side where I am
using HubSpot to develop, build,and execute content strategies.
I will tell you, I find most ofit to be window dressing. I
don't really find the SEOcontent strategy tool, for
(37:14):
example, to be terribly helpful.Mostly because I think, for
example, that tool in particularhas a bit of an identity crisis.
Is this here to help me track acampaign, or is it help here to
help me build a strategy? Andit's here to help me build a
strategy. You're doing so with alot of assumptions about, quite
frankly, the strategic know howof the person clicking the
buttons. Like, it's not reallybuilt for that. I also find the
(37:37):
content tracking in thecampaigns tool to be much more
effective.
I have used it sometimes if Ireally wanna track the growth of
a topic cluster overall. But forthe most part, that's just like
an extra step. Now, also, here'swhere we have to get into the
human side of the business.Right? So I work for
chuckleheads like George.
And I say chucklehead as a signof his Wow. I love you so much.
George B. Thomas (37:59):
Holy mackerel. Do we know
Max Cohen (38:01):
do you wanna know why they say
Chad Hohn (38:02):
I don't have my thing.
Liz Moorhead (38:04):
Do you wanna know why I say chuckleheads?
Max Cohen (38:06):
That rhymes.
Liz Moorhead (38:07):
Because every content manager who who rises up
in the ranks is going to dealwith type a executive folks who
need to know answers now. Theydo not want to click in to 18
different tabs of HubSpot and anavigation that is constantly
changing to understand wheresomething is or what's
(38:27):
happening. They are notinterested in that if they are
even inside the tool at all. Sothe way like, you have to come
up with a communication strategywith your leadership, with your
executive team. And I guaranteeyou, the moment you're making a
C suite executive click on theirown into somewhere in a HubSpot
portal to figure out wheresomething is, you've already
(38:50):
kinda lost the battle.
So often, I'm gonna be doing myproject management where my c
suite is going to be doing mostof their work. Because I need to
be able to do 80% of mycommunication with my c suite,
with my leadership. Whoever I'mreporting to as a content leader
within my organization wherethey don't have to proactively
(39:12):
ask me where something is orwhat they need to click. It
needs to be something native,quick, fast, and easy. Boom.
George B. Thomas (39:18):
Alright. So Here
Chad Hohn (39:20):
we go.
George B. Thomas (39:20):
Here here's what I'm gonna say to you.
Trouble. No. You're not introuble, and I don't disagree
with anything you said. Chad,let's get nerdy for a second.
Oh. And specifically to what Lizsaid. C suite
Max Cohen (39:34):
Mhmm.
George B. Thomas (39:34):
If doing it right, should be in HubSpot
because HubSpot is the all inone place for their team, sales,
marketing service. It should bethe home base for their
reporting. So Mhmm. They theyshould be in there. Here's the
thing.
If somebody at HubSpot islistening anybody in there?
Chad Hohn (39:53):
Oh, it's just Poor, poor Mike. Yeah. If
George B. Thomas (39:55):
if if anybody is listening, if we were to take
the projects tool and graduateit to what it could be And,
actually, like, there there is aworld where you could have,
like, a ClickUp, Asana,Teamworks inside of HubSpot.
Yes. They would just take thetime to code projects to be what
(40:18):
projects could be, but it's satthere for the last four or five
years Yeah. And not been changedor turned into anything. And so
could the content strategy toolsbecause by the way, Liz was
talking about the topic clustertool Right.
Right. Right. SEOrecommendations. Because by the
way, SEO recommendations arevery valuable and useful for you
(40:38):
as a HubSpot user and yourwebsite and making it good. But,
like so imagine a world whereit's topic cluster
Max Cohen (40:44):
Mhmm.
George B. Thomas (40:45):
Campaigns tool, SEO recommendations, and a
project management system forcontent around especially now
that you've got podcasts
Max Cohen (40:54):
Mhmm.
George B. Thomas (40:55):
In HubSpot. Right. So now you got podcasts,
case studies, articles. Yo, weneed a way to manage all of what
you're building over here. Socan somebody please catch up?
Max Cohen (41:06):
Mhmm.
Chad Hohn (41:07):
Anyway Well, I mean, on the marketing calendar,
you're supposed to be able to,like, add tasks and do a couple
things. Right? But, like Youcan. That seems like it's those
tasks aren't connected toprojects. Like, I remember being
an inbound.
I think it was, like, theHubSpot Academy timeline. Right?
And it's like, oh, yeah. In2019, we released HubSpot
projects, and it's like afootnote in history because it's
(41:29):
there. But, like okay.
Great.
George B. Thomas (41:32):
Yeah. The the fact that you have sales tasks,
marketing tasks, and projectsYeah. They're not the same
thing.
Max Cohen (41:41):
Yeah. Mhmm.
Chad Hohn (41:42):
Yeah. It's I mean, that goes back, I think, to some
of HubSpot architecture. Like,not every object is a first
class citizen object. Right?Yeah.
Yeah.
Liz Moorhead (41:50):
Well, I think the other reality is is that if we
think about and I'm thinkingabout the c suite folks who I
have worked with in differentorganizations. Right? Like,
George, getting you to useHubSpot in the way it's possibly
intended with the project'stool, I don't see that as a
problem for you. But that'sbecause HubSpot is in your DNA.
But if I think about businesseswhere HubSpot is not part of
(42:11):
their daily workflow, that'swhere I tend to run into
problems.
Because the moment I have to aska CEO to open up a different
tool that they will never useexcept for this, they're gonna
get cranky. Usually, what theywant is a link that is public
basing, that is a single sourceof truth that they could take a
look at at 3AM when they'rewondering where something is,
and I really don't want themtexting me. You know what I
(42:32):
mean? Like, it's stuff likethat. Or we had a client for a
long time where, like, they arejust more relationship focused
people.
He wanted to talk to me. Mhmm.He wanted to have conversations.
George B. Thomas (42:43):
On the phone.
Liz Moorhead (42:44):
Is where I I know. But this is where I would say
content managers this is thething I always teach when I do
content manager training isalways the first module. You are
a relationship manager first.That is what you are. If people
see you when you're coming downthe hallway virtual or otherwise
and they start running and theydon't wanna work with you, your
job is already done.
Your jewel your goal is tounderstand what people need from
(43:05):
you, and and I mean that in theneeds that they're not telling
you. You need to go out of yourway to become fluent in the
language style of theircommunication. Your job, yes, is
to get them to see the value ofthe content of your creating,
but, like, don't be the foodblogger who tells me 18,000
paragraphs about grandmother andthe meatballs before you
actually give me the meatballrecipe. I don't care. Don't make
(43:27):
people work that hard and thenbe upset when they don't get
what they do.
Like, what you do. Like, that'sjust the reality. Your goal is
to be a relationship manager.Uh-oh, Max.
George B. Thomas (43:37):
Max, what what do you think is now now, Max,
we're moving into the questionsthat can be answered in one
minute or less because we'requickly running out of time, but
what's on your brain?
Max Cohen (43:47):
No. I'm just about to have, like, a you guys mentioned
the projects tool, and I, youyou know how, like, there were
some tools that were just hiddenbehind, like, the global search
George B. Thomas (44:00):
for a while?
Max Cohen (44:00):
Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. I, I went in there to be like,
oh, where's the how do how doyou even get to that project's
tool anymore? Like, does it doesit still exist?
And, I stumbled upon, theknowledge base article about it.
And, I I didn't notice it untilright this very moment that
Uh-oh. This projects tool, whicharguably hasn't been touched
(44:26):
since I was onboarding customerswith it Yep. This glorified to
do list on your iPhone sitsright below the product updates
tab Yeah. In the main top right.
Chad Hohn (44:44):
Yeah.
Liz Moorhead (44:44):
Yeah.
Max Cohen (44:45):
Yet we're stuffing playbooks in the library tab? In
the menu? Who made thisdecision? Oh god. To put a whole
another episode.
To do this the
Liz Moorhead (45:01):
Oh my god. Next episode, Max Cohen airing of
grievances.
Max Cohen (45:06):
Right next to the HubSpot Academy link.
George B. Thomas (45:09):
Somebody call 911.
Max Cohen (45:11):
Put play books in the godforsaken library tab. Oh,
there's nothing behind me up,Max. And we're going to the guy.
To explode. I didn't even knowthat was sitting I didn't know
you could access this toolanymore.
Yet I god. I'm gonna shut upbefore I Do you know who you
(45:34):
remind
Liz Moorhead (45:35):
me of right now? You remind for my for my
chronically online TikTokers outthere, the guy who screams at
people to wash their rice,that's who you were just now.
Max Cohen (45:43):
Okay. I am just sorry. I'm,
George B. Thomas (45:47):
You need a minute, Brian?
Max Cohen (45:48):
I'm over I'm overcome with rage.
Chad Hohn (45:51):
I think I saw a beat
Max Cohen (45:52):
about to blow, man. Of all the decisions of all the
decisions that were made aboutHubSpot's navigation this past
year.
Liz Moorhead (46:00):
Yeah.
I'm just so glad you would've gotta be
Max Cohen (46:02):
for that. Objects to a sitting in the main nav, I'm
speechless.
Chad Hohn (46:08):
Well, not really.
Max Cohen (46:09):
You're the opposite you're the opposite of
speechless.
George B. Thomas (46:13):
I just I don't know if you know what that word
means, but
Liz Moorhead (46:16):
I'm just the opposite of that. Minutes later.
Max Cohen (46:18):
I'm so confused.
Chad Hohn (46:20):
Oh, it's ticklish. Yeah. That was great.
George B. Thomas (46:21):
Let's let's land the plane, Liz. What's the
one takeaway that you wannaleave people around content
before we get them back to theirregularly scheduled day?
Liz Moorhead (46:30):
And a lot of tools and a lot of things can become
distraction. They are very shinybells and whistles. There are
gonna be lots of new ways to tocreate content, to distribute
content, to ideate, to do all ofthose different things. But at
the end of the day, content isyour way of creating a
connection with the people, thehumans you are trying to help
(46:54):
with what it is that you do orsell better than anybody else.
You either care about helpinghumans or you don't, and you
can't fake that.
And what's going to happen isthat we are now finding greater
ways to have more shortcuts putin front of us. The companies
(47:14):
that actually give a thing aboutthe humans that they are
serving. Look. We can purse twothings can be true. We can admit
we're in the business ofpersuasion.
We can also be people who aregenuinely trying to help,
genuinely trying to be ofservice. And I think the
distinctions between thecompanies that are actually that
(47:36):
way and those who say they arethat way, it's going to become
much more abundantly clear.Content is all about the art and
artistry of what you never see.It is the iceberg that is only
strong because of the piece thatis under the water. There is art
to this.
(47:56):
There are tools now that we haveat our disposal to automate,
refine, and scale certain partsof our process, but you're still
an artist. Don't forget it.
George B. Thomas (48:07):
Okay. Hub Heroes, we've reached the end of
another episode. Will Lord Lackcontinue to loom over the
community, or will we be able todefeat him in the next episode
of the Hub Heroes podcast? Makesure you tune in and find out in
the next episode. Make sure youhead over to the hubheroes.com
to get the latest episodes andbecome part of the League of
(48:30):
Heroes.
FYI, if you're part of theLeague of Heroes, you'll get the
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power up potential as well. Makesure you share this podcast with
a friend. Leave a review if youlike what you're listening to,
and use the hashtag, hashtag hubeuros podcast on any of the
socials, and let us know whatstrategy conversation you'd like
(48:53):
to listen into next. Until nexttime, when we meet and combine
our forces, remember to be ahappy, helpful, humble human,
and, of course, always belooking for a way to be
someone's hero.
Do you live in a world filled with corporate data? Are
you plagued by siloeddepartments? Are your lackluster
growth strategies demolishingyour chances for success? Are
you held captive by the evilmenace Lord Lack? Lack of time,
lack of strategy, and lack ofthe most important and powerful
(00:24):
tool in your superhero toolbelt, knowledge.
Never fear, hub heroes. Getready to don your cape and mask,
move into action, and become thehub hero your organization
needs. Tune in each week to jointhe league of extraordinary
inbound heroes as we help youeducate, empower, and execute.
(00:50):
Hub Heroes, it's time to uniteand activate your powers. Before
we begin, we need to disclosethat Devin is currently employed
by HubSpot at the time of thisepisode's recording.
This podcast is in no wayaffiliated with or produced by
HubSpot, and the thoughts andopinions expressed by Devin
during the show are that of hisown and in no way represent
(01:10):
those of his employer.
Max Cohen (01:12):
Liz. Me? Oh, where were you on January 6?
George B. Thomas (01:17):
Yeah. That's how that interview is gonna go,
baby.
Max Cohen (01:21):
And an all day leadership team meeting going,
hey, guys. Have you seen what'shappening on CNN? Or
George B. Thomas (01:27):
is that
Max Cohen (01:27):
what they were calling it they were calling it
an all day leadership meeting.Yeah. Exactly. That's what it
was. That's where they peacefuland peaceful and patriotic all
day leadership meeting.
Chad Hohn (01:36):
That's right. Here they lead.
George B. Thomas (01:38):
So hang on. You didn't even say the year,
bro. So does she have aleadership meeting on that date
every year?
Max Cohen (01:46):
That would be convenient, wouldn't it be?
George B. Thomas (01:47):
Yeah. It would be.
Max Cohen (01:48):
Yeah. Sounds like an alibi to me.
Liz Moorhead (01:49):
Convenient, wouldn't it?
Chad Hohn (01:50):
Seems like a possibility.
Liz Moorhead (01:54):
Well, Max,
Max Cohen (01:55):
I know I'm just explain it can someone explain
the the topic of the episode sothat joke works? Yeah. How does
that do?
George B. Thomas (02:02):
We we should probably do that.
Max Cohen (02:04):
Yeah. And I'm sorry for the guys I'll figure out
Liz Moorhead (02:08):
my camera. But welcome to a very special
episode that I have alreadyimmediately regret agreeing to.
A couple weeks ago, one of ourlisteners said they would really
like to hear an episode wherethe guys just ask me questions
about content. Whatever theywant. My thoughts.
So hi. I'm Liz Morehead, contenttherapist, AI poet. Ask me
(02:34):
anything. George, I'm gonna turnit over to you to be the master
of ceremonies while I just kindaget emotionally uncomfortable
here.
George B. Thomas (02:40):
Yeah. Yeah. Get ready to be in the, therapy
chair, for this episode. Sohere's the thing. What I want
all the listeners to know is,listen, I have been working
with, each other for the lasttwo years.
A lot of what you see onSidekick Strategies, George b
Thomas, like, it's it's thatcontent. It's human centric.
(03:02):
It's on brand. It's, like, superpowerful. Like, we just it's
been a a pleasure being able tocreate valuable content to the
world together.
And so I'm actually superexcited, that another human,
another human was like, hey. Canwe dive into Liz's brain? As
scary as it may be, I added thatlast part. They didn't. And so
(03:26):
we we get to ask you questions,around content and all that good
stuff.
So I'll I'll start. I'll throwone out, because I definitely
wanna make sure that we hit uponthis. And if we do it first, we
won't won't run out of time.Right? So, Liz, here's the
thing.
Where we're at now, we have AItools that are rapidly
(03:50):
advancing. And so how do you seethe role of content creators,
content strategist evolving inthe next three, five years? And
and I guess I wanna add on tothis. Will it become more about
managing AI outputs, or do youthink the human element will
(04:11):
remain central to effectivecontent creation? What what are
your thoughts on that topic?
Liz Moorhead (04:17):
You know that this that my answer to this question
has to start with the fact that,like, full disclosure, I was
dragged kicking, screaming,complaining, asking if I was
being punished, going into yes.George is pointing at himself.
He got me there. He got methere. I was at first, I was
definitely one of those, like,basement dwelling mouth
(04:39):
breathers.
Like, put my art, put my craft.This will but then I started
sitting with what my actual fearwas. I wasn't concerned about my
job ever being taken away. Myconcern was that AI in the hands
of the many would create quitefrankly much of what we are
seeing today. Right?
What we're seeing today is anuncanny valley effect. And for
(05:03):
those who aren't aware whatuncanny valley is, it's
essentially this scientificprinciple that the closer
something that isn't human istried to make look human like,
for example, we love Disneycharacters. Right? Disney
characters, but we know theydon't look real. They look like
a cartoon.
They feel safe. They feelwhatever. But then we see robots
(05:24):
that are meant to look likehumans, and they freak us out.
We don't like it. We have anaversion to it.
We do not trust it. Right? We'restarting to see that with
content, And I'm sure you guyshave heard the same thing. Like,
I don't know what's wrong withthis content, but I could tell
it's AI. I just I can't put myfinger on it.
Don't trust it. Somethingsomething's off. So the reason
(05:45):
why I tell this story is becausewhen I think about where content
like, the role of the contentstrategist is evolving, the
content creator, I think thereis I'll say it. Some of the fear
is substantiated. I think forsome people who have been
coasting without havingdeveloped meaningful brand
(06:07):
voice, strategy, storytellingskills where they're not where
where they're sitting heresaying, what is this blog post
gonna be?
And said, who is this for? Whatdo they need from us? How are
they gonna show up? I think forthose people, yeah, maybe you
should find a differentdiscipline or maybe those skills
you need to hone because that isreally what we're gonna be
(06:27):
looking at in terms of AI. Iactually have people coming to
me asking me for more advicethan ever about content
creation, about contentstrategy, the content audit,
George, that you and I did thisweek.
George B. Thomas (06:41):
Yep.
Liz Moorhead (06:42):
There are certain things where AI is going to
extend and amplify the power ofpeople who understand there is a
human component of the art ofcontent that will never be
replaced. You can get close. Youcan have facsimiles, but you
will always have something thatfeels off if you don't do that
(07:02):
level of work. So this is why,you know, I've talked to there
are a few content managers whoI've known through the years who
will periodically just do coffeechats with me. We'll just hang
out, talk shop, catch up.
And I'm finding the skill setsthat I am referring to people in
terms of how they differentiatethemselves, and I'm like, is it
human storytelling?Understanding that empathy is
(07:25):
not the only way you show up asa human being in content. This
is something you and I havetalked about, George. Empathy is
something that is so importantand overinflated in terms of its
importance in terms of how we docontent storytelling. But that
that's where I see this going.
It has placed a greater premiumon people who have those skills.
(07:46):
And if you find someone like aGeorge who will drag you kicking
and screaming and help youunderstand you're not being
artist, you're being amasochist, you're just being sad
to yourself, like, you willlearn how to extend your
superpowers by amplifying thesmart parts of the process that
take the most time so you can domore high value work.
George B. Thomas (08:04):
So many of those words bring me great joy
to hear you actually say that.And and the the the fun part is
and this is not a sales pitch,but, like, being able to do that
content audit and give it to thepotential client and them have
the eye like, I don't seeChatGPT having a discovery
meeting and and delivering it ina human way that actually
(08:28):
engages and interacts. So lovelove that you came kicking and
screaming. Love where you're atwith this right now. So, Chad,
Max, your turn.
Let's just
Max Cohen (08:38):
Why are we so sure that the human element cannot be
replaced by AI, Liz?
Liz Moorhead (08:44):
It comes down to what fundamentally happens in a
human interaction. So I'll tellyou a hypothetical, not so
hypothetical story. There was agirl I used to know in my
twenties where, like, she wasthe best bitch to brunch with.
No joke. Always a great story,always something really good
going on, But I always had hergo to a very specific restaurant
(09:06):
because I knew if we went tothis restaurant at a specific
time on Sunday in DC, she wouldget a window seat so I could see
what kind of tornado of hell Iwas walking into.
Right? Am I walking up? Am Iseeing she has her head in her
hands, and we've already got twoempty mimosa glasses next to
her? She hasn't dumped Kevinyet. He's still an asshole.
We're still dealing with a lotof problems. Right? Or is she
(09:27):
happy? Is
George B. Thomas (09:27):
she happy? The beat button on this episode. Oh
my gosh.
Liz Moorhead (09:33):
Butthead. Kevin was a butthead. All names have
been changed to protect themarginally innocent. Right? Or
she might be in a great mood.
There might be something goingon, but I always needed to have
emotional and situationalawareness walking up to that
table because I had tounderstand based on where she
(09:54):
was, what she needed from me.Now this is where it gets really
interesting. Right? I am stillalways Liz all the time,
inserting godfather analogieswhere they do not belong,
talking about Nicolas Cage to adegree that is deeply unhealthy.
You know, like, all of thesedifferent things
George B. Thomas (10:11):
Facts.
Liz Moorhead (10:12):
But that is my voice. That is my all the time
personality. But my tone willswitch depending on where I'm
at. Right?
Max Cohen (10:19):
Mm-mm.
Liz Moorhead (10:19):
Like, if she's if she's upset and she's sad and
she's had head on the table,Moses, blah
blah blah blah blah. Right? I'm showing up
there like,
hey, baby girl. What would Nicolas Cage do? The
only thing he'd steal, thedeclaration of independence. If
she's in a great mood, it'slike, so we're going to National
Archives. The declaration ofindependence is ours.
Right? Mhmm. But that is a veryhuman experience to sit and
(10:44):
assess and understand what ahuman being isn't telling you
and then understanding whatparts of your personality you
need to bring out, what storiesthat you need to tell in order
to do that. You'll also justmake wildly different editorial
choices. So where does AI comeinto this?
Mhmm.
The thing I've noticed with AI and maybe at
some point, this will change.You know? I am I am notorious
(11:07):
for saying, I said this sixmonths ago. I've learned
something new. Here's what I'velearned.
This is what's changed.
George B. Thomas (11:12):
Yeah.
Liz Moorhead (11:13):
But as it stands right now, there are always
going to be editorialdifferences between,
I will tell you what persona they have. I will
tell you what they're feelingand why right now. This is my
resume. These are examples of myvoice. These are the things that
I do.
We'll get really dang close to that AI facsimile
(11:34):
meeting that emotional humanneed where they are. But if I
were to ask George to do thesame thing, he'd probably start
with, you know, this reminds meof a very specific time in my
life where I was, you know, logcabin in the whatever.
George B. Thomas (11:49):
Oh, yeah. Right? Tell the story. Come on.
Liz Moorhead (11:51):
You know, it's it's the it's the it's the log
cabin. It's the it it andrapping, there's a lot
happening. Yeah. So when I thinkabout what it is that AI lacks,
it gets really close, Max. Butwhat if I put two things down in
front of me where we've promptedthe crap out of AI?
And George has done this, and hegets this from me every time.
(12:13):
I'm like, George sauce ismissing. Something's missing.
There's a story missing here.There is the, let me get down on
your level as a human being andrelate to you.
Right? But this is where I thinkpeople get it all wrong, Max.
Like, why are we trying to fakethat? That is the most important
part of storytelling. That isthe most important part.
That is the high value work youshould be doubling down on. And
(12:35):
let AI deal with
the stuff of, can you give me a good pros and
cons, Salesforce versus HubSpotand a chart? Like, can you list
that stuff out for me?
Can you expand this section? You should be
doing the work of building thehuman connections because that's
how you make the sale. That ishow you get peep like, when
people sit in front of you in asales conversation, that is when
(12:55):
they are getting you. That iswhen they are getting that most
authentic part of you. The goalof content isn't just to
educate.
It's also to create that humanconnection and experience before
they get in front of you,earning the trust faster.
George B. Thomas (13:08):
Now, Max, here's the thing. And then and
then we'll go, Chad, to yourquestion. Here's the thing, Max.
In thirty years, when you've hada robot buddy for ten years, and
the robot buddy can go youremember that day when we're
gonna go meet Susie and you sawshe had three mimosas and you
just kept walking by? Now all ofa sudden, there's a historical
(13:29):
context, a historical timelineto where what Liz says is maybe
a little bit different.
But I I'm I man, the amount oftimes that I've heard, where's
the story? Where's the story?Like, where's the pain?
Liz Moorhead (13:42):
Where's This could be written by anybody.
Max Cohen (13:44):
Where's
Liz Moorhead (13:44):
the story? Where are you? Why do you care about
this? That's always the thingthat comes up. The other thing I
will say too to just kinda add alittle bit on top of that is
that I could also tell an AIprompt, like, hey.
I wanna write an article calledwhat is a content strategy. Here
is a deeply detailed, like,experience of my time as a
content manager, the time I wasasked this question, how it
feels, but it also doesn't getmy brand of weird. Like, it's
(14:07):
only ever going to eat what it'salready consumed. It may not
bring new metaphors or weirdcolorful language. It may not
know that I want to describewhat it felt like to be asked
what a content strategy is andwhere is it when I thought that
was my editorial calendar, and Iwanted to sink into the floor
and become one with the tile,and I could not do that.
George B. Thomas (14:25):
Now I will say this I will say this, though,
because I passed out then cameto, when I was generating
something, and it actually usedthe word ain't in it. And I was
like, wait. What? Hold up.Anyway, Chad, what's what's your
question for Liz?
Chad Hohn (14:42):
Yeah. I mean, I had, you know, kind of, like, an idea
of a question before, like, an esyncing of a question before
Liz Moorhead (14:50):
Concept of a question, maybe?
Chad Hohn (14:52):
The a question of a question, my own questioning
mind.
Max Cohen (14:56):
Mhmm.
Chad Hohn (14:57):
And I was questioning it, actually.
Max Cohen (14:59):
The question that's existing within the context
Chad Hohn (15:01):
of you. Questioning it. Yeah. But, anyway, but I I
kinda have, like you know, Iwanna connect a couple dots here
because, like, I think whatGeorge was talking about is
really interesting, and then Iwanna ask Liz a question. Right?
Because, like, what Max askedis, do we think you know, why
are we so sure that this can'tactually become a human thing?
And then, like, we were talkingabout a discovery call. Like,
(15:22):
oh, well, if you have an AI, doa discovery call. Is it gonna
connect humanly? Right?
And there's, like, a couplepieces I wanna bring in here too
just, like, for for context.But, like, if you could program
an AI model even with, like, avideo avatar that could do a
discovery call or something,right, like, a video gets better
or video like, if people knewthat it was an AI, even though a
(15:46):
superhuman person programmed itand built this model that was
bringing it in, do you thinkpeople would pay for that
discovery call or, you know,like, that service. Right?
Whatever service that you'rebuilding, you're getting an AI
to do some of the more gruntworky type front end stuff, you
(16:08):
know, on that business service.And, I mean, you know, this
could be for providing contentstrategy.
You take the brain dump of yourexperiences. I mean, like, for
for me, like, every wakingmoment of my professional life
is recorded in Zoom. Yeah. Youknow? And, like, you just dump
all that stuff up, and it justchunks on it with the old brain
(16:30):
wallet for a while and a wholebunch of NVIDIA GPU cluster and
then spits out, like, you know,Chad discovery call
extraordinaire, right, orsomething like that.
Or, like Right. Is that, like, aworld that could happen? And,
like, do you think people wouldpay for that? It or is that,
like, something that would bejust too is it, like, too spooky
(16:53):
for us right now? It's gonnabecome commonplace in the
future?
I mean, like, you know, nobodyhad computers. Nobody had a just
a information highway in theirpocket every second of every
day. Like, nobody had theability to connect to the
Internet anywhere in the worldbecause there's, like, 7,000
satellites just beaminginterwebs down everywhere.
(17:14):
Right? Like, this is all stuffthat just, like, in such a short
period of time because AI isincreasing faster than double
every seven years like Moore'slaw would state.
I mean, it's just bonkers howfast it's going. You know, what
are your feelings or thoughtsabout? Or are we really, again,
to reiterate what Max is talkingabout with, like, additional
context? Like, would people payfor that kind of a service if it
(17:38):
could be built, or, like, isthat something that we should
even be considering? Right?
Liz Moorhead (17:43):
So It's a hard have no. But I have more open
minded thoughts here than youmight think. Like, I'm not gonna
sit here and
be like, well, we should hug all the humans all
the time, and it's all great.Right? Like, the reality is
George B. Thomas (17:54):
I mean, I like hugs.
Liz Moorhead (17:56):
Yeah. I do like hugs. Me too. But the reality is
is it's gonna matter on aboutcontext. Right?
So when I think about, like,some of the track transactions I
have right now that may not beAI, maybe they are. I don't
know. I think about, like, thelittle chatbots that I talk to
when I'm dealing with customerservice. You know, I'm thinking
about more transactionalconversations. Right?
I think it depends on as anthere these are gonna be
(18:18):
organizational decisions thatyou're gonna have to make.
Right? When you think about thevalue of a discovery call, is it
just transactional informationthat should be given? Right? And
I don't I don't think that's thecase.
I think there are some peoplewho will do that, but the value
of a discovery call is kindalike to size each other up. It's
not just about it is not justabout at least from me when I
(18:42):
have both been in sales rolesand when I have been talking to
someone on a sales team. I'm notjust looking for, I'm not just
looking for an answer to aquestion. I'm trying to
understand how you problemsolve. I'm trying to understand
who's the ahs behind thecurtain, and is there a vibe fit
(19:02):
there?
Chad Hohn (19:03):
Sure.
Liz Moorhead (19:03):
Right? So I think it's going to depend be heavily
dependent on what your salesprocess is and what it is that
you do and sell. Because ifyou're in b to c and it's
product and it's a onetimetransaction, that may be
something that's fine. But ifwe're talking about a discovery
call, my guys, what is itactually that we're discovering?
It sounds like what we'recommunicating is that we don't
(19:24):
have enough time to talk to youunless you actually wanna give
us money.
And I think that is a veryhilarious stance to take,
especially in a b to b spacewhere everybody's a trusted
partner. Everybody'sstrategically on your side. Did
you know our people are ourgreatest differentiator? Wow,
Janice. I'd really love to knowthat if you could show me them.
Right? Like like, that's thething. This is I think what
(19:48):
we're going to see is thechoices that organizations make
with AI Mhmm. Are going tocommunicate whether they like it
or not, how much they actuallyvalue the partnerships, the
relationship building. Yeah.
Again, you should be using AI atstrategic parts of your process.
(20:09):
What if you built a great AItool on your website that had
the answers to the most pressingquestions of your customers that
allowed them to get some of thatfirsthand knowledge in a
self-service way.
Max Cohen (20:22):
Mhmm.
Liz Moorhead (20:22):
But when they talk to sales, they are talking to a
human being. Mhmm. Now, again,I'm sure there will be creative
ways in which we will see AIintegrated into our lives. In
fact, I'm sure we will find waysthat AI will trick us into like,
oh my god. I didn't realize thatwasn't a human.
Max Cohen (20:41):
Yeah.
Liz Moorhead (20:42):
Congratulations. You just broke the trust of your
customer.
George B. Thomas (20:45):
Mhmm. So so I know, Chad, you have a question
you wanna ask, but I have to dipinto that if if what Liz just
said created some curiosity of,like, wait. What do you mean
tricked that I'm a human or nota human in a world where that's
actually a possibility? Youshould go listen to today's
(21:06):
episode of wake up with AI wherewe actually day?
Liz Moorhead (21:10):
It's because this will drop
George B. Thomas (21:12):
Oh, this is, this is 10:18, the morning of
10:18. Go listen to WakeUpAIwhere we talked about retinal
scanners for humans versus
Max Cohen (21:25):
bots. Anyway Okay. Nerd. Nerd. Nerd.
Nerd. Chat. Chat. Chat, you have
George B. Thomas (21:31):
a you have a question, brother. Nerd.
Chad Hohn (21:33):
Yeah. Well, I mean, I'm just you know, I was just
saying, like, imagine a worldlike, this is where my brain
went. Like, imagine a worldwhere you have, like, the
ability to have a full beans,like, here's a triage of
everything that we offer as a bto b or a b to c space, AI
interaction, and it's a page onyour site where when people are
(21:53):
trying to learn about yourbusiness and they don't really
wanna commit to talking tosomebody yet, but you have this
super sick resource where theycan interact with something
almost like they're on ameeting, but it's all AI, that
sucker spits out some sort of acustomer fit metric and then
goes back into your CRM. Andwhen they book a call, you
(22:16):
already know a lot about thatcustomer because of their
interactions with your reallyhelpful resource that tells them
who you are and what you do.And, honestly, it probably saves
your team time.
But the delivery mechanism is, Ithink, really awesome, like,
that Liz was talking about.Like, hey. We actually care
about you because when youschedule a meeting with us,
we're gonna talk to you with ahuman. But, like, we also have
(22:36):
this super dope thing where youcan tell we care about, like,
giving our humans forcemultipliers to their day and
allowing them to actually engageand, you know, be with you
present. Like, I mean, man, itit's funny.
At RBP, like, she she talksabout the human element. And and
at our company, Roofing BusinessPartner, we have, like, a sales
(22:58):
rep that, like, every time he'sfinally done and gets a guy
like, a salesperson, you know,across the finish line, like,
the the roofing company that hesold, like, the dude practically
wants to marry him. You know?Like, I mean, they just love
him. He's like a van lifer, andhe'll just talk to him for,
like, five hours on the phone,you know, and just, like hey.
He's awesome. I won't name him,but he has been on TV. So there
(23:20):
you go.
George B. Thomas (23:20):
Okay. There you go. So I'm only I'm gonna
throw down one more rule. Onerule as we move forward because
I don't want this to be the LizAI show.
Chad Hohn (23:27):
Right. Right.
George B. Thomas (23:28):
Any question that we ask moving forward can't
have anything to do with AI, buteverything to do with content.
Max Cohen (23:35):
Sure. I got one. Alright, Liz. I've been saying
this for a while, and I want youto tell me if I'm crazy or not.
Yes.
So oftentimes when I'd be havingconversation with customers,
even back when I was, like,onboarding. Right? There was all
the, you know, back then, it waslike, get them to blog, get them
to blog, get them to blog.Right? Because that was, like,
the lowest barrier of entry, Ithink, to content creation back
(23:56):
in the day.
Right? And I still, to anextent, maybe it is today too.
Right? But I, you know, a lot ofpeople would start to ask me
about video. And, obviously, asI started getting more into the
creating video for I hate sayingthe word b to b, but, you know,
TikTok ing about HubSpot era ofmy life, you know, and people
would ask me kind of, you know,how to get into it or why it's
(24:19):
important.
You know, the line that I wouldcommonly refer back to is, like,
we're in the age of where peoplelike to watch, not read. Right?
And is that maybe just because Idon't like reading, or is there
any merit to that, statement?What do you think?
Liz Moorhead (24:35):
Yes and no. So this this reminds me of the
conversation, Max, that we hadduring an episode a long time
ago about is blogging dead. Andthe thing that always frustrates
me the most is that we have thisvery binary approach to how we
think about content modalities.Right?
Chad Hohn (24:52):
Mhmm.
Liz Moorhead (24:52):
And I think mostly because for a long time, it was
so one dimensional.
It is a blog. There will be a CTA at the
bottom.
Congratulations. Inbound. Right? Like, that was
it. And then as we startedadding
Max Cohen (25:04):
Smack that ebook button. Sorry. I had to say it.
Bam.
Liz Moorhead (25:07):
Smash that like button. But as we started
introducing more modalities anddifferent types of content.
Right? Even different types ofwritten content, people get very
antsy and say, well, okay.Clearly, this is no longer
working anymore, and we'removing to this.
And very rare and we see thisnot just in the content spaces.
(25:28):
Marketers do this all the time.Oh, so we're not doing this
anymore. We're doing this now.It's no.
No. No. No, guys. This is a yesand. This is a both and.
This is a because. So, Max, Ithink for a lot of people, the
ability to democratizeeducational video, education by
visual learning has opened up alot of abilities for people who
(25:52):
just aren't voracious readers.Right?
Max Cohen (25:55):
Yep.
Liz Moorhead (25:55):
But let me let me get to my point here. Hold on
because I see you winding up.The thing, though, is that I see
a lot of people like, there'sstill people like me. Right?
Like, I really enjoy video.
I enjoy it a lot. But for thingsI'm really learning, I'm an
insane person who has a printerright here, and I have to print
it out and I have to highlightit. If there are things I really
need to learn exactly if thereare things I really need to
(26:17):
learn, I need to also havewritten stuff because I don't
always catch everything when I'mlistening to it. I don't always
understand things when I'mwatching it. But when I have a
chance to stop and stare andlook at something, to see the
words, I just learn better.
So what I think is we're seeingthe support of a diversity of
learning styles, but also insome industries, you may just
(26:39):
have greater visual learners.You may have people who are more
academic, so they may be moreheavily weighted there. This is
where I think it comes tounderstanding your audience. I
don't think you're wrong, Max,in saying what you said, because
I think for a lot of people,that's true. Thank god there's
video because I'm not listening.
For George, let's use acompletely different context.
How many books have you readthis year, George?
George B. Thomas (27:01):
Oh, don't
Liz Moorhead (27:02):
Because you listened to them.
Chad Hohn (27:04):
Yeah. Right.
George B. Thomas (27:06):
It's it's a lot.
Chad Hohn (27:08):
I have read a lot of books.
George B. Thomas (27:10):
It's a yeah.
Liz Moorhead (27:10):
Right. But here's the thing. I can't do audiobooks
because I won't pay attention.I'll stop listening. I'll zone
out.
So, again, this is where I'mkinda getting to the like, it's
a yes and max, and I'm nottrying to, like, backdoor my way
out of an answer. I this is whatI truly believe. I wish content
creators and businesses wouldstop saying, well, this is
now dead because we have a new thing.
(27:31):
Like, no. Diversify or understand your
audience and what theirpreferences are and wait it.
Sure.
George B. Thomas (27:38):
So Yeah. But I I I wanna throw this in there,
real quick because I havelearned something about myself,
not that this podcast is aboutme. But I have realized that if
I can listen to it and see it atthe same time, it's it's double,
if not triple the impact.
Liz Moorhead (27:53):
Magic. Magic.
George B. Thomas (27:54):
So to me, I'm like, I'm I'm getting to the
point where I think I wanna buythe audiobook and the physical
book so I can listen to it andlook at it while I'm listening
to it and then also mark up,like, the the book highlight and
all that. Because I've noticedwhen I use something like
natural reader to, like, read ablog article, I actually don't
just listen. I end up looking upand watching the words as it's,
(28:18):
like, highlighting it andtalking to me. And I'm like, oh,
wow. I I really I understandthat better than if I just
listened to it.
Chad Hohn (28:28):
Anyway Mhmm. Super attention at that point.
Max Cohen (28:30):
How we're listening listening to that keyboard right
now.
George B. Thomas (28:33):
Keys, girl. I'm just gonna throw that out
there.
Liz Moorhead (28:35):
But to make a note. Sorry about that, guys.
George B. Thomas (28:37):
Yeah. No worries. No worries. So who
wants I have a question, but whowants to go next? I'll wait and
then go after that.
Chad Hohn (28:43):
That you go. I mean, you haven't asked a question, I
think, in a while.
George B. Thomas (28:47):
So, Liz, actually, I have two I wanna
ask. I'll ask this one and if wecan fit the next one, and then
we'll get to it. Liz, I wannaask you what you have seen as
the most common silent killersof content programs, and how do
you identify and address thembefore it's too late?
Liz Moorhead (29:08):
This is where I put on my content therapist hat
and hold up a content doll andsay where in the doll does it
hurt, and then we go from there.Because it really is going to
depend on the organization. Sofor example, I look at I think
of it like symptoms. Right?Like, if somebody's telling me
it feels like we're reinventingthe wheel every time we're
creating content, that means youdon't have a documented process
(29:30):
with platforms that support theprocess with people who provide
governance, oversight,execution, and accountability.
Like, that that's what it saysright there. Like, one of the
biggest killers is you do notactually have content
infrastructure. You you you knowhow to write a blog article. You
have a content strategy. Youmaybe use Google Docs.
(29:53):
Maybe you use No. Guys, it is amachine. Like, you should be
putting in ideas and contentspits out. You should have
frameworks in place with anowner overseeing it who says,
hey, guys. Absolutely.
We'd love to do that, butthere's no room in our schedule
for that. So if we're saying yesto this, what are we saying no
to? When I was the editor inchief at Impact, I had a very
(30:15):
regimented ninety day cycle thatI ran for couple years where I
literally put, and these are BobRuffalo's three flex spots where
he could just blow up my lifeand ask for three things every
month. They don't roll over. Youcan't keep them like vacation
days, but they're there.
Right? So it's about, do youactually have a system? It
(30:39):
reminds me of the book atomichabits. Right? You know, you
don't fall to the level of yourhabits.
You fall
George B. Thomas (30:44):
to the
Chad Hohn (30:45):
level of
Liz Moorhead (30:45):
your systems. Hi, Max.
Max Cohen (30:48):
I know. I know.
Liz Moorhead (30:49):
So I would say that's one of the number one
that's number the one contentprogram killers. Another one is,
you're not actually committed tocontent. Like, this is a very
basic one. Mhmm. But, like, Iremember in the in a
conversation we recently had,George, with a client, you know,
I said, hey.
I'm actually not here to provideany judgment on what's
(31:09):
happening. I asked very fewquestions going into this audit
intentionally because I wantedto just go fresh and see what I
would find. And the symptoms I'mfinding here says to me, there
isn't really a content priority.So probably the reason why
you're seeing some challengeshere is, like, you like, I think
I'm seeing a symptom of wehaven't committed one way or the
other, and we feel guilty aboutnot having made that decision.
George B. Thomas (31:31):
Yeah.
Liz Moorhead (31:31):
And so often, like, it's just a lack of
commitment, and I see thatactually with no judgment. I'm
not sitting here
everybody should have a content program.
No. One of the other clients that George and I
work on together, and I'm therefor content, we don't have a
content strategy running forthem currently. We're doing
plenty of other stuff that isreally geared toward their
bottom line. We're doing tons ofsales enablement things. We're
(31:53):
doing a lot of website stuff.
Like, that's just not thepriority right now. So I think
sometimes what will happen isthat you will have organizations
who believe they should be doingcontent. So they start doing
content, but they don't they'renot bought in, and it's not buy
in. It's just like maybe it'sactually not right for them. So
they're kinda doing it 50% tosee if it'll work.
But if, again, if you don't putthe systems in place with the
(32:15):
owner and you actually commit todoing a strategy that is built
around your business, like, ifyou're not doing it and you're
doing it 50, it's always gonnahurt. So just have a
conversation internally. Noone's gonna judge you. Content
Santa isn't gonna put you on anaughty list. Like, just you're
either doing it or you're notdoing it.
And the other thing I will sayis that this is the greatest
(32:39):
content sin in Georgia. Ihaven't even told you this one.
Max Cohen (32:42):
Uh-oh.
Liz Moorhead (32:43):
I believe two things are true about great
content.
George B. Thomas (32:46):
I hope this is
Liz Moorhead (32:47):
It is selfless. No. It is selfless education,
and we need to stop pretendingwe're not in the business of
persuasion. Oh. We have had somuch blowback.
I don't like sales. I don't wanna talk to
sales. I don't wanna feel likeI'm persuading.
We're not here as, like, charity robots, guys
Max Cohen (33:06):
Yeah.
Liz Moorhead (33:06):
Just, like, doling out education. Do we have
conviction and firm beliefsabout what it is that we are
teaching and educating about? A%. Do we have a very specific
point of view that we arebringing out into the world and
for the right people, this isright for them? Absolutely.
The number one killer I see ofcontent is we've stopped trying
(33:27):
to make an argument. We stoppedtrying to have an opinion
because we're so afraid thatwe're gonna be seen as selling.
Make an argument. Like, George,you and I have been talking
about Aristotle's rhetoric, andI have been studying it.
George B. Thomas (33:40):
Yeah.
Liz Moorhead (33:41):
It's the art of persuasion.
Chad Hohn (33:43):
Yeah.
Liz Moorhead (33:43):
That is what rhetoric is, and it's ethos,
logos, and pathos.
George B. Thomas (33:48):
I love it.
Liz Moorhead (33:48):
Logos is your facts, what it is that you're
talking about, the way you'remaking the case. Your ethos is
actually not your values. Yeah.It's not your values. It's not
this.
Ethos actually is what what isyour authority to be reporting
on these facts? Empathos,emotional appeal. Mhmm. Are you
recognizing the human beings infront of you, and are you
(34:09):
showing up accordingly? Andempathy is a small fraction of
that.
We have to stop pretending we'renot in the business of
persuasion, guys. What that'slike I remember when I stood on
stage at Impact Live at 02/2019,and I put on a giant screen
behind me that says, I likecontent that makes money. And
people started laughing, andthey got uncomfortable. I'm
like, we need to stop pretendingthat we're here to what? We're
(34:31):
making them aware of our brandso they'll wanna go to lunch
with us?
No.
George B. Thomas (34:35):
I like lunch.
Liz Moorhead (34:35):
Want them money. I like sandwiches and lunch, but,
like, that's not what we're herefor.
George B. Thomas (34:39):
I don't know why we're smashing hugs and
lunch, on this podcast.
Liz Moorhead (34:44):
Maybe I just need a hug, and I'm cranky and
hungry.
But, yeah, those are my thoughts.
Max Cohen (34:48):
Yeah. Yep.
Liz Moorhead (34:50):
Those are my thoughts.
Chad Hohn (34:51):
That's good.
George B. Thomas (34:51):
Anybody else have a question? Because if not,
I got I got one more, but I wantyou guys to, like, have an
opportunity here with content.
Chad Hohn (34:59):
That whole thing talking about the strategy, I
was just was, like, so, youknow, captured by that last
little bit. I mean, it you know,because, like, I'm not, you
know, I'm I'm all on thetechnical side. Like, I don't
really do anything withwebsites. The the con my content
is, like, orchestrating astructure of a HubSpot portal
for somebody to use so that theylike to use it, so they wanna do
(35:20):
their job. So it's a forcemultiplier for the business.
Right? That's, like, my kind ofcontent. The guy like I make the
UI look good and work well anddo the things repeatably. Right?
That's, like, for me.
But I I would in in that vein, II guess my question for Liz is,
like, does the out of the boxHubSpot marketing hub, like,
(35:43):
calendar and tasking and all ofthat business, the like, does
that actually get the job done,or is it, like, is that a big
turd or what? You know? Like,what do you think?
Liz Moorhead (35:54):
I really hope I really hope no one from HubSpot
is listing.
Chad Hohn (35:58):
Because, like yeah.
Liz Moorhead (36:00):
Yeah.
Chad Hohn (36:00):
Because you don't use it. Uh-oh. Uh-oh. Because, like,
I look at it
Liz Moorhead (36:04):
I'm gonna ask you what it is.
Chad Hohn (36:05):
Admin, but I don't know the things. So I don't know
if, like I'm like, oh, yeah.This is where you do your
tasking, and here's where yourposts are scheduled, and here's
where your content. You guyscould work on it. You can have
mention each other.
You know? Or or is that notgonna cut it for them? Right?
Liz Moorhead (36:19):
Here yeah. So, here's my realistic and honest
answer. And I say this assomeone who sued.
George B. Thomas (36:26):
Just I will get sued. Ask. Don't get a sued.
Liz Moorhead (36:28):
I love HubSpot, and my answer is informed by two
very distinct use cases. I havebeen a content leader inside for
a for an in house company. So Iwas at a HubSpot Diamond Partner
agency that also had a massivemedia company side of the
business, and I exclusively ranour content. That included five
(36:51):
to 10 new articles a week, fourdifferent podcasts, videos, and
digital curriculum. Okay?
So not small stuff. I have alsobeen service side where I am
using HubSpot to develop, build,and execute content strategies.
I will tell you, I find most ofit to be window dressing. I
don't really find the SEOcontent strategy tool, for
(37:14):
example, to be terribly helpful.Mostly because I think, for
example, that tool in particularhas a bit of an identity crisis.
Is this here to help me track acampaign, or is it help here to
help me build a strategy? Andit's here to help me build a
strategy. You're doing so with alot of assumptions about, quite
frankly, the strategic know howof the person clicking the
buttons. Like, it's not reallybuilt for that. I also find the
(37:37):
content tracking in thecampaigns tool to be much more
effective.
I have used it sometimes if Ireally wanna track the growth of
a topic cluster overall. But forthe most part, that's just like
an extra step. Now, also, here'swhere we have to get into the
human side of the business.Right? So I work for
chuckleheads like George.
And I say chucklehead as a signof his Wow. I love you so much.
George B. Thomas (37:59):
Holy mackerel. Do we know
Max Cohen (38:01):
do you wanna know why they say
Chad Hohn (38:02):
I don't have my thing.
Liz Moorhead (38:04):
Do you wanna know why I say chuckleheads?
Max Cohen (38:06):
That rhymes.
Liz Moorhead (38:07):
Because every content manager who who rises up
in the ranks is going to dealwith type a executive folks who
need to know answers now. Theydo not want to click in to 18
different tabs of HubSpot and anavigation that is constantly
changing to understand wheresomething is or what's
(38:27):
happening. They are notinterested in that if they are
even inside the tool at all. Sothe way like, you have to come
up with a communication strategywith your leadership, with your
executive team. And I guaranteeyou, the moment you're making a
C suite executive click on theirown into somewhere in a HubSpot
portal to figure out wheresomething is, you've already
(38:50):
kinda lost the battle.
So often, I'm gonna be doing myproject management where my c
suite is going to be doing mostof their work. Because I need to
be able to do 80% of mycommunication with my c suite,
with my leadership. Whoever I'mreporting to as a content leader
within my organization wherethey don't have to proactively
(39:12):
ask me where something is orwhat they need to click. It
needs to be something native,quick, fast, and easy. Boom.
George B. Thomas (39:18):
Alright. So Here
Chad Hohn (39:20):
we go.
George B. Thomas (39:20):
Here here's what I'm gonna say to you.
Trouble. No. You're not introuble, and I don't disagree
with anything you said. Chad,let's get nerdy for a second.
Oh. And specifically to what Lizsaid. C suite
Max Cohen (39:34):
Mhmm.
George B. Thomas (39:34):
If doing it right, should be in HubSpot
because HubSpot is the all inone place for their team, sales,
marketing service. It should bethe home base for their
reporting. So Mhmm. They theyshould be in there. Here's the
thing.
If somebody at HubSpot islistening anybody in there?
Chad Hohn (39:53):
Oh, it's just Poor, poor Mike. Yeah. If
George B. Thomas (39:55):
if if anybody is listening, if we were to take
the projects tool and graduateit to what it could be And,
actually, like, there there is aworld where you could have,
like, a ClickUp, Asana,Teamworks inside of HubSpot.
Yes. They would just take thetime to code projects to be what
(40:18):
projects could be, but it's satthere for the last four or five
years Yeah. And not been changedor turned into anything. And so
could the content strategy toolsbecause by the way, Liz was
talking about the topic clustertool Right.
Right. Right. SEOrecommendations. Because by the
way, SEO recommendations arevery valuable and useful for you
(40:38):
as a HubSpot user and yourwebsite and making it good. But,
like so imagine a world whereit's topic cluster
Max Cohen (40:44):
Mhmm.
George B. Thomas (40:45):
Campaigns tool, SEO recommendations, and a
project management system forcontent around especially now
that you've got podcasts
Max Cohen (40:54):
Mhmm.
George B. Thomas (40:55):
In HubSpot. Right. So now you got podcasts,
case studies, articles. Yo, weneed a way to manage all of what
you're building over here. Socan somebody please catch up?
Max Cohen (41:06):
Mhmm.
Chad Hohn (41:07):
Anyway Well, I mean, on the marketing calendar,
you're supposed to be able to,like, add tasks and do a couple
things. Right? But, like Youcan. That seems like it's those
tasks aren't connected toprojects. Like, I remember being
an inbound.
I think it was, like, theHubSpot Academy timeline. Right?
And it's like, oh, yeah. In2019, we released HubSpot
projects, and it's like afootnote in history because it's
(41:29):
there. But, like okay.
Great.
George B. Thomas (41:32):
Yeah. The the fact that you have sales tasks,
marketing tasks, and projectsYeah. They're not the same
thing.
Max Cohen (41:41):
Yeah. Mhmm.
Chad Hohn (41:42):
Yeah. It's I mean, that goes back, I think, to some
of HubSpot architecture. Like,not every object is a first
class citizen object. Right?Yeah.
Yeah.
Liz Moorhead (41:50):
Well, I think the other reality is is that if we
think about and I'm thinkingabout the c suite folks who I
have worked with in differentorganizations. Right? Like,
George, getting you to useHubSpot in the way it's possibly
intended with the project'stool, I don't see that as a
problem for you. But that'sbecause HubSpot is in your DNA.
But if I think about businesseswhere HubSpot is not part of
(42:11):
their daily workflow, that'swhere I tend to run into
problems.
Because the moment I have to aska CEO to open up a different
tool that they will never useexcept for this, they're gonna
get cranky. Usually, what theywant is a link that is public
basing, that is a single sourceof truth that they could take a
look at at 3AM when they'rewondering where something is,
and I really don't want themtexting me. You know what I
(42:32):
mean? Like, it's stuff likethat. Or we had a client for a
long time where, like, they arejust more relationship focused
people.
He wanted to talk to me. Mhmm.He wanted to have conversations.
George B. Thomas (42:43):
On the phone.
Liz Moorhead (42:44):
Is where I I know. But this is where I would say
content managers this is thething I always teach when I do
content manager training isalways the first module. You are
a relationship manager first.That is what you are. If people
see you when you're coming downthe hallway virtual or otherwise
and they start running and theydon't wanna work with you, your
job is already done.
Your jewel your goal is tounderstand what people need from
(43:05):
you, and and I mean that in theneeds that they're not telling
you. You need to go out of yourway to become fluent in the
language style of theircommunication. Your job, yes, is
to get them to see the value ofthe content of your creating,
but, like, don't be the foodblogger who tells me 18,000
paragraphs about grandmother andthe meatballs before you
actually give me the meatballrecipe. I don't care. Don't make
(43:27):
people work that hard and thenbe upset when they don't get
what they do.
Like, what you do. Like, that'sjust the reality. Your goal is
to be a relationship manager.Uh-oh, Max.
George B. Thomas (43:37):
Max, what what do you think is now now, Max,
we're moving into the questionsthat can be answered in one
minute or less because we'requickly running out of time, but
what's on your brain?
Max Cohen (43:47):
No. I'm just about to have, like, a you guys mentioned
the projects tool, and I, youyou know how, like, there were
some tools that were just hiddenbehind, like, the global search
George B. Thomas (44:00):
for a while?
Max Cohen (44:00):
Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. I, I went in there to be like,
oh, where's the how do how doyou even get to that project's
tool anymore? Like, does it doesit still exist?
And, I stumbled upon, theknowledge base article about it.
And, I I didn't notice it untilright this very moment that
Uh-oh. This projects tool, whicharguably hasn't been touched
(44:26):
since I was onboarding customerswith it Yep. This glorified to
do list on your iPhone sitsright below the product updates
tab Yeah. In the main top right.
Chad Hohn (44:44):
Yeah.
Liz Moorhead (44:44):
Yeah.
Max Cohen (44:45):
Yet we're stuffing playbooks in the library tab? In
the menu? Who made thisdecision? Oh god. To put a whole
another episode.
To do this the
Liz Moorhead (45:01):
Oh my god. Next episode, Max Cohen airing of
grievances.
Max Cohen (45:06):
Right next to the HubSpot Academy link.
George B. Thomas (45:09):
Somebody call 911.
Max Cohen (45:11):
Put play books in the godforsaken library tab. Oh,
there's nothing behind me up,Max. And we're going to the guy.
To explode. I didn't even knowthat was sitting I didn't know
you could access this toolanymore.
Yet I god. I'm gonna shut upbefore I Do you know who you
(45:34):
remind
Liz Moorhead (45:35):
me of right now? You remind for my for my
chronically online TikTokers outthere, the guy who screams at
people to wash their rice,that's who you were just now.
Max Cohen (45:43):
Okay. I am just sorry. I'm,
George B. Thomas (45:47):
You need a minute, Brian?
Max Cohen (45:48):
I'm over I'm overcome with rage.
Chad Hohn (45:51):
I think I saw a beat
Max Cohen (45:52):
about to blow, man. Of all the decisions of all the
decisions that were made aboutHubSpot's navigation this past
year.
Liz Moorhead (46:00):
Yeah.
I'm just so glad you would've gotta be
Max Cohen (46:02):
for that. Objects to a sitting in the main nav, I'm
speechless.
Chad Hohn (46:08):
Well, not really.
Max Cohen (46:09):
You're the opposite you're the opposite of
speechless.
George B. Thomas (46:13):
I just I don't know if you know what that word
means, but
Liz Moorhead (46:16):
I'm just the opposite of that. Minutes later.
Max Cohen (46:18):
I'm so confused.
Chad Hohn (46:20):
Oh, it's ticklish. Yeah. That was great.
George B. Thomas (46:21):
Let's let's land the plane, Liz. What's the
one takeaway that you wannaleave people around content
before we get them back to theirregularly scheduled day?
Liz Moorhead (46:30):
And a lot of tools and a lot of things can become
distraction. They are very shinybells and whistles. There are
gonna be lots of new ways to tocreate content, to distribute
content, to ideate, to do all ofthose different things. But at
the end of the day, content isyour way of creating a
connection with the people, thehumans you are trying to help
(46:54):
with what it is that you do orsell better than anybody else.
You either care about helpinghumans or you don't, and you
can't fake that.
And what's going to happen isthat we are now finding greater
ways to have more shortcuts putin front of us. The companies
(47:14):
that actually give a thing aboutthe humans that they are
serving. Look. We can purse twothings can be true. We can admit
we're in the business ofpersuasion.
We can also be people who aregenuinely trying to help,
genuinely trying to be ofservice. And I think the
distinctions between thecompanies that are actually that
(47:36):
way and those who say they arethat way, it's going to become
much more abundantly clear.Content is all about the art and
artistry of what you never see.It is the iceberg that is only
strong because of the piece thatis under the water. There is art
to this.
(47:56):
There are tools now that we haveat our disposal to automate,
refine, and scale certain partsof our process, but you're still
an artist. Don't forget it.
George B. Thomas (48:07):
Okay. Hub Heroes, we've reached the end of
another episode. Will Lord Lackcontinue to loom over the
community, or will we be able todefeat him in the next episode
of the Hub Heroes podcast? Makesure you tune in and find out in
the next episode. Make sure youhead over to the hubheroes.com
to get the latest episodes andbecome part of the League of
(48:30):
Heroes.
FYI, if you're part of theLeague of Heroes, you'll get the
show notes right in your inbox,and they come with some hidden
power up potential as well. Makesure you share this podcast with
a friend. Leave a review if youlike what you're listening to,
and use the hashtag, hashtag hubeuros podcast on any of the
socials, and let us know whatstrategy conversation you'd like
(48:53):
to listen into next. Until nexttime, when we meet and combine
our forces, remember to be ahappy, helpful, humble human,
and, of course, always belooking for a way to be
someone's hero.
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