HubSpot AI Data Sources: Buyer Personas vs. ICPs, What's the Difference?

Episode Transcript

Intro (00:01):
Do you live in a world filled with corporate data? Are
you plagued by silo departments?Are your lackluster growth
strategies demolishing yourchances for success? Are you
held captive by the evil menace,Lord Lack, lack of time, lack of
strategy, and lack of the mostimportant and powerful tool in

(00:23):
your superhero tool belt,knowledge. Never fear, hub
heroes.
Get ready to don your cape andmask, move into action, and
become the hub hero yourorganization needs. Tune in each
week to join the league ofextraordinary inbound heroes as
we help you educate, educate,empower, and execute. Hub

(00:46):
heroes, it's time to unite andactivate your powers.

Liz Moorhead (00:54):
Do you

Intro (00:54):
live in a world filled with corporate data? Are you
plagued by siloed apartments?Are your lackluster growth
strategies demolishing yourchances for success? Are you
held captive by the evil menace,Lord Lack, lack of time, lack of
strategy, and lack of the mostimportant and powerful tool in

(01:16):
your superhero tool belt,knowledge. Never fear, hub
heroes.
Get ready to don your cape andmask, move into action, and
become the hub hero yourorganization needs. Tune in each
week to join the league ofextraordinary inbound heroes as
we help you educate, empower,and execute. Hub heroes, it's

(01:40):
time to unite and activate yourpowers.

Liz Moorhead (01:44):
Well, welcome back to another episode of Hub
heroes. Max, what's on yourmind, buddy?

Max Cohen (01:49):
Was it just me or was the base, like, blown out of
that intro for anybody else.

George B. Thomas (01:53):
It it

Chad Hohn (01:54):
might be That puppy was loud as the dickens. Yeah.

George B. Thomas (01:56):
The good thing is the the

Liz Moorhead (01:57):
I'm sorry. The dickens won't hear it. Hold on.
Hold on. A second.
Chad was as loud as what. It wasas loud as what?

George B. Thomas (02:03):
Davenport. Lot

Chad Hohn (02:04):
louder than you can shake a stick at.

George B. Thomas (02:06):
Can you shake a stick at noise? Wait.

Max Cohen (02:09):
No. The noise the noise can shake a stick.
Original.

Liz Moorhead (02:12):
I'm just gonna slide a Werther's original
slowly across the table to bothof you.

Chad Hohn (02:17):
If I pulled one out of my pocket, would you just,
like, be dead? I wish I had

Liz Moorhead (02:22):
I would be dead, but, also, can we talk about the
slander against Werther'sOriginals? They're actually
delicious.

George B. Thomas (02:27):
I love Werther's, but I am the old guy
of the podcast. So, anyway

Liz Moorhead (02:32):
Well, happy post Thanksgiving, everybody. How
y'all doing? How are youfeeling? What's the haps?

George B. Thomas (02:39):
Full of turkey still.

Max Cohen (02:40):
Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm still pretty much 76% gravy at
this point.

Chad Hohn (02:47):
It fills in all the crevices, doesn't it?

Max Cohen (02:49):
It really does. Yeah.

Liz Moorhead (02:50):
So it really ties through together.

Max Cohen (02:53):
It's just like, it's like, what's it called?

George B. Thomas (02:57):
Spackle?

Max Cohen (02:58):
No. What's the stuff that that fills food cells? No.
You know what I mean? Flex Seal.
It's like Flex Seal.

George B. Thomas (03:06):
I was throwing all of the things that I could
think of at at that,

Liz Moorhead (03:09):
but Duct tape. Duct

George B. Thomas (03:11):
tape. Staple. Gorilla glue.

Chad Hohn (03:13):
Drywall mud.

George B. Thomas (03:14):
So cheese out. So here's the funny thing. This
is the first year in a lot ofyears, that we didn't do
Thanksgiving dinner. Literally,the day before Thanksgiving, I
ran out to, Firehouse Subs, not,sponsored, but call us if if you
wanna be. I don't know why youwould, but we actually got

(03:37):
their, like, turkey stuffingcranberry sauce, like, sub and
stored them in the refrigeratorfor the next day because it was
just Noah and I, here chillingbecause everybody else was gone,
for the holidays.
They went to Ohio for a dogshow, so it was super quiet.
And,

Liz Moorhead (03:54):
Happy Yeah. Happy bachelor's giving.

George B. Thomas (03:56):
Oh my gosh. Just listen. I am officially
done with, fear of the walkingdead and Daryl Dixon and even
watched Gladiator two in thetheater with Noah. Okay. Not why
we're here.
It was it was an event

Liz Moorhead (04:08):
mine, though. So I ended up not having turkey this
year, but not intentionally.We're not gonna name names.
We're not gonna say anything outloud. What I will say is that
when I showed up to prep theturkey, I kept asking, is the
turkey ready?
Is the turkey ready? Like, hasit been defrosted? And then I
said, okay. So and so. Now it'stime for me to get that turkey

(04:29):
basted all ready to go in theoven.
She said, great. Goes to thefreezer, pulls out the tur

Chad Hohn (04:39):
Oh, yeah. We have a turkey.

Liz Moorhead (04:42):
We have turkey. And she and she just looked at
me, and I went, is this a isthis a joke? Is it a a rehaha?
Right? So we had, ThanksgivingHere.
Chick we had Thanksgivingchicken thighs, the most
aggressively seasoned bastedchicken thighs you could
possibly imagine in your entirelife. That's nice. And then

(05:03):
after that, I mean, as we canall clearly tell, I'm ready to
sing. I've I look and feel liketrash. But I capitalized on that
I capitalized on thatopportunity to finally start
many years later game ofthrones.

Max Cohen (05:16):
Wow.

Liz Moorhead (05:17):
It's finally happened. I've been sucked in.

George B. Thomas (05:19):
Oh, wow. Yeah. Next is Yellowstone then. After
game of thrones, you can go toYellowstone.

Liz Moorhead (05:24):
Well, if we're seeing my pace on when I
actually pick up shows that arepopular, talk to me in about
five years, and I'll be readyfor Yellowstone.

George B. Thomas (05:32):
Oh, my god. It's so good.

Liz Moorhead (05:34):
But Speaking of Yellowstone Yeah. I have no
segue guys.

George B. Thomas (05:39):
Heck of a segue. Yes. Who's their persona
and their ideal client profile?I don't know.

Liz Moorhead (05:44):
Who could it be? Is it Kevin Costner? We don't
know.

George B. Thomas (05:47):
No. No. Probably not anymore anymore.

Liz Moorhead (05:51):
So this bag of band of gravied people, we have
come together today to doanother installment in our
series on HubSpot AI datasources. Last week, we went
waiting into the deep end of mypool, brand voice and tone
without our water wings. Wesurvived. We lived to tell the
tale. But this week, we'retalking about the part of

(06:13):
HubSpot's AI data sources thatquite frankly, it's still
somehow content related, but I'mgonna be look I'm looking
forward mostly to hearing youguys nerd out today.
But the reason why I say this iscontent related is that the part
we're talking about actuallydigs into the first question. I
will ask any subject matterexpert in any company no matter
what they do or what they aretalking about when they sit down

(06:35):
for a content interview with me.And that's not what are we
talking about today. It's notwhy does this topic matter. It's
who are we targeting?
Who are we talking to? But hereis where this conversation gets
interesting. For as long asthere has been an inbound, there
have been buyer personas. Right?We have been beaten over the
head with buyer personas.

(06:56):
We have episodes upon episodesabout buyer personas, both
positive and negative. Wheneverwe've talked about who we're
talking to or who we'retargeting in the context of
HubSpotter inbound, It has beenabout personas. Except when you
fire up the HubSpot AI datasources settings, there is nary
a persona label to be found.Instead, you are going to find

(07:20):
something called an ICP, yourideal customer or client
profile. And, George, I see youalready pacing and chomping at
the bit.
Tell me why you're excited aboutthis conversation today.

George B. Thomas (07:30):
Well, I'm excited about this conversation
because it to me listen. One ofthe things that's frustrated me
for a long time is this idea ofb to b versus b to c versus,
like, human to human. And lasttime I checked, probably every
human works in some type oforganization. And so there's
there even for, like justlisten. Listen.

(07:54):
When we think about this, it allcomes down to the word of
context. And when you thinkabout what HubSpot's building,
the prospecting agent, one ofthe biggest context that they
need is ideal client profiles.Ideal client profiles, being
kind of coming, front andcenter, we'll call it, it it's

(08:14):
sort of new, but not new.Meaning, if you turned on
HubSpot's, like, targetaccounts, you would start to see
things around buying role andideal client profile. And
there's stuff in HubSpot Academythat talks about this.
But for today's conversation,when we're saying data sources
and ideal client profiles, andwe'll probably talk about, like,
the difference in best practicesand things like that maybe as we

(08:35):
go, What I want people tounderstand from a level of
context, ideal client, profilesare the what and where. Buyer
personas are the who and how.That's a great question.

Liz Moorhead (08:47):
Jumping ahead in our conversation, but I love
this.

George B. Thomas (08:50):
I'm just I'm saying this is you asked me why
I'm excited. So I'm excitedbecause listen. Whether it's
content, whether it's, social,whether it's prospecting,
whether whatever interaction,whatever activity you wanna call
it, the what, where, who, andhow, they're important.

Liz Moorhead (09:08):
Well, that is really setting the context
nicely for our conversationtoday because we wanna talk
about whether or not there is adifference between buyer
personas and ICPs because Idon't think a lot of people see
that clearly delineated. Andquite frankly, HubSpot, when
it's rolled out a lot ofchanges, which is has been doing
a ton of over the past year,some of this messaging is
getting lost. Some of thesecritical strategic conversations

(09:29):
aren't happening. And thatdeeply influences how well we do
or do not use these tools. Sothat's exactly what we're
talking about today, George, andI want you to stay on that mic
because your train of thought isexactly what I want us to pick
up with.
Because we're talking about whythis shift in language matters.
We're talking about we talkabout how do we use these
mindsets to customize the ICPsettings appropriately in your

(09:52):
HubSpot AI data sources to getthe most of your out of your new
AI superpower. So, George,again, I wanna come back to you.
We're seeing this shift inlanguage with HubSpot, and it's
very purposeful. And quitefrankly, it's not the only place
we're seeing them shift theirlanguage.
Right? It's a customer platform.We've heard Allbound get dripped

(10:12):
out. You've already startedtapping into the real difference
between buyer personas and ICPs,but could you simplify the
complex? When you say the whatand how versus the who and what?
Like, talk to me about that.What does that mean, and why are
we seeing the shift in the tool?

George B. Thomas (10:28):
Well, see and if I if I pull out my crystal
ball, which I actually don'thave, like, part of me has
really been entertaining thisidea of, like, is HubSpot not
even really gonna be a CRM?Like, again, you alluded to
customer platform. I I said acouple weeks ago or maybe last
week, are are is HubSpotbuilding the the world's

(10:51):
largest, assistant businessassistant, because of the AI?
And, again, we're having thisconversation because it is data
sources. It is data sources inthe AI settings tab.
And so when I think about this,Liz, again, it it goes down to
you know? Listen. For for idealclient profiles and and, again,

(11:13):
if if you go into HubSpot and ifyou go into settings and you go
into AI and you go into datasources and you click into the
ideal customer profile and youstart to build one, you're gonna
see that it's gonna be thingslike revenue potential,
firmographics, demographics,location, company size, age

(11:35):
range, which, by the way, agerange is interesting to me
because it's literally, like,the age range, not necessarily
of the company, but the humans,which hang on a second. If it's
Ideal Climate profile and it'syour company What was that word
you said?

Liz Moorhead (11:54):
What What was that word you said?

George B. Thomas (11:55):
Oh, I said, I said Humans. Right. So so so why
is the human ape so, like,already, if you start to think
about, like, those things, like,are they starting to tie in the
who with the, like, where?Right? The the ICP is already

(12:17):
starting to get a little pieceof maybe the potential buyer
persona inside of it.
And and so what's what'sinteresting to me here is you
should be able to say these arethe types of places that the
humans that I wanna serve, whichalso, if I go back to my b to b

(12:38):
versus b to c thing, does thistool become, something
different? Is and I don't liketo create new terms, but is
there a new term where this datasource, and its ideal customer
profile or ideal client profile,it's a it's a merging or mixing

(12:59):
of persona, roles, goals,challenges, demographics,
psychographics, and also acompany style if needed, job
titles, industry, locations,things like that. Because here's
the thing, there are b two bcompanies using HubSpot. There

(13:20):
are b two c companies usingHubSpot. And, the context that
each of them are going to needbased on what's in these data
sources for anything they'regonna do is gonna need a merge
of both.
Any anyway, I'm not exactly sureif I answered your question, but
that's where my brain goes basedon the question you asked me.

Chad Hohn (13:39):
Thanks for taking all the topics, George.

George B. Thomas (13:41):
Oh, yeah. I'm sorry.

Liz Moorhead (13:44):
No. Chad, what are your thoughts on this?

Chad Hohn (13:46):
I mean, yeah. So to me, I just look at ICP the and
it to me, it just seems likeit's all company except for age
range, you know?

Max Cohen (13:57):
About interests.

Chad Hohn (13:59):
Yeah. Interests is right. That is that is very
human. Yeah. So I mean, thosetwo, the last few are like, they
seem like an afterthought.
So like, my my thought is like,this is all stuff that Breeze AI
can go find or, you know,whatever. Right? And enrich your
data with with all that Clearbitgoodness that's out there. And

(14:22):
that's how it's gonna try andfind thing. But Clearbit was
originally, like, pretty companycentric, if I'm not mistaken.
Correct. Yep. And, you know,this, like, buyer personas very
much are about, like, the humansand, like, their temperaments
and all that kind of stuff. It'slike, I'm almost wondering if

(14:43):
this evolves someday to have adrop down at the top that's like
or or is configured differentlybased on your business. Right?
Where your business is like,hey, I work primarily b to c
with some b to b. I workprimarily b to b with no b to c.
Right? Stuff like that wherethen a little bit of the weight

(15:04):
of what it's really trying to,you know, use to either find or
configure its, you know, contentor however the AI works, I
think, would be different basedon those, you know, based on
those different type of peoplethat you're looking to find and
looking to, communicate with. I

Liz Moorhead (15:24):
Max, you've been suspiciously quiet. Hold on,
George. Because Max is, like,riding up on that mic, and I
need to understand what's goingon in that big noggin of yours.
Is it just gravy, or do we havesomething else going on?

Max Cohen (15:34):
Can I make sure I understand this thing first
before I say anything at all?Absolutely. So, you know, I I
honestly didn't even know thatthis was in the tool. Right? And
so I'm I'm I'm diving into itand kind of discovering it as we
go.
And I understand that this ismostly to be used in the blog
tool where you can select an ICPwhen you're generating a blog

(15:58):
post?

George B. Thomas (15:58):
So yes.

Max Cohen (15:59):
Or what else is it used for?

George B. Thomas (16:01):
The prospecting agent. I would say
any agent moving forward. I cansee where the social agent would
look at this context Mhmm. Ifyou were doing, like, b to b
social, posting. Definitely

Max Cohen (16:14):
the prospecting agent. The prospecting agent,
which is, you know, you know,ideally having conversations
with people over email, right,about stuff that's relevant

George B. Thomas (16:23):
to them. But then also the content, piece.
Yes.

Max Cohen (16:26):
Cool. I'm gonna say something controversial. I hate
this. It it's so so, like, ICPand persona is the same thing at
the end of the day. It's whoyou're trying to sell to, if,
like, we're being totallyhonest.
Right? And the the the stuffthat really, like, pissed me off
about, you know, personas backin the day is that, you know,

(16:49):
everyone was just like, oh,yeah, you know, what's their
level of education? Or what'stheir, you know, income level?
What's their typical job title?What's their this?
What's their that? And, youknow, to be honest, none of that
stuff in any sort of materialway really helps you write

(17:10):
content if you're not thinkingcritically about what have I
said a lot in the past Goals andchallenges. Right? If you look
at the old buyer persona tool,right, that one that is just for
whatever reason, for the pastten years has been hidden away
in the properties Right. Of thatone.

George B. Thomas (17:29):
Hit you.

Max Cohen (17:30):
It's that one little special property that for some
reason has this little, like,app built into it. Right? Mhmm.
Even that lets you write downwhat someone's goals and
challenges are. And when Icoached, you know, people
through this back when I wasdoing Marketing Hub
implementation, I said, listen,ignore literally everything in
the demographic section, right,and just focus on what the goals

(17:53):
and challenges are becauseultimately when someone searches
for something online, they'researching for ways to either get
closer to achieving a goal orovercoming a challenge that's in
the way.
If you think about any goodpiece of content, that's the one
true thing about all of them isthat it helps you do one or two
or both of those things. Right?And for HubSpot to build a tool

(18:17):
in 2024, that is one of themajor things is either to guide
the conversations an AI bot ishaving with someone where
they're trying to convincesomebody that they should, you
know, talk to us. Right? Or somesort of tool that helps you
write content that people shouldbe, you know, looking for.

(18:39):
Right? And and it should providethem value when they consume it.
This ideal customer profilething literally asks just
demographic information and thensays interests and other

Liz Moorhead (18:56):
Yeah. I have lots of problems with this.

Max Cohen (18:58):
There is nothing about goals and challenges. This
to me is a massive stepbackwards, and it almost kinda
tells me that, like, the peoplebuilding this just don't
understand the physics of whybuyer personas worked well.
Right? Well

George B. Thomas (19:16):
So so hang on a second.

Liz Moorhead (19:17):
Hold on. I really wanna jump in here.

George B. Thomas (19:19):
No. I I gotta jump in.

Liz Moorhead (19:20):
Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait.
Wait.

George B. Thomas (19:21):
Wait. Wait. Wait. We talked about the,
wanting them to not only haveideal client profiles, but also
to leverage the property thatyou just talked about and the
juiciness of the roles, goals,and challenges. And we even
talked about how I've beentraining personas way different
than you'll ever find on HubSpotAcademy based on what you just

(19:43):
said, roles, goals, andchallenges.
However, I have to rewind tothis place where you're like,
they're one and the same. No.They're they're not. They're not
one

Max Cohen (19:52):
and the same. Let's have this argument because
they're the same anyway. Likesorry. I you tell me how they're
exact tell me how they'redramatically different, then
I'll tell you how they end upbeing the same exactly. Go
ahead.

Liz Moorhead (20:03):
Yeah. So Please remember that I have a content
grievance that we need to comeback

George B. Thomas (20:07):
to here. Yeah. ICPs define the company. Buyer
personas define the individual.Like, they're they're they're
they're they're two totallydifferent things.
And, again, there's there'sdifferent again, you gotta
realize, Max, this is an AI tab.This isn't an AI tab for AI
tools that are the worst they'llever be, and then they're gonna
get better over time.

Max Cohen (20:27):
And I hope these conversations help you out.

George B. Thomas (20:29):
Of context when it's the companies Uh-huh.
To the context when it's thehumans. And when you can take
the context of the company andalso the context of the human.
This is why we literally beggedthe powers at HubSpot to be in
our last episode to, like,please put personas in this
freaking section two, or asection next to ideal customer

(20:53):
bios buyer personas because nowyou have double the context on
the conversations and theinformation and the education
that you want to provide.There's different inputs.
So there's gonna be differentoutputs based on both of these.
And and it should be built in away that they work together. But
if we say, oh, they're one andthe same, then we'll never get

(21:14):
to the point where we actuallyhave a system where they're
working together for thedifferent inputs and outputs in
the different context thatcreates the holistic
conversation that we're tryingto have.

Max Cohen (21:23):
But at the end of the day, this is information about
people you're selling to. Youdon't sell the companies. You
sell the people at companies.Right? And, also, companies
don't have interests.

George B. Thomas (21:33):
Yes.

Max Cohen (21:33):
They they you know what I mean? The companies don't
have job titles.

George B. Thomas (21:37):
Interest gets you over I know. What I'm saying
saying gonna talk

Max Cohen (21:39):
I agree with you.

Chad Hohn (21:40):
I agree with you.

George B. Thomas (21:41):
Hold on. If I sell event happily, I'm gonna
sell event happily different toa health care solution than I am
to a marketing agency, than I amto a freaking restaurant.

(22:01):
Different types of industries.I'm gonna talk to somebody who's
65 different than 25. I'm gonnatalk to somebody who makes a
million dollars that differentthan makes 50,000,000 because I
know I can sell more benefitsand features and add it.
What like, both of these arehuge for what we're gonna do

(22:22):
with an AI system movingforward.

Max Cohen (22:24):
I agree. But what about people who don't sell the
company? So they're just nevergonna use the ICP.

George B. Thomas (22:29):
That's why we're begging for the buyer
persona to be in there.

Max Cohen (22:31):
Alright. Yeah.

Liz Moorhead (22:32):
Right. But the other thing, though, like, Joel,
just take a look at the, holdon, if we take a look at the
ICPs that we've built, they'rehumans. It's a HubSpot
operations leader. It's a CMO.Like, we're talking about
individual people.
And this is where, like, I haveto I I feel like there are parts
of me that agree with you,George, but then there are parts
of me that seriously agree withMax. And we've seen this time

(22:53):
and again in terms of anythingthey have tried to build to help
either smooth out the issueswith content creation or make it
more human or do all thesethings. Like, the after I ask
who is asking a question about apiece of content, I say, why are
they asking this question inthis moment? How do they feel
about it?

Chad Hohn (23:11):
Mhmm.

Liz Moorhead (23:11):
And there's there is I don't know if there's,
like, a missing piece of thistool that could end up on a wish
list that allows us to reallyemotionally dial these things
in. But that to me is where I'mlike, I this is where is it a
communication issue where wehave another situation where
HubSpot did not message thischange properly, so we're
sitting here arguing about whyis this here, but buyer personas

(23:32):
isn't here. Like, it is a wildthing to me that ICPs are
suddenly showing up here. Buyerpersonas have been positioned as
the anchor, the inbound physicsnexus point around which
everything generates. And now wehave this.
And is it a human? Is it anorganization? It it could go
either way. Like, that's whereit gets a little bit confusing

(23:53):
for me of how I'm supposed to beusing these or how I'm supposed
to be contextualizing them.

Max Cohen (23:56):
There there's a piece of me that feels like they're
trying to get away from thestigma of, like, classic
inbound. Right? In that, like,they're trying to not use the
word buyer persona very, veryhard because for whatever
reason, there is this just Idon't know. I I see a lot of
people talking about how, like,oh, buyer personas are a thing
of the past that is all aboutyour, you know, whatever, and

(24:19):
then they show you somethingthat's, like, literally just a
buyer persona. Right?
You know, like, I I Like, what Ireally, really wish is that they
took buyer personas and theyturned it into, like, a real app
that did everything that itactually, like, needed to,
right, and put a heavy emphasison goals and challenges. Sure.
You can put some informationabout, like, you know, the

(24:42):
company stuff, and maybe thatwould talk to, like, the company
fit tool or something like thatwith, like, the new lead scoring
stuff. But to me, this justlike, this ideal customer
profile thing, like, it justbreeds a lot of confusion on,
like, what is this versus whatis the persona tool, and how do
they play together, and, like,all that stuff. I don't know.
It just seems like they'rethey're trying to use more

(25:02):
industry slang and industry, youknow, jargon and get away from,
like, what made inbound and, youknow, the HubSpot of old
special. Right? And to me, buyerpersonas, again, is just, like,
is one of those things that,like, no matter who you are, you
have one. Right? But it almostfeels like through what we're
building in the tool, we're kindof like not emphasizing the
importance of that anymore.
And I think it's like kind ofgoofy.

Chad Hohn (25:24):
And I think you're both right in a way or like
everybody here has a part of thewhat they're saying that's
right. Like when it really comesdown to it, if you're b two b,
you're selling to a humanworking at a company. Right? And
each different person in eachdifferent roles has different
goals and challenges. Right?
And so if you can build out boththe company object target, which

(25:48):
I think you're very much right,Max, in they're trying to get
away a little bit from some ofthe jargon surrounding inbound
because they want BreezeIntelligence to be able to go
find you some businesses. Right?And Yeah. You know, like,
without, like, while stilltrying to make it as helpful and

(26:08):
inbound y and content creation yas possible, And like, have the
parts of HubSpot that were good.I hope they don't forsake what
made HubSpot unique and whatbrought HubSpot to where it is.
Right. And I don't know if theywill, but like, at the end of
the day, like, well, now I cangive this AI brain, you know,

(26:28):
brain wallet here inside of myHubSpot, the types of businesses
that I really find that I sellwell. And then I can also give
it the types of people that workat those businesses that are
most likely to be an advocateand sell well. And if we can
merge those tools together for btwo b, I think that that's a big

(26:49):
benefit at the end of the day.Yeah.
Right?

Max Cohen (26:51):
And, like, George, to go back to, like, what you were
saying is, like, oh, I'm gonnasell something differently to a
$50,000,000 company than I wouldto, like, a, I don't know, like,
a million dollar a year company.I I agree with that. But to me,
that's not buyer personas pairedwith ICPs. That's just different
buyer personas because the goalsand challenges of someone with a
marketing manager job at a$50,000,000 company is gonna be

(27:14):
vastly different than the goalsand challenges of someone at a
million dollar company.

Liz Moorhead (27:18):
I love that. Would that differentiate me to that?

Max Cohen (27:20):
Rhyme. They might rhyme, but the goals and
challenges are gonna be muchmore unique. Like, they're
managing bigger teams and doingother stuff.

George B. Thomas (27:26):
But you wouldn't base a buyer persona on
the amount that the organization

Max Cohen (27:30):
is. So marketing

George B. Thomas (27:31):
Mary is where marketing Mary is at.

Max Cohen (27:34):
I don't think that's true.

Liz Moorhead (27:35):
I don't think

Max Cohen (27:36):
that's true. I don't think

Liz Moorhead (27:36):
that's true. I wouldn't I don't think that's
true at all. Like, an SMBmarketing Mary marketing manager
Mary is wildly different than anenterprise marketing manager
Mary because they're usually ina much more complex organization
with a lot more bureaucracy andred tape and a lot less
autonomy, and they're wearingfewer hats. They're usually
reporting to a director, who'sreporting to a VP, who's
reporting to an SVP, who'sreporting to a C suite.

Max Cohen (27:58):
Mhmm.

Liz Moorhead (27:59):
Like, that is that is an insane organization with a
wildly different decision makingthing. And they're also probably
a marketing manager, Mary,inside that enterprise is
probably with the nested withina specific product group. But
here's also where it getsinteresting as well is that and
this is where, like, even for megoals and challenges, and this
is me being the needy contentnerd. I could have two VP of

(28:19):
sales at the two same sizecompanies. If one is doing well,
they're gonna have a differentemotional response to a topic or
a piece of content that I'mgonna create versus one who is
scrambling at the end of theyear or the end of the quarter
and is worried heads are gonnaroll.
And so this is where I've thisis where I don't know if the
HubSpot gods are listening. Iwould love the ability, whether
it's just at a piece of contentlevel to say, this is how they

(28:42):
feel about this specific topic.Because sometimes, George, to
your point, the persona, the ICPdoesn't change. But what I am
hearing overall is we haveanother case of bad change
management when it comes torolling out big stuff in the
platform. To be fair, we areniching down into a setting
inside of a setting inside of asubheading setting.

(29:04):
So, like, I get it. This is notto knock them. But if we're
going to have language changes,we have no idea. We're guessing
as to why they put ICP versusbuyer persona. We are guessing,
and I don't love being in thatposition about something that
has been such a tentpole of theinbound methodology.

Max Cohen (29:21):
Yeah. Well, I mean, I know I get it's a setting well,
I was gonna say I get it. It's asetting within a setting. But,
like, if you really think about,you know, what this is meant to
do. Right?
Like, it's it's it's reallymeant to, like I mean or I guess
what the the potential here is.Right? I think this has the
potential to really help peoplewith, like, the hard stuff

(29:44):
outside of just crafting a blogpost. Right? Just think about it
for a second.
If you had, like, a fullyfleshed out, you know, buyer
persona in here where it's,like, here's, you know, yeah,
sure. This is this person's jobrole. Here's the industry they
work in. Because all that stuffdoes have an effect on what that
person's goals and challengesare, just like company size does
and things like that. Right?

(30:04):
Like, think about how this couldhelp you, like, put together
those more complex things thathas to do with, like, SEO and
content creation inside ofHubSpot, such as topic clusters
and the SEO tool. And, like, youknow, imagine if I could, like,
say, here's clearly all thedifferent goals and challenges
they have. Here's the extracontext you need about, like,
the type of industry or the typeof company they work in, the

(30:26):
roles that they generally have.And then imagine if it could
just, like, automaticallygenerate one of those, you know,
those those content spider webs,the the the topic clusters for
you. Right?
And go, cool. Here's your roadmap of content you need to go
create. Now let's go createthose individual pieces. And
since we have the broadercontext now of what that whole
sort of, like, pillar strategyor content strategy is gonna be

(30:49):
because we have that contextfrom the buyer persona, all of
that can then be informed to theindividual posts that it's
helping you write and structureand things like that. Right?
That would be sick, and it hasthe potential to do this. Right?
And maybe this is the first babystep. That's great. But, like,
the first baby step could haveat least included goals and
challenges, even if it's just atext field.

(31:09):
Right? Like, it feels a big stepback from personas, which had
that. Right? But then personashad no connectivity into any of
these, like, content creationtools that were

Liz Moorhead (31:17):
It's asking to create content with less
context, which I find weird witha new label with that wasn't
given as context. But, George, Iwanna come back to you here for
a moment because we can sit hereand debate all day long about
what was the intention behindthis, why are we seeing this
versus that, all of the Mhmm.The feelings we clearly have
about this topic. But, George,when you think about the the
users who are listening to thispodcast

Max Cohen (31:40):
Wait. The users? The users or the who? George hit us.

Liz Moorhead (31:44):
George.

Max Cohen (31:44):
Is it the users? List.

George B. Thomas (31:45):
I'm I'm sorry. I I didn't hear the rest of the
question.

Max Cohen (31:48):
Is it the users, or is it the The Oh,

Chad Hohn (31:53):
the

Max Cohen (31:54):
Oh, there it is. Sorry. Go ahead.

Liz Moorhead (31:56):
There wasn't the rest of the question because we
were waiting for you to do that.

George B. Thomas (31:59):
Gotcha.

Max Cohen (32:01):
Slow down. Thought that was a slow bounce layup I
gave you.

Liz Moorhead (32:04):
When we think about the humans who are
supposed to be using this, howcan they think about the purpose
of this tool now? How can theythink about what it is that they
are building? Take us throughthat purpose and those mindsets
that you want people to see herebecause we're we're not gonna be
able to answer all thesequestions about intent. We have
a tool in front of us that weneed to start using now.

George B. Thomas (32:26):
Yeah. And I'll go into what Max was saying.
Like, the amount of humans thatdon't even know this exists,
like, Max was like, I didn'teven know this existed. Hence
why we're talking about it onthe podcast. And that we need
people to go in and at leaststart putting information in
there and paying attention to itbecause as it grows over time,

(32:48):
my hopes is that it does all thethings that we're talking about,
and it adds all the things thatwe need.
Because at the end of the day,we have to remember that this is
as much automatic understanding,automated context as humanly
possible is what we wanna givethe mesh the machine because

(33:09):
that's what HubSpot is building.They are building an AI machine
right underneath everything thatwe knew and loved. And the fact
that Max is even going to, like,hey. Wouldn't it be great if
there was a day where I couldput this, this, and this and
select this and this? And itwould know.
And then all of a sudden, mytopic spider would come out, and

(33:29):
then I could be, like, write allthese blog articles. And then I
could hit remix, and we could doper remix all of these articles.
And, like, it's a little like,HubSpot seven step, process to
decimate your content creationprocess. But it would be because
somebody listened to thispodcast, realized there was

(33:50):
ideal customer profile, and allof the other things that we
talked about, in previousepisodes, and we'll talk about
future episodes, to fill in thegaps to give because, by the
way, you can also give itadditional context in the way
that you're, like, crafting theindividual prompts based on a

(34:10):
section or a paragraph usingBreeze Copilot. So, like, this
is the, how do we get the bestfoundational contextual
information so that we can get70 to 80% there and humanize it
and hone it on the other sidebefore hitting the publish

(34:31):
button?

Max Cohen (34:32):
Like Yeah.

George B. Thomas (34:33):
So just know it's there and start filling it
out and actually think aboutthis stuff.

Max Cohen (34:37):
Yeah. And I'd say, like yeah. I mean, there's
probably people just finding outabout this now like me, but,
like, George, how many people,like, still don't like, when you
start working with them, don'teven know, like, personas exist?
Yeah. Like, a ton.
I probably say most of them. Aton.

George B. Thomas (34:52):
A ton. Yeah. Like, here's the thing.
Literally, I I and, again, I'mnot shilling. But the amount of
super admins that take the superadmin training that when I talk
about personas and show them thepersona workshop video that we
have are like, oh my god.
Yeah. And these are superadmins.

Max Cohen (35:14):
Yeah.

Liz Moorhead (35:15):
Mhmm. Yeah.

Max Cohen (35:16):
And it's it's crazy because it's like it it's it's
by far one of the easiest andsimplest ways to say, hey, is my
content resonating with acertain audience or not? Right?
Because, like, you can literallyhave these people, like, self
self identify. Right? But, youknow, I I and and it was going
back to your question on, like,how could people use this today.

(35:37):
I mean, if this is informing howyour blog content is getting
written, I mean, I can only hopeand pray that it's taking that
interests and other fields,like, into consideration. And so
I'd say if you wanna try to usethis today and experiment with
it, you know, go write up awhole bunch of goals and
challenges in two differentsections and drop it into that

(35:59):
other field and just, like, youknow, hope and pray that it's
actually gonna use that and takethat into consideration. Right?

Liz Moorhead (36:04):
I mean,

George B. Thomas (36:04):
to be fair, though remember, this is part of
the puzzle because last week, wetalked about brand voice and how
much that has changed and howthere's all sorts of Mhmm.
Context as far as some of thosepieces as well. So, like Mhmm.
And and, Liz, I'll let you go.The one thing I did wanna say,
and I'm curious.
And if you work at Hub Spot, youcan email me or call me. I swear

(36:25):
I won't release it on theInternet. But if if this
confusion of this conversationwe're having today is because
you decided to call it ideal bythe way, it used to be if you go
look on the Internet, it's idealclient profiles and buyer
personas. So HubSpot if you'rethe human that called it ideal

(36:45):
customer profile because youthought it would align with the
customer platform, that's wheremy curiosity is getting the best
of me. Like, is that why wenamed it that?
And and it should have had beentwo things instead of one thing.
Anyway, I'll shut up, Liz.

Liz Moorhead (36:59):
No. I think the big thing for me and it because
ahead of this episode and quitefrankly, the last one, I talked
to some friends of mine who havebeen in my niche specialty role
in different organizations andalso agencies. And I asked a
simple question, will you evergenerate a blog post from
scratch within the HubSpot tool?And they said, I don't even know
how that would work because noneof us have processes where

(37:21):
content creation begins insidethe tool. It begins with
conversations.
It begins with an interview. Itbegins with something else. So
this is where it gets reallyfascinating where I sometimes
see a friction between what theplatform is enabling people to
do versus what is actually thebest practice when it comes to

(37:44):
whether it's content creation orany strategic any sort of
strategy asset building. Youknow, it is this like, the idea
that somebody can, in a vacuum,by themselves, go into HubSpot
and generate a blog post wherethey pull in brand voice and
they pull in this person andthey have a topic, the SME is

(38:06):
never gonna be the person doingthat. They're too busy that it's
gonna be a content person.
Hopefully, they have somebackground on what great
storytelling looks like.Hopefully, they know how to
weave it in so it's actuallyhuman and and and empowering and
educational and all of thesethings that we want them to be,
particularly at a time wherewe've talked about this. We're
entering an uncanny value ofcontent where buyers are gonna

(38:27):
feel something is wrong withyour content, and they're not
only gonna dislike it, they'regoing to not trust it. They're
going to get the ick. That iswhat is happening.
And so that this is not a a wayfor me to open up another
content debate, but it is thisweird thing where I'm seeing
things enabled where it's like,is this actually the process or
best practice we want to besupporting?

George B. Thomas (38:49):
And and what I wanna be careful of is for it
not to always turn into acontent because, by the way,
everybody knows I love me somecontent. But it it can't always
turn into a contentconversation. Like, this, for
sure, needs to this one inparticular, for sure, needs to
lean into the fact of, like, andsome of you have access to it,
some of you don't. It's beta.But when when the prospecting

(39:14):
agent is rolled out at a largerscale, this is really, really
important.
And you have

Liz Moorhead (39:20):
to out of that,

George B. Thomas (39:21):
George. Different.

Liz Moorhead (39:23):
Yeah. Yeah. Because so I think this is a
really good don't. I think it isreally easy for us to get
obsessed about the content pieceof it. Mhmm.
And a big don't is not to putblinders on and think that's its
only purpose. So can you talk tous a little bit about that idea?
Like, let's take it let's take astep back out. Right? Of course,
I'm always gonna be in thecontent end of the pool.
George, look at me. We know howbroken I am.

George B. Thomas (39:44):
Listen. I no. Anyway, I listen. I turn on
target accounts. I, as a human,then either have to manually put
in the target accounts that Ialready know that I'm supposed
to be going after, but it maybeI'm trying to find other target
accounts.
And so, like like, that's humantime spent searching for these.
If I have ideal client profilesor ideal customer profiles, and

(40:08):
now AI is trained to go throughall the companies and find ones
that would align with these andthen allow me to put a button
push a button on an AI generatedlist of, like, target accounts
that I wanna target, it justsaved me a metric butt ton of
time. If now when I go to enrolla sequence and it's using
templates and it's actuallycreating the templates based on,

(40:31):
the ideal customer or idealclient profile, now it knows
that it's talking to, an owner,a CEO, a COO, like c suite
versus a mid level manager or anemployee because, again, you can
even age. Like, depending on howyou build these ideal customer
profiles and how many of themyou build and how much more of

(40:54):
personas, roles, goals,challenges could be applied to
this. By the way, if you work onthis tool, make Max happy after
other or before other.
Just put roles, goals, andchallenges. He'd probably be
quiet about the whole thing, andhe'd be like, this is the best
tool ever.

Max Cohen (41:06):
But That would be paced. Yeah. Just to

George B. Thomas (41:09):
hear. The thing. Here's the thing. Like,
now so think of like that. Whereis it taking away manual tasks?
Where is it then able to createmicro content, emails, things
like that Mhmm. To where, whereand especially when you go to
this, like, semiautonomous orcompletely autonomous, the
context to be able to, like thisis why we're not talking about

(41:33):
it this week. This is why ICPsattached with, the actual
products in the data sources isso freaking important because
when you start to prospect, ifyou know the who, ideal customer
profile, and the what, theproducts, and you have the
context to actually get the jobdone or at least augment the job

(41:55):
that a human is trying

Chad Hohn (41:56):
to do. Which just sends them into a meeting with a
lot of really importantinformation without them having
to go dig through notes and havethe right properties on the left
hand sidebar, but also on thecompany. And I know, like,
things are better now with,like, cross object association
tables for admins to configurestuff like that. But it's still

(42:17):
not, like, that amazing to reada bunch of properties in the
middle tab on a company or on acontact. You know, like, it's it
when also activities are reallyimportant and going through that
activity timeline of what mostrecently occurred in that
company or with that human.
So, yeah, I mean, like, beingable to really have that

(42:37):
context, I think this goes intothe meeting prep tool as well.
This all, I think, will feedinto the meeting prep AI. You'll
be able to have some really, Ithink, great frequently used
prompts that you'll be able tosave. Another thing that'd be
amazing that I'd love to seesomeday is the ability to
utilize snippets inside ofCopilot. Right?

(42:58):
So be able to pump pump pump asnippet in of a good prompt
that, you know, you don't right.And so you could just build
things in with snippets and, youknow, make it really easy for
your team, I think that's justlike a no brainer right there.

George B. Thomas (43:12):
Yo. Yo. I'm just gonna throw this out.
Snippets as a prompt holder

Chad Hohn (43:17):
Yeah.

George B. Thomas (43:17):
Would be Exactly. Super dope
functionality. But but I but Ithe the point I'm trying to
paint because by the way, you'reyou're almost alluding to the
end of the story, Chad. It'slike, imagine a world where I
set these things up in datasources, in AI data sources,
because I know that HubSpot'snow building the world's largest
business agent that happens tojust hold information in his

(43:40):
brain called a CRM. Mhmm.
But I and I now know that it cantake me through a thing of where
it helps me select all my targetaccounts. It helps me prospect
all the target accounts. I'mgetting ready to write an email
or go into a meeting, and I goto the contact or I go to the
company and I say with withCopilot, summarize this human.

(44:02):
Summarize this human. Summarizethis company.
What what some now all of asudden, in an instant, it's
helped me save time along theway, and it helps me save time
before I get on that call orwrite that email because it's I
can extract the context that Ineed based on the context that I
gave it for the foundational

Chad Hohn (44:23):
pieces. Yeah. But you know what it kinda does, at
least so far still, is justisn't really very useful for b
to c. Like, it just isn't ashelpful for, like, the at least
the industry that I'm buildingHubSpots for, like, homeowners
who own a house that has adamaged roof. Right?
Or, you know, is looking for areplacement or whatever. Right?

(44:43):
So just like home services,like, that's a huge, huge, huge
segment of the market with justhomegrown. I couldn't find
anything. So I hired somedevelopers and built a custom
thing that worked for me.
And now I'm trying to make itwork for other people, garbage
CRMs, you know, that are thatare not enterprise that will

(45:05):
never take these businessesbeyond the size of, you know, a
few million without a lot ofpain and manual effort to
integrate it into their othersystems. Right? So it's like, I
would love to see a little bitmore love for the b two c
because, man, the home servicesmarket wants stuff built on top
of stuff like HubSpot that'slike, to the nth degree

(45:28):
configurable. Right?

Max Cohen (45:29):
Wait. So you're saying ICP is not relevant to
that?

Chad Hohn (45:32):
I mean, ICP is, but it's like, I just feel like that
there's so many companyproperties and Clearbit True.
Enriches all this company levelstuff that it's like, if I was
a, you know, one of thosepeople, I'd be like, yeah. Like,
most all of this except for,like, age and interest is not
relevant to the people that I'mlooking for because I'm not

(45:55):
looking for businesses.

George B. Thomas (45:56):
So, basically, what I hear you saying is we
need a clear bit, but for Humandata. Yeah. Which gets freaky
real quick. Yeah. Exactly.
Although you're almost creatingyour, like, first party data
with HubSpot and some type ofprocess that where you can get
that information, but, like, inenriching it automatically gets

(46:17):
well, that just to me, it getsscary and dangerous.

Chad Hohn (46:19):
But Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It does.
I mean, like, there's a lot ofprivacy stuff there. But I think
if HubSpot has the tools toallow you to build things to
survey people. Right? And, like,hey, are you in the market for
whatever? And, like, peoplefreely give up their information
all the time.
Unfortunately, like, peoplearen't that privacy minded. And,

(46:42):
so they're, like, put stuff intoFacebook all the time. I mean,
you ever seen those poststhat's, like, asking about, oh,
your first car and, like, allthis stuff, you know, and people
just answer all these questions,which are basically just, like,
do FA security questions to getinto bank accounts. You know?
People are crazy.
But, anyway Humans will

Liz Moorhead (47:02):
George, humans will human. So, George, are
there any other common mistakesyou could foresee folks making
that are critical to avoid whenwe're looking at this part of
the AI data source of settings?

George B. Thomas (47:13):
I mean, there's two big ones. One, the
biggest one is, not knowing it'sthere and not using it. Like,
again

Chad Hohn (47:20):
Mhmm.

George B. Thomas (47:21):
There's no harm, no foul to put the
information in there. But thatleads me to my second thing is
don't just put random ish inthere.

Chad Hohn (47:29):
Mhmm.

George B. Thomas (47:29):
Be because with any AI system, like, if we
if we're using Claude, if we'reusing GPT, we're paying
attention to the input thatwe're giving it because we know
it will dramatically affect theoutput that we get. Make sure
that you're actually doing someresearch, some understanding,

(47:50):
some reading. This is not a copyand paste simple copy paste.
You're done. Now, can you use AIto help you with this if you
have data and information toanyway, different conversation,
different

Chad Hohn (48:04):
Mhmm.

George B. Thomas (48:04):
Training, whatever. But, like, pay
attention to what you're puttingin there as far as the ideal,
customer profiles. And untilHubSpot does merge, fix, add,
whatever they're gonna do withbuyer personas, make sure you
find a place in your system thatyou're bringing that information
in along for the ride as you'recreating the content. That's

(48:26):
that's all I'll say. Or creatingthe processes or educating your
internal team on how you'regonna use the platform based on
this input.

Liz Moorhead (48:36):
Chad, you've dropped a question in in our
chat, and I'm kinda like, but,Chad, my guy, you should say the
quiet part out loud. You shouldask that whole last question.

Chad Hohn (48:45):
Yeah. Yeah. I was, I was thinking, George, like, as
you're talking, could it causemore harm than help in the
future anyway, if you put thewrong stuff in there? Like, if
you're just gonna, you know, putsome mission there, did you just
ignore it if you don't have atleast ten minutes to put
something coherent in there? Youknow?

George B. Thomas (49:05):
That's a that's actually a great
question. I would rather havenothing in there than ish in
there. And that pains me to saythat because it's the root of a
bigger problem. If you're inbusiness for any length of time
and you haven't figured out whoyou're selling to, who you're
creating content

(49:25):
for,
there's a larger strategy problem that you
call some I don't even care ifit's me. Call somebody because
dang gone.

Liz Moorhead (49:36):
So I know this could open up a whole other can
of worms, but I'm very curious,George. When you built yours,
did you build your ICPs asbeing, like, a mirror of your
buyer personas? Like, did youstart by saying, how do I
translate my buyer personas intoICPs, or did you start from
scratch? What was that process?Because I could imagine if I'm
sitting here listening to this,we've had a debate about the

(49:57):
fact that they're different butrelated and codependent.
But am I just supposed to sitdown and, like, make up whole
new ones that look differentfrom my buyer personas, or
should there be some reflectionthere?

George B. Thomas (50:07):
I think there's definitely reflection.
And it's it's like understandingas an organization what are the
problems you solve. Here are theproblems I solve.

Max Cohen (50:15):
I was saying it's more than and then what you
solve for. It's the other thingsthat people are looking for that
you do solve something for.Right? So it's I think that I
mean, and you could agree withthis. Right?
Back when people were reallyjust getting familiar with the
idea of inbound, all they wantedto do was write about the
problem that their productsolved. Right? But the people
who really got it said, well,sure. Our product solves for a

(50:39):
specific thing. Right?
But what we're trying to do withinbound is attract people who
will have that problem, and wehave to know that there is more
than just that one problem thatthey're searching for. So one
way to get in front of thosepeople is to write content about
stuff that we know that they'reinterested in looking up and
goals that they're trying tosolve for, even if our product
doesn't directly solve for thatthemselves. You get the right

(51:02):
kind of eyeballs on our sitewhen those people are looking
for stuff that isn't necessarilyjust the thing we solve for.
Right? The classic example thatI love to use is, like, when you
look at HubSpot back before ithad any sort of integration with
Instagram, we still createdcontent for marketers because
we're trying to sell tomarketers.
We would create content abouthow to market yourself on

(51:22):
Instagram, even though our tooldid nothing, right, to to to
help you do anything onInstagram. Right? So, you know,
there's more than just talkingabout what your product solves
for. Right? It's talking aboutother stuff that your buyer
persona is interested in even ifyour product doesn't have a hand
in directly solving it.
Right? But I think you wouldagree with that. Yeah.

George B. Thomas (51:43):
Yes. And I'm not talking about creating
content right now.

Max Cohen (51:47):
Oh, I thought

George B. Thomas (51:47):
you were. Talking about how do I create my
ideal customer profiles insidethe data sources. So if I was to
go in the line of you'rethinking, yeah, Max, I would
teach them about they ask, youanswer. And if I wanted to go
the next level, I'd teach themabout drafting off of other
content. That's not what I'mtalking about.
I'm talking about I need to takezero to something with ideal

(52:11):
customer profiles. I'm gonnastart with what are the problems
I help solve? What are theproducts that I actually have to
solve those problems? And whatare the types of organizations
that have those problems? Andthen I can say, okay.
Let's look at the data that Ihave or let's look at grab some

(52:32):
data from somewhere and help meunderstand the organizations
that have these problems thatare in need of these products.
What do they look like? Who'sthe buyer? And by the way, AI is
great at giving you a lot ofthis information that which then
you can hone. And I'll give youa little secret sauce.
One of the things, Liz, when Istarted to focus on the problems

(52:56):
and the products and, like, theorganizations and what they
might look like is I literallystarted to see these patterns. I
said, this is freaking dope. AndI took a screenshot of the
HubSpot Ideal customer profile,and I said, based on our
research so far, give me therelevant information to fill in
these fields for these seventypes of people or five types of

(53:18):
people that or organizationsbefore Max loses his freaking
mind and it blows out, like,both sides of his ears.
Organizations and humans so thatI can fill in this information.
And, again, it was based on theinput that I gave it.
It was based on the questionsthat I gave it. It was based on
knowing the platform that I wasputting it in for and why I was

(53:39):
putting it in for it. And so Iworked hand in hand with another
assistant to create a firmfoundation for this HubSpot
assistance, content creation,prospecting agent, because I
know how important context is toall the future conversations
we're gonna have on all thetools that we're using. It's the

(54:00):
biggest place that I thinkpeople are gonna just flub it
up. It's not under not beingcurious enough to be creative
enough to give the context totake him to the future.

Liz Moorhead (54:11):
And, George, if folks only remember one thing
from this episode, what shouldit be and why?

Max Cohen (54:15):
Goals and goals are really important.

George B. Thomas (54:18):
Hey. That's not it. That's not it. Whatever
that was.

Liz Moorhead (54:23):
Wow.

George B. Thomas (54:25):
I gotta boil this down to one thing?

Liz Moorhead (54:28):
One thing.

George B. Thomas (54:30):
If if you I'll say I'll say this. If you're
sitting here listening to thisand you go into that ideal
customer profile section andit's empty, and you because I
think you landed into somethingvery interesting, Chad. It's
like, I don't I don't have that,and I don't know how

(54:50):
to get there. Mhmm.
Then that's your next step. The one thing I
would say is figure out how tounderstand the organizations,
the humans, the hurdles, theproblems, the the products
enough in a way that you can atleast start to build a
foundation of these. Because,again, we're gonna move on to

(55:11):
another thing where we'retalking about products, and how
do you put that in there andwhy. And so just focus on
getting the strategy down andgetting this filled out, these
filled out.

Liz Moorhead (55:20):
I love it. Wow, guys. We didn't have any
opinions about this topicwhatsoever. Can you guys try
harder next time?

Max Cohen (55:26):
Yeah. Can we

Chad Hohn (55:27):
go to the therapy session, please?

George B. Thomas (55:33):
Okay, Hub Heroes. We've reached the end of
another episode. Will Lord Lackcontinue to loom over the
community, or will we be able todefeat him in the next episode
of the Hub Heroes podcast? Makesure you tune in and find out in
the next episode. Make sure youhead over to the hubheroes.com
to get the latest episodes andbecome part of the League of

(55:56):
Heroes.
FYI, if you're part of theLeague of Heroes, you'll get the
show notes right in your inbox,and they come with some hidden
power up potential as well. Makesure you share this podcast with
a friend. Leave a review if youlike what you're listening to,
and use the hashtag, hashtag hubeuros podcast on any of the
socials, and let us know whatstrategy conversation you'd like

(56:18):
to listen into next. Until nexttime, when we meet and combine
our forces, remember to be ahappy, helpful, humble human,
and, of course, always belooking for a way to