January 30, 2025 • 46 mins
The episode dives into the profound layers of Kendrick Lamar's To Pimp a Butterfly, exploring themes of authenticity, cultural identity, and social commentary. The conversation provides listeners with insights into how Kendrick’s art resonates on both personal and societal levels, emphasizing the transformative power of music in reflecting and shaping humanity.
• Exploring Kendrick's authenticity versus performance
• The intricate melding of music genres in his work
• Discussion of social commentary in the album
• The impact of "Alright" as an anthem for social justice
• Personal reflections on the journey of becoming through music
• The importance of storytelling in Kendrick’s artistry
• Cultural significance of Kendrick's narratives in hip-hop
• Encouragement for listeners to engage meaningfully with art
***disclaimer: this episode was recorded before the release of "GNX"
About the Guest:
Amisho "Sho" Baraka is a self-described polymath. He has spent the last 17 years traveling the world as a recording artist, consultant, speaker and writer. Whether he is operating as a curator of culture or as a creative problem-solver, Sho is wisely discerning the times while attempting to bring restoration and redemption. Sho and his wife Patreece also act as ambassadors and advocates in the Autism community.
Follows us on the socials or just one social for now: @thehumanpoppodcast
It's Pop for Human Sake!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
LaToya Tucciarone (00:01):
Hi everyone, I'm LaToya Tucciarone and this
is the Human Pop Podcast.
It's pop for humans' sake, andtoday I'm going to be talking to
my buddy, Sho Baraka, and we'regoing to be breaking down
Kendrick Lamar's album To Pimp aButterfly.
It's going to be a beautifultime.
(00:22):
Thanks for joining us, joe.
Thanks for coming on.
it's so good to have you hereexciting long time friend bro
yes, long time it's been a whilesince we've seen each other,
but oh but we have been friendsfor you get to that point where
(00:46):
you want to forget how long it'sbeen.
Sho Baraka (00:48):
I know right, right, right, right, because it's like
I don't want to show how old Iam oh, that is true, it's been
that long folks it's been thatlong absolutely so thanks again
for coming on the show.
LaToya Tucciarone (00:56):
Why don't you tell the folks a tell me about
yourself.
Sho Baraka (01:01):
I just the easiest way to describe me is a polymath
, I'm a polymath so a person whodoes multiple things, but I
think for the purposes of thisparticular podcast I am an
artist, and a hip-hop artist.
That's how most people came toknow me, but through my hip-hop
I guess you can say life.
(01:21):
It afforded me the opportunityto be a professor and to teach
about race politics, hip hop, soI think that that helps inform
a lot about why I'm here.
I guess you could say the nexusof my musical kind of life and
academic life.
LaToya Tucciarone (01:36):
Yeah, I think like you are like the perfect
example of the breadth and widthof the artist life.
You know that you never have tobe like defined by one thing
that one thing speaks to anotherspeaks to another.
You know we did another showwhere a friend talked about like
hermeneutics and how that easehas even taught him about film.
(01:58):
You know and how all of thesethings kind of layer you know,
cause sometimes people can belike oh, I'm an artist, I'm a
painter, painter, that's what Iam.
But how our art can lead usinto other yeah genres I think
you know I will say this.
Sho Baraka (02:12):
I do stand on the shoulders of artists before me
and I think you know individualslike Q-tip, individuals like
Questlove Bun B, who have hadwonderful careers in the
industry but have transitionedinto some of your academic
spaces, some people who are likecurators for museums or et
(02:32):
cetera.
So it's great to see thatthey've done it.
LaToya Tucciarone (02:36):
And.
Sho Baraka (02:36):
I had aspirations of being that person before them,
but it was just an affirmationlike oh, now I know that I can
do it.
And I think it's more commonfor individuals to see that they
can expand themselves outsideof not only just hip hop, but
also outside of creative workand vocation.
So that's some of my aspirationis not only just to do it, but
(02:59):
to be an inspiration for otherpeople.
LaToya Tucciarone (03:01):
I love it.
I'm actually going to put a pinin that because actually
there's something.
I want to circle back on that alittle bit later.
But tell me about pop culture.
So you have been a lover of popculture.
That's one of the reasons why Iasked you to be on the show.
You're very knowledgeable aboutpop culture, but when did you
(03:21):
kind of when do you feel likeyou first got exposed to pop
culture?
What has pop culture meant toyou and your development as an
artist, in a person?
Sho Baraka (03:32):
um, I think exposure to pop culture is like exposure
to whiteness in this countryyou don't really have a choice.
No, I just I know youappreciate that, um, unless
you're a fundamentalistChristian.
LaToya Tucciarone (03:46):
And then you.
Sho Baraka (03:50):
It was kept from you , but not the whiteness, but the
pop culture.
So for me, I think I came outthe womb.
I remember some of my earliestmemories.
This is no joke.
Some of my earliest memories ofbeing reared as a child had to
do with either film or music.
I one of my earliest memories.
(04:10):
I remember being in a theaterwatching Purple Rain.
LaToya Tucciarone (04:15):
So first of all, right, you shouldn't be
watching Purple Rain as a childand I was.
Sho Baraka (04:22):
That was the 80s, so I'm pretty sure I was no older
than like five, six or seven atthe time.
LaToya Tucciarone (04:26):
Right, right right.
Sho Baraka (04:27):
And as I go back and I watch films like that, I'm
like what in the world are myparents thinking, why was I
there?
Also, you got to understand hiphop was coming into a place of
pop culture.
It was before, it was kind oflike a niche thing, but now it's
being played on radio.
And so I have two olderbrothers, but my oldest brother
(04:47):
six years older than me.
You know you have someone who'ssix years older than you.
They're going to be formativein how you know your identity,
cultivating your identitycultivation.
And so Run DMC, fat Boys, allthe LL Cool J, salt and Pepper,
like he was playing thoserecords or cassettes.
And so I'm like a young boy,like what is this?
(05:11):
This sounds much different fromwhat than Prince and Al Jarreau
, whoever else is.
My parents are listening toStevie Wonder and so that's
stuck.
And so yeah, and move films aswell yep uh, well, I already
mentioned uh, but hip-hop films,like some of you listeners, you
(05:33):
wild style, uh, breaking,breaking, um, what's the one I'm
um, what is the one that I'mmissing right now?
So, anyway, crush groove wasanother one.
So yeah, those are films that Iwatched as a young child and I
was like this is, for somereason, this is me.
LaToya Tucciarone (05:52):
Right, this is something that I identify
with.
You could completely identifywith it, so that was pop culture
.
Sho Baraka (05:57):
That was when I fell in love and kind of identified
myself as a consumer of it, ifyou will, without knowing I was
an actual consumer.
LaToya Tucciarone (06:04):
And then obviously it greatly influenced
you enough to say I want to bean artist.
Yeah, so how that?
Sho Baraka (06:11):
kind of happened was .
It was actually I didn't reallythink that I wanted to rap, but
my parents introduced me tolots of poetry, yes, so through,
like the Harlem Renaissance,through Amiri Baraka or
different people.
I would find this like desireto write poetry.
And then, not until I got tohigh school, did I realize that
(06:34):
girls like rappers more thanthey like poets.
I was like, oh, let me do thispivot and do this hip-hop thing
yeah.
LaToya Tucciarone (06:41):
You nerds who are doing these poems.
Sho Baraka (06:45):
So yeah, that's how I got into hip hop.
It was much later.
LaToya Tucciarone (06:49):
I was more of a storyteller.
Sho Baraka (06:50):
I love writing.
I wanted to be a novelist, astoryteller and a poet.
LaToya Tucciarone (06:55):
Wow.
Sho Baraka (06:58):
And so it's funny how those people who may know me
, it's funny how I kind of putthat in the back burner and now
I'm returning to the I was aboutto say it's like a full, full
circle, absolutely moment.
LaToya Tucciarone (07:09):
You just had to get those girls first.
Sho Baraka (07:10):
I had to get that girl, that girl one girl.
LaToya Tucciarone (07:13):
I'll put you in very, very clear, and then
you return back to yourself.
Then I return back to my as anartist, absolutely and I love
that because it's not like, butyou're still making music.
Sho Baraka (07:26):
Absolutely.
LaToya Tucciarone (07:27):
So again, those things are not two
separate things.
Sho Baraka (07:30):
Yeah, I think it's.
They build on each other.
They all come from the samefamily tree.
Right, right, right they'rejust one large stump of
storytelling.
LaToya Tucciarone (07:40):
Yeah.
Sho Baraka (07:40):
And storytelling, you have these branches Right
and yeah.
And storytelling, you havethese branches Right and yeah.
LaToya Tucciarone (07:44):
I think that's one of the things I love
the most about culture popculture, art is the storytelling
aspect, and you can tell astory from a moment, from a
sculpture.
You can tell a story Earliertoday talking to somebody about
Monet's haystacks and this manpainted 26 different versions of
(08:08):
a haystack and you're like whatin the world?
But the emotions and what youfeel from that, and he is
telling a story.
He's telling a story of light,of time, of moments.
So it's just so beautiful howall of these different arts can
tell a story.
And speaking of stories, youhave chosen to come on the show
and to talk about Kendrick Lamar.
Sho Baraka (08:29):
The greatest hip hop artist.
Oh second greatest hip hopartist of all time, after myself
Of course, of course.
No, yeah, Kendrick Lamar, Ihave great appreciation in the
whole greatest thing, and I wasjust being but yeah, he's
definitely one of them.
LaToya Tucciarone (08:44):
Well, some do consider him to be Absolutely,
I would say he's.
Sho Baraka (08:46):
I mean, he's one of my favorite.
LaToya Tucciarone (08:48):
Right right.
Sho Baraka (08:49):
I think he is, uh, just phenomenal.
It's just.
It's kind of hard to to explain.
Here's the thing I don't wantto do during this interview.
LaToya Tucciarone (08:59):
Okay, okay, and I find a lot of academics do
this, yeah.
Sho Baraka (09:03):
And I'm not saying that I'm an academic,
necessarily but I find that whenpeople try to um, give language
and critique and commentary toalbums, they put their own
thoughts, yes, and I think it'sgood for art to do like art
allows us to do that, like youknow great interpretation of a
particular scene, of an image,as you were talking about with.
(09:26):
Monet, it's easy for us to say,oh no, this is what it means,
right, but I also find that wedo that exceptionally poorly, or
?
well within hip-hop artists, weattribute things right to what
they're saying.
So what I'll say is what Ithink.
Yes, is to me what I think hewas probably communicating, but
I don't want to say for certain.
(09:46):
But he is an individual whogives a lot of opportunity for
exploration and interpretation.
He is probably one of the bestat that, very similar to
singer-songwriters of the past,your Dylans, your Lennonsens,
your people who were veryesoteric.
(10:07):
and hip-hop, in a sense, likesto think of itself being
esoteric, but I think a lot ofit isn't right quite as it is
kind of straightforward it is,and it I think it is for the
artist.
LaToya Tucciarone (10:19):
It's pretty straightforward for them, but I
think that they realize thatwhen you perhaps put your art
out there, it becomes esoteric.
Sho Baraka (10:29):
Yes, and I think that's one of his greatest
attributes and simultaneouslyone of his greatest probably
handicaps and the reason why heprobably is not a bigger pop
artist or pop star, because hegives himself up to the process
and the art more than thinkingof like what can I make that
(10:53):
will get this particularbillboard or this particular?
LaToya Tucciarone (10:56):
commercial spot Right.
Sho Baraka (10:57):
So anyway, yeah, there's there's always a
negotiation you have to make asan artist, and I think he is
probably the pinnacle of what ofan example.
He is, the the paragon, if youwill, of how to do how to be an
artist, yeah, but also how to bepop culture right yeah right,
but what do you think it is?
LaToya Tucciarone (11:18):
before we get into the specifics of the album
, what do you think it is thatallows him to blend those two
worlds?
Because not everybody can dothat right.
I mean, there are so manypeople who either swing to one
side of the paradigm or theother.
Either they are like I am anartiste and nobody understands
what they're doing and it'sunrelatable and they can't
(11:38):
connect, or they're just popmusic and they're talking about
nothing you know.
So what do you think about?
Kendrick kind of allows him toblend those two worlds together.
Sho Baraka (11:52):
This is where I'm definitely going to give it a
little bit of my personal like.
LaToya Tucciarone (11:54):
Yes, please.
Sho Baraka (11:56):
Assessment or thoughts Cause, I don't.
LaToya Tucciarone (11:58):
All of this is our personal assessment.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sho Baraka (12:00):
Well, there's some things I can communicate, like I
definitively know this, becausehe said this right so I don't
know if he's not said this, butI think it has a little bit to
do.
Well, in general, let me startin general, generalizing it.
I think of uh malcolmgladwell's much debated outliers
, right you think about howpeople get to a particular place
.
It's never necessarily just offof their merit right.
(12:23):
There are a lot ofcircumstances that are
surrounding that individual thathelps perpetuate them to a
particular place, and I think heis a product of that, like he's
a product of West Coast musicthat is very pop culture in a
sense, like listen to grow uplistening to NWA, snoop Tupac.
LaToya Tucciarone (12:44):
Right, tupac Right.
Sho Baraka (12:44):
Even if those people weren't necessarily as popular
as he is now.
LaToya Tucciarone (12:48):
Right.
Sho Baraka (12:49):
They were the epitome of kind of like what a
mass amount of people inCalifornia and elsewhere Well
they defined Right West Coast.
They defined a genre within hiphop yeah A genre within a genre
, and he's the product of that,so he grew up in a time that was
really important.
LaToya Tucciarone (13:07):
Right.
Sho Baraka (13:08):
Also what you'll notice in this particular album.
To get into the weeds of it,you'll listen to a song like
Wesley's Revenge, or Is that theright name of?
LaToya Tucciarone (13:21):
it Wesley's Theory.
Wesley's Theory.
Sho Baraka (13:24):
Wesley's Theory and King Kunta, and you'll hear jazz
elements.
Yeah, or you'll hear certainkind of like stylings that are
more is more of like theunderground West Coast hip hop,
which is like groups likeFreestyle, Fellowship, AC Alone,
(13:46):
Project, Blow and what that isis.
LaToya Tucciarone (13:50):
you wouldn't know those names unless you were
deep, deep, deep in West.
Sho Baraka (13:52):
Coast Not only just hip hop, but West Coast hip hop,
and so they were like theweirdos of like, with all
respect.
Because I love like, so I grewup during the same time so they
were like the undergroundweirdos of West Coast hip.
Respect, right, because I lovelike, so I grew up during the
same time so they were like theunderground, underground weirdos
of West Coast hip hop.
Wow, and so Kendrick had thebenefit of like having this
weirdo West Coast influence andalso like this gangster popular
(14:18):
kind of West Coast influence.
LaToya Tucciarone (14:20):
Right.
Sho Baraka (14:20):
And that's the reason why he raps the way he
does.
LaToya Tucciarone (14:23):
Right.
Sho Baraka (14:23):
Like the cadences and the cause that's more of
like the Freestyle Fellowship,the more AC alone kind of the
jazz elements that they had, butthen kind of like being
grounded and granted, I'm notsaying that these folks don't
ground, but being grounded insocial commentary comes from the
NWA's, the Snoops and also youalso got to understand, like
(14:43):
being in Compton, being fromCompton.
LaToya Tucciarone (14:44):
Commentary comes from the NWA's.
Sho Baraka (14:44):
The Snoop's and also .
You also got to understand likebeing in Compton, being from
Compton.
LaToya Tucciarone (14:50):
Right.
Sho Baraka (14:51):
In some ways geography matters in hip hop.
Yep, Like you have two artists,one artist coming from, you
know, Compton and another artistcoming from.
LaToya Tucciarone (15:01):
Canada.
No, I said it.
I said what I said.
I was born in Canada.
I was born in Canada.
I was born from Canada.
No, I said it.
I said I was born in Canada.
I was born in Canada.
So I won't tolerate thedisrespect.
I was born in Canada, that'sright.
Sho Baraka (15:14):
You didn't stay very long, so anyway uh, let's just
say Fayetteville Cause, that'swhere we are right now so.
Fayetteville uh, georgia versussomeone who's coming from
Compton off rip.
Georgia versus someone who'scoming from Compton Off rip.
There's a privilege in somesenses not financial or class
prep, but there's a socialprivilege to say hey, I come
from Compton.
We are going to perk our earsto the person who's coming from
(15:35):
Compton more than the person whosays I'm from.
LaToya Tucciarone (15:37):
Fayetteville and they're like what?
Sit your ass down when Right.
Sho Baraka (15:40):
We don't want to hear from you.
You know what I'm saying, right?
We don't want to hear from youRight, and so in that sense
there's a benefit from that, notonly because we're more willing
to listen, but because of someof the things that are happening
in his society, Right, and theattention that is drawn to those
areas, you know, fromcelebrities, from people,
whatever, right.
So there in there comes.
(16:00):
This cultivation I think isquite important for an artist
like him there comes.
LaToya Tucciarone (16:05):
This cultivation, I think is quite
important for an artist like him.
It's so fascinating because, Imean, I think he would say some
of the same that the, the placehe grew up, made him the person
that he is, and I think thatthis album really, I mean
definitely dives into hisjourney with that.
You know, I think one of theways that he was and I'd love to
get your opinion on this theway that he was kind of able to
bridge those two worlds to youis really one word, to me it's
(16:27):
authenticity, right.
Sho Baraka (16:29):
Absolutely.
LaToya Tucciarone (16:30):
It's just bleeding from every word on this
album and I think thatauthenticity is just contagious.
It's just something that wereact to.
You can sense it.
There's not always words aroundit, but you were like, okay,
this person has lived this and Ithink that that's what made
(16:52):
Tupac, you know, so popular.
But yet there was but you stillhad more of, I think there was
more of a pop element to thoseWest Coast artists that you were
talking to, more so than evenKendrick, and I think he kind of
brought this often, thisrawness and authenticity,
(17:13):
because even Snoop it's polished.
Sho Baraka (17:16):
Yeah, so here's where I will push back just a
little bit on Tupac.
LaToya Tucciarone (17:19):
I hear exactly what you're saying I
agree.
He's a bit polished as well,would you say.
Sho Baraka (17:25):
I wouldn't even say polished is the right term.
What I would say is that yousay authenticity.
I would probably use ajuxtaposition to authenticity or
just a word in opposition tothat, and say the reason why I
think we also love Kendrick isbecause it doesn't come off as
performance Right.
LaToya Tucciarone (17:44):
It comes off as performance Right.
Sho Baraka (17:45):
It comes off as genuine Right and so.
But I will say pop came off asperformance because, although he
okay, let me say this, Cause Iknow people are going to- let me
, let me say, let me to somepeople we knew, pop knew when
the lights were on.
Right, like he knew, like thisis an opportunity although the
(18:09):
message was genuine and maybeeven knowing who his mom was,
who his aunt was, and knowingwhere he came from, he went to a
performing arts school.
He wasn't necessarily from theWest Coast.
He moved from the East to theWest.
He was a background dancer.
He knew the things that hemoved from the east to the west.
He was a backup, a backgrounddancer.
He knew the things that heneeded to do in order to get to
(18:29):
a particular place.
Like most of pox friends willsay, like he wasn't really a
gangster he was like a greatdude.
He's a philosopher right he's asmart dude.
He was an activator rightkendrick is none of the kendrick
is just a regular kid fromCompton who probably doesn't
want to be bothered and he justwants to make really good art
(18:51):
and he's like there's noperformance in him to that
degree where you feel like he isinauthentically trying to gain
something, if that makes senseand just to all those folks
listening.
What I'm not saying is Pop wasnot genuine.
LaToya Tucciarone (19:07):
What I'm saying is like he used his
performance.
Sho Baraka (19:09):
Yes, in a way that gave him.
LaToya Tucciarone (19:12):
I would say would you say so?
Where that came to me is, Ithink T-Pack was more cultivated
, if that makes yeah, absolutelyso.
Sho Baraka (19:20):
I grew up.
So how about this?
I grew up in a.
My mom was a Black Panther sovery similar to Pop.
I was cultivated to almost bean activist.
Right I was handed.
I was handed books.
I was given the autobiographyof Malcolm X in junior high to
read.
So in some senses there was anexpectation for me to fight the
(19:42):
power.
LaToya Tucciarone (19:42):
When I was young.
Sho Baraka (19:44):
And so that does something to you when you get to
college.
I went to Tuskegee University.
LaToya Tucciarone (19:48):
That wasn't because I really really, really,
really, really wanted to go toTuskegee.
Sho Baraka (19:51):
It was because part I was like yeah, I do really
want to go to HBCU.
There are no HBCUs on the WestCoast for those people, so
growing up in California,watching school days and
different world.
I'm like well, this is thetrajectory for me, and so there
is a cultivation and in someways, we carry those
expectations of other people onyou and you're like well, this
(20:14):
is what I need to do in order tobe that person.
I don't think Kendrick feelsthat.
LaToya Tucciarone (20:19):
Or he.
I think he was just cultivatedby something different.
Yes, absolutely I think he wascultivated by the streets, his
environment.
It's him wrestling with thatcultivation as he kind of enters
(20:43):
into a new space and time as asigned recording artist who's
now making money as anindividual who probably never,
actually wanted that life yeahknew there was something like.
Sho Baraka (20:53):
Knew he?
I imagine kendrick to be likeif he didn't grow up in that
space, if he he grew up inFayetteville he would be the
nerd who really wanted to justwrite poetry, maybe rap but was
probably reading, you know, ToniMorrison.
I don't know what you can hearand to go to a different album
(21:13):
of his and Good Kid, Mad City,the Art of Peer Pressure
Basically what he's just sayingis like I'm the homies but I
don't really want to do thisyeah, yeah, yeah.
I felt that, as a young like, Ifelt that not to like insert
myself into, like kendrick storyno I grew up in southern
california around gangs, myoldest brother was, like I said
to someone on influence, he wasin part of the street life right
(21:36):
and so that fell on me a lotright but I knew I was like yo,
I really want to play dungeons,dragons, right, right and so.
But you know what, my homiesout here, we smoking weed, we
doing this, that's what you doget it the more you're around it
, yeah, the more it becomes apart of you right, right so even
there are things and what?
some of kendrick's lyrics,especially within some of the
(21:58):
later stuff.
Oh, you're like, I don't lovethe perpetuation of violence and
some of the stuff that he's.
You know the way he talks about, but I also understand.
LaToya Tucciarone (22:07):
That's just a past, of who you are, of where
you come from, and trying toreconcile that past with who you
(22:28):
are now and and kind of likewho you want to be and I think.
I think what I really lovedabout it is how raw his
communication is.
Like you know, when we talkabout that polish, not polish,
that kind of cultivate, I justfeel like he does not care.
You know like he's like, thisis the way I talk, this is the
(22:50):
way I communicate, and it'sfunny we can talk about this a
little bit because both of youand I are Christians and so you
would not grow up thinking let'slisten to, I mean, this
profanity-laced thing.
But I was telling my husband,andrew, that I feel, like
Kendrick's, so authentic that tocuss is not a bad word.
Sho Baraka (23:14):
It's appropriate.
LaToya Tucciarone (23:14):
Yes, it's a language, it is, it's literally
simply the language that hespeaks and uh, shameless plug in
chapter six of my book.
Sho Baraka (23:25):
He saw that it was good.
LaToya Tucciarone (23:27):
I addressed this very thing yes and I used
kindred as a reference yes, thewire as a reference to also
which uh next time next, but oneof the things I say is that I
stole it from Richard Pryor.
Sho Baraka (23:38):
This may be profane, but it's also profound.
Wow, yes, boom, so sometimeslanguage is necessary to
communicate the truth of a thing.
LaToya Tucciarone (23:48):
One hundred percent, and I feel like he just
does not hold back on this.
Let's take a break and hearfrom our sponsor.
Let's take a break and hearfrom our sponsor.
So I can tell that this albumhas been very meaningful to you.
Why is it personally meaningful?
Sho Baraka (24:10):
to you.
This is a dope album.
That's number one.
We ain't even got to get toodeep into it, right, right.
LaToya Tucciarone (24:16):
If you have not listened to this album.
People like for real and wehave it here on vinyl.
Beautiful, but it's meant to be, would you say.
It's meant to be listenedthrough, like if you can sit
down it has to be listened to.
Sho Baraka (24:31):
Yes, like all the way through, at least the first
time you listen?
To it and then the second timeyou'll be like, oh, you listen
to it, listen to it.
And then the second time you'llbe like, oh my gosh, when you
come to a revelation at the end,and then you'll want to go back
and listen to it again and thenafter that listen as you please
, right it's kind of like asystematic theology or a
biblical theology, but you wantto read through it and then,
(24:53):
once you read through it, thenyou can come back and okay, this
chapter is helpful, right Ilove this.
I love this album mainly becauseit's a really good album.
Yeah, and I just like artistswho you could tell put thought
and effort into a project somuch like don't you, don't you
like.
I would even say this I likebad stuff that just has good
(25:16):
thought and effort into it.
LaToya Tucciarone (25:17):
It's like, as long as I feel like you put a
lot of time into it Right right,right right.
It's purposeful, exactly it'slike.
Sho Baraka (25:24):
I'll give you a chance because I'm like at least
you put a lot of effort intothis.
LaToya Tucciarone (25:29):
You know what I mean, right.
Sho Baraka (25:30):
So that's one reason .
The second reason why I lovethis album is I love the
musicality.
Yes, as an artist myself, Ilove jazz.
Yep, well, I've grown to beginmy love and appreciation for
jazz.
I don't want to make it seemlike I'm out here.
And so over the past, you know,maybe close to 10 years now
(25:53):
I've grown to appreciate, likejazz, and I think what jazz has
helped me do is help me become abetter writer.
It's helped me become a betterartist.
And when I hear, when I listento this music and I hear, like
Terrence Martin and and all ofhis, you know music, his his
contribution to it.
I just love the sound of thisalbum.
LaToya Tucciarone (26:14):
Yeah.
Sho Baraka (26:15):
I think Kendrick is a wonderful writer.
Yeah, he's also a greatstoryteller.
Um, I think the third reasonwhy I love it is the social
commentary around it.
Yeah, yeah, things he talksabout and the way he talks about
him, right like he doesn't you?
You talked about authenticity.
The one thing I would also sayabout kendrick is he's
self-aware very there's nothingworse than an artist who is
(26:38):
absolutely sure about themselvesand they are off about what
they view themselves, as I thinkhe's very aware, and that's one
of the things that I think gavehim a victory over Drake Drake
is not self-aware.
Although I love Drake, drake isalso one of my top five artists
as well.
But I think the thing thatDrake doesn't Drake doesn't
(26:59):
understand culture the way thatKendrick understands culture.
No, I'm joking so I think hisself-awareness and even in songs
like the Black of the Berry isan example of that where he
talks about.
You know how else can I say whydid I weep when Trayvon Martin
was in the street?
When gangbanging makes me killa nigga, blackening me hypocrite
(27:20):
?
You know?
LaToya Tucciarone (27:21):
what I'm saying, and that's the end of
the song and we out.
Sho Baraka (27:27):
So I think it's just stuff like that, that, I think
well, also to speak about thesocial commentary.
LaToya Tucciarone (27:33):
I think it's very easy to give social
commentary from like up hereright like looking down, you
know, or to even give socialcommentary from.
I used to live this way.
I've stepped out of it.
Now I'm talking about it fromthis other place, but I feel
like.
Sho Baraka (27:51):
Or the Wikipedia version of social.
You didn't Google somethingreal quick, Right, right right
and be like oh, I understand it.
Let me talk about it now.
LaToya Tucciarone (27:58):
You know.
But I feel like he kind ofweaves in not just a social
commentary of where he grew upin the system, but of himself
and himself in the system, andthose two things are so like
woven together and he's notafraid to go there with himself.
He's not afraid to go therewith himself, so it's not just
(28:19):
about let me talk about allthese external problems and you
know the police and theinstitutions, and I'm going to
talk about those too.
But there's also my ownwrestling, my own, you know,
sense of broken self-worth, myown temptation, you know, when
you talk about Lucy being, youknow, it's Lucifer and his own
(28:44):
kind of wrestling with thosethings.
That, I just think, brings thisum deep humanity back to his
work as well, absolutely, and Ithink it's the.
Sho Baraka (28:55):
You know it's not a both sides-ism, but the way that
he addresses he's, I think it'sthe.
You know it's not a both sidesism, but the way that he
addresses he's, I think he's.
He's what's the word I'mlooking for.
He is, um, he's wise andunderstanding in some ways,
understanding how to address aproblem.
It's very simple.
It makes me think of, likeJesus, when he approaches the,
(29:19):
the situation where the woman isabout to be stoned by the
religious leaders.
He addresses the system, headdresses the people behind the
system, but he also looks at thewoman and says, hey, sis go and
sin no more.
We could be out here you knowholding, and so Kendrick does
that.
He talks about policing, hetalks about, but he also, he
also was like well, gangviolence is an issue too, y'all
(29:39):
right, but he also understands,like the institutions perpetuate
this kind of way so so, yeah,so I love that about him and the
there's I forget what number itis.
This may be for the other reasonis I love as I go back, kind of
to regress back to earlier inthis conversation I love the.
The backpacker is a, you know,the backpacker, social conscious
(30:00):
aspect of him and the popculture kind of yeah gangster
rap like he's.
He's done a wonderful job ofmarrying that as yeah as an
artist, and so the fact that youcan go from a song like king
kunta all right to a song likeBlack of the Berry or Complexion
(30:20):
and you feel like all of theall of me who I am at Show
Baraka is being satisfied onthis album, like I'm getting the
rappity rap but I'm alsogetting the very pop
culturalicious you know, jam out, yeah, exactly so um which I
think that song itself needs awhole episode right right, but
(30:45):
that's um.
I'm wondering if there's otherreasons why I love zone.
I'm sure there are, but thoseare I feel like there's some.
LaToya Tucciarone (30:50):
You know, there's only some similarities
between the two of y'all andyour story, oh yeah.
Sho Baraka (30:56):
And then you've got the religious elements, I think
the motifs, the religious motifsthroughout the album as well.
LaToya Tucciarone (31:00):
Yeah, I think he hits it all.
I think he hits, you know, ourphysicality as people.
I think he hits our the mentalhealth side of it and as we all
seek to love ourselves as hekind of I love you, you is just
insane and just so raw.
(31:23):
But just realizing I have thisinfluence and this power now and
what am I going to do with?
Sho Baraka (31:29):
it.
LaToya Tucciarone (31:30):
And I've misused it and it's almost like
this motif throughout the wholealbum.
It's like that poem kind ofkeeps coming back and, you know,
making cameos like in differentsongs, as he's just trying to
figure himself out, and I thinkit's something we can all relate
to absolutely, you know.
Sho Baraka (31:50):
Also, while all of my favorite people go to south
africa, yeah, to find themselves.
LaToya Tucciarone (31:55):
dave chappelle kendrickrick myself,
myself as well.
Sho Baraka (32:00):
So no, yeah, it's, that's dope, that's great.
LaToya Tucciarone (32:03):
Yeah, what is this song?
The Cost of a Dollar.
How much is it?
How much a dollar?
Sho Baraka (32:08):
costs.
So a buddy of mine, I taught aclass up at Wake Forest Divinity
School and it was on hip-hop,politics and race and whatnot.
And the gentleman who, uh, who,had me come down to teach the
cast.
Derrick hicks is a wonderfulbrother.
He actually wrote an article,uh academic piece around that
(32:29):
song, which I think isphenomenal, and so, if you have
a chance, google search it.
I don't know what academicjournal it's in, but Derek Hicks
, kendrick Lamar.
How much does the dollar cost?
LaToya Tucciarone (32:38):
But yeah, I mean even the wisdom to um, if
you don't know how much a dollarcosts, is essentially
Kendrick's interaction in SouthAfrica with a homeless man who
asked him to give him money, andthe, the dialogue and the
interaction that they have.
But even the wisdom tounderstand the profoundness of
(33:02):
that moment and to write a songabout it.
Yeah, just the.
Sho Baraka (33:08):
If it was real or not.
Here's the thing about artistsSometimes you don't make up a
story.
LaToya Tucciarone (33:12):
That is true.
Sho Baraka (33:13):
But I think, even in that, like the profoundness,
just the self-awareness, to belike, shout out to you and the
Ted Lasso I just wanted to saythat because I love Ted Las but
I think, even in that, like theprofoundness, to just the
self-awareness to be like, yeah,Shout out to you and the Ted
Lasso I just, I just want to saythat, because I love Ted Lasso,
thank you for honoring my FunkoPop collection.
LaToya Tucciarone (33:26):
Huge Ted Lasso fan, so oh yeah.
Sho Baraka (33:28):
I just can't.
Those are the only ones thatare that I keep.
My eyes keep because of the red.
LaToya Tucciarone (33:32):
But oh, you don't see my Golden Girls.
That's awesome, my golden girls.
That's also.
There you go, which, by the way, is literally the funniest show
of all times.
I don't care if you black,white man woman.
You all people should watchgolden girls no, you and patrice
need to sit down and watch somegolden girls, but I used to
watch it back in the day.
Sho Baraka (33:53):
I just, I just can't say that it's the funniest.
I remember back in the day likeit was like Nickelodeon.
LaToya Tucciarone (33:58):
Nick and Knight or whatever it is.
You're a new person.
Sho Baraka (34:00):
now We've moved into a new stage of life show, a new
age group.
LaToya Tucciarone (34:08):
I don't know if Golden Girls is going to be
the show of choice for that newtransition.
Sho Baraka (34:11):
That is hilarious, so anyway yeah, this album
excellent on so many levels.
Well, let's talk about thelyrics.
LaToya Tucciarone (34:18):
I think what a lot of people underestimate
that every time I hear aKendrick song, the level of
words, not just the like, theamount of words is one thing,
the use of words, but like thecadence of the words.
I could never even remotely.
(34:40):
I mean just genius.
Sho Baraka (34:43):
He's phenomenal.
LaToya Tucciarone (34:44):
And, if most of you guys didn't know, he's
actually the first artistoutside of jazz and classical
music to win a Pulitzer Prize.
Sho Baraka (34:53):
Yeah, for the album Damn, which also is probably one
of my favorite albums.
Right Side note how much didyou, Mr Morales and the Big
Steppers, are you a big fan ofthat album?
Did you listen to that?
LaToya Tucciarone (35:04):
no, okay, so you talk about mental health.
Sho Baraka (35:06):
That album is basically his therapy session.
LaToya Tucciarone (35:11):
Uh, it took me a while to actually like that
album oh really, I wasn't thebiggest fan of that album when
it first came out.
Okay, why was that?
Sho Baraka (35:17):
Because I felt like it was very so.
Sometimes artists can get toopersonal.
And it's like some of the stuffis kind of like you probably
should just.
LaToya Tucciarone (35:30):
Leave that in the journal.
Sho Baraka (35:32):
Although I know you're giving it to us as a form
of you processing your griefand trauma.
LaToya Tucciarone (35:36):
Right.
Sho Baraka (35:37):
But it also is very weighty.
Right, so it's not as enjoyableas an album like this like
where there's an all right andstuff like that.
LaToya Tucciarone (35:44):
Right right, right, right right.
Sho Baraka (35:46):
It's very heavy.
Okay, okay and it's not just aneasy listen, right, and so when
you talk about him being wordy,I will say, in some senses that
may be a knock on him.
Yeah, is that?
Sometimes people just want tobe able to be like, allow a song
to wash over them.
Right and just to be able tolike turn on a song and not just
have to think about what you'retalking about.
LaToya Tucciarone (36:07):
Right.
Sho Baraka (36:08):
And he doesn't really allow you that.
On on on some of these, on someof those items.
LaToya Tucciarone (36:12):
Again, I think it's one of those things
where I get this sense.
Of course, this is my opinionthat the I think he's very
thankful that this has broughthim a fame and money and things
like that, but it is.
I think it is therapy for him.
I think he is one of thosecreators that just has to create
(36:36):
, and he's like I'm just goingto put it out there in the world
and then you take it as youwant to take it, and I just have
mad respect for that and Iagree, and I will say even as my
, for my own self.
Sho Baraka (36:49):
I like these are practices that I think I even
take up in the sense of I don'tnecessarily make music for
people.
I make it because I just lovethe idea of creating art.
The best thing that can happento a me and a Kendrick is that
we have the bandwidth to do thatwithout having to make music
(37:09):
for, like tax purposes, and youknow, to stay within a
particular tax bracket orwhatever you know, because a lot
of your favorite artists, a lotof your favorite artists, a lot
of our favorite artists better.
Yet what happens is they maketheir first album phenomenal.
Right, because they spent theirwhole life making that album
Right.
And then they get stardom andthey were like, ooh, I got to
keep this.
LaToya Tucciarone (37:29):
I got to follow that up, I got to follow.
Sho Baraka (37:31):
And then their second album and third album.
You're like Right are found outand discovered by the world,
yeah, and then when they realizelike, oh, this is, I, enjoy
this right, and then they becomedifferent people and then
you're like we miss you we misswho you were right, right, right
(37:51):
and I think um.
The one thing that I do thatI've also noticed that kendrick
does is that they just take timehe takes time he doesn't feel
the pressure to have to makemusic right, right and music.
That was also exemplified inhis response to Drake.
Drake makes a diss track andhe's like I'm going to give you
I think he gives him 20something hours to respond.
LaToya Tucciarone (38:12):
He's like I'm going to take as long as I want
to, because that's the processfor which you make art.
And.
Sho Baraka (38:19):
I think too much of art or culture making.
Today is in a hurry.
LaToya Tucciarone (38:25):
Oh 100%.
Sho Baraka (38:26):
And I think that lends itself to this idea of
productivity.
We don't feel like we'reproductive unless we're always.
LaToya Tucciarone (38:31):
Right.
Sho Baraka (38:32):
Social media has created that in us.
LaToya Tucciarone (38:33):
Right.
Sho Baraka (38:34):
It rewards us to be.
LaToya Tucciarone (38:36):
Yep.
Sho Baraka (38:37):
It's called fast art .
LaToya Tucciarone (38:38):
You know you got fast fashion and you get
fast art and it's cheap andpeople know and I think the best
artists, very few people canmake, consistently make good
things without rest, and I thinkKendrick is an example of
somebody who says you know what?
Sho Baraka (38:53):
I can disappear, live life, come back and and all
as well, and I yeah, and giveyou what I think is unique.
LaToya Tucciarone (39:00):
So last question what does this piece of
art, this piece of pop culturemean to humanity, in your
opinion?
Just wrap it up, the little bow, that's it?
Sho Baraka (39:14):
These are one of those questions you emailed
before.
What does it mean to humanity?
LaToya Tucciarone (39:20):
Or what do we learn about ourselves as?
Sho Baraka (39:22):
humans?
I think.
Well, I guess a differentquestion and I'll answer that
first.
I think you kind of gave me agood ramp when you talked about
what this album is.
It's a homage to becoming,homage to becoming, and I think,
(39:47):
all of what it means to become,to love yourself, to understand
who you are in the world, tounderstand what the world thinks
about you, to understand whatit means to advocate for other
people as well, and so I thinkthis piece of art and its
commentary on humanity itself, Ithink it's just it's it's
second to none.
When it comes on humanityitself, I think it's just it's
it's second to none.
When it comes to hip hop, Ithink yeah, um, I mean,
(40:10):
obviously there are a lot ofliterary pieces or films that
can kind of rival it, but whenit comes to hip hop albums,
especially within the last 15years, I would say like I don't
know if there are many albumsthat I would say rival not only
this album but his body of workin general, right, his general
body of work, because I see GoodKid Mad City.
I see this I see Damn.
I see those three albumsespecially, and you can even say
(40:32):
Mr Morana I see those fouralbums, as like this anthology
of work that just speaks toculture wonderfully.
And each tells its own story.
In a sense, it is like ametamorphosis, as we're talking
about Pimp a Butterfly.
I don't think we even mentionedthe name of the album.
LaToya Tucciarone (40:51):
Oh, yeah, yeah, to Pimp a Butterfly.
Sho Baraka (40:53):
So we're talking about this metamorphosis of a
young man who was unsure ofhimself, who allowed peer
pressure to kind of likecultivate and define who he is
to now come into a place wherehe's finding himself to next
album, kind of like wondering ifthis new evolution of who he is
is this.
LaToya Tucciarone (41:12):
Is it a good thing?
Is it a good thing Is?
Sho Baraka (41:14):
this who I am Like, who do I want to be after now
coming to fame, et cetera, etcetera.
Oh, now that I have fame, I'mhaving to deal with the trauma
and all of my past hurt and pain, and I'm realizing that these
things have affected the peopleI love.
And so it's a good story ofevolution and that becoming is
(41:34):
that it is becoming, and thatyou never kind of landed in one
space, like you're alwaysgrowing and I think we as
Christians know this like thisis sanctification.
We would just call it asanctification process.
How am I being sanctified?
And knowing that the gospel iscontinuing to draw me closer to
this understanding of who I amand Jesus, and to other people
and how I work, and so that ishow I would answer that.
LaToya Tucciarone (41:55):
The first question is what does it mean to
humanity?
But I think you answered it'sessentially the same thing.
I think it's.
I mean, it's essentially thesame thing.
I think it's a, like you said,it's a beautiful piece of art
that I think, as a partaker, aconsumer of it, allows me to get
(42:16):
a glimpse of this man'sbecoming, which I think gives us
freedom to become.
You know, I think I think a lotof times the things that we
listen to can, um, bring aboutquestions in ourselves that we
can start to analyze andquestion the theme of self love.
(42:37):
I mean, what person doesn'twrestle with that?
And so I think to pimp abutterfly is just another
example of something that we canenjoy and consume but that can
move us to uh be better humanbeings absolutely I think at the
end of the day.
Sho Baraka (42:55):
So I love, yeah, absolutely.
This album is amazing, umwhat's your favorite song.
LaToya Tucciarone (43:01):
What's your favorite song?
Sho Baraka (43:02):
before we go what's your favorite song?
Before we go what's yourfavorite song?
LaToya Tucciarone (43:04):
Oh my God, my favorite song.
Sho Baraka (43:06):
You said you love you.
Is that what you said?
LaToya Tucciarone (43:08):
Yeah, but I don't think that that is like I
would say the Black or theBearded.
I mean that he dropped, I meanit just drops and you're like
dang, like.
I just had the most, I think,visceralceral reaction to that.
I don't know if I could pick afavorite, because again this
reminds me of like what's goingon um.
(43:30):
Marguerite's album is anotherpiece.
That needs to be the wholething.
Sho Baraka (43:35):
You don't just pick and choose.
LaToya Tucciarone (43:36):
You listen to the whole thing, so it's hard
to pick one, because it's it's.
Is that a cop out?
No, it's not a cop out.
I was just saying that you knowjust a small little tidbit.
Sho Baraka (43:47):
There's a couple of things and, I think, the reason
why this album is also importantfor this time.
To answer your last question,to add an epilogue to your last
question is that this thingabout the song All Right and how
?
LaToya Tucciarone (44:01):
pivotal.
That song was yeah in the album.
Song was yeah in the album.
Yeah, not only the album, I'mtalking about in culture.
So during protests people weresinging this particular song.
Sho Baraka (44:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is kind of like a progeny
of, of of gosh.
LaToya Tucciarone (44:16):
What is it we shall overcome so this is like
the 60s had we shall overcomeyeah.
And the 60s had we ShallOvercome yeah.
Sho Baraka (44:23):
And the 2010s we have in the 20s we have, we Gon'
.
LaToya Tucciarone (44:28):
Be Alright, you know what I mean, right.
Sho Baraka (44:29):
And to think that that song actually was not
Kendrick's song first.
LaToya Tucciarone (44:35):
It was actually.
Sho Baraka (44:35):
Fabulous a rapper.
Fabulous Pharrell gave it tosomeone else and I am so happy
that Fabulous said no to thatsong.
Yeah, oh, wow to someone elseand I am so happy that Fabulous
said no to that song yeah, ohwow, I did not know that,
because I don't think this albumis what it is without All Right
yeah, that's awesome, well,show, thank you.
LaToya Tucciarone (44:50):
Always a good time, always have so much to
offer for people out there whohave not listened to this album,
who maybe are like I don'tlisten to hip hop or whatever
please don't be like that andgive it a try, even if you don't
like hip hop, even if you don't.
If you just appreciate music,you should listen to this album,
but show thank you so much it'sbeen a pleasure, as always.
(45:14):
Show how can the people findyou.
Sho Baraka (45:17):
Yeah, if you have intrigued them so much they're
like we need to know more, and Ihave, of course you have.
Have my time.
Have my time.
Ladies and gentlemen.
The best way is go toshowbarakacom.
That's just my website, and onthere you'll find all the
Instagrams videos.
I try to keep it updated so,like the latest things that I'm
into, love it.
(45:37):
The other thing I will say isthat I am an editorial director
at Christianity Today, so I amgo read some of my writings, but
also I am looking forthoughtful individuals out there
in the world who want to write.
LaToya Tucciarone (45:48):
There you go, you know, contribute Boom, have
your own little piece ofculture on Christianity Today.
Sho Baraka (45:55):
Yeah, we want people to write about stuff like To
Pimp a Butterfly.
LaToya Tucciarone (45:57):
Yeah, and then we want Christianity to
sponsor our podcast, and then wewant Christiana.
Sho Baraka (46:02):
Nade to sponsor our podcast.
Okay, all right, that may bepossible.
It may not be possible,probably not.
All right, well, thanks again,but that's how you need to think
, I know, right.
LaToya Tucciarone (46:08):
Right, right.
Thank you, show.
And thank you to everyone forlistening to the Human Pop
Podcast.
It's pop for humans' sake.
We'll catch you next time.
Hi everyone, I'm LaToya Tucciarone and this
is the Human Pop Podcast.
It's pop for humans' sake, andtoday I'm going to be talking to
my buddy, Sho Baraka, and we'regoing to be breaking down
Kendrick Lamar's album To Pimp aButterfly.
It's going to be a beautifultime.
(00:22):
Thanks for joining us, joe.
Thanks for coming on.
it's so good to have you hereexciting long time friend bro
yes, long time it's been a whilesince we've seen each other,
but oh but we have been friendsfor you get to that point where
(00:46):
you want to forget how long it'sbeen.
Sho Baraka (00:48):
I know right, right, right, right, because it's like
I don't want to show how old Iam oh, that is true, it's been
that long folks it's been thatlong absolutely so thanks again
for coming on the show.
LaToya Tucciarone (00:56):
Why don't you tell the folks a tell me about
yourself.
Sho Baraka (01:01):
I just the easiest way to describe me is a polymath
, I'm a polymath so a person whodoes multiple things, but I
think for the purposes of thisparticular podcast I am an
artist, and a hip-hop artist.
That's how most people came toknow me, but through my hip-hop
I guess you can say life.
(01:21):
It afforded me the opportunityto be a professor and to teach
about race politics, hip hop, soI think that that helps inform
a lot about why I'm here.
I guess you could say the nexusof my musical kind of life and
academic life.
LaToya Tucciarone (01:36):
Yeah, I think like you are like the perfect
example of the breadth and widthof the artist life.
You know that you never have tobe like defined by one thing
that one thing speaks to anotherspeaks to another.
You know we did another showwhere a friend talked about like
hermeneutics and how that easehas even taught him about film.
(01:58):
You know and how all of thesethings kind of layer you know,
cause sometimes people can belike oh, I'm an artist, I'm a
painter, painter, that's what Iam.
But how our art can lead usinto other yeah genres I think
you know I will say this.
Sho Baraka (02:12):
I do stand on the shoulders of artists before me
and I think you know individualslike Q-tip, individuals like
Questlove Bun B, who have hadwonderful careers in the
industry but have transitionedinto some of your academic
spaces, some people who are likecurators for museums or et
(02:32):
cetera.
So it's great to see thatthey've done it.
LaToya Tucciarone (02:36):
And.
Sho Baraka (02:36):
I had aspirations of being that person before them,
but it was just an affirmationlike oh, now I know that I can
do it.
And I think it's more commonfor individuals to see that they
can expand themselves outsideof not only just hip hop, but
also outside of creative workand vocation.
So that's some of my aspirationis not only just to do it, but
(02:59):
to be an inspiration for otherpeople.
LaToya Tucciarone (03:01):
I love it.
I'm actually going to put a pinin that because actually
there's something.
I want to circle back on that alittle bit later.
But tell me about pop culture.
So you have been a lover of popculture.
That's one of the reasons why Iasked you to be on the show.
You're very knowledgeable aboutpop culture, but when did you
(03:21):
kind of when do you feel likeyou first got exposed to pop
culture?
What has pop culture meant toyou and your development as an
artist, in a person?
Sho Baraka (03:32):
um, I think exposure to pop culture is like exposure
to whiteness in this countryyou don't really have a choice.
No, I just I know youappreciate that, um, unless
you're a fundamentalistChristian.
LaToya Tucciarone (03:46):
And then you.
Sho Baraka (03:50):
It was kept from you , but not the whiteness, but the
pop culture.
So for me, I think I came outthe womb.
I remember some of my earliestmemories.
This is no joke.
Some of my earliest memories ofbeing reared as a child had to
do with either film or music.
I one of my earliest memories.
(04:10):
I remember being in a theaterwatching Purple Rain.
LaToya Tucciarone (04:15):
So first of all, right, you shouldn't be
watching Purple Rain as a childand I was.
Sho Baraka (04:22):
That was the 80s, so I'm pretty sure I was no older
than like five, six or seven atthe time.
LaToya Tucciarone (04:26):
Right, right right.
Sho Baraka (04:27):
And as I go back and I watch films like that, I'm
like what in the world are myparents thinking, why was I
there?
Also, you got to understand hiphop was coming into a place of
pop culture.
It was before, it was kind oflike a niche thing, but now it's
being played on radio.
And so I have two olderbrothers, but my oldest brother
(04:47):
six years older than me.
You know you have someone who'ssix years older than you.
They're going to be formativein how you know your identity,
cultivating your identitycultivation.
And so Run DMC, fat Boys, allthe LL Cool J, salt and Pepper,
like he was playing thoserecords or cassettes.
And so I'm like a young boy,like what is this?
(05:11):
This sounds much different fromwhat than Prince and Al Jarreau
, whoever else is.
My parents are listening toStevie Wonder and so that's
stuck.
And so yeah, and move films aswell yep uh, well, I already
mentioned uh, but hip-hop films,like some of you listeners, you
(05:33):
wild style, uh, breaking,breaking, um, what's the one I'm
um, what is the one that I'mmissing right now?
So, anyway, crush groove wasanother one.
So yeah, those are films that Iwatched as a young child and I
was like this is, for somereason, this is me.
LaToya Tucciarone (05:52):
Right, this is something that I identify
with.
You could completely identifywith it, so that was pop culture
.
Sho Baraka (05:57):
That was when I fell in love and kind of identified
myself as a consumer of it, ifyou will, without knowing I was
an actual consumer.
LaToya Tucciarone (06:04):
And then obviously it greatly influenced
you enough to say I want to bean artist.
Yeah, so how that?
Sho Baraka (06:11):
kind of happened was .
It was actually I didn't reallythink that I wanted to rap, but
my parents introduced me tolots of poetry, yes, so through,
like the Harlem Renaissance,through Amiri Baraka or
different people.
I would find this like desireto write poetry.
And then, not until I got tohigh school, did I realize that
(06:34):
girls like rappers more thanthey like poets.
I was like, oh, let me do thispivot and do this hip-hop thing
yeah.
LaToya Tucciarone (06:41):
You nerds who are doing these poems.
Sho Baraka (06:45):
So yeah, that's how I got into hip hop.
It was much later.
LaToya Tucciarone (06:49):
I was more of a storyteller.
Sho Baraka (06:50):
I love writing.
I wanted to be a novelist, astoryteller and a poet.
LaToya Tucciarone (06:55):
Wow.
Sho Baraka (06:58):
And so it's funny how those people who may know me
, it's funny how I kind of putthat in the back burner and now
I'm returning to the I was aboutto say it's like a full, full
circle, absolutely moment.
LaToya Tucciarone (07:09):
You just had to get those girls first.
Sho Baraka (07:10):
I had to get that girl, that girl one girl.
LaToya Tucciarone (07:13):
I'll put you in very, very clear, and then
you return back to yourself.
Then I return back to my as anartist, absolutely and I love
that because it's not like, butyou're still making music.
Sho Baraka (07:26):
Absolutely.
LaToya Tucciarone (07:27):
So again, those things are not two
separate things.
Sho Baraka (07:30):
Yeah, I think it's.
They build on each other.
They all come from the samefamily tree.
Right, right, right they'rejust one large stump of
storytelling.
LaToya Tucciarone (07:40):
Yeah.
Sho Baraka (07:40):
And storytelling, you have these branches Right
and yeah.
And storytelling, you havethese branches Right and yeah.
LaToya Tucciarone (07:44):
I think that's one of the things I love
the most about culture popculture, art is the storytelling
aspect, and you can tell astory from a moment, from a
sculpture.
You can tell a story Earliertoday talking to somebody about
Monet's haystacks and this manpainted 26 different versions of
(08:08):
a haystack and you're like whatin the world?
But the emotions and what youfeel from that, and he is
telling a story.
He's telling a story of light,of time, of moments.
So it's just so beautiful howall of these different arts can
tell a story.
And speaking of stories, youhave chosen to come on the show
and to talk about Kendrick Lamar.
Sho Baraka (08:29):
The greatest hip hop artist.
Oh second greatest hip hopartist of all time, after myself
Of course, of course.
No, yeah, Kendrick Lamar, Ihave great appreciation in the
whole greatest thing, and I wasjust being but yeah, he's
definitely one of them.
LaToya Tucciarone (08:44):
Well, some do consider him to be Absolutely,
I would say he's.
Sho Baraka (08:46):
I mean, he's one of my favorite.
LaToya Tucciarone (08:48):
Right right.
Sho Baraka (08:49):
I think he is, uh, just phenomenal.
It's just.
It's kind of hard to to explain.
Here's the thing I don't wantto do during this interview.
LaToya Tucciarone (08:59):
Okay, okay, and I find a lot of academics do
this, yeah.
Sho Baraka (09:03):
And I'm not saying that I'm an academic,
necessarily but I find that whenpeople try to um, give language
and critique and commentary toalbums, they put their own
thoughts, yes, and I think it'sgood for art to do like art
allows us to do that, like youknow great interpretation of a
particular scene, of an image,as you were talking about with.
(09:26):
Monet, it's easy for us to say,oh no, this is what it means,
right, but I also find that wedo that exceptionally poorly, or
?
well within hip-hop artists, weattribute things right to what
they're saying.
So what I'll say is what Ithink.
Yes, is to me what I think hewas probably communicating, but
I don't want to say for certain.
(09:46):
But he is an individual whogives a lot of opportunity for
exploration and interpretation.
He is probably one of the bestat that, very similar to
singer-songwriters of the past,your Dylans, your Lennonsens,
your people who were veryesoteric.
(10:07):
and hip-hop, in a sense, likesto think of itself being
esoteric, but I think a lot ofit isn't right quite as it is
kind of straightforward it is,and it I think it is for the
artist.
LaToya Tucciarone (10:19):
It's pretty straightforward for them, but I
think that they realize thatwhen you perhaps put your art
out there, it becomes esoteric.
Sho Baraka (10:29):
Yes, and I think that's one of his greatest
attributes and simultaneouslyone of his greatest probably
handicaps and the reason why heprobably is not a bigger pop
artist or pop star, because hegives himself up to the process
and the art more than thinkingof like what can I make that
(10:53):
will get this particularbillboard or this particular?
LaToya Tucciarone (10:56):
commercial spot Right.
Sho Baraka (10:57):
So anyway, yeah, there's there's always a
negotiation you have to make asan artist, and I think he is
probably the pinnacle of what ofan example.
He is, the the paragon, if youwill, of how to do how to be an
artist, yeah, but also how to bepop culture right yeah right,
but what do you think it is?
LaToya Tucciarone (11:18):
before we get into the specifics of the album
, what do you think it is thatallows him to blend those two
worlds?
Because not everybody can dothat right.
I mean, there are so manypeople who either swing to one
side of the paradigm or theother.
Either they are like I am anartiste and nobody understands
what they're doing and it'sunrelatable and they can't
(11:38):
connect, or they're just popmusic and they're talking about
nothing you know.
So what do you think about?
Kendrick kind of allows him toblend those two worlds together.
Sho Baraka (11:52):
This is where I'm definitely going to give it a
little bit of my personal like.
LaToya Tucciarone (11:54):
Yes, please.
Sho Baraka (11:56):
Assessment or thoughts Cause, I don't.
LaToya Tucciarone (11:58):
All of this is our personal assessment.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sho Baraka (12:00):
Well, there's some things I can communicate, like I
definitively know this, becausehe said this right so I don't
know if he's not said this, butI think it has a little bit to
do.
Well, in general, let me startin general, generalizing it.
I think of uh malcolmgladwell's much debated outliers
, right you think about howpeople get to a particular place
.
It's never necessarily just offof their merit right.
(12:23):
There are a lot ofcircumstances that are
surrounding that individual thathelps perpetuate them to a
particular place, and I think heis a product of that, like he's
a product of West Coast musicthat is very pop culture in a
sense, like listen to grow uplistening to NWA, snoop Tupac.
LaToya Tucciarone (12:44):
Right, tupac Right.
Sho Baraka (12:44):
Even if those people weren't necessarily as popular
as he is now.
LaToya Tucciarone (12:48):
Right.
Sho Baraka (12:49):
They were the epitome of kind of like what a
mass amount of people inCalifornia and elsewhere Well
they defined Right West Coast.
They defined a genre within hiphop yeah A genre within a genre
, and he's the product of that,so he grew up in a time that was
really important.
LaToya Tucciarone (13:07):
Right.
Sho Baraka (13:08):
Also what you'll notice in this particular album.
To get into the weeds of it,you'll listen to a song like
Wesley's Revenge, or Is that theright name of?
LaToya Tucciarone (13:21):
it Wesley's Theory.
Wesley's Theory.
Sho Baraka (13:24):
Wesley's Theory and King Kunta, and you'll hear jazz
elements.
Yeah, or you'll hear certainkind of like stylings that are
more is more of like theunderground West Coast hip hop,
which is like groups likeFreestyle, Fellowship, AC Alone,
(13:46):
Project, Blow and what that isis.
LaToya Tucciarone (13:50):
you wouldn't know those names unless you were
deep, deep, deep in West.
Sho Baraka (13:52):
Coast Not only just hip hop, but West Coast hip hop,
and so they were like theweirdos of like, with all
respect.
Because I love like, so I grewup during the same time so they
were like the undergroundweirdos of West Coast hip.
Respect, right, because I lovelike, so I grew up during the
same time so they were like theunderground, underground weirdos
of West Coast hip hop.
Wow, and so Kendrick had thebenefit of like having this
weirdo West Coast influence andalso like this gangster popular
(14:18):
kind of West Coast influence.
LaToya Tucciarone (14:20):
Right.
Sho Baraka (14:20):
And that's the reason why he raps the way he
does.
LaToya Tucciarone (14:23):
Right.
Sho Baraka (14:23):
Like the cadences and the cause that's more of
like the Freestyle Fellowship,the more AC alone kind of the
jazz elements that they had, butthen kind of like being
grounded and granted, I'm notsaying that these folks don't
ground, but being grounded insocial commentary comes from the
NWA's, the Snoops and also youalso got to understand, like
(14:43):
being in Compton, being fromCompton.
LaToya Tucciarone (14:44):
Commentary comes from the NWA's.
Sho Baraka (14:44):
The Snoop's and also .
You also got to understand likebeing in Compton, being from
Compton.
LaToya Tucciarone (14:50):
Right.
Sho Baraka (14:51):
In some ways geography matters in hip hop.
Yep, Like you have two artists,one artist coming from, you
know, Compton and another artistcoming from.
LaToya Tucciarone (15:01):
Canada.
No, I said it.
I said what I said.
I was born in Canada.
I was born in Canada.
I was born from Canada.
No, I said it.
I said I was born in Canada.
I was born in Canada.
So I won't tolerate thedisrespect.
I was born in Canada, that'sright.
Sho Baraka (15:14):
You didn't stay very long, so anyway uh, let's just
say Fayetteville Cause, that'swhere we are right now so.
Fayetteville uh, georgia versussomeone who's coming from
Compton off rip.
Georgia versus someone who'scoming from Compton Off rip.
There's a privilege in somesenses not financial or class
prep, but there's a socialprivilege to say hey, I come
from Compton.
We are going to perk our earsto the person who's coming from
(15:35):
Compton more than the person whosays I'm from.
LaToya Tucciarone (15:37):
Fayetteville and they're like what?
Sit your ass down when Right.
Sho Baraka (15:40):
We don't want to hear from you.
You know what I'm saying, right?
We don't want to hear from youRight, and so in that sense
there's a benefit from that, notonly because we're more willing
to listen, but because of someof the things that are happening
in his society, Right, and theattention that is drawn to those
areas, you know, fromcelebrities, from people,
whatever, right.
So there in there comes.
(16:00):
This cultivation I think isquite important for an artist
like him there comes.
LaToya Tucciarone (16:05):
This cultivation, I think is quite
important for an artist like him.
It's so fascinating because, Imean, I think he would say some
of the same that the, the placehe grew up, made him the person
that he is, and I think thatthis album really, I mean
definitely dives into hisjourney with that.
You know, I think one of theways that he was and I'd love to
get your opinion on this theway that he was kind of able to
bridge those two worlds to youis really one word, to me it's
(16:27):
authenticity, right.
Sho Baraka (16:29):
Absolutely.
LaToya Tucciarone (16:30):
It's just bleeding from every word on this
album and I think thatauthenticity is just contagious.
It's just something that wereact to.
You can sense it.
There's not always words aroundit, but you were like, okay,
this person has lived this and Ithink that that's what made
(16:52):
Tupac, you know, so popular.
But yet there was but you stillhad more of, I think there was
more of a pop element to thoseWest Coast artists that you were
talking to, more so than evenKendrick, and I think he kind of
brought this often, thisrawness and authenticity,
(17:13):
because even Snoop it's polished.
Sho Baraka (17:16):
Yeah, so here's where I will push back just a
little bit on Tupac.
LaToya Tucciarone (17:19):
I hear exactly what you're saying I
agree.
He's a bit polished as well,would you say.
Sho Baraka (17:25):
I wouldn't even say polished is the right term.
What I would say is that yousay authenticity.
I would probably use ajuxtaposition to authenticity or
just a word in opposition tothat, and say the reason why I
think we also love Kendrick isbecause it doesn't come off as
performance Right.
LaToya Tucciarone (17:44):
It comes off as performance Right.
Sho Baraka (17:45):
It comes off as genuine Right and so.
But I will say pop came off asperformance because, although he
okay, let me say this, Cause Iknow people are going to- let me
, let me say, let me to somepeople we knew, pop knew when
the lights were on.
Right, like he knew, like thisis an opportunity although the
(18:09):
message was genuine and maybeeven knowing who his mom was,
who his aunt was, and knowingwhere he came from, he went to a
performing arts school.
He wasn't necessarily from theWest Coast.
He moved from the East to theWest.
He was a background dancer.
He knew the things that hemoved from the east to the west.
He was a backup, a backgrounddancer.
He knew the things that heneeded to do in order to get to
(18:29):
a particular place.
Like most of pox friends willsay, like he wasn't really a
gangster he was like a greatdude.
He's a philosopher right he's asmart dude.
He was an activator rightkendrick is none of the kendrick
is just a regular kid fromCompton who probably doesn't
want to be bothered and he justwants to make really good art
(18:51):
and he's like there's noperformance in him to that
degree where you feel like he isinauthentically trying to gain
something, if that makes senseand just to all those folks
listening.
What I'm not saying is Pop wasnot genuine.
LaToya Tucciarone (19:07):
What I'm saying is like he used his
performance.
Sho Baraka (19:09):
Yes, in a way that gave him.
LaToya Tucciarone (19:12):
I would say would you say so?
Where that came to me is, Ithink T-Pack was more cultivated
, if that makes yeah, absolutelyso.
Sho Baraka (19:20):
I grew up.
So how about this?
I grew up in a.
My mom was a Black Panther sovery similar to Pop.
I was cultivated to almost bean activist.
Right I was handed.
I was handed books.
I was given the autobiographyof Malcolm X in junior high to
read.
So in some senses there was anexpectation for me to fight the
(19:42):
power.
LaToya Tucciarone (19:42):
When I was young.
Sho Baraka (19:44):
And so that does something to you when you get to
college.
I went to Tuskegee University.
LaToya Tucciarone (19:48):
That wasn't because I really really, really,
really, really wanted to go toTuskegee.
Sho Baraka (19:51):
It was because part I was like yeah, I do really
want to go to HBCU.
There are no HBCUs on the WestCoast for those people, so
growing up in California,watching school days and
different world.
I'm like well, this is thetrajectory for me, and so there
is a cultivation and in someways, we carry those
expectations of other people onyou and you're like well, this
(20:14):
is what I need to do in order tobe that person.
I don't think Kendrick feelsthat.
LaToya Tucciarone (20:19):
Or he.
I think he was just cultivatedby something different.
Yes, absolutely I think he wascultivated by the streets, his
environment.
It's him wrestling with thatcultivation as he kind of enters
(20:43):
into a new space and time as asigned recording artist who's
now making money as anindividual who probably never,
actually wanted that life yeahknew there was something like.
Sho Baraka (20:53):
Knew he?
I imagine kendrick to be likeif he didn't grow up in that
space, if he he grew up inFayetteville he would be the
nerd who really wanted to justwrite poetry, maybe rap but was
probably reading, you know, ToniMorrison.
I don't know what you can hearand to go to a different album
(21:13):
of his and Good Kid, Mad City,the Art of Peer Pressure
Basically what he's just sayingis like I'm the homies but I
don't really want to do thisyeah, yeah, yeah.
I felt that, as a young like, Ifelt that not to like insert
myself into, like kendrick storyno I grew up in southern
california around gangs, myoldest brother was, like I said
to someone on influence, he wasin part of the street life right
(21:36):
and so that fell on me a lotright but I knew I was like yo,
I really want to play dungeons,dragons, right, right and so.
But you know what, my homiesout here, we smoking weed, we
doing this, that's what you doget it the more you're around it
, yeah, the more it becomes apart of you right, right so even
there are things and what?
some of kendrick's lyrics,especially within some of the
(21:58):
later stuff.
Oh, you're like, I don't lovethe perpetuation of violence and
some of the stuff that he's.
You know the way he talks about, but I also understand.
LaToya Tucciarone (22:07):
That's just a past, of who you are, of where
you come from, and trying toreconcile that past with who you
(22:28):
are now and and kind of likewho you want to be and I think.
I think what I really lovedabout it is how raw his
communication is.
Like you know, when we talkabout that polish, not polish,
that kind of cultivate, I justfeel like he does not care.
You know like he's like, thisis the way I talk, this is the
(22:50):
way I communicate, and it'sfunny we can talk about this a
little bit because both of youand I are Christians and so you
would not grow up thinking let'slisten to, I mean, this
profanity-laced thing.
But I was telling my husband,andrew, that I feel, like
Kendrick's, so authentic that tocuss is not a bad word.
Sho Baraka (23:14):
It's appropriate.
LaToya Tucciarone (23:14):
Yes, it's a language, it is, it's literally
simply the language that hespeaks and uh, shameless plug in
chapter six of my book.
Sho Baraka (23:25):
He saw that it was good.
LaToya Tucciarone (23:27):
I addressed this very thing yes and I used
kindred as a reference yes, thewire as a reference to also
which uh next time next, but oneof the things I say is that I
stole it from Richard Pryor.
Sho Baraka (23:38):
This may be profane, but it's also profound.
Wow, yes, boom, so sometimeslanguage is necessary to
communicate the truth of a thing.
LaToya Tucciarone (23:48):
One hundred percent, and I feel like he just
does not hold back on this.
Let's take a break and hearfrom our sponsor.
Let's take a break and hearfrom our sponsor.
So I can tell that this albumhas been very meaningful to you.
Why is it personally meaningful?
Sho Baraka (24:10):
to you.
This is a dope album.
That's number one.
We ain't even got to get toodeep into it, right, right.
LaToya Tucciarone (24:16):
If you have not listened to this album.
People like for real and wehave it here on vinyl.
Beautiful, but it's meant to be, would you say.
It's meant to be listenedthrough, like if you can sit
down it has to be listened to.
Sho Baraka (24:31):
Yes, like all the way through, at least the first
time you listen?
To it and then the second timeyou'll be like, oh, you listen
to it, listen to it.
And then the second time you'llbe like, oh my gosh, when you
come to a revelation at the end,and then you'll want to go back
and listen to it again and thenafter that listen as you please
, right it's kind of like asystematic theology or a
biblical theology, but you wantto read through it and then,
(24:53):
once you read through it, thenyou can come back and okay, this
chapter is helpful, right Ilove this.
I love this album mainly becauseit's a really good album.
Yeah, and I just like artistswho you could tell put thought
and effort into a project somuch like don't you, don't you
like.
I would even say this I likebad stuff that just has good
(25:16):
thought and effort into it.
LaToya Tucciarone (25:17):
It's like, as long as I feel like you put a
lot of time into it Right right,right right.
It's purposeful, exactly it'slike.
Sho Baraka (25:24):
I'll give you a chance because I'm like at least
you put a lot of effort intothis.
LaToya Tucciarone (25:29):
You know what I mean, right.
Sho Baraka (25:30):
So that's one reason .
The second reason why I lovethis album is I love the
musicality.
Yes, as an artist myself, Ilove jazz.
Yep, well, I've grown to beginmy love and appreciation for
jazz.
I don't want to make it seemlike I'm out here.
And so over the past, you know,maybe close to 10 years now
(25:53):
I've grown to appreciate, likejazz, and I think what jazz has
helped me do is help me become abetter writer.
It's helped me become a betterartist.
And when I hear, when I listento this music and I hear, like
Terrence Martin and and all ofhis, you know music, his his
contribution to it.
I just love the sound of thisalbum.
LaToya Tucciarone (26:14):
Yeah.
Sho Baraka (26:15):
I think Kendrick is a wonderful writer.
Yeah, he's also a greatstoryteller.
Um, I think the third reasonwhy I love it is the social
commentary around it.
Yeah, yeah, things he talksabout and the way he talks about
him, right like he doesn't you?
You talked about authenticity.
The one thing I would also sayabout kendrick is he's
self-aware very there's nothingworse than an artist who is
(26:38):
absolutely sure about themselvesand they are off about what
they view themselves, as I thinkhe's very aware, and that's one
of the things that I think gavehim a victory over Drake Drake
is not self-aware.
Although I love Drake, drake isalso one of my top five artists
as well.
But I think the thing thatDrake doesn't Drake doesn't
(26:59):
understand culture the way thatKendrick understands culture.
No, I'm joking so I think hisself-awareness and even in songs
like the Black of the Berry isan example of that where he
talks about.
You know how else can I say whydid I weep when Trayvon Martin
was in the street?
When gangbanging makes me killa nigga, blackening me hypocrite
(27:20):
?
You know?
LaToya Tucciarone (27:21):
what I'm saying, and that's the end of
the song and we out.
Sho Baraka (27:27):
So I think it's just stuff like that, that, I think
well, also to speak about thesocial commentary.
LaToya Tucciarone (27:33):
I think it's very easy to give social
commentary from like up hereright like looking down, you
know, or to even give socialcommentary from.
I used to live this way.
I've stepped out of it.
Now I'm talking about it fromthis other place, but I feel
like.
Sho Baraka (27:51):
Or the Wikipedia version of social.
You didn't Google somethingreal quick, Right, right right
and be like oh, I understand it.
Let me talk about it now.
LaToya Tucciarone (27:58):
You know.
But I feel like he kind ofweaves in not just a social
commentary of where he grew upin the system, but of himself
and himself in the system, andthose two things are so like
woven together and he's notafraid to go there with himself.
He's not afraid to go therewith himself, so it's not just
(28:19):
about let me talk about allthese external problems and you
know the police and theinstitutions, and I'm going to
talk about those too.
But there's also my ownwrestling, my own, you know,
sense of broken self-worth, myown temptation, you know, when
you talk about Lucy being, youknow, it's Lucifer and his own
(28:44):
kind of wrestling with thosethings.
That, I just think, brings thisum deep humanity back to his
work as well, absolutely, and Ithink it's the.
Sho Baraka (28:55):
You know it's not a both sides-ism, but the way that
he addresses he's, I think it'sthe.
You know it's not a both sidesism, but the way that he
addresses he's, I think he's.
He's what's the word I'mlooking for.
He is, um, he's wise andunderstanding in some ways,
understanding how to address aproblem.
It's very simple.
It makes me think of, likeJesus, when he approaches the,
(29:19):
the situation where the woman isabout to be stoned by the
religious leaders.
He addresses the system, headdresses the people behind the
system, but he also looks at thewoman and says, hey, sis go and
sin no more.
We could be out here you knowholding, and so Kendrick does
that.
He talks about policing, hetalks about, but he also, he
also was like well, gangviolence is an issue too, y'all
(29:39):
right, but he also understands,like the institutions perpetuate
this kind of way so so, yeah,so I love that about him and the
there's I forget what number itis.
This may be for the other reasonis I love as I go back, kind of
to regress back to earlier inthis conversation I love the.
The backpacker is a, you know,the backpacker, social conscious
(30:00):
aspect of him and the popculture kind of yeah gangster
rap like he's.
He's done a wonderful job ofmarrying that as yeah as an
artist, and so the fact that youcan go from a song like king
kunta all right to a song likeBlack of the Berry or Complexion
(30:20):
and you feel like all of theall of me who I am at Show
Baraka is being satisfied onthis album, like I'm getting the
rappity rap but I'm alsogetting the very pop
culturalicious you know, jam out, yeah, exactly so um which I
think that song itself needs awhole episode right right, but
(30:45):
that's um.
I'm wondering if there's otherreasons why I love zone.
I'm sure there are, but thoseare I feel like there's some.
LaToya Tucciarone (30:50):
You know, there's only some similarities
between the two of y'all andyour story, oh yeah.
Sho Baraka (30:56):
And then you've got the religious elements, I think
the motifs, the religious motifsthroughout the album as well.
LaToya Tucciarone (31:00):
Yeah, I think he hits it all.
I think he hits, you know, ourphysicality as people.
I think he hits our the mentalhealth side of it and as we all
seek to love ourselves as hekind of I love you, you is just
insane and just so raw.
(31:23):
But just realizing I have thisinfluence and this power now and
what am I going to do with?
Sho Baraka (31:29):
it.
LaToya Tucciarone (31:30):
And I've misused it and it's almost like
this motif throughout the wholealbum.
It's like that poem kind ofkeeps coming back and, you know,
making cameos like in differentsongs, as he's just trying to
figure himself out, and I thinkit's something we can all relate
to absolutely, you know.
Sho Baraka (31:50):
Also, while all of my favorite people go to south
africa, yeah, to find themselves.
LaToya Tucciarone (31:55):
dave chappelle kendrickrick myself,
myself as well.
Sho Baraka (32:00):
So no, yeah, it's, that's dope, that's great.
LaToya Tucciarone (32:03):
Yeah, what is this song?
The Cost of a Dollar.
How much is it?
How much a dollar?
Sho Baraka (32:08):
costs.
So a buddy of mine, I taught aclass up at Wake Forest Divinity
School and it was on hip-hop,politics and race and whatnot.
And the gentleman who, uh, who,had me come down to teach the
cast.
Derrick hicks is a wonderfulbrother.
He actually wrote an article,uh academic piece around that
(32:29):
song, which I think isphenomenal, and so, if you have
a chance, google search it.
I don't know what academicjournal it's in, but Derek Hicks
, kendrick Lamar.
How much does the dollar cost?
LaToya Tucciarone (32:38):
But yeah, I mean even the wisdom to um, if
you don't know how much a dollarcosts, is essentially
Kendrick's interaction in SouthAfrica with a homeless man who
asked him to give him money, andthe, the dialogue and the
interaction that they have.
But even the wisdom tounderstand the profoundness of
(33:02):
that moment and to write a songabout it.
Yeah, just the.
Sho Baraka (33:08):
If it was real or not.
Here's the thing about artistsSometimes you don't make up a
story.
LaToya Tucciarone (33:12):
That is true.
Sho Baraka (33:13):
But I think, even in that, like the profoundness,
just the self-awareness, to belike, shout out to you and the
Ted Lasso I just wanted to saythat because I love Ted Las but
I think, even in that, like theprofoundness, to just the
self-awareness to be like, yeah,Shout out to you and the Ted
Lasso I just, I just want to saythat, because I love Ted Lasso,
thank you for honoring my FunkoPop collection.
LaToya Tucciarone (33:26):
Huge Ted Lasso fan, so oh yeah.
Sho Baraka (33:28):
I just can't.
Those are the only ones thatare that I keep.
My eyes keep because of the red.
LaToya Tucciarone (33:32):
But oh, you don't see my Golden Girls.
That's awesome, my golden girls.
That's also.
There you go, which, by the way, is literally the funniest show
of all times.
I don't care if you black,white man woman.
You all people should watchgolden girls no, you and patrice
need to sit down and watch somegolden girls, but I used to
watch it back in the day.
Sho Baraka (33:53):
I just, I just can't say that it's the funniest.
I remember back in the day likeit was like Nickelodeon.
LaToya Tucciarone (33:58):
Nick and Knight or whatever it is.
You're a new person.
Sho Baraka (34:00):
now We've moved into a new stage of life show, a new
age group.
LaToya Tucciarone (34:08):
I don't know if Golden Girls is going to be
the show of choice for that newtransition.
Sho Baraka (34:11):
That is hilarious, so anyway yeah, this album
excellent on so many levels.
Well, let's talk about thelyrics.
LaToya Tucciarone (34:18):
I think what a lot of people underestimate
that every time I hear aKendrick song, the level of
words, not just the like, theamount of words is one thing,
the use of words, but like thecadence of the words.
I could never even remotely.
(34:40):
I mean just genius.
Sho Baraka (34:43):
He's phenomenal.
LaToya Tucciarone (34:44):
And, if most of you guys didn't know, he's
actually the first artistoutside of jazz and classical
music to win a Pulitzer Prize.
Sho Baraka (34:53):
Yeah, for the album Damn, which also is probably one
of my favorite albums.
Right Side note how much didyou, Mr Morales and the Big
Steppers, are you a big fan ofthat album?
Did you listen to that?
LaToya Tucciarone (35:04):
no, okay, so you talk about mental health.
Sho Baraka (35:06):
That album is basically his therapy session.
LaToya Tucciarone (35:11):
Uh, it took me a while to actually like that
album oh really, I wasn't thebiggest fan of that album when
it first came out.
Okay, why was that?
Sho Baraka (35:17):
Because I felt like it was very so.
Sometimes artists can get toopersonal.
And it's like some of the stuffis kind of like you probably
should just.
LaToya Tucciarone (35:30):
Leave that in the journal.
Sho Baraka (35:32):
Although I know you're giving it to us as a form
of you processing your griefand trauma.
LaToya Tucciarone (35:36):
Right.
Sho Baraka (35:37):
But it also is very weighty.
Right, so it's not as enjoyableas an album like this like
where there's an all right andstuff like that.
LaToya Tucciarone (35:44):
Right right, right, right right.
Sho Baraka (35:46):
It's very heavy.
Okay, okay and it's not just aneasy listen, right, and so when
you talk about him being wordy,I will say, in some senses that
may be a knock on him.
Yeah, is that?
Sometimes people just want tobe able to be like, allow a song
to wash over them.
Right and just to be able tolike turn on a song and not just
have to think about what you'retalking about.
LaToya Tucciarone (36:07):
Right.
Sho Baraka (36:08):
And he doesn't really allow you that.
On on on some of these, on someof those items.
LaToya Tucciarone (36:12):
Again, I think it's one of those things
where I get this sense.
Of course, this is my opinionthat the I think he's very
thankful that this has broughthim a fame and money and things
like that, but it is.
I think it is therapy for him.
I think he is one of thosecreators that just has to create
(36:36):
, and he's like I'm just goingto put it out there in the world
and then you take it as youwant to take it, and I just have
mad respect for that and Iagree, and I will say even as my
, for my own self.
Sho Baraka (36:49):
I like these are practices that I think I even
take up in the sense of I don'tnecessarily make music for
people.
I make it because I just lovethe idea of creating art.
The best thing that can happento a me and a Kendrick is that
we have the bandwidth to do thatwithout having to make music
(37:09):
for, like tax purposes, and youknow, to stay within a
particular tax bracket orwhatever you know, because a lot
of your favorite artists, a lotof your favorite artists, a lot
of our favorite artists better.
Yet what happens is they maketheir first album phenomenal.
Right, because they spent theirwhole life making that album
Right.
And then they get stardom andthey were like, ooh, I got to
keep this.
LaToya Tucciarone (37:29):
I got to follow that up, I got to follow.
Sho Baraka (37:31):
And then their second album and third album.
You're like Right are found outand discovered by the world,
yeah, and then when they realizelike, oh, this is, I, enjoy
this right, and then they becomedifferent people and then
you're like we miss you we misswho you were right, right, right
(37:51):
and I think um.
The one thing that I do thatI've also noticed that kendrick
does is that they just take timehe takes time he doesn't feel
the pressure to have to makemusic right, right and music.
That was also exemplified inhis response to Drake.
Drake makes a diss track andhe's like I'm going to give you
I think he gives him 20something hours to respond.
LaToya Tucciarone (38:12):
He's like I'm going to take as long as I want
to, because that's the processfor which you make art.
And.
Sho Baraka (38:19):
I think too much of art or culture making.
Today is in a hurry.
LaToya Tucciarone (38:25):
Oh 100%.
Sho Baraka (38:26):
And I think that lends itself to this idea of
productivity.
We don't feel like we'reproductive unless we're always.
LaToya Tucciarone (38:31):
Right.
Sho Baraka (38:32):
Social media has created that in us.
LaToya Tucciarone (38:33):
Right.
Sho Baraka (38:34):
It rewards us to be.
LaToya Tucciarone (38:36):
Yep.
Sho Baraka (38:37):
It's called fast art .
LaToya Tucciarone (38:38):
You know you got fast fashion and you get
fast art and it's cheap andpeople know and I think the best
artists, very few people canmake, consistently make good
things without rest, and I thinkKendrick is an example of
somebody who says you know what?
Sho Baraka (38:53):
I can disappear, live life, come back and and all
as well, and I yeah, and giveyou what I think is unique.
LaToya Tucciarone (39:00):
So last question what does this piece of
art, this piece of pop culturemean to humanity, in your
opinion?
Just wrap it up, the little bow, that's it?
Sho Baraka (39:14):
These are one of those questions you emailed
before.
What does it mean to humanity?
LaToya Tucciarone (39:20):
Or what do we learn about ourselves as?
Sho Baraka (39:22):
humans?
I think.
Well, I guess a differentquestion and I'll answer that
first.
I think you kind of gave me agood ramp when you talked about
what this album is.
It's a homage to becoming,homage to becoming, and I think,
(39:47):
all of what it means to become,to love yourself, to understand
who you are in the world, tounderstand what the world thinks
about you, to understand whatit means to advocate for other
people as well, and so I thinkthis piece of art and its
commentary on humanity itself, Ithink it's just it's it's
second to none.
When it comes on humanityitself, I think it's just it's
it's second to none.
When it comes to hip hop, Ithink yeah, um, I mean,
(40:10):
obviously there are a lot ofliterary pieces or films that
can kind of rival it, but whenit comes to hip hop albums,
especially within the last 15years, I would say like I don't
know if there are many albumsthat I would say rival not only
this album but his body of workin general, right, his general
body of work, because I see GoodKid Mad City.
I see this I see Damn.
I see those three albumsespecially, and you can even say
(40:32):
Mr Morana I see those fouralbums, as like this anthology
of work that just speaks toculture wonderfully.
And each tells its own story.
In a sense, it is like ametamorphosis, as we're talking
about Pimp a Butterfly.
I don't think we even mentionedthe name of the album.
LaToya Tucciarone (40:51):
Oh, yeah, yeah, to Pimp a Butterfly.
Sho Baraka (40:53):
So we're talking about this metamorphosis of a
young man who was unsure ofhimself, who allowed peer
pressure to kind of likecultivate and define who he is
to now come into a place wherehe's finding himself to next
album, kind of like wondering ifthis new evolution of who he is
is this.
LaToya Tucciarone (41:12):
Is it a good thing?
Is it a good thing Is?
Sho Baraka (41:14):
this who I am Like, who do I want to be after now
coming to fame, et cetera, etcetera.
Oh, now that I have fame, I'mhaving to deal with the trauma
and all of my past hurt and pain, and I'm realizing that these
things have affected the peopleI love.
And so it's a good story ofevolution and that becoming is
(41:34):
that it is becoming, and thatyou never kind of landed in one
space, like you're alwaysgrowing and I think we as
Christians know this like thisis sanctification.
We would just call it asanctification process.
How am I being sanctified?
And knowing that the gospel iscontinuing to draw me closer to
this understanding of who I amand Jesus, and to other people
and how I work, and so that ishow I would answer that.
LaToya Tucciarone (41:55):
The first question is what does it mean to
humanity?
But I think you answered it'sessentially the same thing.
I think it's.
I mean, it's essentially thesame thing.
I think it's a, like you said,it's a beautiful piece of art
that I think, as a partaker, aconsumer of it, allows me to get
(42:16):
a glimpse of this man'sbecoming, which I think gives us
freedom to become.
You know, I think I think a lotof times the things that we
listen to can, um, bring aboutquestions in ourselves that we
can start to analyze andquestion the theme of self love.
(42:37):
I mean, what person doesn'twrestle with that?
And so I think to pimp abutterfly is just another
example of something that we canenjoy and consume but that can
move us to uh be better humanbeings absolutely I think at the
end of the day.
Sho Baraka (42:55):
So I love, yeah, absolutely.
This album is amazing, umwhat's your favorite song.
LaToya Tucciarone (43:01):
What's your favorite song?
Sho Baraka (43:02):
before we go what's your favorite song?
Before we go what's yourfavorite song?
LaToya Tucciarone (43:04):
Oh my God, my favorite song.
Sho Baraka (43:06):
You said you love you.
Is that what you said?
LaToya Tucciarone (43:08):
Yeah, but I don't think that that is like I
would say the Black or theBearded.
I mean that he dropped, I meanit just drops and you're like
dang, like.
I just had the most, I think,visceralceral reaction to that.
I don't know if I could pick afavorite, because again this
reminds me of like what's goingon um.
(43:30):
Marguerite's album is anotherpiece.
That needs to be the wholething.
Sho Baraka (43:35):
You don't just pick and choose.
LaToya Tucciarone (43:36):
You listen to the whole thing, so it's hard
to pick one, because it's it's.
Is that a cop out?
No, it's not a cop out.
I was just saying that you knowjust a small little tidbit.
Sho Baraka (43:47):
There's a couple of things and, I think, the reason
why this album is also importantfor this time.
To answer your last question,to add an epilogue to your last
question is that this thingabout the song All Right and how
?
LaToya Tucciarone (44:01):
pivotal.
That song was yeah in the album.
Song was yeah in the album.
Yeah, not only the album, I'mtalking about in culture.
So during protests people weresinging this particular song.
Sho Baraka (44:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is kind of like a progeny
of, of of gosh.
LaToya Tucciarone (44:16):
What is it we shall overcome so this is like
the 60s had we shall overcomeyeah.
And the 60s had we ShallOvercome yeah.
Sho Baraka (44:23):
And the 2010s we have in the 20s we have, we Gon'
.
LaToya Tucciarone (44:28):
Be Alright, you know what I mean, right.
Sho Baraka (44:29):
And to think that that song actually was not
Kendrick's song first.
LaToya Tucciarone (44:35):
It was actually.
Sho Baraka (44:35):
Fabulous a rapper.
Fabulous Pharrell gave it tosomeone else and I am so happy
that Fabulous said no to thatsong.
Yeah, oh, wow to someone elseand I am so happy that Fabulous
said no to that song yeah, ohwow, I did not know that,
because I don't think this albumis what it is without All Right
yeah, that's awesome, well,show, thank you.
LaToya Tucciarone (44:50):
Always a good time, always have so much to
offer for people out there whohave not listened to this album,
who maybe are like I don'tlisten to hip hop or whatever
please don't be like that andgive it a try, even if you don't
like hip hop, even if you don't.
If you just appreciate music,you should listen to this album,
but show thank you so much it'sbeen a pleasure, as always.
(45:14):
Show how can the people findyou.
Sho Baraka (45:17):
Yeah, if you have intrigued them so much they're
like we need to know more, and Ihave, of course you have.
Have my time.
Have my time.
Ladies and gentlemen.
The best way is go toshowbarakacom.
That's just my website, and onthere you'll find all the
Instagrams videos.
I try to keep it updated so,like the latest things that I'm
into, love it.
(45:37):
The other thing I will say isthat I am an editorial director
at Christianity Today, so I amgo read some of my writings, but
also I am looking forthoughtful individuals out there
in the world who want to write.
LaToya Tucciarone (45:48):
There you go, you know, contribute Boom, have
your own little piece ofculture on Christianity Today.
Sho Baraka (45:55):
Yeah, we want people to write about stuff like To
Pimp a Butterfly.
LaToya Tucciarone (45:57):
Yeah, and then we want Christianity to
sponsor our podcast, and then wewant Christiana.
Sho Baraka (46:02):
Nade to sponsor our podcast.
Okay, all right, that may bepossible.
It may not be possible,probably not.
All right, well, thanks again,but that's how you need to think
, I know, right.
LaToya Tucciarone (46:08):
Right, right.
Thank you, show.
And thank you to everyone forlistening to the Human Pop
Podcast.
It's pop for humans' sake.
We'll catch you next time.
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