December 11, 2024 • 26 mins
People love to hear and listen intently to great stories. If you can craft them for your marketing initiatives, you’ll build your business faster. I discuss how to do that in this episode with my guest, Thom Van Dycke.
Thom is a business advisor for solopreneurs and small agencies and a certified StoryBrand Guide. He works to help his clients develop strategic offers that deliver huge value to their customers.
Thom was a pastor for 19 years. When you’re in that kind of role there’s a lot of storytelling already involved. In 2020 he left the ministry and started his own business after reading the book “Building a Storybrand” by Donald Miller. In the back of the book the author described how to get certified as a “Storybrand Guide”. Thom realized that the Storybrand framework is very powerful for organizing your thoughts around storytelling.
That sparked the idea: “I wonder if it’s time for a switch”. After getting certified Thom launched his business and started out as a copywriter. He fell in love with taking the genre of communication, marketing, and figuring out ways to interweave it with storytelling. Thom has been copywriting for four years and now and is starting to do more storytelling consulting work.
When it comes to storytelling and marketing, where do you begin?
Many people think storytelling is about telling their story and being autobiographical. While there is a place for that in marketing, that’s not necessarily what it means to tell your story in marketing. Storytelling in marketing really looks at what other parts of a story are and how do we can use them in our marketing strategy.
Storytelling begins with a hero who wants something and can’t get it, they have an external problem. Then frustration about that leads to internal problems for them. Then the hero meets a guide. The guide gives them a plan, paints a picture of success and failure, and calls the hero to action. The whole arc of the story is one of transformation. So, the idea is the framework for a story. The reason that is so powerful is that our brains are wired to recognize the patterns of stories. From the beginning of written communication humankind has used stories to make sense of their world. The more ancient you go, the more the stories are more supernatural in nature.
The Need for Storytelling
In modern times we’re still creating stories to explain the world around us. We are still using stories to make sense of the universe, often in scientific and naturalistic ways. It’s part of our DNA to make sense of the world that way. When Thom starts working with a client, he first makes sure they understand that concept. Then he helps them understand that when it comes to marketing, in order to be effective, you need to be extremely clear. The brain wants to find the shortest path to an understanding or meaning as possible.
When we put our marketing and messaging into a story format, we’re helping people’s brains get to the point we’re trying to make faster. It helps us land more deals and close more sales because it cuts out some of the brain’s confusion of trying to get to the point.
In this episode we also discuss:
How to get to the point quicker in your marketing strategy.
The case for making your clients to heroes of your stories instead of yourself.
The pitfalls of the least effective marketing campaigns and how to avoid them.
How to articulate your hero’s (customer’s) problems effectively and show them how you solve them.
The role of and need for compassion in marketing.
How to position yourself as the hero’s guide in your customer’s journey.
How to arrange the content on your website to create a hero’s journey.
The need for a call to action and how to create one.
How to balance explaining problems with explaining solutions in your marketing.
Two common storytelling mistakes most people make and how to avoid them.
The one thing that,
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Idea Climbing podcast.
People love to hear and listen intently to
great stories.
If you can craft them for your marketing
initiatives, you'll stand out from the crowd and
your competition.
I discuss how to do that in this
episode with my guest, Tom Van Dyke. Tom
is a business advisor for solopreneurs and small
agencies and a certified story brand guide. He
(00:21):
works to help his clients develop strategic offers
that deliver huge value to their customers.
In this episode, we dive into topics such
as how to get to the point quicker
in your marketing strategies,
2 common storytelling mistakes most people make and
how to avoid them, the one thing that,
when it comes to storytelling and marketing,
you need to do above all else, and
(00:41):
other golden nuggets of advice. You're gonna love
this show.
Thank you, Tom, for making time to do
the idea climbing podcast today. I really appreciate
it.
Hey, Mark. Thank you for having me on.
And we're gonna be talking about how do
you storytelling to stand out from the crowd.
(01:03):
But before we get into strategy, tactics, trips,
tips,
I would love to know how did you
get into it to the point where you're
helping clients do that? What's your story with
storytelling?
Yeah. Well, it's, it's an interesting story.
I think it's interesting.
I was a pastor for 19 years. And
(01:23):
so I you know, when you're in that
kind of a that kind of a role,
there's a lot of storytelling already. And in
2020,
I left ministry after 19 years and started
my own business. And, actually, I had read
this book called Building a Story Brand by
Donald Miller.
In the back of the book, it talked
about,
(01:45):
certifying as a story brand guide. And I
thought, you know, I wonder if it's time
for a switch.
And so I launched my business. I started
out as a copywriter,
and I just fell in love with taking
this new genre of communication,
marketing,
and figuring out a way to apply story
to it. So,
last 4 years, that's
(02:07):
largely what I've been doing. Now I do
more consulting work,
but it it comes up a lot. So,
it's extremely powerful. The StoryBrand framework, you know,
very, very powerful for organizing your thoughts around
story.
So when it comes to storytelling and marketing,
where do you where do you begin? How
do you get your clients started? What would
you suggest people listening and watching do? Where
(02:28):
does the whole storytelling phenomenon, if you will,
begin in the world of marketing?
Well, it's interesting because it's not
people think that it's about telling their story
like being biographical,
and there is something important about that in
marketing.
I I really believe that because,
especially when you're, you know, in a in
(02:49):
a very personal
sort of setting, like,
where you're working 1 on 1 with clients,
like coaches and that kind of thing. There,
it's good to be biographical in your marketing,
but that's not totally what it means to
use story in marketing.
Story in marketing
really looks at what is the what are
the parts of a story
and how do we use them in our
(03:09):
marketing.
So every story has 7 parts. You have
a hearer who wants something,
can't get it. They have a problem.
That makes them feel a certain way internally,
so now they have an internal problem. Then
they meet a guide. The guide gives them
a plan,
paints a picture of success or failure, and
calls them to action.
And the whole arc of the story is
(03:31):
one of transformation.
So the idea is
story, that framework, the reason it's so powerful
is that
our brains are wired to to to recognize
the patterns of stories. So if you look
out through all of human history,
basically, as far back as we have recorded
communication,
(03:51):
they humankind
has used stories to try and make sense
of their world. So, obviously, the more ancient
you go,
the more the stories are supernatural in nature
and and that kind of thing. But
come up to today in modern times, the
scientific era, we're still creating stories to try
and make to explain the universe to you
(04:12):
know, we have things like our planet,
documentaries,
all of these things. And so we are
still using story to make sense of the
universe even though it's a in a scientific
naturalistic way.
And that is very so it it's sort
of like it's a a part of our
our DNA to make sense of the world
that way, and we recognize it. So
(04:35):
when I start with a client, I make
sure they understand that.
I I help them understand that marketing, in
order to be effective,
needs to be extremely clear because the brain
wants to find the shortest path to meaning
possible.
So when we put our marketing
and messaging into a story format,
(04:55):
we're helping the brain get to the point
faster, and it helps us land more deals,
close more sales because it just cuts out
kinda some of the,
excessive brain activity that you need to use.
So how do you get to the point
quicker? What what does that look like?
Yeah. Well, here's some really here's some really
simple things.
In storytelling, there's,
(05:18):
you can only have one hero.
So, you know,
so one of the simplest things you can
do is to look at your messaging, your
website, your your marketing collateral, your social media,
and say, am I positioning myself as the
hero or my client as the hero, the
customer?
Because
everybody wakes up as the center of their
(05:38):
own universe. We do but also do or
also our clients do. Yeah. And if we
can if we can if we can get
them to under like, if we can meet
them on their terms
as the hero of their story, we're gonna
have a much better chance of actually getting
them to engage with us.
In a in a movie, when you have
more than one hero, you end up with
(05:59):
confusing plot lines like like the Marvel Universe.
I love the Marvel movies.
But once they bring all they converge into
the Avengers,
all of a sudden you have a very,
very complicated and confusing plot line.
Too many heroes. There's far too many heroes.
So in our marketing, we should have a
singular narrative
(06:21):
where our customer is the hero,
and we play the guide to their problem.
That's one of the fastest way you can
do it. So you read and you go,
like, on my website, do I talk about
myself and our company
more than I talk about
our client and their problems?
Always to talk more about your client, their
(06:41):
customer, and their problems, and you'll be naturally
positioning them as the hero as opposed to
yourself.
That's so different than what I initially would
think as far as, oh, it's the hero.
It's me. And I'm, you know, rah rah.
I'm so great at everything.
Could you unpack that a little bit more?
What is it what do you when you
say make the client the hero, how do
you make the client the hero?
(07:02):
Sure. So the least effective marketing we can
do
is to say something like, hey. I'm awesome.
Buy my product, and you'll be awesome like
me.
So
there are certain brands in the world that
can afford to do that, the big, big
brands, like, you know, the PepsiCo's and the
Coca Cola's and Nike.
But what's fascinating is even they don't do
(07:24):
that. So you take a sports brand like
an a Nike or an Adidas or something
like that. What do they do? They find
a sports,
a spokesperson
in sports.
So they look at, you know, this,
this Olympian or this basketball player or this
hockey player,
And they don't say,
we're awesome. Buy our product, and you'll be
(07:45):
awesome.
They say, look. Here's one of your heroes
in sports.
He uses our shoes. You could be just
like him if you were if you were
that. So they're still projecting the hero away
from the brand and making it about the
the other people.
A a a really simple way to do
that is instead of going straight into your
(08:07):
solutions, talk about people's problems.
As As soon as we stop talking about
people's problems, they stop listening to us anyways.
And it's very, very,
compassionate
to articulate the hero's problems.
It's very compassionate
to articulate our customers' problems
because it it means that we understand them.
(08:28):
It means that there's common ground. They lean
in when we do that. So if you're
positioning your your brand as the hero, you're
gonna be like, we've got this solution and
this solution, and we can do this for
you and we can do that for you.
Instead, why don't you say,
let's take a let's take a concrete example.
Let's take a veterinarian.
(08:48):
Okay.
Don't you isn't it,
doesn't it just mess with your emotions when
you sees when you see the animal you
love suffering?
So instead of saying,
come to us. We know how to cure
your pet. We know how to help you
how how have a healthy pet. We say,
doesn't it hurt your heart as a pet
(09:10):
owner when you see your dog suffering?
Right?
It's totally different perspective. And and people go,
yeah, but isn't that negative marketing? No. It's
not. It's compassionate. It's saying I understand how
you're feeling,
and now let's talk about how I can
guide you towards a solution.
Okay. That's a perfect segue. You you make
(09:31):
the client the hero, the potential client, whatever
it might be,
Then
you
identify a problem that gets solved. Where does
this what what does the rest of the
story look like? Because I mean it sounds
like that could happen pretty quickly. What is
the rest of the story after you've established
a hero and a problem?
Yeah. Well, then you set yourself up as
the guide.
(09:51):
So in a story, the guide is the
most powerful character. The hero is not the
character. You don't even wanna play the hero.
The hero wants something. They can't get it.
They're weak. They don't have the answers.
Yoda is more powerful than Luke. Yeah. Like,
far more powerful. Right? Dumbledore, clearly more powerful
than Harry Potter. So,
you know, the the guide is the one
(10:13):
who has the solution. So this is how
you position yourself as your as the guide
in your marketing.
You say, we understand.
We think it's just wrong that you should
have to watch while your animals suffer.
We think it's just wrong that you should
have to have a broken relationship with your
kids. We think it's just wrong that you
don't know how to cook a a decent
(10:33):
meal.
So that's empathy.
Then we come in as the authority because
a guide has 2 things. They have empathy,
and they have authority.
The authority piece now is,
look,
we're a collective of parents who've raised kids
already, so we know what it's like to
have a 13 year old.
(10:54):
Right? Or
we've we've got together a a group of
the most successful chefs
around
to put together this home cooking meal for
you so that you can cook like us.
Right? So you you you position yourself with
empathy and authority, and you need both because
you if you have all empathy
(11:15):
but you don't know what you're doing, that's
gonna fall pretty flat. On the other hand,
there's lots of people who are very authoritative
and know what they're doing,
but they have no empathy, so nobody wants
to work with them.
So even in your even in your website
a website's a nice example because it's very
linear. We we read in a linear way.
(11:35):
Mhmm. You you start with a summary
of what you do because we know that
people very many people bounce after 3 and
a half seconds. They're off your website. So
that first hero section needs to be very
clear.
Right under that, we start talking about people's
problems.
Under that, we start talking about
how we can help them get to a
(11:56):
solution.
So it's like summary,
problem
Mhmm.
And then guide. How do I position myself
as the guide to help you get to
the to the solution that you're you're dealing
you that you require?
So how does the story close, or is
the guide the closing of the story? Is
there more to it after you establish a
guide? Oh, yeah. Because,
(12:19):
because
how many stories
you'll see this in movies. The the guide
and the hero are together, and the the
guide has been training the hero.
And then the hero is like, I just
don't wanna do it, or I'm scared, or
I don't wanna take that risk. And so
what does the guide do? They say, look.
I understand you're scared, but you are the
(12:40):
only person who can do this thing. You
are the only person who can save the
princess. You are the only person who can
rescue
whoever. Right? Mhmm. So they call them to
action.
So every story needs a call to action.
And and at the call to action point,
there's there's stake. There's something that can be
(13:01):
lost and won, and that's very important.
We have to paint both the negative and
the positive
state consequences.
If there's no consequence
to not doing business with you, Mark, why
would anybody hire you?
Oh. Right? Go on. I love that.
Well, it's it's true. Like, we solve real
(13:22):
problems for real people,
so
we should be able to tell them, look.
I get it. You're struggling to connect with
your teenagers.
If you don't if you don't work on
that,
it's not gonna get better. You're gonna get
more distant.
Right? On the other hand,
if you learn to work together, if you
(13:43):
try these communication exercises, if you adopt one
meal, like eating a meal together every week,
these are this is the success you're gonna
experience.
Right?
So people, again, don't like talking about problems
and negative consequences, but I like to explain
it like this.
People are always trying to gain heaven or
(14:04):
avoid hell.
That's it. That's marketing.
They're trying to gain heaven
or avoid hell.
I like to break it up in a
30, 70 split.
70% of the time, I try to be
positive. I talk about the aspirational identity.
Look at who you can become. You can
become a parent that actually has kids who
talk to them, who don't roll their eyes
(14:26):
all the time. Well, you'll probably never solve
that, but maybe. You'll get close. Right? Yeah.
On the other hand, you have to talk
about the negative consequences as well.
There is a lot at stake.
We know,
again,
parenting, we know from research that kids who
are connected with their parents and attached in
a healthy way have x, y, zed better
(14:48):
chance of, you know, succeeding in relationships and
life. So
we position the messaging in both ways. We
try to focus more on the positive and
less on the negative, but we do have
to talk about the negative.
And it's an important it's an important thing
to realize because people are always
they have a propensity towards negativity or positivity.
(15:09):
So
all it's all we're really trying to say
is in your marketing, be balanced. You can't
always be negative. That would be a downer.
But you can't always be positive either because
that doesn't feel realistic to people. We need
to actually meet them in their problem. So
all of that happens within marketing.
All of that. And and it always the
(15:29):
the the the story, there's a turning point
at a call to action.
Act now.
Snip the red wire.
Brave the the the raging river, but act
now. Do something
because there's consequences if you don't. In marketing,
buy now.
(15:51):
Book a call.
Those kinds of calls to action are very
powerful. They're not ambiguous at all. Mhmm. And
so we need clear calls to action in
our marketing that kind of closes the story
loop a little bit,
for the for our customers, and they're like,
okay.
Now I'm in. Now I'm ready to forge
ahead towards that successful picture.
(16:14):
So
that whole chain of events needs to end
with a call to action in order for
it to be capped off.
Okay. So someone's listening. This the process makes
beautiful sense. Open to close.
What we haven't touched on too much yet,
what should you not do? What are pitfalls
to avoid when you're getting into storytelling?
(16:37):
Being cute.
We say storytelling, and people have this idea
that we're talking about writing
a novel
or we're talking about, you know,
Star Wars or poetry. No. That's all garbage.
Marketing has to be
crystal clear
crystal clear. So,
(16:58):
cute and clever never wins.
If you confuse, you'll lose. These little pithy
sayings that StoryBrand bandies about. But if you
confuse, you'll lose.
Cute and clever never wins. There's a place
for artistry,
but at the end of the day,
the the clearest message is the one that's
going to actually close the deal.
(17:18):
If there's any ambiguity,
people aren't gonna do it. So don't try
to be cute and clever. That's not what
we're talking about when we're talking about story
based marketing. That's not it.
Another one just the biggest one that we
see is positioning your brand as the hero.
Now I'm gonna I'm gonna just pause there
for a minute because
when you are a personal brand, the rules
(17:39):
are just a little bit different.
Okay? Mhmm. Because I'm a solopreneur, and I'm
a consultant.
If I want people to know to trust
me, they're gonna have to know me.
So
a lot of the marketing that I've done
in the past has been very biographical.
So what I do is I tell a
story,
(18:00):
and I love telling stories because,
because AI can never write my story for
me. So I'll tell a biographical
story. I know that they're that person the
person who's reading has never heard it before
because it's me.
And then I'll attach
a a sort of a universal truth, and
then there's a call to action under it.
(18:22):
But
but it's it's really it's really different. There's
a lot of there's a lot of strategy
that goes into what story
am I gonna tell
where the where the audience
so relates to it that they can see
themselves in my story?
And and that
that takes a certain amount of skill and
and
(18:42):
and,
well, artistry, honestly. Yeah. But that's the only
time really where you wanna do that. Like,
for example, I see plumbing companies,
I can think of a company right now,
right on the top of their website.
My granddaddy started this company back in 1932,
and we've been had business run ever since.
(19:04):
Nobody gives a rip. You know why? Because
their toilet is overflowing, and it's the middle
of the night, and they don't know who
to call.
The fact that your grandfather
started the company in 1932
matters nothing at that point. So,
you you know, go for the clarity.
This is the number you call. This is
what you do. So, those would be 2
(19:24):
big pitfalls.
Positioning yourself as the hero when you should
be positioned as the guide, and then also,
what was the other one I just said?
Also, being cute and clever. Don't be cute
and clever.
So you mentioned the buyer I'd like to
look into that a little bit more, the
the biographical story because that is you and
(19:45):
they I think people expect to hear a
little bit about that. Then the whole story
about the hero's journey and making them the
hero and what how do you know what
story to tell and when, or are they
always combined?
You know,
it's tricky. So I've written
hundreds of pages of biography
(20:05):
in in short in short story form, and
and I do literally mean 100 of pages.
And,
very often, the when you sit down with
somebody, you say, well, we should tell your
story. They go, but, Tom, I've seen how
many stories you can tell from your your
life. I don't even know where to start.
That's no problem. Let's just start with, what
do you remember from your 9th birthday? Tell
(20:25):
me a bit about it. Do you remember
when you got that big gift or you
were on a vacation? You're like, let's start
there, and then we have to think through.
What was the thing that happened in that
story that made it interesting?
Oh, well, you know, we got a we
got a flat tire, and my dad was
really stressed about it. My parents were fighting.
I remember that. That. Everyone in the world
(20:47):
can relate to that.
So now how do we apply that to
a veterinarian?
Well,
now we have to think about it. We
have to go,
where do people feel tension in their lives
surrounding their pets?
When they bark incessantly
or,
when something goes wrong. Mhmm. Or and now
(21:09):
you that's how you connect it like that.
So,
really,
it you know, when you're when you're a
personal brand, let's veterinary is not a great
example. It's better with a consultant. But let's
say you're a business consultant.
You're gonna eventually come up with these things
that you do with clients, really important lessons,
your core pillars, your, you know, your your
little statements that you say that, you know,
(21:31):
you feel
affectionate words or whatever.
You write those down on one side, and
then you brainstorm stories on the other side.
And then you just draw lines.
And you're like, yeah. That lesson, you can
learn that from that story. Let's do it.
Let's put it together.
So that's literally what I what I do
with clients sometimes is we just brainstorm stories,
(21:53):
and we put down their IP and their
ideas about what makes good,
business or life coaching or whatever it is,
and we just connect the dots.
And it's a very powerful way to do
marketing because I'm, like I'm not gonna lie.
A lot of marketing sucks pretty bad, and
it's boring.
And
(22:14):
I am immediately suspicious that it's just AI
driven anyways because it's, we're so AI saturated
right now. Mhmm.
So
what am I actually gonna say
that is so original that somebody else or
doesn't other people haven't said it before?
Very little.
But if I can capture your attention
(22:37):
with a story
about my life,
that nobody else has.
Right? And so it makes it it makes
it very unique. I I say I say
this a lot. I I this is one
of my things that I say a lot.
On the surface, if you write down what
I do and put it into Google, my
services, list them, put it into Google, you
(22:58):
will find dozens if not hundreds of people
who do exactly what I do on Uber.
Same for you, Mark. Yep. You write down
your services. You put it into Google.
We we are in saturated
workspaces.
Now what's interesting is
nobody will ever hire you and nobody will
ever hire me without meeting us first.
(23:19):
And that's really important.
Why is that so important?
Because
our USP, our unique selling proposition is not
what we sell.
It's us.
Who we are.
Who we are. It's my little bit of
a unique process, the chemistry that we feel,
the the way we laugh, you know, the
(23:40):
fact that I'm a bit of a goofball
or I'm very serious in that relate you
relate to that. Whatever it is,
our clients if your client needs to meet
you,
then a bio biographical
marketing campaign can help them get to that
point
where they go, yeah. I actually really like,
it would almost be interesting just to meet
this person. Mhmm.
(24:02):
So,
you know, it works on many levels. Story
really does work on many levels. You've got
the framework, which is a pattern that we
understand.
We have the biography that personal brands need
to lean into because we want
our audience to know us.
We have this fact that we are our
own unique selling proposition.
(24:23):
You know, it it all combines for a
bear a much more,
effective and successful
marketing campaign.
That
is I love how it all ties together
and we've covered so much ground in such
a short period of time. With everything we
spoke about, whether it's reiterating something you said,
maybe it's touching on something you haven't said.
(24:44):
If you were to say, when it comes
to storytelling for marketing,
if nothing else, do this one thing, at
least do this, what would you tell people
to do?
Okay.
If you do nothing else
To get started.
Above all, that's the most important tip.
Get Building a StoryBrand by Donald Miller,
(25:06):
the book. Excellent.
Just get it. It's a resource. You will
not be disappointed.
I I wish I could give you one
pithy little thing that will, you know I
mean, there's lots of things you can do,
but get your head wrapped around this the
the hero's journey, this framework,
because once you understand it,
(25:29):
everything else becomes easier.
Okay.
Everything else.
Thank you for the time. If people wanna
find you online, where's the best place or
places to go, Tom?
LinkedIn is probably the best place to find
me, and I would love to meet you.
And if you wanna reach out and DM,
just let me know that,
this is where you heard about me so
that I can shout back to Mark and
(25:50):
say, hey.
Thanks for having me on. I actually got
to meet some of your incredible listeners.
But just make sure that if you're looking
for me, you spell my name right because
I got a weird first spelling and a
weird last spelling.
So,
yeah. So t h o m v a
n d y c k e, Van Dyckis,
d y c k e. So I hope
(26:11):
we do connect on LinkedIn, though.
Thank you very much. I appreciate the time,
Tom.
Absolutely, Mark. Thanks for having me.
And
sing.
Thank you for joining us today. I hope
you enjoyed the episode. I also hope that
you'll subscribe to the idea climbing podcast and
rate us on itunes.
Visitideaclimbing.com
(26:32):
to learn more about idea climbing and hear
more episodes about mentoring,
marketing, and big ideas.
Welcome to the Idea Climbing podcast.
People love to hear and listen intently to
great stories.
If you can craft them for your marketing
initiatives, you'll stand out from the crowd and
your competition.
I discuss how to do that in this
episode with my guest, Tom Van Dyke. Tom
is a business advisor for solopreneurs and small
agencies and a certified story brand guide. He
(00:21):
works to help his clients develop strategic offers
that deliver huge value to their customers.
In this episode, we dive into topics such
as how to get to the point quicker
in your marketing strategies,
2 common storytelling mistakes most people make and
how to avoid them, the one thing that,
when it comes to storytelling and marketing,
you need to do above all else, and
(00:41):
other golden nuggets of advice. You're gonna love
this show.
Thank you, Tom, for making time to do
the idea climbing podcast today. I really appreciate
it.
Hey, Mark. Thank you for having me on.
And we're gonna be talking about how do
you storytelling to stand out from the crowd.
(01:03):
But before we get into strategy, tactics, trips,
tips,
I would love to know how did you
get into it to the point where you're
helping clients do that? What's your story with
storytelling?
Yeah. Well, it's, it's an interesting story.
I think it's interesting.
I was a pastor for 19 years. And
(01:23):
so I you know, when you're in that
kind of a that kind of a role,
there's a lot of storytelling already. And in
2020,
I left ministry after 19 years and started
my own business. And, actually, I had read
this book called Building a Story Brand by
Donald Miller.
In the back of the book, it talked
about,
(01:45):
certifying as a story brand guide. And I
thought, you know, I wonder if it's time
for a switch.
And so I launched my business. I started
out as a copywriter,
and I just fell in love with taking
this new genre of communication,
marketing,
and figuring out a way to apply story
to it. So,
last 4 years, that's
(02:07):
largely what I've been doing. Now I do
more consulting work,
but it it comes up a lot. So,
it's extremely powerful. The StoryBrand framework, you know,
very, very powerful for organizing your thoughts around
story.
So when it comes to storytelling and marketing,
where do you where do you begin? How
do you get your clients started? What would
you suggest people listening and watching do? Where
(02:28):
does the whole storytelling phenomenon, if you will,
begin in the world of marketing?
Well, it's interesting because it's not
people think that it's about telling their story
like being biographical,
and there is something important about that in
marketing.
I I really believe that because,
especially when you're, you know, in a in
(02:49):
a very personal
sort of setting, like,
where you're working 1 on 1 with clients,
like coaches and that kind of thing. There,
it's good to be biographical in your marketing,
but that's not totally what it means to
use story in marketing.
Story in marketing
really looks at what is the what are
the parts of a story
and how do we use them in our
(03:09):
marketing.
So every story has 7 parts. You have
a hearer who wants something,
can't get it. They have a problem.
That makes them feel a certain way internally,
so now they have an internal problem. Then
they meet a guide. The guide gives them
a plan,
paints a picture of success or failure, and
calls them to action.
And the whole arc of the story is
(03:31):
one of transformation.
So the idea is
story, that framework, the reason it's so powerful
is that
our brains are wired to to to recognize
the patterns of stories. So if you look
out through all of human history,
basically, as far back as we have recorded
communication,
(03:51):
they humankind
has used stories to try and make sense
of their world. So, obviously, the more ancient
you go,
the more the stories are supernatural in nature
and and that kind of thing. But
come up to today in modern times, the
scientific era, we're still creating stories to try
and make to explain the universe to you
(04:12):
know, we have things like our planet,
documentaries,
all of these things. And so we are
still using story to make sense of the
universe even though it's a in a scientific
naturalistic way.
And that is very so it it's sort
of like it's a a part of our
our DNA to make sense of the world
that way, and we recognize it. So
(04:35):
when I start with a client, I make
sure they understand that.
I I help them understand that marketing, in
order to be effective,
needs to be extremely clear because the brain
wants to find the shortest path to meaning
possible.
So when we put our marketing
and messaging into a story format,
(04:55):
we're helping the brain get to the point
faster, and it helps us land more deals,
close more sales because it just cuts out
kinda some of the,
excessive brain activity that you need to use.
So how do you get to the point
quicker? What what does that look like?
Yeah. Well, here's some really here's some really
simple things.
In storytelling, there's,
(05:18):
you can only have one hero.
So, you know,
so one of the simplest things you can
do is to look at your messaging, your
website, your your marketing collateral, your social media,
and say, am I positioning myself as the
hero or my client as the hero, the
customer?
Because
everybody wakes up as the center of their
(05:38):
own universe. We do but also do or
also our clients do. Yeah. And if we
can if we can if we can get
them to under like, if we can meet
them on their terms
as the hero of their story, we're gonna
have a much better chance of actually getting
them to engage with us.
In a in a movie, when you have
more than one hero, you end up with
(05:59):
confusing plot lines like like the Marvel Universe.
I love the Marvel movies.
But once they bring all they converge into
the Avengers,
all of a sudden you have a very,
very complicated and confusing plot line.
Too many heroes. There's far too many heroes.
So in our marketing, we should have a
singular narrative
(06:21):
where our customer is the hero,
and we play the guide to their problem.
That's one of the fastest way you can
do it. So you read and you go,
like, on my website, do I talk about
myself and our company
more than I talk about
our client and their problems?
Always to talk more about your client, their
(06:41):
customer, and their problems, and you'll be naturally
positioning them as the hero as opposed to
yourself.
That's so different than what I initially would
think as far as, oh, it's the hero.
It's me. And I'm, you know, rah rah.
I'm so great at everything.
Could you unpack that a little bit more?
What is it what do you when you
say make the client the hero, how do
you make the client the hero?
(07:02):
Sure. So the least effective marketing we can
do
is to say something like, hey. I'm awesome.
Buy my product, and you'll be awesome like
me.
So
there are certain brands in the world that
can afford to do that, the big, big
brands, like, you know, the PepsiCo's and the
Coca Cola's and Nike.
But what's fascinating is even they don't do
(07:24):
that. So you take a sports brand like
an a Nike or an Adidas or something
like that. What do they do? They find
a sports,
a spokesperson
in sports.
So they look at, you know, this,
this Olympian or this basketball player or this
hockey player,
And they don't say,
we're awesome. Buy our product, and you'll be
(07:45):
awesome.
They say, look. Here's one of your heroes
in sports.
He uses our shoes. You could be just
like him if you were if you were
that. So they're still projecting the hero away
from the brand and making it about the
the other people.
A a a really simple way to do
that is instead of going straight into your
(08:07):
solutions, talk about people's problems.
As As soon as we stop talking about
people's problems, they stop listening to us anyways.
And it's very, very,
compassionate
to articulate the hero's problems.
It's very compassionate
to articulate our customers' problems
because it it means that we understand them.
(08:28):
It means that there's common ground. They lean
in when we do that. So if you're
positioning your your brand as the hero, you're
gonna be like, we've got this solution and
this solution, and we can do this for
you and we can do that for you.
Instead, why don't you say,
let's take a let's take a concrete example.
Let's take a veterinarian.
(08:48):
Okay.
Don't you isn't it,
doesn't it just mess with your emotions when
you sees when you see the animal you
love suffering?
So instead of saying,
come to us. We know how to cure
your pet. We know how to help you
how how have a healthy pet. We say,
doesn't it hurt your heart as a pet
(09:10):
owner when you see your dog suffering?
Right?
It's totally different perspective. And and people go,
yeah, but isn't that negative marketing? No. It's
not. It's compassionate. It's saying I understand how
you're feeling,
and now let's talk about how I can
guide you towards a solution.
Okay. That's a perfect segue. You you make
(09:31):
the client the hero, the potential client, whatever
it might be,
Then
you
identify a problem that gets solved. Where does
this what what does the rest of the
story look like? Because I mean it sounds
like that could happen pretty quickly. What is
the rest of the story after you've established
a hero and a problem?
Yeah. Well, then you set yourself up as
the guide.
(09:51):
So in a story, the guide is the
most powerful character. The hero is not the
character. You don't even wanna play the hero.
The hero wants something. They can't get it.
They're weak. They don't have the answers.
Yoda is more powerful than Luke. Yeah. Like,
far more powerful. Right? Dumbledore, clearly more powerful
than Harry Potter. So,
you know, the the guide is the one
(10:13):
who has the solution. So this is how
you position yourself as your as the guide
in your marketing.
You say, we understand.
We think it's just wrong that you should
have to watch while your animals suffer.
We think it's just wrong that you should
have to have a broken relationship with your
kids. We think it's just wrong that you
don't know how to cook a a decent
(10:33):
meal.
So that's empathy.
Then we come in as the authority because
a guide has 2 things. They have empathy,
and they have authority.
The authority piece now is,
look,
we're a collective of parents who've raised kids
already, so we know what it's like to
have a 13 year old.
(10:54):
Right? Or
we've we've got together a a group of
the most successful chefs
around
to put together this home cooking meal for
you so that you can cook like us.
Right? So you you you position yourself with
empathy and authority, and you need both because
you if you have all empathy
(11:15):
but you don't know what you're doing, that's
gonna fall pretty flat. On the other hand,
there's lots of people who are very authoritative
and know what they're doing,
but they have no empathy, so nobody wants
to work with them.
So even in your even in your website
a website's a nice example because it's very
linear. We we read in a linear way.
(11:35):
Mhmm. You you start with a summary
of what you do because we know that
people very many people bounce after 3 and
a half seconds. They're off your website. So
that first hero section needs to be very
clear.
Right under that, we start talking about people's
problems.
Under that, we start talking about
how we can help them get to a
(11:56):
solution.
So it's like summary,
problem
Mhmm.
And then guide. How do I position myself
as the guide to help you get to
the to the solution that you're you're dealing
you that you require?
So how does the story close, or is
the guide the closing of the story? Is
there more to it after you establish a
guide? Oh, yeah. Because,
(12:19):
because
how many stories
you'll see this in movies. The the guide
and the hero are together, and the the
guide has been training the hero.
And then the hero is like, I just
don't wanna do it, or I'm scared, or
I don't wanna take that risk. And so
what does the guide do? They say, look.
I understand you're scared, but you are the
(12:40):
only person who can do this thing. You
are the only person who can save the
princess. You are the only person who can
rescue
whoever. Right? Mhmm. So they call them to
action.
So every story needs a call to action.
And and at the call to action point,
there's there's stake. There's something that can be
(13:01):
lost and won, and that's very important.
We have to paint both the negative and
the positive
state consequences.
If there's no consequence
to not doing business with you, Mark, why
would anybody hire you?
Oh. Right? Go on. I love that.
Well, it's it's true. Like, we solve real
(13:22):
problems for real people,
so
we should be able to tell them, look.
I get it. You're struggling to connect with
your teenagers.
If you don't if you don't work on
that,
it's not gonna get better. You're gonna get
more distant.
Right? On the other hand,
if you learn to work together, if you
(13:43):
try these communication exercises, if you adopt one
meal, like eating a meal together every week,
these are this is the success you're gonna
experience.
Right?
So people, again, don't like talking about problems
and negative consequences, but I like to explain
it like this.
People are always trying to gain heaven or
(14:04):
avoid hell.
That's it. That's marketing.
They're trying to gain heaven
or avoid hell.
I like to break it up in a
30, 70 split.
70% of the time, I try to be
positive. I talk about the aspirational identity.
Look at who you can become. You can
become a parent that actually has kids who
talk to them, who don't roll their eyes
(14:26):
all the time. Well, you'll probably never solve
that, but maybe. You'll get close. Right? Yeah.
On the other hand, you have to talk
about the negative consequences as well.
There is a lot at stake.
We know,
again,
parenting, we know from research that kids who
are connected with their parents and attached in
a healthy way have x, y, zed better
(14:48):
chance of, you know, succeeding in relationships and
life. So
we position the messaging in both ways. We
try to focus more on the positive and
less on the negative, but we do have
to talk about the negative.
And it's an important it's an important thing
to realize because people are always
they have a propensity towards negativity or positivity.
(15:09):
So
all it's all we're really trying to say
is in your marketing, be balanced. You can't
always be negative. That would be a downer.
But you can't always be positive either because
that doesn't feel realistic to people. We need
to actually meet them in their problem. So
all of that happens within marketing.
All of that. And and it always the
(15:29):
the the the story, there's a turning point
at a call to action.
Act now.
Snip the red wire.
Brave the the the raging river, but act
now. Do something
because there's consequences if you don't. In marketing,
buy now.
(15:51):
Book a call.
Those kinds of calls to action are very
powerful. They're not ambiguous at all. Mhmm. And
so we need clear calls to action in
our marketing that kind of closes the story
loop a little bit,
for the for our customers, and they're like,
okay.
Now I'm in. Now I'm ready to forge
ahead towards that successful picture.
(16:14):
So
that whole chain of events needs to end
with a call to action in order for
it to be capped off.
Okay. So someone's listening. This the process makes
beautiful sense. Open to close.
What we haven't touched on too much yet,
what should you not do? What are pitfalls
to avoid when you're getting into storytelling?
(16:37):
Being cute.
We say storytelling, and people have this idea
that we're talking about writing
a novel
or we're talking about, you know,
Star Wars or poetry. No. That's all garbage.
Marketing has to be
crystal clear
crystal clear. So,
(16:58):
cute and clever never wins.
If you confuse, you'll lose. These little pithy
sayings that StoryBrand bandies about. But if you
confuse, you'll lose.
Cute and clever never wins. There's a place
for artistry,
but at the end of the day,
the the clearest message is the one that's
going to actually close the deal.
(17:18):
If there's any ambiguity,
people aren't gonna do it. So don't try
to be cute and clever. That's not what
we're talking about when we're talking about story
based marketing. That's not it.
Another one just the biggest one that we
see is positioning your brand as the hero.
Now I'm gonna I'm gonna just pause there
for a minute because
when you are a personal brand, the rules
(17:39):
are just a little bit different.
Okay? Mhmm. Because I'm a solopreneur, and I'm
a consultant.
If I want people to know to trust
me, they're gonna have to know me.
So
a lot of the marketing that I've done
in the past has been very biographical.
So what I do is I tell a
story,
(18:00):
and I love telling stories because,
because AI can never write my story for
me. So I'll tell a biographical
story. I know that they're that person the
person who's reading has never heard it before
because it's me.
And then I'll attach
a a sort of a universal truth, and
then there's a call to action under it.
(18:22):
But
but it's it's really it's really different. There's
a lot of there's a lot of strategy
that goes into what story
am I gonna tell
where the where the audience
so relates to it that they can see
themselves in my story?
And and that
that takes a certain amount of skill and
and
(18:42):
and,
well, artistry, honestly. Yeah. But that's the only
time really where you wanna do that. Like,
for example, I see plumbing companies,
I can think of a company right now,
right on the top of their website.
My granddaddy started this company back in 1932,
and we've been had business run ever since.
(19:04):
Nobody gives a rip. You know why? Because
their toilet is overflowing, and it's the middle
of the night, and they don't know who
to call.
The fact that your grandfather
started the company in 1932
matters nothing at that point. So,
you you know, go for the clarity.
This is the number you call. This is
what you do. So, those would be 2
(19:24):
big pitfalls.
Positioning yourself as the hero when you should
be positioned as the guide, and then also,
what was the other one I just said?
Also, being cute and clever. Don't be cute
and clever.
So you mentioned the buyer I'd like to
look into that a little bit more, the
the biographical story because that is you and
(19:45):
they I think people expect to hear a
little bit about that. Then the whole story
about the hero's journey and making them the
hero and what how do you know what
story to tell and when, or are they
always combined?
You know,
it's tricky. So I've written
hundreds of pages of biography
(20:05):
in in short in short story form, and
and I do literally mean 100 of pages.
And,
very often, the when you sit down with
somebody, you say, well, we should tell your
story. They go, but, Tom, I've seen how
many stories you can tell from your your
life. I don't even know where to start.
That's no problem. Let's just start with, what
do you remember from your 9th birthday? Tell
(20:25):
me a bit about it. Do you remember
when you got that big gift or you
were on a vacation? You're like, let's start
there, and then we have to think through.
What was the thing that happened in that
story that made it interesting?
Oh, well, you know, we got a we
got a flat tire, and my dad was
really stressed about it. My parents were fighting.
I remember that. That. Everyone in the world
(20:47):
can relate to that.
So now how do we apply that to
a veterinarian?
Well,
now we have to think about it. We
have to go,
where do people feel tension in their lives
surrounding their pets?
When they bark incessantly
or,
when something goes wrong. Mhmm. Or and now
(21:09):
you that's how you connect it like that.
So,
really,
it you know, when you're when you're a
personal brand, let's veterinary is not a great
example. It's better with a consultant. But let's
say you're a business consultant.
You're gonna eventually come up with these things
that you do with clients, really important lessons,
your core pillars, your, you know, your your
little statements that you say that, you know,
(21:31):
you feel
affectionate words or whatever.
You write those down on one side, and
then you brainstorm stories on the other side.
And then you just draw lines.
And you're like, yeah. That lesson, you can
learn that from that story. Let's do it.
Let's put it together.
So that's literally what I what I do
with clients sometimes is we just brainstorm stories,
(21:53):
and we put down their IP and their
ideas about what makes good,
business or life coaching or whatever it is,
and we just connect the dots.
And it's a very powerful way to do
marketing because I'm, like I'm not gonna lie.
A lot of marketing sucks pretty bad, and
it's boring.
And
(22:14):
I am immediately suspicious that it's just AI
driven anyways because it's, we're so AI saturated
right now. Mhmm.
So
what am I actually gonna say
that is so original that somebody else or
doesn't other people haven't said it before?
Very little.
But if I can capture your attention
(22:37):
with a story
about my life,
that nobody else has.
Right? And so it makes it it makes
it very unique. I I say I say
this a lot. I I this is one
of my things that I say a lot.
On the surface, if you write down what
I do and put it into Google, my
services, list them, put it into Google, you
(22:58):
will find dozens if not hundreds of people
who do exactly what I do on Uber.
Same for you, Mark. Yep. You write down
your services. You put it into Google.
We we are in saturated
workspaces.
Now what's interesting is
nobody will ever hire you and nobody will
ever hire me without meeting us first.
(23:19):
And that's really important.
Why is that so important?
Because
our USP, our unique selling proposition is not
what we sell.
It's us.
Who we are.
Who we are. It's my little bit of
a unique process, the chemistry that we feel,
the the way we laugh, you know, the
(23:40):
fact that I'm a bit of a goofball
or I'm very serious in that relate you
relate to that. Whatever it is,
our clients if your client needs to meet
you,
then a bio biographical
marketing campaign can help them get to that
point
where they go, yeah. I actually really like,
it would almost be interesting just to meet
this person. Mhmm.
(24:02):
So,
you know, it works on many levels. Story
really does work on many levels. You've got
the framework, which is a pattern that we
understand.
We have the biography that personal brands need
to lean into because we want
our audience to know us.
We have this fact that we are our
own unique selling proposition.
(24:23):
You know, it it all combines for a
bear a much more,
effective and successful
marketing campaign.
That
is I love how it all ties together
and we've covered so much ground in such
a short period of time. With everything we
spoke about, whether it's reiterating something you said,
maybe it's touching on something you haven't said.
(24:44):
If you were to say, when it comes
to storytelling for marketing,
if nothing else, do this one thing, at
least do this, what would you tell people
to do?
Okay.
If you do nothing else
To get started.
Above all, that's the most important tip.
Get Building a StoryBrand by Donald Miller,
(25:06):
the book. Excellent.
Just get it. It's a resource. You will
not be disappointed.
I I wish I could give you one
pithy little thing that will, you know I
mean, there's lots of things you can do,
but get your head wrapped around this the
the hero's journey, this framework,
because once you understand it,
(25:29):
everything else becomes easier.
Okay.
Everything else.
Thank you for the time. If people wanna
find you online, where's the best place or
places to go, Tom?
LinkedIn is probably the best place to find
me, and I would love to meet you.
And if you wanna reach out and DM,
just let me know that,
this is where you heard about me so
that I can shout back to Mark and
(25:50):
say, hey.
Thanks for having me on. I actually got
to meet some of your incredible listeners.
But just make sure that if you're looking
for me, you spell my name right because
I got a weird first spelling and a
weird last spelling.
So,
yeah. So t h o m v a
n d y c k e, Van Dyckis,
d y c k e. So I hope
(26:11):
we do connect on LinkedIn, though.
Thank you very much. I appreciate the time,
Tom.
Absolutely, Mark. Thanks for having me.
And
sing.
Thank you for joining us today. I hope
you enjoyed the episode. I also hope that
you'll subscribe to the idea climbing podcast and
rate us on itunes.
Visitideaclimbing.com
(26:32):
to learn more about idea climbing and hear
more episodes about mentoring,
marketing, and big ideas.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.