July 25, 2023 • 54 mins
Today’s guest is David Jenyns, author of SYSTEMology that helps business owners create time, reduce errors and scale profits. How? With proven business systems that identify your blind spot in your business. David sheds light on what is needed to scale your business, lessons he learned the hard way, and why you need to have systems to get out of your own way. He acknowledges legendary leaders like Michael E. Gerber, Tony Robbins, and Jim Rohn. We discussed what ethical delimmas he foresees in 2030 and he shared deep fakes. If you are wondering what that means, then you should definitely listen to the show. We hope you enjoy the show by leaving us a comment, sharing with your friends, or downloading all our shows. We hope you enjoy this week's episode of The Intern Whisperer. The Intern Whisperer Podcast is brought to you by Employers 4 Change - Increasing diversity through #Skills based #DiversityEquityInclusion #recruitment and #management for #interns and #employees alike. Apply today to be an #Employer4Change that invests in #intern #talent and #employees. Want a break? Play Intern Pursuit Game on Steam. Thank you to our sponsor Cat 5 Studios. Podbean: https://internwhisperer.podbean.com YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8c_T19-pyfghVuAEbOMmHg Follow us on our social channels Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/employers4change Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/employers4change Twitter: https://twitter.com/employer4change LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/employers4change
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:11):
Hi, my name is Isabella Johnston,the founder of Employers4Change
and the Intern Whisperer Podcast.
Today's tip of the week continuesour discussion about unconscious
bias, which is also known as.
Implicit bias.
There are many types of unconscious bias.
Some of the most common are biases inhow individuals regard their own thought
(00:32):
processes and reasoning abilities, suchas when they focus on negative qualities
of individuals that align with one'sexisting attitudes, like a confirmation
of the bias and an affirmation.
Other unconscious biases are directlyrelated to how other people may look.
These types of biases tend torely on stereotypes and can result
(00:56):
in discriminatory practices.
When people are not treated likeindividuals like racism, ageism, and
beauty, there are also unconsciousbiases that stereotype people based on
how they behave, even though these typesof biases aren't commonly talked about.
Holding these biases can resultin discriminating against people
(01:18):
based on their personalities.
So, hi, today's guest is David Jenyns.
Did I say it right?
Thank you.
Yeah, pretty close.
Oh, you'll educate me.
So what is it?
All right.
It's Jenyns Jenyns, David Jenyns.
He's the founder of System Hub andjoining us from Melbourne, Australia.
We have a big time gaphere for our listeners.
(01:41):
He has over 20 yearsof business experience.
He's an entrepreneur and he's also hada journey that started in his early
twenties when he was selling a company.
Melbourne cricket ground, which I'm gonnaguess he's gonna tell us more about that.
That's a sports team into and turnthat into other endeavors that
allowed him to create systemologywith a mission to free all business
(02:05):
owners worldwide from the dailyoperations of running their business.
So Dave, welcome to the show.
A pleasure.
Thanks for having me as Villa.
Yeah.
And I'm gonna go give alittle shout out for you.
So how he got to the show is because hereached out on LinkedIn, the power of
LinkedIn, and he knew something about me.
He knew that I had listedthat I was in Asana.
(02:28):
He knew that I was ahead of a company andI went, okay, he's done some research.
That's helpful.
And then he mentioned his book.
And part of what my porn is, is systems.
I love anything that'sabout processes and systems.
And he told me about his book and Isaid, okay, go ahead and send it to me.
And I started readingit and it was amazing.
And so we're gonna talk about your bookin a little bit, but I usually kick off
(02:50):
the show by what are five words thatdescribe you and why those five words?
Hmm.
Five words.
I'd say driven, creative.
Process driven, persistent, and fun.
And the last one, I say fun.
I'd like to think I'm fun.
, but I don't know, I, , sometimesI think if I ask my team that
they'd, they'd say I'm not so fun.
(03:12):
But, , , yeah, a little bit of, , eachone of those kind of makes me who I am.
I think that a person that iscreative has to be part fun.
I don't think that you can do one withoutthe other, so I'm gonna say, yes, you are.
And I also saw this picture of youwearing a tie and glasses and it
was looking like, you know, you weredressed up a little bit in a costume a
(03:32):
little bit because it was a book coverand it looks like you do have fun.
So I agree.
Perfect.
Yes.
Just we recently did a photo shoot forour YouTube channel, and I'm dressing
up like Harry Potter and holding all ofthese weird props and things like that.
And, , yeah, I, I sometimeslook a little bit ridiculous.
, you know, that's part of being fun, right?
(03:53):
So why driven?
Why did you choose that word?
I.
Look, I think, , you know, thatkind of maybe relates a little
bit to the idea of, , persistent.
, when I was growing up, our family, , youknow, money was always a challenge and
things were tight and I kind of decidedearly on, Hey, that's an a warning for me
(04:15):
and I want to kind of move away from that.
And I became very driven, kind of just.
Trying to get myself out of thatsituation, and that's always been really
kind of driving me into business andgetting things done and making progress.
Yeah, I think anybody that's anentrepreneur always needs to pay attention
(04:36):
to the processes right from the beginning.
And so I know I'm gonna beasking you questions built
around entrepreneurship for sure.
And how vital processes are tobeing able to get stuff done.
So creative and fun, they gotogether hand in hand, I think.
But why'd you pick those?
Feel like, , as a businessowner, your business?
(04:59):
Really is a creative endeavorbecause you are creating it the
way that you would like it to be.
And oftentimes the business owner willimagine something in their head of the way
they think the business should be, or theproblem that they're going to solve, or
the client that they're going to serve.
And then they.
Go to work on it.
And there's that real creative processand, and business oftentimes reflects
(05:23):
a lot about the business owner.
, so yeah, I, I think I love to bringthat creativity out and showcase it in
the, the work that we do is business.
Oftentimes it's really obvious in themarketing department, like that's a
really obviously creative area, butreally I think that creativity shows
up in all parts of the business.
Mm-hmm.
I agree.
(05:43):
Yep.
And process driven, persistent.
I bet those two go together.
, Yes, so the process driven, my dadwas a systems engineer and he came
up with this little system for mybrother and I when I was quite young,
called the Sheet where basically wecould earn points throughout the week.
So, By doing different activities.
(06:05):
It was like he was trying to gamifylife and at the end of the week you
would add up all of the points andthen that would equal the, , pocket
money that we would get for the week.
So systems has kind of been, you know,embedded into my way of being since day
dot, and it, it's just natural for meto think that way, which is sometimes.
It feels a little bit juxtapositionfor many people cuz , they think,
(06:29):
ah, process removes creativity.
Whereas I kind of feelthe opposite is true.
I feel process allows you to get thethings handled that need to be handled
and done to a certain standard andconsistently, and that creates the space,
which then allows you to be more creative.
Hmm.
I had agree.
(06:49):
I definitely would agree because,, processes give you bra boundaries, right.
And everybody needs those.
And that way you know how faryou can stretch the boundaries.
That's what I hear you saying.
So that makes sense to me.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
So where did you get started?
What was your career journey?
You can start from college.
Some people have started as early astheir paper route that they did when they
(07:12):
were in middle school, , and the industryand how you got to where you are now.
Because I'd like to know moreabout what Cricket is and what
is the Melbourne cricket ground.
It is.
Well, I explained a littlebit how I was kind of,
Driven, , just from my upbringing.
And then when I got to the end of myfinal year of schooling, everybody was
deciding if they're gonna go to universityand what are they gonna do afterwards.
(07:36):
And I thought, look, I just want toget out there and get stuck into it.
So a lot of my friends did go off anddid uni and then I just started a,
a business and started looking foropportunities and thinking, you know,
how can I make a name for myself?
And I just read a book called The One.
Sorry, the one minute millionaire.
And it, it told, it's a good book.
(07:59):
It, and I, it told the storyof a guy called Paul Hartunian
who sold the Brooklyn Bridge.
And what happened was they were doing somerenovations on the Brooklyn Bridge and he
got his hands on a lot of the discardedwood, chopped it up into pieces, and
then wrote a press release and, , sharedit around that Brooklyn, , , New Jersey
man sells the Brooklyn Bridge for 1995.
(08:21):
And I just read this story and I drovepast the Melbourne Cricket Ground.
And for those of you who don't knowbeing Australian, , we're a little
bit sporting mad and we have athing called Aussie Rules Football.
And the MCG is effectively, , It'skinda like the Church of Sport here in
Australia, so it's, it's hallowed ground.
(08:42):
It's really precious.
Now I'm driving past the MCG and there'sa big gaping hole in the side of it.
, because they were doing some renovationson the Melbourne cricket ground,
and then it was like fireworks wentoff in my brain and I thought, I'm
going to get my hands on a bunchof the discarded wood and carpet.
And basically I replicated whatPaul Hartoonian did, but here in
(09:03):
Australia, and I got the wood andchopped it up into little pieces.
And, , I'm not sure if for those,looking at the video, you'll see this.
I'm holding up a piece of the wood.
I, I cut it into a tiny little slither,stuck it to some certificate paper.
And, , wrote the press release.
Melbourne Man sells the MCG for $24.95.
And then that was my first little,, endeavor into the entrepreneurial world.
(09:28):
And I got mobbed by the media fora good number of months after that
on, , TV and radio and in newspaper.
Where they were telling this storyabout this, , , 18 year old who
had, , basically sold the MCG.
So that was really kind of my,my first start into business.
So I'm, I'm curious how much moneydid you make from that, because
(09:49):
that sounds like genius, honestly.
Yeah, look, , it was hardly any moneydown cuz it was all discarded and I got it
from the demolition store and then most ofthe labor was just, , me and the family.
And then, look, I probably sold, I.
Close to about a hundred grand's worth.
, which, you know, as a, a youngman, that was a- a great start.
(10:09):
That's a l-lot of money in my career.
And I still have a big pile of thatwood sitting in my mom's garage.
Mm.
Yeah.
And there's gonna be a place youcan pass that on to your kids and
they, there's gonna be anothergeneration that wants to have that,
that piece of history in their hand.
Right.
For sure.
Oh my gosh.
That is, that is brilliant.
It's kind of like when peoplesold, , pet Rocks, you know?
(10:32):
Yes.
Yep.
Who, who thought of that?
Like just a rock inside of a box.
But yet, you know, there's peoplethat buy stuff like that too, right?
Mm-hmm.
Yours has more history toit, so I think it's relevant.
Yeah, it's, it definitely,I love telling that, sorry.
It was the springboard, like, after thatI tried a bunch of different things.
I opened a rock and roll clothingmusic store where we tried to
(10:54):
model what hot topic did in theUS and bring it to Australia.
, I was in the stock market education space.
We tried importing products.
I did the info product business, didlots of things until I finally landed.
It landed in my last business,which was the, , digital agency.
And that was kind of, I was in therefor 10 years, had the business for
(11:14):
13 years, and that was really where alot of my thinking around systems and
processes and how to grow somethingwithout me really got formalized.
So, Hmm.
So the name of the company then,I mean, it's, it's also brilliant
because it's about systems.
I mean, it couldn't, there's no doubtingwhat the book is about, honestly.
(11:36):
So, , but why did you addthe ol systemology onto it?
Yeah, so at the end of the digital agencywhen I'd systemized it, took some time
out, had the kind of birth of my child.
I had some time out for a year and I wasthinking, well, what am I gonna do next?
And I was thinking about how Iremoved myself and systems, and I
(11:57):
thought, look, this whole idea ofbusiness process for small business
is such an under-addressed area.
And poorly addressed.
So I thought this is a problem Iwanted to solve and I was chatting
with some colleagues we're throwingaround some names and we wanted
something that was really brandable,something that kind of says what it.
(12:19):
Does, but it's, it's enough of a brandthat can stick and we can have fun with,
like, we license out the material toother business coaches and consultants
and they're called Systemologies.
So we have fun with that.
And , so I just felt like itwas, , yeah, a very brandable.
Term.
Yeah.
, and something that I thought,Hey, this could be the book title.
(12:41):
It could be the business name.
It could really be justthe central of everything.
And it, it clicked and then I went onthe next step, which was to try and
find out, well, who had the domainname and could I buy it off them?
And I ended up, , once I securedit, I, I thought, yep, this is,
I'm going all in on this brand.
Yeah.
I like it quite a, quite a bit.
So what is, where'd you go to school then?
(13:04):
Did you go to college?
Didn't end up going to college.
I went to a school called MelbourneHigh School and it was a select entry
school, and I like was surrounded by, I.
The best of the best in Melbourne.
They traveled from all over Melbourneto go to this particular school and
everybody got incredibly high, , likeATAR scores when you get to the end, like
(13:27):
basically the scoring and they're allgoing off to the prestigious universities
and there's a little bit of pressure todo that, but I kind of, that's when I
started zigging, when others were zagging.
And I thought, that's smart though.
Honestly, I just.
Yeah.
Do you think collegeis meant for everybody?
I don't.
And I was an educator, soI don't, yeah, definitely.
(13:49):
, not for everybody.
For some people it makesperfect sense and for others.
They'll choose a different path.
There's, you know, from a businessowner perspective, there's plenty of
business owners really that just go outand learn by the school of hard knocks.
Mm-hmm.
Like starting a real world bricksand mortar business, the rock and
roll clothing music store, and havingstaff and the expense of, you know,
(14:13):
running the store and, , you know,the lease that we had and inventory
and like, I just learned so much more.
In the rag trade than I could have everimagined learning, doing a university
course, cuz some of those lessonsyou just can't learn without doing.
No, you really can't.
And I know that you mentioned that,but I always find it interesting.
(14:35):
I live vicariously through people inother countries and we may not always know
like, well, what is that like over there?
, I've had quite a few people thatI've worked with from other countries
and not everybody goes to school.
And like I said, and I don't think that,, I don't think people will be going to
college in the future either, exceptunless you're getting a license or some
(14:55):
type of a certificate specific, like, youknow, doctors, lawyers, things like that.
I think that the route that youdid was very good because you made
a lot of money and then you alsodidn't spend money on your education.
So I think you're brilliant,honestly, the way you chose.
So what did tell us about the book More?
(15:16):
Yeah.
One thing I'll just mention on thatalso, , like I'm naturally curious,
a self-starter and a self learner.
So while I might not havegone to traditional education,
I still educated myself.
Oh yeah, yeah.
, and like that, all of that has formeda, a solid foundation for the businesses
that we've grown and, and yeah.
Where Systemology is today.
(15:38):
So, I mean, it all started with the book.
I.
Left.
, what happened with the digital agency?
, I took some time off when I found wewere pregnant and had a CEO at the time.
She ended up running that business forthree years because I found after I took
a brace with the kids, that I kind oflost the passion for the digital agency,
(15:59):
so I didn't want to step back into it.
And Melissa started running thatand she ran it quite well for a
few years until, , she's actually.
, US born but was living inAustralia and she had to fly
home for some family reasons.
And then we ended up selling, , thedigital agency at that point cuz
I didn't wanna step back into it.
And that then all of those lessonsI kind of rolled up into Systemology
(16:24):
and the path that I took to removemyself outta the operations.
And I was, you know, inspired bybooks like The Emith by Michael E.
Gerber.
And traction by Gino Wickman.
And I thought, you know, they all talkabout systems and processes and they get
you excited and pumped up about them, butthey don't really tell you the how to.
So Systemology, I wanted it to be,, effectively like the implementation
(16:47):
guide or the how to guide for the e-myth.
How do you identify your critical systems?
How do you.
Extract what is currently happening,best practice and my methodology,
it's different from other processimprovement methodologies like Lean
and Six Sigma, which focus heavilyon, well, you already have a process
(17:08):
and you are looking to improve it.
Whereas Systemology is actually thestep before you haven't yet really
codified what your way is, andas a small business, you haven't.
Made it consistent.
So Systemology is about finding,well, here's how we do things.
Let's bring everybody up to that standard.
(17:29):
Because for a lot of business owners,that creates an incredible win just by
getting a level of consistency where mostsmall businesses, they're only consistent
if the business owner is doing the work.
Mm-hmm.
And, and that's the biggest, , challengethat I try and address with the book.
So you mentioned, , Michael Gerber.
I'm a big fan of Emith, also.
Emith Revisited all of themyths that he has written.
(17:51):
Emith, , super, super good book.
And also the other book too.
You know, you mentionedboth of those authors.
I, I know them.
And when you were talking aboutthat in your book, , you also
addressed the four stages of Bisto.
Business systemology and youbroke it down into survival,
stationary, scalable, and saleable.
(18:12):
And I like that type of, , takeoff ofthe Maslow's theory, honestly, yes.
Of how you could, , actuallyvisualize what that would look
like in the growth of your company.
So you wanna talk about that a littlebit more too, because I, I truly
appreciate the value that you related itto something that people can see easily.
Yeah, I think to figure out what your nextstep is when it comes to systemizing your
(18:37):
business, you have to figure out whereyou are and where you want to get to.
So this idea of, you know, the fourstages of business systemization is to
go, oh, I'm here and I want to get there.
And also at each stage, what you haveto focus on to move through to the
next level is slightly different.
And you can't jump from level onesurvival and go straight to saleable.
(18:58):
You kind of have tomove through the stages.
So the first stage is, , survival,and that's really where
most business owners start.
They are very much the bottleneck inthe business that oftentimes they don't
even realize they're the bottleneck.
A lot of things just depend on them.
If they've got a small team aroundthem, they don't really like process.
They kind of make things up as they go.
Like everything's bespoke for everycustomer that's coming through.
(19:22):
, and to move through to the next stageup, which is what I call stationary, the
business owner is least has recognizedthat, , they are that bottleneck.
And at this point, 9 times outta10, you might have a way of doing
things, but it's actually trappedinside the heads of the team members.
(19:44):
Mm-hmm.
So that's why you're stationary atthat point, because if something
happens to them, if they can't showup to work, whether that's, you
know, Sally in accounts who issuesout the invoice and if she's off
sick, no invoices get issued out.
Or if it's the business ownerwho handles all of the incoming
inquiries and leads, and if they'renot there, we're not making a sale.
(20:04):
So it's kind of like you have a way,but you are stuck because it, it's
stuck in the heads of those members.
And that's what thatstationary phase is about.
Once you're gonna move up to thenext level, , which is scalable.
Scalable is where you havesome systems and processes,
but it's very patchy and maybe.
(20:27):
You've got some systems in yourfinance department, but you've got no
systems in your marketing department.
And oftentimes it has to dowith, , where certain strengths
of particular team members are.
And oftentimes with the businessowner, you might become very heavily
reliant on the business owner, andthat's why it's not documented or
(20:47):
it's hard to get it out of their head.
So that scalable stage.
Everything's a little bit patchy.
Not only the documentation, butthe tools that you are using.
It's a bit clunky.
It feels a little bit like it's aFrankenstein machine that's put together.
And , probably the biggest telltalesign is you constantly need to
remind your team to follow process.
(21:09):
And that's the biggest distinction betweenthat and the top level, that that saleable
stage, which is when you're in saleable.
And the goal isn't necessarily tosell, but rather to build a business
that someone would want to buy becausethose businesses run more efficiently
and there's a way of doing things.
But you can tell when you're inthat top stage when people say,
(21:32):
this is how we do things here.
And new team members come on boardand the old team members teach
them and show them what's done.
And almost like from day dot, the personis indoctrinated that we have a way of
doing things and we're process drivenand this is how we do things here.
And, and that level, you don't have toremind your team at that point, like cuz
(21:55):
at the start, those first few stages,it's a slog to build a systems culture.
Yeah.
But once you've built a systemsculture, , really, I mean, it's a
slog to change any form of culture.
Mm-hmm.
But once you get on the otherside of that, , that's, that's
when you reap the biggest rewardsfrom going through these stages.
Mm-hmm.
So I feel like where I am is I'm not insaleable because I, even though I'm a
(22:19):
process person, I'm a single founder, soI'm really looking forward to like, what.
Obviously advice you would've to say, soI'm having to wear many hats like an e
Emith had talked about, and so sometimesI wear the sales hat and sometimes I
wear the investment hat and sometimesI'm wearing, okay, I, I'm an HR product.
(22:39):
I have to go and do these things, youknow, recruit and interview and assess and
be able to send people out to employers.
I've got processes, but man, it isjust, It is so hard to be able to just
allocate enough time for all of thatwhen you're a sole founder and you don't
have somebody else to share that with.
(23:01):
So I'm interested into whatsuggestions do you have for
somebody that would be like myself?
I.
Mm.
It's good that we mentioned this becausethe, when I first wrote Systemology,
I wrote it for the business ownerthat has a small team around them.
Mm-hmm.
So some of the steps that I mentionedthere in the book really only
work if you've got a small team.
(23:23):
Mm-hmm.
Now that doesn't mean systemologycan't work for you if you are
solo, but it means that you mighthave to make some adjustments.
So, for example, stepnumber two talks about.
Well, after you've identified the coresystems, think about who on your team
knows how to do that particular task.
Mm-hmm.
And then step number three is weextract it out of their head and
maybe we introduce, you know, adocumenter or a systems champion to
(23:46):
kind of make that process easier.
But when it's just you and it'sjust the business owner, you,
you don't get that benefit.
And not only that, by over documentingsomething early on when it's just you, you
don't really get much leverage from that.
Because you are still theone actually following it.
So there's this really fine linethat you have to tread between over
(24:08):
documentation and enough documentation.
So you'd probably lean more to,you know, some checklists and more
high level process to start with.
And.
Probably the first stepping stonecuz I do quite a bit of work with,
, coaches and consultants, , with oursystemologies cuz I try and help them
grow their business and I want them tobe the best example of what they teach.
(24:29):
So we try and give them a pathway to helpgrow beyond just being the consultant.
And I think one of the first hiresthat really helps is some sort of
virtual assistant, , potentially.
You know, maybe even out of an emergingeconomy, , where you get really good
bang for your buck and you start off byrecording yourself doing parts of your
(24:54):
day-to-day tasks, and you carve off,it's a little bit counterintuitive,
but you actually want to carveoff all the easiest stuff first.
So it's.
, administrative tasks, it's right.
Booking calendar appointments,it's chasing up invoices.
It's anything where you are not a,you are not adding any unique magic.
(25:17):
Mm-hmm.
And you, you slowly startcarving off some of those tasks
and delegating to an assistant.
They might start off by watchingfive videos of you doing this task.
Here's how I schedule thiscalendar appointment, or
here's how I run my podcast.
And they'll, you get them to watchthe videos and then you say, right
(25:37):
now I want you to, , create a, aprocess based on what you watch.
And then at the end you can have adiscussion as to whether or not they
feel comfortable to take it over.
So one story I'll relate, , is.
One of our systemologies, DanLenny, he's a, , videographer.
, and he coaches videographers tobuild, , their videography business.
And when he started in that coachingbusiness again, it was just him.
(26:00):
He went through that processthat I was talking about.
One of his marketing strategieswas to run a podcast.
So he was booking the podcast,scheduling the podcast, running
the podcast, editing, uploading itinto, , , iTunes, syndicating it
across, , LinkedIn and other social media.
, and he worked, that was the first thingthat he worked with his VA to work on.
(26:22):
She, she followed him, mirrored him.
He recorded a bunch of videos.
First off though, he, he.
It took about Three to Six months torecord himself doing all of these things.
Saved it in a Google Drive folder andjust collected this big collection.
Then he hired the VA and said, here'sa bunch of videos that I've recorded on
the tasks that I'm doing, and I want youto work with me to create the process
(26:44):
around that and start to take off pieces.
So it sounds like you are actuallyquite close cuz you, you like
process and you've got some process.
Probably that next step foryou is really thinking about.
How do you then, you know, in a costeffective manner, get another team
member on to start carving out some ofthose tasks, which then creates space
(27:08):
for you to work on higher value tasks?
Mm, yeah, for sure.
Some of that is, , related to raisingmoney for me, , raising investment money.
And so I'm always stuck between,okay, I can either fundraise.
Or I can focus on sales.
If I focus on sales, then youknow, the money will come in.
(27:29):
It's just a matter of, , makingsure that I stay very focused.
So my advisor had said, focus isthe only word you pay attention to.
The next word is execute.
So it sounds like you'retelling me this thing though.
Yeah, obviously.
I, I, it's almost like, , , whatwe try and do is we.
We identify the critical thingsin your business that must happen.
(27:51):
So you might go, it's fundraisingor you might say it's sales.
So let's say you, you picked oneor the other, , to start with
cuz you have to start somewhere.
Mm-hmm.
Then you tried really drill into,well what are the activities
in that that are essential?
And then which parts of thosemight we create a system.
So we look for essential,repeatable, and delegatable.
(28:12):
Yeah.
And if we can identify those, youmight go, well, fundraising, one of
the tasks is I have to build a listof potential fundraising candidates.
Mm-hmm.
And they meet this and thisand this and this criteria.
And you might create the systemthere, which potentially could
then get outsourced or you get aVA to do who might then take over
the job of building that list.
(28:33):
Mm-hmm.
I do a lot of those thingsand actually it's interns that
help me do it, to be honest.
So that's where a lot of my processes,and we use it inside of Asana and we
build out what does that look liketo, , you know, automate the show,
automate our onboarding processes.
And so we've done quite a bitof creating the processes.
(28:54):
Mm-hmm.
Now it's about making sureit's connected to the right.
Pieces that you know are in there.
And if you don't have a team,that's where interns have been.
Everything has been createdby interns, , with me.
So I'm very thankful for thatlabor that has come in and
helped support to, to grow.
Honestly, interns are great.
(29:14):
We do something similar in ourmarketing department and we get
some interns in that space, , and.
Kind of rings true.
Something Michael Gerber had said to me,and, and he talks about this line quite
publicly, that every business is a school.
Yeah.
And when you think about it, that's where,, Systems and processes step in because
effectively they are the curriculumand the training for the students,
(29:38):
which, you know, is the new employee.
So this whole idea of interns andsystems and processes and building
business are really closely entwined.
And if you think about business as aschool, then, , I, I think that's a great
model, , of, of how to view business.
So, I agree with you.
Yeah.
So I know that you used, , quite a fewquotes in your book, but do you have a qu
(30:03):
a favorite quote that you like to live by?
Is it, did you embedthose into your book also?
Because I would've, yeah.
Yeah.
Look, I used to be, , a bitof a, Self-development junkie.
I loved my Jim Rohn and ZigZiglar and Tony Robbins and
some of the classics there.
So I actually had a wall full of quotesI remember, , when I was a-a teenager.
(30:29):
But one always that stuck out with me wasfrom Jim Rohn, , who I believe is a mentor
to Tony Robbins, who said, work harderon yourself than you do on your job.
, and whatever the job.
Is like if it's the business or whatever,it's just that idea of working hard on
yourself and giving it all you've got.
So work harder on yourselfthan you do on your job.
(30:50):
Mm-hmm.
So what is a hard lesson that you learnedthat actually changed your life also?
I think, , early on somethinghappened in my brain.
Might have been, I, I used to doa thing called, and I still do,
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and that wasalways about putting yourself.
(31:10):
In uncomfortable positions and, and beingcomfortable in uncomfortable positions.
So that was a hard lesson and I tryand seek that out where even things
like public speaking, like back in theday, you know, when you first do public
speaking, , and even to this day, it'sstill, , challenging and you get a
bit of the nerves before speaking infront of a big audience, but I somehow
(31:32):
wired my brain to think that those.
Uncomfortable situations.
, there was some sort of pleasure tied tothat and I'm, you know, like, , I'm doing
something that other people wouldn't do.
Mm-hmm.
And, and really that, that hardlesson of getting comfortable in an
uncomfortable situations and even seekingthem out, , has really served me well.
(31:56):
I think that goes back to what we'retalking about is creating systems.
People think that they want to be,, spontaneous, but they really, they
really desire the, the boundaries thatare around them so that they know where
they can push and where they can pull.
But they also, they go, Idon't like change, but yet
(32:16):
everything is changing, right?
And it's, I don't like systems,but yet that's what keeps you safe.
Yes.
And everything really is a system.
Some things you are consciously aware of.
Some things, , just operate on asubconscious level, but the way that
you might prepare your toast in themorning or like when I think of routine,
(32:38):
routine is like a system that you'vekind of embedded and it's become.
Subconscious.
Now, when I think about systems andprocesses, a lot of what I'm talking about
is just bringing them up to awarenesslevel so that you can go to work on them.
And so that you can identify the mostinfor important processes and document
(33:01):
that out and clearly articulate it.
And then you can follow that processand do that process until the point
at which it becomes second natureand then that's the new habit.
So I definitely feellike, , Systems and process.
Even if someone thinks, oh, I'm not asystems and processes person, you kind
of are, because everything is a system.
(33:23):
Yeah, you, you still getup in the morning, right?
You still have to go and,and you know, decide, okay,
yes, I'm gonna take a shower.
No, you're not, but you're stillgoing to the bathroom for some reason,
and then you still are getting readyand you're still going out the door,
whether it's to work or whatever.
You're still there.
There is a process thatis always followed.
Yes, I totally agree.
(33:44):
Totally agree.
So what are you most grateful for?
I'm most grateful for.
Family and I mean, I work hardand I really love what I do.
, and I try and, you know, burn the candleat both ends for that and, and have
been driven as I talked about, , whatI'm, and I led with family first there.
(34:06):
And why I'm grateful for thatis cuz I think that's, Something
that I'm still working on and,and trying to prioritize that.
And like it's easy in business tokind of, cuz I love what I do to be a
workaholic and slip into that groove.
So I'm constantly kind of remindingmyself that I'm grateful for family
(34:27):
and it needs to be a top focus.
I think that's wise that yourecognize that also because they
give you the permission to pursuesomething that you love also.
Because it can, it can go inthe other direction, right?
It can take you off course and they may begoing, well, we don't see him that much.
He's, he's providing forus, but we don't see him.
(34:49):
What they want is you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And my wife, she, she's great atbeing the reminder for me on that.
That's good.
, you always need a person that'sgonna be honest with you and tell
you the truth, tell you what you needto hear, not what you wanna hear.
Yep.
For sure.
So, who in your life hashad the biggest impact?
I know you mentioned the, thetwo gentlemen, Jim Rohn and Tony
(35:13):
Robbins, but do you know them?
Have you met them?
I met Tony Robbins.
I had been to a couple of hisevents, , unleashed the power within
and date with Destiny, and obviouslyconsumed a lot of his material.
And I think that kind of hit me at areal pivotable point like that was I
, in my teenage years, very impressionable.
(35:34):
, and I, I think that's probably why I'dsay had one of the, he, he had one of
the biggest impacts and it wasn't justhis message, but it was the right time
at the right place to hear the message.
Mm-hmm.
And what was the message?
Do you remember it?
, really just, , paraphrasinglike personal power.
Yeah.
Like he's got a lot of messages,but basically, , Taking ownership
(35:57):
and, , really taking responsibilityfor your life and what you've got in
it and that you have control over itand you can do something about it.
Yeah.
I worked with somebody before who hadsaid, and I thought this was a brilliant
statement, , that, , , he really likedit when there was some kind of a.
(36:18):
Mess up at the company or whateverand they were looking for somebody
that would, you know, own it.
And he said, I will.
Because it meant that he could go in andchange it and make it better, even if he
wasn't the person that was responsible.
He's going, no, I'm just gonna go aheadand say, hey, I'll take it and you know,
let me make this a better situation foreverybody, for the customers people.
(36:41):
And I reckon you could applythat to all areas of life.
Like that's the, the mindset that Iapproach everything with, regardless
of what goes on in my life.
It's always my fault and I can, thatgives me a chance to take control
of it, even if it's something thatseemingly from the outside looks
looking in, it looks like that.
(37:03):
, oh, that person did thatto you, or whatever.
If it's external of me, I don't reallyhave control over it, but I still
influenced if I chatted with thatperson or I was in the, you know, I
chose to be at that place at that time.
So I, I'm trying to look for theareas that I do have control over.
So I try and takethat, , extreme ownership.
(37:24):
I think, , Jocko talks aboutit as extreme ownership.
Mm, that's good stuff there too.
So what do you wanna be remembered for?
I think being a good dad, going backto that family thing that we talked
about, , from, from that perspectiveand from business perspective, just
(37:44):
helping to solve the problems ofsmall business owners like I, I.
Enjoy being helpful.
And there's some things thatI've been able to focus on that
I've gotten really good at.
, so just being helpful for small businessowners is, is probably, , from a work side
of things, how I'd like to be thought of.
, that's a good place for us to stopand acknowledge our sponsor Transcend
(38:07):
Network, and we'll be right back.
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The Intern Whisperer is affiliatedwith Employers4Change and we thank.
Transcend Network for beinga sponsor of our show.
(38:33):
And we're back to the second partof our show where we talk about
the future of jobs and industriesand what is 2030 gonna look like.
So this is all opinion, Dave,you don't have to worry about it.
What do you think 2030 is gonna look like?
There's no right or wrong answer.
Mm.
I think obviously a lot is changingand we see it with, , AI and Apple just
(38:56):
released their, , Apple Vision Pro,so there's gonna be a lot of change.
So, Already Covid accelerated a lotof the change with people working
with remote and , the types ofthings that they're working on.
So I don't exactly know what it isgoing to look like, but I know there
are going to be a lot more robotsdoing some of the menial tasks.
(39:21):
And that just like we talked about withsystems and processes, with systems
and processes, it creates space.
For you to be more creative.
So I think that AI will create spacefor humans to do some of their best work
because we're kind of taking some ofthe menimal tasks off and some of those
(39:44):
jobs will just disappear and then, thenthat brain power will get reallocated.
You know, I asked this question of peopleso many times, and I can tell you I get,
it's either the answer that you're giving,that it's gonna make our lives easier, or
it's that people are afraid of, you know?
Yeah.
It could take something away.
So I guess it depends on maybe what,how somebody looks at the glass.
(40:07):
Is it half full or half empty?
Right.
What I think that, , it's not just AI.
We, we have faster workflows andautomations and that makes it so that
yes, just with my phone, I can touchit and send an invoice out to somebody.
That would be great.
I think that there's thisplace where, , people.
(40:29):
Are thinking again, not only is it gonnatake their job away, but it raises some
problems down the road like, well, and,and we'll talk about this a little bit
further, you know, about the ethicsof some of what we're doing here.
So I look forward to that.
There's a couple questions I'll throwin ahead before we get to that ethics,
because it's always interesting here.
(40:50):
So systems are good, those are theautomations that we're currently
experiencing, and we are seeingthat it can make things better.
But what do you think about remote work?
Blended?
What is it like over thereon your side of the world?
I mean, did, is everybodymore remote here?
There's been a movement tobring people back into the
workplace, back into offices.
So what's it like inyour side of the world?
(41:13):
I think it's similar.
Everybody went to workfrom home through Covid.
A lot of people got really comfortablewith that, and now that they're
being asked to come back into theoffice, Businesses are finding
that a challenge and some peopleare looking for blended options.
, for us at Systemology, we werealready remote and have been for a
(41:35):
good number of years, and we builta virtual team around the world.
So oftentimes we look for the best talentat the best rate, , wherever they can be.
So for us, nothing really changed.
Changed.
We didn't really miss a beat.
, but I know.
Yeah, a lot.
There are a lot of businesses that arenow kind of thinking, well, what happens
(41:56):
and where are people more productive?
And they're more productiveback in the office.
Some people feel, so we needto get them back in the office.
So, , yeah, I-I think you can't windback the clock on what Covid did
and how it opened people's eyes.
Like, I feel like thiswork from home for me.
(42:17):
Has been the best kept secret for along time, and I think a lot of people
now are like, oh wow, this is justa different way to think about work.
And , as long as you've got.
A driven person who can move things alongand if they're not sitting right next
to someone, , and there are, you know,different ways that you can make yourself
(42:38):
more productive if you get that right.
I actually think working from home, atleast for me personally, works better.
But I think for some peoplethey also like to go into the
office and maybe it's a case of.
Depends on the individual.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
For me, I, I need the, , and I usethe word need specifically, , the
ability to be around other people.
I like the energy that comes off of it.
(42:59):
I like being able to have morespontaneous conversations.
I find that really hard to do ina remote environment, , because
I have to go through the effortof connecting with somebody.
It's gotta be on a camera, so, youknow, I can make it more experiential.
I think that humans aremade for relationship.
I not think I absolutely believe we are.
(43:19):
And with that, it means that there aretimes when we should be coming together
because we are made for relationship.
So I don't think that you have tobe in the office every single day.
But I do feel that there's a, abetter, a richer environment of
being human with other humans.
When you can see each other, you cantouch each other, like, you know, hugs and
(43:42):
stuff like that and say, it's really niceto, to be able to connect with people.
I work with so many people remote.
I, I feel like I know them as well asif I saw them in person, but I also feel
like there's always something missing.
We just had our first annualretreat did out in the Philippines
(44:05):
and we flew everybody in.
And there are team membersthat I've worked with for years
that I've never met in person.
And yeah, there's definitelysomething that happens when you
meet someone in person and youare able to share the space.
Outside of work, right?
The space when you eat together or whenyou hang out in the evening together, or
(44:27):
you share a drink or whatever it might be,, that you can't really replicate remote.
Yeah, so I, I think there's a bit of both.
Yeah, even with the ability to haveholograms and virtual reality, and, and if
you've watched any avatar movies, you knowthat there's, yeah, well, yeah, you can
have virtual reality, but I also sit hereand go, I don't want my body lying and
(44:50):
what is essentially a coffin in my mind.
So I'm going, well, my, my existenceis out doing something else.
And I go, no, I'd ratherdo that in real life.
So there's these places of, allof these types of, , Technology
that we can have that I go, Idon't know, do I really want that?
You know, because I, I do like being aperson that is experiencing something
(45:15):
for real, not necessarily in a, anaugmented type of a environment.
So what are your thoughtsabout that AR VR?
What do you think?
Yeah, , I am interested to have a.
A great experience with it.
I ha I haven't yet had an experiencewhere I've thought I'd wanna hang
(45:36):
out here, and maybe that will happen.
, you know, you think of somethinglike the Matrix where you fully
hook into this immersive experienceand, , maybe that will change my mind.
But at the moment, using Oculusor some sort of, VR headset
just doesn't quite do it for me.
I haven't tried the new Apple oneson, and maybe it's a hybrid approach.
(45:59):
Maybe it's the augmented reality.
I think it's definitely coming.
, for me it hasn't quite clicked.
It'd be interesting to seewhat happens once it does.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Now I work out of a co-working space.
You didn't know this, and it'sfilled with, , 3d, , simulation
companies, and I have one ofthose too, , that's down there.
And so we often, there, we're surroundedby Oculus, we're surrounded by everything.
(46:23):
There's a guy that works out everymorning with his, , Oculus headset, so.
It is, I can't say we live and breatheit, but we're, we're definitely
drinking the Kool-Aid is the point.
Mm.
So I, I'm always aroundwhatever the latest stuff
is, , that's within our power.
And we do these things calledgame jams where you can go
and experience things at a.
(46:45):
Different level.
That's more of like militarygrade, you know, super high grade
quality of those experiences.
And they're pretty cool.
But I still sit here and go, no, Idon't think anything replaces being
human, but you know, we'll have towait and see, you know, for that.
What are your thoughts about robots?
Because, you know, they bring,you bring people food now and
(47:06):
they do all kinds of stuff.
Yeah, we went, we just got back from atwo week vacation in Japan, and on the
last day we went to a robot cafe wherewe were served by robots shown to our
table, and we'd order on an iPad andthe food would come out on a robot.
(47:26):
And the kids loved it because therobot would dance to Gangnam style and.
It's pretty fun to see, and I cansee more and more the introduction
of robots here in Australia.
Our, , our, like our wagecosts when you're running a,
a business are quite high.
, so I see it in the supermarkets now.
(47:48):
More self checkout.
Options where you're scanning your ownand bagging your own product and seeing
more and more of that automation androbots take over some of those things
because, Yeah, obviously the businessinvests in it once and it continues
to do the job as opposed to having topay someone a wage forever and a day.
(48:11):
And yeah, at some point itbecomes more cost effective.
So I don't think you can fight it.
It's, it's obviously going to happenbecause businesses will look for
the most efficient way to do certaintasks because their mandate is,
To become a profitable business.
And if, if that helps 'em on thatjourney, they'll, they'll take it.
So.
Mm-hmm.
(48:31):
, again, I'm, maybe it goes back to that,what does the future 2030 look like?
I don't see any otheroption than to embrace.
Mm-hmm.
Like, you can't, this is happening.
So you can sit here and say, no, Idon't want this, I don't want this,
I don't want this, I don't want this.
I-it's happening.
So you are better off embracing it.
Yeah.
(48:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Don't be afraid of sit here and go,okay, I'm gonna go for the ride with it.
For sure.
So what about the ethical dilemmas thatyou can come and see out of all of this?
What are your thoughts?
I think the thing I'm thinkingmore and more about is just.
People pretending to be somethingpotentially that they're not, whether
(49:12):
that's going for an interview or arecruitment process and using ChatGBT to
present at a higher standard than theymight actually be able to operate at.
Or, , you know, the more nefarious end,, the scams and things that we see pop
up with people using AI and, you know,Replicating voice and video and all of
(49:40):
this, you know, new generation ai, thatthat is able to replicate someone's
voice and make it sound like someone.
Mm-hmm.
Or deep fake type videos.
Like I see a, just a lot in thatspace, and I have been thinking about
it recently through the lens of.
As a parent and thinking about, youknow, next level bullying and what
(50:03):
that's going to look like when kidsare, you know, leaving a voicemail on
someone else's phone using one of thesevoice generators that makes them look
like they said something when they dids didn't say something, or, I mean,
social media already has, you know Yeah.
An element of that bullying in it, andI just feel like, In the wrong hands.
(50:24):
This is just going to, totake it to a whole new level.
Yeah, it's very dangerous for sure.
That's where I was recommendingyou might wanna watch.
I.
Black mirror.
Yeah.
Yes.
Some of the new episodes are out, areexactly like what you're describing.
And not about the bullying, but, well,maybe a little bit too that's there,
but the generative, , AI for sure.
(50:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Check that one out.
So, best mentoring advice that youwanna share with our listeners.
I think, and I'm biased, but Ithink the best thing that you can
do is start a business if you'rethat way inclined because you
just learn so much about yourself.
You learn so much about people, about theworld, the way that things operate, and
(51:11):
you get that real hands-on experience.
So, I feel that would be thebest piece of advice I could
give anyone is start a business.
I think so too.
The thing is, is that theydon't teach us that in school.
When we go to school about how to thinklike an entrepreneur or even thinking
like a scientist, I mean, you know, that'sessentially what an entrepreneur is.
(51:34):
You go, I see a problem.
How can I fix that problem?
That would be super helpful and I thinkthat would be something that would
be very beneficial is to know how to.
How to have systems inside of there.
So I, I value that very much.
Now how can our listeners contact you?
Because we share this on our contact cardand in the, , description of the show too.
(51:59):
Look, if you're interested in anythingthat I talked about, , with regards to
systems, I just head over to Amazon,get a copy of the book, systemology.
If you're listening to this, you'reprobably an audio person, so grab
the audible that's also available.
, and then if you wanna go alittle bit deeper, down the
rabbit hole, , systemology.com.
And there's links from there tomy YouTube channel to some of my
(52:21):
different social media channels.
, we have a podcast, although it'sbeen on a little bit of a hiatus now
for a little while, but, , at somepoint we'll reactivate that as well.
And all of that's through systemology.com.
That is perfect.
Well, I really wanna thank youfor being a guest on the show
and I'm gonna be, , sharing thisbook, obviously in my social feed.
(52:41):
I have some, I don't know how manyfollowers you have on your LinkedIn.
I'm at about 8,500 right now, and whenI post something out there, I know that
people have really paid attention to it.
So I hope people see you because I'm gonnabe writing about this episode, writing
about your book because I think it's,, something that everybody should read.
(53:02):
Awesome.
Yeah.
Thank you so much for that.
And I'll do, , our best toshare that round as well.
Yeah, thank you.
Well just, , so our listeners know you canlook for this show to air on the 25th of
July, so, , they'll be hearing about it.
That's a little ways out.
I know when they hear it.
But we will also supply a coverof the book so they know what to
(53:24):
look for on Amazon or wherever,wherever they purchase their books.
There it is.
Thank you.
Perfect.
All right, well thanks Dave.
Perfect.
Thank you.
So we wanna thank our sponsor, catfive Studios and thank you to our
production team, producer and editorLeona Blair, and music by Sophie Lloyd.
(53:46):
Be sure to visit Employers4Changeat www.E4C.tech to learn how you
can create real diversity andinclusive culture while scaling
your people for the future of work.
Thank you for supporting the InternWhisperer by subscribing to us on Podbean,
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(54:08):
to visit Employers4Change.
Who is our sponsor?
Hi, my name is Isabella Johnston,the founder of Employers4Change
and the Intern Whisperer Podcast.
Today's tip of the week continuesour discussion about unconscious
bias, which is also known as.
Implicit bias.
There are many types of unconscious bias.
Some of the most common are biases inhow individuals regard their own thought
(00:32):
processes and reasoning abilities, suchas when they focus on negative qualities
of individuals that align with one'sexisting attitudes, like a confirmation
of the bias and an affirmation.
Other unconscious biases are directlyrelated to how other people may look.
These types of biases tend torely on stereotypes and can result
(00:56):
in discriminatory practices.
When people are not treated likeindividuals like racism, ageism, and
beauty, there are also unconsciousbiases that stereotype people based on
how they behave, even though these typesof biases aren't commonly talked about.
Holding these biases can resultin discriminating against people
(01:18):
based on their personalities.
So, hi, today's guest is David Jenyns.
Did I say it right?
Thank you.
Yeah, pretty close.
Oh, you'll educate me.
So what is it?
All right.
It's Jenyns Jenyns, David Jenyns.
He's the founder of System Hub andjoining us from Melbourne, Australia.
We have a big time gaphere for our listeners.
(01:41):
He has over 20 yearsof business experience.
He's an entrepreneur and he's also hada journey that started in his early
twenties when he was selling a company.
Melbourne cricket ground, which I'm gonnaguess he's gonna tell us more about that.
That's a sports team into and turnthat into other endeavors that
allowed him to create systemologywith a mission to free all business
(02:05):
owners worldwide from the dailyoperations of running their business.
So Dave, welcome to the show.
A pleasure.
Thanks for having me as Villa.
Yeah.
And I'm gonna go give alittle shout out for you.
So how he got to the show is because hereached out on LinkedIn, the power of
LinkedIn, and he knew something about me.
He knew that I had listedthat I was in Asana.
(02:28):
He knew that I was ahead of a company andI went, okay, he's done some research.
That's helpful.
And then he mentioned his book.
And part of what my porn is, is systems.
I love anything that'sabout processes and systems.
And he told me about his book and Isaid, okay, go ahead and send it to me.
And I started readingit and it was amazing.
And so we're gonna talk about your bookin a little bit, but I usually kick off
(02:50):
the show by what are five words thatdescribe you and why those five words?
Hmm.
Five words.
I'd say driven, creative.
Process driven, persistent, and fun.
And the last one, I say fun.
I'd like to think I'm fun.
, but I don't know, I, , sometimesI think if I ask my team that
they'd, they'd say I'm not so fun.
(03:12):
But, , , yeah, a little bit of, , eachone of those kind of makes me who I am.
I think that a person that iscreative has to be part fun.
I don't think that you can do one withoutthe other, so I'm gonna say, yes, you are.
And I also saw this picture of youwearing a tie and glasses and it
was looking like, you know, you weredressed up a little bit in a costume a
(03:32):
little bit because it was a book coverand it looks like you do have fun.
So I agree.
Perfect.
Yes.
Just we recently did a photo shoot forour YouTube channel, and I'm dressing
up like Harry Potter and holding all ofthese weird props and things like that.
And, , yeah, I, I sometimeslook a little bit ridiculous.
, you know, that's part of being fun, right?
(03:53):
So why driven?
Why did you choose that word?
I.
Look, I think, , you know, thatkind of maybe relates a little
bit to the idea of, , persistent.
, when I was growing up, our family, , youknow, money was always a challenge and
things were tight and I kind of decidedearly on, Hey, that's an a warning for me
(04:15):
and I want to kind of move away from that.
And I became very driven, kind of just.
Trying to get myself out of thatsituation, and that's always been really
kind of driving me into business andgetting things done and making progress.
Yeah, I think anybody that's anentrepreneur always needs to pay attention
(04:36):
to the processes right from the beginning.
And so I know I'm gonna beasking you questions built
around entrepreneurship for sure.
And how vital processes are tobeing able to get stuff done.
So creative and fun, they gotogether hand in hand, I think.
But why'd you pick those?
Feel like, , as a businessowner, your business?
(04:59):
Really is a creative endeavorbecause you are creating it the
way that you would like it to be.
And oftentimes the business owner willimagine something in their head of the way
they think the business should be, or theproblem that they're going to solve, or
the client that they're going to serve.
And then they.
Go to work on it.
And there's that real creative processand, and business oftentimes reflects
(05:23):
a lot about the business owner.
, so yeah, I, I think I love to bringthat creativity out and showcase it in
the, the work that we do is business.
Oftentimes it's really obvious in themarketing department, like that's a
really obviously creative area, butreally I think that creativity shows
up in all parts of the business.
Mm-hmm.
I agree.
(05:43):
Yep.
And process driven, persistent.
I bet those two go together.
, Yes, so the process driven, my dadwas a systems engineer and he came
up with this little system for mybrother and I when I was quite young,
called the Sheet where basically wecould earn points throughout the week.
So, By doing different activities.
(06:05):
It was like he was trying to gamifylife and at the end of the week you
would add up all of the points andthen that would equal the, , pocket
money that we would get for the week.
So systems has kind of been, you know,embedded into my way of being since day
dot, and it, it's just natural for meto think that way, which is sometimes.
It feels a little bit juxtapositionfor many people cuz , they think,
(06:29):
ah, process removes creativity.
Whereas I kind of feelthe opposite is true.
I feel process allows you to get thethings handled that need to be handled
and done to a certain standard andconsistently, and that creates the space,
which then allows you to be more creative.
Hmm.
I had agree.
(06:49):
I definitely would agree because,, processes give you bra boundaries, right.
And everybody needs those.
And that way you know how faryou can stretch the boundaries.
That's what I hear you saying.
So that makes sense to me.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
So where did you get started?
What was your career journey?
You can start from college.
Some people have started as early astheir paper route that they did when they
(07:12):
were in middle school, , and the industryand how you got to where you are now.
Because I'd like to know moreabout what Cricket is and what
is the Melbourne cricket ground.
It is.
Well, I explained a littlebit how I was kind of,
Driven, , just from my upbringing.
And then when I got to the end of myfinal year of schooling, everybody was
deciding if they're gonna go to universityand what are they gonna do afterwards.
(07:36):
And I thought, look, I just want toget out there and get stuck into it.
So a lot of my friends did go off anddid uni and then I just started a,
a business and started looking foropportunities and thinking, you know,
how can I make a name for myself?
And I just read a book called The One.
Sorry, the one minute millionaire.
And it, it told, it's a good book.
(07:59):
It, and I, it told the storyof a guy called Paul Hartunian
who sold the Brooklyn Bridge.
And what happened was they were doing somerenovations on the Brooklyn Bridge and he
got his hands on a lot of the discardedwood, chopped it up into pieces, and
then wrote a press release and, , sharedit around that Brooklyn, , , New Jersey
man sells the Brooklyn Bridge for 1995.
(08:21):
And I just read this story and I drovepast the Melbourne Cricket Ground.
And for those of you who don't knowbeing Australian, , we're a little
bit sporting mad and we have athing called Aussie Rules Football.
And the MCG is effectively, , It'skinda like the Church of Sport here in
Australia, so it's, it's hallowed ground.
(08:42):
It's really precious.
Now I'm driving past the MCG and there'sa big gaping hole in the side of it.
, because they were doing some renovationson the Melbourne cricket ground,
and then it was like fireworks wentoff in my brain and I thought, I'm
going to get my hands on a bunchof the discarded wood and carpet.
And basically I replicated whatPaul Hartoonian did, but here in
(09:03):
Australia, and I got the wood andchopped it up into little pieces.
And, , I'm not sure if for those,looking at the video, you'll see this.
I'm holding up a piece of the wood.
I, I cut it into a tiny little slither,stuck it to some certificate paper.
And, , wrote the press release.
Melbourne Man sells the MCG for $24.95.
And then that was my first little,, endeavor into the entrepreneurial world.
(09:28):
And I got mobbed by the media fora good number of months after that
on, , TV and radio and in newspaper.
Where they were telling this storyabout this, , , 18 year old who
had, , basically sold the MCG.
So that was really kind of my,my first start into business.
So I'm, I'm curious how much moneydid you make from that, because
(09:49):
that sounds like genius, honestly.
Yeah, look, , it was hardly any moneydown cuz it was all discarded and I got it
from the demolition store and then most ofthe labor was just, , me and the family.
And then, look, I probably sold, I.
Close to about a hundred grand's worth.
, which, you know, as a, a youngman, that was a- a great start.
(10:09):
That's a l-lot of money in my career.
And I still have a big pile of thatwood sitting in my mom's garage.
Mm.
Yeah.
And there's gonna be a place youcan pass that on to your kids and
they, there's gonna be anothergeneration that wants to have that,
that piece of history in their hand.
Right.
For sure.
Oh my gosh.
That is, that is brilliant.
It's kind of like when peoplesold, , pet Rocks, you know?
(10:32):
Yes.
Yep.
Who, who thought of that?
Like just a rock inside of a box.
But yet, you know, there's peoplethat buy stuff like that too, right?
Mm-hmm.
Yours has more history toit, so I think it's relevant.
Yeah, it's, it definitely,I love telling that, sorry.
It was the springboard, like, after thatI tried a bunch of different things.
I opened a rock and roll clothingmusic store where we tried to
(10:54):
model what hot topic did in theUS and bring it to Australia.
, I was in the stock market education space.
We tried importing products.
I did the info product business, didlots of things until I finally landed.
It landed in my last business,which was the, , digital agency.
And that was kind of, I was in therefor 10 years, had the business for
(11:14):
13 years, and that was really where alot of my thinking around systems and
processes and how to grow somethingwithout me really got formalized.
So, Hmm.
So the name of the company then,I mean, it's, it's also brilliant
because it's about systems.
I mean, it couldn't, there's no doubtingwhat the book is about, honestly.
(11:36):
So, , but why did you addthe ol systemology onto it?
Yeah, so at the end of the digital agencywhen I'd systemized it, took some time
out, had the kind of birth of my child.
I had some time out for a year and I wasthinking, well, what am I gonna do next?
And I was thinking about how Iremoved myself and systems, and I
(11:57):
thought, look, this whole idea ofbusiness process for small business
is such an under-addressed area.
And poorly addressed.
So I thought this is a problem Iwanted to solve and I was chatting
with some colleagues we're throwingaround some names and we wanted
something that was really brandable,something that kind of says what it.
(12:19):
Does, but it's, it's enough of a brandthat can stick and we can have fun with,
like, we license out the material toother business coaches and consultants
and they're called Systemologies.
So we have fun with that.
And , so I just felt like itwas, , yeah, a very brandable.
Term.
Yeah.
, and something that I thought,Hey, this could be the book title.
(12:41):
It could be the business name.
It could really be justthe central of everything.
And it, it clicked and then I went onthe next step, which was to try and
find out, well, who had the domainname and could I buy it off them?
And I ended up, , once I securedit, I, I thought, yep, this is,
I'm going all in on this brand.
Yeah.
I like it quite a, quite a bit.
So what is, where'd you go to school then?
(13:04):
Did you go to college?
Didn't end up going to college.
I went to a school called MelbourneHigh School and it was a select entry
school, and I like was surrounded by, I.
The best of the best in Melbourne.
They traveled from all over Melbourneto go to this particular school and
everybody got incredibly high, , likeATAR scores when you get to the end, like
(13:27):
basically the scoring and they're allgoing off to the prestigious universities
and there's a little bit of pressure todo that, but I kind of, that's when I
started zigging, when others were zagging.
And I thought, that's smart though.
Honestly, I just.
Yeah.
Do you think collegeis meant for everybody?
I don't.
And I was an educator, soI don't, yeah, definitely.
(13:49):
, not for everybody.
For some people it makesperfect sense and for others.
They'll choose a different path.
There's, you know, from a businessowner perspective, there's plenty of
business owners really that just go outand learn by the school of hard knocks.
Mm-hmm.
Like starting a real world bricksand mortar business, the rock and
roll clothing music store, and havingstaff and the expense of, you know,
(14:13):
running the store and, , you know,the lease that we had and inventory
and like, I just learned so much more.
In the rag trade than I could have everimagined learning, doing a university
course, cuz some of those lessonsyou just can't learn without doing.
No, you really can't.
And I know that you mentioned that,but I always find it interesting.
(14:35):
I live vicariously through people inother countries and we may not always know
like, well, what is that like over there?
, I've had quite a few people thatI've worked with from other countries
and not everybody goes to school.
And like I said, and I don't think that,, I don't think people will be going to
college in the future either, exceptunless you're getting a license or some
(14:55):
type of a certificate specific, like, youknow, doctors, lawyers, things like that.
I think that the route that youdid was very good because you made
a lot of money and then you alsodidn't spend money on your education.
So I think you're brilliant,honestly, the way you chose.
So what did tell us about the book More?
(15:16):
Yeah.
One thing I'll just mention on thatalso, , like I'm naturally curious,
a self-starter and a self learner.
So while I might not havegone to traditional education,
I still educated myself.
Oh yeah, yeah.
, and like that, all of that has formeda, a solid foundation for the businesses
that we've grown and, and yeah.
Where Systemology is today.
(15:38):
So, I mean, it all started with the book.
I.
Left.
, what happened with the digital agency?
, I took some time off when I found wewere pregnant and had a CEO at the time.
She ended up running that business forthree years because I found after I took
a brace with the kids, that I kind oflost the passion for the digital agency,
(15:59):
so I didn't want to step back into it.
And Melissa started running thatand she ran it quite well for a
few years until, , she's actually.
, US born but was living inAustralia and she had to fly
home for some family reasons.
And then we ended up selling, , thedigital agency at that point cuz
I didn't wanna step back into it.
And that then all of those lessonsI kind of rolled up into Systemology
(16:24):
and the path that I took to removemyself outta the operations.
And I was, you know, inspired bybooks like The Emith by Michael E.
Gerber.
And traction by Gino Wickman.
And I thought, you know, they all talkabout systems and processes and they get
you excited and pumped up about them, butthey don't really tell you the how to.
So Systemology, I wanted it to be,, effectively like the implementation
(16:47):
guide or the how to guide for the e-myth.
How do you identify your critical systems?
How do you.
Extract what is currently happening,best practice and my methodology,
it's different from other processimprovement methodologies like Lean
and Six Sigma, which focus heavilyon, well, you already have a process
(17:08):
and you are looking to improve it.
Whereas Systemology is actually thestep before you haven't yet really
codified what your way is, andas a small business, you haven't.
Made it consistent.
So Systemology is about finding,well, here's how we do things.
Let's bring everybody up to that standard.
(17:29):
Because for a lot of business owners,that creates an incredible win just by
getting a level of consistency where mostsmall businesses, they're only consistent
if the business owner is doing the work.
Mm-hmm.
And, and that's the biggest, , challengethat I try and address with the book.
So you mentioned, , Michael Gerber.
I'm a big fan of Emith, also.
Emith Revisited all of themyths that he has written.
(17:51):
Emith, , super, super good book.
And also the other book too.
You know, you mentionedboth of those authors.
I, I know them.
And when you were talking aboutthat in your book, , you also
addressed the four stages of Bisto.
Business systemology and youbroke it down into survival,
stationary, scalable, and saleable.
(18:12):
And I like that type of, , takeoff ofthe Maslow's theory, honestly, yes.
Of how you could, , actuallyvisualize what that would look
like in the growth of your company.
So you wanna talk about that a littlebit more too, because I, I truly
appreciate the value that you related itto something that people can see easily.
Yeah, I think to figure out what your nextstep is when it comes to systemizing your
(18:37):
business, you have to figure out whereyou are and where you want to get to.
So this idea of, you know, the fourstages of business systemization is to
go, oh, I'm here and I want to get there.
And also at each stage, what you haveto focus on to move through to the
next level is slightly different.
And you can't jump from level onesurvival and go straight to saleable.
(18:58):
You kind of have tomove through the stages.
So the first stage is, , survival,and that's really where
most business owners start.
They are very much the bottleneck inthe business that oftentimes they don't
even realize they're the bottleneck.
A lot of things just depend on them.
If they've got a small team aroundthem, they don't really like process.
They kind of make things up as they go.
Like everything's bespoke for everycustomer that's coming through.
(19:22):
, and to move through to the next stageup, which is what I call stationary, the
business owner is least has recognizedthat, , they are that bottleneck.
And at this point, 9 times outta10, you might have a way of doing
things, but it's actually trappedinside the heads of the team members.
(19:44):
Mm-hmm.
So that's why you're stationary atthat point, because if something
happens to them, if they can't showup to work, whether that's, you
know, Sally in accounts who issuesout the invoice and if she's off
sick, no invoices get issued out.
Or if it's the business ownerwho handles all of the incoming
inquiries and leads, and if they'renot there, we're not making a sale.
(20:04):
So it's kind of like you have a way,but you are stuck because it, it's
stuck in the heads of those members.
And that's what thatstationary phase is about.
Once you're gonna move up to thenext level, , which is scalable.
Scalable is where you havesome systems and processes,
but it's very patchy and maybe.
(20:27):
You've got some systems in yourfinance department, but you've got no
systems in your marketing department.
And oftentimes it has to dowith, , where certain strengths
of particular team members are.
And oftentimes with the businessowner, you might become very heavily
reliant on the business owner, andthat's why it's not documented or
(20:47):
it's hard to get it out of their head.
So that scalable stage.
Everything's a little bit patchy.
Not only the documentation, butthe tools that you are using.
It's a bit clunky.
It feels a little bit like it's aFrankenstein machine that's put together.
And , probably the biggest telltalesign is you constantly need to
remind your team to follow process.
(21:09):
And that's the biggest distinction betweenthat and the top level, that that saleable
stage, which is when you're in saleable.
And the goal isn't necessarily tosell, but rather to build a business
that someone would want to buy becausethose businesses run more efficiently
and there's a way of doing things.
But you can tell when you're inthat top stage when people say,
(21:32):
this is how we do things here.
And new team members come on boardand the old team members teach
them and show them what's done.
And almost like from day dot, the personis indoctrinated that we have a way of
doing things and we're process drivenand this is how we do things here.
And, and that level, you don't have toremind your team at that point, like cuz
(21:55):
at the start, those first few stages,it's a slog to build a systems culture.
Yeah.
But once you've built a systemsculture, , really, I mean, it's a
slog to change any form of culture.
Mm-hmm.
But once you get on the otherside of that, , that's, that's
when you reap the biggest rewardsfrom going through these stages.
Mm-hmm.
So I feel like where I am is I'm not insaleable because I, even though I'm a
(22:19):
process person, I'm a single founder, soI'm really looking forward to like, what.
Obviously advice you would've to say, soI'm having to wear many hats like an e
Emith had talked about, and so sometimesI wear the sales hat and sometimes I
wear the investment hat and sometimesI'm wearing, okay, I, I'm an HR product.
(22:39):
I have to go and do these things, youknow, recruit and interview and assess and
be able to send people out to employers.
I've got processes, but man, it isjust, It is so hard to be able to just
allocate enough time for all of thatwhen you're a sole founder and you don't
have somebody else to share that with.
(23:01):
So I'm interested into whatsuggestions do you have for
somebody that would be like myself?
I.
Mm.
It's good that we mentioned this becausethe, when I first wrote Systemology,
I wrote it for the business ownerthat has a small team around them.
Mm-hmm.
So some of the steps that I mentionedthere in the book really only
work if you've got a small team.
(23:23):
Mm-hmm.
Now that doesn't mean systemologycan't work for you if you are
solo, but it means that you mighthave to make some adjustments.
So, for example, stepnumber two talks about.
Well, after you've identified the coresystems, think about who on your team
knows how to do that particular task.
Mm-hmm.
And then step number three is weextract it out of their head and
maybe we introduce, you know, adocumenter or a systems champion to
(23:46):
kind of make that process easier.
But when it's just you and it'sjust the business owner, you,
you don't get that benefit.
And not only that, by over documentingsomething early on when it's just you, you
don't really get much leverage from that.
Because you are still theone actually following it.
So there's this really fine linethat you have to tread between over
(24:08):
documentation and enough documentation.
So you'd probably lean more to,you know, some checklists and more
high level process to start with.
And.
Probably the first stepping stonecuz I do quite a bit of work with,
, coaches and consultants, , with oursystemologies cuz I try and help them
grow their business and I want them tobe the best example of what they teach.
(24:29):
So we try and give them a pathway to helpgrow beyond just being the consultant.
And I think one of the first hiresthat really helps is some sort of
virtual assistant, , potentially.
You know, maybe even out of an emergingeconomy, , where you get really good
bang for your buck and you start off byrecording yourself doing parts of your
(24:54):
day-to-day tasks, and you carve off,it's a little bit counterintuitive,
but you actually want to carveoff all the easiest stuff first.
So it's.
, administrative tasks, it's right.
Booking calendar appointments,it's chasing up invoices.
It's anything where you are not a,you are not adding any unique magic.
(25:17):
Mm-hmm.
And you, you slowly startcarving off some of those tasks
and delegating to an assistant.
They might start off by watchingfive videos of you doing this task.
Here's how I schedule thiscalendar appointment, or
here's how I run my podcast.
And they'll, you get them to watchthe videos and then you say, right
(25:37):
now I want you to, , create a, aprocess based on what you watch.
And then at the end you can have adiscussion as to whether or not they
feel comfortable to take it over.
So one story I'll relate, , is.
One of our systemologies, DanLenny, he's a, , videographer.
, and he coaches videographers tobuild, , their videography business.
And when he started in that coachingbusiness again, it was just him.
(26:00):
He went through that processthat I was talking about.
One of his marketing strategieswas to run a podcast.
So he was booking the podcast,scheduling the podcast, running
the podcast, editing, uploading itinto, , , iTunes, syndicating it
across, , LinkedIn and other social media.
, and he worked, that was the first thingthat he worked with his VA to work on.
(26:22):
She, she followed him, mirrored him.
He recorded a bunch of videos.
First off though, he, he.
It took about Three to Six months torecord himself doing all of these things.
Saved it in a Google Drive folder andjust collected this big collection.
Then he hired the VA and said, here'sa bunch of videos that I've recorded on
the tasks that I'm doing, and I want youto work with me to create the process
(26:44):
around that and start to take off pieces.
So it sounds like you are actuallyquite close cuz you, you like
process and you've got some process.
Probably that next step foryou is really thinking about.
How do you then, you know, in a costeffective manner, get another team
member on to start carving out some ofthose tasks, which then creates space
(27:08):
for you to work on higher value tasks?
Mm, yeah, for sure.
Some of that is, , related to raisingmoney for me, , raising investment money.
And so I'm always stuck between,okay, I can either fundraise.
Or I can focus on sales.
If I focus on sales, then youknow, the money will come in.
(27:29):
It's just a matter of, , makingsure that I stay very focused.
So my advisor had said, focus isthe only word you pay attention to.
The next word is execute.
So it sounds like you'retelling me this thing though.
Yeah, obviously.
I, I, it's almost like, , , whatwe try and do is we.
We identify the critical thingsin your business that must happen.
(27:51):
So you might go, it's fundraisingor you might say it's sales.
So let's say you, you picked oneor the other, , to start with
cuz you have to start somewhere.
Mm-hmm.
Then you tried really drill into,well what are the activities
in that that are essential?
And then which parts of thosemight we create a system.
So we look for essential,repeatable, and delegatable.
(28:12):
Yeah.
And if we can identify those, youmight go, well, fundraising, one of
the tasks is I have to build a listof potential fundraising candidates.
Mm-hmm.
And they meet this and thisand this and this criteria.
And you might create the systemthere, which potentially could
then get outsourced or you get aVA to do who might then take over
the job of building that list.
(28:33):
Mm-hmm.
I do a lot of those thingsand actually it's interns that
help me do it, to be honest.
So that's where a lot of my processes,and we use it inside of Asana and we
build out what does that look liketo, , you know, automate the show,
automate our onboarding processes.
And so we've done quite a bitof creating the processes.
(28:54):
Mm-hmm.
Now it's about making sureit's connected to the right.
Pieces that you know are in there.
And if you don't have a team,that's where interns have been.
Everything has been createdby interns, , with me.
So I'm very thankful for thatlabor that has come in and
helped support to, to grow.
Honestly, interns are great.
(29:14):
We do something similar in ourmarketing department and we get
some interns in that space, , and.
Kind of rings true.
Something Michael Gerber had said to me,and, and he talks about this line quite
publicly, that every business is a school.
Yeah.
And when you think about it, that's where,, Systems and processes step in because
effectively they are the curriculumand the training for the students,
(29:38):
which, you know, is the new employee.
So this whole idea of interns andsystems and processes and building
business are really closely entwined.
And if you think about business as aschool, then, , I, I think that's a great
model, , of, of how to view business.
So, I agree with you.
Yeah.
So I know that you used, , quite a fewquotes in your book, but do you have a qu
(30:03):
a favorite quote that you like to live by?
Is it, did you embedthose into your book also?
Because I would've, yeah.
Yeah.
Look, I used to be, , a bitof a, Self-development junkie.
I loved my Jim Rohn and ZigZiglar and Tony Robbins and
some of the classics there.
So I actually had a wall full of quotesI remember, , when I was a-a teenager.
(30:29):
But one always that stuck out with me wasfrom Jim Rohn, , who I believe is a mentor
to Tony Robbins, who said, work harderon yourself than you do on your job.
, and whatever the job.
Is like if it's the business or whatever,it's just that idea of working hard on
yourself and giving it all you've got.
So work harder on yourselfthan you do on your job.
(30:50):
Mm-hmm.
So what is a hard lesson that you learnedthat actually changed your life also?
I think, , early on somethinghappened in my brain.
Might have been, I, I used to doa thing called, and I still do,
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and that wasalways about putting yourself.
(31:10):
In uncomfortable positions and, and beingcomfortable in uncomfortable positions.
So that was a hard lesson and I tryand seek that out where even things
like public speaking, like back in theday, you know, when you first do public
speaking, , and even to this day, it'sstill, , challenging and you get a
bit of the nerves before speaking infront of a big audience, but I somehow
(31:32):
wired my brain to think that those.
Uncomfortable situations.
, there was some sort of pleasure tied tothat and I'm, you know, like, , I'm doing
something that other people wouldn't do.
Mm-hmm.
And, and really that, that hardlesson of getting comfortable in an
uncomfortable situations and even seekingthem out, , has really served me well.
(31:56):
I think that goes back to what we'retalking about is creating systems.
People think that they want to be,, spontaneous, but they really, they
really desire the, the boundaries thatare around them so that they know where
they can push and where they can pull.
But they also, they go, Idon't like change, but yet
(32:16):
everything is changing, right?
And it's, I don't like systems,but yet that's what keeps you safe.
Yes.
And everything really is a system.
Some things you are consciously aware of.
Some things, , just operate on asubconscious level, but the way that
you might prepare your toast in themorning or like when I think of routine,
(32:38):
routine is like a system that you'vekind of embedded and it's become.
Subconscious.
Now, when I think about systems andprocesses, a lot of what I'm talking about
is just bringing them up to awarenesslevel so that you can go to work on them.
And so that you can identify the mostinfor important processes and document
(33:01):
that out and clearly articulate it.
And then you can follow that processand do that process until the point
at which it becomes second natureand then that's the new habit.
So I definitely feellike, , Systems and process.
Even if someone thinks, oh, I'm not asystems and processes person, you kind
of are, because everything is a system.
(33:23):
Yeah, you, you still getup in the morning, right?
You still have to go and,and you know, decide, okay,
yes, I'm gonna take a shower.
No, you're not, but you're stillgoing to the bathroom for some reason,
and then you still are getting readyand you're still going out the door,
whether it's to work or whatever.
You're still there.
There is a process thatis always followed.
Yes, I totally agree.
(33:44):
Totally agree.
So what are you most grateful for?
I'm most grateful for.
Family and I mean, I work hardand I really love what I do.
, and I try and, you know, burn the candleat both ends for that and, and have
been driven as I talked about, , whatI'm, and I led with family first there.
(34:06):
And why I'm grateful for thatis cuz I think that's, Something
that I'm still working on and,and trying to prioritize that.
And like it's easy in business tokind of, cuz I love what I do to be a
workaholic and slip into that groove.
So I'm constantly kind of remindingmyself that I'm grateful for family
(34:27):
and it needs to be a top focus.
I think that's wise that yourecognize that also because they
give you the permission to pursuesomething that you love also.
Because it can, it can go inthe other direction, right?
It can take you off course and they may begoing, well, we don't see him that much.
He's, he's providing forus, but we don't see him.
(34:49):
What they want is you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And my wife, she, she's great atbeing the reminder for me on that.
That's good.
, you always need a person that'sgonna be honest with you and tell
you the truth, tell you what you needto hear, not what you wanna hear.
Yep.
For sure.
So, who in your life hashad the biggest impact?
I know you mentioned the, thetwo gentlemen, Jim Rohn and Tony
(35:13):
Robbins, but do you know them?
Have you met them?
I met Tony Robbins.
I had been to a couple of hisevents, , unleashed the power within
and date with Destiny, and obviouslyconsumed a lot of his material.
And I think that kind of hit me at areal pivotable point like that was I
, in my teenage years, very impressionable.
(35:34):
, and I, I think that's probably why I'dsay had one of the, he, he had one of
the biggest impacts and it wasn't justhis message, but it was the right time
at the right place to hear the message.
Mm-hmm.
And what was the message?
Do you remember it?
, really just, , paraphrasinglike personal power.
Yeah.
Like he's got a lot of messages,but basically, , Taking ownership
(35:57):
and, , really taking responsibilityfor your life and what you've got in
it and that you have control over itand you can do something about it.
Yeah.
I worked with somebody before who hadsaid, and I thought this was a brilliant
statement, , that, , , he really likedit when there was some kind of a.
(36:18):
Mess up at the company or whateverand they were looking for somebody
that would, you know, own it.
And he said, I will.
Because it meant that he could go in andchange it and make it better, even if he
wasn't the person that was responsible.
He's going, no, I'm just gonna go aheadand say, hey, I'll take it and you know,
let me make this a better situation foreverybody, for the customers people.
(36:41):
And I reckon you could applythat to all areas of life.
Like that's the, the mindset that Iapproach everything with, regardless
of what goes on in my life.
It's always my fault and I can, thatgives me a chance to take control
of it, even if it's something thatseemingly from the outside looks
looking in, it looks like that.
(37:03):
, oh, that person did thatto you, or whatever.
If it's external of me, I don't reallyhave control over it, but I still
influenced if I chatted with thatperson or I was in the, you know, I
chose to be at that place at that time.
So I, I'm trying to look for theareas that I do have control over.
So I try and takethat, , extreme ownership.
(37:24):
I think, , Jocko talks aboutit as extreme ownership.
Mm, that's good stuff there too.
So what do you wanna be remembered for?
I think being a good dad, going backto that family thing that we talked
about, , from, from that perspectiveand from business perspective, just
(37:44):
helping to solve the problems ofsmall business owners like I, I.
Enjoy being helpful.
And there's some things thatI've been able to focus on that
I've gotten really good at.
, so just being helpful for small businessowners is, is probably, , from a work side
of things, how I'd like to be thought of.
, that's a good place for us to stopand acknowledge our sponsor Transcend
(38:07):
Network, and we'll be right back.
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Transcend Network for beinga sponsor of our show.
(38:33):
And we're back to the second partof our show where we talk about
the future of jobs and industriesand what is 2030 gonna look like.
So this is all opinion, Dave,you don't have to worry about it.
What do you think 2030 is gonna look like?
There's no right or wrong answer.
Mm.
I think obviously a lot is changingand we see it with, , AI and Apple just
(38:56):
released their, , Apple Vision Pro,so there's gonna be a lot of change.
So, Already Covid accelerated a lotof the change with people working
with remote and , the types ofthings that they're working on.
So I don't exactly know what it isgoing to look like, but I know there
are going to be a lot more robotsdoing some of the menial tasks.
(39:21):
And that just like we talked about withsystems and processes, with systems
and processes, it creates space.
For you to be more creative.
So I think that AI will create spacefor humans to do some of their best work
because we're kind of taking some ofthe menimal tasks off and some of those
(39:44):
jobs will just disappear and then, thenthat brain power will get reallocated.
You know, I asked this question of peopleso many times, and I can tell you I get,
it's either the answer that you're giving,that it's gonna make our lives easier, or
it's that people are afraid of, you know?
Yeah.
It could take something away.
So I guess it depends on maybe what,how somebody looks at the glass.
(40:07):
Is it half full or half empty?
Right.
What I think that, , it's not just AI.
We, we have faster workflows andautomations and that makes it so that
yes, just with my phone, I can touchit and send an invoice out to somebody.
That would be great.
I think that there's thisplace where, , people.
(40:29):
Are thinking again, not only is it gonnatake their job away, but it raises some
problems down the road like, well, and,and we'll talk about this a little bit
further, you know, about the ethicsof some of what we're doing here.
So I look forward to that.
There's a couple questions I'll throwin ahead before we get to that ethics,
because it's always interesting here.
(40:50):
So systems are good, those are theautomations that we're currently
experiencing, and we are seeingthat it can make things better.
But what do you think about remote work?
Blended?
What is it like over thereon your side of the world?
I mean, did, is everybodymore remote here?
There's been a movement tobring people back into the
workplace, back into offices.
So what's it like inyour side of the world?
(41:13):
I think it's similar.
Everybody went to workfrom home through Covid.
A lot of people got really comfortablewith that, and now that they're
being asked to come back into theoffice, Businesses are finding
that a challenge and some peopleare looking for blended options.
, for us at Systemology, we werealready remote and have been for a
(41:35):
good number of years, and we builta virtual team around the world.
So oftentimes we look for the best talentat the best rate, , wherever they can be.
So for us, nothing really changed.
Changed.
We didn't really miss a beat.
, but I know.
Yeah, a lot.
There are a lot of businesses that arenow kind of thinking, well, what happens
(41:56):
and where are people more productive?
And they're more productiveback in the office.
Some people feel, so we needto get them back in the office.
So, , yeah, I-I think you can't windback the clock on what Covid did
and how it opened people's eyes.
Like, I feel like thiswork from home for me.
(42:17):
Has been the best kept secret for along time, and I think a lot of people
now are like, oh wow, this is justa different way to think about work.
And , as long as you've got.
A driven person who can move things alongand if they're not sitting right next
to someone, , and there are, you know,different ways that you can make yourself
(42:38):
more productive if you get that right.
I actually think working from home, atleast for me personally, works better.
But I think for some peoplethey also like to go into the
office and maybe it's a case of.
Depends on the individual.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
For me, I, I need the, , and I usethe word need specifically, , the
ability to be around other people.
I like the energy that comes off of it.
(42:59):
I like being able to have morespontaneous conversations.
I find that really hard to do ina remote environment, , because
I have to go through the effortof connecting with somebody.
It's gotta be on a camera, so, youknow, I can make it more experiential.
I think that humans aremade for relationship.
I not think I absolutely believe we are.
(43:19):
And with that, it means that there aretimes when we should be coming together
because we are made for relationship.
So I don't think that you have tobe in the office every single day.
But I do feel that there's a, abetter, a richer environment of
being human with other humans.
When you can see each other, you cantouch each other, like, you know, hugs and
(43:42):
stuff like that and say, it's really niceto, to be able to connect with people.
I work with so many people remote.
I, I feel like I know them as well asif I saw them in person, but I also feel
like there's always something missing.
We just had our first annualretreat did out in the Philippines
(44:05):
and we flew everybody in.
And there are team membersthat I've worked with for years
that I've never met in person.
And yeah, there's definitelysomething that happens when you
meet someone in person and youare able to share the space.
Outside of work, right?
The space when you eat together or whenyou hang out in the evening together, or
(44:27):
you share a drink or whatever it might be,, that you can't really replicate remote.
Yeah, so I, I think there's a bit of both.
Yeah, even with the ability to haveholograms and virtual reality, and, and if
you've watched any avatar movies, you knowthat there's, yeah, well, yeah, you can
have virtual reality, but I also sit hereand go, I don't want my body lying and
(44:50):
what is essentially a coffin in my mind.
So I'm going, well, my, my existenceis out doing something else.
And I go, no, I'd ratherdo that in real life.
So there's these places of, allof these types of, , Technology
that we can have that I go, Idon't know, do I really want that?
You know, because I, I do like being aperson that is experiencing something
(45:15):
for real, not necessarily in a, anaugmented type of a environment.
So what are your thoughtsabout that AR VR?
What do you think?
Yeah, , I am interested to have a.
A great experience with it.
I ha I haven't yet had an experiencewhere I've thought I'd wanna hang
(45:36):
out here, and maybe that will happen.
, you know, you think of somethinglike the Matrix where you fully
hook into this immersive experienceand, , maybe that will change my mind.
But at the moment, using Oculusor some sort of, VR headset
just doesn't quite do it for me.
I haven't tried the new Apple oneson, and maybe it's a hybrid approach.
(45:59):
Maybe it's the augmented reality.
I think it's definitely coming.
, for me it hasn't quite clicked.
It'd be interesting to seewhat happens once it does.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Now I work out of a co-working space.
You didn't know this, and it'sfilled with, , 3d, , simulation
companies, and I have one ofthose too, , that's down there.
And so we often, there, we're surroundedby Oculus, we're surrounded by everything.
(46:23):
There's a guy that works out everymorning with his, , Oculus headset, so.
It is, I can't say we live and breatheit, but we're, we're definitely
drinking the Kool-Aid is the point.
Mm.
So I, I'm always aroundwhatever the latest stuff
is, , that's within our power.
And we do these things calledgame jams where you can go
and experience things at a.
(46:45):
Different level.
That's more of like militarygrade, you know, super high grade
quality of those experiences.
And they're pretty cool.
But I still sit here and go, no, Idon't think anything replaces being
human, but you know, we'll have towait and see, you know, for that.
What are your thoughts about robots?
Because, you know, they bring,you bring people food now and
(47:06):
they do all kinds of stuff.
Yeah, we went, we just got back from atwo week vacation in Japan, and on the
last day we went to a robot cafe wherewe were served by robots shown to our
table, and we'd order on an iPad andthe food would come out on a robot.
(47:26):
And the kids loved it because therobot would dance to Gangnam style and.
It's pretty fun to see, and I cansee more and more the introduction
of robots here in Australia.
Our, , our, like our wagecosts when you're running a,
a business are quite high.
, so I see it in the supermarkets now.
(47:48):
More self checkout.
Options where you're scanning your ownand bagging your own product and seeing
more and more of that automation androbots take over some of those things
because, Yeah, obviously the businessinvests in it once and it continues
to do the job as opposed to having topay someone a wage forever and a day.
(48:11):
And yeah, at some point itbecomes more cost effective.
So I don't think you can fight it.
It's, it's obviously going to happenbecause businesses will look for
the most efficient way to do certaintasks because their mandate is,
To become a profitable business.
And if, if that helps 'em on thatjourney, they'll, they'll take it.
So.
Mm-hmm.
(48:31):
, again, I'm, maybe it goes back to that,what does the future 2030 look like?
I don't see any otheroption than to embrace.
Mm-hmm.
Like, you can't, this is happening.
So you can sit here and say, no, Idon't want this, I don't want this,
I don't want this, I don't want this.
I-it's happening.
So you are better off embracing it.
Yeah.
(48:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Don't be afraid of sit here and go,okay, I'm gonna go for the ride with it.
For sure.
So what about the ethical dilemmas thatyou can come and see out of all of this?
What are your thoughts?
I think the thing I'm thinkingmore and more about is just.
People pretending to be somethingpotentially that they're not, whether
(49:12):
that's going for an interview or arecruitment process and using ChatGBT to
present at a higher standard than theymight actually be able to operate at.
Or, , you know, the more nefarious end,, the scams and things that we see pop
up with people using AI and, you know,Replicating voice and video and all of
(49:40):
this, you know, new generation ai, thatthat is able to replicate someone's
voice and make it sound like someone.
Mm-hmm.
Or deep fake type videos.
Like I see a, just a lot in thatspace, and I have been thinking about
it recently through the lens of.
As a parent and thinking about, youknow, next level bullying and what
(50:03):
that's going to look like when kidsare, you know, leaving a voicemail on
someone else's phone using one of thesevoice generators that makes them look
like they said something when they dids didn't say something, or, I mean,
social media already has, you know Yeah.
An element of that bullying in it, andI just feel like, In the wrong hands.
(50:24):
This is just going to, totake it to a whole new level.
Yeah, it's very dangerous for sure.
That's where I was recommendingyou might wanna watch.
I.
Black mirror.
Yeah.
Yes.
Some of the new episodes are out, areexactly like what you're describing.
And not about the bullying, but, well,maybe a little bit too that's there,
but the generative, , AI for sure.
(50:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Check that one out.
So, best mentoring advice that youwanna share with our listeners.
I think, and I'm biased, but Ithink the best thing that you can
do is start a business if you'rethat way inclined because you
just learn so much about yourself.
You learn so much about people, about theworld, the way that things operate, and
(51:11):
you get that real hands-on experience.
So, I feel that would be thebest piece of advice I could
give anyone is start a business.
I think so too.
The thing is, is that theydon't teach us that in school.
When we go to school about how to thinklike an entrepreneur or even thinking
like a scientist, I mean, you know, that'sessentially what an entrepreneur is.
(51:34):
You go, I see a problem.
How can I fix that problem?
That would be super helpful and I thinkthat would be something that would
be very beneficial is to know how to.
How to have systems inside of there.
So I, I value that very much.
Now how can our listeners contact you?
Because we share this on our contact cardand in the, , description of the show too.
(51:59):
Look, if you're interested in anythingthat I talked about, , with regards to
systems, I just head over to Amazon,get a copy of the book, systemology.
If you're listening to this, you'reprobably an audio person, so grab
the audible that's also available.
, and then if you wanna go alittle bit deeper, down the
rabbit hole, , systemology.com.
And there's links from there tomy YouTube channel to some of my
(52:21):
different social media channels.
, we have a podcast, although it'sbeen on a little bit of a hiatus now
for a little while, but, , at somepoint we'll reactivate that as well.
And all of that's through systemology.com.
That is perfect.
Well, I really wanna thank youfor being a guest on the show
and I'm gonna be, , sharing thisbook, obviously in my social feed.
(52:41):
I have some, I don't know how manyfollowers you have on your LinkedIn.
I'm at about 8,500 right now, and whenI post something out there, I know that
people have really paid attention to it.
So I hope people see you because I'm gonnabe writing about this episode, writing
about your book because I think it's,, something that everybody should read.
(53:02):
Awesome.
Yeah.
Thank you so much for that.
And I'll do, , our best toshare that round as well.
Yeah, thank you.
Well just, , so our listeners know you canlook for this show to air on the 25th of
July, so, , they'll be hearing about it.
That's a little ways out.
I know when they hear it.
But we will also supply a coverof the book so they know what to
(53:24):
look for on Amazon or wherever,wherever they purchase their books.
There it is.
Thank you.
Perfect.
All right, well thanks Dave.
Perfect.
Thank you.
So we wanna thank our sponsor, catfive Studios and thank you to our
production team, producer and editorLeona Blair, and music by Sophie Lloyd.
(53:46):
Be sure to visit Employers4Changeat www.E4C.tech to learn how you
can create real diversity andinclusive culture while scaling
your people for the future of work.
Thank you for supporting the InternWhisperer by subscribing to us on Podbean,
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(54:08):
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