S6 Ep 267 Kamaria Scott - Crafting Ideal Strategies for the Future of Work

Kamaria Scott - A People Leader Crafting Ideal Strategies for the Future of Work

 

I met Kamaria Scott at The Good Network - which stands for Greater Orlando Organizational

Development Network which is an organizational development [OD] professional association.

OD is a science-backed effort focusing on the study and implementation of practices, systems, and techniques that affect organizational change. The goal is to modify a group's/organization's performance and/or culture for best outcomes for the organization and its people.

 

In this episode, you will learn more about how Kamaria chose this career path through blended degrees in IO psychology and Human Resource Development. She shared how her educational degrees helped her develop a curious and problem-solving mindset that taught her ‘What to think about humans’ and ‘How to build learning.’  Kamaria’s example: “You either want people to start doing something they are not doing or stop doing something you don’t want them to do.”

 

Tune in to hear more about what she thinks 2030 will look like, the five words that describe her, and her mentoring advice

Episode Transcript

(00:10):
Hi, my name is Isabella Johnstonand I am the Intern Whisperer.
Our show is brought toyou by Employers 4 Change.
Today's tip of the weekis about authority bias.
This type of bias refers to when anidea or opinion is given more attention
or thought to be more accurate.
because it was providedby an authority figure.

(00:33):
Authority bias is very easy tofind in the workplace because
hierarchies are already in place.
Existing hierarchies make it incrediblyeasy to simply follow the leader.
Even if the leaders ideas aren'twhat is best for the company or their
employees, but putting too much trustand power in leadership roles can limit

(00:56):
employee engagement, hinder employees,professional growth, and ultimately
damage a company's ability to innovate.
So how to avoid this authority ofbias can be difficult, depending
on the culture of a workplace.
One of the best ways to avoid thisbias is to foster an environment
of ideas where others speak up andvoice their own opinions and ideas.

(01:22):
So welcome to the internwhisperer shows all about the
future of work and innovation.
And today's guest is somebodyI've known for quite some
time through the good network.
Yay.
Good network.
Um, we'll explain that later.
Kamaria Scott, she is thefounder and CEO of Enetic.
You guys will be able to learnmore about where she got that name.
Kamaria is an industrial organizational.

(01:43):
Psychologist that is IO, just so youknow, with expertise in learning,
leadership, culture, and change.
And she has newly launchedher own company, Enetic, as
I said earlier, and she helpsorganizations develop people leaders.
Love that phrase and leverage themas partners in times of change.

(02:03):
Kamaria also has a podcast called managerto manager and is working on a book.
And you guys are all going to get tohear all about her now that she's here.
So yay.
Welcome.
That's our sound effects.
Just so you know.
Yes.
That's our sound effects.
Our show is always abouteducation, innovation, and
future of industries and work.
So I lead off the show with tell usfive words and why those five words.

(02:27):
And don't worry, I can prompt you.
So 1st, one determined why?
Well, anybody who knowsme knows I'm a Capricorn.
So, by nature, we aredetermined almost from birth.
If there's a goal that we set forourselves, we are going to reach it.
We are certainly going to keepgoing until it comes to fruition.
So determined.
Yes.
And sometimes people say that aboutmyself and I go, yeah, I'm pretty,

(02:51):
you know, tenacity is one of the otherwords I would use like a bulldog.
I don't know if you get ever comparedto like a pit bull or a bulldog.
No.
So interesting.
Like Capricorns for those ofus who are astrology lovers
like myself, we are goats.
That is our sort of like animal.
And so think of something that's goingto like slow and steady trudge up a

(03:11):
hill and we're going to keep pushingat it and pushing at it until it moves.
So not like super aggressively, butlike, we're going to stay the course
and we're going to keep going untilwhatever obstacles in our way is gone.
I love that.
I love it.
And we know that the word goat alsohas greater, what does it mean?
The greatest of all time.

(03:32):
There you go.
And we are.
There you go.
Exactly.
Okay.
So inquisitive.
Why inquisitive?
Oh my goodness.
Because I always tell peoplelearning is my superpower.
It is, it has gotten me through somany things in my life, but the ability
to ask a question to be curious aboutwhy is something the way that it is.

(03:54):
Why does someone feel that way?
What would happen to cause the situationwhen you can ask the right questions?
You can find almost any answerand you can find any new solution.
So I always come at.
Almost any situation froma place of curiosity.
I want to know all the detailsand the more information I have.

(04:15):
It helps me then to create aclear picture of what the problem
is and what I'm solving for.
Oh yeah.
I've been in enoughwork sessions with you.
Yes.
That is exactly how you tackle things.
You're so professional.
I always, when you and I wereon the leadership team, I
loved working with you so much.
Likewise.

(04:35):
You know, it's so funny because Ihave left a number of organizations.
Let's say goodbye to a number of teams.
And one of the things that has been sortof like humbling, but wonderful at the
same time is when people kind of repeatback to you, your mannerisms or habits
that they've come to know over the yearsand as I was sort of looking through

(04:58):
some of the things that I've collected,there's always this section when people
say, has Kamaria asked you a question yet?
Has she asked you, well,what does good look like?
What are you solving for?
Have you thought about this?
And so to kind of see that common threadthroughout my career kind of makes
me laugh a little bit, but I am theperson in the room who's always going
to be like, why are we doing that?
Tell me how those dots connect.

(05:19):
Hmm.
I remember you doingthat so much, so much.
Yes.
So steadfast.
Sometimes our listeners might think thesewords have, I have the same meaning.
So you might just shed evena little more light because
steadfast determined inquisitivedetermined instead fast for sure.
But they're very different for me.
They are.
Yeah.
I think for me, steadfast is consistency.

(05:41):
It is, you will find that Um, even inturbulent times, I'm going to stay the
course and that and I'm going to saythe course in a way that is calm again.
And I am so grateful tothe teams that I have led.
And that's probably why I spend so muchof my time talking about managers because
I've learned as much from being a managerand leading my own teams about myself.

(06:03):
And so even when the rest of theorganization is going through all the
changes and all the ups and downs,my ability to kind of keep my team
steady and to kind of keep us wherewe need to be is very important to me.
So when I think steadfast, it's notnecessarily about the tenacity to push
forward, but to keep things afloatand keep people even when things

(06:24):
are bumpy and rocky around them.
Yep, so your fourth word aswe go in here is positive.
Yes, it is.
Um, So, I think I am a silver liningkind of girl and, and you'll hear
me talk a lot about change andabout, um, just really being able

(06:46):
to see the bright side of things.
And when you are someone who can alwayssay, okay, well, there's an upside.
I think it helps you get through things.
And so even when I, when I, andI talk sometimes about my, my
father being in the military.
And so we moved around quite a bit.
And so it was always like, you haveto say goodbye to your friends, right?
Within 18 months, oneof you all is moving.

(07:07):
And the bright side of that for meis always, but you're going to get
to go to this wonderful new place.
You're going to get to seelike new people, learn a
new language, eat new foods.
And so I think from that, nomatter what the change is, I can
always find the silver liningand the gift in what's to come.
. Yep.
That's lovely.
I moved around a lot.

(07:27):
I did not realize howmuch we have in common.
So I'm sitting here going,okay, now we're gonna have to
go and have dinner or something.
Talk more, uh, caring.
Why caring?
Um, I'm just a natural nurturer.
I am.
I am.
And I'll talk a lot about leadership,but I'm the kind of the kind of
manager who's going to give you a hug.
Um, like, I definitely am high onempathy and and being able to see

(07:54):
what people are going through.
And giving them the care theyneed to get from where they
are to where they're going.
So, I just, I think that quite oftenin leadership, we will say things
like, it's just business and wetry to make things very impersonal.
But I think for me, I tryto see a whole person.
I try to see.
Again, where they're coming from thesituation through their eyes and I

(08:16):
try to approach a situation with care.
I think as a, as a people leader,you have a duty of care for people
when people are in your charge.
And so whether you are a parent,whether you are a friend, you know,
whenever other people are in any sortof really relationship with people,
you should care about them and howthey feel and how they're going through
and that should guide your behavior.
So hearing.

(08:37):
I like those word choices and I woulddefinitely pick those for you for sure.
Um, so our next question, we diveinto where'd you go to school?
How'd you get started and how'd you endup where you are now starting a company?
Yes.
Oh my gosh.
I love this question.
So first of all, to knowme is to know I am a nerd.
Um, so as I said,learning is my superpower.
So I grew up in Jacksonville.

(08:59):
I went to the University of North Florida,my undergrad degrees in psychology.
And then because I'm also a bit of abutterfly, I applied to one grad school.
Um, and, and I have to tellyou how I got to grad school.
So I worked at AOL in the nineties, right?
I graduated in 1997.
So yes, I am dating myself.
I know.
And in my head, I'm going, there isno way you are way too young for that.

(09:22):
Okay.
Whatever.
I, so I worked for AOL in 1997.
And for those of you whoare old enough to know.
The significance of that.
It's when AOL went from the hourly,like you had to pay for like nine hours
of internet time to the unlimited.
You could be online, youknow, forever for 1999.
Mm-hmm.
. And so I always tell people like,if you, if you know AOL, you know,

(09:43):
like prr prr prr you've got yes.
Right.
And so I worked there that summer.
I was also, I think I wasa freshman in college.
And, um, the experience of working atAOL was simultaneously terrible and
awesome because that, that summer,when we went to the unlimited plan, we
were really not expecting the demandwe were going to have for that service.

(10:06):
So I worked in the call center.
And we were in, for those of youwho know, a call center life is
like, my heart goes out to you.
We were in the like unlimited overtime.
As soon as you got to work, you were inthe red and people were just basically
calling and yelling at us all day longbecause they couldn't get back online.
You know, they wereupset about their 1999.

(10:26):
Someone stole theirpassword, all the things.
Yeah.
But what was so amazing was thatthe culture of working in that
call center was probably one ofthe most fun that I've ever had.
And the most interesting,because even during that time.
They had this culture of we, so,like, our managers would go up and
down the aisle with, like, a comfortcart where you would have, they'd

(10:47):
have, like, do you want pizza?
Do you want a koozie?
Do you want a blanket?
Like, what do you mean right now?
Because there was this senseof we're all in this together.
Like, this situation sucks a little bit.
But we are a team and we'regoing to get through this.
And so you really did feel likeyou were a part of something.
And even though I didn't have thelanguage and the words back then,

(11:07):
that was really my understandingof culture and engagement.
And so it just so happened at the sametime I was in college, um, and discovering
that I was not a numbers girl, I wasfailing principles in macroeconomics.
And so I was like, maybe Ishouldn't be a business major.
And I was talking to one of mypsychology professors and he said,
have you ever heard of IO psychology?
Have you ever heard of IO psychology?

(11:28):
And I was like, no, what is that?
And so he hands me avideotape, a VHS tape.
Wow.
Again, , I'm now becauseyou have a player for it.
So he hands me a VHS tape and itwas the study of people at work.
And I was so fascinated becauseI'm curious about people, right?
Yeah.
We talked about my five words.
Um, I care about the workexperience and so that.

(11:49):
What's going on here?
And I was fascinated about thefact that we are going to spend
more than half of our life working.
It should be a wonderful place to be.
So that's when I decided I wasgoing to go into IO psychology and I
applied to UCF, um, and literally ongraduation day, I got my acceptance
letter that I was accepted to UCF.

(12:09):
And again, don't, if you haveinterns, don't be like me, apply
to more than one grad school.
And so, and so while I was at UCF, I, um,I also knew, cause from working at AOL,
I also was like, well, somebody trainsus, like what, how do I get that job?
So I, I, in the midst of being atUCF and kind of getting my degree in

(12:30):
IO, I also started taking classes intraining because I wanted to know,
like, how do you design learning?
And so simultaneously, I startedlearning how to design training.
And then once I graduated from UCF, acouple of years later, I went to FSU
and I have an advanced degree in adulteducation and human resource development.
So I always tell people the firstdegree tells me what to think.

(12:52):
The second degree tellsme how to build it.
So that's how long story of myeducation, but work experience actually
influenced how I got here today.
And so once I graduated from,from school, and I had some work
experience under my belt, what Istarted to realize was that a lot of
organizations have the same challenges.

(13:13):
Um, they either don't knowhow to develop people leaders.
They don't know how to supportpeople leaders, and they don't
know how to navigate change.
Um, And change management.
Let's talk about that term also.
Why don't you define it for our listeners?
Because sometimes people go, it seemsobvious what it is, change and management,

(13:34):
but in an organization, how does it work?
So I, I don't think of changemanagement as a journey.
I think one of the most interestingthings about when you want people
to do something different and I, andI sum it up like this, you either
want people to start doing somethingthey're not doing, or you want them to
stop doing something they are doing.
And there's a gap.

(13:55):
So it's for me, it's a journeyof where are we today to where we
want, where are we trying to get to.
Right.
And so for me, like, when I started myjourney into change, and it's interesting
because, you know, we use a lot of sortof technical terms and jargon, but a lot
of what I learned about just navigatingchange came from work experience
and just everyday conversations.

(14:16):
So one of my roles.
I worked for Winn Dixie, um, and that'sheadquartered in Jacksonville and I
reported to the COO and one day hesaid to me like, Kamaria, I want you to
help our store directors be differentbecause he really believed that the
service profit chain would help theorganization, that if we had a better

(14:37):
store experience, that our guests wouldhave a better experience instead of
all started with our leadership team.
And so those words of like, helpsomeone be different, That's
really the epitome of change.
Help the organization be different.
That's the epitome of change.
We need, you're doing something today thatfor whatever reason is not working for us.
And we need to figure out how toget to do something different so

(14:57):
we can have a different outcome.
I really appreciate you sharing that.
Definition for sure.
So how did you get startedin your own business?
Then I know that you've worked at alot, you mentioned quite a few places.
I don't know if you want to mentionsome of the other places, because you
went from like a smaller company, AOL,it was pretty good size, and then you

(15:18):
go, you said to Winn Dixie going, whathas that path been along the way and.
To get you to where you are now.
Yes.
So it's interesting.
I have to say it's interesting beinglike a, a late Gen Xer, because I
think a lot of the attributes peopleattribute to millennials, I think
settled into my heart early on.

(15:39):
So, um, I, I, over the years withsomebody who probably spent about two to
three years in an organization and waslike, okay, it's time to something else
again, because I love change, right?
Mm-hmm.
. So when I came out of, um, UCF, Iactually worked for Duke Energy.
Okay.
And I worked in, I worked in, um, Iworked in learning and development.

(15:59):
And that was an interesting experiencebecause I kind of got to watch how
we sort of ran a learning function.
And then when I left Duke Energy,I actually went to work for a
government contractor here in Orlando.
And there I did the mostfascinating work because what we
did was proof of concept training.
So it wasn't like build, youknow, a training product.

(16:20):
It was, let's take a psychologicaltheory and let's actually
see if it actually works.
And I love that because it helps methink about all the theories that
we learned as IO psychologists.
You have to turn that into a viableproduct for an organization in order for
them to be able to do something with it.
And so when you think about a lot ofthe popular training programs that you
may be familiar with, there's always apsychological underpinning behind it.

(16:43):
And so to actually have a jobwhere you can take a theory
and say, is this a real thing?
Let's see what it looks like in reallife was tremendously fascinating.
So from there, um, the great, you know,housing bubble situation happened and
I ended up moving back to Jacksonvilleand I sort of bopped around a little
bit and that's when I ended up workingfor what is now UF Health at the time it

(17:03):
was Shands Jacksonville Medical Center.
And I spent a tremendous amountof time in leadership development,
but more importantly, I washelping our leaders interpret
their employee engagement results.
And helping them understand how thatconnected back to the patient experience.
So that connection between the guestexperience, the patient experience really
started at when I was working in healthcare, because there it's really important

(17:27):
for reimbursements and things likethat to make sure they have a quality,
um, and the health care experience.
I have a question though.
So guest experience and patientexperience, they're the same, right?
They were synonymous terms.
So were you also, I, because I, Iwas wondering, well, was the guest
experience more the family thatwas there, um, to help the patient?

(17:51):
I was seeing it in two different ways.
That's why I was wondering, I don't know,could it have been, they're also a guest?
Um, it could be, we don'ttypically survey the guests.
Like the patient's family.
So a lot of, you know, we thinkabout like, as experience and
patient experience, it's, it'sreally measurement, right.
And who you're choosing.
And so at the hospital, thatwas really my first introduction

(18:14):
to really thinking about.
Whether you call them the patientor the guest experience, but in
the health care system, which isvery specific to it is patient.
And then once you sort of get out and youget into the retail world, it's guest.
Sure.
But it is still the same kindof end user of your product
that you're starting to measure.
And you want to know what thatexperience was like for them.
So, being able to kind of measurethat back and then figure out

(18:35):
what do we need to do from there?
Like, how do we need to ensure thatthe guest experience, the patient
experience is what it needs to be.
That's a lot of what my role was.
Gotcha.
Yeah.
So anyway, go back.
You're continuing on.
So, so when I left, um, when Ileft UF health, I went from, and we

(18:58):
had about 7, 000 employees there.
So I went from 7, 000 employeesto an urgent care company
that had 300 employees.
But the joy of that role wasthat I got to own everything.
So, meaning I had the learning department.
Um, I was the resident fix it person.
Meaning if something was going awry inone of the centers, they would send me out

(19:19):
to figure out what's going on out there.
Like, why, why are ourpatient satisfaction scores
not what they need to be?
Or why are wait times?
How go figure it out.
And again.
Curiosity, right?
I'm the person who's going to go out thereif I'm curious as to what's happening.
Right.
I also have the ability to coachour, our center directors on
their leadership capabilities.
So really anything, learning performance,culture, all of those things.

(19:41):
I had the opportunity to learn inthat little organization, but it
was great because it was an amazingfoundation for how all those pieces
and parts actually come together.
So in most organizations, they're,they're really held by separate people.
And so you kind of have differentviewpoints, you have different priorities,
but as kind of like the singularowner of what do people need to learn?
What does performance look like?

(20:03):
How is that impactingthe patient experience?
Being able to sit in all of that data andthen also being able to say, and these are
the practices that we're going to put inplace so that we can change these things.
It was truly an amazing experience.
Now, I don't imagine this happens withyou, but do, do you think that in any of
these change management strategies, someof the people, the employees will feel

(20:27):
like, Oh my gosh, my, my job is in danger.
I, you make everybody feel at ease.
So I can't even imagine thathappening, but I'm sure that, you
know, those are some thoughts.
They're valid thoughts.
They're valid thoughts.
So.
Thank you.
I'll give you this answer fromhow I lead my personal teams.
Perfect.
So when I think about how I lead myteams, my message to them is always,

(20:51):
I don't want you to be afraid.
And for you not to be afraid, thatmeans you have to be okay and able
to weather whatever comes your way.
So when I talked to them aboutThis crazy new adventure.
We're going on as a team.
We're going to try this thing.
Um, because my team is always the onethat's going to try the new thing.
Um, or I need you to learn howto do something new or different.

(21:14):
What I always tell them is because if youever find yourself in a situation where
you need to make a choice for yourself,I want you fully capable to make it.
And I think that removes a lotof the fear of the conversation.
And I think the other thing for me isthat I always want them to know that.
And this is my love of change, right?
Nothing is designed to last forever.

(21:35):
And so it's okay if thisis not your home forever.
I used to work in an organizationwhere a CEO would say, this is going
to be the last place you ever work.
And I'd like, stop saying that to people.
Um, because I want them to beprepared for the reality of the world.
If you work in corporate America.
There's a high chance thatyour company will be acquired

(21:55):
or acquire another company.
And my function is an HR.
So if we buy a new company, thereare duplicates of us right away.
And so for efficiency sake, someof us are going to, are going home.
And so I don't shy awayfrom that with my teams.
I never try to make it seemlike it's not what it is.
Instead I say, I want you preparedfor whatever decision you have

(22:18):
to make for yourself, and thatmeans I'm going to stretch you.
I'm going to grow you.
I'm going to push you.
And if you say, thisis where I want to be.
I love that for you.
But if you ever find yourself in asituation where this is not where
you want to be, or where you can be.
I want you unafraid ofwhat tomorrow looks like.
That's solid counsel there.
So how did we get to where we are nowand where did that name come from?

(22:41):
Yes.
So after all of these years of reallyhaving these wonderful organizations
as playgrounds, I realized that I justdid the same thing over and over again.
I, it's like we talked about, I helpedthem figure out what is the change, what
are we doing that we shouldn't be doing?
What are we not doing?
What should we be doing?
I help them figure out why it's happening.

(23:02):
I help build a guided experiencefor them to get from where they
are to where they want to be.
I make sure they have theproper learning to do it.
I make sure they have theproper reinforcement and I
make sure they're not afraid.
That's just the easiestway I can describe it.
And after doing this for many, manyorganizations, I ultimately was at an
organization that was a professional,um, services consulting firm.

(23:24):
And when I was able to see from theinside, kind of how they approached
it, I said to myself, I can do this andtaking my own advice, not being afraid.
I said, we're going to turn thisinto a consultancy and we're
going to help more than just theorganization that I'm in today.
We're going to help multiple organizationsbecause no matter where you are, every
organization is going through change.
And that is the constantthat is in our world today.

(23:46):
So just my passion for helpingorganizations is why I was like,
we're going to make it a business.
And so the term magnetic, my, mycompany name came from originally
it was a combination of the wordsengagement and kinetic energy.
And so, um, a large part of my background,something about customer experience,
employee experience, guest experience.

(24:06):
It's really about measuring theexperience and employee engagement
is really the employee experience.
And so this notion that you can't have.
A different outcome untilyou do something different.
So if you know, science, kinetic energyis energy that has to be realized.
I mean, you have to dosomething different.
So it's a combination of youget to engagement by actually

(24:29):
doing something different.
Very nice.
Very nice.
I like that.
Um, Um, your company, since it's newlylaunched, you decided to take on two other
things, which are full time jobs, writinga book, and then also launching a podcast.
Let's talk about both of those.
Determined.
Determined.

(24:50):
It's my first word.
Yes, it was.
So podcast.
I love it.
It's as you, and I'm sureyou know this, right?
It's a labor of love.
Oh gosh.
Yes.
But I love it because...
I think in my two last organizations, Ialso had podcasts internally and they were
wonderful vehicles for helping people.

(25:12):
Listen to stories that inspire them,but also giving them ideas of things
that they could do with their own teams.
So, very functionally, I wanted to beable to sort of cross pollinate that.
There are good people leaders out thereand here are some of the things that
they're doing with their own teams thatyou might want to try with your own team.
So, manager to manager is really it's me.
I have to say it's my love letterto people leaders because it's

(25:34):
me being able to sort of talk to.
Leaders about their work experiencesand for them to share with other
people, what they're doing well.
And what works, I think when you,when you go on LinkedIn, there's
no shortage of like bad managersdo this and bad managers do that.
And if you hang out on LinkedIn longenough, you'll think that it's like a,

(25:55):
you know, uh, just a terrible situation.
But there are really greatpeople leaders out there.
I've personally had great people leaders.
And so I wanted to highlight that.
And also I wanted to maybe shed alittle bit of light on the fact that,
you know, one of my favorite sayings isthat managing is a full contact sport.
Leading people is not easy.

(26:17):
It is a complex.
It's it's a, it's a, it's a reallyimportant piece of this role.
Um, it requires you to be able totap into your emotions and your EQ
and to navigate difficult situations.
So I wanted to share some of thatwith people, because I think the
conversation of helping and enabling.
People leaders starts withunderstanding the experience.
And so that's, that's reallywhat the podcast is for.

(26:39):
The book.
Um, which is again, another labor of love.
Yes, it is.
It's for my other favorite people, HR.
So in all of my roles, I have, um,had sort of like a dual relationship
between HR and operations.
And one of the things that ifyou're listening in HR, you

(27:00):
know, this we struggle with is.
We are charged with helping to changethe organization, but we're not actually
really trained in change management.
And so a lot of times in HR, what we'll dois we will create a new product or a new
process or a new something, and we'll dropoff in the business and it will fizzle.
Right, because there's notransitioning it into that, that

(27:23):
new habit that we have to learn.
Absolutely.
And so for my HR friends, um,this book is really about that.
It's about all the things that wewant to do, but it helps us understand
how do we create those new habits.
How do we make sure thatthe proper training exists?
How do we understand the experience ofthe people that we're designing for so

(27:44):
that when we are rolling something out, ithas a greater chance of being successful?
Because I was very appreciativeand just honestly lucky luck and
happenstance right in my career that.
In my roles for some reason, I alwaysended up a dotted line into, I mean,
when I was at my, my urgent care, Ialso reported to like our, uh, chief
medical officer and our, and our COO.

(28:06):
So I was in the field with, withour, you know, our, our, our centers,
a lot of times in HR, we don'tgo, we don't go into the business.
We kind of design from wherewe are and that doesn't work.
So this is about how we integrate.
How do we understand the experience ofpeople where you're designing experiences
for, and then how do we sort of leveragethat change to make sure that it sticks?

(28:28):
So you mentioned something a littlebit ago, you use some jargon.
Some of our listeners may not know it.
You mentioned EQ.
Go ahead and explain.
Yes, so EQ is your, your emotional quotemakes their emotional intelligence.
It's your ability.
I would say, to be able to readand understand the experience of
other people and to be able tonavigate yourself accordingly.

(28:49):
So, if someone comes into youroffice and they're crying.
That is not time to talkabout expense reports, right?
You have to kind of stop andsay, okay, what's going on.
But even from a people perspective, youhave to also understand yourself and
your own emotion because quite oftenwe are triggered by things as well.
And we have to work through that beforewe can effectively deal with other people.

(29:10):
So being able to kind of read the room,I guess is the easiest way to say it.
And then figuring out how do I respondin a way that creates a positive trigger
for that other person and for myself.
Mm hmm.
Yes.
Very much so.
Okay.
So I think I hit all of the jargonand I went, oh, we've got to go
back and make sure we clarify that.

(29:31):
Because you know, uh, we in the HRfield, we love to use our acronyms
as much as we possibly can, butI don't think it's just an HR.
I think it applies to everybody.
So I appreciate you takingthe time to do that.
Where can people find your podcast?
Um, so they can findit at manager2manager.
com.

(29:51):
Um, that's found the easiest way, but it'severywhere that you can find your podcast.
So whether you are onApple podcasts, Spotify.
Pod being, um, gosh, I almost forgetwhich one, what do I listen to?
Podcast addict.
That's my favorite.
Cause I have, I'm an Android person.
No one judged me.
Um, podcast addict.
So almost anywhere a stitcherthat you find podcasts, you

(30:11):
can find manager to manager.
Yeah, there's over 20.
Over 20 podcast streaming channelsthat at least my show that I'm
fully aware of that it goes out.
So I know yours is the same.
I heart radio.
Yeah.
Amazon that, you know, likejust go through the list.
So many directly to thesource manager to manager.
com is the easiest way to find it.
Unless you're already apodcast addict like myself.

(30:35):
Go to where you could currentlylisten to them and you can find it.
Sounds good.
All right.
Now we're going to go to somepersonal questions to be able
to understand more about you.
What is a favorite quote that you live by?
You don't need permission to be awesome.
It sounds very similar toEleanor Roosevelt who said
you, um, Oh my goodness.

(30:56):
Now it's just liketotally escaped my head.
Just a minute.
Um, Nobody can make you feelinferior without your permission.
Yes.
Very, very similar.
So for me, yeah.
Like you don't needpermission to be awesome.
Yours is way more positive.
You know what?
And I'll tell you what, so likeI, my teams, I think when you work

(31:18):
in, in corporate America, The waythat we evaluate performance, the
way that we give people raises andpromotions, it's almost like you need
someone to be like, yes, you are it.
Right.
And you're waiting for someoneto recognize your greatness.
And what I tell my teams is like, don'tlet me hold you back from being great.
And what that means is, if you havea great idea, I want to hear it.

(31:41):
If you want to try something,you don't need my permission.
You don't need me to validate thatyou're awesome, and I don't want you
waiting around for a piece of paper orsomething to tell you that you're awesome.
Um, you can go out and you can be awesome.
On your own, and I love that because Ithink a lot of us are just waiting for
someone else to give us permission or aboost to be to live our full potential.

(32:05):
And I'm just like, no, you canlive your, you can live up to your
full potential anytime you want to.
And so don't think that youneed the outside world to give
you permission to do that.
What is the hardest lesson thatyou learned that changed your life?
Oh my gosh.
Um, the answer, you know, I was astraight A student, um, not a surprise.

(32:38):
When you get out of school, youlearn that there are no A's.
Oh, really?
The answer is maybe sometimes in gray.
Yeah.
Um, it's, it's really all situational andyou have to learn to really trust your gut
and trust your intuition, uh, on things.
And so when you really want there tobe a clear right and wrong answer, the
reality is in life there often isn't.

(33:00):
And so you've got to makeyour way through what is.
Um, and so learning to dealwith ambiguity for me was really
hard because I want to be right.
I want an A, um, Ilearned there are no A's.
That's a hard one.
I'm really relating to this.
I sit here and go, there'sblack and there's white.
That's right or wrong.
That's it.
That's it.
But we live in a world of gray.

(33:21):
You are absolutely right.
So with that, you have to be okaywith, you mean there's not an answer?
There's not an answer.
Yeah.
And, and I will say this much too, youknow, for, for people who aspire to be
in, in leadership roles and even growinginto being a people leader myself.
You have to make the answer sometimes.

(33:42):
And that's the hard part, right?
You have to be like, the answer is blue.
Even when you don't, you're not sure theanswer and there's a point where you have
to stop collecting information and youcan't go ask everybody under the sun.
You have to just belike, the answer is blue.
So that for me was hard becauseI, I love a good A, but once you
graduate, you realize that, and that'sa good lesson for interns, right?

(34:05):
Like once you graduate, therereally is not a grading scale.
For life that way, you have tolearn to navigate in the middle.
Mm hmm.
Well, what are you most grateful for then?
Motherhood.
Oh, explain.
Oh my gosh.
So, I always tell people if youknew me before I was a mom, I was
a completely different person.

(34:26):
Um, that that gray that learning tonavigate in the great for me came
from motherhood because for anyoneout there who has kids, you know,
that there's there's no book for that.
Whatever pops out is what you got.
And so you have to learn onyour feet, how to make it work.
But, but my son, he, um, had somelearning differences early on.

(34:49):
And so I had to become his advocatefor education and to just make sure
he was able to navigate his K through12 years in a way where he was able to
learn, but also he was able to develophis self efficacy in what he's able to
do and, um, helping him navigate lifemade me a better people leader because

(35:11):
I was able to see people and theirdifferent skills and strengths and what
they're good at in a very different way.
So the lessons that I learned being hismom are what helped me in my work life,
learn to be a better people leader.
And so I'm, I'm forever grateful for that.
They're, they're kind of like back andforth, but, you know, I just, I saw the

(35:31):
world of very, again, a plus kind of way.
And then I had to learn to appreciatethat maybe his talents are different.
Like his, he has the mostamazing perception of people.
He is a talented, budding young chef.
And so if you're somebody who likefollows the, follows the, the, the

(35:53):
mantra of strength finders or, or,um, differentiated intelligences, you
know, that people have multiple gifts.
And so learning to see his helpme to look at other people around
me and see their gifts as well.
And so it just, it justchanged how I deal with people.
Um, and just, again, I think it just mademe a better people leader, a better person

(36:14):
to be able to say, everybody has value.
Everybody has a gift.
Go find it.
Mm.
I like that very, very much.
Then who in your life hashad the biggest impact?
Well, nope, we talked about that.
Nope.
Well, did we know what I was grateful for?
Yeah, yeah, no.
Yeah.
Because I'm sitting here feelinglike it crossed over into your son.
Actually, who in your life has had thebig, because that's what it sounds like,

(36:37):
but I don't know, maybe it's not him.
Surprisingly, it's not.
It's my dad.
Interesting.
To know, to know me is to haveheard one of my dad's sayings.
Um, So I think, you know, so, so muchof who we are as humans, I think does
come from, you know, our upbringingand our parents and our family life.

(36:58):
So I think one, um, I'm gratefulto my dad for being in the military
because I was exposed to so manydifferent ways of life early on.
But my dad also, I think, set an examplefor me of, again, that steadfastness.
Like he's just somebody whodoesn't easily get flustered.

(37:20):
And so when you feel chaotic,I could always go kind of talk
to my dad and he'll, you know,have some words of wisdom.
And I'll tell you what kindof a funny esque story for me.
So I was in college.
And, um, I had one of those, like, me andmy boyfriend broke up kind of moments,
and I was also on my college dance team.
And so my, my beloved dance teamsisters were like, we're gonna, we're

(37:43):
gonna, we're gonna drink and I, um,for the first time in my entire life.
Unfortunately, I had too muchto drink and I was miserable.
I mean, I had, I had dry knees.
It was terrible.
The next day I went home andI told my dad what happened.
Um, and you know, he didn't yell at me.
He just, you thought he would, no, Ididn't think he would like he didn't,

(38:06):
but he also didn't scold me either.
That's good.
You know, we, we tend to getto lecturing pretty quickly.
Yeah.
Um, but instead he looked at me and hesaid, I bet you won't do that again.
And that was the conversation.
And what I loved about that was.
You know, I did not everdo that again, right?

(38:27):
It was, it was more so of a, there'sa lesson to be learned and everything.
And sometimes life willteach you things, right?
And, but you have to create a safe spacefor other people to be able to come to
you and tell you when they messed up.
And that's the kind of person thatmy dad is like, I, when I needed
guidance, when I needed questions, Ididn't understand things about life.
I could kind of always goand talk to him about it.

(38:49):
And he helped me make sense of it.
And I think by being that person forme, he set the example that I follow
of, you know, being that person whowants to help you make sense of what's
happening around you, who wants tomake it okay for you to make a mistake.
And be able to say, okay,well, we learned from that.
We won't do that again.
Now let's move on.
So again, I think just the influenceon how I see life and how I

(39:12):
approach people came from my dad.
And to be honest, probably iswhat I passed on to my son.
I think just about every parent has saidthat, because as soon as you were telling
me about how your dad said it, I went,Oh my God, I have heard my dad say that.
I don't know how many times, youknow, and I don't know if it's a dad
saying, obviously not you're a mom,but I definitely have heard it my

(39:34):
fair share of times as the child ofparents, and I'm pretty sure that
they heard their parents say it.
Because I, you know, and, and, and somuch of like the way that I approach.
Work situations and changesituations comes from real life.

(39:55):
And I think for most of us, and sowhen you start talking about things
like psychological safety and creatingthose spaces for people at work,
where they can come and say, Hey, Ineed to tell you something, right.
Thing that you think is great.
It's terrible.
Oh yeah.
Right.
Like you have to be able to create this.
Space for people where or even,Hey, I went to this meeting and

(40:17):
it was a flaming dumpster fire.
You have to be able to create thatspace for people where they can
come to you and they can admit whensomething is wrong or if it fails.
And I'll tell you, like, one of myteam, um, one of my favorite things
about, um, a team that I led was wewere, and this is pre pandemic, right?
Maybe 2, 3 years before pandemic.
We were experimenting withvirtual instructor led training.

(40:39):
And so we were using a different, a new,um, learning classroom, virtual learning
classroom, and one of the things that wedidn't understand was if people joined
using their telephones, or if they joinedusing computer audio, that we couldn't
put them into breakout rooms together.

(41:00):
So we had designed this whole thing,you're going to go into a breakout
room, you're going to have a greatdiscussion, it's going to be fabulous.
We get to the first breakout, we're like,why are half the people still in the room?
It's because we did not know this.
Right.
And so on the fly, we're fixing it.
But jokingly afterwards, we calledthe dumpster fire and my team
made teams backgrounds that sayto have a dumpster fire free day.

(41:22):
But the, the ability to laugh ata mistake to see that no, this is
something that none of us caught.
And laugh about it, make it a safe space.
Someone on my team said to me,you know, I used to hate change.
I used to hate new things, butnow I don't hate it anymore.
And it's, it's that safe space.
It's the, we made a mistake.

(41:42):
Nobody died.
It's fine.
We fixed it and we move on.
So I think, you know, being able tounderstand sometimes not just the words
or things that people are telling us,but like, what is it, what is it really
queuing in us, what is it embedding in us?
And how does that turn up later inlife to create that for other people?
Yeah, you're right.
It always goes back to somethingwhere they were either shamed or

(42:03):
there was something where theywere really embarrassed, whatever.
I was doing the same thingtoday with my little team, my
little intern marketing team.
And I said, so I can releasethe bee anytime I want.
But Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I want you guys to know I love you.
I will fight for you.
I like you personally, but Ican also be angry and you didn't

(42:25):
do this and this made me angry.
And I just want you to know that what isthe worst thing that's going to happen?
Very similar language as yourself.
You know, do you thinkI'm going to not like you?
Well, that's not going to happen.
You guys are the Best people I'veworked with in social content.
I'm so proud of them.
So they, one of them was smiling at me thewhole time and I was going, this is great.

(42:47):
This is exactly what I want to see.
And the other one's like this.
His head's down.
And I went, Hey, hey, look up here.
It's okay.
It's okay.
You don't have to hang your headdown like you're ashamed or anything.
No, you're an athlete, you know,shake it off and keep going.
And he, he got there and you know, I wasgoing, all right, this is how I feel.
You're doing the same thing.

(43:08):
We do the same thing, different words,different scenarios, but safe space.
People always need that.
How much grace do youask for in your own life?
Exactly.
That right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think, and I think for me.
Giving people grace, giving thembecause, and this is where it
intersects with change for me.

(43:29):
You are always asking someone todo something differently or better.
And so you have to give them gracethat whatever that new thing is,
or that better thing is, there'sa learning curve with that, right?
We don't, we don't jump out of bedin the morning, great at everything.
And I'll tell you, I think youand I both have interns, me,

(43:49):
uh, marketing terms this summer.
Yes.
And.
Same program.
Yep.
Same program.
So, you know, with my marketing attorney,we, we have a great time because, um,
I, I joke, I'm a complete old lady.
I know nothing about my socials.
She knows everything, but I, I giveher the space to try something and
she, she shows me something and Ilook at it and I might say, okay,

(44:12):
well, tell me, tell me what you were,what you were aiming for, like what
were you trying to achieve with this?
Right.
And we'll, we'll sort of talk itthrough, but the more I, instead of,
Really giving her feedback by ask herquestions about what was her intention?
Like, how did she get here?
Okay, let's talk about this.
The more I see her willingness to trysomething different to try something new.

(44:33):
And so it's really thinking aboutbeing intentional about what you're
trying to create in the other person.
And so if you're trying to, goingback to our conversation about EQ, if
you're trying to create a space wherepeople feel like, I have this idea.
I don't know if it's going to work,but I want to give it a chance.
They have to say, well,if it doesn't fall down.

(44:56):
If it doesn't work, if it does falldown, Kamaria is not going to be mad.
Kamaria is going to say,well, at least you tried.
And what did you learn?
And how can I help you do it againdifferently or better next time?
And to that extent, I have seenmy team do things that are wildly
beyond what I have asked of them.
So I have, I had someone on my team.

(45:17):
So on my team, um, on teams, I haveled everyone gets a passion project.
And so my, my parametersfor fashion projects are.
It has to be something that benefitsboth you and the organization.
So you can't say, I'm going todo a cooking show unless there's
something related to what we do here.
That's right.
If the finance works out, thenthe finance needs a cooking show.

(45:38):
You're their girl.
And so I had someone on my team, um, who.
But other than that, it has to be fortheir own personal development as well.
And I don't give them any parameters.
I don't, I don't give them timelines.
I don't give them anything.
I just want to say at the end ofthe year, I want to know how you
developed yourself and what did you do?
So I had someone on my team and she,I didn't even know she could code.

(46:01):
So I said, you know, we had, um, anLMS learning management system and the
learning management system that youcreate like spaces where people could,
you know, come and talk to one another.
And so everybody, as soon as we wrote offthe LMS, everybody wanted a space, right.
And our team of like, you know,two people trying to create spaces.
And so for her passion project, shecreated an automatic space builders.

(46:23):
We think about like building a website,how we have all the website builders that
you can just put together on her own.
She coded a space builder.
I couldn't even, I first, Ididn't know she could code.
Right.
Right.
But when she showed it to me, I wasso blown away that I was like, this is
beyond what I could have asked you for.

(46:44):
But in order for her to even take thatchance, she had to know that I was going
to give her space to do it, that if itdidn't work out, because then what I
did was I was like, oh, my goodness,we need to like, figure out how to have
our customers learn how to use this.
This is a tremendous benefit to us asan organization, because instead of us
now having to take requests to buildthese spaces for our internal customers,

(47:06):
they can build them themselves andyou can just teach them how to use it.
But giving her that space to try somethingdifferent, she had this idea in her head
and she wanted to see if it can work.
That's where the psychologicalsafety comes in, that if it
doesn't work, okay, nothing lost.
I say, at the end of the year, I'm notgoing to say your performance was terrible
because your space builder didn't work.

(47:27):
I'm going to say you tried something,you found a business problem, you
solved for it, or at least you tried to.
In my book, that's a win.
Love it.
We're going to take five, uh,just a few minutes to acknowledge
our sponsor, Transcend Network,and we will be right back.
Transcend Network helps early stagestartup founders find product market
fit through weekly experiments, receivefundraising support, and build a global

(47:53):
founder investor network for ed techand the future of work technologies.
The Intern Whisperer is affiliated withEmployers for Change, and we thank them.
Transcend Network for beinga sponsor of our show.
And we're back in the second half,a little like three quarters of
our show here, but um, well, onequarter I think left because this

(48:15):
was really a good conversation.
It was so rich with insight as tohow people think and how you can use
some psychology in the workplace.
I know that my listeners aregoing to love this like crazy.
So you gave lots of great tips.
What are your thoughtsabout the future of 2030?
What is it going to look like?

(48:35):
Gosh.
So I think from a work perspective,it's going to be heavily
augmented with technology.
I think if you are not someonewho is tech savvy in some
way, you're going to struggle.
Um, but I will say this much.
I'm very excited as well, because Ithink technology is going to elevate
the capabilities of what people can do.

(48:57):
And so what might have felt like alimitation that someone has in, you know,
just some, some areas, I think technologyis going to buffer them in a way.
So I think there's going to begreater potential in what people can
do career wise, aided by technology.
Hmm.
Interesting.

(49:18):
All right.
Well, thoughts aboutremote blended on site.
What do you think the workplaceis going to look like 2030?
Remember 2030?
2030.
Um, So I think it's going tobe, I know people are going to
say it's going to be hybrid.
I think to a large extent, it's goingto be hybrid, but I don't even think
it's necessarily about where peoplewill be sitting as much as how they

(49:41):
will be relating to one another,because I think the conversation
about, you know, hybrid and on site,the reality is, even when you go into
the office, you're working remotely.
So, if you think about matrixorganizations, which a lot of
organizations have gone to, and I'lljust use another one of my work examples.
I went to work for, um, BNY Melon whenI got there and Lake Mary, where we

(50:02):
live, I supported Lake Mary on site.
And so my clients were on site, mytrainings were on site, and then we
went to a matrix organization, and I nolonger supported anybody in that office.
So what does matrix,matrix organization mean?
So that basically means that youmight be one person, but you're
not assigned to one business unit.
You might have different clientsacross different business units.

(50:24):
And so you have like one pieceof something, but it spokes into
very different business units.
So no one kind of owns theirone particular resource.
You basically support multiple things.
And so, because of that, alot of us support multiple
projects for project teams.
We're not necessarily in whole teamsand functional teams the way we
might have been in previous years.

(50:46):
And so you can go to the office.
And so I think what we're going tosee in that is we're going to see
more people, you're like, Oh, yeah, Ithink we're going to see more people
thinking about how they work with peoplethat are not where they're located.
I think that's a bigger issue or somethingto work through people who there is

(51:10):
some technology in the middle of them.
Thank you.
Regardless, as to whetheror not distributed more more
distributed, whether or not they'reworking in an office or not.
I think that's that's that's important.
Gotcha.
Yeah, I would agree with you.
I enjoy the ability to go to anoffice because I'm one of those types
of individuals that I get energyfrom being in a different space.

(51:33):
I also like the separation of whereI lay my head and where I work.
I want them to be different.
I need the transition time.
When I was in COVID, Ifelt like I was in jail.
Oh my goodness.
And see, I was the opposite.
Oh, my goodness.
Like I, and several peoplehave said this, right?
I felt like I was preparingfor COVID my whole life.

(51:54):
I was so excited.
I, so I, and I'll tell you,I went the other direction.
So I started working remotely, gosh,five years before the pandemic.
And so again, I fullyworked in office one day.
I fully worked in office untilthey were like, well, you don't
support, um, this building anymore.
And that for a while again, I sat withthe same people, but it was interesting

(52:15):
because we didn't interact with each otherbecause we didn't work together anymore.
Technically.
And the other part of it wasthe office itself had changed.
So, if you and I'm going to date bothyou and I, um, you know, if you think
about when we first started working,you had like, you might have gone into
an office where you had an office.
I remember my first, like, role withthe City of Jacksonville, I had my own

(52:36):
office with my own little table, andthe door was closed, and then we were
like, oh, we're going to tall cubes,and then from tall cubes, we went to
mid sized cubes, to now we have openfloor plans, and if you think about
people and their individual differences,for some people, that's fantastic.
For someone who's ADD likeme, that is a nightmare.

(52:57):
So all the different distractionsof not having my door or not
having my HiCube made work in theoffice almost unbearable for me.
And I think about when the discussionwe have around when and how people
work, and even 2030, I think it's morearound the personalization of work and
the personal experience that peopleexpect and the level of flexibility

(53:18):
to decide what works for them.
And decide what they need, eitherbased on their family life or on
their personal preference, becausewhere you may prefer to have people
around you and get energized from it.
I like it in small spurts, but when Iget to doing instructional design work,
I would prefer to be absolutely quiet.
I don't want to hear my neighbors talking.

(53:39):
So I think figuring out how tocreate a personalized work experience
where people can think about whatthey need to be at their best.
And figuring out how to do that atscale in an organization is going to
be one of our greatest challenges.
There's been a lot of discussionabout having workplaces that are
just geared more towards gathering.

(54:01):
You know like community areas andconference rooms and using things in
that way instead of having offices Ialways like to go away into a place like
what you're describing quiet a quietplace to do my work But it's weird.
I like to have my either like a movie.
I've seen a million times Just playingin the background because music I

(54:22):
get into too much, but if I just hearthat chatter, you know, of people
talking, I do not listen to the movie.
I just use it to stay super focused.
A little bit of white noise.
I do the same thing.
My son is always like, areyou watching that again?
I'm like, I'm not really watching it.
It's just on.
But to your point about, youknow, the, the workspaces.

(54:42):
So I think.
When there's a purpose for peopleto gather, let them gather.
Right.
So again, I, I led aremote team pre COVID.
I have somebody, I had somebodyin Wisconsin, I had somebody in
Texas, I had somebody, you know,so I, I've never really led an
onsite team for most of my career.
And for those, for thepeople that did live here.

(55:07):
You know, when I wanted us to gather,I would put like a bat signal in our
team's channel old school bat Batman.
Yeah, it was that signal.
And that basically meantwe're going to the bat cave.
And that's what we called going to theoffice because we, that meant we would,
we would come here when we needed to docollaborative work when we needed to be.

(55:29):
Together to put our real life stickynotes on the wall when we wanted to,
you know, iterate something really fast.
So if we had a reason to come together.
And be together, and thatreason could be bonding.
So I've been flying in people fromother locations, because I do think
that as a remote team, you need tosee your team at least once or twice

(55:49):
a year to book to form that bond.
But that that's what the purpose was.
So gathering with purpose isreally important, but there's
no, there is no purpose.
And I'm going to say this, there'sno purpose and you seeing in a
cube and me sitting in a cube.
Just to work on our individual work.
So if that's yourpreference, I'm fine with it.
But I wouldn't, I wouldn'tmandate it for anybody.

(56:09):
Yeah, it's more about preferenceat that point in time.
Yep.
What ethical dilemmas do you foreseecoming up out of anything that's in AI?
So let's combine those two together.
AI.
How do you want to, how you everwant to define it is fine, but
what are the dilemmas that can comeup, but what are the good things?
Yes.

(56:30):
Um, so I want to start with what Isee as a challenge even today, and
that is authenticity of expertise.
Yes.
Yep.
Yep.
That for me is one of the things thatI am most concerned about that I'm
keeping my eye on because, you know,in the space where a lot of us lean,

(56:52):
um, lean on thought leadership toknow who to follow, who to believe,
what to trust, what to understand.
You don't actually have thatexpertise, but you can go to your
favorite AI empowered, um, youknow, platform, type in a couple of

(57:14):
prompts and voila, you can, you know.
For them that you have an expertise, itmakes it more difficult for people to
make informed decisions about if theyare buying a service from someone who
truly knows and has the experience toaccomplish what they need to get done.
Right?
And so that, for me, is a real fearbecause I don't know if it's just

(57:35):
I'm a purist in some things, but Ithink there's a lot of and I think
you see it even now on LinkedIn.
Right?
Everybody can.
If your AI can produce your newsletter, amI really getting your thought leadership?
Right.
Or am I getting some thought leadership,but maybe not, it's not a reflection
of what your capabilities are.
And then I think the other thing for meis assuming sort of taking what you get.

(57:59):
As gospel and not understandingthat it is really just an
amalgamation of what's out there.
So it's not just because it spitit out at you doesn't make it true.
Right.
Real.
But there's bias, even in those things.
And I think sometimes wedon't think about that.
We just think that, Oh,it spit it back at me.
So this must be what it is.

(58:20):
It's kind of like everybodygoes, it's on the internet.
It must be true.
It is not true.
It is not true.
Not everything on the internet is true.
It is the same for open AI oranything that you're doing.
It is just faster, pulling togethereverything that we put out there
and putting it, yes, there you go.
I can't go policy.

(58:41):
So I think, It has to be true.
It has to be true.
And so that's, and so those arethe things I think for me that are
always top of mind, because I look atsomething and I'm like, Oh, that looks
very, it doesn't look nuanced enough.
Like it's your, like, I don't seeyour experience reflected in that.
I see a very generic level.
Type of things, you know, whatworries me though is kids using it

(59:03):
people that are growing up with thisand they do I sit here and go are
they gonna know how to research onlyif we reinforce that as a skill?
Yes, AI produced this now go research itand make sure that you fact check it and
look for the information And you knowwhat for me what's really hard about
that is so I see generational differencesas I as I I'm going to be completely

(59:28):
about this because I watched my sonand I watched his generation and, and
I think what people have to understandis that there is a difference between
information, understanding and expertise.
And so, you know, the more andmore we have information at our
fingertips, it makes it feel likewe're wise and we know things.
But a lot of knowing things comesfrom the experience of something.

(59:50):
So I can look at a situation, youcan look at a situation, and I can
say, let me give you 10 reasonswhy that's not going to work.
Or let me give you 10 reasonswhy it is going to work.
Right.
Because I'm drawing upon a personalexperience that I know that's
more than just a surface levelunderstanding of what I'm looking at.
Yeah.
And I think what happens is wehave this sort of false confidence

(01:00:13):
because we can Google it.
We can look it up that we know somethingthat we honestly do not actually know.
And so when I think about myson and his friends and I watch
them, they have an impeccableability to search and find right.
They can search and find the answer.
Doesn't mean it's the right answer.
It's the right answer.

(01:00:34):
But when I, when I, when youget to what do you know, that's
a different conversation.
And so I, I like to liken it to like myson in cooking, he, he knows how to cook.
I know how to follow a recipe, right?
Those are two different things.
And so the more he practices, themore, the better he gets, the more

(01:00:55):
his expertise automatically tellshim what works, what doesn't work.
Me Googling will never give methat firsthand understanding
until I go through it.
I, I totally agree.
So that's what I think we have to help,you know, a younger generation understand
that just because you have an amassof information at your fingertips,

(01:01:16):
there still has to be an accounting ofexperience and you have to go do things.
And once you do that, you canknow something in a different way.
That's more than surface level.
You know, how to apply whatyou've learned, you know, when
you're looking at something.
And I think that for me is eventhe thing with AI today is I can
look at something and I can say.

(01:01:38):
I don't think that's the right answerbecause all these experiences that I've
had will tell me why it's not the same.
And when you think about,again, my experience as an IO
psychologist, we love theory.
We love high level.
It should work like this.
The one thing that you know, asan IO psychology is that when
you get into the real world,it often never works like that.
And so I think that's the issuewe're going to have with AI is

(01:01:58):
that we take it and we think,Oh, we have all this information.
We know all this stuff, but whenit comes to putting into practice
and making it real intangible, Ithink that's where we'll struggle.
I would agree with you.
Yep.
Um, best mentoring advice that youwant to share with our listeners.
Best mentoring advice.
Stay curious.

(01:02:21):
That's solid.
I mean, yeah, stay.
Stay curious.
I think, and, and I know, I don'tknow who to attribute this to.
I know it didn't come from Ted Lasso.
I know somebody else said it,but be curious, not judgmental.
I think that's really it for me.
I always am encouraging people to ask why,ask how, ask what, ask why, ask how, um,

(01:02:50):
you know, be curious about other people.
Because I think as long as you havecuriosity, You're searching for answers.
You're not assuming you have the answerbecause quite often we don't and when
you start with questions and you askenough of them, then you can see the
big picture of what you're solving for.
So I would say, just remain curiousand remain open because even I would

(01:03:10):
say curiosity helps drive understandingof other people's experiences.
I think what you just shared is beautifulin the way that you just wrapped it in
to just because it's all out there, it'sat our fingertips, you know, doesn't mean
that it's, you have to experience it.
So if you are curious, you're not going totrust everything that comes out of chat.

(01:03:34):
You're not going to trust everythingthat you see, you know, no matter
what the AI is, you will stay curiousand then that will keep you relevant.
That will keep.
You're fresh.
That will make you stay just in touch.
Yeah.
Cause I think the last thing I will say ismy curiosity is driven by an understanding

(01:03:56):
that my view is simply a view.
It's not the view that is correct.
And as long as you understand that,as long as you understand that.
I think you'll be able to navigatelife really well, because when you
realize that your view is just aview, you want to say, well, what
does it look like from over here?

(01:04:16):
What's it look like fromwhere you're sitting?
And the more you can ask that, then youcan, again, you can have that full view
of, well, what, what is the problem?
What are we solving for?
What is someone else's experience?
How did, how did it get there?
There's a multitude of questions.
And that's, I think that's wheregood solutioning comes from.
I agree.
I love our meetings.

(01:04:37):
I do love her.
I it's been a while since we hadthis, I think it was Christmas last
year, but it's just like, so time toalways have some of these meetings.
How can our listeners contact you?
Yes.
Um, well, you can alwaysreach out to me on LinkedIn.
I love people.
So, um, there are three KamariaScott's in the United States.
You can find two of us on LinkedIn.

(01:04:58):
Uh, I'm the one that focuses onleadership, learning culture and change.
Uh, you can always find meat my website, eneticlps.
com.
Um, the Instagram channelis manager to manager.
So any of those ways podcast, Oh, and thepodcast, which is also manager to manager.
I like to keep it consistentas another way to find me.
So those are all the waysthat you can reach out.

(01:05:20):
Awesome.
Well, I really appreciate it.
Thank you so much forbeing a guest on the show.
I have just, I've been really gladto pull some people from Good Network
and I'm going to continue to do that.
You know, they've been suchawesome people as you well know.
That's how we originally met.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, thank you.
And for our listeners, this will, foryou, this show will air on September 19th.

(01:05:45):
That sounds so far away.
It sounds so far away, but it isreally, really right around the
corner and your site will be like upand running and be getting so, and
so many downloads on your podcast.
You're going to be getting so much.
It'll be just like, Oh yeah.
That's right.
Thank you for having me as a guest.
I really appreciate this.
And if you know of a wonderful peopleleader that wants to share their

(01:06:10):
story, have them reach out to me.
I'm always here to tell thestory of great people, leaders,
and I do know quite a few.
Yep.
Yep.
Thank you so much.
Thank you to our sponsor, Cat5Studios, and our video production
and editing team, Gabe LaPorte,Tommy Myers, and Andrew Piggott.

(01:06:32):
Music is by Sophie Lloyd.
Visit Employers 4 Change at www.
e4c.
tech to learn how you can createreal diversity and inclusion.
Inclusive culture while skillingyour people for the future of work.
We also want to thank you for supportingThe Intern Whisperer by subscribing

(01:06:52):
to us on Pod Beam, our Employers4 Change YouTube channel, or your
favorite podcast streaming channel.
And please be sure to leave usa comment and share the show.