November 16, 2023 • 49 mins
Ever thought about how compromise can be the poison pill for your intimate relationship? We tackle this provocative question as we challenge the traditional relationship advice of constant compromise with our esteemed guest, Dr. Alexandra Stockwell, the Intimacy Doctor. Together, we dissect the dangers of passionless relationships and explore the pivotal role of emotional intimacy in keeping the flame alive in long-term bonds.
Dr. Stockwell guides us on this journey to deepen emotional connections. Tune in to uncover how judgment-free curiosity can create a safe space for your loved ones to open up and share their deepest thoughts and feelings, fostering connection, creativity, and diminishing disconnection.
The closing segment of our conversation takes an intimate turn, focusing on communication about sex. This often awkward and tricky topic is handled with sensitivity, with Dr. Stockwell providing a practical guide on initiating and navigating this crucial conversation outside the bedroom. Tune in now!
ABOUT Alexandra:
Alexandra Stockwell, MD, aka “The Intimacy Doctor,” is widely known for her ability to catalyze immediate and profound shifts in high-achieving couples who want it all–genuine emotional connection, sensual passion, and erotic intimacy.
A physician coach and Intimate Marriage Expert, Alexandra is the best-selling author of
“Uncompromising Intimacy,” host of The Intimate Marriage Podcast, as well as a wife of 27 years and a mother of 4. Couples who work with her discover the key to passion, fulfillment, intimacy, and success isn’t compromise–it’s being unwilling to compromise--because when both people feel free to be themselves, the relationship is juicy, erotically alive, and deeply nourishing.
For over 20 years Alexandra has shown men and women how to bring pleasure and purpose into all aspects of their relationship: from the daily grind of running a household to intimate communication and ecstatic experiences in the bedroom–all while achieving extraordinary professional results. She offers private relationship and intimacy coaching, group programs, and independent study courses.
FREE GIFT from our Guest:
The first chapter of Dr. Stockwell's book, "Uncompromising Intimacy." The chapter is called "Is Companionship as Good as it Gets?" about the four main types of relationships and how to have the one you want. Get it here.
CONNECT with Alexandra:
Website | Instagram | Facebook | LinkedIn | Youtube | Tiktok
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Don't forget to rate & review!
Email me and tell me what you think: christina@christina-smith.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back, shifters, to another episode of
the Inviting Shift podcast.
I am super excited todaybecause the topic we talk about
today is something that hitsjust about all of my clients,
especially if they've beenmarried for some time.
And Dr Alexandra Stockwell ishere and she is going to talk to
(00:21):
us about rekindling thatintimacy, getting that intimacy
back in our lives.
So maybe your kids have nowleft the coop, you have a little
bit more time, but you'rerealizing, wow, this person next
to me kind of feels like astranger, or we're not as
intimate as we used to be.
This is going to be theconversation for you.
(00:42):
So welcome, alexandra.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
I'm glad to be here and get right to it, because our
topic is wonderful.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Yeah, tell us a little bit about you, because
you're a little bit more expertthan we might think.
I love your Instagram is theIntimacy Doctor, so we are
talking to the right person here, folks.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Yeah well, I'm the Intimacy Doctor.
Because I am a physician, Idon't practice medicine anymore.
I've transitioned full-time tobe a relationship and intimacy
coach and an intimate marriageexpert.
I myself have been married for27 years.
My husband and I have fourchildren, and so that is
(01:27):
certainly one of my wonderfulresources for the work that I do
, as well as all of the formaltraining.
I have written two books.
One is called UncompromisingIntimacy, and the other one,
co-authored with a friend ofmine, is the Invitation Vital
Conversations About Menopause.
(01:49):
I also have a highly rankedpodcast, the intimate marriage
podcast, and I invite all of youto listen to it and let's see
what else should I say about me?
Oh, here's the most importantthing as context for this
conversation.
Far and away the most commonrelationship advice that is
(02:11):
given is that if you want agreat marriage, you've got to
learn to compromise.
You've got to be good atcompromise, because compromise
is the way to be happy.
That is completely wrong.
If you want a pleasant, bland,conflict-free, passion-free
(02:34):
relationship, compromise is yourfriend.
But then you end up in exactlythe kind of situation you
described just a few moments ago, christina, where the kids
leave home, you have more time,but everything has relatively
(02:54):
fizzled out, either completelyor mostly.
So the antidote to that whichwe'll of course, get into I
refer to as uncompromisingintimacy, and what I mean is not
that you are uncompromising inthe sense that you get your own
(03:15):
way.
This is not some variation onmy way or the highway.
It's that where compromise iswithholding who you are, your
desires, what is going on insideyou and sometimes even around
you, but withholding significantaspects so that your partner is
(03:38):
more comfortable Going forpizza when you want Chinese, I
don't know, storing the shoes inthis closet rather than that, I
mean, these can be minor thingsand what house you live in,
major, what movies you watch.
If you are in the habit of justwithholding that so that your
(04:02):
partner is more comfortable inorder to keep peace, that
essentially is toxic for passion.
And when you learn to reallyexpress yourself, to know
yourself and express yourselfand share the truth of who you
are and what's alive inside in away that your partner can hear
(04:25):
it, that is the foundation forsensuality, intimacy, sexuality
and erotica liveness thatexpands with every year.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
I love that I'm taking all of that in, because
it is the thing that we'realways told is like compromise,
compromise, and trying to thinkabout my own marriage, and it's
like we don't always compromise.
We kind of look at a situationand tell our own truth about it
(05:00):
and then we try to figure outwhat is it that you need out of
this and what is it that I need,and then how do we both get
most of that or at least some ofthat?
But I love that you said that,because it is like that's how we
get to be strangers is becausewe're not really speaking up for
what we want or givingdirection.
(05:21):
And I do know several women whoit seems like they're always
walking on eggshells, whichmeans that you know they really
go to that point of like peoplepleasing and not really asking
for what they want, and I cansee how that could be a real
intimacy problem.
But what we're seeing is thatour intimacy starts outside of
(05:43):
the bedroom.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
By the way, folks, right yeah, in fact, I really
enjoy saying that, when it comesto a one-night stand, you don't
even have to know yourpartner's name in order to have
a really great experience.
It's certainly not guaranteed,but it is possible.
(06:04):
But when you're married or in along-lasting committed
relationship, it's really notpossible to have fantastic
sexual intimacy withoutemotional intimacy, and one way
to remember that well is that,basically, in the context of a
(06:27):
long-term relationship, anythingwhich isn't sex functions as
foreplay.
It either brings you a littlecloser together or a lot, or
pushes you a little or a lotfurther apart.
And I think the thing that is soimportant, particularly for
somebody who is wanting tograduate from people placing, is
(06:53):
it's important to remember thathuman beings do not have some
magic switch that gets to befound.
So if you are in the habit ofnot being fully honest, not
being fully transparent aboutwhat you want, just going like
(07:15):
essentially responding, lettingyour partner set the tone, even
if they don't want to, even ifthey want you to be more
confident and present and trueto yourself, but you're in the
habit of withholding who, youare, leaving things unexpressed,
accommodating and compromising.
When you get to the bedroom,there is no special switch where
(07:40):
now you can be fully presentand you know, drop the judgment
and get out of your head andreally be fully there and
expressed in the way that isessential for nourishing sexual
experiences.
If we're leaving aspects ofourselves outside of the
(08:03):
relationship in day-to-dayinteractions, it's almost
impossible to bring our wholeselves to one another when we're
naked, and that really is thecontext for developing emotional
intimacy as one of the bestlubricants for sexual intimacy.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
I love that because I think back to like when you're
in the puppy-love days of yourrelationship, you know, and it's
everything's very excitingthere might be a lot of sexual
passion and, you know, passionoutside of that is.
I know that that's a time whereI'm really curious about the
other person, like I want toknow more about them.
I want to know all of thethings where I think, where some
(08:56):
of us can lose it along the wayis that we almost know too much
.
Sometimes we think we know toomuch but we're not necessarily
getting the knowledge that weactually want.
Right, we get the.
I live with you every day.
You leave your clothes on thefloor and that makes me, you
know, I get angry about that orwhatever the thing is.
(09:17):
That would actually be myhusband, not me, but but yeah,
so it's almost like getting thiscuriosity back might be helpful
, especially if you have apartner that has a hard time
opening up and sharing with you,like getting a little bit more
curious.
Going back to that curiosity ofwhat else?
Because I don't know about youbut I'm still learning things
(09:39):
about myself, so I can onlyimagine I actually don't know
everything about my husband andso learning that all over again
is, or getting excited aboutbeing curious about that again
seems like it might be a reallygood step.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
I really love what you've said and I've listened to
enough other episodes to knowthat we have our own ways of
saying things.
But so much of what you say isdeeply aligned with what I say.
So I totally concur.
And I'm just going to add myperspective on exactly what
you've just said, because whenyou think back to the feeling of
(10:19):
being in love, it absolutelylike people don't talk about it
this way, but it is kind ofdefined not only but also by
curiosity where is that scarfrom?
And if this weren't yourprofession, what would you
rather be?
And how old were you when youlearned to read?
And like we just have so manyquestions.
(10:41):
It's part of that feeling ofbeing in love.
And then it's actually reallybeautiful when we transition out
of the curiosity driven newnessinto the comfort and the safety
and security that comes withfamiliarity.
Like that is real and yes, weknow if our husbands are going
(11:08):
to leave clothes on the floorfor you, it's your husband and
my marriage.
It's honestly more likely to beme, but regardless, the problem
is when we enjoy thefamiliarity and the safety and
security and it comes at thecost of curiosity.
(11:31):
The problem with sacrificingcuriosity is definitely that
feeling of interest in oneanother fades for sure, which
you were saying.
But the other reason is thathuman beings grow and evolve and
(11:51):
if we're not curious about ourspouse or ourselves but let's
just talk about our spouse fornow If we're not curious about
our spouse, we're basicallyseeing them through the lens of
being relatively static.
Sure, they're growing older,hair is turning gray, eventually
(12:11):
, wrinkles, maybe a little bitmore weight.
Whatever we notice the physicalchanges, those are obvious, we
all know they're happening andwe perceive them.
But the nature of being humanand feeling alive and vitally
engaged with your life andhaving joy and passion and
(12:31):
purpose and also room to feelsorrow and anger and whatever it
is that contributes to beingalive, All of that happens in
the context of growing andchanging and evolving.
And so when we stop askingquestions, there's a way in
(12:54):
which we get stuck in operatingas though our partner is stuck.
And when that happens, as I'vealready said, we know physical
changes occur and the other maincontext for change is tragedy,
sorrow, bad things happen, andthen we also are very clear
(13:17):
about the changes happening.
But there are so many oftensubtle, nuanced, exciting
changes that happen and whenyour marital culture has room to
include them.
Well, that also contributes topassion, and I'll just be more
specific about what I'm saying.
So maybe you already know yourpartner's favorite movie,
(13:43):
favorite book, what they like toeat for dinner, which side of
the bed they prefer.
Like all these things, you knowyou can go by clothes without
them being there to try it onwhatever it is.
But what you don't know it'sjust not possible, not every
week anyway is what was thehighlight of this past week for
you?
You might know, you might notknow.
(14:06):
If you could have dinner withabsolutely anybody, alive or
dead, who would it be and whatwould you want to ask them?
If we didn't live here, wherewould you want to live?
What is an area of growth foryou right now?
(14:27):
What is something that you'dlike to celebrate that you feel
proud of In any givenrelationship?
You might already know some ofthat, but the point is to expand
and, as I hope it's clear, yourquestions can be whimsical,
(14:48):
they can be humorous, they canbe profound, they can be
existential, they can bepersonal, they can be
professional, they could be asexual fantasy that you've never
shared with me before.
It can be all kinds of things,but the main thing is to season
(15:10):
many, many communications withcuriosity, just as you already
outlined, christina.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
It's beautiful.
I love curiosity because Ialways say curiosity kills the
judgment.
We always want to put ourbrains, we want to always put
things in boxes, and so we caneasily put something in a box
and there's so many variationsin that box of what that is and
we're not that curious about it.
(15:39):
So, yeah, curiosity keeps usopen and understanding and
wanting to understand, which Ithink is really key in life,
whether it's a relationship oryourself or whatever.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Yes and I would expand that, just if I may, that
curiosity antidotes thejudgment and judgment leads to
disconnection.
And similarly, curiosity leadsto creativity and it leads to
(16:13):
connection.
So again, I'm completelyagreeing with what you're saying
, but just specificallyamplifying it in the context of
intimacy.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
That's right.
I like your secondary commentsbecause I think that they are
helpful for people to understandthat there's true lines of
delineation there betweenjudgment and curiosity.
So how do we deepen thisemotional connection?
What I heard was we can startasking a lot of questions and
(16:42):
getting curious, and thatobviously can start outside of
the bedroom, because I think alot of women are like me where
emotional connection like if Idon't have the emotional
connection, it's going to bereally hard to get some in the
bedroom right, and so I reallyneed that piece.
I also know that I have anintellectual connection, that I
(17:04):
need to be able to talk aboutissues and what I'm thinking
about, or even just the news orwhatever is going on right now,
and so I imagine that there's alot of different pieces of this.
But how do we deepen thisemotional connection beyond
asking questions and gettingreally curious about each other?
Again?
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Well, I am a huge fan of curiosity, and so I just
want to add one more thing sothat it can actually serve
anyone who chooses to implementit, because it's not just asking
the questions.
The intimacy, honestly, reallyarises in how we listen, and so
the first thing is only asksomething you're genuinely
(17:48):
interested in knowing the answer.
Don't just ask a question forthe sake of asking a question.
That will not accomplish whatwe're talking about.
And after you ask the question,listen generously, make it safe
and appealing to open up to you.
So that could take some time ifit's out of the ordinary.
(18:10):
And when I say listengenerously, I mean ask
open-ended questions in thefirst place, so that there is no
right answer or wrong answer.
And if you, for example, askthe question where would you
like to go on vacation and yourpartner says I want to go
(18:30):
camping, and you just, if you'regoing to go on vacation, you
want some luxury, like you workhard you want, do not respond
with I hate camping or even oh,I don't really like it, or any
of the.
The point is not to make a plan, it's not to problem solve,
(18:54):
it's not really to do anythingin the future, the kind of
curiosity that really enhancesintimacy.
What it does is allow you toreveal yourself and to see one
another more, and that, asyou've said, does not include
judgment, and so you might havea judgment, but don't say it and
(19:17):
learn to just open your heartand realize your job is not to
agree or approve what yourpartner says, it's to know what
is alive in them, it's to knowwhat is there, and the only
difference is now is now youknow it too.
So I just really want toemphasize that you can go so far
(19:41):
with curiosity.
We are going to get to morethings, I promise.
But I gave a talk on developingemotional intimacy once, and
there was a woman who had beenmarried for 32 years in the
audience, who hadn't evenintended to come to the talk,
but she wanted to be there forthe next one and she arrived
early and she thought, okay,well, listen.
And the reason she wasn'tlooking to be at the talk is
because she thought her marriageis good, it's better than her
(20:03):
friend, she's happy with it.
But she listened and she tookaction, and when she went home,
she asked her husband a fewopen-ended questions and she
contacted me a few days laterand said we've been married for
32 years and we felt closer thanwe felt in about five years and
(20:24):
we had a passionate night thatseemed like it came out of
nowhere, but I understand it wasbecause we were putting
attention on one another in thisway.
So I'll share other things, butI really want to emphasize that
if all you get from thisconversation is generous
listening and open-endedquestions, that truly is enough
(20:47):
to really create a state changeand a different dynamic between
you and your partner.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Yeah, I appreciate you adding those, because I
think that that is reallyimportant.
Sometimes we ask these yes orno or black or white questions
and it's like you're not gettingenough information.
So even if you're like, well,why is it that you like to go
camping?
What do you get out of thatthat you find so fascinating and
so exciting, right, Other than,oh God, I don't want to go
(21:18):
camping?
Speaker 2 (21:20):
That's such a great example.
What is it about that that youenjoy?
Absolutely so good?
Okay, thank you.
Since we're focusedspecifically on intimacy, let me
share that, based on research,the best positive predictor for
(21:42):
a long-lasting happy marriage iswhether or not a couple talks
about sex.
Of couples who are happy andhave long marriages, only 9% of
them don't talk about sex.
That means that 91% do, and soif you are in a marriage or a
(22:09):
committed relationship whereyou're talking about the sex
that you're having and what youenjoy and what you'd like to do
differently, that is an amazing,amazing contribution to your
sex life.
But most couples are not doingthat.
So I'm happy to share somestep-by-step instructions for
(22:30):
how to get that conversationgoing, which, honestly, it's a
variation.
It's like applied curiosity,because it includes everything
we've already said aboutcuriosity, but is specific to
this topic.
So if you've never had aconversation about sex and there
are plenty of people who aremarried for decades for whom it
(22:51):
is much easier to have sex thanto have a conversation about sex
so those are two differentthings.
Anyway, the first thing is donot have the conversation when
you're about to having or havejust had sex.
This is a conversation to havewhen you're both calm neither
(23:14):
one of you is naked and in arelaxed manner, even outside the
bedroom, literally.
So there's no confusion.
You can start your conversationabout sex.
So that's point number one,because if you share about sex
(23:35):
and you share anything thatisn't positive and you've just
made love, that just brings uprejection, disappointment, sense
of inadequacy.
It's just not helpful.
So do it separately, whenyou're both calm.
That's the first thing.
The second thing is you canstart by sharing something
(23:58):
wonderful.
So if you had a really greattime last week, you can start by
saying that was so fun lastTuesday night.
You don't even use the word sex, but you both know what it
means, and maybe it was 10 yearsago.
Whatever, it doesn't matter howlong ago.
Just start by pointing to awonderful sexual experience
(24:21):
you've had.
Now they're going to be womenlistening and they can't think
of one, and maybe they've neverhad one.
And if that is the case, then Ihighly recommend you start by
talking about the aspects ofyour relationship that you
really enjoy.
Maybe you say you know, I justlove how we parent together, or
(24:46):
you know I feel really proud ofhow we navigate financial
decisions.
Whatever it is, the point is itdoesn't need to be so romantic,
it just needs to be.
You want to start withsomething that you both feel
good about and you can stategladness and appreciation.
That is the beginning of theconversation, and if this really
is new for you, that might beenough.
(25:07):
This is not like a one and donehaving the talk.
You want to open thecommunication channel so that
talking about sex becomes partof the fun repertoire you share.
Most of those conversationswill be fun.
Some will be more challenging,but regardless, you don't need
to force it, you don't need topush it.
Take it at the pace that yourrelationship is ready for in
(25:30):
terms of making changes.
So you might just start withthe positive thing, in which
case the next time you start thesame way, but go a little bit
further, or you just plan, domore of this in that first
conversation, and then you mightsay something like you know, I
loved what we did Tuesday nightand I've been wanting to try
(25:57):
this.
You might say something likethat.
In other words, there's nopoint at which you're saying
your partner is a bad lover orthis doesn't work for you.
Sometimes it's hard to know whatwe actually want to say so I'd
like to be very clear that it'sokay to start with complaints,
(26:17):
to start with what doesn't work,but don't do that in the
conversation with your partner.
Do that in advance.
Think about what isn't workingfor you and look at your
complaint and discover thedesire that's in there.
So a complaint might be like Ihad a great time last Tuesday,
(26:39):
you know, and say more aboutthat, and then you know I've
been thinking I really wish thatwe had more time before we
actually had penetration.
There are so many things thatwe could do with other parts of
our bodies.
I'd like to explore that, otherthan you make it move too
(27:03):
quickly or, you know, you insertyourself inside me and I'm I
wanted more time, like there's away to say it that essentially
Inspires your partner tocollaborate with you.
You want to feel like you're onthe same team, wanting to
create something together, asopposed to giving a report card
(27:24):
that Was never solicited.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
I have more to say about so much.
Yeah, I mean that's so, that'sso good.
Because what I'm also noticingabout those statements is like I
get to come from what I wantrather than what.
I think you're doing wrong orwe're doing wrong, right, it's
more of a this is nothing toeven do with you, necessarily,
(27:50):
this is what I want and, and sothat's not putting that negative
vibe out there.
Because you mean, if somebodysays, oh well, you know, you
never give me enough for playersense, sensuality before we have
that penetration, then it'slike now, now that person's
gonna be in their heads goingokay, so what does that mean?
(28:12):
How much time and blah, blah,blah, rather than just us being
able to clearly ask for what wewant, like this is this is what
I'm desiring, without anythingbeing bad.
But that also requires us to dothe work ahead of time, which I
really love to, because I thinkthat that's why my second
marriage is so great is becausewe go away, we do our own work
(28:33):
and then we come back togetherand share what it is, that we
Figure it out about ourselves,so that it is in a positive way
and it's not like you never pickup your clothes or whatever,
right, it's more like I reallylike when the this force clean.
Thank you, babe.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Great example and also this is true in general,
but is especially true when itcomes to sex.
As women, even unconsciously,we somehow assume that our
partners should know what to do,and so it could be that it's
(29:13):
been years that you've wantedmore for play, more sensual
experiences before penetrationNot that sex always needs to
include penetration.
I just want to be really clear,but I'm using a kind of
standard example cuz everyoneunderstands.
But If that's been going on along time, it's very easy and
(29:38):
common to build resentmenttowards one's partner for doing
it that way.
But if you've never said so,are you never said so in a way
that was kind and inspiring andmaybe playful?
How is your partner gonna knowit?
Nobody, I mean.
(29:59):
I suppose there are mindreaders.
But In intimate relationship,is your job To communicate what
is true for you.
This gets back touncompromising intimacy.
Whenever we assume somebodyelse knows, that is a recipe for
disappointment.
(30:20):
So, yes, you need to spend sometime identifying what you want
Before actually bringing it up.
Or this is also very possiblethat you're not sure and then
you can just say you know I lovethis and I don't really know
exactly what I want.
(30:42):
But I'd love, together, to seeif you know whatever it is that
you want.
And I wanna kind of point outthat I'm not speaking like a
boss to my spouse.
I'm not speaking like a childto my boss.
I'm not even really looking foropt-in.
(31:06):
I'm vulnerably sharing what istrue in a way that it's
appealing to join you there andsee what you can co-create
together.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Like a partner, not like a parent, not like a child,
right?
I mean Exactly, who wants tohave sex with their parent or
child?
Anyway, no one.
So we hope, and so I think thatthat's a really great point too
.
So how do we heat up, like, howdoes it go from there to?
(31:43):
How do we transfer that to thebedroom?
Well, and I love the part thatyou said, little conversations.
I just want to point that out.
So this is not like I'm gonnahave this conversation and our
sex life is gonna be fixed orwhatever, like that's not how it
goes.
This is, this is a process overtime, because what I'm hearing
(32:05):
from you and you exactly saythis, so you can correct me if
I'm wrong but there's this trustthat starts to be built over
sharing these things andvulnerably with each other, and
it's that trust that reallybrings that intimacy, at least
in my life, that's in my,because I'm emotionally you know
I need that emotionalconnection.
(32:25):
But it's that trust that bringsa lot of that intimacy back in
because I can I feel like I canbe naked in front of you and I'm
safe.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Yes, and what you're calling trust I call emotional
intimacy, but it's the sameexact thing.
So, yes, and the more that wehave that in communication, the
more that can be had in thebedroom.
Now, in terms of taking it intothe bedroom, there are A few
main things.
One is, I think probably anyonelistening is familiar with
(33:03):
fight, flight, freeze or faint,all of which happen in the
sympathetic nervous system.
And sex Lube, vacation, orgasmall of the physiological
phenomena that make it appealingthose happen In the
(33:24):
parasympathetic nervous system.
So what does that mean?
It means that if we're thinkingabout the laundry list or, you
know, any form of stress,whether it's physical discomfort
, emotional discomfort ordisconnection or intellectually,
our mind is somewhere else.
Those are impediments.
(33:46):
So Each person is responsibleto come to sex in his relax, the
state as possible.
Now, I'm not a Pollyanna here.
I'm not saying everyone needsto meditate An hour in order to
have sex.
Of course not.
But just know that if you'renot in the mood or not
(34:10):
responsive, the first place tolook is what do you need to do
to feel less stress?
Then the next thing that Iwould say about that as women
actually, men think this too,but particularly as women, we
(34:32):
often have the idea that theproper order for sexual
experiences is desire I want tohave it, I feel turned on, and
then we have arousal, wherethere are physiological changes,
(34:52):
blood flow goes to our genitalsetc.
And then we have sex.
I mean, we could include desireand arousal in that, but anyway
on the way to climax in orgasm.
But it does not actually need tohappen that way.
It certainly does early in arelationship, when there is
(35:13):
novelty and excitement of acertain kind and then we feel
desire and then after that wefeel aroused and then we're
ready.
It's totally fine to begin witharousal and let desire arise in
response to arousal.
(35:33):
So what does that mean?
That means that instead ofblocking sex until everything is
just right and you feel desirethis again is in the context of
a long term relationship wherethere's trust and there's
emotional intimacy and you canrelax with one another it's
(35:55):
totally fine if, for example,your partner starts touching you
in ways that you both know willbe arousing.
Now I don't mean you gostraight for the genitals and be
aroused that way.
In fact, for me, some days Iwork late because I have clients
(36:17):
all over the world and withdifferent time zones.
I have a lot of flexibility,but it means that I sometimes at
least one night a week I workpretty late, and so I don't
emerge from my office ready tolose myself in sensual abandon.
So my husband knows to say wouldyou like a massage?
(36:41):
And initially it's not even asexual massage particularly, but
he will say would you like amassage?
And just through his warm hands, his attention and essentially
bringing me back into my body, Irelax.
And then there's not even aclear line, but it just can kind
(37:03):
of transition from a non sexualmassage to a more erotic touch
and basically in that scenario,which doesn't have to include
massage I just use that as oneexample arousal precedes desire.
So I'm kind of going with thenotion that all roads lead to
(37:28):
Rome, and what I mean by that isthere are many, many different
ways to bring emotional intimacyinto the bedroom.
So these are some, and I guessone more that I would say is
this is kind of a high order ofplay, like it's not a beginner
(37:49):
move but it's a great move, andthat is to use timed containers.
That is not something thatcouples normally do, naturally,
but like if you want to behaving sex and you're not like
that's the scenario in which I'msuggesting this it's pretty hot
if you are having sex too.
But I'm bringing it up forpeople who want to be having
(38:11):
more sexual intimacy you canagree to, like set a timer and
make out for 10 minutes or set atimer and you know there are a
lot of different things thatthat can happen.
But the point is that sometimesit's much easier to say yes to
(38:36):
something finite rather than sayyes and have no idea how long
you're going to be there and howinvolved it's going to be,
because maybe you feel likebeing sexual but you don't feel
like taking your clothes off, orI mean there just are so many
options and I think we haveideas that sex should be
(38:59):
unscripted, undirected,spontaneous, and that's not true
.
You know you can have or don'tset an alarm, but just decide.
Let's enjoy kissing tonight,and you do enough kissing or
(39:20):
massage when you're fully naked,or getting in the bath together
, taking a shower and washingone another, in other words,
things that aren't sex butcertainly are expressions of
sexual intimacy or sensualintimacy anyway, and you do that
(39:41):
often enough.
It's not such a big jump toinclude more and more and more.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
But we have to make that space for it is what I'm
saying, what you're saying and Ilove that because I do this
with my clients too, when theywant new goals and whatever that
is even outside of intimacy islike, if you really hate it,
just set a timer for 10 minutes,like and I hope that we're not
gonna hate this, right.
But if you find somethingchallenging, set a timer for 10
(40:16):
or 15 minutes, do it for 10 or15 minutes and then see how you
feel after that.
You know you might feel reallygood that you're starting to get
aroused or maybe even startingto get some of that desire.
But we don't have to feel like,oh, it's gonna take up my whole
time and all of my energy andyou know all of the things that
we might, all the excuses orthings we might be making up in
(40:40):
our head.
That just makes it like here'sone super easy thing we can do
we can kiss for five or tenminutes, like that's, that's
possible, right?
So finding that, that, that bitthat's possible right now I
guess is what I'm saying, iswhat I'm hearing from you is
like find that bit that'spossible and see if we can
(41:00):
expand that over time, orexplore and try different things
.
That may work or may not work,but you'll find out.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Exactly, although I want to emphasize that.
Any kind of timed container asyou've described, using with
your clients, that is the wholeactivity Now.
You always can choose to go onand do more, but this will serve
to just kind of steadilyincrease the temperature between
(41:35):
you if it's understood that allyou're both saying yes to is
ten minutes of making out.
That's not some variation onforeplay, because if this is a
helpful move, it can't implymore is coming.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
I like that too.
Yeah, because that's the thepart that's different with this.
Intimacy is like it's one thing.
If I'm setting a timer formyself, all of me agrees that
that's what I want to do andwhere the limits are, whereas
with a partner you'd want tohave that expressed right.
Like this is.
This is all we're doing rightnow so that everyone's
(42:18):
expectations are being met onwhat's going on, and that I know
for a lot of women like theycan get to feel like if he
starts massaging me, that meanswe have to have sex or that
that's what he's expecting, orwhatever.
And so I like this ten minutesor whatever time limit you put
on it, because it makes it, youknow, as long as we're very
(42:42):
clear about it, like this isn'tabout sex.
This doesn't mean that this isgonna lead to sex.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Well, it is about sexual connection, like you.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
Yeah, but not necessarily like it needs to be
penetration just because westart here does not mean that we
have to end at orgasm.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Exactly, and I'll piggyback on something you said
that I think one of the saddestthings for couples who have
voluntarily or involuntarily orsome unconscious mix thereof,
sacrificed their sexualrelationship that they often
(43:23):
give up non-sexual physicaltouch as well, and that really
is another way to really warmthings up.
Now there are plenty of coupleswho have a lot of non-sexual
physical touch and it neverturns sexual, because it's a
really different flavor, it'sjust like affection, but for the
(43:44):
couple that wants to be havingmore sex, or one of them does
and the other doesn't, and theyavoid non-sexual physical touch
because if I say yes to holdinghands, then who knows what it's
gonna mean.
(44:04):
Or if we're in the bedroom andthe you know no one else, kids
are in bed or not at home orwhatever, and I want to give a
good night hug standing up orlying in bed, like I don't,
because he's gonna misunderstandthat.
If you can either indirectly ordirectly establish that
(44:29):
non-sexual physical touch doesnot automatically lead to sexual
physical touch, that alsocontributes to more closeness
and connection.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
I love that a lot.
Well, I know that I couldcontinue asking you questions
and talk to you all day, butwe've got to cut this off
somewhere so I know that youhave a little gift for us.
You want to tell us about thisgift and your book.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
Yes, I'm glad to.
You'll have the link in theshow notes.
It's the first chapter of mybook, my book uncompromising
intimacy, and the first chapteris called is companionship as
good as it gets, and it reallyis looking at exactly the topic
(45:16):
that we've talked about.
And in this first chapter Italk about the four kinds of
relationships and which ones aregoing to lead to long-lasting
sexual intimacy and which aren't, and how to.
Well, I guess it's really therest of the book that's about
how to change the kind ofrelationship you have.
(45:37):
But just people get so muchvalue just reading that first
chapter and evolving how theythink about intimacy in their
relationship.
So definitely download it,enjoy it and if you've listened
this far in this interview,you're gonna get a lot of value
(45:59):
from reading that chapter.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Yeah, I appreciate that I'm gonna pick up the book,
because I actually haven't readit yet, but I'm looking forward
to it.
Both of those seem veryexciting.
I like the invitation one aboutthe talk about menopause,
because that's something elsethat we don't talk enough about
in this, in this country, right,right, at least in our culture,
my culture yeah, I don't wantto claim that for everybody.
(46:25):
I'm sure there's some familieswho have these conversations,
but none that I was part of.
So thank you, dr Stockwell.
Again, alexandra, for being onhere.
I really appreciate all of thisreally great feedback talked
about curiosity.
We talked about asking theseopen questions and how we start
(46:47):
establishing more intimacyemotionally and then move that
closer to the sexual intimacy,which I really appreciate.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
My pleasure, christina.
Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
Yeah, and thank you, shifters for tuning and we will
talk to you next week.
Welcome back, shifters, to another episode of
the Inviting Shift podcast.
I am super excited todaybecause the topic we talk about
today is something that hitsjust about all of my clients,
especially if they've beenmarried for some time.
And Dr Alexandra Stockwell ishere and she is going to talk to
(00:21):
us about rekindling thatintimacy, getting that intimacy
back in our lives.
So maybe your kids have nowleft the coop, you have a little
bit more time, but you'rerealizing, wow, this person next
to me kind of feels like astranger, or we're not as
intimate as we used to be.
This is going to be theconversation for you.
(00:42):
So welcome, alexandra.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
I'm glad to be here and get right to it, because our
topic is wonderful.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Yeah, tell us a little bit about you, because
you're a little bit more expertthan we might think.
I love your Instagram is theIntimacy Doctor, so we are
talking to the right person here, folks.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Yeah well, I'm the Intimacy Doctor.
Because I am a physician, Idon't practice medicine anymore.
I've transitioned full-time tobe a relationship and intimacy
coach and an intimate marriageexpert.
I myself have been married for27 years.
My husband and I have fourchildren, and so that is
(01:27):
certainly one of my wonderfulresources for the work that I do
, as well as all of the formaltraining.
I have written two books.
One is called UncompromisingIntimacy, and the other one,
co-authored with a friend ofmine, is the Invitation Vital
Conversations About Menopause.
(01:49):
I also have a highly rankedpodcast, the intimate marriage
podcast, and I invite all of youto listen to it and let's see
what else should I say about me?
Oh, here's the most importantthing as context for this
conversation.
Far and away the most commonrelationship advice that is
(02:11):
given is that if you want agreat marriage, you've got to
learn to compromise.
You've got to be good atcompromise, because compromise
is the way to be happy.
That is completely wrong.
If you want a pleasant, bland,conflict-free, passion-free
(02:34):
relationship, compromise is yourfriend.
But then you end up in exactlythe kind of situation you
described just a few moments ago, christina, where the kids
leave home, you have more time,but everything has relatively
(02:54):
fizzled out, either completelyor mostly.
So the antidote to that whichwe'll of course, get into I
refer to as uncompromisingintimacy, and what I mean is not
that you are uncompromising inthe sense that you get your own
(03:15):
way.
This is not some variation onmy way or the highway.
It's that where compromise iswithholding who you are, your
desires, what is going on insideyou and sometimes even around
you, but withholding significantaspects so that your partner is
(03:38):
more comfortable Going forpizza when you want Chinese, I
don't know, storing the shoes inthis closet rather than that, I
mean, these can be minor thingsand what house you live in,
major, what movies you watch.
If you are in the habit of justwithholding that so that your
(04:02):
partner is more comfortable inorder to keep peace, that
essentially is toxic for passion.
And when you learn to reallyexpress yourself, to know
yourself and express yourselfand share the truth of who you
are and what's alive inside in away that your partner can hear
(04:25):
it, that is the foundation forsensuality, intimacy, sexuality
and erotica liveness thatexpands with every year.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
I love that I'm taking all of that in, because
it is the thing that we'realways told is like compromise,
compromise, and trying to thinkabout my own marriage, and it's
like we don't always compromise.
We kind of look at a situationand tell our own truth about it
(05:00):
and then we try to figure outwhat is it that you need out of
this and what is it that I need,and then how do we both get
most of that or at least some ofthat?
But I love that you said that,because it is like that's how we
get to be strangers is becausewe're not really speaking up for
what we want or givingdirection.
(05:21):
And I do know several women whoit seems like they're always
walking on eggshells, whichmeans that you know they really
go to that point of like peoplepleasing and not really asking
for what they want, and I cansee how that could be a real
intimacy problem.
But what we're seeing is thatour intimacy starts outside of
(05:43):
the bedroom.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
By the way, folks, right yeah, in fact, I really
enjoy saying that, when it comesto a one-night stand, you don't
even have to know yourpartner's name in order to have
a really great experience.
It's certainly not guaranteed,but it is possible.
(06:04):
But when you're married or in along-lasting committed
relationship, it's really notpossible to have fantastic
sexual intimacy withoutemotional intimacy, and one way
to remember that well is that,basically, in the context of a
(06:27):
long-term relationship, anythingwhich isn't sex functions as
foreplay.
It either brings you a littlecloser together or a lot, or
pushes you a little or a lotfurther apart.
And I think the thing that is soimportant, particularly for
somebody who is wanting tograduate from people placing, is
(06:53):
it's important to remember thathuman beings do not have some
magic switch that gets to befound.
So if you are in the habit ofnot being fully honest, not
being fully transparent aboutwhat you want, just going like
(07:15):
essentially responding, lettingyour partner set the tone, even
if they don't want to, even ifthey want you to be more
confident and present and trueto yourself, but you're in the
habit of withholding who, youare, leaving things unexpressed,
accommodating and compromising.
When you get to the bedroom,there is no special switch where
(07:40):
now you can be fully presentand you know, drop the judgment
and get out of your head andreally be fully there and
expressed in the way that isessential for nourishing sexual
experiences.
If we're leaving aspects ofourselves outside of the
(08:03):
relationship in day-to-dayinteractions, it's almost
impossible to bring our wholeselves to one another when we're
naked, and that really is thecontext for developing emotional
intimacy as one of the bestlubricants for sexual intimacy.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
I love that because I think back to like when you're
in the puppy-love days of yourrelationship, you know, and it's
everything's very excitingthere might be a lot of sexual
passion and, you know, passionoutside of that is.
I know that that's a time whereI'm really curious about the
other person, like I want toknow more about them.
I want to know all of thethings where I think, where some
(08:56):
of us can lose it along the wayis that we almost know too much
.
Sometimes we think we know toomuch but we're not necessarily
getting the knowledge that weactually want.
Right, we get the.
I live with you every day.
You leave your clothes on thefloor and that makes me, you
know, I get angry about that orwhatever the thing is.
(09:17):
That would actually be myhusband, not me, but but yeah,
so it's almost like getting thiscuriosity back might be helpful
, especially if you have apartner that has a hard time
opening up and sharing with you,like getting a little bit more
curious.
Going back to that curiosity ofwhat else?
Because I don't know about youbut I'm still learning things
(09:39):
about myself, so I can onlyimagine I actually don't know
everything about my husband andso learning that all over again
is, or getting excited aboutbeing curious about that again
seems like it might be a reallygood step.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
I really love what you've said and I've listened to
enough other episodes to knowthat we have our own ways of
saying things.
But so much of what you say isdeeply aligned with what I say.
So I totally concur.
And I'm just going to add myperspective on exactly what
you've just said, because whenyou think back to the feeling of
(10:19):
being in love, it absolutelylike people don't talk about it
this way, but it is kind ofdefined not only but also by
curiosity where is that scarfrom?
And if this weren't yourprofession, what would you
rather be?
And how old were you when youlearned to read?
And like we just have so manyquestions.
(10:41):
It's part of that feeling ofbeing in love.
And then it's actually reallybeautiful when we transition out
of the curiosity driven newnessinto the comfort and the safety
and security that comes withfamiliarity.
Like that is real and yes, weknow if our husbands are going
(11:08):
to leave clothes on the floorfor you, it's your husband and
my marriage.
It's honestly more likely to beme, but regardless, the problem
is when we enjoy thefamiliarity and the safety and
security and it comes at thecost of curiosity.
(11:31):
The problem with sacrificingcuriosity is definitely that
feeling of interest in oneanother fades for sure, which
you were saying.
But the other reason is thathuman beings grow and evolve and
(11:51):
if we're not curious about ourspouse or ourselves but let's
just talk about our spouse fornow If we're not curious about
our spouse, we're basicallyseeing them through the lens of
being relatively static.
Sure, they're growing older,hair is turning gray, eventually
(12:11):
, wrinkles, maybe a little bitmore weight.
Whatever we notice the physicalchanges, those are obvious, we
all know they're happening andwe perceive them.
But the nature of being humanand feeling alive and vitally
engaged with your life andhaving joy and passion and
(12:31):
purpose and also room to feelsorrow and anger and whatever it
is that contributes to beingalive, All of that happens in
the context of growing andchanging and evolving.
And so when we stop askingquestions, there's a way in
(12:54):
which we get stuck in operatingas though our partner is stuck.
And when that happens, as I'vealready said, we know physical
changes occur and the other maincontext for change is tragedy,
sorrow, bad things happen, andthen we also are very clear
(13:17):
about the changes happening.
But there are so many oftensubtle, nuanced, exciting
changes that happen and whenyour marital culture has room to
include them.
Well, that also contributes topassion, and I'll just be more
specific about what I'm saying.
So maybe you already know yourpartner's favorite movie,
(13:43):
favorite book, what they like toeat for dinner, which side of
the bed they prefer.
Like all these things, you knowyou can go by clothes without
them being there to try it onwhatever it is.
But what you don't know it'sjust not possible, not every
week anyway is what was thehighlight of this past week for
you?
You might know, you might notknow.
(14:06):
If you could have dinner withabsolutely anybody, alive or
dead, who would it be and whatwould you want to ask them?
If we didn't live here, wherewould you want to live?
What is an area of growth foryou right now?
(14:27):
What is something that you'dlike to celebrate that you feel
proud of In any givenrelationship?
You might already know some ofthat, but the point is to expand
and, as I hope it's clear, yourquestions can be whimsical,
(14:48):
they can be humorous, they canbe profound, they can be
existential, they can bepersonal, they can be
professional, they could be asexual fantasy that you've never
shared with me before.
It can be all kinds of things,but the main thing is to season
(15:10):
many, many communications withcuriosity, just as you already
outlined, christina.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
It's beautiful.
I love curiosity because Ialways say curiosity kills the
judgment.
We always want to put ourbrains, we want to always put
things in boxes, and so we caneasily put something in a box
and there's so many variationsin that box of what that is and
we're not that curious about it.
(15:39):
So, yeah, curiosity keeps usopen and understanding and
wanting to understand, which Ithink is really key in life,
whether it's a relationship oryourself or whatever.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Yes and I would expand that, just if I may, that
curiosity antidotes thejudgment and judgment leads to
disconnection.
And similarly, curiosity leadsto creativity and it leads to
(16:13):
connection.
So again, I'm completelyagreeing with what you're saying
, but just specificallyamplifying it in the context of
intimacy.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
That's right.
I like your secondary commentsbecause I think that they are
helpful for people to understandthat there's true lines of
delineation there betweenjudgment and curiosity.
So how do we deepen thisemotional connection?
What I heard was we can startasking a lot of questions and
(16:42):
getting curious, and thatobviously can start outside of
the bedroom, because I think alot of women are like me where
emotional connection like if Idon't have the emotional
connection, it's going to bereally hard to get some in the
bedroom right, and so I reallyneed that piece.
I also know that I have anintellectual connection, that I
(17:04):
need to be able to talk aboutissues and what I'm thinking
about, or even just the news orwhatever is going on right now,
and so I imagine that there's alot of different pieces of this.
But how do we deepen thisemotional connection beyond
asking questions and gettingreally curious about each other?
Again?
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Well, I am a huge fan of curiosity, and so I just
want to add one more thing sothat it can actually serve
anyone who chooses to implementit, because it's not just asking
the questions.
The intimacy, honestly, reallyarises in how we listen, and so
the first thing is only asksomething you're genuinely
(17:48):
interested in knowing the answer.
Don't just ask a question forthe sake of asking a question.
That will not accomplish whatwe're talking about.
And after you ask the question,listen generously, make it safe
and appealing to open up to you.
So that could take some time ifit's out of the ordinary.
(18:10):
And when I say listengenerously, I mean ask
open-ended questions in thefirst place, so that there is no
right answer or wrong answer.
And if you, for example, askthe question where would you
like to go on vacation and yourpartner says I want to go
(18:30):
camping, and you just, if you'regoing to go on vacation, you
want some luxury, like you workhard you want, do not respond
with I hate camping or even oh,I don't really like it, or any
of the.
The point is not to make a plan, it's not to problem solve,
(18:54):
it's not really to do anythingin the future, the kind of
curiosity that really enhancesintimacy.
What it does is allow you toreveal yourself and to see one
another more, and that, asyou've said, does not include
judgment, and so you might havea judgment, but don't say it and
(19:17):
learn to just open your heartand realize your job is not to
agree or approve what yourpartner says, it's to know what
is alive in them, it's to knowwhat is there, and the only
difference is now is now youknow it too.
So I just really want toemphasize that you can go so far
(19:41):
with curiosity.
We are going to get to morethings, I promise.
But I gave a talk on developingemotional intimacy once, and
there was a woman who had beenmarried for 32 years in the
audience, who hadn't evenintended to come to the talk,
but she wanted to be there forthe next one and she arrived
early and she thought, okay,well, listen.
And the reason she wasn'tlooking to be at the talk is
because she thought her marriageis good, it's better than her
(20:03):
friend, she's happy with it.
But she listened and she tookaction, and when she went home,
she asked her husband a fewopen-ended questions and she
contacted me a few days laterand said we've been married for
32 years and we felt closer thanwe felt in about five years and
(20:24):
we had a passionate night thatseemed like it came out of
nowhere, but I understand it wasbecause we were putting
attention on one another in thisway.
So I'll share other things, butI really want to emphasize that
if all you get from thisconversation is generous
listening and open-endedquestions, that truly is enough
(20:47):
to really create a state changeand a different dynamic between
you and your partner.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Yeah, I appreciate you adding those, because I
think that that is reallyimportant.
Sometimes we ask these yes orno or black or white questions
and it's like you're not gettingenough information.
So even if you're like, well,why is it that you like to go
camping?
What do you get out of thatthat you find so fascinating and
so exciting, right, Other than,oh God, I don't want to go
(21:18):
camping?
Speaker 2 (21:20):
That's such a great example.
What is it about that that youenjoy?
Absolutely so good?
Okay, thank you.
Since we're focusedspecifically on intimacy, let me
share that, based on research,the best positive predictor for
(21:42):
a long-lasting happy marriage iswhether or not a couple talks
about sex.
Of couples who are happy andhave long marriages, only 9% of
them don't talk about sex.
That means that 91% do, and soif you are in a marriage or a
(22:09):
committed relationship whereyou're talking about the sex
that you're having and what youenjoy and what you'd like to do
differently, that is an amazing,amazing contribution to your
sex life.
But most couples are not doingthat.
So I'm happy to share somestep-by-step instructions for
(22:30):
how to get that conversationgoing, which, honestly, it's a
variation.
It's like applied curiosity,because it includes everything
we've already said aboutcuriosity, but is specific to
this topic.
So if you've never had aconversation about sex and there
are plenty of people who aremarried for decades for whom it
(22:51):
is much easier to have sex thanto have a conversation about sex
so those are two differentthings.
Anyway, the first thing is donot have the conversation when
you're about to having or havejust had sex.
This is a conversation to havewhen you're both calm neither
(23:14):
one of you is naked and in arelaxed manner, even outside the
bedroom, literally.
So there's no confusion.
You can start your conversationabout sex.
So that's point number one,because if you share about sex
(23:35):
and you share anything thatisn't positive and you've just
made love, that just brings uprejection, disappointment, sense
of inadequacy.
It's just not helpful.
So do it separately, whenyou're both calm.
That's the first thing.
The second thing is you canstart by sharing something
(23:58):
wonderful.
So if you had a really greattime last week, you can start by
saying that was so fun lastTuesday night.
You don't even use the word sex, but you both know what it
means, and maybe it was 10 yearsago.
Whatever, it doesn't matter howlong ago.
Just start by pointing to awonderful sexual experience
(24:21):
you've had.
Now they're going to be womenlistening and they can't think
of one, and maybe they've neverhad one.
And if that is the case, then Ihighly recommend you start by
talking about the aspects ofyour relationship that you
really enjoy.
Maybe you say you know, I justlove how we parent together, or
(24:46):
you know I feel really proud ofhow we navigate financial
decisions.
Whatever it is, the point is itdoesn't need to be so romantic,
it just needs to be.
You want to start withsomething that you both feel
good about and you can stategladness and appreciation.
That is the beginning of theconversation, and if this really
is new for you, that might beenough.
(25:07):
This is not like a one and donehaving the talk.
You want to open thecommunication channel so that
talking about sex becomes partof the fun repertoire you share.
Most of those conversationswill be fun.
Some will be more challenging,but regardless, you don't need
to force it, you don't need topush it.
Take it at the pace that yourrelationship is ready for in
(25:30):
terms of making changes.
So you might just start withthe positive thing, in which
case the next time you start thesame way, but go a little bit
further, or you just plan, domore of this in that first
conversation, and then you mightsay something like you know, I
loved what we did Tuesday nightand I've been wanting to try
(25:57):
this.
You might say something likethat.
In other words, there's nopoint at which you're saying
your partner is a bad lover orthis doesn't work for you.
Sometimes it's hard to know whatwe actually want to say so I'd
like to be very clear that it'sokay to start with complaints,
(26:17):
to start with what doesn't work,but don't do that in the
conversation with your partner.
Do that in advance.
Think about what isn't workingfor you and look at your
complaint and discover thedesire that's in there.
So a complaint might be like Ihad a great time last Tuesday,
(26:39):
you know, and say more aboutthat, and then you know I've
been thinking I really wish thatwe had more time before we
actually had penetration.
There are so many things thatwe could do with other parts of
our bodies.
I'd like to explore that, otherthan you make it move too
(27:03):
quickly or, you know, you insertyourself inside me and I'm I
wanted more time, like there's away to say it that essentially
Inspires your partner tocollaborate with you.
You want to feel like you're onthe same team, wanting to
create something together, asopposed to giving a report card
(27:24):
that Was never solicited.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
I have more to say about so much.
Yeah, I mean that's so, that'sso good.
Because what I'm also noticingabout those statements is like I
get to come from what I wantrather than what.
I think you're doing wrong orwe're doing wrong, right, it's
more of a this is nothing toeven do with you, necessarily,
(27:50):
this is what I want and, and sothat's not putting that negative
vibe out there.
Because you mean, if somebodysays, oh well, you know, you
never give me enough for playersense, sensuality before we have
that penetration, then it'slike now, now that person's
gonna be in their heads goingokay, so what does that mean?
(28:12):
How much time and blah, blah,blah, rather than just us being
able to clearly ask for what wewant, like this is this is what
I'm desiring, without anythingbeing bad.
But that also requires us to dothe work ahead of time, which I
really love to, because I thinkthat that's why my second
marriage is so great is becausewe go away, we do our own work
(28:33):
and then we come back togetherand share what it is, that we
Figure it out about ourselves,so that it is in a positive way
and it's not like you never pickup your clothes or whatever,
right, it's more like I reallylike when the this force clean.
Thank you, babe.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
Great example and also this is true in general,
but is especially true when itcomes to sex.
As women, even unconsciously,we somehow assume that our
partners should know what to do,and so it could be that it's
(29:13):
been years that you've wantedmore for play, more sensual
experiences before penetrationNot that sex always needs to
include penetration.
I just want to be really clear,but I'm using a kind of
standard example cuz everyoneunderstands.
But If that's been going on along time, it's very easy and
(29:38):
common to build resentmenttowards one's partner for doing
it that way.
But if you've never said so,are you never said so in a way
that was kind and inspiring andmaybe playful?
How is your partner gonna knowit?
Nobody, I mean.
(29:59):
I suppose there are mindreaders.
But In intimate relationship,is your job To communicate what
is true for you.
This gets back touncompromising intimacy.
Whenever we assume somebodyelse knows, that is a recipe for
disappointment.
(30:20):
So, yes, you need to spend sometime identifying what you want
Before actually bringing it up.
Or this is also very possiblethat you're not sure and then
you can just say you know I lovethis and I don't really know
exactly what I want.
(30:42):
But I'd love, together, to seeif you know whatever it is that
you want.
And I wanna kind of point outthat I'm not speaking like a
boss to my spouse.
I'm not speaking like a childto my boss.
I'm not even really looking foropt-in.
(31:06):
I'm vulnerably sharing what istrue in a way that it's
appealing to join you there andsee what you can co-create
together.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Like a partner, not like a parent, not like a child,
right?
I mean Exactly, who wants tohave sex with their parent or
child?
Anyway, no one.
So we hope, and so I think thatthat's a really great point too
.
So how do we heat up, like, howdoes it go from there to?
(31:43):
How do we transfer that to thebedroom?
Well, and I love the part thatyou said, little conversations.
I just want to point that out.
So this is not like I'm gonnahave this conversation and our
sex life is gonna be fixed orwhatever, like that's not how it
goes.
This is, this is a process overtime, because what I'm hearing
(32:05):
from you and you exactly saythis, so you can correct me if
I'm wrong but there's this trustthat starts to be built over
sharing these things andvulnerably with each other, and
it's that trust that reallybrings that intimacy, at least
in my life, that's in my,because I'm emotionally you know
I need that emotionalconnection.
(32:25):
But it's that trust that bringsa lot of that intimacy back in
because I can I feel like I canbe naked in front of you and I'm
safe.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Yes, and what you're calling trust I call emotional
intimacy, but it's the sameexact thing.
So, yes, and the more that wehave that in communication, the
more that can be had in thebedroom.
Now, in terms of taking it intothe bedroom, there are A few
main things.
One is, I think probably anyonelistening is familiar with
(33:03):
fight, flight, freeze or faint,all of which happen in the
sympathetic nervous system.
And sex Lube, vacation, orgasmall of the physiological
phenomena that make it appealingthose happen In the
(33:24):
parasympathetic nervous system.
So what does that mean?
It means that if we're thinkingabout the laundry list or, you
know, any form of stress,whether it's physical discomfort
, emotional discomfort ordisconnection or intellectually,
our mind is somewhere else.
Those are impediments.
(33:46):
So Each person is responsibleto come to sex in his relax, the
state as possible.
Now, I'm not a Pollyanna here.
I'm not saying everyone needsto meditate An hour in order to
have sex.
Of course not.
But just know that if you'renot in the mood or not
(34:10):
responsive, the first place tolook is what do you need to do
to feel less stress?
Then the next thing that Iwould say about that as women
actually, men think this too,but particularly as women, we
(34:32):
often have the idea that theproper order for sexual
experiences is desire I want tohave it, I feel turned on, and
then we have arousal, wherethere are physiological changes,
(34:52):
blood flow goes to our genitalsetc.
And then we have sex.
I mean, we could include desireand arousal in that, but anyway
on the way to climax in orgasm.
But it does not actually need tohappen that way.
It certainly does early in arelationship, when there is
(35:13):
novelty and excitement of acertain kind and then we feel
desire and then after that wefeel aroused and then we're
ready.
It's totally fine to begin witharousal and let desire arise in
response to arousal.
(35:33):
So what does that mean?
That means that instead ofblocking sex until everything is
just right and you feel desirethis again is in the context of
a long term relationship wherethere's trust and there's
emotional intimacy and you canrelax with one another it's
(35:55):
totally fine if, for example,your partner starts touching you
in ways that you both know willbe arousing.
Now I don't mean you gostraight for the genitals and be
aroused that way.
In fact, for me, some days Iwork late because I have clients
(36:17):
all over the world and withdifferent time zones.
I have a lot of flexibility,but it means that I sometimes at
least one night a week I workpretty late, and so I don't
emerge from my office ready tolose myself in sensual abandon.
So my husband knows to say wouldyou like a massage?
(36:41):
And initially it's not even asexual massage particularly, but
he will say would you like amassage?
And just through his warm hands, his attention and essentially
bringing me back into my body, Irelax.
And then there's not even aclear line, but it just can kind
(37:03):
of transition from a non sexualmassage to a more erotic touch
and basically in that scenario,which doesn't have to include
massage I just use that as oneexample arousal precedes desire.
So I'm kind of going with thenotion that all roads lead to
(37:28):
Rome, and what I mean by that isthere are many, many different
ways to bring emotional intimacyinto the bedroom.
So these are some, and I guessone more that I would say is
this is kind of a high order ofplay, like it's not a beginner
(37:49):
move but it's a great move, andthat is to use timed containers.
That is not something thatcouples normally do, naturally,
but like if you want to behaving sex and you're not like
that's the scenario in which I'msuggesting this it's pretty hot
if you are having sex too.
But I'm bringing it up forpeople who want to be having
(38:11):
more sexual intimacy you canagree to, like set a timer and
make out for 10 minutes or set atimer and you know there are a
lot of different things thatthat can happen.
But the point is that sometimesit's much easier to say yes to
(38:36):
something finite rather than sayyes and have no idea how long
you're going to be there and howinvolved it's going to be,
because maybe you feel likebeing sexual but you don't feel
like taking your clothes off, orI mean there just are so many
options and I think we haveideas that sex should be
(38:59):
unscripted, undirected,spontaneous, and that's not true
.
You know you can have or don'tset an alarm, but just decide.
Let's enjoy kissing tonight,and you do enough kissing or
(39:20):
massage when you're fully naked,or getting in the bath together
, taking a shower and washingone another, in other words,
things that aren't sex butcertainly are expressions of
sexual intimacy or sensualintimacy anyway, and you do that
(39:41):
often enough.
It's not such a big jump toinclude more and more and more.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
But we have to make that space for it is what I'm
saying, what you're saying and Ilove that because I do this
with my clients too, when theywant new goals and whatever that
is even outside of intimacy islike, if you really hate it,
just set a timer for 10 minutes,like and I hope that we're not
gonna hate this, right.
But if you find somethingchallenging, set a timer for 10
(40:16):
or 15 minutes, do it for 10 or15 minutes and then see how you
feel after that.
You know you might feel reallygood that you're starting to get
aroused or maybe even startingto get some of that desire.
But we don't have to feel like,oh, it's gonna take up my whole
time and all of my energy andyou know all of the things that
we might, all the excuses orthings we might be making up in
(40:40):
our head.
That just makes it like here'sone super easy thing we can do
we can kiss for five or tenminutes, like that's, that's
possible, right?
So finding that, that, that bitthat's possible right now I
guess is what I'm saying, iswhat I'm hearing from you is
like find that bit that'spossible and see if we can
(41:00):
expand that over time, orexplore and try different things
.
That may work or may not work,but you'll find out.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Exactly, although I want to emphasize that.
Any kind of timed container asyou've described, using with
your clients, that is the wholeactivity Now.
You always can choose to go onand do more, but this will serve
to just kind of steadilyincrease the temperature between
(41:35):
you if it's understood that allyou're both saying yes to is
ten minutes of making out.
That's not some variation onforeplay, because if this is a
helpful move, it can't implymore is coming.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
I like that too.
Yeah, because that's the thepart that's different with this.
Intimacy is like it's one thing.
If I'm setting a timer formyself, all of me agrees that
that's what I want to do andwhere the limits are, whereas
with a partner you'd want tohave that expressed right.
Like this is.
This is all we're doing rightnow so that everyone's
(42:18):
expectations are being met onwhat's going on, and that I know
for a lot of women like theycan get to feel like if he
starts massaging me, that meanswe have to have sex or that
that's what he's expecting, orwhatever.
And so I like this ten minutesor whatever time limit you put
on it, because it makes it, youknow, as long as we're very
(42:42):
clear about it, like this isn'tabout sex.
This doesn't mean that this isgonna lead to sex.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Well, it is about sexual connection, like you.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
Yeah, but not necessarily like it needs to be
penetration just because westart here does not mean that we
have to end at orgasm.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Exactly, and I'll piggyback on something you said
that I think one of the saddestthings for couples who have
voluntarily or involuntarily orsome unconscious mix thereof,
sacrificed their sexualrelationship that they often
(43:23):
give up non-sexual physicaltouch as well, and that really
is another way to really warmthings up.
Now there are plenty of coupleswho have a lot of non-sexual
physical touch and it neverturns sexual, because it's a
really different flavor, it'sjust like affection, but for the
(43:44):
couple that wants to be havingmore sex, or one of them does
and the other doesn't, and theyavoid non-sexual physical touch
because if I say yes to holdinghands, then who knows what it's
gonna mean.
(44:04):
Or if we're in the bedroom andthe you know no one else, kids
are in bed or not at home orwhatever, and I want to give a
good night hug standing up orlying in bed, like I don't,
because he's gonna misunderstandthat.
If you can either indirectly ordirectly establish that
(44:29):
non-sexual physical touch doesnot automatically lead to sexual
physical touch, that alsocontributes to more closeness
and connection.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
I love that a lot.
Well, I know that I couldcontinue asking you questions
and talk to you all day, butwe've got to cut this off
somewhere so I know that youhave a little gift for us.
You want to tell us about thisgift and your book.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
Yes, I'm glad to.
You'll have the link in theshow notes.
It's the first chapter of mybook, my book uncompromising
intimacy, and the first chapteris called is companionship as
good as it gets, and it reallyis looking at exactly the topic
(45:16):
that we've talked about.
And in this first chapter Italk about the four kinds of
relationships and which ones aregoing to lead to long-lasting
sexual intimacy and which aren't, and how to.
Well, I guess it's really therest of the book that's about
how to change the kind ofrelationship you have.
(45:37):
But just people get so muchvalue just reading that first
chapter and evolving how theythink about intimacy in their
relationship.
So definitely download it,enjoy it and if you've listened
this far in this interview,you're gonna get a lot of value
(45:59):
from reading that chapter.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Yeah, I appreciate that I'm gonna pick up the book,
because I actually haven't readit yet, but I'm looking forward
to it.
Both of those seem veryexciting.
I like the invitation one aboutthe talk about menopause,
because that's something elsethat we don't talk enough about
in this, in this country, right,right, at least in our culture,
my culture yeah, I don't wantto claim that for everybody.
(46:25):
I'm sure there's some familieswho have these conversations,
but none that I was part of.
So thank you, dr Stockwell.
Again, alexandra, for being onhere.
I really appreciate all of thisreally great feedback talked
about curiosity.
We talked about asking theseopen questions and how we start
(46:47):
establishing more intimacyemotionally and then move that
closer to the sexual intimacy,which I really appreciate.
So thank you so much for beinghere.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
My pleasure, christina.
Thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
Yeah, and thank you, shifters for tuning and we will
talk to you next week.
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