September 28, 2023 • 41 mins
Are you feeling sandwiched between the responsibilities of child-rearing and elder care? You're not alone! Listen in as we welcome our special guest, Mary Remmes, a seasoned nursing home administrator and life coach. Mary captivates us with her wealth of knowledge on handling the complexities of health care for the elderly.
With Mary's empathetic insights, we delve into how to listen to and understand our parents’ needs and goals. We tackle the hard but necessary conversations without making our parents feel defensive. Mary's strategies on how to approach these conversations with compassion and understanding are invaluable. She offers advice on how to gather information, initiate small dialogues and respect that our parents' life goals may differ from ours.
Finally, we broach the topic of those tough conversations with our parents. Mary shares her expertise on handling our parents' fear of the unknown and how to avoid rushed decisions. She emphasizes the importance of evaluating the situation objectively and respecting our parents' wishes, even if they make us uncomfortable. Ensuring a safe environment that doesn't compromise their independence and dignity is paramount. You'll come away with actionable advice for balancing your relationship with your aging parents while ensuring their needs are met. So, join us for this enlightening and much-needed perspective on caring for our beloved seniors.
ABOUT Mary:
Mary Remmes is a certified Life Coach & Aging Parent guide.
She leverages her years of experience as a licensed nursing home administrator with her skill as a life coach to help adult children navigate the ever-changing landscape of life with an aging parent.
Her own mother suffered from dementia & Mary, along with her 4 siblings, experienced the myriad of circumstances and emotions that come with caring for an aging parent in decline & in need of care.
As your life coach, she will help you create more of what you want in your life with an aging parent.
FREE GIFT from Mary:
"How to Feel Better....no matter how crazy your situation seems"
This short video & workbook will help you find the perspective you need to create more peace and less angst in your life. Get it on her Website.
CONNECT with Mary:
Website | Facebook | LinkedIn
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CONNECT with Inviting Shift on Social:
Email me and tell me what you think: christina@christina-smith.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Christina Smith (00:00):
Well, welcome back shifters.
This week, our guest is MaryRemmes, and she is going to talk
to us about managing the carefor our aging parents, and I
know that this is happening fora lot of us in midlife.
I think they call us like thesandwich kind of generation,
where we're still raising kidsand we might be caring for older
(00:21):
parents as well, and so I don'tknow much about this subject.
So I thought I should reach outto someone who really knows
something about that, and thatis Mary.
Mary works with people to helpthem manage those relationships
and manage how to move forwardin a good way with our aging
parents.
So welcome to the show, mary.
(00:42):
I appreciate you being here,thanks.
Mary Remmes (00:44):
Christina, I'm thrilled to be here.
I love talking about all thingsold people- Well, fantastic.
Christina Smith (00:51):
Tell us a little bit more about yourself
and how you got to doing whatyou're doing, and then we'll go
right into it.
Mary Remmes (00:58):
Sure, I actually started out my career as a
nursing home administrator andthat was kind of my accident.
It turns out that's exactly whatI was supposed to be doing.
So I worked as a nursing homeadministrator and then started
having children.
So I was home raising mychildren for about 18 years and
when I decided to go back towork, I knew what I wanted to do
(01:18):
, and it involved working withthe senior population, but not
in the delivery of long-termcare as an administrator,
because that had become reallymore regulatory and HR issues,
which is not what I wanted to do.
So I got involved in providingcompanion care to seniors in
their homes and then experiencedthe benefit of a life coach
(01:41):
myself with another familymatter and I had.
It was like an aha moment.
It's like I can help so manypeople, so many more people, as
a coach for adult children asthey navigate everything that
comes with an aging parent.
So I'm able to pair what I knowabout the delivery of long-term
(02:01):
care as an administrator,understanding the complexities
of health care with my skills oflife coach to help people
navigate this reallyever-shifting period in their
life.
Christina Smith (02:15):
Beautiful.
What a unique set of gifts toput together and really serve
people.
Because, although I haven'texperienced it yet, I know a lot
of my clients do go throughthis, like how do we manage this
care?
How do we convince mom that shecan't drive anymore?
How do we get them to give usanswers when they don't want to
(02:38):
tell us what's going on withtheir health?
There are so many questions,and so what are some of the
biggest questions or the biggeststruggles that you help adult
children with?
Mary Remmes (02:50):
Well, you touched on a few of them and I think
you're so spot on and yourlisteners are so spot on,
because we don't think aboutthis until we find ourselves
right in the middle of it, andit's usually because of a crisis
.
And I find that when we'retrying to be in a relationship
with our parents in the midst ofa crisis, when we're trying to
(03:11):
make decisions in crisis mode,there's just so many
opportunities for things to gowrong.
But to your question about whatare the most common things that
people face, I think it'simportant to realize, no matter
what we're facing, is that ouraging parents' goals for their
life are probably vastlydifferent than our goals for
(03:34):
their life.
In that right, they want to beindependent, they want their
autonomy and they want to, andthey will do that even if it
means they're in very riskysituations when they may not
live as long.
That's, their priority is to beindependent and live life the
way they want to the adult child.
(03:54):
Naturally, our goal for them isto stay safe and to keep them
alive as long as we possibly can.
So you can see, there's thisnatural conflict that's built in
as our aging parents get oldand we become more involved in
the care and keeping of ouraging parents.
So I think sometimes justrealizing that natural conflict
(04:15):
is there is helpful.
Christina Smith (04:20):
Right, right, and knowing that they're like
their own people, right, I mean,that's the big thing.
It seems like we're parentingour parents, but we can't really
parent Our parents can becausethey are sovereign individuals
on their own, so for us to tellthem how to live is hard.
Mary Remmes (04:41):
It's very hard and you're absolutely right,
christina when we have thethought I need to parent my
parent.
That already puts us out ofalignment with who we are in the
relationship and who they arein the relationship, so that
sets us up for a very, veryrocky road.
I think that in a perfect world, in an ideal world, if we can
(05:06):
have conversations with ourparents, small conversations
along the way and conversationsthat have twice as many
questions as they do directives-for instance.
Christina Smith (05:19):
So a lot of listening.
Mary Remmes (05:23):
And that's not natural for us, but it becomes
so important and so valuable forus when we are dealing with
aging parents and a lot of smallconversations along the way is
more productive, but it's nothow we're naturally inclined to
do it, typically what we do.
(05:44):
And ask me how I know this, Idid it myself right is we bite
our tongue.
we sit back and we watch and westart compiling all this
evidence for why we think momshould fill in the blank.
And then something happens andwe're like, okay, I'm going in,
we're having the conversationright, it's the come to Jesus
(06:05):
meeting.
Christina Smith (06:08):
At the end of this meeting, you're going to
have everything resolved right,and that's not exactly how our
conversations work.
Mary Remmes (06:18):
What happens is that we go in on the offensive
and they become defensive and itusually blows up.
So having small conversations,asking questions like, for
instance, let's say, your motheris a widow and she's still
living in the home that you allgrew up in and there's a lot of
(06:39):
care, that there's a lot ofupkeep that is involved with
that, instead of saying you know, mom, it's probably time we had
the conversation about sellingthe house that's going to put
her on the offensive mode.
Right, makes sense from ourperspective.
This is what needs to happen.
But imagine if you went in andsaid you know, mom, tell me what
do you love living in thishouse by yourself and what's
(07:05):
hard about it?
Right, tell me both sides andthen just listen to what she
says.
That's just one example of howto ask questions that give you
information that's going to behelpful in knowing what
direction do we go.
What's mom?
Christina Smith (07:25):
What is it?
Yeah, it's almost like becominga life coach for mom, like.
Instead of like saying you haveto go do this thing, it's like,
well, let's figure out what itis that you're actually craving
and what you're actually lovingabout being in this house, and
that'll help us if we do want tomove you into a place that
you're going to get some of thesame things that you're loving
(07:48):
and being able to think reallydeeply about that rather than,
oh, this is just a new thing,it's a nice place and there's
some people here and you mightlike them, right.
And what I really love that yousaid earlier was waiting, not
waiting until we're in panicmode and fix it mode, and now
something really has to change,right, because then we're going
(08:09):
in with that energy of likealmost force, like this has to
change now, because I'm panicthat you're unsafe, you're
taking risks or you're not goingto be able to do this by
yourself.
And when we're in that mode, Icall it halts hungry, angry,
lonely, tired, sick.
But that's a different type ofdiscomfort, and whenever we're
uncomfortable, that is not thebest time to have these longer
(08:34):
conversations.
So starting early is what I'mhearing from you first is like
start before you think you mightneed to, so that you can start
figuring these things out aheadof time so there isn't a panic.
And then the next step.
I'm just summarizing what we'vealready said because I want to
make sure everybody's clear onthis, because it's a big topic.
(08:55):
Asking lots of questions andlistening a lot yeah, fantastic.
And we can do the same thing,I'm guessing, if dad's driving
and he starts getting tickets orwhatever and we start getting
unsafe like he still drive.
So instead we might be able toask questions like what?
Mary Remmes (09:20):
Like that, I would say, and the driving
conversation hands down the mostvolatile conversation and the
one that we do the worst at asadult children, because what we
do is we take the keys right orwe send somebody in and
somebody's going to take thefall on this one and I'm going
to be the bad guy.
(09:41):
And it's just such a difficulttime in life and I think that if
we can first of all prepareourselves mentally and just
thinking about it from theirperspective and I like to remind
people remember what it waslike when you were 16 and you
got your driver's license, yourwhole world opened up.
It was exhilarating, it wasjust such an expansive feeling.
(10:03):
And now the opposite of that isgoing to be happening, because
when somebody no longer drives,their world becomes very small.
And so just to have somecompassion for how difficult
this is for your aging parentand how difficult this for you
to be in this role, to be theone to have to guide them to
(10:24):
giving up driving but I think Imean you ask what would that
look like with that conversation?
I think if you have the abilityto do it early on, like you
know, dad, there might come aday when driving gets to be too
much for you.
What are the indicators thatyou want me to bring to your
attention, if I ever notice them?
Christina Smith (10:47):
So instead of using our own indicators sorry,
I was just saying instead ofusing our own indicators, like I
think, instead I can be likewhat is your checkbox?
What looks unsafe to you?
Mary Remmes (11:01):
And just listen right.
Because we're going to want tointerject, but if we can ask
that question and just listenand see what they say, and
sometimes they'll shut down.
They don't want to have thatconversation, right.
It's very frightening for themto have that conversation, the
fear of losing that.
And that's why I say severalsmall conversations, you know so
(11:24):
it doesn't go.
So maybe they shut down thefirst time, come back around to
the conversation in two weeks ornext month.
I wouldn't ever recommend havingthat conversation while you're
in the car with them, right?
It's a conversation when you'renot, you know, when driving
isn't even on the table.
Just a conversation here, justa natural conversation that
(11:46):
you're having, human to human,respecting that one day we're
going to be them.
How do I want my kid talking tome?
How do I want my child to cometo me with?
I think a lot of this is goingto make sense to us when we
become them.
Christina Smith (12:04):
Yeah, too bad, it'll be too old to help them
through it.
When I think about it, becauseI did work in some retirement
homes and I've, you know,caretaked people who are older,
and that was like the biggestthing for them was like moving
in meant leaving their cars,because the place that I was at
(12:28):
did not have their cars.
You know the parents, the kidscould be convincing them that,
oh, but you have everything youneed here, you can order
anything here, but it still washard because it's like giving up
control of your own life, andso I really love this way of
(12:48):
like you're even bonding abetter relationship with them.
Right, like this is aboutreally understanding your
parents, where maybe a lot of usdidn't spend a lot of time
really understanding what ourparents liked about their life,
what they don't like about theirlife, what they find too hard
now, and instead of like I knowwhen my husband talks to his
(13:10):
parents, it's just about theirhealth problems like, oh, this
is the problem, this is what thedoctor said, and blah, blah,
blah.
Instead of like.
But what does that mean for thequality of living that you have?
Right, how can I help youincrease the quality of your
life while you're still here,and I think that this one big
(13:30):
one that we were talking aboutearlier is the thing that hits
me is like when you, when wewant them to be around, oh, we
want them to be around until ourkids are getting married and go
to the wedding and everything,but that may not be their goal,
right?
That may not be their goal.
(13:51):
Their goal might be I want tolive as wild as I can for the
next five years rather than youknow, trying just to be healthy
for the next 25.
And I think that that's a realhard conversation rather than
well, my opinion's right,because you live longer.
Mary Remmes (14:11):
You know it's so interesting.
I'm glad that you brought thatup because it's so important to
think about.
What am I making theirdecisions mean about me?
You know you said that youbrought it up.
Christina Smith (14:24):
As far as we're telling ourselves about it?
Mary Remmes (14:26):
Yes, because it's not that they don't want to be
around for their grandchildren'swedding.
It's that how they live theirlife is so important to them,
and being around for thegrandparent or the grandchild's
wedding might not be at the topof their list, it doesn't mean
that they don't want to be there.
(14:47):
It means that they want tostructure their life in a way.
They want to live their lifeRight.
And one of the things that Ithink it's so important because
we all have a story about whoand how our parents are and
everything that they do and say.
Our brain wants to use evidenceto prove our story is correct.
(15:07):
So if I think, oh, my dad isjust always so obstinate and I
attempt to have a conversationwith him about driving and he
disagrees or he shuts down, I go.
Well, there you go.
My dad's just obstinate, rightas opposed to.
This is a hard conversation.
This is a hard time in his lifebecause he feels like his world
(15:29):
is getting smaller.
Maybe it's not obstinate, it isgiving up.
It's just him processing whathe's giving up.
Yeah, yeah.
So to feel that there's a lotthat we give up yeah, there is a
lot that we give up and to beable to build on that
relationship with them.
Because I think we always I'mgoing to assume that most of us
(15:51):
want to create connection withour elderly parents and we
inadvertently so many times putup walls because we're over here
thinking I've got, I've got toparent my parent right, I've got
to make decisions for them tokeep them safe, and they're over
(16:11):
there thinking they're tryingto take control of my life.
Christina Smith (16:16):
So there's your opposite from when we were
children, right?
I mean, that's exactly theconversation we had with them,
only backwards, like I'm tryingto live my life as a teenager
and you're trying to keep medown and make all these
decisions for me, and that's notfair.
I'm an adult, right?
And now we're having those sametypes of conversations and I
(16:37):
really love this part about likeunderstanding that it's a story
that we're telling ourselvesabout, about how they're showing
up and and, of course, the egoalways makes it about us, right.
Like oh, they don't care aboutme.
If they don't, if they don'teat well every day and exercise
and do all the things that Ithink they should be doing, they
(17:00):
must not care about me.
And I think that there is thisbig part that we have to
remember of like freedom ofchoice, them being able to
decide hey, if I want to eatcheeseburgers every day, and
that's the quality of life thatI want to have, then that's the
quality of life I should be ableto have.
Right, maybe there's anegotiation in there, right for
(17:21):
health issues.
But if that's really what theywant, then that's their choice.
And I think that we forget thatas they start to become unable
to do some things, we startthinking like oh well, then
somebody has to take over theirlife so that they can do these
things as long as possible.
But their choice might be I'drather not live forever and have
(17:43):
a boring life of.
You know, salads and vegetables, right?
Mary Remmes (17:49):
Yeah, and so there has to be a big respect there.
I think that it's advantageousif we can get ourselves to that
point of being respectful ofwhat they want, even when we
disagree with it, or I wouldeven say, especially when we
disagree with it, because adultsget to make bad choices every
(18:12):
day and we watch people make badchoices every day, and I think
it's helpful in this time alsoto believe, like to remember in
this space, that everybody'sreally doing their best, and
sometimes the best isn't verygood, and that goes for us too,
(18:32):
right?
Christina Smith (18:34):
We always do our best.
Mary Remmes (18:35):
Sometimes our best isn't very good, but it's still
our best in that moment andallowing that to be enough is
really important, especially aswe partner in the care for aging
parents, because we can go downthe path of I should be doing
more, this person's doing less,I should.
You know, my life doesn't looklike theirs.
(18:56):
It's just so many, so muchdrama that we can create for
ourselves and if we can have thecompassion for ourselves and
knowing that I'm doing my bestand usually that's pretty good
Sometimes it's not very good andI love all of me through it
this is a completely differentpath that we would think of what
we had talked about, but Ithink that it plays into no but
(19:17):
I love this because right now Ihave a client who she lives with
her fiance's mother.
Christina Smith (19:28):
They both do because they were caretaking her
, but they wanna move away fromthat house and she's like trying
to tell all of the siblings heylook, there's things going on,
we need to be aware, blah, blah,and they're all like we're
gonna deal with it when it comes.
you know, Like, and so, like, myadvice to her was like, well,
(19:49):
what are the things that you canactually do?
Right, what is that you canactually control?
Cause you can't control thiswoman, you can't control the
siblings, what is it that youcan control?
And once you realize, like,well, hold on, like that is my
best, me trying to talk to theirsiblings is the best, like
(20:09):
that's all I'm reallyresponsible for.
And I think that you know wecan tell ourselves a story
because of that discomfort, oflike thinking of them hurting
themselves or even passing, thatwe want to control everything.
And if they would just, youknow, the whole world if the
world would just behave the waythat I wanted it to.
Mary Remmes (20:33):
We would be so much favor.
We know that everybody shoulddo we do, we do.
Sometimes we have a hard timekeeping our own lives on track,
but we know what everybody elseshould do.
Christina Smith (20:45):
Yeah, yeah.
So then we can definitely tellourselves stories about
ourselves like I'm not doingenough, I'm not, but we have to
also remember that we have torelease control of.
That is what I'm hearing is thatrelease some of that control,
because you aren't their parents, you can't ground them and put
them in their room, right, youcan't take away their phone and
(21:05):
call it a day.
And so I love this about havingall these teeny, tiny, small
conversations, like keeping itas, like this ongoing thing.
It's so important because evenwhen people say I'm going to go
have this hard conversation andI'm like I hope you don't think
you're going to have the end allbe all answer at the end of it
because most hard conversationsdo not go that way there's a lot
(21:28):
of like okay, I heard you, youheard me.
Now we have to go away andprocess a little bit and really
think about what the best way is.
Maybe we can have anotherconversation in two weeks, and
that takes the pressure offright Of us having to get
offensive, them gettingdefensive.
We're just talking.
That's all we're doing isasking questions and talking,
(21:49):
which is so important, and letsus just let go of that control.
Mary Remmes (21:55):
It does.
It does you know?
I, yeah, it's.
I'm glad that you you talkedabout, you know, having that
hard conversation and we kind oftouched on that earlier that we
go in we all have an agenda andbeing able to set our agenda
aside to listen to what theother person is really thinking
(22:16):
and feeling.
Most of us are coming withaging parents.
Most of us are coming into thismotivated by fear Fear of what's
gonna happen if or fear thatthey're gonna fall, or fear that
you know something bad is goingto happen, and we tend to make
our decisions then based on fear, which I have never made a good
(22:39):
decision because fueled by fear.
Christina Smith (22:42):
No, no, especially at panicked fear,
right when you're in that state.
Mary Remmes (22:46):
Yeah, so you know that awareness that you're
talking about, thatself-awareness of you know,
realizing, stepping back andsaying, all right, let's slow
this down, and it's so.
That's one of the things that'skind of ironic.
We feel like it's all anemergency because they're old,
they don't have much time leftright.
Their time is limited, whichputs a tremendous amount of
(23:07):
pressure on us, thinking that wehave to make the right decision
, or it limits our ability to.
What we really need to do isslow everything down and take a
step back and say, okay, what'sreally happening here, what are
the facts of the situation, andthen sort out those facts from
(23:30):
the story that we're tellingourselves about mom or dad.
Christina Smith (23:35):
Which is the worst case scenario.
That's hard to do yeah, yeah.
Mary Remmes (23:39):
Our brains immediately go to the worst case
scenario.
Christina Smith (23:42):
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Somebody's going to knock ontheir door and take advantage of
them.
Somebody is going to, yeah,like, or they, like you said
they're going to fall, they'regoing to get in an accident.
We think it's going to happenright now.
And that panic state makes ussay it has to happen right now,
and I've said this to my clientsso much whenever you're in that
state of it has to happen rightnow.
If it's not an immediate safetyconcern, like as long as
(24:06):
they're not out drinking anddriving right now and wobbling
all over the road like then, wejust need to take a breath and
regroup before we get there.
So it's interesting that theseconversations are the same, no
matter how you know.
Because couldn't we use thesetips for any conversation that
we're having?
(24:27):
Right, even if it's like a bigthing, like I think I might want
to divorce my husband orsomething, well, we don't start
with, like, the divorceconversation.
We start with lots of littleconversations, right, but that's
kind of what we're doing to ourolder parents when we are, when
we are like, oh, you need tostop driving today, you need to,
(24:48):
we need to find you a homeright now to go move to or
whatever.
Those are big decisions andsome of these people you know
they've been driving for 60years, they've been living in
the same house maybe for 40years.
That's a lot of change, that'snot.
And as we get older I don'tknow, at least for me change
takes me a little longer than itused to take right, like in my
(25:11):
teenage years.
I could take off and go to thebeach, but now it's like I got a
plan to make sure I have allthe things and the reservations
you know one thing that Isometimes think about, I wonder,
christina, is is our parents'generation, the last generation,
why this driving thing is goingto be such a big deal?
Mary Remmes (25:29):
Because you and I and it's definitely not going to
be an issue for our kids, forus we're like the first
generation that has utilizedUber, lyft, all those things.
So that's going to carry usfurther into our senior years
utilizing those services.
So I wonder if another twogenerations this driving
(25:53):
conversation it's going to fallto the bottom of issues that
families have Kind of supercurious about that.
I love studying sociology and,you know, going out 30,000 feet
in a city I don't know what it'sgoing to be like in 50 years.
Christina Smith (26:06):
I'm curious too , because as I get older, I mean
even now I don't like driving.
I wish I had a driver, right.
So I mean, as I get older, Imay not have that issue so much
either, because I'll be like Idon't like driving at night
either.
You're right, I should get acab or an Uber or Lyft or
something, and that would befine and you can still get
around to wherever you want.
(26:27):
It's really just those longerdrives that you're really
missing, and a lot of olderpeople don't drive far right,
Like they don't.
They just go around town, soit's really not that big of a
deal.
If they're going on a biggertrip, they're probably going
with someone else.
And so that might make it easier.
Yeah, yeah, that is a question,but we'll always have that
(26:49):
question of like when is it timeto I hate to say like shorten,
but like when is it time tobring down not their rights, but
like to really have theseconversations of being like,
well, you know, this is a reallybig house, mom Like do you
really want to be here forever?
(27:10):
You spend all your time takingcare of it and it seems like a
lot, you know.
And so I love these, havingthese small conversations and we
can just further it right, andin these small conversations,
would you suggest sharing someof what we feel as well, like
some of our concerns, maybe notat a, not at a you have to move
(27:33):
right now, kind of thing.
But, mom, I do have someconcerns about you know how you
take care of this, or you knowthat it's those stairs are too
much for you, or whatever it is.
Mary Remmes (27:45):
It's always an opportunity to do that for the
purpose of creating a connectionwith them, and I think that I'm
the advocate for the parent inthat.
Always defer, I mean I can have.
I can have and share my, myfears and my concerns, but what
(28:07):
they want always takes precedent.
Christina Smith (28:11):
And that's where my work is, like I
mentioned before, with doing myown work with coming to terms
with.
Mary Remmes (28:17):
I don't like their decision, but I'll respect their
decision.
Now, if we're in a situationwhere somebody's got moderate
cognitive decline and you knowand somebody is in danger of
this say there's a spouse orsomething, that's a whole other
conversation, but a parent whois just contiguing in their
meals yeah, yeah.
And wanting to stay in theirhome, even if it means they
(28:39):
never see anybody.
They don't interact with people.
They interact with people.
The grass is growing Like crazy.
I Think it's our job to allowthem to be that way as long as
possible.
I think it's insertingOurselves and inserting I guess
(29:00):
forcing our will on them Alwaysthe last resort, like it's
nothing else.
I think it's always the lastresort because I think you asked
when do you think?
Never, if possible, but never?
If possible, the absolute lastpossible minute.
Christina Smith (29:18):
Hmm, it's hard and I think about that because
my, my grandfather was a littlebit Abusive to my grandmother
and they were like a real sizedifference, so it became a lot
and so she ended up putting himin a home where he was also
abusive but at least there waslike orderly, isn't what?
Not to take care of that.
But like if my, if my motherwould have gone in and been like
(29:42):
, oh, this is unacceptable, youneed to move in a home, he never
would have dug that at all.
But but I Guess I guess, yeah,this is so interesting because
this is really about allowingsomebody else to live, even if
it makes you uncomfortable,right, even if it makes you
(30:02):
uncomfortable that they're intheir own home alone or driving.
This is really about managingour discomfort around it and
Recognizing that they are stilltheir own human and can still,
you know, make their own choices.
Now, what happens when they arein a cognitive decline?
(30:22):
Like what if they're living athome and they're constantly
forgetting to turn the stove offor you know something?
Dangerous things are happening.
How do we, how does that changeat all?
Mary Remmes (30:36):
The way that we manage that.
You can change things and Ithink that the most important
thing In that situation is to becertain that you've got all of
your legal ducks in a row andthat you've got, because you
know there's different levels oflegalities, like the durable
power of attorney for medicaldecisions, for financial
(30:56):
decisions, etc.
And this is the great area thatadult children live in for a
very long time and it's veryuncomfortable for us.
You can I mean you can, you canforce somebody into a secure
living environment, but it'sjust you just want to avoid that
(31:19):
at all costs.
So in this situation wheresomebody is becoming Forgetful,
they're leaving the stove on.
I'd probably disconnect thestove.
I mean, there's a lot of thingsthat we can do to create a safe
environment.
Christina Smith (31:32):
Before we actually yeah we have to play
the part of I'm forcing you sothe least amount of intrusion
that we can do.
Yes, I'm saying and there areorganizations.
Mary Remmes (31:46):
There's companies out there that can help you.
Go in.
They can.
They can go in and do anassessment in the home and Make
a recommendation for you all thethings that you can do to
create a safe environment.
We're very good.
We live in a time and a day andage where we can have Uber eats
deliver food most places well,not some real, real world places
, no but you can have groceriesdelivered.
(32:08):
I mean, there's a lot of thingsthat we have in place now that
make Somebody being alone intheir own, even when they've got
some mild cognitive impairment,it still makes it possible.
Hmm, even, you know, havingsomebody go out and check on
them, you know, once a day, or.
There's a lot of things that wecan put in place to, like you
(32:30):
said, create bumpers to keepthem in the home.
Yeah, they want to be there.
Christina Smith (32:36):
Yeah, and that's a really beautiful way of
doing it right.
And then it may come for themthat, like over time, there's so
many bumpers that it just wouldbe more comfortable living in
another place than being, youknow, at home, which is fine,
you know, but again that becomestheir choice.
What a lovely conversation.
(32:57):
I don't think I've ever evenwhen I worked in the retirement
homes like I've never had thesetypes of conversations to really
Understand.
Usually, when, by the timethey've come to our retirement
home or our care home, it wasalready decided whether or not
they enjoyed it, and you couldtell the ones who enjoyed it and
(33:19):
the ones who did not.
And I mean, even even there Idon't know if there's studies on
this, but the more that theyhated having to move out of
their home and and goingsomewhere else, it seems like
the shorter their lifespan wasanyway, because they were so
angry about it.
And there was plenty of timeswhere there was one older man
(33:41):
who would Steal the limo fromout front and like drive home,
and we'd have to like go findhim again because he didn't have
his car anymore or he wanted togo home to his car and, and so
he would always have to go tohis house to find him because he
would be outside going.
Why don't my keys fit anymore,you know?
And so so, allowing them tolive with their own dignity as
(34:07):
how they want to, as long asthey can, as long as they're
being safe ish, because we'realways gonna have ideas.
Right, just like when we haveteenage kids, we're gonna have
ideas of what safe is andthey're gonna have ideas what
safe is, and they rarely do thetwo actually meet, and so this
(34:27):
has been a really lovelyconversation.
What I learned about today wasto start earlier than you think.
You Don't start before youthink.
You need to have theconversation right now so that
you can really get to know yourparents and here you know what
it is that they want and so thatyou can really get to know them
a little bit, like what is itthat you like about your life
(34:49):
and what is it that you don'tlike about how hard or the
hardness of getting old and whatyou know.
What can I help you with?
Rather than?
This needs to change right now,because I deem it's not safe,
which is not the best way to goFor somebody who's had like
sovereignty over their ownchoices for 70, 80 years.
(35:09):
It can be really challenging,so start these conversations as
soon as possible.
Lots of questions, lots oflistening and yeah, what a
lovely way to move forward andthen let control.
Let control go and realize thatthat's not really your job.
Mary Remmes (35:29):
Yeah, the only thing that you can control is
how do you show up in theconversation with them.
And I would add Please giveyourself so much grace and so
much.
Just be exquisitely kind toyourself, because this is hard
stuff, me and you.
You're not going to get itright all the time, that's okay.
(35:51):
We just have to be so kind toourselves.
I think it's in the being kindto ourselves that we have a
greater capacity to extend thatcompassion and kindness to the
other humans in our world and weforget that, and then we also
take on less guilt about like Icouldn't control that.
Christina Smith (36:08):
Well, no, you can't control that right.
Like that's not, that's beyondyour control.
And I love because it's what Ialways say to my clients the
only thing that you can controlis the way that you show up,
that's it.
You can't control how otherpeople are going to behave or
other things are going to happen, but you always can control the
way that you show up.
And so getting to thoseconversations early, I know for
(36:29):
me would be so much better thangetting into that panic spot of
like, oh, now we're worriedabout this risk, the safety risk
or whatever.
What a lovely conversation.
Thank you, Mary.
I know that you have a littlegifty gift for us.
You want to tell us about that.
Mary Remmes (36:47):
I do.
I have a little.
It's a.
It's a little training that Iput together that I've done for
years, and it's called how tofeel better, no matter how crazy
your situation feels.
And it's just a.
It's a.
It's a 20 minute video with aworksheet that you work through
and you come to the video with,whatever your situation is.
It can involve aging parents,it can involve anything a
(37:08):
teenage daughter, a husband,anything.
I show you how to break it downand get clarity around what's
really happening, how you'recurrently thinking about it and
how you want to think about it,moving forward so that you feel
at least a little bit betterabout whatever's happening.
And that, um, yeah, thatthat'll be available on our
(37:28):
website.
Christina Smith (37:30):
Yeah, I'll put it right, the link right below,
so you can go click it and clickon that.
That sounds really lovelybecause we all need that's a way
that we can start pooling ourstories out like what's real
data versus what are we makingup around it, because we've seen
so many scary stories.
Mary Remmes (37:51):
Yes, we're all good storytellers.
Christina Smith (37:54):
We are excellent storytellers.
Often we don't even know we'retelling stories.
We take it as truth and andthat's where our struggles can
often lie.
Thank you so much for beinghere today and thank you,
shifters for tuning in yeah.
I saw you when I was talkingabout it, and thank you,
shifters, for tuning in too, andI hope that this was helpful,
(38:16):
especially if you're havingstruggles with, I mean, this.
This conversation is reallyhelpful, not just with aging
parents, but basically anyone,because it like shows us that we
don't really have control overother people.
But having these smallconversations and trying to
understand that other person'spoint of view first is going to
be a lot more helpful than justpushing forward with what we
(38:40):
think and what we know andcontrolling the situation.
So lovely.
Thank you so much again andy'all have a great day.
Well, welcome back shifters.
This week, our guest is MaryRemmes, and she is going to talk
to us about managing the carefor our aging parents, and I
know that this is happening fora lot of us in midlife.
I think they call us like thesandwich kind of generation,
where we're still raising kidsand we might be caring for older
(00:21):
parents as well, and so I don'tknow much about this subject.
So I thought I should reach outto someone who really knows
something about that, and thatis Mary.
Mary works with people to helpthem manage those relationships
and manage how to move forwardin a good way with our aging
parents.
So welcome to the show, mary.
(00:42):
I appreciate you being here,thanks.
Mary Remmes (00:44):
Christina, I'm thrilled to be here.
I love talking about all thingsold people- Well, fantastic.
Christina Smith (00:51):
Tell us a little bit more about yourself
and how you got to doing whatyou're doing, and then we'll go
right into it.
Mary Remmes (00:58):
Sure, I actually started out my career as a
nursing home administrator andthat was kind of my accident.
It turns out that's exactly whatI was supposed to be doing.
So I worked as a nursing homeadministrator and then started
having children.
So I was home raising mychildren for about 18 years and
when I decided to go back towork, I knew what I wanted to do
(01:18):
, and it involved working withthe senior population, but not
in the delivery of long-termcare as an administrator,
because that had become reallymore regulatory and HR issues,
which is not what I wanted to do.
So I got involved in providingcompanion care to seniors in
their homes and then experiencedthe benefit of a life coach
(01:41):
myself with another familymatter and I had.
It was like an aha moment.
It's like I can help so manypeople, so many more people, as
a coach for adult children asthey navigate everything that
comes with an aging parent.
So I'm able to pair what I knowabout the delivery of long-term
(02:01):
care as an administrator,understanding the complexities
of health care with my skills oflife coach to help people
navigate this reallyever-shifting period in their
life.
Christina Smith (02:15):
Beautiful.
What a unique set of gifts toput together and really serve
people.
Because, although I haven'texperienced it yet, I know a lot
of my clients do go throughthis, like how do we manage this
care?
How do we convince mom that shecan't drive anymore?
How do we get them to give usanswers when they don't want to
(02:38):
tell us what's going on withtheir health?
There are so many questions,and so what are some of the
biggest questions or the biggeststruggles that you help adult
children with?
Mary Remmes (02:50):
Well, you touched on a few of them and I think
you're so spot on and yourlisteners are so spot on,
because we don't think aboutthis until we find ourselves
right in the middle of it, andit's usually because of a crisis
.
And I find that when we'retrying to be in a relationship
with our parents in the midst ofa crisis, when we're trying to
(03:11):
make decisions in crisis mode,there's just so many
opportunities for things to gowrong.
But to your question about whatare the most common things that
people face, I think it'simportant to realize, no matter
what we're facing, is that ouraging parents' goals for their
life are probably vastlydifferent than our goals for
(03:34):
their life.
In that right, they want to beindependent, they want their
autonomy and they want to, andthey will do that even if it
means they're in very riskysituations when they may not
live as long.
That's, their priority is to beindependent and live life the
way they want to the adult child.
(03:54):
Naturally, our goal for them isto stay safe and to keep them
alive as long as we possibly can.
So you can see, there's thisnatural conflict that's built in
as our aging parents get oldand we become more involved in
the care and keeping of ouraging parents.
So I think sometimes justrealizing that natural conflict
(04:15):
is there is helpful.
Christina Smith (04:20):
Right, right, and knowing that they're like
their own people, right, I mean,that's the big thing.
It seems like we're parentingour parents, but we can't really
parent Our parents can becausethey are sovereign individuals
on their own, so for us to tellthem how to live is hard.
Mary Remmes (04:41):
It's very hard and you're absolutely right,
christina when we have thethought I need to parent my
parent.
That already puts us out ofalignment with who we are in the
relationship and who they arein the relationship, so that
sets us up for a very, veryrocky road.
I think that in a perfect world, in an ideal world, if we can
(05:06):
have conversations with ourparents, small conversations
along the way and conversationsthat have twice as many
questions as they do directives-for instance.
Christina Smith (05:19):
So a lot of listening.
Mary Remmes (05:23):
And that's not natural for us, but it becomes
so important and so valuable forus when we are dealing with
aging parents and a lot of smallconversations along the way is
more productive, but it's nothow we're naturally inclined to
do it, typically what we do.
(05:44):
And ask me how I know this, Idid it myself right is we bite
our tongue.
we sit back and we watch and westart compiling all this
evidence for why we think momshould fill in the blank.
And then something happens andwe're like, okay, I'm going in,
we're having the conversationright, it's the come to Jesus
(06:05):
meeting.
Christina Smith (06:08):
At the end of this meeting, you're going to
have everything resolved right,and that's not exactly how our
conversations work.
Mary Remmes (06:18):
What happens is that we go in on the offensive
and they become defensive and itusually blows up.
So having small conversations,asking questions like, for
instance, let's say, your motheris a widow and she's still
living in the home that you allgrew up in and there's a lot of
(06:39):
care, that there's a lot ofupkeep that is involved with
that, instead of saying you know, mom, it's probably time we had
the conversation about sellingthe house that's going to put
her on the offensive mode.
Right, makes sense from ourperspective.
This is what needs to happen.
But imagine if you went in andsaid you know, mom, tell me what
do you love living in thishouse by yourself and what's
(07:05):
hard about it?
Right, tell me both sides andthen just listen to what she
says.
That's just one example of howto ask questions that give you
information that's going to behelpful in knowing what
direction do we go.
What's mom?
Christina Smith (07:25):
What is it?
Yeah, it's almost like becominga life coach for mom, like.
Instead of like saying you haveto go do this thing, it's like,
well, let's figure out what itis that you're actually craving
and what you're actually lovingabout being in this house, and
that'll help us if we do want tomove you into a place that
you're going to get some of thesame things that you're loving
(07:48):
and being able to think reallydeeply about that rather than,
oh, this is just a new thing,it's a nice place and there's
some people here and you mightlike them, right.
And what I really love that yousaid earlier was waiting, not
waiting until we're in panicmode and fix it mode, and now
something really has to change,right, because then we're going
(08:09):
in with that energy of likealmost force, like this has to
change now, because I'm panicthat you're unsafe, you're
taking risks or you're not goingto be able to do this by
yourself.
And when we're in that mode, Icall it halts hungry, angry,
lonely, tired, sick.
But that's a different type ofdiscomfort, and whenever we're
uncomfortable, that is not thebest time to have these longer
(08:34):
conversations.
So starting early is what I'mhearing from you first is like
start before you think you mightneed to, so that you can start
figuring these things out aheadof time so there isn't a panic.
And then the next step.
I'm just summarizing what we'vealready said because I want to
make sure everybody's clear onthis, because it's a big topic.
(08:55):
Asking lots of questions andlistening a lot yeah, fantastic.
And we can do the same thing,I'm guessing, if dad's driving
and he starts getting tickets orwhatever and we start getting
unsafe like he still drive.
So instead we might be able toask questions like what?
Mary Remmes (09:20):
Like that, I would say, and the driving
conversation hands down the mostvolatile conversation and the
one that we do the worst at asadult children, because what we
do is we take the keys right orwe send somebody in and
somebody's going to take thefall on this one and I'm going
to be the bad guy.
(09:41):
And it's just such a difficulttime in life and I think that if
we can first of all prepareourselves mentally and just
thinking about it from theirperspective and I like to remind
people remember what it waslike when you were 16 and you
got your driver's license, yourwhole world opened up.
It was exhilarating, it wasjust such an expansive feeling.
(10:03):
And now the opposite of that isgoing to be happening, because
when somebody no longer drives,their world becomes very small.
And so just to have somecompassion for how difficult
this is for your aging parentand how difficult this for you
to be in this role, to be theone to have to guide them to
(10:24):
giving up driving but I think Imean you ask what would that
look like with that conversation?
I think if you have the abilityto do it early on, like you
know, dad, there might come aday when driving gets to be too
much for you.
What are the indicators thatyou want me to bring to your
attention, if I ever notice them?
Christina Smith (10:47):
So instead of using our own indicators sorry,
I was just saying instead ofusing our own indicators, like I
think, instead I can be likewhat is your checkbox?
What looks unsafe to you?
Mary Remmes (11:01):
And just listen right.
Because we're going to want tointerject, but if we can ask
that question and just listenand see what they say, and
sometimes they'll shut down.
They don't want to have thatconversation, right.
It's very frightening for themto have that conversation, the
fear of losing that.
And that's why I say severalsmall conversations, you know so
(11:24):
it doesn't go.
So maybe they shut down thefirst time, come back around to
the conversation in two weeks ornext month.
I wouldn't ever recommend havingthat conversation while you're
in the car with them, right?
It's a conversation when you'renot, you know, when driving
isn't even on the table.
Just a conversation here, justa natural conversation that
(11:46):
you're having, human to human,respecting that one day we're
going to be them.
How do I want my kid talking tome?
How do I want my child to cometo me with?
I think a lot of this is goingto make sense to us when we
become them.
Christina Smith (12:04):
Yeah, too bad, it'll be too old to help them
through it.
When I think about it, becauseI did work in some retirement
homes and I've, you know,caretaked people who are older,
and that was like the biggestthing for them was like moving
in meant leaving their cars,because the place that I was at
(12:28):
did not have their cars.
You know the parents, the kidscould be convincing them that,
oh, but you have everything youneed here, you can order
anything here, but it still washard because it's like giving up
control of your own life, andso I really love this way of
(12:48):
like you're even bonding abetter relationship with them.
Right, like this is aboutreally understanding your
parents, where maybe a lot of usdidn't spend a lot of time
really understanding what ourparents liked about their life,
what they don't like about theirlife, what they find too hard
now, and instead of like I knowwhen my husband talks to his
(13:10):
parents, it's just about theirhealth problems like, oh, this
is the problem, this is what thedoctor said, and blah, blah,
blah.
Instead of like.
But what does that mean for thequality of living that you have?
Right, how can I help youincrease the quality of your
life while you're still here,and I think that this one big
(13:30):
one that we were talking aboutearlier is the thing that hits
me is like when you, when wewant them to be around, oh, we
want them to be around until ourkids are getting married and go
to the wedding and everything,but that may not be their goal,
right?
That may not be their goal.
(13:51):
Their goal might be I want tolive as wild as I can for the
next five years rather than youknow, trying just to be healthy
for the next 25.
And I think that that's a realhard conversation rather than
well, my opinion's right,because you live longer.
Mary Remmes (14:11):
You know it's so interesting.
I'm glad that you brought thatup because it's so important to
think about.
What am I making theirdecisions mean about me?
You know you said that youbrought it up.
Christina Smith (14:24):
As far as we're telling ourselves about it?
Mary Remmes (14:26):
Yes, because it's not that they don't want to be
around for their grandchildren'swedding.
It's that how they live theirlife is so important to them,
and being around for thegrandparent or the grandchild's
wedding might not be at the topof their list, it doesn't mean
that they don't want to be there.
(14:47):
It means that they want tostructure their life in a way.
They want to live their lifeRight.
And one of the things that Ithink it's so important because
we all have a story about whoand how our parents are and
everything that they do and say.
Our brain wants to use evidenceto prove our story is correct.
(15:07):
So if I think, oh, my dad isjust always so obstinate and I
attempt to have a conversationwith him about driving and he
disagrees or he shuts down, I go.
Well, there you go.
My dad's just obstinate, rightas opposed to.
This is a hard conversation.
This is a hard time in his lifebecause he feels like his world
(15:29):
is getting smaller.
Maybe it's not obstinate, it isgiving up.
It's just him processing whathe's giving up.
Yeah, yeah.
So to feel that there's a lotthat we give up yeah, there is a
lot that we give up and to beable to build on that
relationship with them.
Because I think we always I'mgoing to assume that most of us
(15:51):
want to create connection withour elderly parents and we
inadvertently so many times putup walls because we're over here
thinking I've got, I've got toparent my parent right, I've got
to make decisions for them tokeep them safe, and they're over
(16:11):
there thinking they're tryingto take control of my life.
Christina Smith (16:16):
So there's your opposite from when we were
children, right?
I mean, that's exactly theconversation we had with them,
only backwards, like I'm tryingto live my life as a teenager
and you're trying to keep medown and make all these
decisions for me, and that's notfair.
I'm an adult, right?
And now we're having those sametypes of conversations and I
(16:37):
really love this part about likeunderstanding that it's a story
that we're telling ourselvesabout, about how they're showing
up and and, of course, the egoalways makes it about us, right.
Like oh, they don't care aboutme.
If they don't, if they don'teat well every day and exercise
and do all the things that Ithink they should be doing, they
(17:00):
must not care about me.
And I think that there is thisbig part that we have to
remember of like freedom ofchoice, them being able to
decide hey, if I want to eatcheeseburgers every day, and
that's the quality of life thatI want to have, then that's the
quality of life I should be ableto have.
Right, maybe there's anegotiation in there, right for
(17:21):
health issues.
But if that's really what theywant, then that's their choice.
And I think that we forget thatas they start to become unable
to do some things, we startthinking like oh well, then
somebody has to take over theirlife so that they can do these
things as long as possible.
But their choice might be I'drather not live forever and have
(17:43):
a boring life of.
You know, salads and vegetables, right?
Mary Remmes (17:49):
Yeah, and so there has to be a big respect there.
I think that it's advantageousif we can get ourselves to that
point of being respectful ofwhat they want, even when we
disagree with it, or I wouldeven say, especially when we
disagree with it, because adultsget to make bad choices every
(18:12):
day and we watch people make badchoices every day, and I think
it's helpful in this time alsoto believe, like to remember in
this space, that everybody'sreally doing their best, and
sometimes the best isn't verygood, and that goes for us too,
(18:32):
right?
Christina Smith (18:34):
We always do our best.
Mary Remmes (18:35):
Sometimes our best isn't very good, but it's still
our best in that moment andallowing that to be enough is
really important, especially aswe partner in the care for aging
parents, because we can go downthe path of I should be doing
more, this person's doing less,I should.
You know, my life doesn't looklike theirs.
(18:56):
It's just so many, so muchdrama that we can create for
ourselves and if we can have thecompassion for ourselves and
knowing that I'm doing my bestand usually that's pretty good
Sometimes it's not very good andI love all of me through it
this is a completely differentpath that we would think of what
we had talked about, but Ithink that it plays into no but
(19:17):
I love this because right now Ihave a client who she lives with
her fiance's mother.
Christina Smith (19:28):
They both do because they were caretaking her
, but they wanna move away fromthat house and she's like trying
to tell all of the siblings heylook, there's things going on,
we need to be aware, blah, blah,and they're all like we're
gonna deal with it when it comes.
you know, Like, and so, like, myadvice to her was like, well,
(19:49):
what are the things that you canactually do?
Right, what is that you canactually control?
Cause you can't control thiswoman, you can't control the
siblings, what is it that youcan control?
And once you realize, like,well, hold on, like that is my
best, me trying to talk to theirsiblings is the best, like
(20:09):
that's all I'm reallyresponsible for.
And I think that you know wecan tell ourselves a story
because of that discomfort, oflike thinking of them hurting
themselves or even passing, thatwe want to control everything.
And if they would just, youknow, the whole world if the
world would just behave the waythat I wanted it to.
Mary Remmes (20:33):
We would be so much favor.
We know that everybody shoulddo we do, we do.
Sometimes we have a hard timekeeping our own lives on track,
but we know what everybody elseshould do.
Christina Smith (20:45):
Yeah, yeah.
So then we can definitely tellourselves stories about
ourselves like I'm not doingenough, I'm not, but we have to
also remember that we have torelease control of.
That is what I'm hearing is thatrelease some of that control,
because you aren't their parents, you can't ground them and put
them in their room, right, youcan't take away their phone and
(21:05):
call it a day.
And so I love this about havingall these teeny, tiny, small
conversations, like keeping itas, like this ongoing thing.
It's so important because evenwhen people say I'm going to go
have this hard conversation andI'm like I hope you don't think
you're going to have the end allbe all answer at the end of it
because most hard conversationsdo not go that way there's a lot
(21:28):
of like okay, I heard you, youheard me.
Now we have to go away andprocess a little bit and really
think about what the best way is.
Maybe we can have anotherconversation in two weeks, and
that takes the pressure offright Of us having to get
offensive, them gettingdefensive.
We're just talking.
That's all we're doing isasking questions and talking,
(21:49):
which is so important, and letsus just let go of that control.
Mary Remmes (21:55):
It does.
It does you know?
I, yeah, it's.
I'm glad that you you talkedabout, you know, having that
hard conversation and we kind oftouched on that earlier that we
go in we all have an agenda andbeing able to set our agenda
aside to listen to what theother person is really thinking
(22:16):
and feeling.
Most of us are coming withaging parents.
Most of us are coming into thismotivated by fear Fear of what's
gonna happen if or fear thatthey're gonna fall, or fear that
you know something bad is goingto happen, and we tend to make
our decisions then based on fear, which I have never made a good
(22:39):
decision because fueled by fear.
Christina Smith (22:42):
No, no, especially at panicked fear,
right when you're in that state.
Mary Remmes (22:46):
Yeah, so you know that awareness that you're
talking about, thatself-awareness of you know,
realizing, stepping back andsaying, all right, let's slow
this down, and it's so.
That's one of the things that'skind of ironic.
We feel like it's all anemergency because they're old,
they don't have much time leftright.
Their time is limited, whichputs a tremendous amount of
(23:07):
pressure on us, thinking that wehave to make the right decision
, or it limits our ability to.
What we really need to do isslow everything down and take a
step back and say, okay, what'sreally happening here, what are
the facts of the situation, andthen sort out those facts from
(23:30):
the story that we're tellingourselves about mom or dad.
Christina Smith (23:35):
Which is the worst case scenario.
That's hard to do yeah, yeah.
Mary Remmes (23:39):
Our brains immediately go to the worst case
scenario.
Christina Smith (23:42):
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Somebody's going to knock ontheir door and take advantage of
them.
Somebody is going to, yeah,like, or they, like you said
they're going to fall, they'regoing to get in an accident.
We think it's going to happenright now.
And that panic state makes ussay it has to happen right now,
and I've said this to my clientsso much whenever you're in that
state of it has to happen rightnow.
If it's not an immediate safetyconcern, like as long as
(24:06):
they're not out drinking anddriving right now and wobbling
all over the road like then, wejust need to take a breath and
regroup before we get there.
So it's interesting that theseconversations are the same, no
matter how you know.
Because couldn't we use thesetips for any conversation that
we're having?
(24:27):
Right, even if it's like a bigthing, like I think I might want
to divorce my husband orsomething, well, we don't start
with, like, the divorceconversation.
We start with lots of littleconversations, right, but that's
kind of what we're doing to ourolder parents when we are, when
we are like, oh, you need tostop driving today, you need to,
(24:48):
we need to find you a homeright now to go move to or
whatever.
Those are big decisions andsome of these people you know
they've been driving for 60years, they've been living in
the same house maybe for 40years.
That's a lot of change, that'snot.
And as we get older I don'tknow, at least for me change
takes me a little longer than itused to take right, like in my
(25:11):
teenage years.
I could take off and go to thebeach, but now it's like I got a
plan to make sure I have allthe things and the reservations
you know one thing that Isometimes think about, I wonder,
christina, is is our parents'generation, the last generation,
why this driving thing is goingto be such a big deal?
Mary Remmes (25:29):
Because you and I and it's definitely not going to
be an issue for our kids, forus we're like the first
generation that has utilizedUber, lyft, all those things.
So that's going to carry usfurther into our senior years
utilizing those services.
So I wonder if another twogenerations this driving
(25:53):
conversation it's going to fallto the bottom of issues that
families have Kind of supercurious about that.
I love studying sociology and,you know, going out 30,000 feet
in a city I don't know what it'sgoing to be like in 50 years.
Christina Smith (26:06):
I'm curious too , because as I get older, I mean
even now I don't like driving.
I wish I had a driver, right.
So I mean, as I get older, Imay not have that issue so much
either, because I'll be like Idon't like driving at night
either.
You're right, I should get acab or an Uber or Lyft or
something, and that would befine and you can still get
around to wherever you want.
(26:27):
It's really just those longerdrives that you're really
missing, and a lot of olderpeople don't drive far right,
Like they don't.
They just go around town, soit's really not that big of a
deal.
If they're going on a biggertrip, they're probably going
with someone else.
And so that might make it easier.
Yeah, yeah, that is a question,but we'll always have that
(26:49):
question of like when is it timeto I hate to say like shorten,
but like when is it time tobring down not their rights, but
like to really have theseconversations of being like,
well, you know, this is a reallybig house, mom Like do you
really want to be here forever?
(27:10):
You spend all your time takingcare of it and it seems like a
lot, you know.
And so I love these, havingthese small conversations and we
can just further it right, andin these small conversations,
would you suggest sharing someof what we feel as well, like
some of our concerns, maybe notat a, not at a you have to move
(27:33):
right now, kind of thing.
But, mom, I do have someconcerns about you know how you
take care of this, or you knowthat it's those stairs are too
much for you, or whatever it is.
Mary Remmes (27:45):
It's always an opportunity to do that for the
purpose of creating a connectionwith them, and I think that I'm
the advocate for the parent inthat.
Always defer, I mean I can have.
I can have and share my, myfears and my concerns, but what
(28:07):
they want always takes precedent.
Christina Smith (28:11):
And that's where my work is, like I
mentioned before, with doing myown work with coming to terms
with.
Mary Remmes (28:17):
I don't like their decision, but I'll respect their
decision.
Now, if we're in a situationwhere somebody's got moderate
cognitive decline and you knowand somebody is in danger of
this say there's a spouse orsomething, that's a whole other
conversation, but a parent whois just contiguing in their
meals yeah, yeah.
And wanting to stay in theirhome, even if it means they
(28:39):
never see anybody.
They don't interact with people.
They interact with people.
The grass is growing Like crazy.
I Think it's our job to allowthem to be that way as long as
possible.
I think it's insertingOurselves and inserting I guess
(29:00):
forcing our will on them Alwaysthe last resort, like it's
nothing else.
I think it's always the lastresort because I think you asked
when do you think?
Never, if possible, but never?
If possible, the absolute lastpossible minute.
Christina Smith (29:18):
Hmm, it's hard and I think about that because
my, my grandfather was a littlebit Abusive to my grandmother
and they were like a real sizedifference, so it became a lot
and so she ended up putting himin a home where he was also
abusive but at least there waslike orderly, isn't what?
Not to take care of that.
But like if my, if my motherwould have gone in and been like
(29:42):
, oh, this is unacceptable, youneed to move in a home, he never
would have dug that at all.
But but I Guess I guess, yeah,this is so interesting because
this is really about allowingsomebody else to live, even if
it makes you uncomfortable,right, even if it makes you
(30:02):
uncomfortable that they're intheir own home alone or driving.
This is really about managingour discomfort around it and
Recognizing that they are stilltheir own human and can still,
you know, make their own choices.
Now, what happens when they arein a cognitive decline?
(30:22):
Like what if they're living athome and they're constantly
forgetting to turn the stove offor you know something?
Dangerous things are happening.
How do we, how does that changeat all?
Mary Remmes (30:36):
The way that we manage that.
You can change things and Ithink that the most important
thing In that situation is to becertain that you've got all of
your legal ducks in a row andthat you've got, because you
know there's different levels oflegalities, like the durable
power of attorney for medicaldecisions, for financial
(30:56):
decisions, etc.
And this is the great area thatadult children live in for a
very long time and it's veryuncomfortable for us.
You can I mean you can, you canforce somebody into a secure
living environment, but it'sjust you just want to avoid that
(31:19):
at all costs.
So in this situation wheresomebody is becoming Forgetful,
they're leaving the stove on.
I'd probably disconnect thestove.
I mean, there's a lot of thingsthat we can do to create a safe
environment.
Christina Smith (31:32):
Before we actually yeah we have to play
the part of I'm forcing you sothe least amount of intrusion
that we can do.
Yes, I'm saying and there areorganizations.
Mary Remmes (31:46):
There's companies out there that can help you.
Go in.
They can.
They can go in and do anassessment in the home and Make
a recommendation for you all thethings that you can do to
create a safe environment.
We're very good.
We live in a time and a day andage where we can have Uber eats
deliver food most places well,not some real, real world places
, no but you can have groceriesdelivered.
(32:08):
I mean, there's a lot of thingsthat we have in place now that
make Somebody being alone intheir own, even when they've got
some mild cognitive impairment,it still makes it possible.
Hmm, even, you know, havingsomebody go out and check on
them, you know, once a day, or.
There's a lot of things that wecan put in place to, like you
(32:30):
said, create bumpers to keepthem in the home.
Yeah, they want to be there.
Christina Smith (32:36):
Yeah, and that's a really beautiful way of
doing it right.
And then it may come for themthat, like over time, there's so
many bumpers that it just wouldbe more comfortable living in
another place than being, youknow, at home, which is fine,
you know, but again that becomestheir choice.
What a lovely conversation.
(32:57):
I don't think I've ever evenwhen I worked in the retirement
homes like I've never had thesetypes of conversations to really
Understand.
Usually, when, by the timethey've come to our retirement
home or our care home, it wasalready decided whether or not
they enjoyed it, and you couldtell the ones who enjoyed it and
(33:19):
the ones who did not.
And I mean, even even there Idon't know if there's studies on
this, but the more that theyhated having to move out of
their home and and goingsomewhere else, it seems like
the shorter their lifespan wasanyway, because they were so
angry about it.
And there was plenty of timeswhere there was one older man
(33:41):
who would Steal the limo fromout front and like drive home,
and we'd have to like go findhim again because he didn't have
his car anymore or he wanted togo home to his car and, and so
he would always have to go tohis house to find him because he
would be outside going.
Why don't my keys fit anymore,you know?
And so so, allowing them tolive with their own dignity as
(34:07):
how they want to, as long asthey can, as long as they're
being safe ish, because we'realways gonna have ideas.
Right, just like when we haveteenage kids, we're gonna have
ideas of what safe is andthey're gonna have ideas what
safe is, and they rarely do thetwo actually meet, and so this
(34:27):
has been a really lovelyconversation.
What I learned about today wasto start earlier than you think.
You Don't start before youthink.
You need to have theconversation right now so that
you can really get to know yourparents and here you know what
it is that they want and so thatyou can really get to know them
a little bit, like what is itthat you like about your life
(34:49):
and what is it that you don'tlike about how hard or the
hardness of getting old and whatyou know.
What can I help you with?
Rather than?
This needs to change right now,because I deem it's not safe,
which is not the best way to goFor somebody who's had like
sovereignty over their ownchoices for 70, 80 years.
(35:09):
It can be really challenging,so start these conversations as
soon as possible.
Lots of questions, lots oflistening and yeah, what a
lovely way to move forward andthen let control.
Let control go and realize thatthat's not really your job.
Mary Remmes (35:29):
Yeah, the only thing that you can control is
how do you show up in theconversation with them.
And I would add Please giveyourself so much grace and so
much.
Just be exquisitely kind toyourself, because this is hard
stuff, me and you.
You're not going to get itright all the time, that's okay.
(35:51):
We just have to be so kind toourselves.
I think it's in the being kindto ourselves that we have a
greater capacity to extend thatcompassion and kindness to the
other humans in our world and weforget that, and then we also
take on less guilt about like Icouldn't control that.
Christina Smith (36:08):
Well, no, you can't control that right.
Like that's not, that's beyondyour control.
And I love because it's what Ialways say to my clients the
only thing that you can controlis the way that you show up,
that's it.
You can't control how otherpeople are going to behave or
other things are going to happen, but you always can control the
way that you show up.
And so getting to thoseconversations early, I know for
(36:29):
me would be so much better thangetting into that panic spot of
like, oh, now we're worriedabout this risk, the safety risk
or whatever.
What a lovely conversation.
Thank you, Mary.
I know that you have a littlegifty gift for us.
You want to tell us about that.
Mary Remmes (36:47):
I do.
I have a little.
It's a.
It's a little training that Iput together that I've done for
years, and it's called how tofeel better, no matter how crazy
your situation feels.
And it's just a.
It's a.
It's a 20 minute video with aworksheet that you work through
and you come to the video with,whatever your situation is.
It can involve aging parents,it can involve anything a
(37:08):
teenage daughter, a husband,anything.
I show you how to break it downand get clarity around what's
really happening, how you'recurrently thinking about it and
how you want to think about it,moving forward so that you feel
at least a little bit betterabout whatever's happening.
And that, um, yeah, thatthat'll be available on our
(37:28):
website.
Christina Smith (37:30):
Yeah, I'll put it right, the link right below,
so you can go click it and clickon that.
That sounds really lovelybecause we all need that's a way
that we can start pooling ourstories out like what's real
data versus what are we makingup around it, because we've seen
so many scary stories.
Mary Remmes (37:51):
Yes, we're all good storytellers.
Christina Smith (37:54):
We are excellent storytellers.
Often we don't even know we'retelling stories.
We take it as truth and andthat's where our struggles can
often lie.
Thank you so much for beinghere today and thank you,
shifters for tuning in yeah.
I saw you when I was talkingabout it, and thank you,
shifters, for tuning in too, andI hope that this was helpful,
(38:16):
especially if you're havingstruggles with, I mean, this.
This conversation is reallyhelpful, not just with aging
parents, but basically anyone,because it like shows us that we
don't really have control overother people.
But having these smallconversations and trying to
understand that other person'spoint of view first is going to
be a lot more helpful than justpushing forward with what we
(38:40):
think and what we know andcontrolling the situation.
So lovely.
Thank you so much again andy'all have a great day.
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