November 28, 2024 • 46 mins
Facing the complexities of divorce can feel overwhelming, especially in midlife. Join us on the Inviting Shift podcast as we explore the life-altering journey of separation and self-discovery with our inspiring guests, Michelle and Danielle. As they recount their personal experiences, we promise you'll gain invaluable insights into the emotional upheaval that follows a marriage's end and the profound journey of redefining one's identity. With Michelle adjusting to living alone for the first time and Danielle navigating the intricacies of divorce with children, our conversation offers a blend of personal stories and expert advice that promises to resonate deeply with anyone facing similar challenges.
OUR GUESTS
Dr. Danielle Angela is a profit strategist, money coach, chiropractor, hypnotherapist and neurosomatic release practitioner. Danielle started her healthcare career while in high school and has over 20 years of experience in the health and wellness industry. Since 2015, Dr. Danielle has offered life and business coaching for female health and wellness entrepreneurs. Danielle has helped 1000s of business owners achieve greater work-life balance and increased profitability in their businesses. Today, Danielle is best known for helping service providers overcome their fears about money, charge their worth, and build highly profitable freedom-based businesses utilizing both business strategies and somatic healing modalities. As the host of her own podcast, Dr. Danielle has produced over 300 podcast episodes in the last 8 years and is a sought-after speaker. In 2022, Danielle’s virtual practice officially crossed the multiple 7-figure mark in revenue, putting her in the top 3% of female entrepreneurs worldwide. Danielle says her greatest achievement, though, is raising her 3 daughters as a single mom.
Connect with Danielle: Website | Facebook | Instagram
Michelle Haslam is a middle-aged, newly single mum who is perimenopausal and overweight. She's slowly clawing her way to a happier, easier, more adventurous life.
Connect with Michelle: TikTok | YouTube
HOST:
Christina Smith is a life coach specializing in confidence and self-love in midlife.
CONNECT with Inviting Shift & Christina:
Instagram | Facebook | Email me
FREE GIFT: The Confidence Tool Kit is here to help you walk into the second half like a queen (because you are one already). Get it here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to the Inviting Shift podcast.
I am here today.
We're going to talk aboutsomething that's becoming it's
hard to say the word popular,isn't it?
But uh, happens more is divorceand midlife.
Um, and I'm here with tworeally lovely ladies, michelle
and Danielle, to talk about whatthat's like and what it's like
(00:22):
to be single in midlife.
And I know that divorce wasprobably one of the hardest
things I ever went through.
I mean doesn't mean that itwasn't completely worth it, but
it was definitely one of thehardest things that I had gone
through, and I I personally wasvery angry for about five years.
(00:42):
I went through a five-yearperiod of being really angry
until one day I just got tiredof being angry.
But I'd love to.
I'm looking forward to hearingMichelle and Danielle's stories.
So, without any further ado,michelle, thank you for being on
the show.
Can you tell us a little bitabout yourself and your
experiences?
Bit?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
about yourself and your experiences.
Sure, so I'm Michelle.
I'm a TikToker, a contentcreator on TikTok, and, yeah,
I'm recently separated from myhusband and have two children
aged six and nine, and I've onlybeen living alone since January
(01:24):
of this year, so it's inJanuary 2024.
So it's all very fresh and newfor me, but it's the right path,
beautiful.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
And Danielle, welcome .
Hi, thanks so much for havingme.
I am Danielle Angela.
I have been divorced twice.
The first divorce was I don'twant to sound flippant, but it
was easy peasy no childreninvolved, and we agreed on how
to split everything and win ourseparate ways.
The second divorce and honestlythe second marriage was much
(01:59):
more challenging and involvedthree children plus a stepchild
who is, um my former husband'soldest child.
She's almost 22.
And my, my three daughters thatI birthed were 11, eight and
four at the time of ourseparation.
They're now 13, 10 and six.
Um, it's, it's been a ride,it's.
(02:22):
It's, christina, as you saidit's.
It was like the hardest thingthat you've gone through, for
sure, and also a hundred percentnecessary and worth it.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Yeah, I agree, it was for me too challenging because
I only had the one child, but Imean any child.
It means that, like you'reconnected to this person like
forever.
It feels like I mean, my son isnow going to be 22.
So I don't have to engage thatoften with my ex-husband.
Um, and it was really, reallychallenging and we didn't even
(03:00):
have like financial stuff toseparate because there was like
nothing really to separateamongst us.
It really had to do with takingcare of the child and the fact
that, like I was, I was moreangry at myself because I kept
going back, because I wanted tofix it for my son, I wanted to
(03:22):
make it for my son, I wanted tomake it okay for him.
Like I was like, ah, surely youcan just get by.
Um, when I was talking toMichelle before we actually
started recording about, likethere's a lot of marriages that
happen after children um,graduate or leave the home and
then people decide to getdivorced.
But what I realized is thosekids are actually watching their
(03:47):
parents in a very dysfunctionalrelationship for so long.
And when I looked down at mythree or four-year-old child, I
was like, do I want him to thinkthat the way that we're
interacting is okay or the waythat I'm being treated is the
(04:09):
way that I want him to treat afuture partner.
And with that I could not staybecause I was like, absolutely
not Like I would want mychildren to have boundaries
around this stuff and be like,nope, not going to be treated
that way.
So I'm curious what came up fory'all, because I was just angry
(04:29):
for a really long time, areally long time.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
I just remember being so angry for so many years and
my friends thinking I was a manhater and I was like I don't
hate all men, I get that, yeah,so with me, I think we were
probably living as roommates fora very, very long time.
I genuinely think, you know,when people say let's have kids,
it will fix the marriage, Iactually think the opposite is
often true, in that having kidsis such a challenge that it can
(05:00):
completely change yourrelationship with your husband
and um, and that was, I think,probably the case for us.
We became parents and roommatesand that was about it, and and
we, we, you know, probablydidn't make enough time to work
on each other and and therelationship and you know, date,
(05:21):
date nights were so infrequentI could probably count them on
one or two hands since thechildren were born and, and you
know it's, it was.
We didn't work on each otherand by the end, it just wasn't a
functional relationship in theslightest.
And we, we, we made each otherunhappy, very unhappy, and I
(05:43):
would.
When I'm unhappy, my response isalways to disappear in some way
, so I would go up to thebedroom and sort of escape from
life, and I wasn't living lifeat all really.
So when I moved into my ownplace, which is, like I said,
very, very recent.
It's sort of been this crazydiscovery of a brand new life,
(06:05):
of oh okay.
So, for example, this weekend Idon't have the children.
Um, what do I do with my time?
And at first I had absolutelyno clue what to do with my time
and I would sit there and donothing, so and go.
Well, I don't know who I amanymore.
So it's been a journey howabout for you?
Speaker 3 (06:25):
I relate so much with both of both of you and what
you've shared so far.
For me, um, I think the themost surprising challenge for me
through, um, the last two yearsafter having ended my second
marriage has been a lot of grief, a lot, a lot of grief, and I I
(06:54):
didn't how can I put this, likein a respectful way?
Um, the grief was not in regardto the end of the marriage or
the loss of my former partner,because it was not a healthy
relationship, and I have felt,from the moment I made the
(07:15):
decision to end that marriage,so much relief and I've been
able to just feel the calm thatI felt like I'd never had before
.
The thing for me that's reallycome to the surface is the grief
around not having a nuclearfamily, which is also really
(07:37):
under the surface, about nothaving the nuclear family when I
was a child either, and so,like, as I've grieved not having
a nuclear family or not feelinglike I have the traditional
nuclear family, I've been ableto realize like, oh, actually
I've been just kind of stuffingdown how I felt about my
(07:57):
childhood for all of these yearsand not addressing a lot of
things that I yeah, I had justbeen basically ignoring and
thinking like, well, that's inthe past, I'm not going to think
about that anymore, and feelinglike I had moved on or gotten
past it.
But what I, what I've reallybecome aware of through
(08:19):
processing all of that, is a lotof the things from the past.
Through my childhood were stilldictating the decisions that I
was making, especially in regardto the men that I chose to be
in relationship with.
So, gosh, that's been hard,painful, time consuming, um,
distracting from other things,you know, distracting from um,
(08:43):
like where I thought I would bein my career right now, where I
thought I would be in mybusiness right now.
Um, instead, I've taken a longpause and just given myself a
lot of space to work, work onmyself.
I had to do that.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
I had to take the long pause as well.
So essentially from about Marchto the beginning of September,
I sort of did nothing, and itwas it's like you need to take
that time yeah if you've got theopportunity to and I you know,
and it may be that, um, womenwho are employed don't
(09:19):
necessarily get that time butwhen you're self-employed you
have a little bit more controlover your own schedule a little
bit.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
But yeah, I had to do exactly the same thing
(10:03):
no-transcript, so much energy,which I think is why I was so
angry.
And I know, underneath an angerthere was grief, there was
sadness, there was fear, therewas shame, um, all of those
things.
And so, even though I call itanger, I it was like easy for me
(10:24):
back then because I could pointto all the things that he had
done wrong that made ourmarriage so hard.
And yet, you know, when I wastired of being angry and I went
to therapy, I was like, oh, andhere's all the things I did to
contribute to that Like, eventhough they may not have been
(10:45):
like in our vows, I sure hadmade it really easy for him to
be petty and hurtful and, um, doother things, because I was
also not showing up in my bestlight either.
So I, it took me many years toactually own that part, um, and
it took a therapist.
(11:06):
And, and the reason I went tothe therapist was, um, because I
had been taking my son totherapy, because his dad decided
to move across the country andsuddenly my child's grades like
just sunk.
Um, he went from like an Astudent to like a D student
overnight.
And so, um, I took him thereand he went and he got a lot of
(11:28):
benefit.
And then one day she was like,christina, have you been to a
counselor?
And I was like, oh no, I should.
Yeah, I know, I get it.
Ha ha, you know.
And then the next time sheasked again, did you make an
appointment?
And I was like, oh no, I reallyshould.
And she looked at me and shesaid, christina, he's going to
be okay when you're okay.
(11:50):
I don't know if I ever wouldhave known that if it wasn't for
the divorce.
Like that I am to what Daniellewas saying Like I didn't realize
how much unhealed stuff I hadthat I was bringing into my
marriage.
And I just did a life reviewlast year and I went through my
twenties and I was like I wasthe red flag collector.
(12:10):
It wasn't my first husband, itwas every man that I dated
before that too.
Like they were all the sameversion, like a different
version of the same person, andI'm sure that that had a lot to
do with you know my family andthe way that I was raised.
So for me it was a lot oftherapy, helped me start getting
(12:33):
through that.
And that was even after I waswith the man I'm married to now,
which is very lovely and doesnot have the same qualities.
I was very, very particular thesecond time around and I was
like because what I learned frommy first marriage was, if I'm
(12:53):
with somebody and they're notcontributing or benefiting my
life in some way, I would ratherbe alone, because I can do it
better on my own than I canbeing with somebody who I also
have to caretake or um takesmore energy from me than offers
me.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Yeah, absolutely For sure.
Yes, One of the hardest thingsfor me in the last two years has
been recognizing how entangled,emotionally enmeshed I was with
my children and how much peoplepleasing I was doing.
I was, you know, like bendingover backwards to do whatever I
(13:32):
could to make sure that theywere happy.
But really, under the surface,it was like I'm afraid that
they're not going to be happywith me and and I had such
little bandwidth for any kind ofdiscourse with them.
Um, or, you know, just likeconsequences for behavior
(13:54):
choices that were not ideal, wedidn't have any rules there.
There were no like clearexpectations.
Um, the one thing that theirfather and I had always told
them was to always be honest.
But there was so muchdishonesty under the surface and
they didn't know that.
But, um, I think you knowwhether we know something
(14:15):
because someone has spoken itout loud or not is one thing,
but, like, our bodies just sensethat tension that happens and
um sense that tension thathappens and um, it's.
It's taken a lot for me to sortof redirect them.
Like um, I was in a coachingprogram last year and we talked
a lot about boundaries and theyasked me what are your
(14:36):
boundaries with your kids, and Iwas like I have no idea, I have
no idea.
And then I started to thinkabout what are some things that
happen in the home when my kidsare here that I don't like, and
so one really prominent examplefor me is that my children used
to just walk into my room andtake my stuff take my
(14:59):
hairbrushes or my hairdryer, ora pillow or blanket, whatever
they, whatever they wanted.
It was like they just walked in, took it and then I would be
going to look for the thing andI'm like, where's my hairbrush?
And find it in one of theirbedrooms.
And so I created a rule or aboundary, um, and thankfully
(15:19):
this worked pretty quickly,because I don't like doing it.
It's still uncomfortable for me,but I said you can no longer
walk into someone else's room,especially now that you're
getting older.
You can't do this to me, youcan't do it to each other.
You have to ask for permissionbefore you enter the room.
You have to ask for permissionbefore you take someone's
belongings.
And if you don't do it, if youwalk into my room or someone
(15:41):
else's bedroom withoutpermission, the.
And if you don't do it, if youwalk into my room or someone
else's bedroom withoutpermission, the door of your own
room comes off.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
For two weeks I wouldn't even know how to take a
door off, to be honest, butthat's really impressive.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
Yeah, I had help with that.
I had to do it, I think, threetimes and they learned very
quickly.
My youngest she's only six,she's actually the best at
honoring that boundary.
It might just also be becauseshe comes into my room the most,
because she wants to talk withme or be near me, because she's
still small.
But, um, she will be in my roomwith me.
(16:21):
She will leave the room to goget a snack and then come back
and before she steps through thedoor, the doorway, she says can
I come back in?
Yes, thank you for asking.
So just, you know those kindsof little things.
They seem little, but I, myhope is that by creating
boundaries with my kids likethat, now that they are, that's
(16:44):
being modeled for them and thatthey're able to to do that
because it to do that forthemselves, because I wasn't
able to do that until I was 43years old.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Yeah, and then you know that that also changes the
type of partner that you are.
Uh, you are going to marry orbe with.
Right Is like, because if theystart, you know, after your
model, they start holdingboundaries and the other person
doesn't respect those boundaries, then it's like oh, this is not
a person for me.
(17:16):
So it's like you're teachingthem self care in that way,
which is why I think you know wetalk about like why are so many
women, you know, seekingdivorce?
Well, one, because today theycan, or 50 years ago it made it
really really challenging, um,and two, it's like I think we're
(17:36):
just not as willing to put upwith the bullshit.
Um, we were talking about beforethis that like the bar used to
be the bullshit we were talkingabout before this, that like the
bar used to be well, he doesn'tbeat you.
And it's like oh so, this isthe benchmark.
Like, if I'm not being abused,then I should stay in a
relationship.
That's miserable.
Yeah, for the kids is used tobe the thought and it was like
(17:58):
but now the kids are learning tobe in dysfunctional
relationships that are nothealthy and they are hurtful.
And you know, would I want mychild to stay in that?
Absolutely not Like I want themto take care of themselves.
So what a beautiful way of likestarting to instill boundaries
and showing them.
You know these.
This is how relationships even,you know, doesn't even have to
(18:22):
be a partner, but justrelationships amongst friends
and family like we're allowed tohave boundaries, we're allowed
to say no, that doesn't work forme, or walk away if something
is hurtful.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
It's funny because I've definitely learned to
remove the people from my lifethat don't add anything to it
and to have more of the peoplein my life that do add things to
it, and that really does make adifference to the quality of
life that you have, and it'swhen you're living with someone
it's impossible.
You cannot just remove them.
You know, I, we, we co-parentequally, um, so I, I and I,
(18:59):
because our children are soyoung, we do it, we sort of swap
houses quite often, so I haveto see him quite often.
We've remained amicable, whichI am forever thankful for, but
it does mean having to see eachother all the time, and so you
kind of have to still deal withthat person, but then you can
walk away again and that's.
(19:20):
I love that bit.
It's not that I mind beingaround him, but it's, you know,
it's nice to be able to comeback to my own space and know
that he has no control here andit's all all up to me and and
the boundary thing.
And so I was always the softone of the relationship when it
came to the kids.
(19:41):
So I've had to step up a bit, abit like you, danielle, and
I've had to become someone who'sa little bit stricter than I
would normally like to be,because there's no one else to
do that in this household.
So, you know, when it comes tothings like screen time, the
kids, if they could, they'd beon it from the moment they woke
up to the moment they go to bedwith, you know, some snacks.
(20:03):
If they could have that, thatwould be their perfect day.
Just if I fed them snacks as asthey were on screens and.
But obviously that's not goodfor them in the slightest.
So, yeah, I have to install,instill the boundaries when it
comes to screen time, and theyknow that I mean it and I, you
know I will take those thingsaway from them if they don't.
(20:24):
Um, they don't listen to me, butthey always try and push the
boundary a little bit, sothere's always a little bit of a
well, but I'm just finishing upthis one thing and I'm and I
say, how long is it going totake?
Because if it's any more thantwo minutes, then I'm just going
to turn it off and they go.
Okay, I'm just finished, quickand um, but yeah, it, it can be
hard, because I want them tolike me.
You know they're my kids and ifit and you and I suppose the
(20:48):
one thing you have to deal withwhen you're a single mum is it's
just you.
There isn't someone else to comein and help with discipline or
boundary setting or anythinglike that.
It is just up to one person, um, and so I want my kids to like
me, but I also really need themto know that I'm their parent
(21:09):
way over them liking me.
So quite often they don't likeme very much because I'm having
to do things that they don'tlike, but it is the right thing
for them, but that can be quitehard sometimes to have you know
know they're six, six and nineyears old, so the nine year old
starting to go into that prepubescent age.
(21:30):
She's just gone into middleschool as well, so she's changed
school and, yeah, there's a lotof emotions going on, big
emotions we have to deal with.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
I really relate to that, michelle.
Yeah, the the like, the feelingof wanting my kids to like me,
but but recognizing that for thelongterm what's best is not
necessarily that they like meright now, but that I'm teaching
them how to be in the world.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Respect is more important than liking.
I think as a parent especiallyas you're like respect, because
I'm here to help you grow in theworld.
It's going to be uncomfortable,like that's just the way it is,
and and um, that's my job.
My job isn't to be your friend.
First you can go find friends.
(22:15):
I'm the only mom you're gonnahave.
I mean and I say that today, myson has four parents that love
him very much.
Um, he knows he's loved andadored and needs for nothing.
In fact, I just saw him thispast weekend for the first time
in two years, cause he's been inthe military, and, um, it was
(22:37):
just I was.
I was like don't you needsomething from here or something
from there?
You need underwear, you needsocks?
What do you need?
And he's like, mom, I don'tneed anything.
I'm a sergeant in the military,I can take care of all my.
And it's like success is sobittersweet you know what I mean
Cause I'm so happy that he'ssuccessfully independent in the
(23:00):
world and he can take care ofhimself, and I, I mean, I really
believe he's really smart andreally proud of him, and yet, at
the same time, it's like I'mnot needed.
You know, like that mommy, partof me is not needed.
And I just remember so manyyears ago, when it was just me
and him, and but I really likefor me and I guess I just want
(23:30):
to bring this up in case there'saudience members that are
listening and going ah, I reallywant this to work out.
I want to have this beautifulnuclear family that, uh,
danielle was talking about,cause that was me.
I was like, ah, you know,surely I can just make this work
, I can just shut my mouth andmove on with this marriage, and
(23:50):
I think that's what really madeit even worse.
Is that cause?
Then I would.
I was no longer getting mad athim.
I was getting mad at myself forputting up with all of the crap
that he I felt he was puttingme through all the boundaries,
that he was crossing all thevows, he was breaking all these
like ridiculous ways, liketaking all the money out of the
(24:14):
bank account, like all of thesethings that just infuriated me.
I started just being reallyangry with myself because I was
like, you know, fool me once,shame on you.
Fool me a hundred times, shameon me.
And, and I think that's whatreally tore up Like I love the
idea that, michelle, that youhave an amicable relationship.
(24:36):
Ours was not so amicable, I mean, today we could be in the same
room and we're going to be civil.
But there was, like, when hemoved across the country, his
new wife wanted to take our sonwith him and I was like well,
that's just crazy, I don't knowwhat you're thinking there.
That's not going to happen.
Like, maybe when he's older andhe did end up spending his high
(24:59):
school years with his dad Isaid once he's older, that's
fine, but he was like six at thetime and I was like I've been
his person, like I had custodyof him most of the time and so,
like I that's like all of thosethings started making the
relationship that we had moreand more challenging, to the
point where I had to get totexting with just logistics
(25:24):
because I could not have aconversation with my ex-husband
because it was my opinion isthat he's a proliferate liar and
I don't know why he's lying tome, and it's often about silly
stuff.
Like I don't know why he'smaking this stuff up and I would
get so angry about like why ishe telling me this?
Is this even true?
(25:45):
What's the purpose of it?
Like, and I would get so angrythat I had to get to a point
where it was like we just textedlogistics and that made our
relationship a lot better andthat was one of the boundaries I
put in.
It was like, no, I'm not goingto get on the phone call with
him, I'm not going to have longconversations.
If I see him at an event or asporting event or something, of
(26:07):
course I'll say hi, but like, ifit's not logistics, that's the
end of the conversation for me.
So I don't.
I I think that there's alldifferent ways of how divorce
can look.
I guess is the point that I'mcoming to.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
When I say we're amicable, we're amicable with as
little contact as we possiblycan have.
So you know the school admin.
It drives me insane that itnever stops.
So we have to constantlycommunicate, but it's via
WhatsApp.
We never phone each other butbecause we see each other, maybe
two or three times a week, wecan communicate at those times
(26:47):
with the bigger things that weneed to talk about in a bit more
depth.
But, yeah, it is still aslittle as possible.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Because you know there's a reason we're separated
.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
I think that's really important and that's been a
hard lesson for me to learn aswell.
My former husband and I, mychildren's father, he and I had
a lot of communication after ourseparation.
We had phone calls, textmessages, it was sometimes
(27:20):
FaceTime and at a certain pointI started to back away a bit.
I just didn't want to engagewith him so much and I could
feel that the reason that I wasdoing it, the reason that I was
still engage with him so muchand I could, I could feel that
the reason that I was doing it,the reason that I was still
communicating with him sofrequently, was because I felt
(27:43):
like if I didn't, he would getme in trouble.
So, um, so I was trying toappear like a good co-parent and
truthfully, in in my you knowmy very optimistic and hopeful
mind, I felt like, yeah, like wecan still, we can get divorced
(28:03):
and we can still do likeholidays together and birthdays
for the kids, right, idealscenario.
And you know that would likeshow some unity for our children
and it might feel good if, ifthe circumstances were different
.
Um, so for me, over the lasttwo years it's had, it's been
(28:25):
two years this month actually Um, I have.
I've kind of gone through like,different levels of like
removing myself from the backand forth and from the
communication.
Um, and then, like he kind of Ican kind of sense like he
adjusts to that, he gets okaywith it, and then things are as
they are for a bit and then,like, then I get to another
(28:47):
point where I'm like no, youdon't get to have this much
access to me anymore.
Like this, this no, I'm notavailable for a phone call about
our daughter's hygiene rightnow.
You can send me a text messageabout it if it's something
that's urgent or, you know,maybe we can schedule a time to
talk about it in another format.
But it's again like theboundaries.
(29:08):
You know, it's just been athing for me to learn where I
let people I had previously letpeople engage with me in ways
that I felt like I didn't wantthem to, but I just kept being
available for it.
I didn't walk from it.
I was like I don't like it whenyou do that.
And then the next time I don'tlike it when you do that, don't
(29:30):
do that to me.
And there were never anyconsequences.
So that that's been a very andactually just really this year.
That's something that I've.
I've really really come intolike an embodiment with, where
I'm like, oh, if someone crossesa boundary, that's my boundary,
it's my job then to uphold theconsequence it's not, it's not
(29:53):
for me to go like this personjust doesn't honor my boundaries
.
Consequence it's not, it's notfor me to go like.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
This person just doesn't honor my boundaries,
danielle, are you?
Are you dating?
Have you done any dating sinceyou divorced?
Speaker 3 (30:03):
um, not dating so much, but I do.
I do have a significant other.
Um, it's kind of an unusualscenario because when I asked,
like, did I date?
Well, like, yes, we dated eachother, um, but I didn't date
anyone else besides him.
We were friends before where webecame a couple, so it was kind
of easy and natural.
(30:24):
Yeah, and it's a much differentdynamic.
This is a whole different topicthat we could go down the
rabbit hole with.
But having been in arelationship with someone where
it was like there was a lot ofpassion in the beginning and
then not much substanceunderneath that, to now being in
(30:44):
a relationship with someonewhere we were friends first and
there was a lot of mutualrespect and trust built before
we engaged in a romanticrelationship, it feels very
different.
It feels at the risk ofsounding a bit cheesy it just
feels much more safe and secure,which is really something that
(31:07):
I had been wanting for a longtime, anyway, and was looking
for in all the wrong places.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Was looking for in all the wrong places.
I loved what you were sayingabout what you're learning about
yourself, because if there isone really huge benefit to
getting divorced, is that inthose five years of being angry
and the therapy after is when Ilearned a lot about myself.
(31:36):
What is it that I want, what isit that I need?
And I told you how, like someof my friends started thinking I
was a man hater and it wasbecause they were like, oh, no
man's ever going to be goodenough for you now.
And I was like, well, that'snot true, like I'd hate to
believe that that's true.
And so one night, probably aftera few too many glasses of wine,
(31:57):
I wrote down a list of likewhat I wanted out of a partner,
and not like six, two and brownhair, nothing like that, but
like that he was going to takemy child and like he was going
to father him properly, cause Ihad a stepfather and it seemed
like the stepchildren werealways in a war by the parents,
(32:19):
like the parents were pitting usagainst each other, and so I
didn't want it to be that way.
And there was like some otherqualities that I wrote down and
it was like we were moving intogether right before we got
married and I found this listand he checked every box.
So, like that was me learningabout myself and saying, no, I'm
(32:42):
not going to put up with any ofthis unless it shows up the way
that I want it to.
And if it doesn't, then it's notworth it.
And then he didn't even.
And I did do some dating, butmy son got introduced to no one
except for my husband becausethat was a separate life until I
knew that there was actuallygoing to be something long-term
(33:03):
and stable.
I didn't.
I mean, I dated, but notseriously enough to introduce my
son to any of them except formy husband.
And so there is.
There was a lot of work betweenthat, though, on myself, um,
around these things that we'vebeen talking about boundaries,
knowing who I am, what it isthat I want, how I want to be
(33:25):
treated, and then, you know,ensuring that I am treated that
way or that there's consequences, Um, you can't just have access
to my time, like Danielle wassaying, unlimited, and
especially if you're going to,it's not going to be a
beneficial conversation for me.
Then you absolutely don't haveaccess to me anymore.
(33:47):
And I didn't know, I don'tthink I knew before my divorce
that that was something I coulddo with people, because you know
, I had a mother same thing shewould like, she crossed
boundaries all the time, and Ijust thought I had to allow that
to happen, because that's justlife, right, that's just people.
And if you want to haverelationships with these people,
but you can actually changeyour relationship by engaging in
(34:11):
them differently.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Yeah, it's, um, it's, funnily enough, changed my
relationship.
So my mum died, funnily enough,at the beginning of last year.
So it was a bit of a big yearlast year, huge, emotional year.
But my, my, my mum and dadseparated when I was very young
and both remarried.
So I still have a stepdad, adad and a stepmom.
My dad and my stepmom live veryclose to me so I've always had
(34:36):
a relationship with them and butit's changed actually since I
got or separated.
I'm closer to them but theyhave tried to, you know, step on
my boundaries a little bit.
But I'm more confident nowprobably more so now than I ever
was when I was with my husbandto say, actually I don't like it
(34:59):
when you do X, y or Z, which Idon't think I'd have done before
.
So, yeah, maybe the whole thingis just.
It does just change yourmindset a little bit of I don't
have to accept this.
I'm just going to turn thelight on on.
It's getting dark here in theUK.
(35:19):
I did not even think about thatwhen we first sat down.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
I'm sorry and I just think that that's such a good
point, though, like because it'salso like it's like the double
whammy, because I also feel likemidlife is a time where we
start going.
I'm actually going to get realwith myself because I'm halfway
done now and I always see likethe first half of my life was
like what I thought I should doright, I should go get a college
(35:45):
degree and a job and a blah andthe kid and the husband, the
old things and now it's likewell, I want the second half to
be what I want it to be, and ifit's going to be what I want it
to be, that means I have to havehigher standards for things,
not just my partner, but likehigher standards for myself.
(36:05):
Even like I'm, you know, I'mnot going to drink as much
alcohol as maybe I would havewanted to, but I can't because
of perimenopause and because I'maging and I want to feel better
in my body, and so there'sboundaries not just with other
people, but there's alsoboundaries within myself, and I
become a lot stronger in beingable to handle myself in all
(36:28):
those ways.
And I I do believe that itstarted with the divorce,
because without that divorcebeing so hard and so harsh.
I don't know that I ever wouldhave gone to therapy, um, and
that was really high opening forme.
And then, of course, in the last15 years, I've also sat in a
lot of women's circles, which isamazingly healing to be able to
(36:53):
um talk and hear other, justlike we're doing today.
There's people out therelistening to this that are like,
ah, I'm not alone, like it'sokay if I leave my marriage, you
know, and I don't think thatthat was okay for all of us back
then.
And I'm here to offer hope that, like, I have a, really I've
(37:14):
been married for 12 years nowand it's a fantastic marriage.
And it's a fantastic marriagebecause we both do our own work
and then when we come together,we're clear, we're better at
communication, we have the hardconversations, we're very
vulnerable with each other, andthat makes that makes a huge
(37:35):
difference, um, so, yeah, withthat, we're just about coming to
our time.
So if each of you could offerone piece of wisdom or a
takeaway from this conversationand um share with us how we can
connect with you, that'd begreat.
Michelle, you want to go first?
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Sure, so I'm still very early on in my journey, um,
we officially separated aboutjust over a year ago, um, and I
only moved out half a year agojust over half a year ago and
and got my own space.
So I think my kind of word ofwisdom is when you first move
(38:17):
into your own space, when youfirst get that space that is
your own, it's going to feelabsolutely uncomfortable, weird,
and, no matter how much youdesired it, it's still going to
be a very, very strange, surrealtime in your life.
Allow it, just let yourself go.
(38:38):
Okay, this is really odd.
I don't know what to do, becauseI get the luxury now of spare
time which I never had before,and it took me months to get to
the stage where I startedenjoying my life.
But I now say so, I'm now.
You know where are we?
September now, so nine monthsinto being separated and having
(38:58):
that luxury of my own space.
And I do call it luxury becauseactually I'm a better parent
for having a break from mychildren.
So don't feel the guilt as such, but I would now say I've never
been happier than what I amright now.
I've never been happier thanwhat I am right now.
(39:19):
I would say that.
So give yourself the time toadjust.
It is okay to not be instantlyhappy, because I thought I would
be.
I thought getting out of thatspace would make me instantly
happy it didn't happen quitelike that.
It took a long time to get tothat stage.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Yeah yeah, Healing is not an overnight process
unfortunately.
Speaker 3 (39:35):
Yeah healing is not an overnight process.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Unfortunately, and even when we know that the
situation isn't right for us,there's still healing that needs
to happen, and I think thatthat's so important.
Thanks for sharing that.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
And I am also in therapy and it's really helping
me.
As for how to contact me, soI'm on Best Way is on TikTok,
which my handle on there ismichellehaslam, but yeah, that's
where I live.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
Thanks, michelle, thank you, and Danielle, yes, so
I think one of my biggestlessons in the last two years
has been to reframe what I see,or what I believe is success for
myself.
Um, and you know, having thenuclear family, having the big
(40:22):
home that we built together wasa custom 5,000 square foot home
on five acres of land, all ofthe all of the material things
um had kind of tricked me intobelieving like I've achieved,
I've achieved the success, right, I've, I've gotten there, I've
made it.
And then ending thatrelationship has meant that I
don't have all those physicalthings anymore that I had tied
(40:46):
my self-worth, my self-esteemand my you know my version or my
definition of success to Um and, and truthfully, I knew this
before leaving the relationship.
But there was a point in timewhere, like it just kind of hit
(41:07):
me, like I walked away from allof that.
What have I done and who am Inow?
Um, but but I, actually, priorto making the decision to end
the marriage, I really felt likethis is not success to me.
What's happening here?
This is a, this is a facade,and I don't live behind the
(41:29):
facade anymore.
So it can feel very vulnerableand can feel very vulnerable and
um, and sometimes um,uncomfortable, right,
uncomfortable, um, but I I justknow like okay, that's, that's,
that's okay, that's a part of umhaving an authentic life.
What I actually said that Iwanted before, which was
(41:51):
integrity and um and honesty andum trust.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
And it's like what we put out there right On
Instagram is like it's a greatInstagram story, right, it's a
pretty picture, but we reallydon't know what's going on
behind that pretty picture.
Yeah, how can people?
Speaker 3 (42:09):
contact you, danielle .
Oh, thank you.
Yeah, instagram actually is agreat place to connect with me.
Or on Facebook yeah, instagramactually is a great place to
connect with me.
Or on Facebook.
I'm at Dr.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
Danielle Angela on both of those platforms.
Awesome, awesome.
I will make sure that thoselinks are below.
I think if I was going to giveone piece of wisdom is, when you
have a divorce, have a dreamfuneral, like there is a grief
even if even if it was awfulrelationship, even if you're
parting on terrible terms orlike celebratory thank God I'm
out of that kind of terms thereis still a life that we imagined
(42:45):
that we would have.
That is no longer.
That.
It changes, it's different,right, it's not how we imagined
it, especially on the day thatwe got married.
So for me, one of the thingsthat has been really helpful is
like writing down all the thingsthat I thought would be, or the
worries that I had for my son.
You know, being in a divorcedhome and everything in a broken
(43:08):
home, like and letting go ofthose things in some kind of
ritualistic way, was really,really helpful for me to grieve
it.
Right, because all that anger Ihad, I believe, was really just
grief that was underneathbetween being angry at him,
being angry at myself and beingreally sad for my son.
All right, women, thank you somuch for being here and talking
(43:32):
about this very hard topic.
I know that not most of us wantto sit around and talk about
the war because it's so much andit's so heavy, and so I really
appreciate the fact that you um,you two were really brave to
come on and just share what'shappened for you and audience.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
We'll talk to you again nextweek.
Welcome back to the Inviting Shift podcast.
I am here today.
We're going to talk aboutsomething that's becoming it's
hard to say the word popular,isn't it?
But uh, happens more is divorceand midlife.
Um, and I'm here with tworeally lovely ladies, michelle
and Danielle, to talk about whatthat's like and what it's like
(00:22):
to be single in midlife.
And I know that divorce wasprobably one of the hardest
things I ever went through.
I mean doesn't mean that itwasn't completely worth it, but
it was definitely one of thehardest things that I had gone
through, and I I personally wasvery angry for about five years.
(00:42):
I went through a five-yearperiod of being really angry
until one day I just got tiredof being angry.
But I'd love to.
I'm looking forward to hearingMichelle and Danielle's stories.
So, without any further ado,michelle, thank you for being on
the show.
Can you tell us a little bitabout yourself and your
experiences?
Bit?
Speaker 2 (01:03):
about yourself and your experiences.
Sure, so I'm Michelle.
I'm a TikToker, a contentcreator on TikTok, and, yeah,
I'm recently separated from myhusband and have two children
aged six and nine, and I've onlybeen living alone since January
(01:24):
of this year, so it's inJanuary 2024.
So it's all very fresh and newfor me, but it's the right path,
beautiful.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
And Danielle, welcome .
Hi, thanks so much for havingme.
I am Danielle Angela.
I have been divorced twice.
The first divorce was I don'twant to sound flippant, but it
was easy peasy no childreninvolved, and we agreed on how
to split everything and win ourseparate ways.
The second divorce and honestlythe second marriage was much
(01:59):
more challenging and involvedthree children plus a stepchild
who is, um my former husband'soldest child.
She's almost 22.
And my, my three daughters thatI birthed were 11, eight and
four at the time of ourseparation.
They're now 13, 10 and six.
Um, it's, it's been a ride,it's.
(02:22):
It's, christina, as you saidit's.
It was like the hardest thingthat you've gone through, for
sure, and also a hundred percentnecessary and worth it.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Yeah, I agree, it was for me too challenging because
I only had the one child, but Imean any child.
It means that, like you'reconnected to this person like
forever.
It feels like I mean, my son isnow going to be 22.
So I don't have to engage thatoften with my ex-husband.
Um, and it was really, reallychallenging and we didn't even
(03:00):
have like financial stuff toseparate because there was like
nothing really to separateamongst us.
It really had to do with takingcare of the child and the fact
that, like I was, I was moreangry at myself because I kept
going back, because I wanted tofix it for my son, I wanted to
(03:22):
make it for my son, I wanted tomake it okay for him.
Like I was like, ah, surely youcan just get by.
Um, when I was talking toMichelle before we actually
started recording about, likethere's a lot of marriages that
happen after children um,graduate or leave the home and
then people decide to getdivorced.
But what I realized is thosekids are actually watching their
(03:47):
parents in a very dysfunctionalrelationship for so long.
And when I looked down at mythree or four-year-old child, I
was like, do I want him to thinkthat the way that we're
interacting is okay or the waythat I'm being treated is the
(04:09):
way that I want him to treat afuture partner.
And with that I could not staybecause I was like, absolutely
not Like I would want mychildren to have boundaries
around this stuff and be like,nope, not going to be treated
that way.
So I'm curious what came up fory'all, because I was just angry
(04:29):
for a really long time, areally long time.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
I just remember being so angry for so many years and
my friends thinking I was a manhater and I was like I don't
hate all men, I get that, yeah,so with me, I think we were
probably living as roommates fora very, very long time.
I genuinely think, you know,when people say let's have kids,
it will fix the marriage, Iactually think the opposite is
often true, in that having kidsis such a challenge that it can
(05:00):
completely change yourrelationship with your husband
and um, and that was, I think,probably the case for us.
We became parents and roommatesand that was about it, and and
we, we, you know, probablydidn't make enough time to work
on each other and and therelationship and you know, date,
(05:21):
date nights were so infrequentI could probably count them on
one or two hands since thechildren were born and, and you
know it's, it was.
We didn't work on each otherand by the end, it just wasn't a
functional relationship in theslightest.
And we, we, we made each otherunhappy, very unhappy, and I
(05:43):
would.
When I'm unhappy, my response isalways to disappear in some way
, so I would go up to thebedroom and sort of escape from
life, and I wasn't living lifeat all really.
So when I moved into my ownplace, which is, like I said,
very, very recent.
It's sort of been this crazydiscovery of a brand new life,
(06:05):
of oh okay.
So, for example, this weekend Idon't have the children.
Um, what do I do with my time?
And at first I had absolutelyno clue what to do with my time
and I would sit there and donothing, so and go.
Well, I don't know who I amanymore.
So it's been a journey howabout for you?
Speaker 3 (06:25):
I relate so much with both of both of you and what
you've shared so far.
For me, um, I think the themost surprising challenge for me
through, um, the last two yearsafter having ended my second
marriage has been a lot of grief, a lot, a lot of grief, and I I
(06:54):
didn't how can I put this, likein a respectful way?
Um, the grief was not in regardto the end of the marriage or
the loss of my former partner,because it was not a healthy
relationship, and I have felt,from the moment I made the
(07:15):
decision to end that marriage,so much relief and I've been
able to just feel the calm thatI felt like I'd never had before
.
The thing for me that's reallycome to the surface is the grief
around not having a nuclearfamily, which is also really
(07:37):
under the surface, about nothaving the nuclear family when I
was a child either, and so,like, as I've grieved not having
a nuclear family or not feelinglike I have the traditional
nuclear family, I've been ableto realize like, oh, actually
I've been just kind of stuffingdown how I felt about my
(07:57):
childhood for all of these yearsand not addressing a lot of
things that I yeah, I had justbeen basically ignoring and
thinking like, well, that's inthe past, I'm not going to think
about that anymore, and feelinglike I had moved on or gotten
past it.
But what I, what I've reallybecome aware of through
(08:19):
processing all of that, is a lotof the things from the past.
Through my childhood were stilldictating the decisions that I
was making, especially in regardto the men that I chose to be
in relationship with.
So, gosh, that's been hard,painful, time consuming, um,
distracting from other things,you know, distracting from um,
(08:43):
like where I thought I would bein my career right now, where I
thought I would be in mybusiness right now.
Um, instead, I've taken a longpause and just given myself a
lot of space to work, work onmyself.
I had to do that.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
I had to take the long pause as well.
So essentially from about Marchto the beginning of September,
I sort of did nothing, and itwas it's like you need to take
that time yeah if you've got theopportunity to and I you know,
and it may be that, um, womenwho are employed don't
(09:19):
necessarily get that time butwhen you're self-employed you
have a little bit more controlover your own schedule a little
bit.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
But yeah, I had to do exactly the same thing
(10:03):
no-transcript, so much energy,which I think is why I was so
angry.
And I know, underneath an angerthere was grief, there was
sadness, there was fear, therewas shame, um, all of those
things.
And so, even though I call itanger, I it was like easy for me
(10:24):
back then because I could pointto all the things that he had
done wrong that made ourmarriage so hard.
And yet, you know, when I wastired of being angry and I went
to therapy, I was like, oh, andhere's all the things I did to
contribute to that Like, eventhough they may not have been
(10:45):
like in our vows, I sure hadmade it really easy for him to
be petty and hurtful and, um, doother things, because I was
also not showing up in my bestlight either.
So I, it took me many years toactually own that part, um, and
it took a therapist.
(11:06):
And, and the reason I went tothe therapist was, um, because I
had been taking my son totherapy, because his dad decided
to move across the country andsuddenly my child's grades like
just sunk.
Um, he went from like an Astudent to like a D student
overnight.
And so, um, I took him thereand he went and he got a lot of
(11:28):
benefit.
And then one day she was like,christina, have you been to a
counselor?
And I was like, oh no, I should.
Yeah, I know, I get it.
Ha ha, you know.
And then the next time sheasked again, did you make an
appointment?
And I was like, oh no, I reallyshould.
And she looked at me and shesaid, christina, he's going to
be okay when you're okay.
(11:50):
I don't know if I ever wouldhave known that if it wasn't for
the divorce.
Like that I am to what Daniellewas saying Like I didn't realize
how much unhealed stuff I hadthat I was bringing into my
marriage.
And I just did a life reviewlast year and I went through my
twenties and I was like I wasthe red flag collector.
(12:10):
It wasn't my first husband, itwas every man that I dated
before that too.
Like they were all the sameversion, like a different
version of the same person, andI'm sure that that had a lot to
do with you know my family andthe way that I was raised.
So for me it was a lot oftherapy, helped me start getting
(12:33):
through that.
And that was even after I waswith the man I'm married to now,
which is very lovely and doesnot have the same qualities.
I was very, very particular thesecond time around and I was
like because what I learned frommy first marriage was, if I'm
(12:53):
with somebody and they're notcontributing or benefiting my
life in some way, I would ratherbe alone, because I can do it
better on my own than I canbeing with somebody who I also
have to caretake or um takesmore energy from me than offers
me.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Yeah, absolutely For sure.
Yes, One of the hardest thingsfor me in the last two years has
been recognizing how entangled,emotionally enmeshed I was with
my children and how much peoplepleasing I was doing.
I was, you know, like bendingover backwards to do whatever I
(13:32):
could to make sure that theywere happy.
But really, under the surface,it was like I'm afraid that
they're not going to be happywith me and and I had such
little bandwidth for any kind ofdiscourse with them.
Um, or, you know, just likeconsequences for behavior
(13:54):
choices that were not ideal, wedidn't have any rules there.
There were no like clearexpectations.
Um, the one thing that theirfather and I had always told
them was to always be honest.
But there was so muchdishonesty under the surface and
they didn't know that.
But, um, I think you knowwhether we know something
(14:15):
because someone has spoken itout loud or not is one thing,
but, like, our bodies just sensethat tension that happens and
um sense that tension thathappens and um, it's.
It's taken a lot for me to sortof redirect them.
Like um, I was in a coachingprogram last year and we talked
a lot about boundaries and theyasked me what are your
(14:36):
boundaries with your kids, and Iwas like I have no idea, I have
no idea.
And then I started to thinkabout what are some things that
happen in the home when my kidsare here that I don't like, and
so one really prominent examplefor me is that my children used
to just walk into my room andtake my stuff take my
(14:59):
hairbrushes or my hairdryer, ora pillow or blanket, whatever
they, whatever they wanted.
It was like they just walked in, took it and then I would be
going to look for the thing andI'm like, where's my hairbrush?
And find it in one of theirbedrooms.
And so I created a rule or aboundary, um, and thankfully
(15:19):
this worked pretty quickly,because I don't like doing it.
It's still uncomfortable for me,but I said you can no longer
walk into someone else's room,especially now that you're
getting older.
You can't do this to me, youcan't do it to each other.
You have to ask for permissionbefore you enter the room.
You have to ask for permissionbefore you take someone's
belongings.
And if you don't do it, if youwalk into my room or someone
(15:41):
else's bedroom withoutpermission, the.
And if you don't do it, if youwalk into my room or someone
else's bedroom withoutpermission, the door of your own
room comes off.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
For two weeks I wouldn't even know how to take a
door off, to be honest, butthat's really impressive.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
Yeah, I had help with that.
I had to do it, I think, threetimes and they learned very
quickly.
My youngest she's only six,she's actually the best at
honoring that boundary.
It might just also be becauseshe comes into my room the most,
because she wants to talk withme or be near me, because she's
still small.
But, um, she will be in my roomwith me.
(16:21):
She will leave the room to goget a snack and then come back
and before she steps through thedoor, the doorway, she says can
I come back in?
Yes, thank you for asking.
So just, you know those kindsof little things.
They seem little, but I, myhope is that by creating
boundaries with my kids likethat, now that they are, that's
(16:44):
being modeled for them and thatthey're able to to do that
because it to do that forthemselves, because I wasn't
able to do that until I was 43years old.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Yeah, and then you know that that also changes the
type of partner that you are.
Uh, you are going to marry orbe with.
Right Is like, because if theystart, you know, after your
model, they start holdingboundaries and the other person
doesn't respect those boundaries, then it's like oh, this is not
a person for me.
(17:16):
So it's like you're teachingthem self care in that way,
which is why I think you know wetalk about like why are so many
women, you know, seekingdivorce?
Well, one, because today theycan, or 50 years ago it made it
really really challenging, um,and two, it's like I think we're
(17:36):
just not as willing to put upwith the bullshit.
Um, we were talking about beforethis that like the bar used to
be the bullshit we were talkingabout before this, that like the
bar used to be well, he doesn'tbeat you.
And it's like oh so, this isthe benchmark.
Like, if I'm not being abused,then I should stay in a
relationship.
That's miserable.
Yeah, for the kids is used tobe the thought and it was like
(17:58):
but now the kids are learning tobe in dysfunctional
relationships that are nothealthy and they are hurtful.
And you know, would I want mychild to stay in that?
Absolutely not Like I want themto take care of themselves.
So what a beautiful way of likestarting to instill boundaries
and showing them.
You know these.
This is how relationships even,you know, doesn't even have to
(18:22):
be a partner, but justrelationships amongst friends
and family like we're allowed tohave boundaries, we're allowed
to say no, that doesn't work forme, or walk away if something
is hurtful.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
It's funny because I've definitely learned to
remove the people from my lifethat don't add anything to it
and to have more of the peoplein my life that do add things to
it, and that really does make adifference to the quality of
life that you have, and it'swhen you're living with someone
it's impossible.
You cannot just remove them.
You know, I, we, we co-parentequally, um, so I, I and I,
(18:59):
because our children are soyoung, we do it, we sort of swap
houses quite often, so I haveto see him quite often.
We've remained amicable, whichI am forever thankful for, but
it does mean having to see eachother all the time, and so you
kind of have to still deal withthat person, but then you can
walk away again and that's.
(19:20):
I love that bit.
It's not that I mind beingaround him, but it's, you know,
it's nice to be able to comeback to my own space and know
that he has no control here andit's all all up to me and and
the boundary thing.
And so I was always the softone of the relationship when it
came to the kids.
(19:41):
So I've had to step up a bit, abit like you, danielle, and
I've had to become someone who'sa little bit stricter than I
would normally like to be,because there's no one else to
do that in this household.
So, you know, when it comes tothings like screen time, the
kids, if they could, they'd beon it from the moment they woke
up to the moment they go to bedwith, you know, some snacks.
(20:03):
If they could have that, thatwould be their perfect day.
Just if I fed them snacks as asthey were on screens and.
But obviously that's not goodfor them in the slightest.
So, yeah, I have to install,instill the boundaries when it
comes to screen time, and theyknow that I mean it and I, you
know I will take those thingsaway from them if they don't.
(20:24):
Um, they don't listen to me, butthey always try and push the
boundary a little bit, sothere's always a little bit of a
well, but I'm just finishing upthis one thing and I'm and I
say, how long is it going totake?
Because if it's any more thantwo minutes, then I'm just going
to turn it off and they go.
Okay, I'm just finished, quickand um, but yeah, it, it can be
hard, because I want them tolike me.
You know they're my kids and ifit and you and I suppose the
(20:48):
one thing you have to deal withwhen you're a single mum is it's
just you.
There isn't someone else to comein and help with discipline or
boundary setting or anythinglike that.
It is just up to one person, um, and so I want my kids to like
me, but I also really need themto know that I'm their parent
(21:09):
way over them liking me.
So quite often they don't likeme very much because I'm having
to do things that they don'tlike, but it is the right thing
for them, but that can be quitehard sometimes to have you know
know they're six, six and nineyears old, so the nine year old
starting to go into that prepubescent age.
(21:30):
She's just gone into middleschool as well, so she's changed
school and, yeah, there's a lotof emotions going on, big
emotions we have to deal with.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
I really relate to that, michelle.
Yeah, the the like, the feelingof wanting my kids to like me,
but but recognizing that for thelongterm what's best is not
necessarily that they like meright now, but that I'm teaching
them how to be in the world.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Respect is more important than liking.
I think as a parent especiallyas you're like respect, because
I'm here to help you grow in theworld.
It's going to be uncomfortable,like that's just the way it is,
and and um, that's my job.
My job isn't to be your friend.
First you can go find friends.
(22:15):
I'm the only mom you're gonnahave.
I mean and I say that today, myson has four parents that love
him very much.
Um, he knows he's loved andadored and needs for nothing.
In fact, I just saw him thispast weekend for the first time
in two years, cause he's been inthe military, and, um, it was
(22:37):
just I was.
I was like don't you needsomething from here or something
from there?
You need underwear, you needsocks?
What do you need?
And he's like, mom, I don'tneed anything.
I'm a sergeant in the military,I can take care of all my.
And it's like success is sobittersweet you know what I mean
Cause I'm so happy that he'ssuccessfully independent in the
(23:00):
world and he can take care ofhimself, and I, I mean, I really
believe he's really smart andreally proud of him, and yet, at
the same time, it's like I'mnot needed.
You know, like that mommy, partof me is not needed.
And I just remember so manyyears ago, when it was just me
and him, and but I really likefor me and I guess I just want
(23:30):
to bring this up in case there'saudience members that are
listening and going ah, I reallywant this to work out.
I want to have this beautifulnuclear family that, uh,
danielle was talking about,cause that was me.
I was like, ah, you know,surely I can just make this work
, I can just shut my mouth andmove on with this marriage, and
(23:50):
I think that's what really madeit even worse.
Is that cause?
Then I would.
I was no longer getting mad athim.
I was getting mad at myself forputting up with all of the crap
that he I felt he was puttingme through all the boundaries,
that he was crossing all thevows, he was breaking all these
like ridiculous ways, liketaking all the money out of the
(24:14):
bank account, like all of thesethings that just infuriated me.
I started just being reallyangry with myself because I was
like, you know, fool me once,shame on you.
Fool me a hundred times, shameon me.
And, and I think that's whatreally tore up Like I love the
idea that, michelle, that youhave an amicable relationship.
(24:36):
Ours was not so amicable, I mean, today we could be in the same
room and we're going to be civil.
But there was, like, when hemoved across the country, his
new wife wanted to take our sonwith him and I was like well,
that's just crazy, I don't knowwhat you're thinking there.
That's not going to happen.
Like, maybe when he's older andhe did end up spending his high
(24:59):
school years with his dad Isaid once he's older, that's
fine, but he was like six at thetime and I was like I've been
his person, like I had custodyof him most of the time and so,
like I that's like all of thosethings started making the
relationship that we had moreand more challenging, to the
point where I had to get totexting with just logistics
(25:24):
because I could not have aconversation with my ex-husband
because it was my opinion isthat he's a proliferate liar and
I don't know why he's lying tome, and it's often about silly
stuff.
Like I don't know why he'smaking this stuff up and I would
get so angry about like why ishe telling me this?
Is this even true?
(25:45):
What's the purpose of it?
Like, and I would get so angrythat I had to get to a point
where it was like we just textedlogistics and that made our
relationship a lot better andthat was one of the boundaries I
put in.
It was like, no, I'm not goingto get on the phone call with
him, I'm not going to have longconversations.
If I see him at an event or asporting event or something, of
(26:07):
course I'll say hi, but like, ifit's not logistics, that's the
end of the conversation for me.
So I don't.
I I think that there's alldifferent ways of how divorce
can look.
I guess is the point that I'mcoming to.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
When I say we're amicable, we're amicable with as
little contact as we possiblycan have.
So you know the school admin.
It drives me insane that itnever stops.
So we have to constantlycommunicate, but it's via
WhatsApp.
We never phone each other butbecause we see each other, maybe
two or three times a week, wecan communicate at those times
(26:47):
with the bigger things that weneed to talk about in a bit more
depth.
But, yeah, it is still aslittle as possible.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Because you know there's a reason we're separated
.
Speaker 3 (26:59):
I think that's really important and that's been a
hard lesson for me to learn aswell.
My former husband and I, mychildren's father, he and I had
a lot of communication after ourseparation.
We had phone calls, textmessages, it was sometimes
(27:20):
FaceTime and at a certain pointI started to back away a bit.
I just didn't want to engagewith him so much and I could
feel that the reason that I wasdoing it, the reason that I was
still engage with him so muchand I could, I could feel that
the reason that I was doing it,the reason that I was still
communicating with him sofrequently, was because I felt
(27:43):
like if I didn't, he would getme in trouble.
So, um, so I was trying toappear like a good co-parent and
truthfully, in in my you knowmy very optimistic and hopeful
mind, I felt like, yeah, like wecan still, we can get divorced
(28:03):
and we can still do likeholidays together and birthdays
for the kids, right, idealscenario.
And you know that would likeshow some unity for our children
and it might feel good if, ifthe circumstances were different
.
Um, so for me, over the lasttwo years it's had, it's been
(28:25):
two years this month actually Um, I have.
I've kind of gone through like,different levels of like
removing myself from the backand forth and from the
communication.
Um, and then, like he kind of Ican kind of sense like he
adjusts to that, he gets okaywith it, and then things are as
they are for a bit and then,like, then I get to another
(28:47):
point where I'm like no, youdon't get to have this much
access to me anymore.
Like this, this no, I'm notavailable for a phone call about
our daughter's hygiene rightnow.
You can send me a text messageabout it if it's something
that's urgent or, you know,maybe we can schedule a time to
talk about it in another format.
But it's again like theboundaries.
(29:08):
You know, it's just been athing for me to learn where I
let people I had previously letpeople engage with me in ways
that I felt like I didn't wantthem to, but I just kept being
available for it.
I didn't walk from it.
I was like I don't like it whenyou do that.
And then the next time I don'tlike it when you do that, don't
(29:30):
do that to me.
And there were never anyconsequences.
So that that's been a very andactually just really this year.
That's something that I've.
I've really really come intolike an embodiment with, where
I'm like, oh, if someone crossesa boundary, that's my boundary,
it's my job then to uphold theconsequence it's not, it's not
(29:53):
for me to go like this personjust doesn't honor my boundaries
.
Consequence it's not, it's notfor me to go like.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
This person just doesn't honor my boundaries,
danielle, are you?
Are you dating?
Have you done any dating sinceyou divorced?
Speaker 3 (30:03):
um, not dating so much, but I do.
I do have a significant other.
Um, it's kind of an unusualscenario because when I asked,
like, did I date?
Well, like, yes, we dated eachother, um, but I didn't date
anyone else besides him.
We were friends before where webecame a couple, so it was kind
of easy and natural.
(30:24):
Yeah, and it's a much differentdynamic.
This is a whole different topicthat we could go down the
rabbit hole with.
But having been in arelationship with someone where
it was like there was a lot ofpassion in the beginning and
then not much substanceunderneath that, to now being in
(30:44):
a relationship with someonewhere we were friends first and
there was a lot of mutualrespect and trust built before
we engaged in a romanticrelationship, it feels very
different.
It feels at the risk ofsounding a bit cheesy it just
feels much more safe and secure,which is really something that
(31:07):
I had been wanting for a longtime, anyway, and was looking
for in all the wrong places.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Was looking for in all the wrong places.
I loved what you were sayingabout what you're learning about
yourself, because if there isone really huge benefit to
getting divorced, is that inthose five years of being angry
and the therapy after is when Ilearned a lot about myself.
(31:36):
What is it that I want, what isit that I need?
And I told you how, like someof my friends started thinking I
was a man hater and it wasbecause they were like, oh, no
man's ever going to be goodenough for you now.
And I was like, well, that'snot true, like I'd hate to
believe that that's true.
And so one night, probably aftera few too many glasses of wine,
(31:57):
I wrote down a list of likewhat I wanted out of a partner,
and not like six, two and brownhair, nothing like that, but
like that he was going to takemy child and like he was going
to father him properly, cause Ihad a stepfather and it seemed
like the stepchildren werealways in a war by the parents,
(32:19):
like the parents were pitting usagainst each other, and so I
didn't want it to be that way.
And there was like some otherqualities that I wrote down and
it was like we were moving intogether right before we got
married and I found this listand he checked every box.
So, like that was me learningabout myself and saying, no, I'm
(32:42):
not going to put up with any ofthis unless it shows up the way
that I want it to.
And if it doesn't, then it's notworth it.
And then he didn't even.
And I did do some dating, butmy son got introduced to no one
except for my husband becausethat was a separate life until I
knew that there was actuallygoing to be something long-term
(33:03):
and stable.
I didn't.
I mean, I dated, but notseriously enough to introduce my
son to any of them except formy husband.
And so there is.
There was a lot of work betweenthat, though, on myself, um,
around these things that we'vebeen talking about boundaries,
knowing who I am, what it isthat I want, how I want to be
(33:25):
treated, and then, you know,ensuring that I am treated that
way or that there's consequences, Um, you can't just have access
to my time, like Danielle wassaying, unlimited, and
especially if you're going to,it's not going to be a
beneficial conversation for me.
Then you absolutely don't haveaccess to me anymore.
(33:47):
And I didn't know, I don'tthink I knew before my divorce
that that was something I coulddo with people, because you know
, I had a mother same thing shewould like, she crossed
boundaries all the time, and Ijust thought I had to allow that
to happen, because that's justlife, right, that's just people.
And if you want to haverelationships with these people,
but you can actually changeyour relationship by engaging in
(34:11):
them differently.
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Yeah, it's, um, it's, funnily enough, changed my
relationship.
So my mum died, funnily enough,at the beginning of last year.
So it was a bit of a big yearlast year, huge, emotional year.
But my, my, my mum and dadseparated when I was very young
and both remarried.
So I still have a stepdad, adad and a stepmom.
My dad and my stepmom live veryclose to me so I've always had
(34:36):
a relationship with them and butit's changed actually since I
got or separated.
I'm closer to them but theyhave tried to, you know, step on
my boundaries a little bit.
But I'm more confident nowprobably more so now than I ever
was when I was with my husbandto say, actually I don't like it
(34:59):
when you do X, y or Z, which Idon't think I'd have done before
.
So, yeah, maybe the whole thingis just.
It does just change yourmindset a little bit of I don't
have to accept this.
I'm just going to turn thelight on on.
It's getting dark here in theUK.
(35:19):
I did not even think about thatwhen we first sat down.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
I'm sorry and I just think that that's such a good
point, though, like because it'salso like it's like the double
whammy, because I also feel likemidlife is a time where we
start going.
I'm actually going to get realwith myself because I'm halfway
done now and I always see likethe first half of my life was
like what I thought I should doright, I should go get a college
(35:45):
degree and a job and a blah andthe kid and the husband, the
old things and now it's likewell, I want the second half to
be what I want it to be, and ifit's going to be what I want it
to be, that means I have to havehigher standards for things,
not just my partner, but likehigher standards for myself.
(36:05):
Even like I'm, you know, I'mnot going to drink as much
alcohol as maybe I would havewanted to, but I can't because
of perimenopause and because I'maging and I want to feel better
in my body, and so there'sboundaries not just with other
people, but there's alsoboundaries within myself, and I
become a lot stronger in beingable to handle myself in all
(36:28):
those ways.
And I I do believe that itstarted with the divorce,
because without that divorcebeing so hard and so harsh.
I don't know that I ever wouldhave gone to therapy, um, and
that was really high opening forme.
And then, of course, in the last15 years, I've also sat in a
lot of women's circles, which isamazingly healing to be able to
(36:53):
um talk and hear other, justlike we're doing today.
There's people out therelistening to this that are like,
ah, I'm not alone, like it'sokay if I leave my marriage, you
know, and I don't think thatthat was okay for all of us back
then.
And I'm here to offer hope that, like, I have a, really I've
(37:14):
been married for 12 years nowand it's a fantastic marriage.
And it's a fantastic marriagebecause we both do our own work
and then when we come together,we're clear, we're better at
communication, we have the hardconversations, we're very
vulnerable with each other, andthat makes that makes a huge
(37:35):
difference, um, so, yeah, withthat, we're just about coming to
our time.
So if each of you could offerone piece of wisdom or a
takeaway from this conversationand um share with us how we can
connect with you, that'd begreat.
Michelle, you want to go first?
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Sure, so I'm still very early on in my journey, um,
we officially separated aboutjust over a year ago, um, and I
only moved out half a year agojust over half a year ago and
and got my own space.
So I think my kind of word ofwisdom is when you first move
(38:17):
into your own space, when youfirst get that space that is
your own, it's going to feelabsolutely uncomfortable, weird,
and, no matter how much youdesired it, it's still going to
be a very, very strange, surrealtime in your life.
Allow it, just let yourself go.
(38:38):
Okay, this is really odd.
I don't know what to do, becauseI get the luxury now of spare
time which I never had before,and it took me months to get to
the stage where I startedenjoying my life.
But I now say so, I'm now.
You know where are we?
September now, so nine monthsinto being separated and having
(38:58):
that luxury of my own space.
And I do call it luxury becauseactually I'm a better parent
for having a break from mychildren.
So don't feel the guilt as such, but I would now say I've never
been happier than what I amright now.
I've never been happier thanwhat I am right now.
(39:19):
I would say that.
So give yourself the time toadjust.
It is okay to not be instantlyhappy, because I thought I would
be.
I thought getting out of thatspace would make me instantly
happy it didn't happen quitelike that.
It took a long time to get tothat stage.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Yeah yeah, Healing is not an overnight process
unfortunately.
Speaker 3 (39:35):
Yeah healing is not an overnight process.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Unfortunately, and even when we know that the
situation isn't right for us,there's still healing that needs
to happen, and I think thatthat's so important.
Thanks for sharing that.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
And I am also in therapy and it's really helping
me.
As for how to contact me, soI'm on Best Way is on TikTok,
which my handle on there ismichellehaslam, but yeah, that's
where I live.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
Thanks, michelle, thank you, and Danielle, yes, so
I think one of my biggestlessons in the last two years
has been to reframe what I see,or what I believe is success for
myself.
Um, and you know, having thenuclear family, having the big
(40:22):
home that we built together wasa custom 5,000 square foot home
on five acres of land, all ofthe all of the material things
um had kind of tricked me intobelieving like I've achieved,
I've achieved the success, right, I've, I've gotten there, I've
made it.
And then ending thatrelationship has meant that I
don't have all those physicalthings anymore that I had tied
(40:46):
my self-worth, my self-esteemand my you know my version or my
definition of success to Um and, and truthfully, I knew this
before leaving the relationship.
But there was a point in timewhere, like it just kind of hit
(41:07):
me, like I walked away from allof that.
What have I done and who am Inow?
Um, but but I, actually, priorto making the decision to end
the marriage, I really felt likethis is not success to me.
What's happening here?
This is a, this is a facade,and I don't live behind the
(41:29):
facade anymore.
So it can feel very vulnerableand can feel very vulnerable and
um, and sometimes um,uncomfortable, right,
uncomfortable, um, but I I justknow like okay, that's, that's,
that's okay, that's a part of umhaving an authentic life.
What I actually said that Iwanted before, which was
(41:51):
integrity and um and honesty andum trust.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
And it's like what we put out there right On
Instagram is like it's a greatInstagram story, right, it's a
pretty picture, but we reallydon't know what's going on
behind that pretty picture.
Yeah, how can people?
Speaker 3 (42:09):
contact you, danielle .
Oh, thank you.
Yeah, instagram actually is agreat place to connect with me.
Or on Facebook yeah, instagramactually is a great place to
connect with me.
Or on Facebook.
I'm at Dr.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
Danielle Angela on both of those platforms.
Awesome, awesome.
I will make sure that thoselinks are below.
I think if I was going to giveone piece of wisdom is, when you
have a divorce, have a dreamfuneral, like there is a grief
even if even if it was awfulrelationship, even if you're
parting on terrible terms orlike celebratory thank God I'm
out of that kind of terms thereis still a life that we imagined
(42:45):
that we would have.
That is no longer.
That.
It changes, it's different,right, it's not how we imagined
it, especially on the day thatwe got married.
So for me, one of the thingsthat has been really helpful is
like writing down all the thingsthat I thought would be, or the
worries that I had for my son.
You know, being in a divorcedhome and everything in a broken
(43:08):
home, like and letting go ofthose things in some kind of
ritualistic way, was really,really helpful for me to grieve
it.
Right, because all that anger Ihad, I believe, was really just
grief that was underneathbetween being angry at him,
being angry at myself and beingreally sad for my son.
All right, women, thank you somuch for being here and talking
(43:32):
about this very hard topic.
I know that not most of us wantto sit around and talk about
the war because it's so much andit's so heavy, and so I really
appreciate the fact that you um,you two were really brave to
come on and just share what'shappened for you and audience.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
We'll talk to you again nextweek.
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