January 2, 2025 • 58 mins
This is a gold nugget-laden show for anyone practicing in family law.
I interview our firm's highest-collecting attorney, Tiffany Vogel. She is a star, an ultra-high performer.
Tiffany gives a masterclass in operating a family law practice.
In this show, Tiffany shares:
• Her approach to client management as project management
• The importance of delegation for effective practice management
• Her own behavioral modification strategies for improving client relations
• The significance of self-awareness in legal practice
• Innovative client consultation methods for improved engagement
Enjoy!
-------------------------
Go to: www.JSterlingHughes.com for tons of Family Law Practice resources.
My purpose is to Empower Family Law Attorneys so they can build a beautiful family law practice and have the practice of their dreams.
I share my family law firm’s secrets, tactics, and strategies of how we have grown from 0 to 25 attorneys and over $15m in revenue in our first ten years.
When I am not podcasting, I am the CEO and Co-Founder of SterlingLawyers.com.
Follow me on: LinkedIn - YouTube - X - Instagram - TikTok
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So what this firm does a really good job of is
giving us a system to managetasks, and so what I try and do
is think about each client as aproject.
Yeah Right, and if you aredoing a project plan, like you
think about an IT project plan,and you're only writing the next
step in programming, you'velost sight of you know what's
(00:24):
your deliverable, what are yourobjectives.
And so I really try and take myexperience, having worked on IT
projects and having clearobjectives, deliverables, a
clear project plan, beginning toend.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Well, hello and welcome to the Jay Sterling
Hughes Show, where we share howwe have built our family law
firm from zero to 25 plusattorneys and 15 million in
revenue, all in the past 10years, and my purpose here is to
document what's working andwhat's not working, with hopes
that you can take that and youcan recontextualize it and
shorten your success curve.
I'm your host, jeff Hughes, andtoday's show I have a guest
(01:06):
with me, tiffany Vogel, andTiffany is annually our top
performer here at SterlingLawyers and we have an
incredible conversation comingup.
So Tiffany's one of ourpartners.
Let me just like spin Tiffany'san extended intro here, because
there is a wealth of nuggetsand great information to share
(01:26):
with our audience here that Iwant to tease out what you're
going to be sharing here becauseit's really, really good.
So Tiffany's one of ourpartners.
In our Appleton office, whichis a one of a small metro area
here in Wisconsin, in the northcentral part of the state.
She is going to talk about howshe has collected now listen to
this just shy of $1.3 millionthis year in 2024.
(01:49):
So we're recording this onDecember 13th of 24.
So the year's not quite over,but she's going to end up
somewhere close or just shy of1.3, which is incredible A for
anyone to do that in a year inany metro, but to do it in a
tiny metro of Appleton,wisconsin, is incredible.
And so Tiffany is an amazingattorney who has learned how to
(02:10):
create an efficient,team-centered practice.
So what you're going to behearing about is a couple things
here.
One is that I rememberinterviewing Tiffany back in
2019.
When she interviewed and aftershe came on board within about a
year, the light bulb went onfor me.
Her hiring and her performancehelped me understand the perfect
bullseye target for our hiringprocesses for lawyers.
(02:32):
She came in with some lifeexperience, very hungry, chip on
her shoulder, wanting to proveherself, and a combination of
those things are what really welook for in a lot of our new
hires, because that has been aformula for a lot of success for
our firm.
So she's going to talk aboutthat.
You're going to hear a lotabout how she has built a very
(02:54):
efficient practice.
She has two full-time supportstaffs.
One is here in Appleton, theother one is based out of the
Philippines, and she leveragesteammates.
They have great communicationbased out of the Philippines and
she leverages teammates.
They have great communicationand they have a philosophy that
they follow together and theyhold each other accountable
around the idea of eat the frogfirst.
So the frog is the mostdisgusting, gross thing and they
want to eat it first.
So you're going to hear aboutthat.
(03:15):
Another thing that our firm isfocused on in 2024 has been
shifting all of our ideology andphilosophy around client
service.
We want to be incredible,extraordinary at that.
That requires changesthroughout the whole firm and
Tiffany has been in the vanguardof that and has really
responded and has become anexceptional client server.
And I asked her about that inour pre-call, our warmup here,
(03:38):
and she didn't want to call itwhat I want to call it, which is
kind of like a clientsatisfaction.
She called it behavioralmodification on her end.
So she looked at it from astandpoint of what do I own and
what can I change, and so sheshares something in our podcast
today about behavioralmodification and she picked one
specific thing on how she servesone population which is adult,
(04:00):
middle-aged male guys like me,and how she had to shift her
thinking to do that and it madea world of difference because it
trickled out to every otheraspect of her client service.
So you don't want to miss thatpart of the podcast either,
because that is terrific.
We spent a fair amount of timetalking about how does she look
at a client as a project andthat kind of desensitized a
(04:21):
little bit.
She doesn't take the empathyand the human connection out of
it.
No, no, no.
What she does is she looks atevery case like a project and
she schedules that out in thebeginning, which enables her to
create a very efficient,proactive-based practice which
pushes cases along, which, bythe way, the clients really want
they want to be out of courtsystem.
She's identified that knows howto do that for them.
So you're going to hear how shegoes about doing that.
(04:43):
You're going to hear about herphilosophy around delegation
things that she won't and can'tdelegate, how she manages those
and how she's constantly lookingon a daily basis which is crazy
to think about on a daily basishow can she improve that
delegation interaction with herteam?
And then there's one reallycool idea that she shares about
she uses a link, gives all ofher clients a link in the very
(05:05):
beginning of her time with themwhere they can schedule 15
minutes with her, which, morethan anything, gives peace of
mind and comfort to clients andsome other ideas and strategies
she shares.
So, tiffany, I have like goneway beyond my typical intro time
and I've probably, you know,consumed a lot here, made you
blush a little bit.
But thank you for coming on theshow today and sharing with us
how you've had such an amazingsuccess this year.
(05:26):
And let's start off with theTiffany story.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
So I was actually born in a suburb of San
Francisco, but over the courseof my first couple of years my
parents relocated back toAppleton, where they were
originally from, and the reasonthey relocated here is because
both my parents were from here.
We have strong family roots,all our family is here, and my
(05:54):
mom was pregnant with myyoungest sister.
So ever since then my parentshave lived in the exact same
house.
I don't know that they'll eversell it.
They talk about retiring andmoving, but we've been here ever
since.
So I started at UW Fox Valley,which is closing this year.
(06:15):
Actually, I did my first yearof college there with the intent
that I was going to collect asmany majors as possible Like a
lifelong student sort of.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Thing.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
What was that?
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Like a lifelong student sort of mentality.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Absolutely.
That's been me since day one.
I've always had a really stronginterest in science, art or the
arts I should say primarilymusic and always been a really
strong writer and so just hadway too many interests to be
contained by any one major.
So I went to UW-Fox my firstyear and then I transferred to
(07:02):
UW-Stevens Point.
I went there.
The only reason I finallydecided it was time to leave
college is because they onlygive you student aid or did at
the time for so many years and Iwas no longer going to have
student aid to.
Had intended to study to be aband director, but I panicked
(07:30):
because I did not feel it wasappropriate to put an early
20-something-year-old in chargeof other people's children, and
I had a lot of anxiety aroundthat.
So at that time in my life myfear of failure was driving my
decision making.
(07:50):
It's something that's reallyreally difficult to overcome,
but I think it comes withexperience and practice,
deciding that what you want foryour life is, you know, having
that long-term vision and andknowing that the fear is
momentary, it is a moment intime, right, it's not going to
(08:12):
stay forever.
So then I ended up working foran insurance, a travel insurance
company at that time I thinkthey're actually owned by AIG
now and then worked there for ayear, managed call center while
I was there, moved back toAppleton after that year.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
So Appleton is a city of what size is for our
audience to get a view of?
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Appleton, I think we're right around 80,000, but
then we have a lot ofsurrounding communities.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
The whole area.
I mean it's not very big, acouple hundred thousand people
total, right.
Right, I would agree, yeah, sowe're talking small, small towns
, central Wisconsin, right, allto the earth people.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Yes, and Stevens Point is even smaller than that.
When I attended Stevens Point,I think the permanent population
was around 23,000.
And then there were acombination of 5,000 to 8,000,
if I remember, students andother more transient people in
(09:22):
that town.
So quite small.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Yeah, all right, so I interrupted you, so pick up
where I interrupted you at.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Yeah, so I ended up back in Appleton.
I worked for a mail machinecompany in a call center.
One of the most fun things Idid there was we worked in a pod
of two people and I worked inthe inbound call center.
So we were taking calls onaccounts and my pod teammate and
(09:54):
I decided that our jobs werekind of boring and that we
wanted to add a little friendlycompetition and so we started a
weekly competition to see whocould by luck of the draw, just
random, whichever calls you get,but if there was a past due
account, who could collect themost money on past due accounts.
(10:16):
Okay, so I think this sets upthe type of personality I have
in that you know we're going tolook for these, these
characteristics and futurelawyers that we hire.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
By the way, right Proves our here.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Right.
So he won once, I think, butgenerally I was the winner
because I was really determinedto collect on these accounts.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
And about what year was this, Tiffany?
Speaker 1 (10:47):
That would have been 2002-ish, Okay Long long before
I went to law school.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
So we're getting there, but after I left, that
After the music andenvironmental ethics major.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, myundergraduate degree was
complete at that point.
Actually, I'll go back for justa second to that.
I had a double major music andenvironmental ethics.
I was maybe a class or two shyof getting a biology, chemistry
and French minor.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Oh my goodness.
Okay, three minors plus twodoubles.
Yeah, a double Okay.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
A double yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Okay, um, after I left Pitney Bowes I went which
was the mail machine company Iwent to work for Thrivent, which
is a fortune 500 company.
They're unique in that they'rea fraternal, so you have to have
membership criteria and peoplewho purchase insurance from them
(11:55):
have to meet meet thatmembership criteria.
Learned a ton at that job.
So there I started in the callcenter again, worked my way into
a back office position called abusiness process analyst, so
someone who writes and evaluatesprocedures, works with the
system team on developingsystems, with the system team on
(12:22):
developing systems, interfaceswith the staff when they have
questions or they need certaintypes of approvals, that sort of
thing.
So that job and actually I'llgo back even further.
So that job was very processdriven.
I didn't mention that my motherowned a sewing business for a
lot of years and so from themoment I could hold a pair of
(12:45):
scissors and operate a sewingmachine, I worked for her and
that job was extremely processdriven as well and we were paid
on production.
So all the way back to latemiddle school and high school, I
was working for my mom doingtasks.
I mean the task was based on myage and my ability, but always
(13:09):
focused on how can I be asefficient with my time as
possible and make as much moneyas possible, while still
producing the quality of goodsthat were required for her to
maintain accounts that she hadwith large companies yeah,
interesting.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
So we're foreshadowing some of this
process driven mentality thatyou've brought into the practice
yes, so you decide to go off tolaw school, and what year was
that that you entered law school?
So you decided to go off to lawschool, and what year was that
that you entered law school?
Speaker 1 (13:38):
2015.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
And you were part time, if I recall right.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
When you went Somewhere between full time and
part time.
So the program I was in wasdesigned to be done in four
years.
I actually graduated in threeyears.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Okay, a normal load then, I guess.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Pretty close yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
You went through the summers too, as I recall.
Right a normal load then, Iguess Pretty close.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
yeah, you went through the summers too, as I
recall right?
Yes, I worked full-time.
The program I attended was thefirst with a provisional
approval from the ADA, a hybridprogram where it was part online
and part in person.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Okay, you were at Thrivent and I think you were a
paralegal.
Am I pulling this out of thememory bank correctly?
Speaker 1 (14:20):
You're correct.
After I was a business processanalyst, I became a paralegal
and I had enough attorneys atThrivent ask me why I hadn't
gone to law school.
And then this hybrid programwas just getting off the ground
and it allowed me to continueworking and not have to relocate
my family while I went to lawschool.
(14:40):
So it was a perfect storm.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Wow, so you're hustling, working a full load,
taking classes at a full load, amom, a wife all is going on
during these three years years,yes, and one of the semesters my
(15:05):
daughter also had a medicalcrisis, and so I was managing
that for a semester as well.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
How to support her and her need to see specialists
as well as working full time andessentially a full class load.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Wow, so you graduate from law school?
Yes, and what happens next?
Speaker 1 (15:25):
So unfortunately, unfortunately, right this is do
you choose to put the silverlining on something or see it as
a bad thing?
There wasn't space for me atThrivent.
Bad thing there wasn't spacefor me at Thrivent, and so I
ended up working for a businesstransactions law firm for a year
(15:46):
out of college and I'm gratefulfor the experience in that it
helped me define what I didn'twant in my legal career, but it
was not a good space for me.
I realized pretty quickly thatI have a much deeper need to
connect with the people aspectof lawyering and not the
(16:10):
transactional accounting aspectof lawyering.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Okay, and their loss became our gains.
This is where the story getsfun.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
So I'll interject here.
So we were looking to grow ourAppleton office and we had an ad
that you responded to.
I think it was inwisconsinlawyercom, if I'm not
mistaken.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Might've been yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Okay, because I think that's the only thing we were
advertising in back there.
I think it was pre the Indeedera, because I didn't believe in
Indeed back then.
I don't think so.
What year was it or what monthwas it that you joined our team
and then talk through all thenitty-gritty, dirty details of
starting and learning family lawfor the first time, what that
was all like so I'm actuallygoing to go back to the year I
(16:55):
graduated law school.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
I actually had applied and I had followed up
with you and you said so sorry,we're not hiring anymore.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Oh, I rejected you oh man.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
And then the following year, when I was
deciding to part ways with thebusiness transactions firm, I
pulled out my list of all theplaces I had applied.
I just started reaching out topeople.
And I reached out to you andyou said you're in luck, you
know, let's have a phone call.
(17:28):
So there then I.
We talked on the phone and I,the more I researched the firm,
I was really, really intriguedby the process components.
I was hearing the investment insystems, the break the mold by
(17:48):
doing fixed fee.
It was all really intriguing.
It scratched my brain justright as a process person, right
as a process person.
The downside, actually in theinterview process, is when I was
a paralegal I had said if Iever had to do family law I was
going to quit the law.
So I had to keep a really openmind about applying here and
(18:14):
really think about not only whatI wanted for a career, but I
had to really think about myselfand what I needed versus what I
thought I wanted.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Oh, wow, okay, so you had an open mind because you
originally closed off to thiswhole concept of serving people
going through a really hard timein family law.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Exactly.
I'm happy to report it was areally good decision.
I remember within the firstprobably couple of weeks and I
took a stab at a consult.
I thought it was just thegreatest thing.
You know the greatest thing tohave someone in your office for
(18:57):
the first time feeling like theycan unload a burden and tears
stream down their face.
I never thought I would likethat feeling of helping someone
unburdened like that, and now,the more I do it, the more it
just is the most rewarding thingfor me.
(19:17):
Yeah, I think consults are themost rewarding thing for me.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Yeah, I think consults are the best part of
family law.
Personally, I love the consultprocess.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Okay, what month was it that you joined our team?
Speaker 1 (19:28):
September of 2019.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
All right, so you started off no experience
whatsoever in family law.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Can I just add to that I didn't even take family
law as a class in law school.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Okay, so we're starting from square zero, like
this is family court, and you'relearning the very basics of
like no fault divorce, to startthere, right?
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Right right.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Got it In that first year.
To summarize, if you like howdid you get trained?
What was your first year like?
How were your numbers, thatsort of thing.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Yeah, the difficulty in Wisconsin is we know we have
in probably most states right,there's a long runway to get
cases onboarded and get themresolved.
So my first year, first of allI really didn't know what I was
(20:21):
doing but I was trying very hardto observe and ask questions.
I'm very much an experientiallearner.
It's interesting that my careergot on this track because I was
afraid when I was about tograduate from college and didn't
become a band director.
Because now I'm kind of theopposite.
(20:43):
I very much thrive insituations where I'm thrown to
the wolves, so to speak, whereI'm put in a situation where
maybe no one has the answerright, maybe it's a new novel
case concept or we're tryingsomething in a project and no
one's done it before.
Like, I very much thrive inthat space.
(21:06):
I've been, through myexperiences, able to develop a
skill to acknowledge that fearbut continue to work through it,
and so I've really used a lotof that.
My first year, you know, goingto hearings with other attorneys
in our office andself-reflection was a huge thing
(21:30):
, right?
What didn't I like aboutbusiness transactions?
What do I like about family law?
What do I like about family law?
How is this fitting mypersonality and what drives me.
I remember one of the veryfirst hearings I did on my own.
(21:52):
It was a father who hadn't seenhis child in six weeks probably
longer than it might've beensix weeks by the time we
initially did our consult, andeven longer by the time the
first hearing occurred, and itwas around this time of the year
.
And I just remember getting himholiday placement and walking
out of that courtroom.
He didn't even realize what hadhappened and then, when I
(22:15):
explained it to him, the look ofrelief on his face was it just
was such an immense andoverwhelming feeling to be able
to give that gift to someone youknow, that he gets to spend the
holidays with his child afternot seeing them for weeks or
months.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Yeah, wow, and it gives me chills thinking about.
Your first year was COVID year,so we're talking 2020.
So that was an odd year allaround, right, so yes.
If you reflect on that year, doyou recall I'm trying to give
the audience some context of howyou've made the jumps over the
years.
Yeah, and by the way, just foreveryone's knowledge, we really
(22:56):
track three different metricshere.
We track our lawyers, we trackour collections, which is an
indicator of efficiency and soforth, and we track our
performance in the consult roomand we track our client
satisfaction scores.
So as you look back, I knowit's four years, we're 24 right
now, but as you look back in 20,do you recall kind of how that
first year shook out?
Speaker 1 (23:16):
As you look back, in 20, do you recall kind of how
that first year shook out.
I was really happy with mycollections, numbers, nps.
I at the time I'm going to behonest I ignored.
I didn't think it was somethingI could actually influence.
What was the what's?
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Our consult rate.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Oh, consult rate.
That was hard during COVIDbecause we had so many people
contact us for consults thatwere in really bad living
situations.
But because of COVID, becauseof the financial effects, I felt
pretty powerless to help themand I think I don't remember
(24:00):
what the numbers were, but Iseem to recall that there was.
I mean, it just had an effecton every business, I think
including ours.
People were hesitant to pullthe trigger on filing for
divorce during COVID.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Yeah, it was especially during those months
of April, May and June, RightInto the year.
It kind of swung back a littlebit, as I recall.
So that was your first fullyear learning family law.
We get into 21.
And do you recall how thingswent for you that year?
Speaker 1 (24:29):
21,.
I did extremely well, if Irecall correctly.
Well, if I recall correctly, by2021, I think that was the
first year I had the highestcollections in the firm.
It was either 21 or 22.
As you and I know, the otherattorney in our office, who is
(24:51):
extremely competitive, had beenrunning numbers all year and
here's me just trying to keepgetting through the day because
I'm still learning my job and hewas, I think, quite shocked
when he ran the year-end numbersbecause no one had projected it
and I wasn't paying attention.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Hello, jeff, here, my team and I have built a family
law practice resource website atjsterlinghughescom.
That's jsterlinghughescom, andit is loaded with all kinds of
information and downloads andeducational content to help you
build the family law practice ofyour dreams.
(25:32):
So, if you haven't, please goto my website, subscribe to the
newsletter and I promise eachweek I'll send you valuable
content that will help you builda beautiful law firm, as well
as share with you news anddevelopments happening around
the United States that impactthe practice of family law.
Okay, so that was Jeff Murrell.
Now, I had him on as a guest acouple months ago I don't know,
(25:55):
seven or eight months ago wherehe crossed the million dollar
threshold.
You now have crossed, orbumping right into the 1.3.
So you've blown his numbers outof the water, and so let's just
kind of cut right to the chase.
And how in the world do you dothat?
Talk about your processes, yourstaffing.
How big is your staffing thatsupports you?
(26:17):
How do you handle consults andall that?
Because you're doing thisyou're not as a part of a lawyer
team.
You're doing this on your ownas a lawyer, with support
teammates.
So how do you do it?
Speaker 1 (26:27):
Right right Right now .
Our model is that we havepeople to manage people not on
my team.
So I want to be upfront aboutthat.
I do spend time managing theteam, but I'm not responsible
for, or directly responsible for, hiring, firing and performance
(26:47):
plans, that sort of thing.
On my team I have one full-timeparalegal, a bit unique in the
firm in that she is assigned tome full-time.
She does not support any otherattorneys in our firm.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
What's her name?
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Olivia.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Olivia okay.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
And then we just started piloting about.
Within the last six months,we've been developing and
piloting a virtual legalassistant role, who is Bing, so
these two people support me fulltime.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
So Bing is in the Philippines and Olivia is there
with you locally in Appleton.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Okay, and have these two ladies been with you all
year?
I know Bing just recently, asin a few months ago joined your
team, but Olivia has been withyou all year.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Yes, she started on my team.
I think we just had our twoyear anniversary or it's this
month, sometime working together.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Yeah, got it.
Okay.
And outside of that direct likeserving, helping you on your
team is just those two ladies.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Obviously, we have a marketing team and we have an
intake team and all that, butRight and I I occasionally get
help or leverage help from twoassociates on our team If
there's a good learningopportunity, or it's pretty rare
that they would cover anyhearings for me or, you know,
start to finish, handle any taskfor me.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Okay, so what is a day in the life or a week in the
life of Tiffany?
Look like.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
I think the biggest thing is figure out when you are
going to have desk time toprepare where you're not being
interrupted.
Desk time to prepare whereyou're not being interrupted.
People on our team like topoint out that they think I keep
crazy hours.
My desk time largely, is beforethe workday begins, because I
(28:46):
want to be able to start withthe task that is the most
difficult really needs to becompleted Anything that is
urgent carryover from the daybefore.
One thing I've implemented withmy team in fact, we got out of
the habit of it.
We're getting back in the habitof it.
(29:07):
I just sent a message to themtoday Think about your frogs.
So I know there are lots of,lots of podcasts and good
materials about eating your frogone bite at a time.
So always creating awarenesswithin your team.
Every person should have a frog.
What's the thing you'reprocrastinating?
What's the thing that, if done,would lift the brain weight?
Speaker 2 (29:32):
So in free up space so that we can do other things
plus keep clients happy yeah,you're referring to the, the
metaphor of eat the frog first,because it's the worst, grossest
thing you'll do of the day yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
I think I said one bite at a time I I'm notorious
for getting one bite at a time,as long as you eat it first.
Right, you got to eat it firstone bite at a time.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
I guess if you've got a big enough goal you know goal
, like me, but okay, so Iinterrupt you.
You're talking about theprinciple of the grossest thing
you have to do, the thing youwere putting off and you
procrastinate the most on.
You do that first, you and yourteam.
Yes, Trying to just instillthat as like the ethos of how
your team operates.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
Yes, and in fact sometimes when I can tell
there's procrastinationoccurring, either myself or
someone on my team I don't evenhave to say anything.
I just go grab a picture of afrog off the Internet and send
that to someone.
That's either me committing thatI'm not leaving work until I've
eaten my frog and if Iprocrastinated all day, well I
(30:37):
guess that means I'm eatingdinner late that night or my
team knows when they get that,like that's my check in to see
where they are on the task thatthey've committed to completing
that day.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Do you have a sense, Tiffany, of how many files
you've closed in 2024?
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Probably around the 200 mark.
Would that be about, right, youthink?
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Probably.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Okay From a standpoint of consults, because
when people see your performance, the immediate reaction is, oh,
she must work 95 hours a week.
Immediate reaction is, oh, shemust work 95 hours a week and
every client's pissed off at herbecause she has no time to
spend with any of them, which isabsolutely not true on both
counts.
So I don't want to drill intothose and be real about them.
(31:25):
Of course I don't want to likecandy coat anything here.
So, standpoint of how youmanage that many files with your
team I mean fixed fee is a bigpart of it.
Right, because you're notrequired to grind hours.
You're trying, you're requiredto grind out results and if that
happens on a time or a longamount of time.
So, starting with the consults,how many consults are you
(31:46):
taking?
Are you going through theconsult for all of those
individuals, those clients, orhow does that work?
Speaker 1 (31:52):
I think that's another great call out of
someone who's not directly on myteam but I directly benefit
from.
So I do a combination of my ownconsults and then also receive
handoffs, primarily from ourconsult team and I know, going
into next year.
I've looked at, you know, thecost to me of doing my own
(32:17):
consults versus that team andthe benefit of having that team
continue to do the consults forme outweighs the time I would
invest.
Now I'm still working with mycurrent team.
So, being in Olivia to maximizemy calendar time so that I can
do both.
(32:37):
Right, I want my pipeline asopen as possible by doing as
many of my own consults whilestill serving my current clients
, plus getting those handoffsfrom our consult team.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Okay, you're referring to our consult legal
assistants who and it's blendedit's about a 50-50 ratio right
now of the total consults ourfirm does.
Half of them is done bynon-lawyers on our CLA team and
half of them are done by ourlawyers.
Roughly it flows and goes 60-40some weeks, but in that range.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Right.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
And some of them are doing the consult, passing the
client over to you once theclient funds Right and meeting
them.
Okay, got it.
And so in a given week, howmany consults are you doing
personally?
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Well, my plan going into the busy season you know
it's December, it's not a greatindicator because our consults
tend to be lighter this time ofyear.
To be lighter this time of year, but going into our busy season
.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
so February, march, april, I would shoot for eight
to 10 consults a week, if I canswing it with my caseload and
court appearances, okay, andeach consult requires about how
much time to prep.
Do the consult?
Post-consult notes what doesthat look like?
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Always looking for efficiency.
On that, I know.
When I talked with Jeff Morrellhe seems to think close to
three hours.
I think that's really long.
I think probably an hour and ahalf prep time time in the
consult follow-ups, afterwardsfollow-ups with our consult
legal assistants.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Okay, so you invest about an hour and a half time
total ish, right, I know itvaries between clients with your
initial consult.
So if you're doing eight to 10,so that's going to require
about 15 hours a week, right,okay, in a given week and I'm
all time now, all the all thetime you spent consults, doing
legal work, doing stuff we askyou to do, that doesn't show up,
(34:37):
right?
How much time of that are youworking in a given week?
Speaker 1 (34:41):
I would say, if I looked at that across the entire
year, I actually don't work asmany hours as what it might seem
.
I'm probably in the 50 to 60hour range.
Of course, you know January.
I know I have a ton of trialsscheduled.
I'm going to be working more.
I'm already planning ahead forthat.
(35:02):
But then in the summer you'llhave legs where you know maybe
I'm working 40 hours and I'mleaving early on a Friday
because I can.
I think this is reallyimportant.
I take vacation.
I've been bad about it the lastyear and a half, but it is
something that I'm reallycommitted to doing taking
vacation and not being available.
(35:24):
My staff knows how to get ahold of me if there's truly
something urgent, and I alwaystell them the same thing when I
leave the office.
If you can get a hold of me,then I'll answer the phone.
But I'm very intentional abouttaking trips where frequently
there isn't access.
There isn't phone access orinternet access.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
for that reason, so this year how much vacation time
did you take?
Speaker 1 (35:48):
This year was a bit of an odd year because of
personal stuff going on, but Idid, throughout the summer,
block my calendar on Fridaysalmost through the entire summer
, and so I would work maybe fora few hours in the morning and
then take the rest of the dayand go hiking or leave early for
(36:09):
a weekend, that sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
Okay.
So in fairness, you have apretty heavy load.
You don't take a ton of time,working about 50 to 60 hours a
week.
So that's just you're.
You're grinding, no question.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Yeah, I mean I.
Again.
I want to say that this isn't anormal year for me.
I don't anticipate that I willtake no vacation this year.
It was truly because of somepersonal things going on that I
wasn't able to take as muchvacation.
I wasn't able to invest thehours during my working weeks
that I normally would have tobalance out the vacation that I
(36:45):
would have preferred to take.
But I did in August take.
You know I took a week vacationand went to California to visit
some friends, so I do taketruly time away.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Okay.
So I want to switch over andtalk about the systems that
you've built for yourself thatyou can kind of maybe help our
audience understand.
In some ways they can injectthat into their practice.
You talk about this idea ofeating the frog first and doing
the worst task of the day in thebeginning, because it lifts the
mental weight that you'recarrying, dreading having to do
(37:19):
it.
So you put it off, put it off,put it off and you spend half
your day thinking about notdoing it right.
What else do you do?
Speaker 1 (37:26):
The other thing I do and we tested something over the
summer that was different thanthis and I didn't like it.
It and we're going back to theoriginal process.
The moment that we are retainedon a case, I am tasking certain
things that are that meet the80-20 rule.
(37:46):
What I mean by that is, ifyou're doing a divorce, you have
to file the divorce.
You have to do a financialdisclosure statement.
You're going to have eithermediation or a GAL appointed.
Do you need an appraisal Right?
These are all things.
I know from the consult what thetrajectory of a case is.
We have to do a maritalsettlement agreement and a
(38:09):
property division worksheet,child support calculations and
final documents divisionworksheet, child support
calculations and final documents.
I task that at the beginning ofa case.
We move deadlines, we assignthe tasks between teammates, but
I want to get those all outthere, because then when we're
talking about a case, we're notthinking about just the thing
(38:32):
we're working on right now.
We're thinking about final docs.
When do I need that?
How do we get there?
So there's always this bigpicture for the cases when are
we?
How do we get to the end?
And it's great because we don'thave oversight.
(38:53):
We're not forgetting to dofinal docs and showing up for a
court hearing without them.
We're not, you know, having acase sit for weeks or months
because the client's not barkingat me and I don't have a task
for a marital settlementagreement.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
So putting that all in there, You're tasking marital
settlement agreement right atthe beginning.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
I task it right at the beginning.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Okay, wow Okay.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
So, like here in Wisconsin, we have a four month
waiting period, so that's veryrare to start on that document
day one or day week one.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
I'm not starting it.
I'm creating the task, but Itypically put it out about 90
days.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Yeah, and again, if we're not at a point of drafting
that 90 days, then I'm having aconversation with my team.
What do we need to do to get tothe point where we're drafting
that?
So what this firm does a reallygood job of is giving us a
system to manage tasks, and sowhat I try and do is think about
each client as a project.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Right, and if you are doing a project plan like you
think about an IT project plan,and you're only writing the next
step in programming, you'velost sight of you know what's
your deliverable, what are yourobjectives.
And so I really try and take myexperience, having worked on IT
(40:20):
projects and having clearobjectives, deliverables, a
clear project plan beginning toend, and bring that to this
space.
How do I, for you, know?
Speaker 2 (40:38):
space.
How do I, for you, know clientJohn Doe, what is his project
plan?
Yeah, so when you say task,that's another way of just
saying scheduling out these jobsto happen at a certain time, so
it all syncs up and comestogether when you need it to.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Yeah, and one of the things I want to point out here
that you're exceptionally goodat is this concept of practicing
with a proactive mindset.
So you take the initiative inevery one of these cases.
You're the one that drives theagenda, pushes them along In
some cases, I'm sure, even morethan the courts do.
You're pushing toward aresolution from the very minute
(41:09):
you get a hold of that case.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Exactly.
Yeah, I'm not waiting for thecourt.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
So in fixed fee, that's a key factor, isn't it To
be proactive?
Because you're not paid for thetime in the case, you're paid
for the result you deliver tothe clients.
That's your deliverable,exactly Out of the court system.
That's what they want.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
So all of your systems that you've built in
your practice they start withthis concept of you're treating
every case like a project.
You've done these same projectsover and over again, so you've
really boiled it down to theessence and you'll schedule out
that whole project the day youget the case.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
There are exceptions, right, but I'm not building a
process for 100% of the variable, the variability.
I'm building it for 80%.
So we have cases where I'mgetting retained late in a case
and I need access to the casefile before I can come up with
the project plan.
But, generally speaking, thisis how I approach every case.
(42:08):
Even when I'm retained late, Iwant to get to that point where
I can tell the client I'vethought about where we are now,
where you want to be, and how weget there.
What are those steps?
Speaker 2 (42:21):
So let's talk about delegation, because you couldn't
do what you do without a reallystrong team and Olivia is a
stud, I mean.
So let's just acknowledge thatright up front.
What is your philosophy andapproach toward delegation?
How much of it do you do?
How much are you holding on totiffany?
Because I know a lot of lawyershave a really difficult time
letting go of some of thelanguaging, for the msa, for
(42:43):
example, and I know some won'tlet even their assistant do the
financials, which is right,silly, but they.
That happens quite a bit.
So what's your philosophy?
Speaker 1 (42:52):
well my background is is actually another piece here
where I feel very fortunate tohave had background as a
paralegal in a very largecompany for 10 years.
I worked very autonomously butunder the supervision of an
attorney, and there was always alot of research done in that
(43:12):
corporate setting about exactlywhat paralegals could and
couldn't do.
What does it mean to besupervised?
And I brought that with me toour practice here.
So I am one of these attorneyswho is always challenging the
paralegals to expand theirdefinition of what it means to
(43:36):
practice law, because I thinkthat there's still more
opportunity to be had in thisspace.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
Wow Okay.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
I am not someone who wants to own things.
I just was talking with afriend of mine this week and
they said I come across as sodetail-oriented.
I said, actually the detailscause a friend of mine this week
and they said I come across asso detail oriented.
I said, actually the detailscause a lot of anxiety for me
because I am a big picturethinker.
I'm this, you know, big picture, strategic thinker, and so when
(44:06):
I think about tasks that I candelegate to my paralegal we've
had conversations I'm thestrategic thinker.
I need you to be detailoriented.
If I draft something, assume ithas typos in it.
It was one of the reasons goingback to why am I not in
business transactions, becausethat requires a level of detail
(44:28):
orientation that's difficult forme, and so having those open
dialogues with your team aboutwhat each person's strengths and
weaknesses are is reallyimportant.
And I think the other thing toothat I have always been very
clear with my team my job is notto make your job harder, my job
(44:53):
is to make your job easier andserve the clients better, and so
I have tried very hard todevelop a team where they are
very willing to bring mefeedback, where I encourage
feedback, where, when we haveteam meetings, I'm bringing a
(45:14):
list of where, when we have teammeetings, I'm bringing a list
of hey, can we try this processimprovement?
And they're bringing a listwith additional process
improvements and we're creatingthis constant dialogue about
what moves the needle.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
That's so hard to get my head around, because if
you're constantly improving yourprocesses, you can do less work
for more result over and overagain, but it takes a special
thinker and a discipline to staywith that.
So do you have any tricks ormethodologies that you follow to
do that?
Speaker 1 (45:42):
I think the biggest thing is, well, two things.
So I am not someone who likesto try.
Technology is my first go-to.
That is one area where JeffMorell and I we are
complimentary He'll trytechnology right away.
(46:03):
And I'm more about efficienciesand other ways people
management, client management,those sorts of things.
So for me it's more aboutfinding the problem.
I'll give an example Yesterdaywe had a team meeting and I said
hey, we're struggling.
(46:25):
When we're supposed to befinalizing a financial
disclosure statement ahead of atemporary order hearing, Clients
aren't responding to our emails, I'm not getting the document
soon enough to be able toprepare for my prep hearing call
with the client, which meansI'm creating a bottleneck and
getting their financial approvedand submitted to the court.
(46:46):
And I brought some ideas tothat meeting and we talked about
it and we came up with apotential solution.
I think the biggest thing is isyou have to take time to
reflect on your day.
What went well, what didn't gowell?
Where do you think there's roomfor improvement?
(47:09):
Right, Right, you have to maketime for it and for me it's
natural to do that.
That is something I think abouton the drive home from work.
What went well, what didn't gowell.
Where is there room forimprovement?
If it's not natural to you, youhave to schedule time for that.
Speaker 2 (47:28):
Yeah, I agree with you.
You have to be totallyintentional, because I don't
naturally do that.
I'm go go go and it doesn'ttake a ton of time just to
reflect back and say, okay, Ineed to adjust here.
If you do one adjustment a day,that gets you 1% better man,
that's incredible results overtime.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Right.
Speaker 2 (47:45):
Tiffany, on the delegation side, what things do
you not delegate?
So let's kind of start withthat list.
Now, we know, obviously, you'regoing to court, so we're not
sending paralegals to court.
All right, you're giving theadvice to the client, but
there's a whole lot more infamily law other than that,
those two things.
Is there anything else that youjust simply will not delegate?
Speaker 1 (48:05):
I don't like the words will not.
Can you tell?
I think the things that wouldbe very difficult to delegate,
but I would never say never ifthere's, because I'm always
thinking about how do weleverage staff more, right, yeah
, I think the thing that isdifficult to delegate is any
(48:31):
task that the client needs theinterface with the attorney for
their confidence in the firm andin the job that we're doing.
So what I mean by that is ifthe client has a urgent safety
concern, our paralegals aregreat.
(48:53):
Our paralegals will talk tothem, but they want to talk with
an attorney.
I could give a script to aparalegal, but it's not going to
be received and have the samecalming effect for the client as
if I deliver it myself Ofcourse.
Speaker 2 (49:07):
Yeah, Just there, though, I can tell you're
delegating part of thatresponsibility.
You're like I set the table foryou.
You're able to deliver thatconfidence and affirm them and
encourage them and support themand love on them and all that.
But it's the whole setup andall that that you're doing parts
of that.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Right, right, and that's a good point too, too.
So one thing I do when I'mfirst, so I was talking about
what's my I have this projectplan right.
The first thing the clientreceives from me via email is an
email that says here's who I am, here's who my team is, here's
how you get a hold of us.
And in that email I include alink that the clients are
(49:48):
encouraged to use anytime.
They don't need permission fromme.
They can click on it andschedule 15 minutes with me.
So that's helpful upfront, thatI'm giving them my entire
team's contact information.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
You move past that pretty quick.
That's a key thing you'rementioning there.
You give your clients a link,but anytime they want to talk to
Tiffany, they can go on thatlink and they can schedule 15
minutes on your calendar and itpops up.
You give it rules, right, ofcourse, but what's the
utilization for that for clients?
How many are doing this?
Speaker 1 (50:22):
I would say probably half or more.
It depends how tech savvy theyare.
My older clients want to reachout to the paralegal and
schedule through the paralegal,which they can also do.
My more tech savvy clients, youknow they might schedule a 15
minute meeting with me everycouple of weeks just to do a
(50:42):
check in, especially if we'rewaiting on things like waiting
on a valuation or appraisal, oryou know, they're waiting on
their mediation date and thatsort of thing.
The clients who use it reallylike it.
It's a little frustrating forthem, I think sometimes if I
don't have availability like ifI have a trial coming up my
(51:04):
calendar tends to be full andit's hard for them to find a
time.
But that's not the only waythat they can reach out to me
and I also let them know.
So it's set up for 15 minutes.
They need more time than 15minutes.
They can ask for that.
They just can't schedule thatthemselves.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
Wow, that's a good parameter there.
Ok, wow, that's a goodparameter there.
(51:49):
Okay, you earlier this year ourfirm and really kind of coming
out of last year put a lot ofemphasis around shifting our
focus from being a marketing andHolly and all of the senior
partners really kind of steppedinto some of these roles and
you've responded incredibly wellhere.
You've done some incrediblethings with your client
satisfaction and so forth and Iasked you before our call here
like, how have you done that tosuch a high level?
And you really you use thewords behavior modification when
it comes to client service.
I'd love for you to unpack thatfor our audience.
(52:10):
One and two practical steps.
I know this calendar linking isone of them, which is a
brilliant idea, because I knowthat probably gives clients a
whole lot of just satisfactionand comfort.
Hey, I want to talk to Tiffany.
I can always get on a calendar.
So what have you done?
Speaker 1 (52:24):
behaviorally modification it's not like
you're a dog or something likethat, and I like how you put
that, but what have you done?
One of the things I did isnumber one.
You really have to take thetime to reflect on yourself.
We talk as family law attorneys.
How many times a day am Iasking a client if they're
(52:44):
seeing a therapist, if theywould like a referral to a
therapist, suggesting that theirkids get in therapy?
And I wasn't taking the time toactually do that myself.
And this is a really stressfuljob.
And the reason I bring this upis because I was able to a
(53:05):
combination of working with mymanager and saying, okay, the
segment of the population that Idon't want.
Another one of these clientswas middle-aged men.
I had a really hard time.
I had a hard time relating tothem.
I had biases against them andthe things that they were
(53:27):
telling me.
I didn't feel like I hadanything I could relate to or in
common with them.
I really struggled in meetingtheir needs.
They were frequently the onesthat were very dissatisfied with
the service that I wasproviding.
So I unpacked that in therapy,quite frankly, and realized that
(53:50):
there were things in my pastthat I needed to deal with where
this particular population wasa trigger for me.
In addition to that, I workedwith my manager to say OK, this
is the population I have thehardest time addressing.
Let's come up with a game planon how I'm going to better serve
these people.
Speaker 2 (54:12):
Wow, do you remember what that plan was?
Speaker 1 (54:21):
Yeah.
So, number one, I had a veryshort temper with these people,
quite frankly, and so one of thethings I do now is just
acknowledge it in a phone call,right.
So one of the things I do nowis just acknowledge it in a
phone call, right.
When my client, and especiallythis population, is getting
escalated in how they'recommunicating with me, I just
call it out and I'm really calmabout it.
I wait for a pause in theconversation and I'll just say
(54:42):
you know, I hear the stress inyour voice.
I know you're frustrated.
I just want to let you knowthat you know I'm feeling stress
and anxiety for you.
I just want to bring thetemperature down a little bit
Because if we continue toescalate and I'm matching your
(55:03):
energy we're not going to beable to accomplish what we need,
and I'm here to support you.
So it was finding a differentway to communicate with this
group of people that I felt likeI could not relate to, figuring
out how to communicate withthem differently, how to
(55:23):
deescalate in the moment, andhow important a pause in the
conversation can be.
That is, it's super powerful,and maybe you know, maybe it's a
male attorney working withmiddle-aged female mothers and
having a hard time relating.
I don't know what it's going tobe for each attorney listening
(55:44):
to this podcast.
But figure out who thepopulation is that you have the
most difficult time serving andreally keep asking yourself the
question why, why am Istruggling to serve that
population?
And then I think once youfigure out the why, the steps to
resolve that then becomeclearer and then it's just a
(56:07):
matter of practice.
So part of why I identifiedthis population as well, um, is
because I figured if I couldmove the needle for them, then I
would be able to move theneedle for every client okay, so
it's like another big versionof eat the frog figure, that
population, yeah, wow.
Speaker 2 (56:26):
So I'm a middle-aged guy, definitely, so I'm going to
be listening.
I'm going to be listening forthese uh soothing strategies you
have whenever you and I talkgoing forward.
You know, you just divulge yoursecrets to me right, I know so
from a behavior modificationthat seemed like you're the
biggest lever that you pulled tohave these big, vast
(56:46):
improvements over the course ofa while and maybe therapy isn't
the thing for everyone.
Speaker 1 (56:52):
Um, it was for me, I.
I needed that because I neededsomeone else to reflect back to
me what I wasn't, what I didn'thave the self-awareness to
identify in myself.
If you're someone who's can dothat work on your own, I mean,
certainly you could avoid theneed for therapy.
But it was really critical forme.
Speaker 2 (57:11):
Yeah, I'm a big believer in therapy.
I've done my share of time onthe couch.
Speaker 1 (57:16):
Right.
Speaker 2 (57:18):
All right.
So for the sake of time, I'veasked you a whole lot of
questions about how you did itlast year.
Is there anything I'm notasking you that you feel like
would just be that gold nuggetyou would pass on to help other
attorneys have some of theefficiency successes that you've
had?
Speaker 1 (57:32):
I really just would reiterate self-awareness, asking
questions, be curious, be aconstant learner.
Those are skills that are sohard to teach, but I do believe
they are teachable and I believethat those set the foundation
(57:56):
for having a really successfulpractice and being a really
successful attorney.
Speaker 2 (58:01):
Wow, thank you so much.
It's been a great conversation.
I appreciate your time today.
Speaker 1 (58:05):
Yeah.
So what this firm does a really good job of is
giving us a system to managetasks, and so what I try and do
is think about each client as aproject.
Yeah Right, and if you aredoing a project plan, like you
think about an IT project plan,and you're only writing the next
step in programming, you'velost sight of you know what's
(00:24):
your deliverable, what are yourobjectives.
And so I really try and take myexperience, having worked on IT
projects and having clearobjectives, deliverables, a
clear project plan, beginning toend.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Well, hello and welcome to the Jay Sterling
Hughes Show, where we share howwe have built our family law
firm from zero to 25 plusattorneys and 15 million in
revenue, all in the past 10years, and my purpose here is to
document what's working andwhat's not working, with hopes
that you can take that and youcan recontextualize it and
shorten your success curve.
I'm your host, jeff Hughes, andtoday's show I have a guest
(01:06):
with me, tiffany Vogel, andTiffany is annually our top
performer here at SterlingLawyers and we have an
incredible conversation comingup.
So Tiffany's one of ourpartners.
Let me just like spin Tiffany'san extended intro here, because
there is a wealth of nuggetsand great information to share
(01:26):
with our audience here that Iwant to tease out what you're
going to be sharing here becauseit's really, really good.
So Tiffany's one of ourpartners.
In our Appleton office, whichis a one of a small metro area
here in Wisconsin, in the northcentral part of the state.
She is going to talk about howshe has collected now listen to
this just shy of $1.3 millionthis year in 2024.
(01:49):
So we're recording this onDecember 13th of 24.
So the year's not quite over,but she's going to end up
somewhere close or just shy of1.3, which is incredible A for
anyone to do that in a year inany metro, but to do it in a
tiny metro of Appleton,wisconsin, is incredible.
And so Tiffany is an amazingattorney who has learned how to
(02:10):
create an efficient,team-centered practice.
So what you're going to behearing about is a couple things
here.
One is that I rememberinterviewing Tiffany back in
2019.
When she interviewed and aftershe came on board within about a
year, the light bulb went onfor me.
Her hiring and her performancehelped me understand the perfect
bullseye target for our hiringprocesses for lawyers.
(02:32):
She came in with some lifeexperience, very hungry, chip on
her shoulder, wanting to proveherself, and a combination of
those things are what really welook for in a lot of our new
hires, because that has been aformula for a lot of success for
our firm.
So she's going to talk aboutthat.
You're going to hear a lotabout how she has built a very
(02:54):
efficient practice.
She has two full-time supportstaffs.
One is here in Appleton, theother one is based out of the
Philippines, and she leveragesteammates.
They have great communicationbased out of the Philippines and
she leverages teammates.
They have great communicationand they have a philosophy that
they follow together and theyhold each other accountable
around the idea of eat the frogfirst.
So the frog is the mostdisgusting, gross thing and they
want to eat it first.
So you're going to hear aboutthat.
(03:15):
Another thing that our firm isfocused on in 2024 has been
shifting all of our ideology andphilosophy around client
service.
We want to be incredible,extraordinary at that.
That requires changesthroughout the whole firm and
Tiffany has been in the vanguardof that and has really
responded and has become anexceptional client server.
And I asked her about that inour pre-call, our warmup here,
(03:38):
and she didn't want to call itwhat I want to call it, which is
kind of like a clientsatisfaction.
She called it behavioralmodification on her end.
So she looked at it from astandpoint of what do I own and
what can I change, and so sheshares something in our podcast
today about behavioralmodification and she picked one
specific thing on how she servesone population which is adult,
(04:00):
middle-aged male guys like me,and how she had to shift her
thinking to do that and it madea world of difference because it
trickled out to every otheraspect of her client service.
So you don't want to miss thatpart of the podcast either,
because that is terrific.
We spent a fair amount of timetalking about how does she look
at a client as a project andthat kind of desensitized a
(04:21):
little bit.
She doesn't take the empathyand the human connection out of
it.
No, no, no.
What she does is she looks atevery case like a project and
she schedules that out in thebeginning, which enables her to
create a very efficient,proactive-based practice which
pushes cases along, which, bythe way, the clients really want
they want to be out of courtsystem.
She's identified that knows howto do that for them.
So you're going to hear how shegoes about doing that.
(04:43):
You're going to hear about herphilosophy around delegation
things that she won't and can'tdelegate, how she manages those
and how she's constantly lookingon a daily basis which is crazy
to think about on a daily basishow can she improve that
delegation interaction with herteam?
And then there's one reallycool idea that she shares about
she uses a link, gives all ofher clients a link in the very
(05:05):
beginning of her time with themwhere they can schedule 15
minutes with her, which, morethan anything, gives peace of
mind and comfort to clients andsome other ideas and strategies
she shares.
So, tiffany, I have like goneway beyond my typical intro time
and I've probably, you know,consumed a lot here, made you
blush a little bit.
But thank you for coming on theshow today and sharing with us
how you've had such an amazingsuccess this year.
(05:26):
And let's start off with theTiffany story.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
So I was actually born in a suburb of San
Francisco, but over the courseof my first couple of years my
parents relocated back toAppleton, where they were
originally from, and the reasonthey relocated here is because
both my parents were from here.
We have strong family roots,all our family is here, and my
(05:54):
mom was pregnant with myyoungest sister.
So ever since then my parentshave lived in the exact same
house.
I don't know that they'll eversell it.
They talk about retiring andmoving, but we've been here ever
since.
So I started at UW Fox Valley,which is closing this year.
(06:15):
Actually, I did my first yearof college there with the intent
that I was going to collect asmany majors as possible Like a
lifelong student sort of.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Thing.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
What was that?
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Like a lifelong student sort of mentality.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Absolutely.
That's been me since day one.
I've always had a really stronginterest in science, art or the
arts I should say primarilymusic and always been a really
strong writer and so just hadway too many interests to be
contained by any one major.
So I went to UW-Fox my firstyear and then I transferred to
(07:02):
UW-Stevens Point.
I went there.
The only reason I finallydecided it was time to leave
college is because they onlygive you student aid or did at
the time for so many years and Iwas no longer going to have
student aid to.
Had intended to study to be aband director, but I panicked
(07:30):
because I did not feel it wasappropriate to put an early
20-something-year-old in chargeof other people's children, and
I had a lot of anxiety aroundthat.
So at that time in my life myfear of failure was driving my
decision making.
(07:50):
It's something that's reallyreally difficult to overcome,
but I think it comes withexperience and practice,
deciding that what you want foryour life is, you know, having
that long-term vision and andknowing that the fear is
momentary, it is a moment intime, right, it's not going to
(08:12):
stay forever.
So then I ended up working foran insurance, a travel insurance
company at that time I thinkthey're actually owned by AIG
now and then worked there for ayear, managed call center while
I was there, moved back toAppleton after that year.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
So Appleton is a city of what size is for our
audience to get a view of?
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Appleton, I think we're right around 80,000, but
then we have a lot ofsurrounding communities.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
The whole area.
I mean it's not very big, acouple hundred thousand people
total, right.
Right, I would agree, yeah, sowe're talking small, small towns
, central Wisconsin, right, allto the earth people.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Yes, and Stevens Point is even smaller than that.
When I attended Stevens Point,I think the permanent population
was around 23,000.
And then there were acombination of 5,000 to 8,000,
if I remember, students andother more transient people in
(09:22):
that town.
So quite small.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Yeah, all right, so I interrupted you, so pick up
where I interrupted you at.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Yeah, so I ended up back in Appleton.
I worked for a mail machinecompany in a call center.
One of the most fun things Idid there was we worked in a pod
of two people and I worked inthe inbound call center.
So we were taking calls onaccounts and my pod teammate and
(09:54):
I decided that our jobs werekind of boring and that we
wanted to add a little friendlycompetition and so we started a
weekly competition to see whocould by luck of the draw, just
random, whichever calls you get,but if there was a past due
account, who could collect themost money on past due accounts.
(10:16):
Okay, so I think this sets upthe type of personality I have
in that you know we're going tolook for these, these
characteristics and futurelawyers that we hire.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
By the way, right Proves our here.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Right.
So he won once, I think, butgenerally I was the winner
because I was really determinedto collect on these accounts.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
And about what year was this, Tiffany?
Speaker 1 (10:47):
That would have been 2002-ish, Okay Long long before
I went to law school.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
So we're getting there, but after I left, that
After the music andenvironmental ethics major.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, myundergraduate degree was
complete at that point.
Actually, I'll go back for justa second to that.
I had a double major music andenvironmental ethics.
I was maybe a class or two shyof getting a biology, chemistry
and French minor.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Oh my goodness.
Okay, three minors plus twodoubles.
Yeah, a double Okay.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
A double yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Okay, um, after I left Pitney Bowes I went which
was the mail machine company Iwent to work for Thrivent, which
is a fortune 500 company.
They're unique in that they'rea fraternal, so you have to have
membership criteria and peoplewho purchase insurance from them
(11:55):
have to meet meet thatmembership criteria.
Learned a ton at that job.
So there I started in the callcenter again, worked my way into
a back office position called abusiness process analyst, so
someone who writes and evaluatesprocedures, works with the
system team on developingsystems, with the system team on
(12:22):
developing systems, interfaceswith the staff when they have
questions or they need certaintypes of approvals, that sort of
thing.
So that job and actually I'llgo back even further.
So that job was very processdriven.
I didn't mention that my motherowned a sewing business for a
lot of years and so from themoment I could hold a pair of
(12:45):
scissors and operate a sewingmachine, I worked for her and
that job was extremely processdriven as well and we were paid
on production.
So all the way back to latemiddle school and high school, I
was working for my mom doingtasks.
I mean the task was based on myage and my ability, but always
(13:09):
focused on how can I be asefficient with my time as
possible and make as much moneyas possible, while still
producing the quality of goodsthat were required for her to
maintain accounts that she hadwith large companies yeah,
interesting.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
So we're foreshadowing some of this
process driven mentality thatyou've brought into the practice
yes, so you decide to go off tolaw school, and what year was
that that you entered law school?
So you decided to go off to lawschool, and what year was that
that you entered law school?
Speaker 1 (13:38):
2015.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
And you were part time, if I recall right.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
When you went Somewhere between full time and
part time.
So the program I was in wasdesigned to be done in four
years.
I actually graduated in threeyears.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Okay, a normal load then, I guess.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Pretty close yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
You went through the summers too, as I recall.
Right a normal load then, Iguess Pretty close.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
yeah, you went through the summers too, as I
recall right?
Yes, I worked full-time.
The program I attended was thefirst with a provisional
approval from the ADA, a hybridprogram where it was part online
and part in person.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Okay, you were at Thrivent and I think you were a
paralegal.
Am I pulling this out of thememory bank correctly?
Speaker 1 (14:20):
You're correct.
After I was a business processanalyst, I became a paralegal
and I had enough attorneys atThrivent ask me why I hadn't
gone to law school.
And then this hybrid programwas just getting off the ground
and it allowed me to continueworking and not have to relocate
my family while I went to lawschool.
(14:40):
So it was a perfect storm.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Wow, so you're hustling, working a full load,
taking classes at a full load, amom, a wife all is going on
during these three years years,yes, and one of the semesters my
(15:05):
daughter also had a medicalcrisis, and so I was managing
that for a semester as well.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
How to support her and her need to see specialists
as well as working full time andessentially a full class load.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Wow, so you graduate from law school?
Yes, and what happens next?
Speaker 1 (15:25):
So unfortunately, unfortunately, right this is do
you choose to put the silverlining on something or see it as
a bad thing?
There wasn't space for me atThrivent.
Bad thing there wasn't spacefor me at Thrivent, and so I
ended up working for a businesstransactions law firm for a year
(15:46):
out of college and I'm gratefulfor the experience in that it
helped me define what I didn'twant in my legal career, but it
was not a good space for me.
I realized pretty quickly thatI have a much deeper need to
connect with the people aspectof lawyering and not the
(16:10):
transactional accounting aspectof lawyering.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Okay, and their loss became our gains.
This is where the story getsfun.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
So I'll interject here.
So we were looking to grow ourAppleton office and we had an ad
that you responded to.
I think it was inwisconsinlawyercom, if I'm not
mistaken.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Might've been yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Okay, because I think that's the only thing we were
advertising in back there.
I think it was pre the Indeedera, because I didn't believe in
Indeed back then.
I don't think so.
What year was it or what monthwas it that you joined our team
and then talk through all thenitty-gritty, dirty details of
starting and learning family lawfor the first time, what that
was all like so I'm actuallygoing to go back to the year I
(16:55):
graduated law school.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
I actually had applied and I had followed up
with you and you said so sorry,we're not hiring anymore.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Oh, I rejected you oh man.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
And then the following year, when I was
deciding to part ways with thebusiness transactions firm, I
pulled out my list of all theplaces I had applied.
I just started reaching out topeople.
And I reached out to you andyou said you're in luck, you
know, let's have a phone call.
(17:28):
So there then I.
We talked on the phone and I,the more I researched the firm,
I was really, really intriguedby the process components.
I was hearing the investment insystems, the break the mold by
(17:48):
doing fixed fee.
It was all really intriguing.
It scratched my brain justright as a process person, right
as a process person.
The downside, actually in theinterview process, is when I was
a paralegal I had said if Iever had to do family law I was
going to quit the law.
So I had to keep a really openmind about applying here and
(18:14):
really think about not only whatI wanted for a career, but I
had to really think about myselfand what I needed versus what I
thought I wanted.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Oh, wow, okay, so you had an open mind because you
originally closed off to thiswhole concept of serving people
going through a really hard timein family law.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Exactly.
I'm happy to report it was areally good decision.
I remember within the firstprobably couple of weeks and I
took a stab at a consult.
I thought it was just thegreatest thing.
You know the greatest thing tohave someone in your office for
(18:57):
the first time feeling like theycan unload a burden and tears
stream down their face.
I never thought I would likethat feeling of helping someone
unburdened like that, and now,the more I do it, the more it
just is the most rewarding thingfor me.
(19:17):
Yeah, I think consults are themost rewarding thing for me.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Yeah, I think consults are the best part of
family law.
Personally, I love the consultprocess.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Okay, what month was it that you joined our team?
Speaker 1 (19:28):
September of 2019.
Okay.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
All right, so you started off no experience
whatsoever in family law.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Can I just add to that I didn't even take family
law as a class in law school.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Okay, so we're starting from square zero, like
this is family court, and you'relearning the very basics of
like no fault divorce, to startthere, right?
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Right right.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Got it In that first year.
To summarize, if you like howdid you get trained?
What was your first year like?
How were your numbers, thatsort of thing.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Yeah, the difficulty in Wisconsin is we know we have
in probably most states right,there's a long runway to get
cases onboarded and get themresolved.
So my first year, first of allI really didn't know what I was
(20:21):
doing but I was trying very hardto observe and ask questions.
I'm very much an experientiallearner.
It's interesting that my careergot on this track because I was
afraid when I was about tograduate from college and didn't
become a band director.
Because now I'm kind of theopposite.
(20:43):
I very much thrive insituations where I'm thrown to
the wolves, so to speak, whereI'm put in a situation where
maybe no one has the answerright, maybe it's a new novel
case concept or we're tryingsomething in a project and no
one's done it before.
Like, I very much thrive inthat space.
(21:06):
I've been, through myexperiences, able to develop a
skill to acknowledge that fearbut continue to work through it,
and so I've really used a lotof that.
My first year, you know, goingto hearings with other attorneys
in our office andself-reflection was a huge thing
(21:30):
, right?
What didn't I like aboutbusiness transactions?
What do I like about family law?
What do I like about family law?
How is this fitting mypersonality and what drives me.
I remember one of the veryfirst hearings I did on my own.
(21:52):
It was a father who hadn't seenhis child in six weeks probably
longer than it might've beensix weeks by the time we
initially did our consult, andeven longer by the time the
first hearing occurred, and itwas around this time of the year
.
And I just remember getting himholiday placement and walking
out of that courtroom.
He didn't even realize what hadhappened and then, when I
(22:15):
explained it to him, the look ofrelief on his face was it just
was such an immense andoverwhelming feeling to be able
to give that gift to someone youknow, that he gets to spend the
holidays with his child afternot seeing them for weeks or
months.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Yeah, wow, and it gives me chills thinking about.
Your first year was COVID year,so we're talking 2020.
So that was an odd year allaround, right, so yes.
If you reflect on that year, doyou recall I'm trying to give
the audience some context of howyou've made the jumps over the
years.
Yeah, and by the way, just foreveryone's knowledge, we really
(22:56):
track three different metricshere.
We track our lawyers, we trackour collections, which is an
indicator of efficiency and soforth, and we track our
performance in the consult roomand we track our client
satisfaction scores.
So as you look back, I knowit's four years, we're 24 right
now, but as you look back in 20,do you recall kind of how that
first year shook out?
Speaker 1 (23:16):
As you look back, in 20, do you recall kind of how
that first year shook out.
I was really happy with mycollections, numbers, nps.
I at the time I'm going to behonest I ignored.
I didn't think it was somethingI could actually influence.
What was the what's?
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Our consult rate.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Oh, consult rate.
That was hard during COVIDbecause we had so many people
contact us for consults thatwere in really bad living
situations.
But because of COVID, becauseof the financial effects, I felt
pretty powerless to help themand I think I don't remember
(24:00):
what the numbers were, but Iseem to recall that there was.
I mean, it just had an effecton every business, I think
including ours.
People were hesitant to pullthe trigger on filing for
divorce during COVID.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Yeah, it was especially during those months
of April, May and June, RightInto the year.
It kind of swung back a littlebit, as I recall.
So that was your first fullyear learning family law.
We get into 21.
And do you recall how thingswent for you that year?
Speaker 1 (24:29):
21,.
I did extremely well, if Irecall correctly.
Well, if I recall correctly, by2021, I think that was the
first year I had the highestcollections in the firm.
It was either 21 or 22.
As you and I know, the otherattorney in our office, who is
(24:51):
extremely competitive, had beenrunning numbers all year and
here's me just trying to keepgetting through the day because
I'm still learning my job and hewas, I think, quite shocked
when he ran the year-end numbersbecause no one had projected it
and I wasn't paying attention.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Hello, jeff, here, my team and I have built a family
law practice resource website atjsterlinghughescom.
That's jsterlinghughescom, andit is loaded with all kinds of
information and downloads andeducational content to help you
build the family law practice ofyour dreams.
(25:32):
So, if you haven't, please goto my website, subscribe to the
newsletter and I promise eachweek I'll send you valuable
content that will help you builda beautiful law firm, as well
as share with you news anddevelopments happening around
the United States that impactthe practice of family law.
Okay, so that was Jeff Murrell.
Now, I had him on as a guest acouple months ago I don't know,
(25:55):
seven or eight months ago wherehe crossed the million dollar
threshold.
You now have crossed, orbumping right into the 1.3.
So you've blown his numbers outof the water, and so let's just
kind of cut right to the chase.
And how in the world do you dothat?
Talk about your processes, yourstaffing.
How big is your staffing thatsupports you?
(26:17):
How do you handle consults andall that?
Because you're doing thisyou're not as a part of a lawyer
team.
You're doing this on your ownas a lawyer, with support
teammates.
So how do you do it?
Speaker 1 (26:27):
Right right Right now .
Our model is that we havepeople to manage people not on
my team.
So I want to be upfront aboutthat.
I do spend time managing theteam, but I'm not responsible
for, or directly responsible for, hiring, firing and performance
(26:47):
plans, that sort of thing.
On my team I have one full-timeparalegal, a bit unique in the
firm in that she is assigned tome full-time.
She does not support any otherattorneys in our firm.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
What's her name?
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Olivia.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Olivia okay.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
And then we just started piloting about.
Within the last six months,we've been developing and
piloting a virtual legalassistant role, who is Bing, so
these two people support me fulltime.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
So Bing is in the Philippines and Olivia is there
with you locally in Appleton.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Okay, and have these two ladies been with you all
year?
I know Bing just recently, asin a few months ago joined your
team, but Olivia has been withyou all year.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Yes, she started on my team.
I think we just had our twoyear anniversary or it's this
month, sometime working together.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Yeah, got it.
Okay.
And outside of that direct likeserving, helping you on your
team is just those two ladies.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Obviously, we have a marketing team and we have an
intake team and all that, butRight and I I occasionally get
help or leverage help from twoassociates on our team If
there's a good learningopportunity, or it's pretty rare
that they would cover anyhearings for me or, you know,
start to finish, handle any taskfor me.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Okay, so what is a day in the life or a week in the
life of Tiffany?
Look like.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
I think the biggest thing is figure out when you are
going to have desk time toprepare where you're not being
interrupted.
Desk time to prepare whereyou're not being interrupted.
People on our team like topoint out that they think I keep
crazy hours.
My desk time largely, is beforethe workday begins, because I
(28:46):
want to be able to start withthe task that is the most
difficult really needs to becompleted Anything that is
urgent carryover from the daybefore.
One thing I've implemented withmy team in fact, we got out of
the habit of it.
We're getting back in the habitof it.
(29:07):
I just sent a message to themtoday Think about your frogs.
So I know there are lots of,lots of podcasts and good
materials about eating your frogone bite at a time.
So always creating awarenesswithin your team.
Every person should have a frog.
What's the thing you'reprocrastinating?
What's the thing that, if done,would lift the brain weight?
Speaker 2 (29:32):
So in free up space so that we can do other things
plus keep clients happy yeah,you're referring to the, the
metaphor of eat the frog first,because it's the worst, grossest
thing you'll do of the day yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
I think I said one bite at a time I I'm notorious
for getting one bite at a time,as long as you eat it first.
Right, you got to eat it firstone bite at a time.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
I guess if you've got a big enough goal you know goal
, like me, but okay, so Iinterrupt you.
You're talking about theprinciple of the grossest thing
you have to do, the thing youwere putting off and you
procrastinate the most on.
You do that first, you and yourteam.
Yes, Trying to just instillthat as like the ethos of how
your team operates.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
Yes, and in fact sometimes when I can tell
there's procrastinationoccurring, either myself or
someone on my team I don't evenhave to say anything.
I just go grab a picture of afrog off the Internet and send
that to someone.
That's either me committing thatI'm not leaving work until I've
eaten my frog and if Iprocrastinated all day, well I
(30:37):
guess that means I'm eatingdinner late that night or my
team knows when they get that,like that's my check in to see
where they are on the task thatthey've committed to completing
that day.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Do you have a sense, Tiffany, of how many files
you've closed in 2024?
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Probably around the 200 mark.
Would that be about, right, youthink?
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Probably.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
Okay From a standpoint of consults, because
when people see your performance, the immediate reaction is, oh,
she must work 95 hours a week.
Immediate reaction is, oh, shemust work 95 hours a week and
every client's pissed off at herbecause she has no time to
spend with any of them, which isabsolutely not true on both
counts.
So I don't want to drill intothose and be real about them.
(31:25):
Of course I don't want to likecandy coat anything here.
So, standpoint of how youmanage that many files with your
team I mean fixed fee is a bigpart of it.
Right, because you're notrequired to grind hours.
You're trying, you're requiredto grind out results and if that
happens on a time or a longamount of time.
So, starting with the consults,how many consults are you
(31:46):
taking?
Are you going through theconsult for all of those
individuals, those clients, orhow does that work?
Speaker 1 (31:52):
I think that's another great call out of
someone who's not directly on myteam but I directly benefit
from.
So I do a combination of my ownconsults and then also receive
handoffs, primarily from ourconsult team and I know, going
into next year.
I've looked at, you know, thecost to me of doing my own
(32:17):
consults versus that team andthe benefit of having that team
continue to do the consults forme outweighs the time I would
invest.
Now I'm still working with mycurrent team.
So, being in Olivia to maximizemy calendar time so that I can
do both.
(32:37):
Right, I want my pipeline asopen as possible by doing as
many of my own consults whilestill serving my current clients
, plus getting those handoffsfrom our consult team.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Okay, you're referring to our consult legal
assistants who and it's blendedit's about a 50-50 ratio right
now of the total consults ourfirm does.
Half of them is done bynon-lawyers on our CLA team and
half of them are done by ourlawyers.
Roughly it flows and goes 60-40some weeks, but in that range.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Right.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
And some of them are doing the consult, passing the
client over to you once theclient funds Right and meeting
them.
Okay, got it.
And so in a given week, howmany consults are you doing
personally?
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Well, my plan going into the busy season you know
it's December, it's not a greatindicator because our consults
tend to be lighter this time ofyear.
To be lighter this time of year, but going into our busy season
.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
so February, march, april, I would shoot for eight
to 10 consults a week, if I canswing it with my caseload and
court appearances, okay, andeach consult requires about how
much time to prep.
Do the consult?
Post-consult notes what doesthat look like?
Speaker 1 (33:55):
Always looking for efficiency.
On that, I know.
When I talked with Jeff Morrellhe seems to think close to
three hours.
I think that's really long.
I think probably an hour and ahalf prep time time in the
consult follow-ups, afterwardsfollow-ups with our consult
legal assistants.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Okay, so you invest about an hour and a half time
total ish, right, I know itvaries between clients with your
initial consult.
So if you're doing eight to 10,so that's going to require
about 15 hours a week, right,okay, in a given week and I'm
all time now, all the all thetime you spent consults, doing
legal work, doing stuff we askyou to do, that doesn't show up,
(34:37):
right?
How much time of that are youworking in a given week?
Speaker 1 (34:41):
I would say, if I looked at that across the entire
year, I actually don't work asmany hours as what it might seem
.
I'm probably in the 50 to 60hour range.
Of course, you know January.
I know I have a ton of trialsscheduled.
I'm going to be working more.
I'm already planning ahead forthat.
(35:02):
But then in the summer you'llhave legs where you know maybe
I'm working 40 hours and I'mleaving early on a Friday
because I can.
I think this is reallyimportant.
I take vacation.
I've been bad about it the lastyear and a half, but it is
something that I'm reallycommitted to doing taking
vacation and not being available.
(35:24):
My staff knows how to get ahold of me if there's truly
something urgent, and I alwaystell them the same thing when I
leave the office.
If you can get a hold of me,then I'll answer the phone.
But I'm very intentional abouttaking trips where frequently
there isn't access.
There isn't phone access orinternet access.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
for that reason, so this year how much vacation time
did you take?
Speaker 1 (35:48):
This year was a bit of an odd year because of
personal stuff going on, but Idid, throughout the summer,
block my calendar on Fridaysalmost through the entire summer
, and so I would work maybe fora few hours in the morning and
then take the rest of the dayand go hiking or leave early for
(36:09):
a weekend, that sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
Okay.
So in fairness, you have apretty heavy load.
You don't take a ton of time,working about 50 to 60 hours a
week.
So that's just you're.
You're grinding, no question.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Yeah, I mean I.
Again.
I want to say that this isn't anormal year for me.
I don't anticipate that I willtake no vacation this year.
It was truly because of somepersonal things going on that I
wasn't able to take as muchvacation.
I wasn't able to invest thehours during my working weeks
that I normally would have tobalance out the vacation that I
(36:45):
would have preferred to take.
But I did in August take.
You know I took a week vacationand went to California to visit
some friends, so I do taketruly time away.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Okay.
So I want to switch over andtalk about the systems that
you've built for yourself thatyou can kind of maybe help our
audience understand.
In some ways they can injectthat into their practice.
You talk about this idea ofeating the frog first and doing
the worst task of the day in thebeginning, because it lifts the
mental weight that you'recarrying, dreading having to do
(37:19):
it.
So you put it off, put it off,put it off and you spend half
your day thinking about notdoing it right.
What else do you do?
Speaker 1 (37:26):
The other thing I do and we tested something over the
summer that was different thanthis and I didn't like it.
It and we're going back to theoriginal process.
The moment that we are retainedon a case, I am tasking certain
things that are that meet the80-20 rule.
(37:46):
What I mean by that is, ifyou're doing a divorce, you have
to file the divorce.
You have to do a financialdisclosure statement.
You're going to have eithermediation or a GAL appointed.
Do you need an appraisal Right?
These are all things.
I know from the consult what thetrajectory of a case is.
We have to do a maritalsettlement agreement and a
(38:09):
property division worksheet,child support calculations and
final documents divisionworksheet, child support
calculations and final documents.
I task that at the beginning ofa case.
We move deadlines, we assignthe tasks between teammates, but
I want to get those all outthere, because then when we're
talking about a case, we're notthinking about just the thing
(38:32):
we're working on right now.
We're thinking about final docs.
When do I need that?
How do we get there?
So there's always this bigpicture for the cases when are
we?
How do we get to the end?
And it's great because we don'thave oversight.
(38:53):
We're not forgetting to dofinal docs and showing up for a
court hearing without them.
We're not, you know, having acase sit for weeks or months
because the client's not barkingat me and I don't have a task
for a marital settlementagreement.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
So putting that all in there, You're tasking marital
settlement agreement right atthe beginning.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
I task it right at the beginning.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Okay, wow Okay.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
So, like here in Wisconsin, we have a four month
waiting period, so that's veryrare to start on that document
day one or day week one.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
I'm not starting it.
I'm creating the task, but Itypically put it out about 90
days.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
Yeah, and again, if we're not at a point of drafting
that 90 days, then I'm having aconversation with my team.
What do we need to do to get tothe point where we're drafting
that?
So what this firm does a reallygood job of is giving us a
system to manage tasks, and sowhat I try and do is think about
each client as a project.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Right, and if you are doing a project plan like you
think about an IT project plan,and you're only writing the next
step in programming, you'velost sight of you know what's
your deliverable, what are yourobjectives.
And so I really try and take myexperience, having worked on IT
(40:20):
projects and having clearobjectives, deliverables, a
clear project plan beginning toend, and bring that to this
space.
How do I, for you, know?
Speaker 2 (40:38):
space.
How do I, for you, know clientJohn Doe, what is his project
plan?
Yeah, so when you say task,that's another way of just
saying scheduling out these jobsto happen at a certain time, so
it all syncs up and comestogether when you need it to.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Yeah, and one of the things I want to point out here
that you're exceptionally goodat is this concept of practicing
with a proactive mindset.
So you take the initiative inevery one of these cases.
You're the one that drives theagenda, pushes them along In
some cases, I'm sure, even morethan the courts do.
You're pushing toward aresolution from the very minute
(41:09):
you get a hold of that case.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Exactly.
Yeah, I'm not waiting for thecourt.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
So in fixed fee, that's a key factor, isn't it To
be proactive?
Because you're not paid for thetime in the case, you're paid
for the result you deliver tothe clients.
That's your deliverable,exactly Out of the court system.
That's what they want.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
So all of your systems that you've built in
your practice they start withthis concept of you're treating
every case like a project.
You've done these same projectsover and over again, so you've
really boiled it down to theessence and you'll schedule out
that whole project the day youget the case.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
There are exceptions, right, but I'm not building a
process for 100% of the variable, the variability.
I'm building it for 80%.
So we have cases where I'mgetting retained late in a case
and I need access to the casefile before I can come up with
the project plan.
But, generally speaking, thisis how I approach every case.
(42:08):
Even when I'm retained late, Iwant to get to that point where
I can tell the client I'vethought about where we are now,
where you want to be, and how weget there.
What are those steps?
Speaker 2 (42:21):
So let's talk about delegation, because you couldn't
do what you do without a reallystrong team and Olivia is a
stud, I mean.
So let's just acknowledge thatright up front.
What is your philosophy andapproach toward delegation?
How much of it do you do?
How much are you holding on totiffany?
Because I know a lot of lawyershave a really difficult time
letting go of some of thelanguaging, for the msa, for
(42:43):
example, and I know some won'tlet even their assistant do the
financials, which is right,silly, but they.
That happens quite a bit.
So what's your philosophy?
Speaker 1 (42:52):
well my background is is actually another piece here
where I feel very fortunate tohave had background as a
paralegal in a very largecompany for 10 years.
I worked very autonomously butunder the supervision of an
attorney, and there was always alot of research done in that
(43:12):
corporate setting about exactlywhat paralegals could and
couldn't do.
What does it mean to besupervised?
And I brought that with me toour practice here.
So I am one of these attorneyswho is always challenging the
paralegals to expand theirdefinition of what it means to
(43:36):
practice law, because I thinkthat there's still more
opportunity to be had in thisspace.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
Wow Okay.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
I am not someone who wants to own things.
I just was talking with afriend of mine this week and
they said I come across as sodetail-oriented.
I said, actually the detailscause a friend of mine this week
and they said I come across asso detail oriented.
I said, actually the detailscause a lot of anxiety for me
because I am a big picturethinker.
I'm this, you know, big picture, strategic thinker, and so when
(44:06):
I think about tasks that I candelegate to my paralegal we've
had conversations I'm thestrategic thinker.
I need you to be detailoriented.
If I draft something, assume ithas typos in it.
It was one of the reasons goingback to why am I not in
business transactions, becausethat requires a level of detail
(44:28):
orientation that's difficult forme, and so having those open
dialogues with your team aboutwhat each person's strengths and
weaknesses are is reallyimportant.
And I think the other thing toothat I have always been very
clear with my team my job is notto make your job harder, my job
(44:53):
is to make your job easier andserve the clients better, and so
I have tried very hard todevelop a team where they are
very willing to bring mefeedback, where I encourage
feedback, where, when we haveteam meetings, I'm bringing a
(45:14):
list of where, when we have teammeetings, I'm bringing a list
of hey, can we try this processimprovement?
And they're bringing a listwith additional process
improvements and we're creatingthis constant dialogue about
what moves the needle.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
That's so hard to get my head around, because if
you're constantly improving yourprocesses, you can do less work
for more result over and overagain, but it takes a special
thinker and a discipline to staywith that.
So do you have any tricks ormethodologies that you follow to
do that?
Speaker 1 (45:42):
I think the biggest thing is, well, two things.
So I am not someone who likesto try.
Technology is my first go-to.
That is one area where JeffMorell and I we are
complimentary He'll trytechnology right away.
(46:03):
And I'm more about efficienciesand other ways people
management, client management,those sorts of things.
So for me it's more aboutfinding the problem.
I'll give an example Yesterdaywe had a team meeting and I said
hey, we're struggling.
(46:25):
When we're supposed to befinalizing a financial
disclosure statement ahead of atemporary order hearing, Clients
aren't responding to our emails, I'm not getting the document
soon enough to be able toprepare for my prep hearing call
with the client, which meansI'm creating a bottleneck and
getting their financial approvedand submitted to the court.
(46:46):
And I brought some ideas tothat meeting and we talked about
it and we came up with apotential solution.
I think the biggest thing is isyou have to take time to
reflect on your day.
What went well, what didn't gowell?
Where do you think there's roomfor improvement?
(47:09):
Right, Right, you have to maketime for it and for me it's
natural to do that.
That is something I think abouton the drive home from work.
What went well, what didn't gowell.
Where is there room forimprovement?
If it's not natural to you, youhave to schedule time for that.
Speaker 2 (47:28):
Yeah, I agree with you.
You have to be totallyintentional, because I don't
naturally do that.
I'm go go go and it doesn'ttake a ton of time just to
reflect back and say, okay, Ineed to adjust here.
If you do one adjustment a day,that gets you 1% better man,
that's incredible results overtime.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Right.
Speaker 2 (47:45):
Tiffany, on the delegation side, what things do
you not delegate?
So let's kind of start withthat list.
Now, we know, obviously, you'regoing to court, so we're not
sending paralegals to court.
All right, you're giving theadvice to the client, but
there's a whole lot more infamily law other than that,
those two things.
Is there anything else that youjust simply will not delegate?
Speaker 1 (48:05):
I don't like the words will not.
Can you tell?
I think the things that wouldbe very difficult to delegate,
but I would never say never ifthere's, because I'm always
thinking about how do weleverage staff more, right, yeah
, I think the thing that isdifficult to delegate is any
(48:31):
task that the client needs theinterface with the attorney for
their confidence in the firm andin the job that we're doing.
So what I mean by that is ifthe client has a urgent safety
concern, our paralegals aregreat.
(48:53):
Our paralegals will talk tothem, but they want to talk with
an attorney.
I could give a script to aparalegal, but it's not going to
be received and have the samecalming effect for the client as
if I deliver it myself Ofcourse.
Speaker 2 (49:07):
Yeah, Just there, though, I can tell you're
delegating part of thatresponsibility.
You're like I set the table foryou.
You're able to deliver thatconfidence and affirm them and
encourage them and support themand love on them and all that.
But it's the whole setup andall that that you're doing parts
of that.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Right, right, and that's a good point too, too.
So one thing I do when I'mfirst, so I was talking about
what's my I have this projectplan right.
The first thing the clientreceives from me via email is an
email that says here's who I am, here's who my team is, here's
how you get a hold of us.
And in that email I include alink that the clients are
(49:48):
encouraged to use anytime.
They don't need permission fromme.
They can click on it andschedule 15 minutes with me.
So that's helpful upfront, thatI'm giving them my entire
team's contact information.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
You move past that pretty quick.
That's a key thing you'rementioning there.
You give your clients a link,but anytime they want to talk to
Tiffany, they can go on thatlink and they can schedule 15
minutes on your calendar and itpops up.
You give it rules, right, ofcourse, but what's the
utilization for that for clients?
How many are doing this?
Speaker 1 (50:22):
I would say probably half or more.
It depends how tech savvy theyare.
My older clients want to reachout to the paralegal and
schedule through the paralegal,which they can also do.
My more tech savvy clients, youknow they might schedule a 15
minute meeting with me everycouple of weeks just to do a
(50:42):
check in, especially if we'rewaiting on things like waiting
on a valuation or appraisal, oryou know, they're waiting on
their mediation date and thatsort of thing.
The clients who use it reallylike it.
It's a little frustrating forthem, I think sometimes if I
don't have availability like ifI have a trial coming up my
(51:04):
calendar tends to be full andit's hard for them to find a
time.
But that's not the only waythat they can reach out to me
and I also let them know.
So it's set up for 15 minutes.
They need more time than 15minutes.
They can ask for that.
They just can't schedule thatthemselves.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
Wow, that's a good parameter there.
Ok, wow, that's a goodparameter there.
(51:49):
Okay, you earlier this year ourfirm and really kind of coming
out of last year put a lot ofemphasis around shifting our
focus from being a marketing andHolly and all of the senior
partners really kind of steppedinto some of these roles and
you've responded incredibly wellhere.
You've done some incrediblethings with your client
satisfaction and so forth and Iasked you before our call here
like, how have you done that tosuch a high level?
And you really you use thewords behavior modification when
it comes to client service.
I'd love for you to unpack thatfor our audience.
(52:10):
One and two practical steps.
I know this calendar linking isone of them, which is a
brilliant idea, because I knowthat probably gives clients a
whole lot of just satisfactionand comfort.
Hey, I want to talk to Tiffany.
I can always get on a calendar.
So what have you done?
Speaker 1 (52:24):
behaviorally modification it's not like
you're a dog or something likethat, and I like how you put
that, but what have you done?
One of the things I did isnumber one.
You really have to take thetime to reflect on yourself.
We talk as family law attorneys.
How many times a day am Iasking a client if they're
(52:44):
seeing a therapist, if theywould like a referral to a
therapist, suggesting that theirkids get in therapy?
And I wasn't taking the time toactually do that myself.
And this is a really stressfuljob.
And the reason I bring this upis because I was able to a
(53:05):
combination of working with mymanager and saying, okay, the
segment of the population that Idon't want.
Another one of these clientswas middle-aged men.
I had a really hard time.
I had a hard time relating tothem.
I had biases against them andthe things that they were
(53:27):
telling me.
I didn't feel like I hadanything I could relate to or in
common with them.
I really struggled in meetingtheir needs.
They were frequently the onesthat were very dissatisfied with
the service that I wasproviding.
So I unpacked that in therapy,quite frankly, and realized that
(53:50):
there were things in my pastthat I needed to deal with where
this particular population wasa trigger for me.
In addition to that, I workedwith my manager to say OK, this
is the population I have thehardest time addressing.
Let's come up with a game planon how I'm going to better serve
these people.
Speaker 2 (54:12):
Wow, do you remember what that plan was?
Speaker 1 (54:21):
Yeah.
So, number one, I had a veryshort temper with these people,
quite frankly, and so one of thethings I do now is just
acknowledge it in a phone call,right.
So one of the things I do nowis just acknowledge it in a
phone call, right.
When my client, and especiallythis population, is getting
escalated in how they'recommunicating with me, I just
call it out and I'm really calmabout it.
I wait for a pause in theconversation and I'll just say
(54:42):
you know, I hear the stress inyour voice.
I know you're frustrated.
I just want to let you knowthat you know I'm feeling stress
and anxiety for you.
I just want to bring thetemperature down a little bit
Because if we continue toescalate and I'm matching your
(55:03):
energy we're not going to beable to accomplish what we need,
and I'm here to support you.
So it was finding a differentway to communicate with this
group of people that I felt likeI could not relate to, figuring
out how to communicate withthem differently, how to
(55:23):
deescalate in the moment, andhow important a pause in the
conversation can be.
That is, it's super powerful,and maybe you know, maybe it's a
male attorney working withmiddle-aged female mothers and
having a hard time relating.
I don't know what it's going tobe for each attorney listening
(55:44):
to this podcast.
But figure out who thepopulation is that you have the
most difficult time serving andreally keep asking yourself the
question why, why am Istruggling to serve that
population?
And then I think once youfigure out the why, the steps to
resolve that then becomeclearer and then it's just a
(56:07):
matter of practice.
So part of why I identifiedthis population as well, um, is
because I figured if I couldmove the needle for them, then I
would be able to move theneedle for every client okay, so
it's like another big versionof eat the frog figure, that
population, yeah, wow.
Speaker 2 (56:26):
So I'm a middle-aged guy, definitely, so I'm going to
be listening.
I'm going to be listening forthese uh soothing strategies you
have whenever you and I talkgoing forward.
You know, you just divulge yoursecrets to me right, I know so
from a behavior modificationthat seemed like you're the
biggest lever that you pulled tohave these big, vast
(56:46):
improvements over the course ofa while and maybe therapy isn't
the thing for everyone.
Speaker 1 (56:52):
Um, it was for me, I.
I needed that because I neededsomeone else to reflect back to
me what I wasn't, what I didn'thave the self-awareness to
identify in myself.
If you're someone who's can dothat work on your own, I mean,
certainly you could avoid theneed for therapy.
But it was really critical forme.
Speaker 2 (57:11):
Yeah, I'm a big believer in therapy.
I've done my share of time onthe couch.
Speaker 1 (57:16):
Right.
Speaker 2 (57:18):
All right.
So for the sake of time, I'veasked you a whole lot of
questions about how you did itlast year.
Is there anything I'm notasking you that you feel like
would just be that gold nuggetyou would pass on to help other
attorneys have some of theefficiency successes that you've
had?
Speaker 1 (57:32):
I really just would reiterate self-awareness, asking
questions, be curious, be aconstant learner.
Those are skills that are sohard to teach, but I do believe
they are teachable and I believethat those set the foundation
(57:56):
for having a really successfulpractice and being a really
successful attorney.
Speaker 2 (58:01):
Wow, thank you so much.
It's been a great conversation.
I appreciate your time today.
Speaker 1 (58:05):
Yeah.
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!