October 23, 2025 • 39 mins
A wedding week. A sudden collapse. An operating room that opened into something luminous.
In this deeply moving conversation, Mike McKinsey shares the near-death experience that transformed the ruptured appendix into a profound awakening of meaning, faith, and purpose. He recalls the moment he says Jesus took his hand, the breathtaking landscape of living light and domed cities, and the jolt back to a hospital bed.
It’s a story told with honesty and detail — one that gently reminds us there’s more to life than the body.
We explore what came after the vision just as much as the vision itself: pneumonia, ICU nights, and a second encounter that arrived as a quiet but unmistakable voice — tell our story, expect valleys, keep walking. Over two decades, Mike has learned to live by that guidance, listening for small promptings, testing them through action, and meeting scepticism with empathy. His message now reaches millions through podcasts, books, and the near-death experience community.
💡 In this episode, you’ll discover:
- What near-death experiences reveal about consciousness and divine connection
- How to ask for guidance without forcing outcomes
- The difference between blind faith and tested faith
- Why beauty, gratitude, and silence can anchor a restless mind
- How to live with greater peace, purpose, and trust in life’s unfolding
Whether you call it God, Jesus, or the Universe, the invitation is the same:
Pay attention, act on the light you have, and let hope guide your next step.
If this episode resonates, please follow the show, share it with someone who needs encouragement today, and leave a review with the question you’d most want to ask Mike. Your reflections help shape what we explore next.
Thank you for listening
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:03):
They wheel me into surgery before they put any mask
on, before they gave me anymedication.
I'm I get slid over from thegurney to the surgical table,
and I look to my right, andJesus walks into the operating
room.
It was like the surgeon walkedin, but it's Jesus wearing a
white robe.
(00:24):
And I look at him like, what theheck is going on here?
SPEAKER_00 (00:28):
Hello and welcome to the James Granstrom Podcast
Super Soul Model Series.
This week we are joined by MikeMcKinsey.
Mike is an accomplished authorand real estate investor whose
life took a profound turn backin 2004 with a near-death
experience.
The moment became a catalyst forMike with deep exploration in
consciousness, spirituality, andthe interconnectedness of life.
(00:49):
Grounded in his Christian faithand guided by firsthand insight
into the afterlife, Mike's workinvites others to see life
through the lens of divinepurpose, love, and awakening.
Welcome to this episode, Mike.
Thanks so much for having me,James.
I appreciate it.
Thank you, Mike.
So tell us a little bit aboutthe beginning of how the
(01:09):
near-death experience all cameabout.
I think if you cast us back toabout 2004, that's probably um
well.
SPEAKER_01 (01:18):
We've traveled about five hours away from our home to
to attend my son's wedding.
He was living down on the coastin California.
And um so we got there like Ithink four days early.
We got there on a Wednesday.
The wedding was going to be on aSaturday.
And my boys, my other two boyswanted to play baseball, so they
(01:38):
brought their wiffle balls andand bats.
And we went out to the park andplayed some baseball.
So I did a lot of uh a lot ofphysical activity, a lot of
twisting that I normally don'tdo.
I was a baseball coach for along time, but I didn't really
play that hard, you know.
But we played for a couplehours.
And uh man, Wednesday night Istarted feeling sick, and I
thought, gosh, great time to geta flu.
(02:00):
You know, my son's wedding'scoming up on Saturday.
Uh so I just kind of passed itoff as no big deal.
Thursday I got sicker.
Friday we had the rehearsaldinner.
I got really sick then.
And um Friday night before thewedding, I didn't sleep at all
because I was just in so muchpain.
Um but I didn't, I didn't reallyknow what it was.
(02:20):
My son was in the medical fieldand we were sitting at the bar
after uh after the rehearsaldinner having a glass of wine.
And he says, You know, Dad,maybe it's your appendix.
And I said, I don't think so,Ben.
You know, it's it, I don't havethat point tenderness.
You know, they always say youcan touch that one little spot
and you go through the roof.
But um I didn't have that.
And I just I just said, Yeah, Ithink it's the flu.
(02:43):
And he says, you know, youshould probably get checked out.
And I said, Well, you know,after after the wedding, I'll
I'll go to the hospital, getchecked out before we before we
travel back home.
And uh so we made it through therehearsal dinner or through the
wedding.
Wedding was beautiful.
It was on a golf course outthere, wedding was you know, the
weather was perfect.
Um, and then after the weddingwas over, the reception and all
(03:07):
that, I told them I gotta go getchecked out because by then I
was sweating.
I'd checked my temperature, itwas 104.
Okay, and I was just reallypale.
Uh, all the wedding pictures, myfavorite ones are the ones in
black and white because youcan't see how pale I am.
SPEAKER_00 (03:22):
You didn't do like a ghost or something.
SPEAKER_01 (03:24):
Oh, it's terrible.
Um, so anyway, I go to thehospital and and I'm laying back
in the emergency room, and thelady's kind of pushing on my my
stomach, and she says, You know,I think that's your appendix.
It sounds a lot like yourappendix.
And she's pushing on my abdomen.
She says, Does that hurt?
And I said, No, not really.
I mean, I I think I just got theflu.
(03:45):
I'm telling a nurse, you know,what my problem is, right?
Um, she says, Well, I think it'syour appendix.
And so she takes out this littlerubber mallet and she taps the
bottom of my foot and she says,Does that hurt?
And I said, No, I kind oflaughed.
I thought, you know, why are youchecking my feet?
It's weird.
But then she tapped the otherfoot, and man, the pain in my
(04:07):
abdomen made me scream.
And she says, Okay, that's yourappendix.
It's probably ruptured.
She says, Uh, have you done anylike physical activity in the
last couple of days?
And I said, Well, you know,Wednesday, I played some
baseball in the park with mykids for a couple hours, and her
expression changed.
You could just see like panicset in.
(04:28):
She says, Wednesday, and she'sthinking, Thursday, Friday,
Saturday, this is three days.
If your appendix ruptured, thenuh we have to get you back there
pretty quick.
So she called in a surgeon.
They wheel me into surgery, andum before they put any mask on,
before they gave me anymedication, I'm I get slid over
(04:51):
from the gurney to the surgicaltable, and I look to my right,
and Jesus walks into theoperating room.
It was like it was like thesurgeon walked in, but it's
Jesus wearing a white robe.
Right.
And I look at him like, what theheck is going on here?
You know, and I kind of lookedback at at the rest of the room
(05:14):
and just sort of all faded away,like it just got all like foggy
and like with these um like likesparkly fog.
It was really weird.
And Jesus walks up to me and heholds out his hand and he says,
I want to answer your prayer.
Now I'm thinking, my prayer, youknow.
I before I went in, I said alittle prayer that everything
(05:36):
would go well, and sure doesn'tlook like it's gonna go too
well.
Jesus is taking me to heavenhere, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (05:42):
Yeah, because uh what was he wearing?
What you know, like becausethere's you must have surgeons
in the room, and then suddenlyJesus is in front of you.
SPEAKER_01 (05:49):
Yeah, uh he was he was the only person that I could
see, but it was a very physicalencounter, like it, like I said,
like like I thought he was asurgeon.
He's wearing a white robe, goesall the way down to the floor.
Uh he had darker skin than whatI than what I had been shown as
a kid, you know.
As a as a kid in in California,uh I was shown a blonde-haired,
(06:12):
blue-eyed Jesus, and he was notblonde-haired and blue-eyed.
He did have deep green, uh,greenish, almost blue eyes, but
they were very dark green.
unknown (06:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:23):
Uh he had, like I said, dark skin, um, looked like
an Arab man, uh, which was, likeI said, totally because that's
the part of the region where hehe was born.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Which makes sense.
But you know, as a kid, I neverreally thought about it.
Um, and his hair was kind ofwavy about down to his
shoulders, a little past hisshoulders.
unknown (06:44):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (06:44):
And um I I I could just I felt this love radiing,
radiating from him.
Um, and I've always said whenhis eyes looked into my eyes, he
looked into my soul.
It was like he was my my father,my brother, my best friend, all
wrapped up in one.
(07:06):
And and so he's holding out hishand, saying he wants to answer
my prayer.
And I I thought, well, if I takehis hand, like, am I is that it?
Am I dead?
You know, I I figured maybe so,but what are you gonna do?
Jesus says, I want to answeryour prayer and holds out his
hand.
I can't really say no.
So I I grab his hand immediatelywhen I touched his hand.
(07:29):
I found myself standing on thisgrassy hill, still holding his
hand, and I'm looking around,and everything is white, like
the whitest white I've everseen.
I I can't really see anythingexcept the grass below my feet.
And my senses were heightened tothe point where I could count
every single blade of grass thatwas touching my feet.
(07:51):
It was like I knew instantly howmany blades of grass there were.
And so I'm looking around andthen I see, like kind of off to
my right at about my my height,there's this round, almost
basketball-sized light that'slighter than the rest of the
light, and it's kind ofshimmering, and it starts
(08:12):
sending off these light beams,like coming towards me.
And they look like fluorescentlight tubes, but they're short,
they're a couple feet long,they're smooth, they're a little
bit fatter than fluorescentlight tubes.
And one of them comes at me andhits me right in the forehead.
And as it hits me, it makes thiskind of like a light buzzing
(08:33):
sound.
And when it goes through me, itwarmed me like all the way down
to my feet.
It was really an amazingfeeling.
And then as I look back wherethese things are coming from,
it's like somebody took acurtain, the white, the all that
white that was in front of me,it was like it was a curtain and
somebody pulled it from my rightto my left, and it just revealed
(08:53):
this beautiful scenery.
So now I see at the bottom of, Iam standing on a hill.
At the bottom of the hill, thereare there are these uh like
beautiful pastel colors um offlowers, and they're kind of
dancing like they're likethere's a little bit of wind,
uh, but there's no wind.
(09:14):
And at the bottom of that hill,there's a huge city, but that
white, that white fog settled inthe city in the valley.
So all I can see is rooftopssticking through the fog.
And there's um there's this biggiant like golden dome almost in
the middle, but uh way off inthe this city's huge, it's like
(09:35):
miles across.
And there's other golden domesthat are sticking through the
fog, and there's a lot of likewhite rooftops too, like and
there's a lot of church steeplesthat look like church steeples,
but they didn't have crosses onthe top of them, which I thought
was odd, because all all thesteeples that I've seen have a
cross at the top, or almost allof them, and then on the other
(09:58):
side of that city there'sanother mountain, and that's a
big mountain.
Uh, and it's covered in thesepine trees.
They look like pine trees, butthey're just perfectly shaped.
And now all of a sudden, allthose light beams that were
coming at me are going acrossthe city, across the tops of the
buildings, and they're goingover and they hit the trees.
(10:22):
And when they hit these trees,there was like uh it was like
they had diamonds on the tips ofthem because when one light beam
hit it, it burst into hundredsof tiny light beams.
And they were just like goingoff all over the place.
And there they were um they werecontrasted by the sky behind it
(10:43):
that was it was like the mostbeautiful sunset I've ever seen,
but there was no sun.
So there's you know the skyabove these trees is like reds
and and oranges and just supervivid colors, and these things
are popping everywhere, and it'slike fireworks, but they were
all white.
And I just thought, wow, this isjust so amazing.
(11:05):
I just stood there in awe and Ilook back at to to where the
where they were coming from,these light beams, and Jesus
says to me, It's the glory ofthe Lord.
And when he said that, I justgot weak in my knees.
I got so filled with emotion, Icouldn't stand.
And so I fell to my knees, andthe instant my knees hit the
(11:28):
ground, they shocked me in thehospital and they brought me
back.
So now instead of this beautifulscenery, I've got a doctor
leaning over me wearing a mask,and he says, Do you know your
name?
And I'm thinking, like, what theheck?
Where, you know, where did thisbeautiful scenery go?
Where'd Jesus go?
And he says, Again, do you knowyour name?
(11:51):
And so I my throat was likereally dry, uh, probably from
the anesthesia.
And I I struggled to get my nameout, but I did say Mike.
And he says, Okay, good, do youknow where you are?
And I said, Ventura, that wasthe city on the coast where the
where the wedding was.
And um, he says, Okay, good,he's back.
(12:12):
And now he starts talking toother people in the room, and I
realize that there's like fiveor six other nurses, they're all
wearing these blue scrubs,running around.
And I look and I see the crashcart.
One of one of the people areputting the paddles back on the
crash cart and they wheel it byme.
And he says, uh, he says, Let'sget him up to ICU.
Um, and so I spent uh about fourdays in ICU and 12 days in the
(12:36):
hospital.
I developed a few complications,so it took me quite a while.
So the next next day, I thoughtthis was interesting.
The next day, the surgeon comesin and he says, uh, he says, Oh,
glad to see you stuck around.
I hear we had a little incidentlast night.
And I said, Yeah.
And uh he says, You know, yoursis the worst case I've ever
seen.
And this is like a 70-year-oldman telling me this.
SPEAKER_00 (12:58):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (12:58):
And I was like, Wow, you're kidding.
And he turns around and he andhe leaves after he's checking my
stitches and you know, doing allthe stuff that he had to do.
He turns back around and hesays, You know, I said it was
the worst case I've ever seen,but that's not exactly true.
Yours is the worst case I'veever seen where the patient
lived.
And he actually said to me,God's not done with you yet.
(13:18):
He said that to you.
He said that to me, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:22):
Nice to hear.
How did that make you feel whenyou heard that from him?
SPEAKER_01 (13:26):
I thought, you know, maybe there's more to the story.
Turns out there there was.
Um, you know, I I just so I Iwent on this.
Uh it's funny how how this wholething just sort of unfolded in
my life.
You know, I had this beautifulNDE.
And after then 24 hours later, Istarted developing pneumonia.
(13:48):
I could, I woke up, I couldbarely breathe.
And Jesus actually walked backinto the hospital room 24 hours
later, and I had a three-hourconversation with him.
Now, when I told people thatpart, yeah, uh, you know, like
my I came home and I told myfriends about the NDE, and
they're sitting there cryingwith me.
These are 45, 50-year-old menholding my hand, crying right
(14:09):
along with me as I'm tellingthis, this story.
And then I got to the part whereI said, Yeah, and Jesus came
back 24 hours later.
And you could just see that thethe expression on their face
went from, wow, this is amazing,to dude, you're crazy.
SPEAKER_00 (14:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:24):
You know?
And I thought, okay.
And I and I heard after aboutthe fifth person that I told, I
heard Jesus whisper to me, youdon't have to tell this part
yet.
And I thought, well, okay,that's good.
So I'm just gonna shut up aboutthat because I'm losing all
credibility here.
They're not gonna believe a wordI say now if I tell them that.
SPEAKER_00 (14:42):
Sure.
Can I ask a question here?
Number one, when you're on theoperating table, did you feel as
though your spirit wentsomewhere, or were you just
closing your eyes and thenyou're waking, awake up with a
whole new set of visuals?
SPEAKER_01 (14:56):
It was uh it was it was very strange.
It wasn't like you know, youhear a lot of near-death
experience.
People say they hovered abovetheir body, they could see what
was going on.
That didn't happen to me.
Mine was like a physical thing.
Jesus touched my hand, I felthis hand as a physical person,
and all of a sudden I'm gone.
(15:17):
So it was just this superphysical, heightened awareness.
SPEAKER_00 (15:21):
Yeah, yeah.
And when you were speaking toyour friends about the first
aspect of your NDE, people yousaid that grown men were were
crying and you know, listeningwarming to your story.
That's really beautiful.
Did you question yourself whenyou have these uh unusual
(15:42):
heightened experiences?
SPEAKER_01 (15:44):
You know, I never really questioned it because I
knew I knew what I went through.
Yeah, um, and I knew how real itwas.
It was it was hard to believe,but I knew what happened.
Yeah, and then as I as Istarted, you know, starting to
think about it, I thought, well,maybe it was just hallucination.
And then I thought, well,hallucinations don't take you
(16:06):
somewhere.
I can't, I don't feel things asa hallucination.
If it, you know, it should havejust gone away if it was just
hallucination.
And then I don't know, the asI've gone, this happened 20
years ago, 21 years ago now.
As I've gone through this, it'slike I can hear the voice of God
talk to me, sometimes audibly.
(16:27):
And I and like there's this onecrazy time that I heard him say,
I want you to give a thousanddollars to this church function
that we were doing.
And and this voice in my earsays, I want you to give a
thousand dollars.
And I go through all thisquestioning, like, are you
talking to me, Jesus?
And you know, it was the samevoice.
And then so I ended up givingthe thousand dollars, and the
(16:48):
voice said, You'll get it back.
So the next day I go home and inmy in my stock trading account,
one of my stocks had gone up byexactly a thousand dollars.
I I cash out and I got thethousand bucks back, like the
very next day.
So it's like, oh, that wasJesus, and he's he's tested me
to see if I can hear him.
SPEAKER_00 (17:06):
You know, you talk a lot about faith, but you know,
each of us have to have our ownsense of faith.
Your experience uh allows us togo, wow, this is possible, this
is happening.
Well, it might not be happeningto me, but I believe the
authenticity of Mike's story andso many other near-death
experiences of people.
(17:27):
I've had my own unusualexperiences that I haven't
actually even voiced on my showyet, and I've been going for six
years because there's a couplethat's like wow.
And I'm still kind of waiting toshare.
But you know, you talk aboutfaith.
How how can we increase ourfaith?
(17:47):
I mean, we haven't even talkedabout our second part of your
your you know, we came back tosay I really want to get there,
but I really just want to talkabout this word faith because we
need it.
We need faith.
Your story brings to mind thatyou know your life.
You weren't finished yet.
Right?
In my experience, I had a carcrash at the age of 19 and I
(18:08):
went through the windscreen andthere's nothing on my face.
I've only got a few cuts on myback, and I've told this story
on my podcast before, but youknow, I I crashed that car at
110 miles an hour rolling on awet uh winter's night, and a
friend of mine had one stitch inhis head, and yet we walked away
unscathed.
I thought to myself, oh, well,I've been spared, you know.
(18:32):
I've been spared.
I've got to find out at mytender young age how to help
people because my life now isn'tjust about me, you know, and
even with all my logicalthinking at that time, it
couldn't work out how I walkedaway from that, just a bit like
yours.
So, you know, faith, Mike, whatdoes that mean to you?
SPEAKER_01 (18:56):
Well, first, let me just say that um, you know, the
surgeon came in and said, God'snot done with me yet.
Uh, I think the same thing couldhave been said for you and after
that car crash.
It wasn't up with you.
You know, there's there'spurpose, there's a purpose for
everyone's life.
And uh faith is uh it's ajourney, you know, for some of
us.
We just have faith in God, webelieve in uh, you know, in in
(19:19):
Jesus, and uh we just take it,it's easier for us to
understand.
I have this analytical mindthat, you know, I've always said
I need to take apart a watch tosee the gears and the springs to
know how it works.
And that was one of the thingsthat I kept asking, Jesus, are
you sure this is real?
Does this really happen?
And he kept talking to me,saying, Yes, it's real, it's
really happening.
(19:40):
You're not imagining this.
Um, but I think um I think thethe best place to start in faith
is is to just start asking God,reveal yourself to me.
Let me let open my eyes, let mesee this.
Because it's easy for me becauseI look around at the beautiful
world that we live in.
And I think there's there's onlyone, there's only one way that
(20:03):
this could happen.
And I know, you know,unbelievers will look at it and
go, well, yeah, it was the BigBang or whatever.
But to me, it just doesn't makesense.
Nothing, nothing makes senseexcept that God created it
because it all works so welltogether.
SPEAKER_00 (20:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:17):
Um, but we were not created with the ability to
comprehend that.
We can't, we cannot ever get tothe point where we can say,
okay, I understand eternity, Iunderstand how God could be here
forever, because it doesn't workin our mind.
But uh, you know, a lot ofpeople will take the other way.
They'll go, okay, well, carbondating or science or you know,
(20:40):
global warming, this this iseasy stuff for me to get my my
head around because I understandit and I comprehend it.
Uh I don't think we're evergoing to get to the point.
I mean, even with me, I've I'veheard God's voice, I've seen
proof of the existence of God,but uh but I still question
faith sometimes.
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (21:00):
Everybody does.
I think I like to leave it up toeverybody.
And it does bring with it asense of compassion after you go
through something really tough.
Maybe someone you love haspassed away, or maybe you're on
a massive health crisis, scare,or something.
You know, it means that you haveto turn to something, an energy.
Some people call it theuniverse, some people call it
(21:21):
life, God, Jesus.
It does it doesn't matter whatyou call it.
I really, really believe thatenergy is an aspect of us that
we just have to tune and tapinto.
And then when we do that,there's this shelter, there's
this comfort, but that requiresfaith to even ask.
Because if you don't ask, itwon't reveal itself sometimes.
Right, right.
(21:42):
Um, and you've got to come froma place of even asking, even if
you've got any doubts.
Like, look, if you are of there,show me.
Show me.
Right.
And but you've got to get tothat place, right?
It's like, you know, I've heardall of these things, I've
watched all of these shows, youknow, I've read books, but
ultimately I haven't had my ownexperience.
unknown (22:01):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (22:02):
And so when we have the gift of you on the show,
Mike, you know, you've had yourexperience, you can share it.
When you were in the ICU, youwere there for a few days, but
you said within 24 hours he wasback, and you were reluctant to
share the message.
So I use that.
SPEAKER_01 (22:15):
I wasn't ready.
When I was in the ICU 24 hourslater, I woke up, I couldn't
breathe.
I mean, I was really strugglingto breathe.
I was so weak I couldn't pick myhands up off my chest.
That's how sick I was.
Um, and I woke up and I had thecall, they put the call button
on my chest, so they, you know,because they knew how bad I was.
SPEAKER_00 (22:36):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (22:36):
So I pushed the button and I and I tell the
lady, I can't breathe, thenurse.
And she comes running in and shelistens to my chest through a
stethoscope, and I'll neverforget her words.
She says, Oh, honey, you'redeveloping pneumonia.
And my first thought was, Great,pneumonia.
That's why Jesus showed meheaven because I'm gonna die.
(22:57):
That's that's where I'm going.
He wanted to comfort me before Idied.
And she calls in about threeother nurses, they packed me in
ice.
I had still 104 temperature.
They packed me in ice, they putoxygen in my nose, they gave me
this spirometer to breathe into.
She props it up on my chest, sheputs this thing in my mouth, and
(23:17):
you're supposed to blow into itto raise this little marble, you
know, to get your lungs working,to get some air flowing.
And she says, do that 10 timesan hour.
And so everybody else left, andI just feel this holy presence
enter the rooms.
Best way I can describe it.
And she sat down, one of thenurses, the original nurse, sat
(23:38):
down in a chair next to me.
And she says, I'm gonna keep aneye on you, keep reminding you
to breathe into this brometer.
And all of a sudden I hear thevoice of Jesus again, but I
can't see him this time.
But it's like he picked up achair and sat down.
He's at the end of my bed, but Icannot see him.
And so I'm thinking, man, thisis really weird.
Um, but uh, the first thing hesays is, uh, I had to get you
(24:02):
away from the distractions andput you flat on your back so you
could hear me.
And it was like an audiblevoice, like someone was standing
at the end of the bed talking tome.
But like I said, I couldn't seehim.
And I thought, wow, you know,away from the distractions.
Now I had a really stressfuljob.
I had kids in athletics, so Iwas running around.
(24:23):
We're raising four kids.
One of them, of course, was off,you know, off and gotten
married.
Um, but it was just superstressful job, stressful life,
running in and out.
I was running all theseorganizations, doing coaching,
and there was just never amoment of rest.
It was just, and every day itwas the same lather, rinse,
repeat.
Get up in the morning, go towork super early, come home,
(24:46):
throw the baseball equipment orwhatever.
And you know, it was justraising kids was just hectic.
And so I didn't have time forGod.
I didn't have time, I barely hadtime for church.
Every once in a while we'd go tochurch because I thought it was
good for the kids, but didn'treally mean anything to me.
SPEAKER_00 (25:01):
I I love that because you don't have to be a
big believer for something um unincredible to happen.
SPEAKER_01 (25:07):
It is incredible.
No, no, and I and I wasn't.
And you know, I I had I ifsomebody said, Are you a
Christian?
I'd say, Yeah, of course.
Uh, but it just, like I said,didn't mean anything to me.
Uh it was just what you did onSunday, Sunday mornings.
That was it.
Sunday afternoon, you come home,you watch the football games,
and you know, you forget allabout Sunday or Sunday school.
And um, so he says, I'm I'mcalling you out to do more for
(25:32):
my kingdom.
And I thought, well, you know,I'm about to die here, so what
am I gonna do?
And he says, You're gonna make afull recovery, and at at the
right time, I'm gonna call callyou out to do more for my
kingdom and tell our story.
And he said, Our story is goingto reach millions.
And I kind of laughed.
(25:53):
I said, You got the wrong guy.
I'm not Billy Graham.
Now, if you think about like 20years ago, most of my story's
been heard on YouTube.
We have NDE story and NDchannels telling the stories,
millions of views, millions ofviews, podcasts, yeah.
Yeah, so that part of it cametrue.
(26:13):
It took 20 years, but uh youknow, when I finally went public
with my story, um when was thatguy posted posted contacted me
and they wanted to put my NDEstory in one of their books, and
I thought, well, I better dosome marketing for them, you
know, help them sell some books.
Um, and so that I contacted apodcaster, and that first one
(26:34):
led to a lot more, you know,it's it's just the NDE community
has is pretty tight.
Yeah.
So when he said you're gonnatalk to millions, I thought, you
know, Billy Graham standing infront of this this big crowd of
you know, hundreds of thousandsof people.
And I said, That's not me.
I mean, I'm not comfortabletalking in front of a crowd.
And he just chuckled, you know,like you like you have two
(26:58):
ideas, right?
Yeah, um, so that part of it didcome true.
Um, and he said, you know, hejust pretty much told me you're
you're gonna have uh somevalleys to walk through, but uh
I'll I'll carry you through it.
You're gonna have some tough,tough things that go on, and I
and I did.
SPEAKER_00 (27:15):
But ultimately, when you're trying to speak your
truth, you're gonna be tested,you know.
Sure.
And speaking truth is not alwayseasy, but as long as it's honest
from you, that's the only thingthat's important.
I think we're all designed to bebuilt differently and question,
and and I think that's healthy.
I don't think it's healthy forus all to think the same thing.
(27:36):
No, but I I do think it'shealthy to question, and I think
your story will make peoplequestion.
And if people attack, it's onlybecause they haven't asked the
right question yet.
That's all my and I think thatif you're unsure, question
everything until you get yourown experience, your own
feeling.
So I think that some of thosecontrasting moments that you
might have experienced or haveexperienced are just people
(27:59):
still trying to catch up, tryingto ask those right questions.
But naturally that's part ofyour journey of speaking the
truth, which you were reluctantto in the first place.
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (28:10):
Yeah, that that's important.
But everybody, like you said,everybody's on their own
journey.
Everyone's on their journey.
It's gonna happen at at theright time.
That yeah, you know, but justyou know, that's that's kind of
my whole message, too, is juststay curious, you know.
Yeah, dig into it, you know, dodo your own research.
And um, maybe I hate to say it,but maybe not all on YouTube.
SPEAKER_00 (28:31):
But um, you know, I think when you ask really good
questions, I think life has awonderful way of showing you
answers to those questions.
I remember when I was firstcurious and uh after the car
crash a few years later, I wasstill drinking heavily and I and
I was like, I don't know if I'mgonna be able to continue living
at this rate because the pain isso much from the the contrast
(28:54):
and the emotional that I'mfeeling.
And then I remember like asking,I was like, look, there's got to
be more to life than what I'mseeing, even though I'd been to
church.
I'd grown up going to church,but I I hadn't quite grasped
really what it was all about.
It felt quite dogmatic.
But I received a book from afriend the next day and I
devoured it.
(29:14):
A book, and I was like, man,this is answering a lot of
questions.
And from that book, a load ofother books came into my
experience.
And I from about the year 2000onwards, I devoured thousands
and thousands of books until oneday, in my experience, I was
like, that's enough, you can putthe books away now.
Now it's time to share.
And I was like, whoa, nor me,whoa, whoa, whoa, nor me.
(29:37):
I'm flawed.
I was like, that's exactly whyyou're I want you to be a
messenger.
Yeah.
That's exactly why you want youto be a messenger.
And after lots of pain andsuffering and breakups, now it's
your time, off you go.
And that was six years ago,Mike.
So I understand where you'recoming from, but also I'm
listening and really feeling thepeople tuning in today.
(30:00):
Listening to this episode to go,listen, question as much as
possible.
Like Mike said, be curious.
SPEAKER_01 (30:05):
Yep, absolutely.
Very important.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:08):
So what what did he say when he came in?
You know, he said, Look, I Iunderstand I want you to share,
teach millions of people.
Was there anything else as aswell as that?
SPEAKER_01 (30:18):
Um it was just, you know, pretty much this is what I
want you to do.
Um, and did he give you anyspecificity what he wanted you
to do?
You know, it's a that's funnythat you ask that because I I
always ask for specifics.
I always say, What does thatmean?
You know, tell me more.
What what does that mean?
What's that gonna look like?
(30:39):
Am I supposed to write a book?
Am I supposed to, you know, whatam I supposed to do?
And it's always dead silence.
Anytime I've heard Jesus talk tome, it's always the details are
up to me.
Okay, you know, and and I wishyou would just say, Here's what
I want you to do.
I want you to write a book, Iwant you to go to this, you
know, church and talk to thesepeople and do this and this.
(31:00):
No, it's just all, it's all no.
I want you to tell our story,and that's it.
You know, the rest details areup to me.
SPEAKER_00 (31:10):
So I love that.
That's beautiful because then itgives you the choice, the free
will, so to speak, to be able toshare your truth.
When did you start sharing thethe story, actually, Mike?
How long ago was it?
Because the experience was like21 years ago.
But when was it when you beganto actually reach out and share
(31:30):
the story on YouTube and otherareas?
SPEAKER_01 (31:34):
Uh it was it was about it was almost 20 years ago
after it happened.
So I was reading an onlinecomment.
Uh well, that was that was toget to the second part.
I was reading an online commentthat said, um your hallucination
was caused by your hightemperature.
(31:55):
And I used to always think, whenI've read those comments, I used
to think, Well, my temperaturewhen Jesus was in the room
talking to me for those threehours, after the first hour, the
nurse checked my temperature andwas down to 100.
So I thought, well, that's nothigh enough to cause a
hallucination.
And it happened for two hoursafter that.
Uh the first time I startedsharing was when Guidepost
printed my story in their intheir book, uh, Glimpses of
(32:18):
Eternity.
And I was watching a podcast onon YouTube, and I just heard
that same voice, Jesus' voice,say, I want you to contact this
guy.
And I thought he was talkingabout the guest, because the
guest was a religious guy.
Okay.
And he was talking a lot aboutJesus.
And I thought, well, okay, I'llfigure out how to get a hold of
(32:38):
him, you know.
Um, and then I realized thatwhen I looked up his
information, the same voice wassaying, No, you're supposed to
contact the host.
And so I did, and like within aweek, I was in his office.
He lives about three hours awayfrom me.
I was in his office and he has astudio downstairs in his in his
(33:01):
house.
SPEAKER_00 (33:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:02):
And I was down there recording the whole message.
He calls me a couple of dayslater and he says, That was a
great interview.
I spent three hours with theguy, over three hours in his
studio doing this first podcast.
Sure.
He called me and he says, Hey,we lost all the audio.
I don't know what happened.
He said, I checked the audiobefore we started.
I checked it, you know, we tooka break.
(33:23):
I checked it during the it wasall there.
He says, We're gonna have to doit again.
I mean, unless unless you justwant to do something else, you
know, meet meet me halfway.
SPEAKER_00 (33:32):
I have to ask you a question.
Were you really anxious to tellthe story?
Did you have a fear inside ofyou of some sort?
SPEAKER_01 (33:37):
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (33:38):
I did.
Yeah.
I don't I definitely I wouldlove to say that everything in
this world after understandingenergy now for the last 20 years
is that everything is a responseto the energy we're emitting.
So when we've got fear, that canshow up and not uh uh a video or
an audio coming on.
I know that because that'shappened to me when I've done
(33:59):
these podcasts.
I've had somebody in I was like,I was so anxious, and then when
I got it, I didn't have thevisual.
I was like, oh no.
But I managed to put out theaudio, but not the visual.
And I know how I was feelingwhen I was going in there
because it was one of my firstauthors that I had spoken to,
and and I was like, so I knowhow it feels to know how it
(34:21):
feels to feel like you've gotanxiety or fear before.
But I know that as soon as yousort of get up to speed with the
rhythm of sharing a story, it'snot a big deal anymore because
it's just part of Mike, it's anextension.
Yeah, that's true.
Very true.
What do you feel like the mainmessage that you've taken away
from this near-death experience?
SPEAKER_01 (34:41):
Yeah, I think I think it's kind of what you were
talking about, you know, justgiving people some hope, you
know, that that we don't just goin the ground and and become
worm dirt, you know, or wormfood.
We there's there's life afterthis life, and and that's that
should give everybody hope thatthere's a better place.
Um it's cliche, you know.
(35:02):
Somebody dies and they sayyou're he's in a better place.
Well, it's true, but it's justso hard to imagine.
Um, but then that gets back tothe curiosity, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (35:13):
You've had a personal experience of a glimpse
of that better place, and thenyou're brought back to say, hey,
it's okay.
I mean, my dear uncle passedaway yesterday, and that's okay.
And I knew when I saw him atEaster time this year, I I felt
that was the last time I wasgonna see him physically.
But it's nice to know from yourexperience that there is a
(35:36):
beautiful place that that wewill go to when this physical
life is finished, our infinitelife won't finish, but this
physical suit will have itstime.
It's how do you make use of yourtime now?
I know you're renovating yourhouse and you're doing a massive
job right now.
Yeah.
Yeah, but from that heightenedexperience that seems so vivid
(36:00):
and real, and you've been ableto disclose that with us so
openly and beautifully, Mark,you know, how how do you take
that into your day-to-day life?
SPEAKER_01 (36:08):
What I've done is just said, okay, Jesus wants me
to tell this story, so that's mymission in life.
I'm I'm gonna share it with asmany people as as I possibly
can.
Um, you know, when when he'sthere's another there's another
crazy part too to this to thiswhole thing.
Um as I'm reading this thisother comment where that I told
(36:34):
you about just a minute agoabout the hallucination, sure,
high fever, I hear the audiblevoice say, now's the time to
tell the whole story.
And it's the same voice, samevoice of Jesus.
He says, Now's the time to tellthe whole story.
The world is ready, and so areyou.
Hold nothing back.
(36:54):
And I thought, okay, well, thethe world is ready.
Yeah.
And I thought, I'm ready.
And I thought, you know, this is20 years afterwards.
I was very reluctant to tell anypart of the story in the
beginning.
But I thought, what's changed inme in 20 years?
And I have become, um, as I'vegotten older, I've become more
(37:15):
empathetic.
I don't, I don't get mad atsomebody for not believing me,
because I, you know, I wouldtell a few friends about the NDE
and they look at me like you'renuts.
And back then I would just go,well, screw you.
I don't care what you think.
And I thought, well, that's nota very good representation of
Jesus, you know.
So you gotta work on your ownheart.
But he did, he changed me.
(37:36):
And and now I, if somebody says,I don't believe you, I say, I'm
sorry you feel that way.
And do you mind if I pray foryou that you have an open mind,
that you that you become curiousand you know, and do a little
searching on your own.
And uh, so that's that that wasthe big change for me during
those 20 years.
SPEAKER_00 (37:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:55):
When he told me, tell the whole story.
That's when I wrote the newbook.
And, you know, I just I put inall the crazy God stories that I
have.
And yeah, well, remind us of thetitle of the book so people can
like order it and read it.
SPEAKER_00 (38:08):
The book is called I Held the Hand of Jesus in
Heaven.
I have that.
I'll have I'll make sure we havea link for that so you guys can
read it.
Mike, it's been an absolute joyspeaking to you, very inspiring
and enlightening.
And and I think that the themain word here to take away is
hope.
And and I think faith is anotherword I really think is important
(38:28):
today.
And I think that we can all holdhope in our hearts in our own
way when whether whatever we'regoing through, maybe there's a
health challenge, a financialchallenge, you know, a f any
type of challenge, a death, youknow, this makes us like feel
like there's got to be more.
And I think that if anyone'slistening to this, you are made
for more.
(38:48):
You just might have forgottentemporarily.
And I think that sometimestuning into that higher aspect
of yourself, gee, God, Jesus,energy, universe, whatever you
wish to call it, I just thinkit's really important that you
tune and tap into it becauseyou're gonna get guidance.
And and I think Mike's story isa a wonderful display and
(39:10):
sharing of that guidance that hegot.
What thing could you share withpeople to take into everyday
life?
SPEAKER_01 (39:15):
Yeah, I'd say just um, you know, be be patient in
and appreciate God's beautifulcreation here.
You know, death becomes part ofof this earth.
Uh, but you look around, I mean,the there's beauty everywhere.
There's sunsets.
Man, my picture, my my phone isfull of pictures of sunsets and
flowers, and I just can't getenough of it.
(39:37):
Um, but just stay curious andstay hopeful.
SPEAKER_00 (39:40):
Beautiful.
Well, thank you, Mike.
Mike McKinsey is this week'ssuper soul model.
Thank you very much.
Thanks so much, James.
Thanks for listening.
If you've enjoyed this episode,please remember to like,
subscribe, and share.
They wheel me into surgery before they put any mask
on, before they gave me anymedication.
I'm I get slid over from thegurney to the surgical table,
and I look to my right, andJesus walks into the operating
room.
It was like the surgeon walkedin, but it's Jesus wearing a
white robe.
(00:24):
And I look at him like, what theheck is going on here?
SPEAKER_00 (00:28):
Hello and welcome to the James Granstrom Podcast
Super Soul Model Series.
This week we are joined by MikeMcKinsey.
Mike is an accomplished authorand real estate investor whose
life took a profound turn backin 2004 with a near-death
experience.
The moment became a catalyst forMike with deep exploration in
consciousness, spirituality, andthe interconnectedness of life.
(00:49):
Grounded in his Christian faithand guided by firsthand insight
into the afterlife, Mike's workinvites others to see life
through the lens of divinepurpose, love, and awakening.
Welcome to this episode, Mike.
Thanks so much for having me,James.
I appreciate it.
Thank you, Mike.
So tell us a little bit aboutthe beginning of how the
(01:09):
near-death experience all cameabout.
I think if you cast us back toabout 2004, that's probably um
well.
SPEAKER_01 (01:18):
We've traveled about five hours away from our home to
to attend my son's wedding.
He was living down on the coastin California.
And um so we got there like Ithink four days early.
We got there on a Wednesday.
The wedding was going to be on aSaturday.
And my boys, my other two boyswanted to play baseball, so they
(01:38):
brought their wiffle balls andand bats.
And we went out to the park andplayed some baseball.
So I did a lot of uh a lot ofphysical activity, a lot of
twisting that I normally don'tdo.
I was a baseball coach for along time, but I didn't really
play that hard, you know.
But we played for a couplehours.
And uh man, Wednesday night Istarted feeling sick, and I
thought, gosh, great time to geta flu.
(02:00):
You know, my son's wedding'scoming up on Saturday.
Uh so I just kind of passed itoff as no big deal.
Thursday I got sicker.
Friday we had the rehearsaldinner.
I got really sick then.
And um Friday night before thewedding, I didn't sleep at all
because I was just in so muchpain.
Um but I didn't, I didn't reallyknow what it was.
(02:20):
My son was in the medical fieldand we were sitting at the bar
after uh after the rehearsaldinner having a glass of wine.
And he says, You know, Dad,maybe it's your appendix.
And I said, I don't think so,Ben.
You know, it's it, I don't havethat point tenderness.
You know, they always say youcan touch that one little spot
and you go through the roof.
But um I didn't have that.
And I just I just said, Yeah, Ithink it's the flu.
(02:43):
And he says, you know, youshould probably get checked out.
And I said, Well, you know,after after the wedding, I'll
I'll go to the hospital, getchecked out before we before we
travel back home.
And uh so we made it through therehearsal dinner or through the
wedding.
Wedding was beautiful.
It was on a golf course outthere, wedding was you know, the
weather was perfect.
Um, and then after the weddingwas over, the reception and all
(03:07):
that, I told them I gotta go getchecked out because by then I
was sweating.
I'd checked my temperature, itwas 104.
Okay, and I was just reallypale.
Uh, all the wedding pictures, myfavorite ones are the ones in
black and white because youcan't see how pale I am.
SPEAKER_00 (03:22):
You didn't do like a ghost or something.
SPEAKER_01 (03:24):
Oh, it's terrible.
Um, so anyway, I go to thehospital and and I'm laying back
in the emergency room, and thelady's kind of pushing on my my
stomach, and she says, You know,I think that's your appendix.
It sounds a lot like yourappendix.
And she's pushing on my abdomen.
She says, Does that hurt?
And I said, No, not really.
I mean, I I think I just got theflu.
(03:45):
I'm telling a nurse, you know,what my problem is, right?
Um, she says, Well, I think it'syour appendix.
And so she takes out this littlerubber mallet and she taps the
bottom of my foot and she says,Does that hurt?
And I said, No, I kind oflaughed.
I thought, you know, why are youchecking my feet?
It's weird.
But then she tapped the otherfoot, and man, the pain in my
(04:07):
abdomen made me scream.
And she says, Okay, that's yourappendix.
It's probably ruptured.
She says, Uh, have you done anylike physical activity in the
last couple of days?
And I said, Well, you know,Wednesday, I played some
baseball in the park with mykids for a couple hours, and her
expression changed.
You could just see like panicset in.
(04:28):
She says, Wednesday, and she'sthinking, Thursday, Friday,
Saturday, this is three days.
If your appendix ruptured, thenuh we have to get you back there
pretty quick.
So she called in a surgeon.
They wheel me into surgery, andum before they put any mask on,
before they gave me anymedication, I'm I get slid over
(04:51):
from the gurney to the surgicaltable, and I look to my right,
and Jesus walks into theoperating room.
It was like it was like thesurgeon walked in, but it's
Jesus wearing a white robe.
Right.
And I look at him like, what theheck is going on here?
You know, and I kind of lookedback at at the rest of the room
(05:14):
and just sort of all faded away,like it just got all like foggy
and like with these um like likesparkly fog.
It was really weird.
And Jesus walks up to me and heholds out his hand and he says,
I want to answer your prayer.
Now I'm thinking, my prayer, youknow.
I before I went in, I said alittle prayer that everything
(05:36):
would go well, and sure doesn'tlook like it's gonna go too
well.
Jesus is taking me to heavenhere, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (05:42):
Yeah, because uh what was he wearing?
What you know, like becausethere's you must have surgeons
in the room, and then suddenlyJesus is in front of you.
SPEAKER_01 (05:49):
Yeah, uh he was he was the only person that I could
see, but it was a very physicalencounter, like it, like I said,
like like I thought he was asurgeon.
He's wearing a white robe, goesall the way down to the floor.
Uh he had darker skin than whatI than what I had been shown as
a kid, you know.
As a as a kid in in California,uh I was shown a blonde-haired,
(06:12):
blue-eyed Jesus, and he was notblonde-haired and blue-eyed.
He did have deep green, uh,greenish, almost blue eyes, but
they were very dark green.
unknown (06:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:23):
Uh he had, like I said, dark skin, um, looked like
an Arab man, uh, which was, likeI said, totally because that's
the part of the region where hehe was born.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Which makes sense.
But you know, as a kid, I neverreally thought about it.
Um, and his hair was kind ofwavy about down to his
shoulders, a little past hisshoulders.
unknown (06:44):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (06:44):
And um I I I could just I felt this love radiing,
radiating from him.
Um, and I've always said whenhis eyes looked into my eyes, he
looked into my soul.
It was like he was my my father,my brother, my best friend, all
wrapped up in one.
(07:06):
And and so he's holding out hishand, saying he wants to answer
my prayer.
And I I thought, well, if I takehis hand, like, am I is that it?
Am I dead?
You know, I I figured maybe so,but what are you gonna do?
Jesus says, I want to answeryour prayer and holds out his
hand.
I can't really say no.
So I I grab his hand immediatelywhen I touched his hand.
(07:29):
I found myself standing on thisgrassy hill, still holding his
hand, and I'm looking around,and everything is white, like
the whitest white I've everseen.
I I can't really see anythingexcept the grass below my feet.
And my senses were heightened tothe point where I could count
every single blade of grass thatwas touching my feet.
(07:51):
It was like I knew instantly howmany blades of grass there were.
And so I'm looking around andthen I see, like kind of off to
my right at about my my height,there's this round, almost
basketball-sized light that'slighter than the rest of the
light, and it's kind ofshimmering, and it starts
(08:12):
sending off these light beams,like coming towards me.
And they look like fluorescentlight tubes, but they're short,
they're a couple feet long,they're smooth, they're a little
bit fatter than fluorescentlight tubes.
And one of them comes at me andhits me right in the forehead.
And as it hits me, it makes thiskind of like a light buzzing
(08:33):
sound.
And when it goes through me, itwarmed me like all the way down
to my feet.
It was really an amazingfeeling.
And then as I look back wherethese things are coming from,
it's like somebody took acurtain, the white, the all that
white that was in front of me,it was like it was a curtain and
somebody pulled it from my rightto my left, and it just revealed
(08:53):
this beautiful scenery.
So now I see at the bottom of, Iam standing on a hill.
At the bottom of the hill, thereare there are these uh like
beautiful pastel colors um offlowers, and they're kind of
dancing like they're likethere's a little bit of wind,
uh, but there's no wind.
(09:14):
And at the bottom of that hill,there's a huge city, but that
white, that white fog settled inthe city in the valley.
So all I can see is rooftopssticking through the fog.
And there's um there's this biggiant like golden dome almost in
the middle, but uh way off inthe this city's huge, it's like
(09:35):
miles across.
And there's other golden domesthat are sticking through the
fog, and there's a lot of likewhite rooftops too, like and
there's a lot of church steeplesthat look like church steeples,
but they didn't have crosses onthe top of them, which I thought
was odd, because all all thesteeples that I've seen have a
cross at the top, or almost allof them, and then on the other
(09:58):
side of that city there'sanother mountain, and that's a
big mountain.
Uh, and it's covered in thesepine trees.
They look like pine trees, butthey're just perfectly shaped.
And now all of a sudden, allthose light beams that were
coming at me are going acrossthe city, across the tops of the
buildings, and they're goingover and they hit the trees.
(10:22):
And when they hit these trees,there was like uh it was like
they had diamonds on the tips ofthem because when one light beam
hit it, it burst into hundredsof tiny light beams.
And they were just like goingoff all over the place.
And there they were um they werecontrasted by the sky behind it
(10:43):
that was it was like the mostbeautiful sunset I've ever seen,
but there was no sun.
So there's you know the skyabove these trees is like reds
and and oranges and just supervivid colors, and these things
are popping everywhere, and it'slike fireworks, but they were
all white.
And I just thought, wow, this isjust so amazing.
(11:05):
I just stood there in awe and Ilook back at to to where the
where they were coming from,these light beams, and Jesus
says to me, It's the glory ofthe Lord.
And when he said that, I justgot weak in my knees.
I got so filled with emotion, Icouldn't stand.
And so I fell to my knees, andthe instant my knees hit the
(11:28):
ground, they shocked me in thehospital and they brought me
back.
So now instead of this beautifulscenery, I've got a doctor
leaning over me wearing a mask,and he says, Do you know your
name?
And I'm thinking, like, what theheck?
Where, you know, where did thisbeautiful scenery go?
Where'd Jesus go?
And he says, Again, do you knowyour name?
(11:51):
And so I my throat was likereally dry, uh, probably from
the anesthesia.
And I I struggled to get my nameout, but I did say Mike.
And he says, Okay, good, do youknow where you are?
And I said, Ventura, that wasthe city on the coast where the
where the wedding was.
And um, he says, Okay, good,he's back.
(12:12):
And now he starts talking toother people in the room, and I
realize that there's like fiveor six other nurses, they're all
wearing these blue scrubs,running around.
And I look and I see the crashcart.
One of one of the people areputting the paddles back on the
crash cart and they wheel it byme.
And he says, uh, he says, Let'sget him up to ICU.
Um, and so I spent uh about fourdays in ICU and 12 days in the
(12:36):
hospital.
I developed a few complications,so it took me quite a while.
So the next next day, I thoughtthis was interesting.
The next day, the surgeon comesin and he says, uh, he says, Oh,
glad to see you stuck around.
I hear we had a little incidentlast night.
And I said, Yeah.
And uh he says, You know, yoursis the worst case I've ever
seen.
And this is like a 70-year-oldman telling me this.
SPEAKER_00 (12:58):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (12:58):
And I was like, Wow, you're kidding.
And he turns around and he andhe leaves after he's checking my
stitches and you know, doing allthe stuff that he had to do.
He turns back around and hesays, You know, I said it was
the worst case I've ever seen,but that's not exactly true.
Yours is the worst case I'veever seen where the patient
lived.
And he actually said to me,God's not done with you yet.
(13:18):
He said that to you.
He said that to me, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (13:22):
Nice to hear.
How did that make you feel whenyou heard that from him?
SPEAKER_01 (13:26):
I thought, you know, maybe there's more to the story.
Turns out there there was.
Um, you know, I I just so I Iwent on this.
Uh it's funny how how this wholething just sort of unfolded in
my life.
You know, I had this beautifulNDE.
And after then 24 hours later, Istarted developing pneumonia.
(13:48):
I could, I woke up, I couldbarely breathe.
And Jesus actually walked backinto the hospital room 24 hours
later, and I had a three-hourconversation with him.
Now, when I told people thatpart, yeah, uh, you know, like
my I came home and I told myfriends about the NDE, and
they're sitting there cryingwith me.
These are 45, 50-year-old menholding my hand, crying right
(14:09):
along with me as I'm tellingthis, this story.
And then I got to the part whereI said, Yeah, and Jesus came
back 24 hours later.
And you could just see that thethe expression on their face
went from, wow, this is amazing,to dude, you're crazy.
SPEAKER_00 (14:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:24):
You know?
And I thought, okay.
And I and I heard after aboutthe fifth person that I told, I
heard Jesus whisper to me, youdon't have to tell this part
yet.
And I thought, well, okay,that's good.
So I'm just gonna shut up aboutthat because I'm losing all
credibility here.
They're not gonna believe a wordI say now if I tell them that.
SPEAKER_00 (14:42):
Sure.
Can I ask a question here?
Number one, when you're on theoperating table, did you feel as
though your spirit wentsomewhere, or were you just
closing your eyes and thenyou're waking, awake up with a
whole new set of visuals?
SPEAKER_01 (14:56):
It was uh it was it was very strange.
It wasn't like you know, youhear a lot of near-death
experience.
People say they hovered abovetheir body, they could see what
was going on.
That didn't happen to me.
Mine was like a physical thing.
Jesus touched my hand, I felthis hand as a physical person,
and all of a sudden I'm gone.
(15:17):
So it was just this superphysical, heightened awareness.
SPEAKER_00 (15:21):
Yeah, yeah.
And when you were speaking toyour friends about the first
aspect of your NDE, people yousaid that grown men were were
crying and you know, listeningwarming to your story.
That's really beautiful.
Did you question yourself whenyou have these uh unusual
(15:42):
heightened experiences?
SPEAKER_01 (15:44):
You know, I never really questioned it because I
knew I knew what I went through.
Yeah, um, and I knew how real itwas.
It was it was hard to believe,but I knew what happened.
Yeah, and then as I as Istarted, you know, starting to
think about it, I thought, well,maybe it was just hallucination.
And then I thought, well,hallucinations don't take you
(16:06):
somewhere.
I can't, I don't feel things asa hallucination.
If it, you know, it should havejust gone away if it was just
hallucination.
And then I don't know, the asI've gone, this happened 20
years ago, 21 years ago now.
As I've gone through this, it'slike I can hear the voice of God
talk to me, sometimes audibly.
(16:27):
And I and like there's this onecrazy time that I heard him say,
I want you to give a thousanddollars to this church function
that we were doing.
And and this voice in my earsays, I want you to give a
thousand dollars.
And I go through all thisquestioning, like, are you
talking to me, Jesus?
And you know, it was the samevoice.
And then so I ended up givingthe thousand dollars, and the
(16:48):
voice said, You'll get it back.
So the next day I go home and inmy in my stock trading account,
one of my stocks had gone up byexactly a thousand dollars.
I I cash out and I got thethousand bucks back, like the
very next day.
So it's like, oh, that wasJesus, and he's he's tested me
to see if I can hear him.
SPEAKER_00 (17:06):
You know, you talk a lot about faith, but you know,
each of us have to have our ownsense of faith.
Your experience uh allows us togo, wow, this is possible, this
is happening.
Well, it might not be happeningto me, but I believe the
authenticity of Mike's story andso many other near-death
experiences of people.
(17:27):
I've had my own unusualexperiences that I haven't
actually even voiced on my showyet, and I've been going for six
years because there's a couplethat's like wow.
And I'm still kind of waiting toshare.
But you know, you talk aboutfaith.
How how can we increase ourfaith?
(17:47):
I mean, we haven't even talkedabout our second part of your
your you know, we came back tosay I really want to get there,
but I really just want to talkabout this word faith because we
need it.
We need faith.
Your story brings to mind thatyou know your life.
You weren't finished yet.
Right?
In my experience, I had a carcrash at the age of 19 and I
(18:08):
went through the windscreen andthere's nothing on my face.
I've only got a few cuts on myback, and I've told this story
on my podcast before, but youknow, I I crashed that car at
110 miles an hour rolling on awet uh winter's night, and a
friend of mine had one stitch inhis head, and yet we walked away
unscathed.
I thought to myself, oh, well,I've been spared, you know.
(18:32):
I've been spared.
I've got to find out at mytender young age how to help
people because my life now isn'tjust about me, you know, and
even with all my logicalthinking at that time, it
couldn't work out how I walkedaway from that, just a bit like
yours.
So, you know, faith, Mike, whatdoes that mean to you?
SPEAKER_01 (18:56):
Well, first, let me just say that um, you know, the
surgeon came in and said, God'snot done with me yet.
Uh, I think the same thing couldhave been said for you and after
that car crash.
It wasn't up with you.
You know, there's there'spurpose, there's a purpose for
everyone's life.
And uh faith is uh it's ajourney, you know, for some of
us.
We just have faith in God, webelieve in uh, you know, in in
(19:19):
Jesus, and uh we just take it,it's easier for us to
understand.
I have this analytical mindthat, you know, I've always said
I need to take apart a watch tosee the gears and the springs to
know how it works.
And that was one of the thingsthat I kept asking, Jesus, are
you sure this is real?
Does this really happen?
And he kept talking to me,saying, Yes, it's real, it's
really happening.
(19:40):
You're not imagining this.
Um, but I think um I think thethe best place to start in faith
is is to just start asking God,reveal yourself to me.
Let me let open my eyes, let mesee this.
Because it's easy for me becauseI look around at the beautiful
world that we live in.
And I think there's there's onlyone, there's only one way that
(20:03):
this could happen.
And I know, you know,unbelievers will look at it and
go, well, yeah, it was the BigBang or whatever.
But to me, it just doesn't makesense.
Nothing, nothing makes senseexcept that God created it
because it all works so welltogether.
SPEAKER_00 (20:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (20:17):
Um, but we were not created with the ability to
comprehend that.
We can't, we cannot ever get tothe point where we can say,
okay, I understand eternity, Iunderstand how God could be here
forever, because it doesn't workin our mind.
But uh, you know, a lot ofpeople will take the other way.
They'll go, okay, well, carbondating or science or you know,
(20:40):
global warming, this this iseasy stuff for me to get my my
head around because I understandit and I comprehend it.
Uh I don't think we're evergoing to get to the point.
I mean, even with me, I've I'veheard God's voice, I've seen
proof of the existence of God,but uh but I still question
faith sometimes.
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (21:00):
Everybody does.
I think I like to leave it up toeverybody.
And it does bring with it asense of compassion after you go
through something really tough.
Maybe someone you love haspassed away, or maybe you're on
a massive health crisis, scare,or something.
You know, it means that you haveto turn to something, an energy.
Some people call it theuniverse, some people call it
(21:21):
life, God, Jesus.
It does it doesn't matter whatyou call it.
I really, really believe thatenergy is an aspect of us that
we just have to tune and tapinto.
And then when we do that,there's this shelter, there's
this comfort, but that requiresfaith to even ask.
Because if you don't ask, itwon't reveal itself sometimes.
Right, right.
(21:42):
Um, and you've got to come froma place of even asking, even if
you've got any doubts.
Like, look, if you are of there,show me.
Show me.
Right.
And but you've got to get tothat place, right?
It's like, you know, I've heardall of these things, I've
watched all of these shows, youknow, I've read books, but
ultimately I haven't had my ownexperience.
unknown (22:01):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (22:02):
And so when we have the gift of you on the show,
Mike, you know, you've had yourexperience, you can share it.
When you were in the ICU, youwere there for a few days, but
you said within 24 hours he wasback, and you were reluctant to
share the message.
So I use that.
SPEAKER_01 (22:15):
I wasn't ready.
When I was in the ICU 24 hourslater, I woke up, I couldn't
breathe.
I mean, I was really strugglingto breathe.
I was so weak I couldn't pick myhands up off my chest.
That's how sick I was.
Um, and I woke up and I had thecall, they put the call button
on my chest, so they, you know,because they knew how bad I was.
SPEAKER_00 (22:36):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (22:36):
So I pushed the button and I and I tell the
lady, I can't breathe, thenurse.
And she comes running in and shelistens to my chest through a
stethoscope, and I'll neverforget her words.
She says, Oh, honey, you'redeveloping pneumonia.
And my first thought was, Great,pneumonia.
That's why Jesus showed meheaven because I'm gonna die.
(22:57):
That's that's where I'm going.
He wanted to comfort me before Idied.
And she calls in about threeother nurses, they packed me in
ice.
I had still 104 temperature.
They packed me in ice, they putoxygen in my nose, they gave me
this spirometer to breathe into.
She props it up on my chest, sheputs this thing in my mouth, and
(23:17):
you're supposed to blow into itto raise this little marble, you
know, to get your lungs working,to get some air flowing.
And she says, do that 10 timesan hour.
And so everybody else left, andI just feel this holy presence
enter the rooms.
Best way I can describe it.
And she sat down, one of thenurses, the original nurse, sat
(23:38):
down in a chair next to me.
And she says, I'm gonna keep aneye on you, keep reminding you
to breathe into this brometer.
And all of a sudden I hear thevoice of Jesus again, but I
can't see him this time.
But it's like he picked up achair and sat down.
He's at the end of my bed, but Icannot see him.
And so I'm thinking, man, thisis really weird.
Um, but uh, the first thing hesays is, uh, I had to get you
(24:02):
away from the distractions andput you flat on your back so you
could hear me.
And it was like an audiblevoice, like someone was standing
at the end of the bed talking tome.
But like I said, I couldn't seehim.
And I thought, wow, you know,away from the distractions.
Now I had a really stressfuljob.
I had kids in athletics, so Iwas running around.
(24:23):
We're raising four kids.
One of them, of course, was off,you know, off and gotten
married.
Um, but it was just superstressful job, stressful life,
running in and out.
I was running all theseorganizations, doing coaching,
and there was just never amoment of rest.
It was just, and every day itwas the same lather, rinse,
repeat.
Get up in the morning, go towork super early, come home,
(24:46):
throw the baseball equipment orwhatever.
And you know, it was justraising kids was just hectic.
And so I didn't have time forGod.
I didn't have time, I barely hadtime for church.
Every once in a while we'd go tochurch because I thought it was
good for the kids, but didn'treally mean anything to me.
SPEAKER_00 (25:01):
I I love that because you don't have to be a
big believer for something um unincredible to happen.
SPEAKER_01 (25:07):
It is incredible.
No, no, and I and I wasn't.
And you know, I I had I ifsomebody said, Are you a
Christian?
I'd say, Yeah, of course.
Uh, but it just, like I said,didn't mean anything to me.
Uh it was just what you did onSunday, Sunday mornings.
That was it.
Sunday afternoon, you come home,you watch the football games,
and you know, you forget allabout Sunday or Sunday school.
And um, so he says, I'm I'mcalling you out to do more for
(25:32):
my kingdom.
And I thought, well, you know,I'm about to die here, so what
am I gonna do?
And he says, You're gonna make afull recovery, and at at the
right time, I'm gonna call callyou out to do more for my
kingdom and tell our story.
And he said, Our story is goingto reach millions.
And I kind of laughed.
(25:53):
I said, You got the wrong guy.
I'm not Billy Graham.
Now, if you think about like 20years ago, most of my story's
been heard on YouTube.
We have NDE story and NDchannels telling the stories,
millions of views, millions ofviews, podcasts, yeah.
Yeah, so that part of it cametrue.
(26:13):
It took 20 years, but uh youknow, when I finally went public
with my story, um when was thatguy posted posted contacted me
and they wanted to put my NDEstory in one of their books, and
I thought, well, I better dosome marketing for them, you
know, help them sell some books.
Um, and so that I contacted apodcaster, and that first one
(26:34):
led to a lot more, you know,it's it's just the NDE community
has is pretty tight.
Yeah.
So when he said you're gonnatalk to millions, I thought, you
know, Billy Graham standing infront of this this big crowd of
you know, hundreds of thousandsof people.
And I said, That's not me.
I mean, I'm not comfortabletalking in front of a crowd.
And he just chuckled, you know,like you like you have two
(26:58):
ideas, right?
Yeah, um, so that part of it didcome true.
Um, and he said, you know, hejust pretty much told me you're
you're gonna have uh somevalleys to walk through, but uh
I'll I'll carry you through it.
You're gonna have some tough,tough things that go on, and I
and I did.
SPEAKER_00 (27:15):
But ultimately, when you're trying to speak your
truth, you're gonna be tested,you know.
Sure.
And speaking truth is not alwayseasy, but as long as it's honest
from you, that's the only thingthat's important.
I think we're all designed to bebuilt differently and question,
and and I think that's healthy.
I don't think it's healthy forus all to think the same thing.
(27:36):
No, but I I do think it'shealthy to question, and I think
your story will make peoplequestion.
And if people attack, it's onlybecause they haven't asked the
right question yet.
That's all my and I think thatif you're unsure, question
everything until you get yourown experience, your own
feeling.
So I think that some of thosecontrasting moments that you
might have experienced or haveexperienced are just people
(27:59):
still trying to catch up, tryingto ask those right questions.
But naturally that's part ofyour journey of speaking the
truth, which you were reluctantto in the first place.
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (28:10):
Yeah, that that's important.
But everybody, like you said,everybody's on their own
journey.
Everyone's on their journey.
It's gonna happen at at theright time.
That yeah, you know, but justyou know, that's that's kind of
my whole message, too, is juststay curious, you know.
Yeah, dig into it, you know, dodo your own research.
And um, maybe I hate to say it,but maybe not all on YouTube.
SPEAKER_00 (28:31):
But um, you know, I think when you ask really good
questions, I think life has awonderful way of showing you
answers to those questions.
I remember when I was firstcurious and uh after the car
crash a few years later, I wasstill drinking heavily and I and
I was like, I don't know if I'mgonna be able to continue living
at this rate because the pain isso much from the the contrast
(28:54):
and the emotional that I'mfeeling.
And then I remember like asking,I was like, look, there's got to
be more to life than what I'mseeing, even though I'd been to
church.
I'd grown up going to church,but I I hadn't quite grasped
really what it was all about.
It felt quite dogmatic.
But I received a book from afriend the next day and I
devoured it.
(29:14):
A book, and I was like, man,this is answering a lot of
questions.
And from that book, a load ofother books came into my
experience.
And I from about the year 2000onwards, I devoured thousands
and thousands of books until oneday, in my experience, I was
like, that's enough, you can putthe books away now.
Now it's time to share.
And I was like, whoa, nor me,whoa, whoa, whoa, nor me.
(29:37):
I'm flawed.
I was like, that's exactly whyyou're I want you to be a
messenger.
Yeah.
That's exactly why you want youto be a messenger.
And after lots of pain andsuffering and breakups, now it's
your time, off you go.
And that was six years ago,Mike.
So I understand where you'recoming from, but also I'm
listening and really feeling thepeople tuning in today.
(30:00):
Listening to this episode to go,listen, question as much as
possible.
Like Mike said, be curious.
SPEAKER_01 (30:05):
Yep, absolutely.
Very important.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (30:08):
So what what did he say when he came in?
You know, he said, Look, I Iunderstand I want you to share,
teach millions of people.
Was there anything else as aswell as that?
SPEAKER_01 (30:18):
Um it was just, you know, pretty much this is what I
want you to do.
Um, and did he give you anyspecificity what he wanted you
to do?
You know, it's a that's funnythat you ask that because I I
always ask for specifics.
I always say, What does thatmean?
You know, tell me more.
What what does that mean?
What's that gonna look like?
(30:39):
Am I supposed to write a book?
Am I supposed to, you know, whatam I supposed to do?
And it's always dead silence.
Anytime I've heard Jesus talk tome, it's always the details are
up to me.
Okay, you know, and and I wishyou would just say, Here's what
I want you to do.
I want you to write a book, Iwant you to go to this, you
know, church and talk to thesepeople and do this and this.
(31:00):
No, it's just all, it's all no.
I want you to tell our story,and that's it.
You know, the rest details areup to me.
SPEAKER_00 (31:10):
So I love that.
That's beautiful because then itgives you the choice, the free
will, so to speak, to be able toshare your truth.
When did you start sharing thethe story, actually, Mike?
How long ago was it?
Because the experience was like21 years ago.
But when was it when you beganto actually reach out and share
(31:30):
the story on YouTube and otherareas?
SPEAKER_01 (31:34):
Uh it was it was about it was almost 20 years ago
after it happened.
So I was reading an onlinecomment.
Uh well, that was that was toget to the second part.
I was reading an online commentthat said, um your hallucination
was caused by your hightemperature.
(31:55):
And I used to always think, whenI've read those comments, I used
to think, Well, my temperaturewhen Jesus was in the room
talking to me for those threehours, after the first hour, the
nurse checked my temperature andwas down to 100.
So I thought, well, that's nothigh enough to cause a
hallucination.
And it happened for two hoursafter that.
Uh the first time I startedsharing was when Guidepost
printed my story in their intheir book, uh, Glimpses of
(32:18):
Eternity.
And I was watching a podcast onon YouTube, and I just heard
that same voice, Jesus' voice,say, I want you to contact this
guy.
And I thought he was talkingabout the guest, because the
guest was a religious guy.
Okay.
And he was talking a lot aboutJesus.
And I thought, well, okay, I'llfigure out how to get a hold of
(32:38):
him, you know.
Um, and then I realized thatwhen I looked up his
information, the same voice wassaying, No, you're supposed to
contact the host.
And so I did, and like within aweek, I was in his office.
He lives about three hours awayfrom me.
I was in his office and he has astudio downstairs in his in his
(33:01):
house.
SPEAKER_00 (33:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:02):
And I was down there recording the whole message.
He calls me a couple of dayslater and he says, That was a
great interview.
I spent three hours with theguy, over three hours in his
studio doing this first podcast.
Sure.
He called me and he says, Hey,we lost all the audio.
I don't know what happened.
He said, I checked the audiobefore we started.
I checked it, you know, we tooka break.
(33:23):
I checked it during the it wasall there.
He says, We're gonna have to doit again.
I mean, unless unless you justwant to do something else, you
know, meet meet me halfway.
SPEAKER_00 (33:32):
I have to ask you a question.
Were you really anxious to tellthe story?
Did you have a fear inside ofyou of some sort?
SPEAKER_01 (33:37):
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (33:38):
I did.
Yeah.
I don't I definitely I wouldlove to say that everything in
this world after understandingenergy now for the last 20 years
is that everything is a responseto the energy we're emitting.
So when we've got fear, that canshow up and not uh uh a video or
an audio coming on.
I know that because that'shappened to me when I've done
(33:59):
these podcasts.
I've had somebody in I was like,I was so anxious, and then when
I got it, I didn't have thevisual.
I was like, oh no.
But I managed to put out theaudio, but not the visual.
And I know how I was feelingwhen I was going in there
because it was one of my firstauthors that I had spoken to,
and and I was like, so I knowhow it feels to know how it
(34:21):
feels to feel like you've gotanxiety or fear before.
But I know that as soon as yousort of get up to speed with the
rhythm of sharing a story, it'snot a big deal anymore because
it's just part of Mike, it's anextension.
Yeah, that's true.
Very true.
What do you feel like the mainmessage that you've taken away
from this near-death experience?
SPEAKER_01 (34:41):
Yeah, I think I think it's kind of what you were
talking about, you know, justgiving people some hope, you
know, that that we don't just goin the ground and and become
worm dirt, you know, or wormfood.
We there's there's life afterthis life, and and that's that
should give everybody hope thatthere's a better place.
Um it's cliche, you know.
(35:02):
Somebody dies and they sayyou're he's in a better place.
Well, it's true, but it's justso hard to imagine.
Um, but then that gets back tothe curiosity, you know.
SPEAKER_00 (35:13):
You've had a personal experience of a glimpse
of that better place, and thenyou're brought back to say, hey,
it's okay.
I mean, my dear uncle passedaway yesterday, and that's okay.
And I knew when I saw him atEaster time this year, I I felt
that was the last time I wasgonna see him physically.
But it's nice to know from yourexperience that there is a
(35:36):
beautiful place that that wewill go to when this physical
life is finished, our infinitelife won't finish, but this
physical suit will have itstime.
It's how do you make use of yourtime now?
I know you're renovating yourhouse and you're doing a massive
job right now.
Yeah.
Yeah, but from that heightenedexperience that seems so vivid
(36:00):
and real, and you've been ableto disclose that with us so
openly and beautifully, Mark,you know, how how do you take
that into your day-to-day life?
SPEAKER_01 (36:08):
What I've done is just said, okay, Jesus wants me
to tell this story, so that's mymission in life.
I'm I'm gonna share it with asmany people as as I possibly
can.
Um, you know, when when he'sthere's another there's another
crazy part too to this to thiswhole thing.
Um as I'm reading this thisother comment where that I told
(36:34):
you about just a minute agoabout the hallucination, sure,
high fever, I hear the audiblevoice say, now's the time to
tell the whole story.
And it's the same voice, samevoice of Jesus.
He says, Now's the time to tellthe whole story.
The world is ready, and so areyou.
Hold nothing back.
(36:54):
And I thought, okay, well, thethe world is ready.
Yeah.
And I thought, I'm ready.
And I thought, you know, this is20 years afterwards.
I was very reluctant to tell anypart of the story in the
beginning.
But I thought, what's changed inme in 20 years?
And I have become, um, as I'vegotten older, I've become more
(37:15):
empathetic.
I don't, I don't get mad atsomebody for not believing me,
because I, you know, I wouldtell a few friends about the NDE
and they look at me like you'renuts.
And back then I would just go,well, screw you.
I don't care what you think.
And I thought, well, that's nota very good representation of
Jesus, you know.
So you gotta work on your ownheart.
But he did, he changed me.
(37:36):
And and now I, if somebody says,I don't believe you, I say, I'm
sorry you feel that way.
And do you mind if I pray foryou that you have an open mind,
that you that you become curiousand you know, and do a little
searching on your own.
And uh, so that's that that wasthe big change for me during
those 20 years.
SPEAKER_00 (37:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:55):
When he told me, tell the whole story.
That's when I wrote the newbook.
And, you know, I just I put inall the crazy God stories that I
have.
And yeah, well, remind us of thetitle of the book so people can
like order it and read it.
SPEAKER_00 (38:08):
The book is called I Held the Hand of Jesus in
Heaven.
I have that.
I'll have I'll make sure we havea link for that so you guys can
read it.
Mike, it's been an absolute joyspeaking to you, very inspiring
and enlightening.
And and I think that the themain word here to take away is
hope.
And and I think faith is anotherword I really think is important
(38:28):
today.
And I think that we can all holdhope in our hearts in our own
way when whether whatever we'regoing through, maybe there's a
health challenge, a financialchallenge, you know, a f any
type of challenge, a death, youknow, this makes us like feel
like there's got to be more.
And I think that if anyone'slistening to this, you are made
for more.
(38:48):
You just might have forgottentemporarily.
And I think that sometimestuning into that higher aspect
of yourself, gee, God, Jesus,energy, universe, whatever you
wish to call it, I just thinkit's really important that you
tune and tap into it becauseyou're gonna get guidance.
And and I think Mike's story isa a wonderful display and
(39:10):
sharing of that guidance that hegot.
What thing could you share withpeople to take into everyday
life?
SPEAKER_01 (39:15):
Yeah, I'd say just um, you know, be be patient in
and appreciate God's beautifulcreation here.
You know, death becomes part ofof this earth.
Uh, but you look around, I mean,the there's beauty everywhere.
There's sunsets.
Man, my picture, my my phone isfull of pictures of sunsets and
flowers, and I just can't getenough of it.
(39:37):
Um, but just stay curious andstay hopeful.
SPEAKER_00 (39:40):
Beautiful.
Well, thank you, Mike.
Mike McKinsey is this week'ssuper soul model.
Thank you very much.
Thanks so much, James.
Thanks for listening.
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