Dragon Fire Prof Shield or Your Money Back | Christina Inge - The Josh Bolton Show

Episode Transcript
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Josh Bolton (00:01):
Welcome to the Josh Bolton show. interesting and
inspiring conversations. And nowyour host, Josh Bolton. Thank
you. So I'm just curious. So howlong have you said you've been
doing reach See, like 10 years,right?

Christina Inge (00:19):
Eight and a half years formally incorporated a
spotlight LLC, who started outin 2014. Before that I was in
house for a little while. Butprior to that, I was freelance,
and did some did a lot ofconsulting work. So all told, in
my current incarnation, it'sbeen since 2014.

Wow. Wow, that's impressive.

Unknown (00:45):
It's been a blessing to

us that the opportunities and the clients
you get to work with him must befun.

Unknown (00:52):
It absolutely is. We've been blessed to work with
everybody from, you know, majorconsulting firms and fortune 500
companies, all the way toindividual authors in the local
area doing great work. It's beenI mean, so far, it's been an
amazing ride.

That's awesome. So I'm just curious on a side note,
well, how would it is, dependingon the author, they don't make
enough, how do you work out thepricing with them? Or is it like
for customer kind of thing?

Unknown (01:25):
Um, well, you know, I have a standard publishing
contract I, I basically, I workwith two different publishers
and your right author, royaltiesare a fraction of what you
actually pay for a book, whenpeople go the traditional
publishing route. And I thoughtit would be a good idea to go
the traditional publishingroute, just for my first couple

(01:47):
of books versus self publishing.
And you're right, I don't haveany control, by the way, either
of the price. And royalties, youcan certainly negotiate but they
are everyone, you know, everyoneknows it's a fraction of the
cover price of the book. Andyet, I got one, I got one book
review on Amazon, by the way,the book has like a 4.7 rating

(02:08):
on Amazon. But one person said,I'm taking this down one star to
four stars, because the bookstoo expensive. And I felt like
saying, I have no control overthat. It is available at a
discount. And I can actuallyshare that discount with, with
listeners so that I can dosomething about giving a coupon

(02:31):
to your listeners.

That's awesome. I'm gonna say, look it up on my I
need to get to that book. I'vejust been so busy. Like,
hopefully, there's an audioversion, I can just listen
there.

Unknown (02:43):
You know, there isn't.
But I'm going to talk to mypublisher about I will, I will
read this book. And it'll bebecause I will be the audiobook
believer to like I literally,almost all the reading to its
body.

Same unless it's like something very technical,
like math that you really shouldsee it. I don't read like paper
books anymore.

Unknown (03:06):
I don't Yeah. And you know what, I'm a huge fan of
paper books. And I'm thrilledthat books are not not gone. One
of the schools I teach atBrandeis University has this
wonderful library, and I walkedpast it yesterday, and we're
doing a campus coat drive. And Idonated two coats to the

(03:27):
community. And I walked past thelibrary, and they had that
library smell. And I was like,ah, that is a great smell. But
at the same time, I got myKindle here. In fact, I
literally have two90% of my libraries here now. I
actually do enjoy reading paperbooks, but it's just it's just

(03:48):
more efficient, right?

Yeah, it's more efficient, because like for me,
I can be working. I'll just popin one headphone. I could be
driving for an hour blastthrough like two or three
chapters. Kind of thing. Yeah,this was normal reading. I'd be
like, Oh, shit, there's a car

Unknown (04:06):
kind of mistake.
Exactly. Exactly. And you get itdone on the train. And yeah, no,
I think I think that, you know,ebooks are the way to go. And
the Kindle version of my book isalso available at a discount.
Plus, it's cheaper. Anyway, soyou it's a win win.

Rice is awesome. So what are the books so I can look
them up? And I'll add it to mywish list to like, okay,
audible. When does this come outkind of thing.

Unknown (04:35):
Oh, so yeah, I'm gonna actually ask about doing an
audible book. But the bookcurrently is available just in
print and Kindle version does.
The second book that's out rightnow. It's called marketing
metrics. It is from Kogan page,the full title it's it's an
earful, marketing metrics,leverage analytics and data to
optimize marketing strategies.

(04:57):
And that's truly what it's allabout. Okay. And the first book
is with flat world. And it's atextbook that will teach you
everything on just like thebasic level, presuming no prior
knowledge about marketinganalytics, which is a little bit
different from marketingmetrics, it's more on the data
and how do you do the data? Andthat's a marketing analytics A

(05:21):
Comprehensive Guide fromFlatworld. Also available on
Amazon.

It definitely after this chapter, I'm gonna go pick
one up because I want toeveryone's been yelling at me
about is like, Yo, you need toget into marketing, do this,
this and this, and I'm like, icecream. But how am I supposed to
interpret this to this? Like, Iget it, like, you get so many
impressions to move so manyclicks through just so many
purchases. But there's othermoving parts that can be like,

(05:49):
even though it's not good,because this is Hi, you doing
fine kind of thing? Or am I didI interpreted all that wrong?
You did not say your face waslike, What was he talking about?

Unknown (06:01):
No, no. So I'm trying, I was trying to formulate a
response that would apply in asmany situations as possible. So
let me let me take it back, lefta step. There's no one metric
that tells everybody everyfight, depending on your

(06:22):
industry, depending on yourgoals, depending on you go to
market strategy, there's a bunchof metrics that do tell you an
enormous amount, I would say ifthere's such a thing as a
universal metric, it's going tobe your your advertising ROI,
your return on adspend, and yourmarketing ROI. So for every

(06:43):
dollar or pound or euro, orwhatever your currency is for
every everything I invest inmarketing, how much of that
comes back in profit. Now, in mybooks, I talk about revenue. And
the reason I focus on revenueversus profit is that I also
want this to be useful to theagency world. And when you work

(07:05):
in an agency, you often don'thave the insight into the
profits that your clients aregenerating, you can only look at
the revenue by looking at thelist price, for instance, of
what they're selling, et cetera,et cetera. So I use revenue, a
lot of marketers rely onrevenue. It's ideal, of course,
if you look at profit, and Italked about that in my book
about how that's where you wantto get to, but frankly, even if

(07:27):
you're just looking at dollarfor dollar, how much am I
investing in my marketing, andif that how much is coming back
and what people are spending,it's a good sign that marketing
is helping you get to the rightcustomers. So if there is a
universal metric that saysyou're doing great, it's going
to be that there's there's othermetrics, and they really depend

(07:49):
on you know, are you an Ecommerce business? Or are you a
b2b brand? Are you a b2b brandthat has a long sales cycle, a
short sales cycle? Are you brickand mortar primarily? So lots of
nuances come in after that? Butthat ROI, that's that Universal
Golden metric, you got to betracking?

Cool. So I wouldn't say you, you mentioned in your
pitch and the listing, you hadlike eight metrics that you you
work with and teach peopleabout?

Unknown (08:22):
Yeah, I absolutely do.
And I would say that those arethe ones that I recommend that
everybody focus on as much aspossible. So I talk in my book
about the core four, which isthe four major types of metrics.
But going beyond the types ofmetrics, there's also the

(08:42):
specific data you want to lookat. And here's how I how I
envision them. Number one,again, we just talked about it,
you want to look at your returnon adspend. Or you want to look
at your marketing ROI morebroadly. You know, if you're
looking at that, you are golden.

(09:08):
So look at both of thosemetrics, if you can, then you
want to take a look at yourcustomer analytics. And that's,
that's absolutely critical. Andthat can be everything from
what, what gets your customersexcited. In other words, what
are they clicking on on yourwebsite? Is it let's say, I'll

(09:30):
give you an example. And I'm bigon I'm big on having products on
my desk. So let's say your lipbalm, lip balm company, like you
make chapstick. And you it'sorganic, and it's hypoallergenic
and I know gluten free. I justmake buzzwords are the buzzwords
right. And let's say you haveblog posts on your website, some

(09:53):
of which talk about oh, how tomake your personal shopping more
sustainable, how to have a lowercarbon footprint. Have you also
blog posts on how to managehaving, I don't know, gluten
allergy. And you know, which isa very serious thing for people
who have it. And then you've gotother things talking about,
just, you know how good thisstuff is like how high quality

(10:14):
the formulation keeps you from,you know, freezing, when you're
out skiing, or something likethat. You're gonna want to look
at the metrics on Well, what arepeople clicking on, because
let's say I've got 50 blog postsout there, a third of them are
on our sustainability, a thirdof them are on our quality of

(10:37):
our product. And a third of themare on how it's hypoallergenic.
So it's even, and you're equallypromoting all of them, then you
can look, though, are peopleequally reading that, because
let's say everyone is reallymore focused on reading about
your product quality, you don'tget a lot of traction on the
stuff that's about it beinghypoallergenic, maybe then that

(10:57):
part of your value propositionis not as exciting to customers.
And maybe the thing that's sortof in the middle there is the
fact that it's sustainable.
That's incredibly valuableinformation that you can gather,
just from your web analytics,and only from one small part of
your web analytics, which is theanalytics around what people are
reading on your blog, like,that's enough to start to give

(11:21):
you an indicator of what yourcustomers interests are, doesn't
mean it's definitive, right? Imean, you're gonna have to do
more analysis, more research,but it's pointing you in one
direction. So number two, afteryou're looking at your ROI, is
look at your customer analyticsbroadly. But specifically, look

(11:44):
at your top content on yourwebsite. Top content is really
critical. And by the way, I'llput together a cheat sheet on
all of this as well. So you've

got to listen here writing everything down, if like
I

Unknown (12:02):
feel free to do that, but I will also pull together a
cheat sheet for all of your allof your readers. So

be sure to put in the description for everyone.
Perfect. Absolutely.

Unknown (12:13):
Next up, what you want to look at is who are your top
segments? Are the customers whoare the ones who are the most
loyal? Who are going to spendthe most money with you? Or who
are the highest growth, itdoesn't have to be all three,
what matters to you. If you'reat a place where you're not

(12:35):
really looking to growexponentially. Let's say you're
a mature company, it might beloyalty or might be spend. If on
the other hand, you're a newbrand, you might be wanting
people to be the ones who havethe highest growth potential. So
look at your top segments. Alsomake sure that up segments is
defined for your organization,right? What do we want? Our what

(12:57):
do we want our customers to looklike? What customer segments do
we want to reach? So that'snumber three. Number four is
your traffic sources. So whereare we getting traffic from?
Because first metric return onadspend that's looking at where
are we investing that we thenend up getting customers from

(13:19):
but you could be gettingcustomers from places you're not
even investing maybe there's aninfluence out influencer out
there talking up yourorganization, or maybe you're
doing really well in organicsearch. Without even realizing
it. It was through this that forinstance, for one of our clients
analytical answers overMassachusetts, which is a

(13:41):
scientific lab, we discoveredliterally the coolest things. It
didn't end up having any realimpact on their lead generation
b2b business, but it was areally cool sign that our
content strategy was giving thembuzz. They're they're an
analytical lab, which means theyuse very high powered scientific
instruments to analyze materialsfor a variety of industries from

(14:05):
pharmaceutical to defense tech.
And we decided to do a just forfun series around the holidays
where we had them use the superhigh powered state of the art
microscopes to look at Sugar,salt and flour under
microscopes, and then explainhow different types of sugar
salt and flour impact yourbaking. We just a lark, it was
so much fun. We had a wonderfulI would in turn wrote the blog

(14:31):
posts who was studying chemistryat BU, and this got picked up by
Buzzfeed.

Oh, that's huge. If that's the case,

Unknown (14:41):
it was immense. And suddenly we're getting all this
traffic.
Of course it was non convertingtraffic because almost nobody
was baking chocolate chipcookies,

but they're like, oh my god if I put a certain
flower and that can be this. Idon't want that.

Unknown (14:57):
Exactly, exactly. So we all got Get out of it. And we
would never have known that ifwe hadn't been looking at our
truck top traffic sources. Nowhad we been with a b2c brand, we
would have been all over it for,you know, pitching BuzzFeed with
more and more stuff, it wascertainly a big win. And so
that's the sort of thing youwant to measure is what are your

(15:18):
top traffic sources? Becausethen you can leverage them for
understanding where you couldpotentially be getting even more
traffic or generating evenbetter buzz.
So that's for,again, I'm really trying to
focus on like, what are thethings you can get started with
right now? Right, you want tolook at response rates across
different sectors. And those areactually going to be my next

(15:42):
three? My next three metrics. Soyour marketing, automation,
email, open rate and responserate? How are people responding?
And by the way, if you're notdoing marketing automation, it's
going to be your email open andclick through rate?

Thank you so much for that clarification.

Unknown (16:01):
Yes, absolutely. So in some email platforms call it the
open rate, which is theproportion of people opened an
email, who then clicked on it,we also want to look at the open
rate, because that's going totell you is my message
interesting to my existing loyalcustomers. And if so, which of

(16:22):
my messages like let's say yousend out one email, that's a
Bogo, buy one, get one free, andit gets like a tepid response.
But then you send out somethingthat has a free recipe or some,
let's say your sporting goodsstore, some exercise tips, and
that gets an outstandingresponse, then you know, what

(16:44):
your existing loyal customerscare about and what they want
from you. So that's really,really important. Look at the
patterns, look at what gets thebest response from your existing
audience that if you havemarketing automation is going to
be in your marketing automationdata. In Email, it's going to be
your open rate. And your eitherclick rate or clicked open rate

(17:05):
depending on how your platformfinds it. response rate is
equally important elsewhere, butI think people miss measure it.
So on social media, people lookat likes. But like so cheap,
right?

Honestly, that's, I can really pay guard Thailand 10
bucks, and I get like 100,000likes,

Unknown (17:25):
you know, you could literally like you can have
people just randomly likethings. So instead, you're
looking at real sentiment, whatare you? What are the comments
like? What's the commonsentiment? How many shares how
much engagement does a socialmedia post get? So that's an
another really, really importantmetric, social media engagement,

(17:48):
really, because that tells youagain, that your message is
resonating. Now it's resonatingat a much lower level than an
email, or in an email open, itrequires much less commitment to
the brand doesn't necessarilysignal intent to buy, right,
which is why you want to look atthe next metric. And that is

(18:09):
your click through rate. Nowclick through rate applies
everywhere. And that's simplythe percentage of people who see
something who then click on it.
And you can easily for most ofyour reporting platforms, but
the click through rate tells youhow many people saw this message
actually decided to take action.

(18:34):
And I think a lot of timespeople misunderstand this, I
would report on click throughrate, even 10 years ago, we had
CEO saying things like well,clicks, don't turn me on Well,
I'm glad to hear that. But sothen you tend to think that
there's going to be an immediateconversion, a lot of people. And
that's not what it's about, youwant to capture those micro

(18:58):
conversions you want to, youwant to give people something
that gets them to commit to thebrand in some small way, like,
I'm gonna sign up for the email,or I'm going to follow them on
social media. And so that's thenext metric you want to look at,
obviously, you're tracking yourconversion rate. But if you just
look at that, especially ifyou're in his long sales cycle
business, you're gonna lose 90%of your customers to your

(19:22):
competition, because you'reexpecting them to come in the
door, even when they're in likethe first day of a nine month
sales cycle and be waving you acheck. And that's not on the go.
So if you ignore those littleearly signals, like somebody
clicked on your website, that'sa sign of interest. So you want

(19:42):
to have a mechanism for microconversions, whether it's an
email, whether it's a socialmedia sign up, it might even
simply be a return visit. Iwouldn't go so far as to call
that a micro conversion. But youcertainly need to be doing
retargeting ads and measuringwhether you're getting return
visits, especially If you'reb2b, and in a long sales cycle,

(20:03):
so I would say micro conversionrate is much more valuable
unless you're selling like acheap commodity item that people
just buy. Right off the bat, youneed to be looking at your micro
conversion rate, becauseotherwise, you're really not
getting the full story. And thenfinally, there is a metric that

(20:25):
I just referred to where youneed to look at your return
visit, you want to figure outhow can I see those visits with
Linsay retargeting ads, even ifyou are not seeing those return
visits, that's my bonus one,though, ROA as return on
adspend, or ROI, your top 10Your top segments, your traffic

(20:48):
sources, your marketing ourautomation, or email, click rate
and click to open rate, socialmedia engagement, your click
through rate and your microconversion rate are the top
eight. And then I would say ifyou want to look at a bonus
ninth metric that's going to beyour percentage of returning
visitors, because that's a signthat people are seriously

(21:08):
considering doing business withyou, and a sign that you are
reaching the right audience.
Now's not the time to rest onyour laurels. Now is the time to
rope them back in get them toengage with your brand.

Yeah, that's really good. I really liked how you
presented that because a lotI've had other people try to
pitch this to me, but they don'tadd up all the angles, like you
just did. Yeah, I

Unknown (21:34):
think that's so important. You want to hit all
the angles, because, again,there's no magic metric, you
want to look at all of yourmetrics together, because what
does, let's say you have a highclick, click rate or click to
open rate on your email. Great.
But if that if you're notreaching the right segments, if
it's a segment you're notterribly interested in because

(21:57):
they're, they're unprofitable,that's doing all the clicking,
then you might be losing money,you can't be like, Oh, yay, we
have this great click rate. Ifit's people buying stuff, that's
your lowest margin product. Andso that's just one example where
looking at two metrics, insteadof one metric changes the whole

(22:17):
picture. On the other hand, youcould be sending out an email
that's got a mediocre clickrate. But the clicks are all
coming from your most profitablesegment. In which case, you need
to look at improving that versuslooking at the email with like
this wonderful click rate. Butit's not. It's genuinely not
getting you anywhere, becauseyou're not making any money off

(22:42):
of those transactions. So again,you've got to look at all of
your marketing holistically, youcannot rely on a single metric
ROI is, you know, an importantmetric. But most of the time,
you're not going to know thatfor a while, especially in b2b.
You need to look at intermittentmetrics, not not intermittent

(23:06):
intermediary metrics. To knowwhether you're on the right
track, you can't just sit aroundand say, Okay, well, I won't
know my ROI for two years,because that's how long it
takes, you know, for the salescycle to complete itself. And
then we know how profitablecustomers because if you're
dealing with like, the higherend of b2b, that is often the

(23:27):
case, you don't have two yearsto sit around waiting to see if
this was a profitable campaign.
So you want to look at all ofthose other metrics to see, is
it trending in the rightdirection? Are we making good
progress? Is it looking likeit's going to deliver high ROI?
And that's, that's the way youwin.

That's so interesting. Yeah. Especially
with b2b, you could spend 10s of1000s, even hundreds of 1000s
dollars in ads, and promos andall that. But they may be like,
Yeah, but we like so and so'ssales guy better, we're gonna go
with them. And you're like, Ican't. But you didn't know until
like the two years edge.

Unknown (24:07):
Exactly, exactly. You got to be purposeful and
thoughtful about it in a muchmore organized way by looking at
a wide range of metrics, notjust one or two.

So for the traffic source back to, as you were
mentioning, influencers is thata big one you're seeing
especially if you're yourcustomers, like hire, go into
like influence, a fire,whatever, kick talkers, that
kind of thing.

Unknown (24:30):
It depends on a lot of times, what we'll do is
influencer outreach that's alittle more organic. But when
supply can be really valuable,any of these influencer
platforms can be excellent. Iwould say especially if you're
on Tik Tok, you really have towork with creators versus just
relying only on your brandpresence or on advertising. And

(24:53):
you've got things like Spark adsthat genuinely are both With
influencer marketing andadvertising, I had the privilege
of having Susan Winograd from aSearch Engine Journal guest
lecturer my class earlier thisweek. And she talked about for
Tiktok. For instance, theextreme importance of doing

(25:14):
spark ads and spark ads are likea hybrid, obviously between
insulin influencer marketing andadvertising. And just so you
know, for folks who arelistening, I'm sure you know,
Josh, it's about paying topromote content by a creator,
not by your brand, that happensto mention your brand. So that

(25:36):
is, I think, where the trustfactor is now with consumers,
you really want to do it in away that's respectful,
respectful of people's time,respectful of individual
creators. motives and the typeof work they do. Don't have
people do stuff that's notauthentic to who they are. They
probably won't agree to itanyway. But Nothing's worse than

(25:59):
cringy influencer marketing, butwhen you do it the right way.
It's fantastic.

Oh, yeah. And then your whoever they're following
is there's the diehard, like,anywhere from 10 to 20%. They're
gonna just go over and be like,alright, with you. We're with
you. Because same kind of thing.

Unknown (26:16):
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
That's so important. Soimportant,

and really is Yeah, especially with tick tock. It's
funny, I've moved it. There's alittle gray pouch right here.
And it's a gimbal. And I waswatching Tic toc. And this lady
with Parkinson's saw her handslike shaking like this. It was
she had the gimbal. And thecamera didn't move at all. And
I'm like I said, Because I hateto be that guy. My hands are

(26:43):
kind of shaky when I hold mycamera, not as bad as yours. But
it's noticeable, Mike, but yourgimbal is perfect. What is it so
I can buy it kind of thing. Andthen she's like, Oh, this and
that. But but it's this, here'sa link and she sends it. And
then afterwards, she is allfreaked out, like, oh my god,
that was an affiliate link. AndI literally just was like, I
don't give a shit here. Here'slike 10 bucks can that they?

Unknown (27:04):
You know, I think people want to support creators,
right? We've been getting somuch good stuff, I'm happy to
click on your affiliate link. IfI support you, as a creator, I
want I want you to give me thoseaffiliate links, because I know
how much work goes into it, youneed to monetize. So give me
that affiliate link, I'll clickon it, I'll buy directly from

(27:24):
that. I'll even go out of myway. And people will click on
that affiliate link, if it'sfrom a if it's from somebody
they support.

And that was a big one in this podcast I followed
for a long time, what he wouldused to do is say hey, here's a
general link to Amazon hits anaffiliate link. So he's a cool
shop at Amazon. Just bookmark aclick it in your web, it's gonna
bring you up in the app. Andthen just go about your day, and
I get like, three bucks off eachversus purchase no extra charge

(27:56):
CEOs. I was smart. I was like, Ididn't think about it pretending
like that. If we don't do itanyway, just press it, it'll
send you back to the app, andI'll get like two $3 off each
purchase.

Unknown (28:07):
I think that's I think that that's really helped more
and more people are going tomonetize. And I think it's more
help people are going to supportobviously supported artists on
Patreon. And that's great, butit's like I have to go through
more clicks I have to sign upfor another thing. So I believe
that if you do influencer stuff,right? The Influencers community

(28:31):
is going to rally around it.
They're not going to be botheredfar from it.

Yeah, and an influencer hopefully knows,
understands that you want aslittle pages to come up like
okay, you've clicked Patreon.
Thank you. Here is your name andemail. Did you click that? Okay,
now you had some created anaccount like Dan, I just do that
earlier. It's like alright,whatever, fill it out, like now
you have to fill punch in yourpayment by then you lose
everyone.

Unknown (28:54):
And you really do. I know only really do Patreon for
and I know this is awful. Ireally do it only when I'm
actually like purchasing aserialized comic book or
something like that.

Yeah. But for me, it's like if it's someone I
believe in, they put the latestces really selfish is they put
the link they put the time toput it in the description on
YouTube or podcast and I canclick it it takes me straight
there. John, you got my money. Ihave to go to Patreon find you
sign up make it account punch inmy info. I'm done.

Unknown (29:28):
Yeah, no, no, I'm done. I'm not I'm not here
for this. It's too much for memy exhausted. Yeah. Yeah. And I
so I think you know what, that'sthat's where we're at as a
society and brands need to getwith the program and leverage,
leverage what you can leveragewhat you can and that's going to

(29:49):
be the affiliate marketing and Ithink that that is it's
wholesome. Honestly, it's theway people support their
favorite creators,

right. They get something they Why, and they
know also the person gets alittle kickback from it too. I,
I've been really trying to editvideos on YouTube and all that.
And this one guy I follow onYouTube, his name's Finn
bizarre. He's all about editingand make it engagement. And he
tries to make everything funny.
So I watch on my phone with aweb browser that blocks ads. So

(30:21):
though, I watched like, 17 ofhis videos back to back, and
unlike the final two, he waspitching his precess. And so I
went on a whole, like, what arethe presets? What's the value
kind of thing that he's sellingfor 50 bucks, I realized what
he's selling, he could easilyask for 600 kind of thing. And
he's just like, it's notrealistic to sell at that rate.

(30:45):
So I'm just gonna sell it at 50.
And the throat, I can't I boughtit. And I said, Okay, I watched
like 17 New videos, you probablylost like 50 bucks on me,
somebody presets.

Unknown (30:57):
I, that's that's exactly how I would
recommend people work withinfluencers, find those people
who have real value that they'redelivering, who are giving real
value to their consumers who aregiving real value to their
community, and help them delivermore value. Right? Don't I
completely understand like somefashion influencer types of

(31:21):
deals that I see people do whereit's like, I'm going to style
this cardigan and then give youmy discount code. And I'm
definitely seeing people clickthrough on that. And we've done
that kind of thing in the past.
But how much better if you, forinstance, talk about how to pack
for a trip. And I'm not aninfluencer, I'm not being paid

(31:43):
to endorse this jacket. But Igotta tell you, it's one of
those jackets that looks like asuit jacket, but it's warm. And
also it's crushproof. And if Iwere an influencer, I would pull
this together in a blog postaround how to pack for a trip
with like a guide of exactlywhat you need to wear exactly
what you need to have. Andthat's going to be so much more

(32:06):
value than okay, here's acardigan or here here's a here's
a sport jacket or a suit jacket.
And so make it easy for theinfluencer that you work with,
to get that kind of value fromthe influencer content that you
give them.

Yeah, or a big one, a lot of like, viewed ticked off
YouTube, whatever, has beensaying, like, advertisers are
very strict on how do youpresent it? And one of them, he
said, he's like, I know, myhumor is not the most
politically correct, but itworks for my audience, and I can
get you a higher conversion islike just lets the Creator be

(32:44):
creative. Like this in the namekind of thing. Yeah, yeah, as
long as they don't like directlytalk shit about the company, I
don't care.

Unknown (32:56):
You know, I say as long as people align with your
values, right? I, you know,politically correct means
different things to differentpeople. Obviously, we as a, we,
as a company have some veryspecific values around
diversity, inclusion,sustainability, social impact.
And as long as people say that,I do not care if they swear. I

(33:18):
do not care if they don't haveyou know, it's like, don't have
it be corporate. Don't have tobe too polished. Everyone knows
that. That's fake.

When it's like, I'm on tick tock in YouTube to
escape corporate kind of thing.

Unknown (33:36):
Yes, exactly. Exactly.
So don't have to be too fake.
Don't have it be. Yeah, do nothave it be something that people
are like, Oh, this, this wentthrough like 16 different
degrees of legal and 12different people making sure
that you use the brand correctadjectives. And other it's like,

(33:58):
no, no, you've taken all thelife out of the piece.

Yeah, what little life it had you just chopped it

Unknown (34:07):
up? Just absolutely try. So I have a big old geek,
right. And so I used to kind ofhide that side of myself when I
was lecturing when I was givingtalks at conferences. And people
would be you know, I would getvery pleasant responses. And
then once and this is this is alittle bit of a it's an

(34:31):
emotional story. That was takencare of my mother she she had a
terminal illness, which shelived much longer with. Thanks,
thank goodness than anyoneexpected. And I had a night
where I had like, not slept. AndI had to give a talk at an
international conference. And Iwas like all my words. There is
not enough coffee in the worldbecause I'd been up all night

(34:53):
taking care of this is gonna goso badly because I don't have my
filter. As on I was talkingabout SEO and I shared with you
like, my unfiltered opinion ofsome best practices in SEO that
are not really best practices. Ithink there may have been some,

(35:14):
some, you know, some swearsthrown in there. I think I
express my opinions veryforcefully. And I heard people
literally like tears of laughterwere running down their faces,
and I got the first standingovation of my life. And that's
what I realized, you know what,people respond to authenticity.

(35:37):
And I'm totally fine. Um,honestly, you got to know your
audience, right? I'm not gonnaget up at like a White House
dinner or something.
But, um, youdefinitely do not have to be
like this corporate buttoned upcitizen. I currently have
developed a, unfortunatelymassive obsession with ancient

(35:59):
history. And I now use that asanalogies when I'm explaining
complicated like Mark martectopics, and I thought, Oh, God,
people are going to be cringing.
What a big old dork I am. And Isend out an anonymous survey
after every class and everytalk. And people are like, you

(36:20):
know, those historical analogieswere not only very helpful, but
I learned things about history.
And I'm like, Okay, let thatkeep flag fly. It's

working. Right?
Some of the stuff. I've I don'teven know what they're talking
about. But the fact that theperson's like, super authentic
on YouTube, or whatever I justdescribed, because I'm like, I
just like to he's superpassionate, or she or whatever.
And it's just like, the energy.
It's like, Yes, I don't knowwhat the heck you're talking

(36:47):
about, though. But I like theenergy.

Unknown (36:51):
I mean, that's just it, give, give
your chin give your genuineenergy. Give you genuine real
energy, to the extent that it'sokay. In that
environment. Yeah. Andself, be careful. 10 Swear. But
do you know, do what is rightfor you?

So I do have a question for you. Because you
would definitely know this muchbetter than me. Let's say I do
have a good concept of what I'mdoing. A general gist of who I'm
talking to you, but the data isnot. There's not enough to fully
painted a picture is the moretalking like YouTube and
podcasting for me to help youout? I know, like, generally,

(37:39):
we're everyone is, but I don'tknow who they are, what they
like, I just know kind of wherethey're at. How would I
extrapolate that information?
Like, oh, because of thisregion? I should be talking more
like this to them. Convert tohere. Okay,

Unknown (37:55):
I'm, I'm gonna say I am. I think you asked a question
that has become the topic talkabout history geeking out. That
I think is where what we weretaught in school about marketing
leads us so down the wrong path.
When you talk about like, shouldI gather my messaging and change
it based on the region? I'm nota big believer in targeting by

(38:19):
demographics, versuspsychographics. I wish I had my
slide deck in front of me, but Ido this slide presentation to my
students. And let's say, I sayokay, you are trying to target
teenage girls for a makeupcompany. You have one of those
college savings plans that youwant to target parents with

(38:43):
multiple children. You're a petcompany and you want to target
people who travel with theirpets. And then this is based on
one of my students, real lifestories. You are LGBTQ travel
packages to Hawaii and you on Elalkaloid, LGBTQ millennials.
Okay, got it. Got it. So thenI'm like, here's a cute girl and

(39:05):
I show them Joan of Arc. ThenI'm like, Okay, here's a parent
with multiple children, and Ishow them gearing as costs.
Great. And then I'm like, here'sa gentleman traveling with his
pets, and I've got Hannibalcrossing the Alps. And I'm like,
here's an LGBTQ millennial and Ishow them Alexander the Great
and I'm like, Are you going towalk up to any of these people

(39:27):
be like, dude, or mme? In thecase of Joan of Arc? Would you
like to buy my lip balm? Mypackage tour my pet carrier,
you're gonna put the animalselephant into a pet carrier? So
the answer here is we're gonnalook at demographics and you see
people they tell us all the timeWell, yeah, our target
demographic is teenage girls.

(39:49):
And like really, you would sellthis to Joan of Arc, would you?
And I'm not saying I mean,obviously, these are outlier
individual. You know, I wouldsay adultery so anything to
dangle Time, butyou're, you're losing the
ability to target people basedon the use that they have for
your product. When you say ourtarget audiences, moms, well,

(40:10):
you know, where do what it'smuch more useful to say our
target audience is people whoneed a child safety seat.
There could be dads, it could begrounds, right. And I think it's
extremely reductive is to targetby demographics. And I think

(40:34):
it's a product of where wedidn't have such good data about
people. So we had to justassume, okay, if I want to sell
lip balm, it's something teenagegirls like, so I'm just going to
target like 17 magazine backwhen that was the thing. Because
that was the proxies we had foraudiences, we can never actually
know who's in the market for lipbalm. And then you can avoid

(40:57):
trying to sell Sephora to Joanof Arc. And again, at all
attempting to sell anything,again is gone. So that's my
history geek analogy. So to backto your question, Should you be
targeting people differently,depending on their demographics
or their region? Only if theregion is germane

(41:21):
to what they want? Okay, right.
And like, I'm not going to tryto sell snow shovels in Alabama.
But that's not because I thinkpeople from Alabama will never
want a snow shovel. It's becauseit's useless to them most of the
time. So I'm gonna look atpeople's demographics only in

(41:43):
the basis of is that somethingrelevant to what I want to sell
to them? And if it is, yeah, ifit's not, and you can also look
at people's demographics fromthe wrong lens, if you're
looking at like age, genderidentity, maybe even income
level region. That's not thesalient point. You know, what

(42:06):
you could sell to all four ofthese individuals and they would
want it siege engines, right,you could sell them armor, you
could sell them spears, becausethe demographic that matters is
where these people are warriors.
And that is actually also ademographic but it's an
occupational one. And again, nowI'm really going down a history
rabbit hole. Oh, I like it. Orthat the demographic that you

(42:29):
are going after is actually thedemographic that motivates the
consumers behavior and notsomething incidental, that oh,
we only sell this to tall peopleor whatever.

Okay, so then it's more in a less elegant way. Be
broader for specific is what I'mhearing

Unknown (42:54):
and understand your consumer to that customer
journey map. So to extend thisnow into the world of fiction,
we did this in my classrecently, I was like, Okay, do
create a PPC commercial forlike, totally fictional
historical examples of what youwould be selling to people and

(43:15):
some of my wonderful delightfulstudents came up with dragon
fire proof shields that theywould have been selling to the
characters in Game of Thrones

that would everyone would want to find out when I
was like

Unknown (43:28):
it and the ad was like perfect. It was like guaranteed
dragon fire proof for your moneyback. Just absolutely. For my
students. That's what they werelooking at the right demographic
and understanding the customerneed and the customer journey is
all my shields been like singedby some dragons. I need another

(43:51):
one. It's gonna have to bedragon fire proof. That's my
motivator there. Right? And itdoesn't matter their age doesn't
matter. You know, the genderdoesn't matter whether they're
Millennials or boomers. Theyneed that dragon fireproof
shield. Whenever anyone says oh,it says Millennials suitable
they're usually wrong. They justmean people in their early 30s

(44:14):
or late 20s weren't actuallyMillennials at this point
anyway. Or I want boomers bywhich they mean gray hairs.
They've completely forgotten meand Gen X even exist. You know
people who have gray hairs? No,no, you want people who need a
dragon fireproof shield, I don'tcare if they're 16 or 67 They're

(44:34):
buying your product. That's thedemographic that matters to you.

It's lost as a result of losing all your money
back well if it doesn't work

Unknown (44:49):
which brings me to another thing in marketing has a
really dirty reputation that wemake promises that we know
you're not gonna holdus do. Not gonna get your money.
packet patch shield didn't work.
So I'm the spotter thatcircles back to things like

(45:11):
affiliate marketing influencermarketing targeting by
demographics which again, youknow, clarify my position on
that pick the right demographicchildren. What your lip balm she
wants that flameproof, she'll,well, okay, she's not fighting
dragons, butyou want to think about? I have
this problemarguments sometimes with clients

(45:34):
or students, marketing is not aninherently dirty practice. It's
how you do the execution on it.
And we've had debates internallyaround like, is this SEO tactic
spam, like in YouTube? We've hadsome luck with really heavily
tagging specific videos with, Iwould say, almost like,

(46:00):
repetitive tags, and yet theyworked great. So then they're
like, Well, is this spam? I'mlike, Are we hurting anybody
with this? No. We're using theright tactics. And I think
people outside of marketing orin fact, many of us in
marketing, who just don't wantto do things that are spammy.

(46:21):
They were reluctant to use allof the tactics at our disposal
when I want to circle it back tomarketing. Why are we targeting
people by very basicdemographics that often have
nothing to do with theirmotivations as a consumer, like
how old they are, or what zipcode they live in? It's because

(46:43):
we don't want to use the morespecific data saying, Oh, these
people are all in the market forreally good shields. Because
that would involve, you know,Cookie based technologies in the
past. Now, it involves otherkinds of tracking technologies.
It's, it's personal data aroundpeople. And there are privacy

(47:04):
aware ways of doing that rangingfrom looking for proxies for
your audience, like people whosubscribe to, you know, Dragon
proof shield monthly magazine.

I want to make that the title of the show, Dragon
Fire true sealed or your moneyback.

Unknown (47:26):
That's the title of the show.

That's the title of the show.

Unknown (47:29):
So you can find out what people want consumers
pretty heavily telegraph whatthey want. They're like, You
know what, man, I'm gonnaconquer the known world, or I'm
gonna cross the Alps. With myelephants, you can be fairly
sure they're in the market foryour dragon fireproof shield
again. Now I'm mixing realhistory with Game of Thrones,
but fun. People are telegraphingwhat they want from you. It's

(47:53):
not intruding on their privacyto notice, hey, I couldn't help
but notice you're crossing theAlps with all these elephants,
you need some shields.

Right? That's not That's not hard. No, no brainer,
intruding

Unknown (48:04):
on that person's privacy, you definitely do not
want to use things that doviolate people's privacy, when
they could have a whole otherconversation around that. But at
the end of the day, consumerswant to be targeted with things
that are relevant to them. Andthey're telegraphing that to us,
they're buying patterns, theyknow we're tracking their buying

(48:26):
patterns, they're buying thestock, we want to sell them and
they would welcome us coming upto them with offers that give
them the things that they wantto buy. I mean, when you're
busily you know, crossing theAlps with your elephants are
conquering the known world. Doyou have time to shop on Amazon?
No. You need the ads to targetyou.

Right. Now that's true. So then, okay, you were
talking about the proxy and theless invasive way of collecting
this information? What is someof them, you tell your clients?
Just a side note on that? Howlong do I got you for? Because I
feel like we can go at leastthree hours.

Unknown (49:03):
I know we could go at least three hours. I've got a
hard stop. Right? Well, I mean,do you want me to talk for more
than an hour? Would people wantto listen to that?

The energy is so great. I try I actually looked
down was like, oh, shoot, Imight have a meeting next.

Unknown (49:16):
Okay, well, I can go to like what I can definitely go to
one or a little little afterone. So I'm proxy audiences are
I think the thing that I feelmost comfortable recommending to
the widest range of clientsbecause it once again, again, it
goes back to I am telegraphingmy intent by by subscribing to

(49:38):
this YouTube channel, bypurchasing from this company. I
don't think any consumer todayin 2022 and beyond. And you
know, I don't want to date thisvideo, but I don't think any
consumer in today's societyexpects that their purchasing
habits are a secret. And so

I'll leave that by the way. as well. And suddenly,
it's not a secret anymore.

Unknown (50:06):
It's not. And especially if it's public
behavior, like what kind ofcreators you're subscribing to.
So if you're subscribing to aTwitch streamer on dragon
slaying, then you're saying I aminterested in these shields. I
do not consider that to be thekind of information that you

(50:28):
can't wildly use in your ownmarketing, provided you obey all
applicable laws and you maintainyour ethics. But if you look at,
for instance, the audiences forspecific creators for specific
media, that's a good proxyaudience that is privacy aware
in most cases. So go to, again,what we talked about influencer

(50:49):
marketing, there's got to be aninfluencer in your space, no
matter how niche, it you know,elephant harness monthly might
be a thing.

I don't know. I will, it was,

Unknown (51:00):
it really would be. But you know, no one else has ever
tried that. So it is a veryniche audience. But there's
gonna be maybe somebody Twitchstreaming something that's
related to that niche interest.
So what you want to do is youwant to go and look at those
proxy audiences. That's numberone. The second thing is
leverage your first party datamuch more than you already have,

(51:24):
you have so much good datalocked into your CRM system. And
even if you don't have a CRM,yeah, it's in your email
marketing, it's in yourecommerce system, it's in all of
those things that should be partof your CRM, all of the data on
the people who've done businesswith you already. Most companies
don't even have that asorganized as they'd like it, let

(51:44):
alone are they leveraging it tomake the sales that they need to
make. So first things first, geta handle on what data you have
on your existing customer, itcan cause from 2x to 5x, to more
than 5x more to acquire a newcustomer than it is to upsell

(52:04):
and develop a deeper and betterrelationship with an existing
customer.
Rather thansend your sales team out into
the field and say, You knowwhat, find us more conquerors.
And by the way, I'm notendorsing any kind of
colonialism with this. I'm juststretching a metaphor. Invading

(52:24):
peopledon't do it. Um, but wouldn't it
be better to just upsell thecustomers you have? And you're
doing it? And no one's doingthat well enough, except the few
companies that have absolutelygotten a handle on their first

(52:48):
party data. But no, in allseriousness, I am not, you know,
not glorifying colonialism. I'mjust getting caught up in my own
metaphor here

to say it's your metaphor in its history, it
happened you can't say that.
And,

Unknown (53:00):
and it's it's going it's rolling, because it's a
nice way to keep it separatefrom any other like any
industry, because if I say b2bor b2c people will think, Oh,
this is not relevant to me. Butif you go into like this total
fantasy realm, it makes moresense, because you can see the
core topic, which is you havemore first party data than you

(53:21):
think you know, what people wantfrom you who've already done
business with you who arepotentially satisfied customers,
they should be satisfiedcustomers. Nobody is organizing
and leveraging that except avery small percentage of
companies that heavily resourceit most small to midsize
businesses. Even a lot ofnonprofits that live off of
donations and should be buildingmuch better relationships with

(53:43):
their donors and supporters arenot doing enough with it. And so
first party data, proxyaudiences, both of those are
very privacy aware. And Iguarantee you you're probably
only realizing 75% of the ROIfrom either one of those unless
you've been systematic aboutboth your CRM and about your

(54:04):
data driven targeting andmarketing

Sorry, I'm just writing that down. Let's first
try to predict Crux and let'sthat's really good because
that's been a big one for me.
It's like, oh, I want to startrunning ads for different
products. I have but on my idol,here like saves me so much money
because I'm like, Oh, I'll runit for this person who really
likes martial arts and dragonsand watches Van Helsing kind of
thing else totally by now hereagain, like that's a terrible

(54:32):
waste of $500 they maybe get oneor two T shirts from

Unknown (54:38):
Yeah, yeah. And and you in the meantime, got a huge
amount of first party datacustomers who haven't bought
from you and longer than youtypically have repeat customers
like first of all know how oftenyour customers come back to you.
How often do they need a freshset of helmets or spears or
whatever and what bulk and it Ifthey are not making those

(55:01):
purchases with you why are theynot making those purchases with
you? Or they will locked in? Arethey going over to your
competitors? Or have you simplyfailed to stay on their radar?
Once you know that, I think alot of people are hesitant to
over message. They don't want tobe seen as obnoxious. Half the
time.

(55:25):
There, you're not beingobnoxious by being proactive. I
think you are actually probablyprobably not marketing enough.

And especially nowadays, yeah,

Unknown (55:43):
yeah, yeah. And you know what, I honestly think
that's another metric that Ididn't even dig into enough,
which is, look, when you'relooking at, for instance, your
open rates, your click throughrates for your email or for your
CRM, look at whether it'sstarting to drop off or whether
it drops off in response to aspecific type of messaging. And

(56:06):
if it's not dropping off, and Iknow this is almost a game of
chicken. But if it is notdropping off, you're probably
still well within the sweet spotof how often you could be
reaching out to your mailinglist and how much you can be
reaching out to your existingcustomers. Because people will
tell you when they are fed upwith your messaging by

(56:28):
unsubscribing, or simply notopening. If they're not doing
that, then you probably couldpush a little further. And
probably be doing a lot morewith reaching out to your

(56:48):
existing audience.

That's true. Yeah.
This especially with the emails,I was using Karcher. That's my
next question coming up. Is it arecommend CRM, just so you can
think about that? I was usingkartra. And this guy was like,
oh, free templates. Just give meyour email. I'm like, okay,
small price to pay. He blew meup within 10 minutes with 25
emails. Yeah. I was like, I gotmy one thing. And I was just

(57:17):
like, I'm like, get me out ofthis thing. Like, quick. What am
I does he not see it as one ofthose I set them right to see
not to see that? Does he notcare?

Unknown (57:27):
You do. I'm always astonished when companies do
something like that. And I'veactually talked to people who,
you know, we're using thosepractices about why and they
say, Well, if it works withlike, 1% of people, we really
need to make our numbers so wereally, really have to push, you
have to push in a way thatsmart,

though? I would say I would say I would buy targeted
retargeted ads instead of goingif your email.

Unknown (57:53):
Yeah, it's just, um, I think people just were too
wedded to old fashioned tactics.

Well, well, my one mentor, he helped me with a lot
of my business then I realizedthat he was teaching people how
to spot a charlatan and anoutlier and a grifter. And then
in teaching that he I've like,Wait, you're exactly what you're
preaching against kind of thing.
It was a whole paradox in thatbut the one he because everyone
was saying, Oh, I subscribed toso and so. And he woke me up

(58:23):
like, three to 10 messages aday. And he's like, Oh, it's
whoever this one of the emailmarketing godfathers it was
Nigel Carnac it's not becausethat's mindset. But there's some
someone like huge and he prettymuch says you keep slamming it
so harder so consistently theyhave no choice but to click and

(58:45):
he's gonna and that's recentthat's been the President's for
email ever since he said thenearly 2000s I don't like no that
does not work.

Unknown (58:58):
That does not work that is again again and I'm a very
peaceful person believes thatbut I'm gonna get back into my
metaphor and say that is thesiege warfare mode of marketing
of like, I'm just going to standout here with my counterpart of
email, keep flinging thingsat you. Like okay, people get
mad when you do that since

you produce throw rocks in my room. I'm gonna be a
little mad

Unknown (59:27):
I've got archers and it's like I'm not gonna and it's
called reporting you as spam.
Right don't do that.

When that's where then cuz the guy was like, what
is the sweet spot and like yousaid he he's like, three emails
a week, kind of like a start ofthe week like a pep talk and
newsletter made one like areminder like, Hey, we're doing
this event later on in a couplemonths. And then on Friday, like
I have a great weekend andwhatever funding you want to
add, that will best for cuteyou're in their mind, and I'll

(59:58):
bother either when one of themyou actually make a pitch,
because you're not too much of abother, they'll click and
actually read it is the too faroff,

Unknown (01:00:06):
I would say three times a week, if you don't have a if
you're a salesperson, and you'vehad good conversations with
somebody, and they're a warmlead, and you're in a long sales
cycle, yes, three times a weekis totally fine. If, on the
other hand, you are a brand, andyou're sending out a mass email,
even if it's to a targetedsegment, I think three times a

(01:00:29):
week nowadays is getting alittle bit much I would say 10
years ago, when people were lessbusy and had fewer media
choices, you could do that, Iwould take that three times a
week messaging, and I wouldshift it over to LinkedIn, I
would shift it over to ticktock, I would be doing it as
Instagram reels. Because that'smore of an opt in situation

(01:00:51):
where you're not pushing intothe inboxes of people. You're
You're honestly better off doingthat than abusing your email
list. And again, everydepartment, every organization,
every department within yourorganization is going to have
different mileage, some people,that's fine. Some people, you're

(01:01:13):
gonna get unsubscribes, you needto really look at the
unsubscribe rate and the openrate on that. I mean, if people
are opening your emails, it'sworking for you. But if you've
got like a 4%, open rate, that'sa sign nobody wants to hear from
you three times a week, viaemail, go do that on tick tock,
you will probably grow yourbrand you'll reach people you

(01:01:34):
don't yet know. And you will notbe annoying your existing
mailing list.

Josh Bolton (01:01:43):
And that's kind of what I was mentioning to him. I
was like, Howard, for somehosting, keep my feet in
people's mind have a littlepiece of their mental real
estate. But we don't want toharass them or bullying him into
it. How we're supposed to coaxsomebody. So to say that because
like social media, hazing, Idon't personally use it, because
he's like, I use affiliatemarketing to get my leads. But

(01:02:04):
he's like, social media is agreat way. Because if they
really want to see you, they'lljust click it. They're annoyed
to click off, but it doesn'taffect you directly. Exactly,
exactly. And that's

Unknown (01:02:13):
a much easier way of doing it. And again, it can help
you reach folks who you don'thave first party data on because
they haven't done business withyou yet.

100%. So, back to the other question that started
to solve what is the CRM yourecommend your customers to use?
Oh,

Unknown (01:02:30):
I don't like to endorse any particular CRM I do want
like, so I'll break it down asI'll talk about. Because I'm not
an affiliate of any of them. AndI do try to keep neutral we work
with so many we do work with alot of companies that are
invested in HubSpot, we alsowork with a lot of folks who do
MailChimp, which frankly, isclose to being a pretty robust

(01:02:54):
CRM at this point that is ourneeds. So But that said, I'm
also a fan of Salesforce, we'vedone a fair amount of work with
that the the CRM you need is theone that has the features that
you want. And that your folkswithin your team can use easily.

(01:03:19):
It may not have all the bellsand whistles, it may not have
every single feature becausemost of the time, people don't
use every single feature intheir platforms, but it's going
to be what your consumers want.
And you know, in terms ofgathering the data around what
your consumers want, and it'sgoing to be what your your

(01:03:41):
community of users within yourcompany is going to feel
comfortable with. The number oneCRM to use is the one that's not
going to get a lot of pushbackfrom very confused people who
are going to be running that CRMwithin your organization.
Definitely give people training,but do not.
Again, with the elephants, ifyou need a pony, cuz you're like

(01:04:05):
a pizza shop on the corner, donot get an elephant CRM

it's interesting because I'm, I'm shopping around
for one, but through thesustain, I was using kartra
earlier, but that one got reallyweird dealing with them. And I
finally would just cut my money.
It was like, Okay, I'm done.
That's the guy blow me up like20 times in 20 minutes. But it's
one of those like, I'm trying topeople have been asking me to a

(01:04:37):
place to like, kind of like kindof like you like how do I do
this kind of marketing likeWell, let me call Christine. The
thing

Unknown (01:04:48):
with our clients as we sit down, we do a needs
assessment and then we give thema choice of like two to three
CRMs we think would solve theirproblems that we have them do a
demo of each day. And then youtheir gut instinct is going to
tell them what they want basedon the user interface. Like
there's, there's two or threeCRMs for every need. And the

(01:05:09):
deciding factor is does thisuser interface instinctively
make sense to me? The way I liketo work?
That's it. Like that's in anutshell.

Perfect. So kind of my analogy I wrote down is the
simpler, the better. Alsopowerful, okay. Because Carter
was so complicated for me. I'mpretty tech inclined, I like my
computers. I like software. I'vebeen learning coding, so I get
it. And I'm looking at this,like, what the heck am I
supposed to do with this kind ofthing. So that right out of the

(01:05:43):
gate, I should listen to my gutand just be like, this is a bad
idea. Just get your money andgo.

Unknown (01:05:48):
Absolutely. Absolutely.
That's awesome. I am gonna gogoing. You know, it is.
It's 109. We don't absolutelyhave to like get going. But we
could certainly I mean, if youwant any questions, I'm here for
that.

Oh, boss. I was thinking you were central.
Sorry. That sounds like wow, wehave plenty of time.

Unknown (01:06:16):
No, it's one o'clock my time.

Yeah, then my only three going out questions is
really simple. I live in work.
What have you been doing to keepyourself busy during these COVID
times?

Unknown (01:06:28):
Well, when I'm when I'm not reading up on military
history, or trying to figure outhow to sell package tourism, lip
balms to history's greatestwarriors and succeeding very
little. What I do is I am in ahabit I kid you not I have three
dogs and a cat. So I rescue,rescue these animals, and they

(01:06:49):
keep me busy. I like to gohiking on all of the local
trails around here to exercisemy pets. For several miles every
weekend, it depends like I mightdo 810 20 miles a weekend with
the dogs. I'm an avid knitter Ilove to bake when it's cold out,
which hopefully will be soon.
And I really just enjoy spendingtime with friends and family.

That's awesome.
Second question, someoneinspired by you wants to walk
down a similar path, what aresome tips, tricks or advice you
give them to get going,

Unknown (01:07:25):
I'm fine. Find the area of marketing that that
feeds your soul. I know thatsounds a bit cheesy, but find
the part of marketing thatdoesn't feel like a slog. It
could be graphic design, itcould be front end development,
it could be marketingautomation, I find that what
makes me tick is solving reallycomplicated tech stack problems,
but doing it with an eye to whatthe marketing strategy is like,

(01:07:46):
how are we going to gather thisdata about customers? And how
are we then going to make itoperational so that we're
targeting people, and we're notselling elephant harnesses to
gang ISKCON.

That's very important. But he's like it,
there's no use for me, though.

Unknown (01:08:06):
I don't need this. You should have sold it sold these
tangible. And so you think toyourself, that sounds like a
boring job. But I really lovedata. And I found that being
just into the data is what makesme happy. So find the thing that
makes you happy. Don't letpeople say Oh, well, the jobs in
that are drying up, find theaspect of that where the jobs

(01:08:28):
are plentiful. Right,

because there was only so much AI can do
correctly, at

Unknown (01:08:33):
least only so much.
Exactly. There. There'ssomething for everybody in
marketing, find your passion andthen find the most likely job
descriptions, maybe identifythree or five that will allow
you to do more of that and lessof what you don't want to do.
And then, for instance, ifyou're like, I totally wish to

(01:08:53):
cross the Alps with largeanimals, you're going to join
Hannibal's army if you're like Iwant to say France to join your
works army. So in other words,figure out where you can go with
that passionate enthusiasm whereyou're appreciated, there's
companies that will willabsolutely love you. And if
you're not in a place whereyou're doing your best work, get

(01:09:14):
an exit plan, but it's also aninsurance plan to the place
where you will do your bestwork. So that's my advice.

Wonderful, I love how you hit like all angles of
that to work and everyonecontact us.

Unknown (01:09:31):
You can go to my website, it's thought light.net
t HOUGHT. Thought as in thinkinglight li gh t. So t h o u g h t
li ght thought like dotnet andyou can hit the Contact Us
button and that will eventuallyquickly make its way to me. And

(01:09:55):
you can go on Amazon if you wantto buy my latest book marketing
metrics and And that's under mylast name Christina inch img II.
But I if you go to the Koganpage website, que OGANPAG, the
discount code that I'm going toprovide is going to work there

(01:10:15):
to get you 20% off. And that'sdiscount code metrics. So, all
due respect to Amazon, you go tomy publishers website, you'll
get a little you'll be able touse the coupon code.

And that's fine.
That's awesome. Thank you somuch. Absolute pleasure. This
telehealth went the hour for the

Unknown (01:10:37):
Well, I hope people got as much much geeky joy out of it
as I got out of having thisconversation with you, Josh.
It's been wonderful. To see

energy alone. I'm sure a lot of people don't like
you, dude, you should listen tothis just fun. Hope so.

Unknown (01:10:52):
I hope as long as they're laughing with you and
not at you. It's a good day.
It's a very good day.

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Dragon Fire Prof Shield or Your Money Back | Christina Inge

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Dragon Fire Prof Shield or Your Money Back | Christina Inge