Faith Changed How I See Everyone: Seeing Humanity Through God's Eyes,A Conversation with Jason Tucker
Ready to connect with stories that inspire faith and purpose? Kickstart your journey at www.brianearnold.com – meaningful conversations await!
Join an inspiring conversation with Jason, a creative entrepreneur sharing his journey from growing up in a tight-knit Minneapolis community to building bridges across cultures.
Hear about his powerful experience on a Civil Rights tour in Alabama, exploring history’s impact on today’s world, and how faith shapes his mission to spark meaningful conversations through imaginative storytelling with Group Law.
What if we could see people as God sees them? In this deeply personal conversation, Jason Tucker shares a transformative moment from his youth that forever changed how he views humanity. Standing on a junior high staircase, he experienced what he describes as a divine revelation about human beauty that has guided his approach to cross-cultural relationships ever since.
As a Black man who grew up in Minneapolis, Tucker developed unique skills for navigating diverse environments—from his predominantly Black neighborhood to educational and professional settings where he was often the only person of color. He shares how these experiences shaped his ability to build bridges across cultural divides while maintaining his authentic self.
The conversation takes a powerful turn when Tucker and Dr. Honor discuss their shared experience on a civil rights tour in Alabama. Initially hesitant to join because of emotional fatigue following George Floyd's death, Tucker describes how walking the same streets where history unfolded provided insights that books and films never could. The "palpable" atmosphere of the South helped him understand personal family decisions in a new light while challenging both men to reconsider how they engage with people across cultural differences.
They explore the tension between extending grace and setting boundaries in cross-cultural relationships, wrestling with when to prioritize others' comfort versus demanding recognition of one's full humanity. Their nuanced discussion touches on the apostle Paul's approach of becoming "all things to all people" while acknowledging the wisdom of knowing when to step back from harmful interactions.
Tucker's entrepreneurial journey reflects his integrated passions—creativity, faith, and human connection. Through his companies JHT Design Studios and Group Lore, he's found meaningful ways to use storytelling to facilitate important conversations, particularly helping young people explore faith questions through engaging science fiction narratives. His approach represents a powerful counterbalance to technology that isolates by using modern tools to foster genuine human connection.
Listen as these two men model the very bridge-building they discuss—approaching difficult topics with honesty, grace, and a shared belief that seeing the divine in everyone transforms how we move through the world.
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#FaithAndRace #Testimony #Inspiration
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is a really weird story but it is.
It's like a real core part ofwho I am in terms of bridge
building and cross-culturallyand otherwise.
I was in junior high, went to aschool, big multi-level school,
this big staircase, two likehuge double staircase and I
remember one day I walked up thefirst flight of stairs, which
was probably like 20 somethingstairs, getting ready to go up
(00:21):
the next flight.
And as I put my foot right onthat first step of that next
flight, there was something thatcame over me that was like a
realization of how beautifulhuman beings are across the
board and that was straight fromGod, like it was not there two
steps earlier, but it was thereon that first step and I've had
it since and it was like thebest way I can describe it is
(00:45):
like a gift of almost seeinghuman beings a little bit closer
to the way God sees them.
It's like man peopleunfortunately miss out on a lot
of really cool relationshipsbecause there is some initial
friction right out of the gateand then stuff kind of
deteriorates from there and alot of times I think it's just
(01:09):
we just don't see each other asfully human as maybe God would
want us to.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
All right, welcome, welcome, welcome to another
edition.
This is one of those reallycool editions of Journey to
Freedom, because Jason and Ihave had the opportunity to
spend some time together overthe last year and it's just been
phenomenal.
Just been phenomenal when wethink about our journey to
freedom and one of the thingsthat you know you probably heard
(01:52):
me talk about during thispodcast and things that is dear
to my heart and wanting to do,is when we were able to take a
trip to Alabama and it was, youknow, it's kind of coined as a
civil rights tour,reconciliation and justice,
really kind of understanding alittle bit about our roots and
where we came from.
And it's a trip that I was ableto go on my first time last
(02:12):
year and then I repeated itagain this year.
Jason was able to go on it.
This year we were able to takea group of Black men.
There was 18 of us that wereBlack men that were there, and
then there was another you knowdisbursement of whether they
were women, or I think there wasone black female that was there
, and then you know severalwhite men and women that were
(02:34):
there as well.
But it was a great integration,it was a great way to
experience Alabama.
And I don't know and Jason willget to talk about this in a
little bit but I was so shockedwhen I went to Alabama and
realized that I felt like I wasback in 1970s.
Well, I don't remember the1970s.
(02:55):
I was five or six years old inthe 1970s.
You were probably even younger,if you were even born in the
70s, not the 80s, but just tothink of all the 70s, I'm
talking about the 80s but justto think of all the things that
you read about, that you learnedabout maybe in history or
learned about from our parentsor learned about from the
community, and to go, trulyexperience it and feel like the
(03:19):
atmosphere I was telling my wifeRenee just yesterday when I
went down there, I felt like mywords.
So I'm doing 100 words thateverybody, every adult, should
know, and my word yesterday waspalpable and you know it's a
word that you know is thatthickness of emotion that you
can almost reach out and touch,and that's what I got there.
So we will talk about thattoday.
(03:42):
But what I'm really excitedabout is Jason and all the
wonderful things he's doing andhow he's interacting with people
and how he's helping people.
And, like all of our guests,I've asked him to tell us his
story, where you know, kind of,where he grew up and what he did
and how his life has meant, andthen we'll talk about maybe
some obstacles or some thingsthat maybe got in the way, and
then where he's going next aboutmaybe some obstacles or some
(04:02):
things that maybe got in the way, and then where he's going next
.
Because what you're going tofind is as I continue to do
these shows and find black menwho are successful.
Successful doesn't necessarilymean the amount of money you
have or the cars you drive orthe material stuff.
It's how you are impacting thecommunity that you're in, and we
got to see each other in churchthe other day and it was like
(04:24):
man.
This is the community thatyou're in, and we got to see
each other in church the otherday and it was just like man.
This is the person that I wantto continue to spend some time
with.
I want to continue to get toknow, and I just see our lives
intersecting with each otherover and over again.
And I can't say that about allof our guests.
I can't say that there's someof the guests that I had that I
probably won't interact withever again.
You know, and it's not becausethey weren't, you know, they're
(04:45):
more fun to be with.
Or, you know, there's a couplethat just said some things that
I'm like oh my gosh, how couldyou believe that way?
Or how could you think that way?
And I, you know, I don't faultthem for it.
I mean, we all grow up in ourown experiences and learn, but
there are people that you knoware part of your pathway and
where God has put us.
You know, part of what I try todo is help people find you know
(05:06):
why God put them on this earthand help them be able to, you
know, encapsulate that and dothat and have reasons for it,
and so I can't wait to have thisconversation with you.
I'm going to let Jason takeover and kind of just tell us
your story a little bit aboutyou and where you're from, and I
can't wait to chop it up afterthat.
So the floor is yours.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Oh man, well, Dr Honor, I really appreciate the
invite.
This is like I was hearingabout, I think, the first two or
three podcasts about a year anda half ago and I was like, oh
my gosh, that's so cool.
I don't know many podcasters,maybe I can count them on one
hand, and so you've been on thisjourney and 150 plus.
(05:50):
So I'm super excited to even bepart of that group.
And yeah, man, I mean, I thinkour initial interactions were
probably two years ago maybe,and I had heard about you like
probably three or four yearsprior to.
Everybody thought that Ialready know you.
So they would just talk aboutoh, do you know brian?
(06:13):
I'm brian.
I'm like hold on, hold on who'sbrian?
What brian are we talking about?
And so finally, I got asked toconnect with you at an issacar
event, um, probably two yearsago.
And so, yeah, our, our, oursatellites have been orbiting
closer and closer and I'mlooking forward to really
getting to know you in themonths and years to come here.
(06:37):
So it's been great, man.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
So you mentioned in terms of like story, like
backstory, as I've been doingthis podcast and when I think
about listeners and whatlisteners has told me, people
want to know what you do.
I mean, because we always talkabout what do you do and what do
you do.
But I think what people reallywant to know, what helps develop
trust and develop a character,is like who are you, you know,
like what is it that is makesyou tick, what makes you go.
(07:05):
Can I relate to that?
And especially when we'reworking and talking with you,
know folks of color Black menwho have kind of whether they've
been marginalized or they justgrew up in different situations,
or you know people want to say,yeah, that's kind of my story
too and yeah, I was able to dothat, or you know somebody well
or I didn't have any issueseither.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
You know my mom and dad were great.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
You know we spent all our time, you know, because not
everybody when we think about alot of folks.
We all think that we all camefrom.
You know the single mom, familypoverty and we had to scratch
our way out of it and simplythat's not true for all of us.
You know, and so other peoplecan relate, relate, and so I
really just kind of want to knowwho.
(07:47):
Who is jason tucker?
Who is this?
That's across from me right nowyeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
So I, I, um, grew up in a um, really loving family.
Um, parents, fortunately, arestill here.
They're in.
Their mom just reminded me theother day.
She's like I'm not 80 yet,jason, I'm not 80 yet.
Dad is early 80s, mom is Iguess you'd let me not even put
(08:16):
her out there like that.
They're seniors and grew up inMinneapolis, apparently right up
the street from where Princegrew up.
I never knew, I never reallytracked it down in terms of
which direction that was, butright in the north side.
So if you've been inMinneapolis, any major city has
(08:38):
a kind of like stigma area.
I guess in Minneapolis, northside would be that.
But Northside represent, um,that's where I grew up and, yeah
, um, grew up in a Christianhousehold.
A disproportionatelydisproportionate amount of my
family are believers, uh, inJesus and so, and followers of
(09:00):
Jesus and like in a real kind ofway, like, uh, like it shows up
Monday through Saturday sort ofway in addition to Sunday, so
that really informed a lot ofwho I am and um, but growing up
in Minnesota and a black family.
We live in a black neighborhoodbut you know you go 10 minutes
(09:22):
in any direction, you're goingto be the only black person and
so early on I just grew uplearning some soft skills in
terms of how to connect withother people that were very
different than I am, and, andyou know, those skills still, uh
(09:44):
, are used today and um, yeah,it's, it's an interesting,
interesting place because it'svery nice.
Like they talk about minnesotanice and it is um, um, but when
you're kind of on an island likethat, culturally speaking it is
, it's a little, it's got someinteresting dynamics to it.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
I didn't mean to just say that you live in Minnesota
in a black neighborhood, andwhen we think about Minnesota we
really don't think like there'slike bi-black people in
Minnesota I think of, like NorthDakota South.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Dakota.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
I think of like maybe Native Americans in those, but
it's not like the black Mecca,where there's this black like
Prince is the only person that Ican think of, other than some
athletes or stuff that wereblack that came from there.
There had to be.
Plus, it's cold.
Most of the folks that I knowdon't want to be nowhere near
the cold.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
It's very similar to Denver, which is where I'm at
now, at now been out here for 20years and it is very similar
where the macro state, the, thepopulation numbers, are almost
the same in terms of there are.
There is a black community here, there's a latino community
here, um, but it's like a veryspecific area and obviously in
(11:08):
the last 10, 15, I shouldn't sayobviously, but that's changed
in the last 15, 20 years.
But yeah, there there is acommunity, but it's very small.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
So so you go to high school and yeah.
Yeah, north, north Highrepresent anything special
happen in your high school yearsthat were contributing factors?
Speaker 1 (11:31):
oh man man we had a lot of fun in high school.
Probably too much, but I wentto really it was a public school
, but a really really strongpublic school, because they had
a really big kind of media umtech, um, it was stem before
(11:52):
stem and and then we had reallystrong um athletics.
We, you know, won some titlesbasketball, basketball titles
and I think recently won somefootball titles.
But it was a real.
(12:12):
It was like a, it was theschool to go to and it happened
to be like right at the streetwhere I live.
But yeah, we man, it was veryformative and it was majority
black school too.
So it was probably I'm guessingI'm kind of throwing these
numbers out so it was probably.
I'm guessing I'm kind ofthrowing these numbers out it
might've been 60%, maybe it was40% black, maybe 50, yeah,
probably 40% black, 30% whiteand 30% everyone else, and so
(12:52):
those numbers might be a littleoff, but yeah, so it was a real
man it was.
At the time I wasn't a fan ofhigh school but looking back,
man, it was kind of nice a rapgroup for a couple of years
there and did a whole bunch of,you know, much maligned
(13:14):
freestyling in the locker roomsand the lunch rooms and all that
stuff and played on a well, Ishouldn't say I played on the
football team.
I practiced on the footballteam for freshman, freshman year
, so that was fun, but it wasyeah, it was.
It was kind of typical, youknow, in terms of, like my high
school, where I was at in thehierarchy, what, what lunch
table did you sit at, jason I, Iwas at the nerd table, the uh,
(13:36):
hip-hop, boom bap, freestyletable.
Um, that was kind of like whereI, where I where, where I lived
, and so, yeah, we're the faropposite end of where all the
cute girls were hanging out.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
It was a great experience to just, you know, to
be in a place you grew up in.
You felt safe.
You know I think that's whereyou know a lot of folks you know
, especially in our culture,that that didn't feel safe, you
know, and didn't have thatdiversity.
You know like for me.
I grew up here.
You're familiar with Denver now, so I went to Cherry Creek High
School and at the time the highschool still had 3,500 students
(14:14):
as many as they have now almost4,000 students but there were
only 30 of us of color in thatschool at the time, so my dad
had been part of an affirmativeaction program so he moved out
to the suburbs off of ArapahoeRoad 925.
Out there back when, likeArapahoe, was a two lane and all
the roads that had to go awayfrom them were dirt roads, and
(14:34):
so that was in 1870 and so Igrew up as not having an
identity and figuring out likewho I was and you know.
So I'm thinking you're talkingabout the lunch table, where
you're at the nerd table.
Well, we had a couple of tables, but we had different buildings
that were not just onelunchroom.
We had three differentbuildings that have lunchrooms
(14:54):
in it and, depending on yourstatus, it would determine which
even building.
So there's one that's calledIndustrial Arts and that's where
a lot of the black kids whowere like musicians and artists
type and that kind of stuff,hung out with, and that was most
of the black kids.
And then there was the, themain cafeteria where all the
athletes were at, and then itwas just the black athletes that
(15:15):
got to hang out there okay andso I was literally confused.
I didn't know.
Like okay, on mondays andtuesdays I'll fit in this
cafeteria.
I was a track guy.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Because you were a track guy, right.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
And so I was a good athlete, so they wanted me at
their tables.
They wanted me to go to theirparties, but I couldn't bring
all my other friends becausethey weren't as wanted, you know
, at the jock table or whateverit is.
They didn't want the band guysat the jock table or whatever it
is, they didn't want the bandguys at the jock table Got it,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
That was my clue.
They were cool to me.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
When we think about those identities that we create
for ourselves.
And as you come out of it,you're doing, doing this and
you're, you know, you're, you're, I don't know.
You're feeling like, hey, I fitinto this group and now you're
going to go to college or startlife afterwards.
What was your identity?
Like that you could do anything, or was it like I don't know
(16:20):
where I fit in?
What kind of yeah?
Speaker 1 (16:40):
You know some of the language you mentioned in terms
of feeling safe, you know, Ithink a lot of it's interesting
because there's a lot of a fine.
There's almost a razor's edgebetween whatever safety means,
because culturally, yes,physically not so much, you know
, I mean like.
So, like our school, it had alot of beautiful things, like a
lot of areas that are kind ofunder you know just financially
(17:05):
just aren't that great.
There's all this other stuffthat comes with that.
So, yeah, there was a lot of Iwouldn't say a lot, but there
was like, if you were to saywhat school would you physically
feel the least safe at, it wasprobably my school.
You know what I mean.
(17:26):
So but when you're in it andyou're, you know all the people,
you kind of know how totraverse the area and kind of
what to do, what not to,generally speaking, but even
with any.
It would catch you, even if youdid know that stuff.
So not so it was, and we haddrive-bys and we had so, uh, but
(17:48):
when I went to college it waslike the opposite.
So I went to a really greatschool, dunwoody institute of
technology, and I want to saythey had a couple thousand,
maybe 1800, 2200 or so graduatesper year, but they had, like
man, probably like five to eightblack people the whole school
(18:10):
and maybe five others.
Everybody else asian, latino,native.
So you would see people downthe hallway and be like yo,
what's up, man, I see you, youknow.
I mean like.
So the safety got invertedwhere it was.
Definitely not there wasn'tanything jumping off physically
(18:31):
in there, but it was like therewas a lot of just uh, you know
it was conversations that werelike were very eye-opening for
me, coming from where I grew upand going in that environment
where it's kind of like youcould tell people felt like
(18:53):
how'd you get in here?
And they felt empowered andemboldened to pressure, test
your ability to navigate andwhat you knew, what you didn't
know.
And you can tell, like I thinkyou grew up in any minority
(19:15):
globally probably has that skillwhere you know really quickly
whether or not you're the firstperson like that that someone is
dealing with.
And in those environmentsyou've got a high ratio of
people, a lot of people that youcould tell you're their first
real encounter.
And that goes for any kind ofminority, like you could say
socioeconomic, say someone who'smaybe disabled, someone who
(19:40):
maybe has an accent, whatever.
Like you go down the list andif you are the other, you can
quickly tell how many otherpeople have interacted.
So at college it's great school,really rigorous program.
Really loved the time there.
But it was like, yeah, it was,it was culturally really tough.
(20:04):
But it was like, yeah, it was,it was culturally really tough.
So I had a kind of a guidancecounselor that kind of held me
down, man, and he was part of aprogram that was, I believe,
initiated by the school to helpbring more minorities through,
and so he was a brother too, andand I would go to his, his
(20:27):
office down on the hall and justkind of decompress we weren't
even talking about.
We would talk about academicsand we talk about class and
homework and grades and all that, but it was the majority of our
conversations were related tolike how in the world am I
(20:49):
trying to survive all this stuffand how did you do it?
And you know, I mean like allthe like trying to.
Just, you know, and I grew upwith a dad Again, my dad's still
around, and like 90 somethingpercent of who I am is him.
Like I'm so much like him it'skind of scary, but he's like
(21:14):
like I respect the heck out ofhim.
He's one of the wisest people,if not the wisest, I've ever met
.
And so I grew up under him andso I had all of that going into
that environment, but it wasstill like man, it was pushing
everything to the limit and soyou just you know, but anyway
(21:37):
that was good training groundfor the market and through all
of that, still leaning on thoseearlier, those early childhood
skills that develop in gradeschool, learn how to communicate
with folks that just have notever ran across or at least
seemed like someone like you forany length of time, and build
(22:01):
relationships with those people.
So one of the things that Ihave, you know, I still remember
I was in junior high, I wasseventh grade.
This is a really weird storybut it is.
It's like a real core part ofwho I am in terms of bridge
building and cross-culturallyand otherwise.
(22:21):
I was in junior high, went to aschool called Franklin and big
like multi-level school, thisbig staircase, to like huge
double staircase, and I rememberone day I walked up the first
flight of stairs, which wasprobably like 20 something
(22:41):
stairs, getting ready to go upthe next flight, and as I put my
foot right on that first stepof that next flight, there was
something that and I wasprobably seventh grade.
So what was I?
11, 10 years old, something likethat, 12, maybe there was
something that came over me.
That was like a realization ofhow beautiful human beings are
(23:09):
across the board and that wasstraight from God, like it was
not there two steps earlier, butit was there on that first step
and I've had it since and itwas like the best way I can
describe it is like a gift ofalmost seeing human beings a
(23:30):
little bit closer to the way Godsees them, where there's just
an inherent like I'm justfascinated and intrigued and
appreciative for people, even ifI don't agree with them.
Appreciative for people even ifI don't agree with them, even
if they're, you know, and that'sa gift, man Cause, it's like
(23:50):
it's a gift that's been tested,you know, over the years,
definitely, but, um, and that'sjust I've.
I've carried that with mebecause it's it's like man.
People unfortunately miss outon a lot of really cool
relationships because there issome initial friction right out
(24:12):
of the gate and then stuff kindof deteriorates from there and a
lot of times I think it's justwe just don't see each other as
fully human as maybe God wouldwant us to.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
That is good, because you were able to see that early
and then I bet that changed theway that you looked at people
and interacted with people,based on seeing them as this
beautiful creature that God puttogether for a purpose and when
you start thinking about that,that's huge if you see that
person as that compared to.
(24:48):
Is this my adversary?
Is this somebody I can competewith?
Is this somebody that I have towatch out for?
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Somebody I trust.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
But if you see them as God made them, then now I
want to get to know them.
I want to get to see who.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
what you intend, yes, yes, yes, what is their story?
What?
What's what's really cool aboutthem and what's what are they
struggling with?
And what you know, are therethings that I have that I can
share with them?
And there are things that theyhave that they can share with me
.
And when you think about thisstage of life, most of us start
(25:22):
off with that kind of wide-eyedview of other people.
Like I remember we had all kindof like different types of
people in grade school and Ididn't see them as, they were
just different people and thatwas.
It was cool.
But it's that junior high wherethat stuff starts to shed and
you start to learn about thesemarkers by which, in theory, we
(25:45):
can kind of predict people'sbehavior and outcomes and how
they're going to interact withus, and we start to get, you
know, kind of like protectiveand for a lot of good reasons.
But that got derailed by thatmoment for me and I was able to
hold on to and then grow thatstill like childlike wonder
(26:07):
around human beings in general.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
so so, yeah, you go to this college that you know
you're, you're trying to figureout who you are and, you know,
come up with an identity, Iguess, for who you're going to
be in the future.
Uh, you graduate and somehowyou end up here in Denver,
colorado, instead of inMinnesota.
What kind of transpired thatone had you.
(26:31):
You know, this is what I can do, this is what my life's going
to be, and then to move acrossthe way from family and
everybody else.
What went into all that?
How did that transpire?
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Yeah, fire, fire in the belly, you know.
So I I went to school fordrafting and estimating and, you
know, wanted to do all thefrank lord wright designy stuff.
You know, architecturalwonderment and, um, that degree
doesn't really facilitate that.
It's like a very utilitarian.
(27:05):
It's a fantastic degree becauseit was two year school.
That's all I have in terms ofmy formal training, but it's
more technical, it's more kindof brass tacks.
Learn how to draw, which I love, learn how to draw a home,
learn how to draw the details ofa home, all that stuff.
But I was not.
That wasn't like enough and Iwas like man, I gotta push past
(27:26):
it, I want to design stuff, andso I just kept pushing that and
kept pushing that um, probablyin too hard in some ways.
Retrospect, um, in terms of,like inner office dynamics and
all that.
Um, yeah, just like a real,just fire man like I.
I was talking to my sister acouple weeks ago but I feel like
I've never, I've never had anormal weekend like.
(27:49):
I've always done extra stuffvocationally on the weekends and
then even at night.
That just is kind of like.
So I've always worked like atleast a job and a half and so I
was pushing a lot of that designstuff and ended up, um, doing
some other kind of tech basedthings just when the internet
(28:10):
was starting to really comeonline and there was some, um
technical things that I wasdoing that got the attention of
some of the home office, uh,folks who were two or three
states over in Michigan and theyended up offering me the
(28:33):
position to do kind of aregional thing with some of that
tech stuff that I was doing atthe, the, the place that I was
working, and they offered me aposition in Denver.
And so I remember it was late, Ithink it was January 21st, 22nd
, 71 degrees in Denver.
We were down in the tech center, which is, for everybody who
doesn't know Denver, it's kindof one of the tech hubs,
(28:56):
southern metro of the city, andwe were at this, you know,
restaurant, lunch, whatever.
They were kind of walking methrough the city and I was there
for like a week just checkingit out Do you want to move here,
jason, kind of stuff, andhere's all the stuff and here's
what the city has to offer.
So we went to lunch and we werein the parking lot clear blue
(29:17):
sky, again January 21st, 71degrees, can see all the way to
the mountains blue cap mountainsor white cap mountains, and I
didn't know anywhere in thenation was 70 anything in
January, especially late January, from Minnesota, because I
think it was like negative 20something.
When I left I was like, oh man,I think I might be able to rock
(29:41):
it out here.
So, yeah, coming out and it wasgreat for a year.
And then the housing marketimploded and you know there's a
bunch of layoffs and a bunch of,you know, destabilizing things.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
But that's what got me out to Denver when you, when
I want to kind of you know,pivot a little bit to and then I
want to jump into faith becauseyou know I kind of started the
show talking about you know ourtrip to Alabama and the thought
process of you, know you're partof these groups.
You're part of you know, nowyou're integrated into our
(30:15):
society.
You're Denver, you'reColoradoan or whatever we call
ourselves.
I was born here and don't evenknow what we call ourselves.
Everybody's like.
Are you native?
Are you native?
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Yeah, yeah, I was born here, I was like oh.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Okay, but then we go back into the South because we
heard about the South.
Maybe kind of just talk alittle bit about your
expectations before you went andthen some of the things you may
have learned that are sodifferent from a Minnesota, or
so different from a Colorado oranywhere else that you just go.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Oh, my God.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Maybe just kind of give us just a quick overview.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
Yeah, yeah, that trip was.
That trip was a gut punch and ahug kind of at the same time,
yeah, and so Scott, who's theexecutive director of Iztikar,
you guys put that trip together.
(31:18):
I was telling him leading up toit, I mean he literally had.
He asked me like threedifferent times so, jason, are
you going to make it out therewith?
I was like, ah, you know, man,I was dragging my feet, man,
because I was like my sister andI had another conversation
about this a couple years ago.
(31:38):
But we were like man, I can'twatch another one of those 12
Years a Slave movies or any ofthat civil rights, any of that
stuff.
Man, I'm like I just myemotional.
I think this hit after this ispost-Floyd.
I was just like man, I'm tryingto do and then try to keep my
(32:07):
spiritual stuff in some form oforder, and then you turn on the
news.
I'm trying not to be unpluggedfrom that.
So I've watched the news, youknow, little bits and pieces
throughout the week and all ofits fantastic stuff happening
there.
And so, man, I was like I, Ialready knew what the trip was
(32:31):
going to be.
I was like, yeah, this is justgoing to be a bunch of like dive
back into yesteryear and awhole bunch of like heavy.
I was just like I don't man, Idon't, I don't have it, I don't
have the reservoir.
So, um, I'm glad that scottdidn't listen and um, yeah, so
(32:59):
the going in.
I was like going in, I was likeall right, well, let's, let's,
let's do it, because I'm notlike, if you go on the spectrum
of like politically sociallyactive would be like you know,
uh, super, yeah, I mean I hateto throw out the term militant
(33:21):
just willy-nilly, but let's justsay that's a 10.
Then you got zero, which islike I don't know what the
heck's going on.
Everything's great.
I'm probably more like in afour to five range where I'm
like it's hard to get me out onsome capital steps.
I'm not like, it's just my.
(33:43):
There's different ways that I'mtrying to move the needle for
my family, for the folks from myvillage, culturally speaking,
for the folks from my um,spiritual family, uh, for, uh,
(34:06):
people in general, artists andstuff.
There's different groups that I, you know, um, advocate for,
and so, yeah, I'm just not like.
I was like man, I don't knowwhere my head is going to be
going in and where it's going tobe coming out and so I'm trying
(34:27):
to.
I'm trying to do stuff for justto hold myself together through
all of this and I got a bunchof mentees and stuff that I want
to be in a good spot for them,and then my family anyway.
So going in, I was like thatwas where I was at.
So going in I was like that waswhere I was at.
The trip itself was amazing andsuper informative and, I think,
(34:50):
big picture and then coming out,the relationships, you guys
brought a huge contingent ofbrothers that were very.
It was just, it was really goodthat you guys were there.
I'll just say that you knowwhat I mean me personally,
that's just that's.
You know um, just to be able toto again coming from my
(35:16):
experience where I'm used tobeing the only one, only black,
and that's been day one, that'scolorado, that's minneapolis,
that's right.
So just to not be that throughgoing, you know, learning about
all that hard stuff was reallyhelpful and it and it was a lot
of the stuff that I had heardabout, read about, saw movies
(35:40):
about um, but it was so muchmore real when you're there on
the grounds and you're walkingthrough the cities that still
just architecturally and inother ways still look and feel
similar to some of that, some ofthose times, and so yeah, that
(36:05):
was yeah, it was transformativeand it was hard and you know I I
used to always wonder why mydad moved to Minnesota.
Because he's from the South andwe got a bunch of family to
Minnesota because he's from theSouth and we got a bunch of
(36:27):
family Memphis and Arkansas andfull of folk out in Texas and
whatnot.
So our crew is down there.
That's like that's where the.
You know, I used to visit, ourfamily used to visit down there,
like once every year or two,growing up so.
But I was always like man, likewhen we would go down there, we
would go to the mall and we goout where you see all these
(36:49):
black people, you just be likeyo man, they.
And then why did dad move allthe way to Minnesota?
Like and this is the trip whereI was like I get it, I'm not
sure if that's why he moved, wasbecause of all that, but for
(37:09):
the first time I felt like Iwould have made that same call
and I'm not sure I don't knowwhat that says, but I get it,
man.
So I got a lot of still downthere and they're still
representing and rocking it outand doing the thing.
But yeah, it was just reallycool.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Well, what I'm going to ask you is because I want to
kind of talk a little bit aboutwhat does it mean to be a black
man in America in 2025,?
but somehow without thatexperience we might have had a
totally different answer before.
That you know.
And then, without being able tokind of give some context to
(37:52):
maybe some of the thoughtprocess, I know for me it has
changed how I look at otherfolks of color, other black men,
and think about what they mayhave gone through, because it
wasn't my experience.
I went to the white high schoolthat had 30 black folks out of
3 000.
I had my own struggles and myown people calling me names and
(38:13):
all that kind of stuff, but notat the extent where I don't know
if I ever believed it was likein death.
You know they might have, youknow they might have called end,
might have done stuff like that.
But then I think I'll tell thosefolks that I could have crossed
the line or I could havecrossed the street and my life
would have ended, or you know,in those circumstances or just
(38:36):
the amount of hate or stuff thatwas there.
I don't know if I felt thatgrowing up.
And then I think how does thattranslate now to where I'm at
now and what I've been able todo and the education that I've
(38:57):
been able to get, and how hasthat affected me?
And I'm now talking to some ofthe folks who were in these
situations whether it's theSouth or whether a small real
poor community in new york orsomething changes my perspective
a little bit and so yeah, andhow do you balance, like, the
information overload of it allwith the?
Speaker 1 (39:17):
okay, now I'm uh doing whatever, the next call,
the next meeting, whatever, witha bunch of people that had
nothing to do with that.
But there's like this tensionbetween, um, the things that the
, the, the ripple effects of allof that stuff that still show
(39:40):
up today and you're heightenedin your awareness of it and
other people may not be other,maybe people may not even
acknowledge it, because it kindof feeds into the next part that
I want to talk to you about itwith is because I see, when my
faith now kicks in and my youknow the circle where I'm at I
(40:02):
see the need more at.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
I see the need more of the need for grace, I see
more of the need for theunderstanding, I see more of the
need for patience than I havebefore.
I don't see the, especiallywith folks now who have had
ancestors or had people thatcame before them that taught
them things you know about us orabout different people or about
(40:27):
different cultures, through notunderstanding right, just
because they were just theirfather told them and their
father told them.
And that's how they have to act, but never have to actually
face it themselves.
You know, I think of the schoolthat you went to, where it was
the first time many of them wereinteracting, school that you
went to where it was the firsttime many of them were
(40:48):
interacting.
Then I think of our, our tourguide, tour guide's dad, who
said I grew up 20 miles fromhere and didn't see any black
folks, you know, for I don'tknow how many years, and the
city's 85 percent black.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
so how did that?
Speaker 2 (41:01):
segregated for them yeah, so the grace that I think
comes from.
That helps me now with myinteraction in my relationships
and when I when I whether I'mtalking to somebody who's white,
who just hasn't had anyexposure, or I'm talking to a
black man who's super angrybecause of yep, some of it is-
(41:22):
real and how he was treated.
And you know I think about youknow now I listen to my mom and
my dad tell me stories ofdrinking out of colored drinking
fountains and you know my unclegetting beaten just because he
was drove around off the wrongyou know side of the county or
something like that.
You don't want to go.
Okay, none of that should havehappened, none of that.
(41:44):
But at the same time, the folksthat are alive now aren't the
ones who did it.
We just have to make sure theydon't perpetuate it.
Right, and so that thoughtprocess then gets to how do I
now help understanding?
How do I help them to feel, ornot even feel?
But when they ask questions, Idon't get mad at them for asking
(42:06):
the questions because I truly,like I do not know.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
Yeah, well, you didn't grow in my house yeah,
and I, man, I'd love to do adive on uh, which you just
mentioned in terms of the feelpart, what I alluded to earlier.
There there's a conversation, alegitimate one, in the black
community Well, I think it's ina number of communities, but
(42:29):
it's kind of like, at what pointdo I have to stop worrying
about how people feel?
And so what I was alluding toearlier in terms of the soft
skills, do you grow up?
Learning?
Is you learn how to make otherpeople at least I did less on
edge because of whatever theirperceptions are around you as a
(42:55):
person and all the things youbring to the table as a person?
And in this case, some of thosethings are your cultural
background and so it.
There's a lot, of a lot of blackfolk that are kind of at a
point where they're like look,man, I don't care how
comfortable or uncomfortable,that's a you problem if blah,
(43:16):
blah, blah, you.
And I haven't settled on thatmyself.
I'm curious on, like from afaith standpoint, when I'm
thinking about Paul saying youknow, I became all things for
all people, so that and itwasn't so that they would be
(43:40):
nice to me, but so that theywould let me not misquote this
but mainly so that there wouldbe inroads, or at least a bridge
to be able to share the lifetransformative stuff of Jesus
with other people.
And so how do you balance thatall that olive branching with?
(44:03):
Sometimes you're not alwayslike poker, waving those olive
branches away and saying, look,you know, I'm not trying to see
things your way and I don't carewhatever you're talking about.
And yeah, like, how do you oneof the things that a pastor told
(44:26):
me.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
A really good friend pastor of mine told me that
hurting people hurt people.
Hurting people hurt people, andso I always, when somebody's
lashing out or saying somethings that are just off, first
I went are they hurting?
And if I can get to the bottom,why they're hurting, we may be
able to come together throughrelationship.
But then I get to people whoare just it doesn't matter what
(44:50):
race they are, or what colorthey're from.
they're just bad people, they'reevil people and I don't have a
lot of tolerance for that.
I don't have a lot of hey.
I've reached out, I've tried tohave a conversation and you are
just.
I'll just say you're juststupid.
And so then now thatconversation is no longer that
(45:13):
relationship, and maybe that'sjust on me where I'm not
reaching out anymore, I'm nottrying to resolve it, because
there's this genuine you don'tcare, You're going to do what
you're going to do.
And then you might even try totake advantage of me and my
kindness and my niceness, and sothat's where you know I can
(45:35):
reconcile with, with God orwhoever, and say look, you know
God, I reached out.
I know you said do a 70 times70, but I get like 70 times
divided by 7.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
I'm not there yet, right.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
Because it is hard, it is, it's that balance where
you go.
Okay, you know this is whereand I am aware of all the things
that happen, are you Like?
This weekend I was at the statetrack meeting and I was talking
to a history person that givesthe history and he's teaching
junior high kids.
You know he's going on and onabout our founders and that kind
(46:13):
of stuff.
And I said, well, you know,because we learned.
You know about what Dr Mack hadtold us about George Washington
.
And they say so what kind ofhistory do you give about George
Washington's teeth?
Oh, that they were wooden andhe had it.
And I said, well, no, he tookthem out of a slave's mouth and
he put them in his mouth.
And so are you even looking atother ways of sharing history?
(46:34):
Is history only from the personwho conquered?
Is that the only perspective weget to see?
Or we get to know?
And if that's the case, thenit's really hard to have.
You know, get into arelationship you know that you
and I can be in.
If all you can see is whatyou've been taught, all you can
(46:55):
see is what and that's not justtaught from school.
It's taught from your parents,it's taught from your community,
it's taught from wherever.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
I feel like there's like a curiosity quotient that
it's needed, where, if you'rethe expert coming and going on
everything, it's tough, man,it's tough.
And I think that slice can bemajority culture, that can be
minorities, that can bedifferent socioeconomic, that
(47:28):
can be spiritual conversationsof different groups, but it's
like I think the frustrationthat a lot of people myself have
included is like man, like we,we can't.
So in some ways I'm part ofgroups that are like that, like
(47:50):
if I feel like guys tend to belike that, I feel like
Christians in general in theWest tend to be like that, we're
just the experts, we show up,boom, we got it.
And unfortunately there's a lotof um, my majority, uh, experts
, culturally speaking, um, thatjust live that as well, and so
(48:14):
in certain ways I'm on the sidewhere I'm like, oh man, I need
to do a better job of not doingthat.
And other times I'm seeing itdone and I'm like, yeah, they
need to do a better job of notdoing that, because it's like
everyone knows this.
Mathematically, you talk about10 000 hours, and time is one of
the main objective.
(48:35):
Things that you can say relateto a person's ability to speak
into something with some sort ofauthority and some sort of
insight that should be listenedto, right, but, like my college
experience and a lot of ourexperience, you have people that
are experts on you, that arejust meeting their first black
(48:56):
person such an expert and soit's just, we got to show grace
but also remind folks that, likeman, you got to be a little
more curious about what's reallygoing on that might be outside
(49:20):
or might be in a blind spot ormight be outside of what you've
seen up to this point and I andthen, like I think as a believer
, as a Christian, we're majorityin this country and we care
ourselves sometime that way, andjust like plow through a whole
bunch of stuff and not askingany questions, oh yeah,
everybody gets understood, blah,blah, blah, blah, and and we're
(49:40):
not as curious as we should be,and and we're not as curious as
we should be, and so, man, Ijust feel like there's just a
lot of curiosity that is needed,that a little bit more
listening, a little more askingquestions like legit, like real,
like I really want to know, andjust sit back and letting it
wash over would do.
Speaker 2 (50:02):
I try to show up in conversations, and I heard this
from Myron saying it.
At one time he said everyconversation I'm in, I'm 100%
right.
I'm 100% right that there's a50% chance I don't know what I'm
talking about that I do.
I'm 100% right about that.
But if I'm right and we can gothrough this conversation and
(50:29):
show that I'm right and mybelief systems are well enough
that I'm going to defend them,then I want to continue to say
okay, this is why I'm right.
But on the other side of it, ifI'm wrong, I want to be able to
do this stuff to correct that.
And I think that's where welack is, we don't want to
correct it, because that meansthat we've been wrong for a long
time.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
We've been wrong for however long, and that goes back
to that beauty of like.
People are fascinating andamazing creatures and they are
made by God and they've beenbopping around earth, earth,
learning and accumulatingknowledge and wisdom.
Um, and it's so cool to learnfrom other people like you,
(51:11):
literally are getting, like, uh,old school nintendo, uh, those
books that you used to get toget the code, the cheat code,
where you get extra life, youget extra board, you get, I mean
, anytime you're interactingwith another person, that's an
opportunity to learn stuff youwould never in your own shoes be
(51:31):
able to learn.
And it's just so cool becauseGod is blessing everybody with
various different things thatthey can share with the
collective, various differentthings that they can share with
the collective.
And if we're just kind ofoutright saying, man, I already
know about your folk, there'snothing really here for you to
teach me, then, like that's,we're losing out.
Speaker 2 (51:52):
The older I get, the more that I know.
I don't know a whole lot, butthe fear comes in is when I
interact with you.
If I have this fear thatsomehow, if you learn or get
what I have, then it's going totake away from me having it.
And it's this whole thing oflack you spend so much time,
whether it's subconscious orconsciously going.
(52:15):
if I share with you, if I giveto you, and then all of a sudden
, now you get what I have, thatmeans you're taking it away from
me, instead of thinking that isa cloud of abundance and
there's a cloud of it and I lookat our division in our country
right now and I say, okay, we'vegot to take all this stuff away
, because these folks aregetting to the point where if
(52:37):
they get all of our jobs whichwill never happen but if they
take our culture, if they takeall of this from us, that means
we don't have it anymore, and soI'm nice to that person.
I try to understand that person.
I'm giving away something I maynever get back.
Speaker 1 (52:51):
Yeah, acknowledge that we are the wealthiest and
the most powerful nation,arguably that's ever been, and
possibly that is right now,while we also can still be
(53:14):
afraid that we don't have enough, and humans have figured out
how to survive and thrive on alot less than we have.
So there is a and, particularlyif you're you know, if you hold
that, while also being abeliever and follower of Jesus.
(53:36):
When Jesus is like don't worryabout the birds of the air, I
got them.
You know what I mean.
Don't worry about what clothesyou're gonna wear, I got you
like our.
It's like we are.
We're really believing inourselves more than we're
believing in god when we'rethinking there's not enough to
go around I want to.
Speaker 2 (53:57):
Just we'll just pick a little bit more right now,
just because I want to get toand this has been an amazing
opportunity we're going to dothis again at some point.
I want to kind of give theopportunity for you to kind of
really talk about you and whatyou're doing and what makes you
excited about life.
And you know I can see thatyou're very thoughtful and that
you're thinking about how do Iinteract in this world.
(54:19):
But what are some of the thingsthat you know?
We got to, you know college,and then you moved to Colorado
and you want to do architectureand you got this faith and like,
what is it that Jason's doingnow that it is makes life even
more exciting?
Speaker 1 (54:38):
Man, I'll tell you, I feel like I'm in the groove and
have been for several yearsright where God wants me to be.
I can't tell the future, but Ifeel like this is the.
So I've always been kind of acreative, artsy person which
goes into architecture stuff.
And so, coming out of thehousing market implosion, when I
(55:01):
moved out of architecture, Iended up getting into graph
design and started to launch myown company, jht Design Studios,
15 plus years ago, and reallyhave a love for creating
artistic things, a love forpeople, a love for God, a love
for connecting people in a waythat is honoring to God.
(55:26):
And so I ended up doing andstill am, with my main company,
jhd Design Studios, a lot ofbranding and identity websites
that are all about the story ofmy clients and their story is
(55:46):
really about the story of myclients and their story is
really about the story of theirclients.
And so helping them tell thatstory through design is what I
do, and that keeps the lights onstorytelling from a service
basement standpoint.
And then, several years ago, Ilaunched a storytelling company
as a product based, and so thatis scratching another artistic
itch of mine, and so we're stillramping that up and it's the
(56:10):
company is called group lore andwe use imaginative storytelling
to spark fun faithconversations for young people,
specifically like middle gradeage students and a little bit
older, and so at that age wherethey're starting to really form
(56:32):
a lot of their big pictureidentity around some of the
questions that they're askingand like getting answers,
gathering answers it's thatcoming of age stuff, joseph
campbell, all of that.
So, and I love it, man, becausewhat we're trying to do is
facilitate conversation, which Ithink is something that
(56:55):
universally could beacknowledged as a need and maybe
a muscle that's kind ofatrophied in a lot of ways in
society.
And I'll say I'll raise my handas a Christian, like, I think
we do conversation poorly and Ithink we've in the last probably
five or 10 years cliff fault,we were already bad at it, but I
(57:20):
think we've.
I mean, it's just, and so whatwe're trying to do is bring
healthy conversation back andspecifically around faith
exploration, and so we're usingthese fun science fiction
stories to do that and it's just, it's like all the stuff that
(57:42):
God has made me to do, stuffthat I have some aptitude for,
but stuff that I'm just reallypassionate about as well, and
all mixed together and we'redoing some really fun stuff.
Speaker 2 (57:54):
You're making an impact in a way that a lot of
other people aren't, wheneverybody's you know one in one
direction.
You're finding ways to get intoa relationship.
You're finding ways to helppeople.
I think we start gravitatingtowards all this technology,
whether it's AI now or whateverit is, and you're utilizing the
(58:15):
technology to bring us backtogether.
Speaker 1 (58:21):
Yeah, we want to have .
I mean haven't dived dove intothe.
We've talked some some ai stuff.
I think you're further down theuh, the approval train that I
am on that I I have some verystrong views on ai from a
cautionary tale standpoint.
But in terms of technology ingeneral, yeah, we're, we're
(58:43):
embracing it because that'swhere young people are and we're
taking the approach where whatdid Jesus do when he and his
disciples were doing their thingFirst century?
They were going to where peoplewere, not where they wanted them
to be, and then they wereforming relationships and having
conversations, conversationsand asking questions and eating
(59:05):
and hanging out and sharing someinsights on occasion.
And that's what we're trying todo.
So we want to use thetechnology because that's where
young people are, and then whatwe're doing is taking this story
, that's leveraging thattechnology and then bouncing
them back off of the deviceswhich all of us are addicted to
(59:27):
and they're no different intoreal relationships.
And so at the end of each ofthese episodes, these stories
that group lore creates, youhave kind of like a series of
trivia questions where you'reable to actually ask story-based
questions about faith and aboutlife and about philosophy and
(59:49):
about your own personal storyjust off of the story you just
read, and so this is again in ascience fiction and it's fun,
adventure stuff.
But we're able to bounce off ofthat back into the who are the
people in your life, and so wewant to facilitate small group
conversations and family tableconversations and mentor mentee
conversations off of somethingthat's fun and adventure, uh,
(01:00:13):
venturing, you know, uh, butthen allow real stuff to happen
off of that in real life, offthe device.
Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
So that's, that's how so many really incredible
things that we've just been ableto, that's how we're doing so
many really incredible thingsthat we've just been able to
dive into and we're kind of attime.
What didn't we talk about thatyou want to make sure that you
shared with the folks that aregoing to watch this episode.
My goal, or my dream, would bethat you and I get to have some
more conversations where wereally get to get into the
(01:00:41):
philosophical portions of it andwhy things happen, how we can
help others and, uh, at somepoint, I believe you could be an
incredible uh, you know podcasthost where you're bringing
people in and having theseconversations.
Not that that's one more thingto add to your plate, but you,
yeah, you turn this conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:01:01):
Oh good, you turned this conversation.
It's on.
Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
Because you're asking me questions.
It's about that attention, thatyou got that heart for
knowledge and curiosity.
So this conversation, for thoseof you who are watching, is far
from being over, and it's farfrom being over where you get to
be a part of it.
But at the same time, what didwe not talk about that you want
to make sure During this episode?
(01:01:23):
Is there a way to find?
out about group lore.
Is there a way to you know,find out other stuff you're
doing, because I want you tomake sure that yeah, people do
want to they can.
Speaker 1 (01:01:32):
They can communicate with you yeah, I would love for,
if, if, if anyone out therelistening that has a young
person in their life again, likemiddle school or even early
high school or maybe even alittle older, but basically are
into fiction and imaginativestorytelling and wants to have a
(01:01:56):
faith conversation and finds itreally hard and really
difficult difficult, given allof the complexity that we're all
juggling.
I would love for them to dropby grouplorecom and take a look
at what we're doing over there,because we're making this for
parents, mentors, christianeducators and just young people
(01:02:17):
and young people at heart ingeneral that want to explore
some of the deepest questionsthat we have in life about what
is going on in all of thisbrokenness in our world and is
there hope through all of that?
But also really love adventureand story and cool sci-fi, uh,
(01:02:42):
uh, epic stuff.
So, yeah, that's what we'retrying to do over there and we'd
love to check it out.
Speaker 2 (01:02:49):
Um you know the website to go to.
Please check it out.
I just this has been an amazingconversation.
I can't wait to have more withyou offline and online.
Uh, and begin to unpack our,our purposes here why we're here
and why God put us on thisplanet.
I think this is just such a goodspot for us to be able just to
(01:03:09):
have these conversations andtalk, because the more of these
conversations that can be had,the more of these conversations
that we can begin to talk aboutrelationship and why God put us
here, the better we are as asociety.
And so I love the example thatyou gave.
I love the things that you'redoing for the community and I
(01:03:30):
just can't wait to talk to youagain.
So, for those of you who havenot subscribed to this yet, go
ahead and subscribe.
Hit the notification button,hit those Some really good folks
that we get to talk to on aweekly basis that we're putting
out a couple times a week.
We're putting out theseepisodes that people can be a
part of and interact.
So, any closing thoughts, I'llgive you the last word and then
(01:03:52):
we'll be out for this episode.
Speaker 1 (01:03:56):
No man Blessings, God's not.
He's not surprised by any stuffgoing on.
So move forward, plow forward,all right.
So move forward, plow forward,all right.
Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
So don't forget to God's greatest gift he loves you
to allow him to, and we can'twait to talk to you on the next
one.
Have a great, wonderful day.
This is a really weird story but it is.
It's like a real core part ofwho I am in terms of bridge
building and cross-culturallyand otherwise.
I was in junior high, went to aschool, big multi-level school,
this big staircase, two likehuge double staircase and I
remember one day I walked up thefirst flight of stairs, which
was probably like 20 somethingstairs, getting ready to go up
(00:21):
the next flight.
And as I put my foot right onthat first step of that next
flight, there was something thatcame over me that was like a
realization of how beautifulhuman beings are across the
board and that was straight fromGod, like it was not there two
steps earlier, but it was thereon that first step and I've had
it since and it was like thebest way I can describe it is
(00:45):
like a gift of almost seeinghuman beings a little bit closer
to the way God sees them.
It's like man peopleunfortunately miss out on a lot
of really cool relationshipsbecause there is some initial
friction right out of the gateand then stuff kind of
deteriorates from there and alot of times I think it's just
(01:09):
we just don't see each other asfully human as maybe God would
want us to.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
All right, welcome, welcome, welcome to another
edition.
This is one of those reallycool editions of Journey to
Freedom, because Jason and Ihave had the opportunity to
spend some time together overthe last year and it's just been
phenomenal.
Just been phenomenal when wethink about our journey to
freedom and one of the thingsthat you know you probably heard
(01:52):
me talk about during thispodcast and things that is dear
to my heart and wanting to do,is when we were able to take a
trip to Alabama and it was, youknow, it's kind of coined as a
civil rights tour,reconciliation and justice,
really kind of understanding alittle bit about our roots and
where we came from.
And it's a trip that I was ableto go on my first time last
(02:12):
year and then I repeated itagain this year.
Jason was able to go on it.
This year we were able to takea group of Black men.
There was 18 of us that wereBlack men that were there, and
then there was another you knowdisbursement of whether they
were women, or I think there wasone black female that was there
, and then you know severalwhite men and women that were
(02:34):
there as well.
But it was a great integration,it was a great way to
experience Alabama.
And I don't know and Jason willget to talk about this in a
little bit but I was so shockedwhen I went to Alabama and
realized that I felt like I wasback in 1970s.
Well, I don't remember the1970s.
(02:55):
I was five or six years old inthe 1970s.
You were probably even younger,if you were even born in the
70s, not the 80s, but just tothink of all the 70s, I'm
talking about the 80s but justto think of all the things that
you read about, that you learnedabout maybe in history or
learned about from our parentsor learned about from the
community, and to go, trulyexperience it and feel like the
(03:19):
atmosphere I was telling my wifeRenee just yesterday when I
went down there, I felt like mywords.
So I'm doing 100 words thateverybody, every adult, should
know, and my word yesterday waspalpable and you know it's a
word that you know is thatthickness of emotion that you
can almost reach out and touch,and that's what I got there.
So we will talk about thattoday.
(03:42):
But what I'm really excitedabout is Jason and all the
wonderful things he's doing andhow he's interacting with people
and how he's helping people.
And, like all of our guests,I've asked him to tell us his
story, where you know, kind of,where he grew up and what he did
and how his life has meant, andthen we'll talk about maybe
some obstacles or some thingsthat maybe got in the way, and
then where he's going next aboutmaybe some obstacles or some
(04:02):
things that maybe got in the way, and then where he's going next
.
Because what you're going tofind is as I continue to do
these shows and find black menwho are successful.
Successful doesn't necessarilymean the amount of money you
have or the cars you drive orthe material stuff.
It's how you are impacting thecommunity that you're in, and we
got to see each other in churchthe other day and it was like
(04:24):
man.
This is the community thatyou're in, and we got to see
each other in church the otherday and it was just like man.
This is the person that I wantto continue to spend some time
with.
I want to continue to get toknow, and I just see our lives
intersecting with each otherover and over again.
And I can't say that about allof our guests.
I can't say that there's someof the guests that I had that I
probably won't interact withever again.
You know, and it's not becausethey weren't, you know, they're
(04:45):
more fun to be with.
Or, you know, there's a couplethat just said some things that
I'm like oh my gosh, how couldyou believe that way?
Or how could you think that way?
And I, you know, I don't faultthem for it.
I mean, we all grow up in ourown experiences and learn, but
there are people that you knoware part of your pathway and
where God has put us.
You know, part of what I try todo is help people find you know
(05:06):
why God put them on this earthand help them be able to, you
know, encapsulate that and dothat and have reasons for it,
and so I can't wait to have thisconversation with you.
I'm going to let Jason takeover and kind of just tell us
your story a little bit aboutyou and where you're from, and I
can't wait to chop it up afterthat.
So the floor is yours.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Oh man, well, Dr Honor, I really appreciate the
invite.
This is like I was hearingabout, I think, the first two or
three podcasts about a year anda half ago and I was like, oh
my gosh, that's so cool.
I don't know many podcasters,maybe I can count them on one
hand, and so you've been on thisjourney and 150 plus.
(05:50):
So I'm super excited to even bepart of that group.
And yeah, man, I mean, I thinkour initial interactions were
probably two years ago maybe,and I had heard about you like
probably three or four yearsprior to.
Everybody thought that Ialready know you.
So they would just talk aboutoh, do you know brian?
(06:13):
I'm brian.
I'm like hold on, hold on who'sbrian?
What brian are we talking about?
And so finally, I got asked toconnect with you at an issacar
event, um, probably two yearsago.
And so, yeah, our, our, oursatellites have been orbiting
closer and closer and I'mlooking forward to really
getting to know you in themonths and years to come here.
(06:37):
So it's been great, man.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
So you mentioned in terms of like story, like
backstory, as I've been doingthis podcast and when I think
about listeners and whatlisteners has told me, people
want to know what you do.
I mean, because we always talkabout what do you do and what do
you do.
But I think what people reallywant to know, what helps develop
trust and develop a character,is like who are you, you know,
like what is it that is makesyou tick, what makes you go.
(07:05):
Can I relate to that?
And especially when we'reworking and talking with you,
know folks of color Black menwho have kind of whether they've
been marginalized or they justgrew up in different situations,
or you know people want to say,yeah, that's kind of my story
too and yeah, I was able to dothat, or you know somebody well
or I didn't have any issueseither.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
You know my mom and dad were great.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
You know we spent all our time, you know, because not
everybody when we think about alot of folks.
We all think that we all camefrom.
You know the single mom, familypoverty and we had to scratch
our way out of it and simplythat's not true for all of us.
You know, and so other peoplecan relate, relate, and so I
really just kind of want to knowwho.
(07:47):
Who is jason tucker?
Who is this?
That's across from me right nowyeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
So I, I, um, grew up in a um, really loving family.
Um, parents, fortunately, arestill here.
They're in.
Their mom just reminded me theother day.
She's like I'm not 80 yet,jason, I'm not 80 yet.
Dad is early 80s, mom is Iguess you'd let me not even put
(08:16):
her out there like that.
They're seniors and grew up inMinneapolis, apparently right up
the street from where Princegrew up.
I never knew, I never reallytracked it down in terms of
which direction that was, butright in the north side.
So if you've been inMinneapolis, any major city has
(08:38):
a kind of like stigma area.
I guess in Minneapolis, northside would be that.
But Northside represent, um,that's where I grew up and, yeah
, um, grew up in a Christianhousehold.
A disproportionatelydisproportionate amount of my
family are believers, uh, inJesus and so, and followers of
(09:00):
Jesus and like in a real kind ofway, like, uh, like it shows up
Monday through Saturday sort ofway in addition to Sunday, so
that really informed a lot ofwho I am and um, but growing up
in Minnesota and a black family.
We live in a black neighborhoodbut you know you go 10 minutes
(09:22):
in any direction, you're goingto be the only black person and
so early on I just grew uplearning some soft skills in
terms of how to connect withother people that were very
different than I am, and, andyou know, those skills still, uh
(09:44):
, are used today and um, yeah,it's, it's an interesting,
interesting place because it'svery nice.
Like they talk about minnesotanice and it is um, um, but when
you're kind of on an island likethat, culturally speaking it is
, it's a little, it's got someinteresting dynamics to it.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
I didn't mean to just say that you live in Minnesota
in a black neighborhood, andwhen we think about Minnesota we
really don't think like there'slike bi-black people in
Minnesota I think of, like NorthDakota South.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Dakota.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
I think of like maybe Native Americans in those, but
it's not like the black Mecca,where there's this black like
Prince is the only person that Ican think of, other than some
athletes or stuff that wereblack that came from there.
There had to be.
Plus, it's cold.
Most of the folks that I knowdon't want to be nowhere near
the cold.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
It's very similar to Denver, which is where I'm at
now, at now been out here for 20years and it is very similar
where the macro state, the, thepopulation numbers, are almost
the same in terms of there are.
There is a black community here, there's a latino community
here, um, but it's like a veryspecific area and obviously in
(11:08):
the last 10, 15, I shouldn't sayobviously, but that's changed
in the last 15, 20 years.
But yeah, there there is acommunity, but it's very small.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
So so you go to high school and yeah.
Yeah, north, north Highrepresent anything special
happen in your high school yearsthat were contributing factors?
Speaker 1 (11:31):
oh man man we had a lot of fun in high school.
Probably too much, but I wentto really it was a public school
, but a really really strongpublic school, because they had
a really big kind of media umtech, um, it was stem before
(11:52):
stem and and then we had reallystrong um athletics.
We, you know, won some titlesbasketball, basketball titles
and I think recently won somefootball titles.
But it was a real.
(12:12):
It was like a, it was theschool to go to and it happened
to be like right at the streetwhere I live.
But yeah, we man, it was veryformative and it was majority
black school too.
So it was probably I'm guessingI'm kind of throwing these
numbers out so it was probably.
I'm guessing I'm kind ofthrowing these numbers out it
might've been 60%, maybe it was40% black, maybe 50, yeah,
probably 40% black, 30% whiteand 30% everyone else, and so
(12:52):
those numbers might be a littleoff, but yeah, so it was a real
man it was.
At the time I wasn't a fan ofhigh school but looking back,
man, it was kind of nice a rapgroup for a couple of years
there and did a whole bunch of,you know, much maligned
(13:14):
freestyling in the locker roomsand the lunch rooms and all that
stuff and played on a well, Ishouldn't say I played on the
football team.
I practiced on the footballteam for freshman, freshman year
, so that was fun, but it wasyeah, it was.
It was kind of typical, youknow, in terms of, like my high
school, where I was at in thehierarchy, what, what lunch
table did you sit at, jason I, Iwas at the nerd table, the uh,
(13:36):
hip-hop, boom bap, freestyletable.
Um, that was kind of like whereI, where I where, where I lived
, and so, yeah, we're the faropposite end of where all the
cute girls were hanging out.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
It was a great experience to just, you know, to
be in a place you grew up in.
You felt safe.
You know I think that's whereyou know a lot of folks you know
, especially in our culture,that that didn't feel safe, you
know, and didn't have thatdiversity.
You know like for me.
I grew up here.
You're familiar with Denver now, so I went to Cherry Creek High
School and at the time the highschool still had 3,500 students
(14:14):
as many as they have now almost4,000 students but there were
only 30 of us of color in thatschool at the time, so my dad
had been part of an affirmativeaction program so he moved out
to the suburbs off of ArapahoeRoad 925.
Out there back when, likeArapahoe, was a two lane and all
the roads that had to go awayfrom them were dirt roads, and
(14:34):
so that was in 1870 and so Igrew up as not having an
identity and figuring out likewho I was and you know.
So I'm thinking you're talkingabout the lunch table, where
you're at the nerd table.
Well, we had a couple of tables, but we had different buildings
that were not just onelunchroom.
We had three differentbuildings that have lunchrooms
(14:54):
in it and, depending on yourstatus, it would determine which
even building.
So there's one that's calledIndustrial Arts and that's where
a lot of the black kids whowere like musicians and artists
type and that kind of stuff,hung out with, and that was most
of the black kids.
And then there was the, themain cafeteria where all the
athletes were at, and then itwas just the black athletes that
(15:15):
got to hang out there okay andso I was literally confused.
I didn't know.
Like okay, on mondays andtuesdays I'll fit in this
cafeteria.
I was a track guy.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Because you were a track guy, right.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
And so I was a good athlete, so they wanted me at
their tables.
They wanted me to go to theirparties, but I couldn't bring
all my other friends becausethey weren't as wanted, you know
, at the jock table or whateverit is.
They didn't want the band guysat the jock table or whatever it
is, they didn't want the bandguys at the jock table Got it,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
That was my clue.
They were cool to me.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
When we think about those identities that we create
for ourselves.
And as you come out of it,you're doing, doing this and
you're, you know, you're, you're, I don't know.
You're feeling like, hey, I fitinto this group and now you're
going to go to college or startlife afterwards.
What was your identity?
Like that you could do anything, or was it like I don't know
(16:20):
where I fit in?
What kind of yeah?
Speaker 1 (16:40):
You know some of the language you mentioned in terms
of feeling safe, you know, Ithink a lot of it's interesting
because there's a lot of a fine.
There's almost a razor's edgebetween whatever safety means,
because culturally, yes,physically not so much, you know
, I mean like.
So, like our school, it had alot of beautiful things, like a
lot of areas that are kind ofunder you know just financially
(17:05):
just aren't that great.
There's all this other stuffthat comes with that.
So, yeah, there was a lot of Iwouldn't say a lot, but there
was like, if you were to saywhat school would you physically
feel the least safe at, it wasprobably my school.
You know what I mean.
(17:26):
So but when you're in it andyou're, you know all the people,
you kind of know how totraverse the area and kind of
what to do, what not to,generally speaking, but even
with any.
It would catch you, even if youdid know that stuff.
So not so it was, and we haddrive-bys and we had so, uh, but
(17:48):
when I went to college it waslike the opposite.
So I went to a really greatschool, dunwoody institute of
technology, and I want to saythey had a couple thousand,
maybe 1800, 2200 or so graduatesper year, but they had, like
man, probably like five to eightblack people the whole school
(18:10):
and maybe five others.
Everybody else asian, latino,native.
So you would see people downthe hallway and be like yo,
what's up, man, I see you, youknow.
I mean like.
So the safety got invertedwhere it was.
Definitely not there wasn'tanything jumping off physically
(18:31):
in there, but it was like therewas a lot of just uh, you know
it was conversations that werelike were very eye-opening for
me, coming from where I grew upand going in that environment
where it's kind of like youcould tell people felt like
(18:53):
how'd you get in here?
And they felt empowered andemboldened to pressure, test
your ability to navigate andwhat you knew, what you didn't
know.
And you can tell, like I thinkyou grew up in any minority
(19:15):
globally probably has that skillwhere you know really quickly
whether or not you're the firstperson like that that someone is
dealing with.
And in those environmentsyou've got a high ratio of
people, a lot of people that youcould tell you're their first
real encounter.
And that goes for any kind ofminority, like you could say
socioeconomic, say someone who'smaybe disabled, someone who
(19:40):
maybe has an accent, whatever.
Like you go down the list andif you are the other, you can
quickly tell how many otherpeople have interacted.
So at college it's great school,really rigorous program.
Really loved the time there.
But it was like, yeah, it was,it was culturally really tough.
(20:04):
But it was like, yeah, it was,it was culturally really tough.
So I had a kind of a guidancecounselor that kind of held me
down, man, and he was part of aprogram that was, I believe,
initiated by the school to helpbring more minorities through,
and so he was a brother too, andand I would go to his, his
(20:27):
office down on the hall and justkind of decompress we weren't
even talking about.
We would talk about academicsand we talk about class and
homework and grades and all that, but it was the majority of our
conversations were related tolike how in the world am I
(20:49):
trying to survive all this stuffand how did you do it?
And you know, I mean like allthe like trying to.
Just, you know, and I grew upwith a dad Again, my dad's still
around, and like 90 somethingpercent of who I am is him.
Like I'm so much like him it'skind of scary, but he's like
(21:14):
like I respect the heck out ofhim.
He's one of the wisest people,if not the wisest, I've ever met
.
And so I grew up under him andso I had all of that going into
that environment, but it wasstill like man, it was pushing
everything to the limit and soyou just you know, but anyway
(21:37):
that was good training groundfor the market and through all
of that, still leaning on thoseearlier, those early childhood
skills that develop in gradeschool, learn how to communicate
with folks that just have notever ran across or at least
seemed like someone like you forany length of time, and build
(22:01):
relationships with those people.
So one of the things that Ihave, you know, I still remember
I was in junior high, I wasseventh grade.
This is a really weird storybut it is.
It's like a real core part ofwho I am in terms of bridge
building and cross-culturallyand otherwise.
(22:21):
I was in junior high, went to aschool called Franklin and big
like multi-level school, thisbig staircase, to like huge
double staircase, and I rememberone day I walked up the first
flight of stairs, which wasprobably like 20 something
(22:41):
stairs, getting ready to go upthe next flight, and as I put my
foot right on that first stepof that next flight, there was
something that and I wasprobably seventh grade.
So what was I?
11, 10 years old, something likethat, 12, maybe there was
something that came over me.
That was like a realization ofhow beautiful human beings are
(23:09):
across the board and that wasstraight from God, like it was
not there two steps earlier, butit was there on that first step
and I've had it since and itwas like the best way I can
describe it is like a gift ofalmost seeing human beings a
(23:30):
little bit closer to the way Godsees them, where there's just
an inherent like I'm justfascinated and intrigued and
appreciative for people, even ifI don't agree with them.
Appreciative for people even ifI don't agree with them, even
if they're, you know, and that'sa gift, man Cause, it's like
(23:50):
it's a gift that's been tested,you know, over the years,
definitely, but, um, and that'sjust I've.
I've carried that with mebecause it's it's like man.
People unfortunately miss outon a lot of really cool
relationships because there issome initial friction right out
(24:12):
of the gate and then stuff kindof deteriorates from there and a
lot of times I think it's justwe just don't see each other as
fully human as maybe God wouldwant us to.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
That is good, because you were able to see that early
and then I bet that changed theway that you looked at people
and interacted with people,based on seeing them as this
beautiful creature that God puttogether for a purpose and when
you start thinking about that,that's huge if you see that
person as that compared to.
(24:48):
Is this my adversary?
Is this somebody I can competewith?
Is this somebody that I have towatch out for?
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Somebody I trust.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
But if you see them as God made them, then now I
want to get to know them.
I want to get to see who.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
what you intend, yes, yes, yes, what is their story?
What?
What's what's really cool aboutthem and what's what are they
struggling with?
And what you know, are therethings that I have that I can
share with them?
And there are things that theyhave that they can share with me
.
And when you think about thisstage of life, most of us start
(25:22):
off with that kind of wide-eyedview of other people.
Like I remember we had all kindof like different types of
people in grade school and Ididn't see them as, they were
just different people and thatwas.
It was cool.
But it's that junior high wherethat stuff starts to shed and
you start to learn about thesemarkers by which, in theory, we
(25:45):
can kind of predict people'sbehavior and outcomes and how
they're going to interact withus, and we start to get, you
know, kind of like protectiveand for a lot of good reasons.
But that got derailed by thatmoment for me and I was able to
hold on to and then grow thatstill like childlike wonder
(26:07):
around human beings in general.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
so so, yeah, you go to this college that you know
you're, you're trying to figureout who you are and, you know,
come up with an identity, Iguess, for who you're going to
be in the future.
Uh, you graduate and somehowyou end up here in Denver,
colorado, instead of inMinnesota.
What kind of transpired thatone had you.
(26:31):
You know, this is what I can do, this is what my life's going
to be, and then to move acrossthe way from family and
everybody else.
What went into all that?
How did that transpire?
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Yeah, fire, fire in the belly, you know.
So I I went to school fordrafting and estimating and, you
know, wanted to do all thefrank lord wright designy stuff.
You know, architecturalwonderment and, um, that degree
doesn't really facilitate that.
It's like a very utilitarian.
(27:05):
It's a fantastic degree becauseit was two year school.
That's all I have in terms ofmy formal training, but it's
more technical, it's more kindof brass tacks.
Learn how to draw, which I love, learn how to draw a home,
learn how to draw the details ofa home, all that stuff.
But I was not.
That wasn't like enough and Iwas like man, I gotta push past
(27:26):
it, I want to design stuff, andso I just kept pushing that and
kept pushing that um, probablyin too hard in some ways.
Retrospect, um, in terms of,like inner office dynamics and
all that.
Um, yeah, just like a real,just fire man like I.
I was talking to my sister acouple weeks ago but I feel like
I've never, I've never had anormal weekend like.
(27:49):
I've always done extra stuffvocationally on the weekends and
then even at night.
That just is kind of like.
So I've always worked like atleast a job and a half and so I
was pushing a lot of that designstuff and ended up, um, doing
some other kind of tech basedthings just when the internet
(28:10):
was starting to really comeonline and there was some, um
technical things that I wasdoing that got the attention of
some of the home office, uh,folks who were two or three
states over in Michigan and theyended up offering me the
(28:33):
position to do kind of aregional thing with some of that
tech stuff that I was doing atthe, the, the place that I was
working, and they offered me aposition in Denver.
And so I remember it was late, Ithink it was January 21st, 22nd
, 71 degrees in Denver.
We were down in the tech center, which is, for everybody who
doesn't know Denver, it's kindof one of the tech hubs,
(28:56):
southern metro of the city, andwe were at this, you know,
restaurant, lunch, whatever.
They were kind of walking methrough the city and I was there
for like a week just checkingit out Do you want to move here,
jason, kind of stuff, andhere's all the stuff and here's
what the city has to offer.
So we went to lunch and we werein the parking lot clear blue
(29:17):
sky, again January 21st, 71degrees, can see all the way to
the mountains blue cap mountainsor white cap mountains, and I
didn't know anywhere in thenation was 70 anything in
January, especially late January, from Minnesota, because I
think it was like negative 20something.
When I left I was like, oh man,I think I might be able to rock
(29:41):
it out here.
So, yeah, coming out and it wasgreat for a year.
And then the housing marketimploded and you know there's a
bunch of layoffs and a bunch of,you know, destabilizing things.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
But that's what got me out to Denver when you, when
I want to kind of you know,pivot a little bit to and then I
want to jump into faith becauseyou know I kind of started the
show talking about you know ourtrip to Alabama and the thought
process of you, know you're partof these groups.
You're part of you know, nowyou're integrated into our
(30:15):
society.
You're Denver, you'reColoradoan or whatever we call
ourselves.
I was born here and don't evenknow what we call ourselves.
Everybody's like.
Are you native?
Are you native?
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Yeah, yeah, I was born here, I was like oh.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Okay, but then we go back into the South because we
heard about the South.
Maybe kind of just talk alittle bit about your
expectations before you went andthen some of the things you may
have learned that are sodifferent from a Minnesota, or
so different from a Colorado oranywhere else that you just go.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Oh, my God.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Maybe just kind of give us just a quick overview.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
Yeah, yeah, that trip was.
That trip was a gut punch and ahug kind of at the same time,
yeah, and so Scott, who's theexecutive director of Iztikar,
you guys put that trip together.
(31:18):
I was telling him leading up toit, I mean he literally had.
He asked me like threedifferent times so, jason, are
you going to make it out therewith?
I was like, ah, you know, man,I was dragging my feet, man,
because I was like my sister andI had another conversation
about this a couple years ago.
(31:38):
But we were like man, I can'twatch another one of those 12
Years a Slave movies or any ofthat civil rights, any of that
stuff.
Man, I'm like I just myemotional.
I think this hit after this ispost-Floyd.
I was just like man, I'm tryingto do and then try to keep my
(32:07):
spiritual stuff in some form oforder, and then you turn on the
news.
I'm trying not to be unpluggedfrom that.
So I've watched the news, youknow, little bits and pieces
throughout the week and all ofits fantastic stuff happening
there.
And so, man, I was like I, Ialready knew what the trip was
(32:31):
going to be.
I was like, yeah, this is justgoing to be a bunch of like dive
back into yesteryear and awhole bunch of like heavy.
I was just like I don't man, Idon't, I don't have it, I don't
have the reservoir.
So, um, I'm glad that scottdidn't listen and um, yeah, so
(32:59):
the going in.
I was like going in, I was likeall right, well, let's, let's,
let's do it, because I'm notlike, if you go on the spectrum
of like politically sociallyactive would be like you know,
uh, super, yeah, I mean I hateto throw out the term militant
(33:21):
just willy-nilly, but let's justsay that's a 10.
Then you got zero, which islike I don't know what the
heck's going on.
Everything's great.
I'm probably more like in afour to five range where I'm
like it's hard to get me out onsome capital steps.
I'm not like, it's just my.
(33:43):
There's different ways that I'mtrying to move the needle for
my family, for the folks from myvillage, culturally speaking,
for the folks from my um,spiritual family, uh, for, uh,
(34:06):
people in general, artists andstuff.
There's different groups that I, you know, um, advocate for,
and so, yeah, I'm just not like.
I was like man, I don't knowwhere my head is going to be
going in and where it's going tobe coming out and so I'm trying
(34:27):
to.
I'm trying to do stuff for justto hold myself together through
all of this and I got a bunchof mentees and stuff that I want
to be in a good spot for them,and then my family anyway.
So going in, I was like thatwas where I was at.
So going in I was like that waswhere I was at.
The trip itself was amazing andsuper informative and, I think,
(34:50):
big picture and then coming out,the relationships, you guys
brought a huge contingent ofbrothers that were very.
It was just, it was really goodthat you guys were there.
I'll just say that you knowwhat I mean me personally,
that's just that's.
You know um, just to be able toto again coming from my
(35:16):
experience where I'm used tobeing the only one, only black,
and that's been day one, that'scolorado, that's minneapolis,
that's right.
So just to not be that throughgoing, you know, learning about
all that hard stuff was reallyhelpful and it and it was a lot
of the stuff that I had heardabout, read about, saw movies
(35:40):
about um, but it was so muchmore real when you're there on
the grounds and you're walkingthrough the cities that still
just architecturally and inother ways still look and feel
similar to some of that, some ofthose times, and so yeah, that
(36:05):
was yeah, it was transformativeand it was hard and you know I I
used to always wonder why mydad moved to Minnesota.
Because he's from the South andwe got a bunch of family to
Minnesota because he's from theSouth and we got a bunch of
(36:27):
family Memphis and Arkansas andfull of folk out in Texas and
whatnot.
So our crew is down there.
That's like that's where the.
You know, I used to visit, ourfamily used to visit down there,
like once every year or two,growing up so.
But I was always like man, likewhen we would go down there, we
would go to the mall and we goout where you see all these
(36:49):
black people, you just be likeyo man, they.
And then why did dad move allthe way to Minnesota?
Like and this is the trip whereI was like I get it, I'm not
sure if that's why he moved, wasbecause of all that, but for
(37:09):
the first time I felt like Iwould have made that same call
and I'm not sure I don't knowwhat that says, but I get it,
man.
So I got a lot of still downthere and they're still
representing and rocking it outand doing the thing.
But yeah, it was just reallycool.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Well, what I'm going to ask you is because I want to
kind of talk a little bit aboutwhat does it mean to be a black
man in America in 2025,?
but somehow without thatexperience we might have had a
totally different answer before.
That you know.
And then, without being able tokind of give some context to
(37:52):
maybe some of the thoughtprocess, I know for me it has
changed how I look at otherfolks of color, other black men,
and think about what they mayhave gone through, because it
wasn't my experience.
I went to the white high schoolthat had 30 black folks out of
3 000.
I had my own struggles and myown people calling me names and
(38:13):
all that kind of stuff, but notat the extent where I don't know
if I ever believed it was likein death.
You know they might have, youknow they might have called end,
might have done stuff like that.
But then I think I'll tell thosefolks that I could have crossed
the line or I could havecrossed the street and my life
would have ended, or you know,in those circumstances or just
(38:36):
the amount of hate or stuff thatwas there.
I don't know if I felt thatgrowing up.
And then I think how does thattranslate now to where I'm at
now and what I've been able todo and the education that I've
(38:57):
been able to get, and how hasthat affected me?
And I'm now talking to some ofthe folks who were in these
situations whether it's theSouth or whether a small real
poor community in new york orsomething changes my perspective
a little bit and so yeah, andhow do you balance, like, the
information overload of it allwith the?
Speaker 1 (39:17):
okay, now I'm uh doing whatever, the next call,
the next meeting, whatever, witha bunch of people that had
nothing to do with that.
But there's like this tensionbetween, um, the things that the
, the, the ripple effects of allof that stuff that still show
(39:40):
up today and you're heightenedin your awareness of it and
other people may not be other,maybe people may not even
acknowledge it, because it kindof feeds into the next part that
I want to talk to you about itwith is because I see, when my
faith now kicks in and my youknow the circle where I'm at I
(40:02):
see the need more at.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
I see the need more of the need for grace, I see
more of the need for theunderstanding, I see more of the
need for patience than I havebefore.
I don't see the, especiallywith folks now who have had
ancestors or had people thatcame before them that taught
them things you know about us orabout different people or about
(40:27):
different cultures, through notunderstanding right, just
because they were just theirfather told them and their
father told them.
And that's how they have to act, but never have to actually
face it themselves.
You know, I think of the schoolthat you went to, where it was
the first time many of them wereinteracting, school that you
went to where it was the firsttime many of them were
(40:48):
interacting.
Then I think of our, our tourguide, tour guide's dad, who
said I grew up 20 miles fromhere and didn't see any black
folks, you know, for I don'tknow how many years, and the
city's 85 percent black.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
so how did that?
Speaker 2 (41:01):
segregated for them yeah, so the grace that I think
comes from.
That helps me now with myinteraction in my relationships
and when I when I whether I'mtalking to somebody who's white,
who just hasn't had anyexposure, or I'm talking to a
black man who's super angrybecause of yep, some of it is-
(41:22):
real and how he was treated.
And you know I think about youknow now I listen to my mom and
my dad tell me stories ofdrinking out of colored drinking
fountains and you know my unclegetting beaten just because he
was drove around off the wrongyou know side of the county or
something like that.
You don't want to go.
Okay, none of that should havehappened, none of that.
(41:44):
But at the same time, the folksthat are alive now aren't the
ones who did it.
We just have to make sure theydon't perpetuate it.
Right, and so that thoughtprocess then gets to how do I
now help understanding?
How do I help them to feel, ornot even feel?
But when they ask questions, Idon't get mad at them for asking
(42:06):
the questions because I truly,like I do not know.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
Yeah, well, you didn't grow in my house yeah,
and I, man, I'd love to do adive on uh, which you just
mentioned in terms of the feelpart, what I alluded to earlier.
There there's a conversation, alegitimate one, in the black
community Well, I think it's ina number of communities, but
(42:29):
it's kind of like, at what pointdo I have to stop worrying
about how people feel?
And so what I was alluding toearlier in terms of the soft
skills, do you grow up?
Learning?
Is you learn how to make otherpeople at least I did less on
edge because of whatever theirperceptions are around you as a
(42:55):
person and all the things youbring to the table as a person?
And in this case, some of thosethings are your cultural
background and so it.
There's a lot, of a lot of blackfolk that are kind of at a
point where they're like look,man, I don't care how
comfortable or uncomfortable,that's a you problem if blah,
(43:16):
blah, blah, you.
And I haven't settled on thatmyself.
I'm curious on, like from afaith standpoint, when I'm
thinking about Paul saying youknow, I became all things for
all people, so that and itwasn't so that they would be
(43:40):
nice to me, but so that theywould let me not misquote this
but mainly so that there wouldbe inroads, or at least a bridge
to be able to share the lifetransformative stuff of Jesus
with other people.
And so how do you balance thatall that olive branching with?
(44:03):
Sometimes you're not alwayslike poker, waving those olive
branches away and saying, look,you know, I'm not trying to see
things your way and I don't carewhatever you're talking about.
And yeah, like, how do you oneof the things that a pastor told
(44:26):
me.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
A really good friend pastor of mine told me that
hurting people hurt people.
Hurting people hurt people, andso I always, when somebody's
lashing out or saying somethings that are just off, first
I went are they hurting?
And if I can get to the bottom,why they're hurting, we may be
able to come together throughrelationship.
But then I get to people whoare just it doesn't matter what
(44:50):
race they are, or what colorthey're from.
they're just bad people, they'reevil people and I don't have a
lot of tolerance for that.
I don't have a lot of hey.
I've reached out, I've tried tohave a conversation and you are
just.
I'll just say you're juststupid.
And so then now thatconversation is no longer that
(45:13):
relationship, and maybe that'sjust on me where I'm not
reaching out anymore, I'm nottrying to resolve it, because
there's this genuine you don'tcare, You're going to do what
you're going to do.
And then you might even try totake advantage of me and my
kindness and my niceness, and sothat's where you know I can
(45:35):
reconcile with, with God orwhoever, and say look, you know
God, I reached out.
I know you said do a 70 times70, but I get like 70 times
divided by 7.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
I'm not there yet, right.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
Because it is hard, it is, it's that balance where
you go.
Okay, you know this is whereand I am aware of all the things
that happen, are you Like?
This weekend I was at the statetrack meeting and I was talking
to a history person that givesthe history and he's teaching
junior high kids.
You know he's going on and onabout our founders and that kind
(46:13):
of stuff.
And I said, well, you know,because we learned.
You know about what Dr Mack hadtold us about George Washington
.
And they say so what kind ofhistory do you give about George
Washington's teeth?
Oh, that they were wooden andhe had it.
And I said, well, no, he tookthem out of a slave's mouth and
he put them in his mouth.
And so are you even looking atother ways of sharing history?
(46:34):
Is history only from the personwho conquered?
Is that the only perspective weget to see?
Or we get to know?
And if that's the case, thenit's really hard to have.
You know, get into arelationship you know that you
and I can be in.
If all you can see is whatyou've been taught, all you can
(46:55):
see is what and that's not justtaught from school.
It's taught from your parents,it's taught from your community,
it's taught from wherever.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
I feel like there's like a curiosity quotient that
it's needed, where, if you'rethe expert coming and going on
everything, it's tough, man,it's tough.
And I think that slice can bemajority culture, that can be
minorities, that can bedifferent socioeconomic, that
(47:28):
can be spiritual conversationsof different groups, but it's
like I think the frustrationthat a lot of people myself have
included is like man, like we,we can't.
So in some ways I'm part ofgroups that are like that, like
(47:50):
if I feel like guys tend to belike that, I feel like
Christians in general in theWest tend to be like that, we're
just the experts, we show up,boom, we got it.
And unfortunately there's a lotof um, my majority, uh, experts
, culturally speaking, um, thatjust live that as well, and so
(48:14):
in certain ways I'm on the sidewhere I'm like, oh man, I need
to do a better job of not doingthat.
And other times I'm seeing itdone and I'm like, yeah, they
need to do a better job of notdoing that, because it's like
everyone knows this.
Mathematically, you talk about10 000 hours, and time is one of
the main objective.
(48:35):
Things that you can say relateto a person's ability to speak
into something with some sort ofauthority and some sort of
insight that should be listenedto, right, but, like my college
experience and a lot of ourexperience, you have people that
are experts on you, that arejust meeting their first black
(48:56):
person such an expert and soit's just, we got to show grace
but also remind folks that, likeman, you got to be a little
more curious about what's reallygoing on that might be outside
(49:20):
or might be in a blind spot ormight be outside of what you've
seen up to this point and I andthen, like I think as a believer
, as a Christian, we're majorityin this country and we care
ourselves sometime that way, andjust like plow through a whole
bunch of stuff and not askingany questions, oh yeah,
everybody gets understood, blah,blah, blah, blah, and and we're
(49:40):
not as curious as we should be,and and we're not as curious as
we should be, and so, man, Ijust feel like there's just a
lot of curiosity that is needed,that a little bit more
listening, a little more askingquestions like legit, like real,
like I really want to know, andjust sit back and letting it
wash over would do.
Speaker 2 (50:02):
I try to show up in conversations, and I heard this
from Myron saying it.
At one time he said everyconversation I'm in, I'm 100%
right.
I'm 100% right that there's a50% chance I don't know what I'm
talking about that I do.
I'm 100% right about that.
But if I'm right and we can gothrough this conversation and
(50:29):
show that I'm right and mybelief systems are well enough
that I'm going to defend them,then I want to continue to say
okay, this is why I'm right.
But on the other side of it, ifI'm wrong, I want to be able to
do this stuff to correct that.
And I think that's where welack is, we don't want to
correct it, because that meansthat we've been wrong for a long
time.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
We've been wrong for however long, and that goes back
to that beauty of like.
People are fascinating andamazing creatures and they are
made by God and they've beenbopping around earth, earth,
learning and accumulatingknowledge and wisdom.
Um, and it's so cool to learnfrom other people like you,
(51:11):
literally are getting, like, uh,old school nintendo, uh, those
books that you used to get toget the code, the cheat code,
where you get extra life, youget extra board, you get, I mean
, anytime you're interactingwith another person, that's an
opportunity to learn stuff youwould never in your own shoes be
(51:31):
able to learn.
And it's just so cool becauseGod is blessing everybody with
various different things thatthey can share with the
collective, various differentthings that they can share with
the collective.
And if we're just kind ofoutright saying, man, I already
know about your folk, there'snothing really here for you to
teach me, then, like that's,we're losing out.
Speaker 2 (51:52):
The older I get, the more that I know.
I don't know a whole lot, butthe fear comes in is when I
interact with you.
If I have this fear thatsomehow, if you learn or get
what I have, then it's going totake away from me having it.
And it's this whole thing oflack you spend so much time,
whether it's subconscious orconsciously going.
(52:15):
if I share with you, if I giveto you, and then all of a sudden
, now you get what I have, thatmeans you're taking it away from
me, instead of thinking that isa cloud of abundance and
there's a cloud of it and I lookat our division in our country
right now and I say, okay, we'vegot to take all this stuff away
, because these folks aregetting to the point where if
(52:37):
they get all of our jobs whichwill never happen but if they
take our culture, if they takeall of this from us, that means
we don't have it anymore, and soI'm nice to that person.
I try to understand that person.
I'm giving away something I maynever get back.
Speaker 1 (52:51):
Yeah, acknowledge that we are the wealthiest and
the most powerful nation,arguably that's ever been, and
possibly that is right now,while we also can still be
(53:14):
afraid that we don't have enough, and humans have figured out
how to survive and thrive on alot less than we have.
So there is a and, particularlyif you're you know, if you hold
that, while also being abeliever and follower of Jesus.
(53:36):
When Jesus is like don't worryabout the birds of the air, I
got them.
You know what I mean.
Don't worry about what clothesyou're gonna wear, I got you
like our.
It's like we are.
We're really believing inourselves more than we're
believing in god when we'rethinking there's not enough to
go around I want to.
Speaker 2 (53:57):
Just we'll just pick a little bit more right now,
just because I want to get toand this has been an amazing
opportunity we're going to dothis again at some point.
I want to kind of give theopportunity for you to kind of
really talk about you and whatyou're doing and what makes you
excited about life.
And you know I can see thatyou're very thoughtful and that
you're thinking about how do Iinteract in this world.
(54:19):
But what are some of the thingsthat you know?
We got to, you know college,and then you moved to Colorado
and you want to do architectureand you got this faith and like,
what is it that Jason's doingnow that it is makes life even
more exciting?
Speaker 1 (54:38):
Man, I'll tell you, I feel like I'm in the groove and
have been for several yearsright where God wants me to be.
I can't tell the future, but Ifeel like this is the.
So I've always been kind of acreative, artsy person which
goes into architecture stuff.
And so, coming out of thehousing market implosion, when I
(55:01):
moved out of architecture, Iended up getting into graph
design and started to launch myown company, jht Design Studios,
15 plus years ago, and reallyhave a love for creating
artistic things, a love forpeople, a love for God, a love
for connecting people in a waythat is honoring to God.
(55:26):
And so I ended up doing andstill am, with my main company,
jhd Design Studios, a lot ofbranding and identity websites
that are all about the story ofmy clients and their story is
(55:46):
really about the story of myclients and their story is
really about the story of theirclients.
And so helping them tell thatstory through design is what I
do, and that keeps the lights onstorytelling from a service
basement standpoint.
And then, several years ago, Ilaunched a storytelling company
as a product based, and so thatis scratching another artistic
itch of mine, and so we're stillramping that up and it's the
(56:10):
company is called group lore andwe use imaginative storytelling
to spark fun faithconversations for young people,
specifically like middle gradeage students and a little bit
older, and so at that age wherethey're starting to really form
(56:32):
a lot of their big pictureidentity around some of the
questions that they're askingand like getting answers,
gathering answers it's thatcoming of age stuff, joseph
campbell, all of that.
So, and I love it, man, becausewhat we're trying to do is
facilitate conversation, which Ithink is something that
(56:55):
universally could beacknowledged as a need and maybe
a muscle that's kind ofatrophied in a lot of ways in
society.
And I'll say I'll raise my handas a Christian, like, I think
we do conversation poorly and Ithink we've in the last probably
five or 10 years cliff fault,we were already bad at it, but I
(57:20):
think we've.
I mean, it's just, and so whatwe're trying to do is bring
healthy conversation back andspecifically around faith
exploration, and so we're usingthese fun science fiction
stories to do that and it's just, it's like all the stuff that
(57:42):
God has made me to do, stuffthat I have some aptitude for,
but stuff that I'm just reallypassionate about as well, and
all mixed together and we'redoing some really fun stuff.
Speaker 2 (57:54):
You're making an impact in a way that a lot of
other people aren't, wheneverybody's you know one in one
direction.
You're finding ways to get intoa relationship.
You're finding ways to helppeople.
I think we start gravitatingtowards all this technology,
whether it's AI now or whateverit is, and you're utilizing the
(58:15):
technology to bring us backtogether.
Speaker 1 (58:21):
Yeah, we want to have .
I mean haven't dived dove intothe.
We've talked some some ai stuff.
I think you're further down theuh, the approval train that I
am on that I I have some verystrong views on ai from a
cautionary tale standpoint.
But in terms of technology ingeneral, yeah, we're, we're
(58:43):
embracing it because that'swhere young people are and we're
taking the approach where whatdid Jesus do when he and his
disciples were doing their thingFirst century?
They were going to where peoplewere, not where they wanted them
to be, and then they wereforming relationships and having
conversations, conversationsand asking questions and eating
(59:05):
and hanging out and sharing someinsights on occasion.
And that's what we're trying todo.
So we want to use thetechnology because that's where
young people are, and then whatwe're doing is taking this story
, that's leveraging thattechnology and then bouncing
them back off of the deviceswhich all of us are addicted to
(59:27):
and they're no different intoreal relationships.
And so at the end of each ofthese episodes, these stories
that group lore creates, youhave kind of like a series of
trivia questions where you'reable to actually ask story-based
questions about faith and aboutlife and about philosophy and
(59:49):
about your own personal storyjust off of the story you just
read, and so this is again in ascience fiction and it's fun,
adventure stuff.
But we're able to bounce off ofthat back into the who are the
people in your life, and so wewant to facilitate small group
conversations and family tableconversations and mentor mentee
conversations off of somethingthat's fun and adventure, uh,
(01:00:13):
venturing, you know, uh, butthen allow real stuff to happen
off of that in real life, offthe device.
Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
So that's, that's how so many really incredible
things that we've just been ableto, that's how we're doing so
many really incredible thingsthat we've just been able to
dive into and we're kind of attime.
What didn't we talk about thatyou want to make sure that you
shared with the folks that aregoing to watch this episode.
My goal, or my dream, would bethat you and I get to have some
more conversations where wereally get to get into the
(01:00:41):
philosophical portions of it andwhy things happen, how we can
help others and, uh, at somepoint, I believe you could be an
incredible uh, you know podcasthost where you're bringing
people in and having theseconversations.
Not that that's one more thingto add to your plate, but you,
yeah, you turn this conversation.
Speaker 1 (01:01:01):
Oh good, you turned this conversation.
It's on.
Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
Because you're asking me questions.
It's about that attention, thatyou got that heart for
knowledge and curiosity.
So this conversation, for thoseof you who are watching, is far
from being over, and it's farfrom being over where you get to
be a part of it.
But at the same time, what didwe not talk about that you want
to make sure During this episode?
(01:01:23):
Is there a way to find?
out about group lore.
Is there a way to you know,find out other stuff you're
doing, because I want you tomake sure that yeah, people do
want to they can.
Speaker 1 (01:01:32):
They can communicate with you yeah, I would love for,
if, if, if anyone out therelistening that has a young
person in their life again, likemiddle school or even early
high school or maybe even alittle older, but basically are
into fiction and imaginativestorytelling and wants to have a
(01:01:56):
faith conversation and finds itreally hard and really
difficult difficult, given allof the complexity that we're all
juggling.
I would love for them to dropby grouplorecom and take a look
at what we're doing over there,because we're making this for
parents, mentors, christianeducators and just young people
(01:02:17):
and young people at heart ingeneral that want to explore
some of the deepest questionsthat we have in life about what
is going on in all of thisbrokenness in our world and is
there hope through all of that?
But also really love adventureand story and cool sci-fi, uh,
(01:02:42):
uh, epic stuff.
So, yeah, that's what we'retrying to do over there and we'd
love to check it out.
Speaker 2 (01:02:49):
Um you know the website to go to.
Please check it out.
I just this has been an amazingconversation.
I can't wait to have more withyou offline and online.
Uh, and begin to unpack our,our purposes here why we're here
and why God put us on thisplanet.
I think this is just such a goodspot for us to be able just to
(01:03:09):
have these conversations andtalk, because the more of these
conversations that can be had,the more of these conversations
that we can begin to talk aboutrelationship and why God put us
here, the better we are as asociety.
And so I love the example thatyou gave.
I love the things that you'redoing for the community and I
(01:03:30):
just can't wait to talk to youagain.
So, for those of you who havenot subscribed to this yet, go
ahead and subscribe.
Hit the notification button,hit those Some really good folks
that we get to talk to on aweekly basis that we're putting
out a couple times a week.
We're putting out theseepisodes that people can be a
part of and interact.
So, any closing thoughts, I'llgive you the last word and then
(01:03:52):
we'll be out for this episode.
Speaker 1 (01:03:56):
No man Blessings, God's not.
He's not surprised by any stuffgoing on.
So move forward, plow forward,all right.
So move forward, plow forward,all right.
Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
So don't forget to God's greatest gift he loves you
to allow him to, and we can'twait to talk to you on the next
one.
Have a great, wonderful day.
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