May 27, 2025 • 58 mins
The pivotal moment came when Joshua Mays stood alone beneath the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma, Alabama. Running his fingers along the weathered structure where blood was once spilled for civil rights, he broke down crying. "I began to question what have I put my life on line for?" he recalls, confronting the stark contrast between his life and those who marched across that bridge decades before.
Josh never expected this soul-searching journey when his father suggested he join a civil rights tour through Alabama. Growing up in Colorado with limited exposure to Southern history, Josh thought he'd simply visit some museums with like-minded people. Instead, he found himself standing at invisible boundaries where crossing a street would have meant violence for a Black person sixty years ago, witnessing neighborhoods still visibly segregated, and most devastatingly, discovering his own family's tragic connection to America's darkest chapter.
At the Legacy Museum, Josh was directed to a display containing a jar of soil from where his ancestors, Edward and Dick Mays, were lynched in 1901. They had been falsely accused, then shot, hung, and mutilated beyond recognition. "That was the most shattering thing for me, knowing that my bloodline, specifically, was a part of slavery," Josh explains. This personal connection transformed abstract history into visceral reality, helping him understand his grandparents' warnings about interacting with white people that had previously seemed excessive.
Since returning to Denver, Josh has channeled this profound experience into creating educational spaces for youth using interactive technology. His trauma therapy background, coupled with patience learned from raising his nonverbal autistic son, uniquely positions him to translate difficult history to young people. "I think getting people out there to see it and experience that... it was an amazing somber feeling. It was a feeling that I needed to have."
Want to learn more about Josh's work with youth or join a future civil rights tour? Follow him on Instagram at good_knight87 and connect with Journey to Freedom to experience history's transformative power for yourself.
Visit www.brianearnold.com to join a life-changing journey! Experience a powerful civil rights tour through Alabama with trauma therapy specialist Joshua Mayes.
Feel the emotional impact of Birmingham, Selma, and the Legacy Museum. See how history reshapes identity and inspires action.
Gain insights into courage, heritage, and community impact. Don’t miss the sneak peek: Joshua’s bold plan to educate youth with VR and media rooms!
The pivotal moment came when Joshua Mays stood alone beneath the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma, Alabama. Running his fingers along the weathered structure where blood was once spilled for civil rights, he broke down crying. "I began to question what have I put my life on line for?" he recalls, confronting the stark contrast between his life and those who marched across that bridge decades before.
Josh never expected this soul-searching journey when his father suggested he join a civil rights tour through Alabama. Growing up in Colorado with limited exposure to Southern history, Josh thought he'd simply visit some museums with like-minded people. Instead, he found himself standing at invisible boundaries where crossing a street would have meant violence for a Black person sixty years ago, witnessing neighborhoods still visibly segregated, and most devastatingly, discovering his own family's tragic connection to America's darkest chapter.
At the Legacy Museum, Josh was directed to a display containing a jar of soi
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I do have a son, joshua Jr, who's autistic,
nonverbal, and with him ittaught me the utmost patience.
As I work with kids in theschools, I find it very easy
just because they can speak.
When I come home and talk to myson and he can't speak
everything, now he knows signlanguage and has about 300 words
, but he's 13, but up until 10,no words.
And so learning his emotions,learning how to see him for who
(00:24):
he is and being preemptive withyou know if he's going to, if
he's going to have a episodewhere he's breaking out and
yelling, you know I have to be,be there and understand that
it's on the way.
And it really transferred intomy job to where now I can see
kids.
They don't have to say anything.
I can tell something's wrong, Ican tell something's good,
something's right.
My son has been a big part inhow I operate.
(00:44):
Ed is my best friend.
Joshua Jr is my best friendbecause he keeps me humble.
He's the most loving human I'veever seen.
He doesn't judge, you know,whether I'm having a bad day or
a good day.
He comes up and he just hugs meand you know he wants love and
he loves and it's unconditional.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
And to me he is the epitome of what love should look
like.
Welcome, welcome, welcome andwelcome to another edition of
the Journey to Freedom podcast.
I'm Dr B, I'm your host and weare going to go through a series
over the next few weeks of.
I believe I've talked to youknow, during several of my
guests and several of myepisodes the fact that we were
going to take a group of men, agroup of black men, to Alabama
(01:40):
on a civil rights tour to kindof find out, you know so not not
necessarily everybody stuck,but to really kind of understand
the culture, understand wherewe came from.
I know I grew up here in Denver, colorado.
I moved to California andstayed there for 25 years but
had hardly any exposure to theSouth.
I know that, like when I was akid, I remember we went to
(02:02):
Lexington for a family reunion,but I had no recollection or
understanding of anything inAlabama, anything in Louisiana.
In fact, my first trip toLouisiana was about six months
ago.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
So I had no exposure there.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
I still have never been to Mississippi.
I've been to Jacksonville,florida, a few times, and you
know.
But when I think of the South,you know I've been to Virginia
to go to DC but haven't been to.
You know, I think we did acouple of track meets in
Arkansas but I had no realexposure to the South or what
that meant, other than what Iread in history books.
(02:41):
I read in what I read in.
You know I had my grandma.
My grandma grew up on a Choctawreservation in Oklahoma and so
you know I had more exposure tothe Native American side of my
culture than I did the AfricanAmerican side.
I know on my dad's side, mygrandma, our folks, are from
Kentucky and we can trace themback to slaves and and you know
(03:06):
what, what happened and wentthrough there I you know, I
think I have my, you know, josh,I think I have my dad on here
and he kind of talked about whenhe had to drink out of he's
from Missouri and had to drinkout of colored restrooms.
I had a conversation with mymom just the other day and she
talked about like my uncle'sgetting beat up in California
and the issues that they had andthe clan guys showing up to my
(03:26):
mom and my dad about that, butstill no real connection, uh, to
to what that is other than andyou're way younger than me, but
there was a, you know, in the70s, when I was a kid, uh, a, um
, a mini series called rootsthat came.
You may have seen it.
Since then, that was, oh mygosh.
All this stuff happened, butuntil I went to Alabama and
(03:49):
actually experienced some of thethings that I had talked about,
I didn't really trulyunderstand it.
And so the series that we'll begoing through is we were able
to go on that trip.
We went on that trip a fewmonths ago, about 100 days ago,
and because I didn't want tostart the series immediately and
come back, because I wanted tofind out, as a result, what
people are doing now, and soexcited to talk to Josh he went
(04:12):
with us on the trip.
But before we jump into the tripand what was learned and what
was, you know, obtained, I'dreally love to kind of focus, to
be able to get to know you alittle bit.
Maybe you can tell your story,tell where you grew up, how you
grew up, all those wonderfulthings that became the man you
are and then we'll jump into thetrip and then kind of talk
(04:34):
about identity and talk aboutother people going and would it
be great for another group to go.
So I'm going to give you thefloor.
You can.
You can start it the day youwere born and you can start
somewhere.
I'm going to give you access.
You tell your story how youthink your story should be told.
So the floor is yours.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Yeah, I mean.
So.
I'm 37 years old now.
I'll be 38 here in December.
I'm born and raised in Colorado.
I grew up in Aurora, one of therare families that still had
mom and dad in the house.
A lot of families when I wasgrowing up didn't have mom,
didn't have dad in the house,but I did, and my parents were
pastors.
So I grew up knowing God.
(05:10):
I grew up knowing faith,knowing love and church all day
on Sunday, church all day onWednesday, thursday and then
rehearsals on Saturday.
So I grew up in the church andone of the things I got to learn
that really, really set in meis just love for people.
And I grew up in the church andone of the things I got to
learn that really, really set inme is just love for people.
And I grew up watching myfather and my mother just love
the saints and up in late nights, two in the morning, praying
(05:33):
with them going to visit youknow sister, so-and-so brother,
so-and-so late at night, earlyin the morning, just to see if
they're OK, just to check onthem showing up at the hospital.
So I really learned how to lovepeople at a very, very young
age.
I grew up with a lot of sisters,so we had, you know, four women
in the household and my father,and so I got to learn a woman's
(05:56):
touch and I got to learn how tobe soft.
But with my father I alsolearned how to be tough, and so
I had a good mix.
Growing up.
I went to Gateway High School,played football there, which
taught me a lot of things.
Football and sports taught me alot of things.
But, most importantly, growingup with my sisters, I learned
(06:17):
how to respect women, and I'velearned that that is a huge
thing for me, just respectingwomen.
I got to hear the conversationswith my sisters when they were
talking to boys on the phone,but, more importantly, the
conversations they had with eachother when they got off the
phone, which really gave meinsight to women and how they
operate.
And then watching my dad be aman's man.
You know he was.
He was a man's man.
(06:38):
He fixed the car, he catered tomy mother, catered to my
sisters.
You know he was always firstone up, always in the gym,
always making sure that I wasdoing what I was supposed to do.
And I learned accountabilityfrom him at a very young age and
I understood the importance ofit and what not having
accountability looked likethrough some of my family
members.
It's crazy growing up because Ihad family that was in the
(07:03):
church and then I also hadfamily that was addicted to
drugs.
And seeing both sides of thoseyou know Sunday morning in
church and then after seeingfamily come over to the house,
some of them strung out, itreally really gave me insight to
how this world operates.
It's a tough world.
It made me want to help peopleand so I grew up wanting to be a
(07:26):
psychologist.
It turns out I ended up being atrauma therapy specialist,
which I do love because I workwith young people, and just
growing up in the church hasreally made me want to give back
to the community.
So I had a good childhood, Iloved it and I feel like it
really helps me cater to what Ido now, which is give back to
(07:48):
the community.
My trials and tribulations havebeen, you know, car accidents
and you know, breaking my legsand breaking my arms and having
to fight back from that.
But my parents really kept mein a safe area.
I wasn't hip to drug dealing.
I wasn't hip to anything likethat because my dad wouldn't
(08:11):
allow me to be around it.
It wasn't until I got olderwhere I got to experience the
world for what it was.
My parents really shielded mefrom it and while it was good in
some, it was bad in some waysas well.
Some things I had to learn onthe curve because I hadn't
experienced it, and other thingsI knew well.
You know how to help, how totreat, how to love through it.
(08:31):
And yeah, that's really me,just a Christ-driven young man.
You know I try to work with kids.
I love working with kids.
I do have a son, joshua Jr,who's autistic, nonverbal, and
with him it taught me the utmostpatience.
(08:52):
As I work with kids in theschools, I find it very easy
just because they can speak.
When I come home and talk to myson and he can't speak
everything now he knows signlanguage and has about 300 words
, but he's 13.
But up until 10, no words,words.
But you know he's 13, but upuntil 10, no words.
And so learning his emotions,learning how to see him for who
he is and being preemptive withyou know, if he's going to, if
he's going to have a episodewhere he's breaking out, um and
(09:16):
yelling, you know I have to bebe there and understand that
it's on the way.
Um, and it really transferredinto my job to where now I can
see kids.
They don't have to say anything.
I can tell something's wrong, Ican tell something's good,
something's right, and so, yeah,my son has been a big part in
how I operate.
That is my best friend.
Joshua Jr is my best friendbecause he keeps me humble.
(09:37):
He's the most loving human I'veever seen.
He doesn't judge, you know,whether I'm having a bad day or
a good day.
He comes up and he just hugs meand you know he wants love and
he loves and it's unconditionaland, uh, to me he is the epitome
of what love should look like.
It doesn't matter what happens.
My son always loves me.
So, um, that's my driving forcenow is just the love for my son
(09:59):
.
I love all my children, mydaughters as well, but my son,
especially with his condition, Ilove him, yeah.
So, yeah, that's me, that's me.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Oh my gosh.
Well, thank you for sharingthat.
I mean kind of cool to hearthat you were able to see a
couple of the sides of what lifecould be like and then try, you
know, okay, this is the lifethat I'm going to choose, this
is what I'm going to do, as faras you know my belief and love
of helping people, and I thinkthat's not only to be
commendable but just really neatto just see what an influence
(10:31):
really looks like.
You know, because there's somany people that we interview
and they talk and they kind ofsay, hey, this was the trauma of
my childhood and all the thingsthat went on and it sounds like
there's parts of it where thatcould have been traumatic.
There's other parts of it.
They were just beautiful andfantastic.
So thank you for sharing One ofthe things that I think that
(10:53):
you would love to kind ofexplore now as we, as we go the
trip.
And so you know, originally,when we were planning out the
trip and you know I have apretty good relationship with
your dad and we were going tohave your dad go on the trip and
he had said, well, you knowwhat, you know he's been to the
South and he's experienced a lotof the things there, but he
(11:14):
didn't think that you had a lotof exposure and you guys might
even have relatives and thatkind of stuff that he wanted you
to learn about, and so maybeyou can just even take us to
that conversation that hemight've had with you.
That was him saying you knowwhat, I have this opportunity
for you to go on this trip.
Do you want to go?
And then maybe what was thatlike?
(11:34):
And maybe your thought processas you were thinking through
what it might be like.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Yeah.
So he called me and I didn'tanswer and I called him back and
he said hey, son, I got aquestion for you and I said
what's up?
And he said you know you wantto go on a trip.
And so I'm thinking going on atrip with him.
I'm like, yeah, sure.
And he says it's to Alabama.
And I think in my head, yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
I'm like Alabama dad.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
And he says well, there's, there's this group,
there's these people I know andI can't actually make it.
And, as you said, I'veexperienced the South and I know
that you haven't, son and he'sbeen everywhere Johannesburg,
africa.
He's been all over the worldtraveling and he knows that I
have not I've traveled America,but I have not been to the South
.
And so he asked if I wanted togo and I said yeah, and he said
(12:27):
well, there's a guy named Brianand I know him well and you'll
be going with him.
So I'm going to just exchangeyour information with you.
You'll get an email.
And he didn't tell me muchabout it at first, and so it was
over the phone.
And then that following Sunday,I came to him after I got the
email from you guys, and I said,hey, dad, this seems pretty
interesting.
And then he sat me down andshowed me Edward and Dick and
(12:51):
said, hey, I want you to lookfor these, these guys, him.
And I said, okay, well, youknow what's what's going on.
And he says I just want you tolook for him.
And he didn't.
He didn't really explain why orwhat.
He really wanted me to figureit out for myself.
(13:12):
And I do appreciate that,because when I got there, what I
experienced was crazy.
But back to the conversation.
He said you know, go ahead andexperience it.
I want you to go and I want youto come back and I just want
you to share with the men of thechurch what you experienced.
And yeah, so I said, ok, cool.
So I was thinking, you know, Iwas going just to a history
museum and to hang out with someguys that believed, that were
(13:35):
faith driven, and I thought thatwas that I didn't realize there
was going to be.
All that was the experience.
So the experience itself wasvery overwhelming.
I experienced every singleemotion, certain emotions that I
haven't felt that deep of ananger or that deep of a sorrow
or that deep of a wow, this iswhere I'm from, this is how it
(14:00):
started, this is okay.
Now I get you know, going fromthe, the shooting and the
lynching of my family, I get howthey traveled up through
Louisiana, right, and how theycame all the way across West,
through Missouri and throughKansas and landed in Colorado,
right.
And so I was able to to traceit back just by simply going on
(14:22):
this experience and and therewas just so much that that that
happened in that trip.
That was just utterly amazing,yeah okay, good.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
So, and that's grabbing, because so you kind of
don't know what it is.
Uh, now you, you you're in theairport there's, there's
strangers that are yeah amongstus.
There's a group, you know,there's a group, uh, you find us
, uh, you know, and then so wefly.
We kind of get to know eachother a little bit.
And I know in the airport, whenwe get to Shuttleworth Airport
(14:52):
in Birmingham, that there isthis vending machine that is a
barbecue machine.
Maybe just kind of talk aboutwhat we are.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Well, see, and I'm from Colorado, right?
So vending machines here arejust popping candy, you know,
maybe some chips.
We get down there and it's anactual vending machine for
barbecue and it cooks thebarbecue Like we were all
standing around it trying tolook in the back of it to see if
there was a kitchen behind that.
They cook it and serve itthrough, or how it was going.
But it was the most odd thingand one of the guys that went
(15:26):
with us they tried it.
I think they liked it.
It didn't look like thepictures.
I'll tell you that it didn'tlook.
It did not look like thepictures.
The pictures on the side theylooked like some real good
cuisine, but as it came out itlooked like, you know, like a
McRib from McDonald's.
One of the old school McRibs iswhat it looked like.
But it was a genius idea.
I got to give it to them.
It was a genius idea.
(15:47):
And as we looked at it on theInternet, it looked like they
had a couple of locations.
So it looks like they're doingpretty well.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Yeah, yeah, I think we found like 700 vending
machines all around.
Yeah, they're there and I was.
The fact that you could meet ina machine that's at an airport
Right, it was machine that's atan airport, right, I was.
It was just hilarious.
So, you know, we move in andwe're starting to, you know,
combine the group.
You know the group have, uh, 19folks of color and then it had,
uh, you know, then we have, youknow, eight or nine.
(16:13):
Uh, you know folks that are,you know, white folks that are
part of of the experience and westart out that night and I
don't know how much you rememberabout the night we're talking
about story and talking about,you know, one of our podcast
hosts here.
You know, one of my podcastfolks that I did an episode on,
you know, kind of led a sessionto try to get to know each other
(16:37):
.
Did you begin to feeluncomfortable or feel, you know,
maybe kind of talk about whatyour thought process was there?
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Yeah, yeah, you're talking about with Jeff.
Yeah, yeah, with Jeff.
Yes, yes, I thought it was agood icebreaker.
Being the fact that my dad wassupposed to go and my dad has
all these credentials, I feltlesser than as I walked into the
door.
You know, as I look at it, it'sDr Brian, it's not Dr Joshua,
(17:06):
right, and there's all theseother, all these people with
these positions, and I'm not myfather, and so it was awkward
until I got into the room and wehad that icebreaker and we went
around and we tried to do astory and I realized that these
are just people, just like I am.
We're all just people and weall have a mission, we all.
(17:27):
So for me, it really made mefeel at home, I enjoyed it and
it kind of took the edge off forme and I think I had an edge
all the way up until we got intothe conference room and as we
were starting because I wasn'texpecting this type of
experience you know, I'm likeconference classes, what I
thought I was going to a museumand so, yeah, I liked it and it
(17:50):
also, let me know how you haveto work together in order to
tell the complete story, right?
You know we only had a part ofthe story for each person and,
as the story's coming around,before it gets to you, you don't
know how it's going to turn.
It's literally one personbefore you and then you have to
go, and it made us be quick onour feet.
(18:12):
It made us have to trust theperson before and it made us
have to support the person after, knowing, hey, I can't say
something that they can't comeafter and say, and I'm hoping
that the person before me sayssomething that I can come off of
and not be embarrassed.
So, yeah, it was a goodicebreaker and it kind of it
showed all of us to be humans.
I liked it Cool.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
So Jeff Campbell is a person who he runs a a local
spot here in Denver called theEmancipation Theater and where
he talks about story and how totake folks that, whether they've
been marginalized or they'vebeen traumatized or they've had
great lives, and help us tounderstand our story and how it
(18:56):
fits into the greater about.
And so he brought us togetherand allowed us to begin to talk
through some issues that weusually don't talk about, or if
we do talk about them, we talkabout them in the circles in
which we are most comfortable in.
You know, if we're going to talkabout, you know, you know
discrimination, and usually whenyou have those conversations at
(19:18):
least the ones I've been partof if we have several black men
or black women and we kind oftalk about how we've been
discriminated against, but wedon't add in, you know, our
white counterparts and say, well, how did your family deal with
this?
What did you learn while youwere growing up?
And so we kind of set the tonefor the trip as a part of that
(19:43):
process of saying, ok, we needto get together if we're going
to go through this experiencetogether and learn from each
other.
And so we go through that thatevening, you know, we start
creating relationships with the28 people that are there, and
then the next day we decidewe're going to go on a tour, and
(20:04):
so I don't know if you hadheard about Birmingham before.
This tour is going to be yourfirst exposure to the South and
Birmingham.
Kind of talk about maybe justsome of the stops we made or the
things that you learned as wewent on this tour in Birmingham.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
Yeah, so I've never I had never been to Alabama
period or anywhere near thatarea.
And the experience there, Ithink, seeing the statues of the
dogs on the leashes and as theywere biting at the young women,
seeing some of the buildingsactually getting to touch some
of the gravel that they had, andthen just seeing the buildings
(20:43):
with the bombs and the smoke,the tar of the smoke that's
still against the building, andseeing it in the movie, you know
, or hearing about it in history, is one thing, but being at
ground zero, it brought chillsto me.
Um, going around and and justwalking as we walked and we said
(21:05):
, hey, this is the separationline.
If you were black back then youcouldn't cross this line into
this park.
You couldn't, you couldn't gothat way.
And this is the street, andstanding there knowing that, hey
, if this was 50 years ago, aswe walked across to the white
side, I could go to jail, Icould have dogs sick on me,
something could happen to me forcrossing this street.
(21:25):
And so immediately my mind wentto I'm completely ungrateful
for what I've been giving as aBlack man in today's age and I
began to appreciate what myelders had went through.
I didn't agree and I thought Idid.
I really did think genuinelythat I appreciated what grandma,
(21:47):
grandpa, great uncles, aunties,that what they had went through
.
But I didn't because I, I justI didn't understand that just
simply crossing the street andonce you're there and you're on
the corner, you just it's yeah,it's bone chilling, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
And then, you know, as we go through, we go to, like
, the 16th Street Mall, where weknow Dr Martin Luther King
spoke at.
We go to where houses werebeing bombed just because they
were trying to create equalrights and we were trying to.
You know, you go through parksand you know, like I think they
talked about a theater wherethere was a rope down the middle
(22:27):
that the whites could sit onthis side and because there was
both folks in the theater theyhad to separate even the way
that they came in.
Now, did you feel like one ofthe like I do this series?
You know a hundred words everyadult should know and one of the
words is palpable.
You know, could you feel in theair the just, the, I guess, the
(22:47):
history or the environment orthe?
You know by standing on thosestreets and reliving.
You know somebody talking aboutthose moments maybe talk about
how you felt in our tour guideas well, I see.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yeah, it was clay.
It was, it was certainly clay.
Um, just his sense of of defeat, as if, hey, I'm doing my job,
I want people to know about this, but there's nothing we can do
to change.
Uh, and he felt that way and asmuch as I wanted to encourage
(23:19):
him, hey man, we can get throughthis.
He walks those streets and doesthose tours every single day.
And for him to say, yeah, thisis where it happened, but no one
cares.
And you could feel the early1900s in Birmingham.
It felt eerie, it looked eerie,it looked old and I don't mean
(23:42):
old like Historic, yes, yeah,yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Architecturally old.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Yes, yeah, yeah, and just the feeling.
You could feel the death, youcould feel the sorrow in the air
and you could feel that peoplehaven't gotten over what
happened there.
It's still there as much asBirmingham University.
It was buzzing around theuniversity and live with people,
(24:11):
but as you got five, six blocksaway from the university, it
was like you walked back intothe 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, 60s,
you know, and the only thingthat was modern was UAB.
And so, yeah, yeah, you could.
You could definitely feel, youcould definitely feel it.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
One of the things that I noticed, and I don't know
, and I'm sure we probablytalked about it, because I don't
remember if you were on thesame bus as we were going
through the tour, but when wewent through some of the
neighborhoods and you couldstill see a division like a
segregated division, like on oneside of the block was, you
could tell it was still whitefamilies.
And then we went through thiswhole area of like project
(24:58):
counseling where you knew it wasall still black families.
Yeah, what kind of thoughtsthat, what kind of went to mind
as you watch some of thesebuildings that went from nicer
still old but nicer to justpeople still live like this I
didn't know that it stillexisted like that right Ghettos
(25:20):
to me.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
I'm thinking some parts of Park Hill, maybe some
parts of Chicago, you know, orthings that I see on TV, but
I've never seen slums and it wasa big difference.
You could tell even just thestores around that were on the
bad side of the neighborhood.
It was liquor stores, it waslandfills that I seen.
(25:43):
I seen a wood shop, I seencigarette stores, vape stores,
but as we were on the nicer side, I seen grocery stores.
I seen a Sprouts you know whatI mean and so I noticed that the
stores, even to this day,sprouts.
You know what I mean.
And so I noticed that thestores, even to this day, are
still the same.
On the nicer side there's thenicer stores and as you got, as
we started to go where thebombings were happening, there
(26:05):
weren't stores except for liquorstores, and those liquor stores
were run down.
Holes in the wall in the liquorstore, the businesses were
falling apart.
It's as if they never evenattempted to renovate those
areas, they never attempted tobuild it back, as if we're just
going to leave it as a memorialfor what we did to these people,
and they have no interest inbuilding that sector up.
(26:26):
And, as Clay explained to us,hey look, there's sections to
Birmingham and certain sectionsthey just push to the side.
And we went through thosesectors and sections and you
could tell that the plumbinghadn't been done.
You could tell that the houseswere ridden and infested, what
you could tell from the outside,that there were some serious
things going on on the insideand which is a shame, because it
(26:49):
looked the exact same 50 yearsago.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
60 years ago, yeah, wow, was there any one thing
before we jump into now, movinginto selma, was there any one
thing that clay might have saidoh, before we go, that we're
going to go to that night withjanice um kelsey, but what was
there anything that clay saidthat you just put into your mind
, that you remember, that youmight want to share?
Speaker 1 (27:14):
yeah, I remember him telling me about the person who
I can't remember the name of theperson, but who performed at
that theater, got beat up, left,cleaned up and because they
cared so much, they came backand finished their performance.
And that to me, as I want toquit things in life, it's taught
me I can push forward.
(27:35):
If this man back in the 60s canget beat up on stage, bloodied
mouth and need to go to thehospital, go and get checked out
and then go back and finish theshow, I can go finish this last
four hours at work.
I can go do this.
You know what I mean, and so itreally.
That stuck to me, not that hesaid it, but what happened and
(27:56):
how he put it.
It just prefaced it to.
You know, there's no need to beweak in life, you know.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Yeah, I think it was Nat King Cole too.
So I remember the.
You know, it was a performerwho was coming in to perform and
still, it didn't matter howfamous he was, it didn't matter
how many records he had, he wasstill a person who would give
you so so then that night we gosee a lady named Janice Kelsey
who happened to be one of thechildren that was marching.
(28:23):
The adults decided during thismarch that they weren't going to
march because they might not beable to go back to work or they
got beat up and they wouldn'tbe able to take care of their
family.
So Janice decided that as a Ithink she was a junior or senior
in high school that I'm goingto go march, I'm going to go
through this.
I'm willing to get arrested andnot be able to participate in
(28:43):
life.
And so she explained what itwas like.
What was that?
You know, seeing somebody whowas actually there and talking
to you, live up front.
What are some things you mighthave gotten out of that?
Speaker 1 (28:53):
What are some things you might have gotten out of
that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, just the wayshe explained it.
Sitting on the floor in thatcell with, you know, 60 or 70
other of her peers and her mixedfeelings of am I going to get
out of here?
But yes, we did it.
We stood on our tentoes andstood for our rights.
That stuck out to me, thedebate that she had in her mind
(29:15):
of whether she was going to doit or not.
I think that she took courage.
She didn't find it, it wasn'tgiven to her.
She took the courage and,knowing that she would get in
trouble with her parents she wasworried about getting in
trouble with her parents as wellas getting, you know, getting
beat by the police.
But she decided that she wasgoing to go and she went, and
(29:36):
the fact that she got arrestedand had to sit on that floor and
she said she sat there on thatfloor, it was cold, there was no
seats and they just stuck themin there and they kept piling
and piling them in, it broughtme back to that movie, amistad,
where they had them in the cagesand they were packed in.
And that's what was goingthrough my mind was the Amistad
scene on the boat where he saysgive us us free, give us us free
(29:59):
.
And he wants to be free and allof his people are caged in the
bottom and it just for me.
It let me know that this hasbeen going on for not only for a
long time, but very recently.
Me, growing up, I'm thinkingthis is hundreds and hundreds of
years ago, how they put it inour history books and how they
explain it to us.
(30:19):
They don't explain it to usthat we're only two generations
removed from this stuff.
It's just two generations.
Yeah, you know.
And so I had a hard timelooking at white people, the
same afterwards with this, andluckily we had good
conversations.
(30:40):
I'm sure we'll get to thoseconversations, but we had good
conversations with the 18 Blacksand the eight or nine whites
that we had.
We had good conversations andwere able to express our
feelings.
But yeah, it was trying.
It was a trying experience,okay.
So, janice, Kelsey.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
She talks to us.
You know, I think the one thingthat I remember so plainly is
Janice Kelsey's brother and mebeing a track person, and he
said I was an athlete and I wasable to outrun the fire hoses,
(31:20):
fire hoses.
That's the thing as a kid, thatmy job, my goal, my memory is
outrunning somebody trying toroll me down the street with a
fire hose and I was able toescape it.
Just, oh my gosh, the fact that, yeah, and it seemed like.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
It seemed like he had more loving memories of it.
You know where hers were moretraumatic.
His seemed to be we won.
He felt like they won thoseexperiences, you know, and so I
could appreciate him feelinglike they had a got a victory
out of it.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Oh gosh, yes, I hear you there.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
The so then.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
so we leave that night or the next morning, we go
to Selma and you know we hadsome conversations and we did
some more stuff with Jeff andyou know, maybe we can come back
to some of that after, as wejust learned to kind of be with
ourselves and reconciliation injustice.
But then we head over to Selmabecause we're going to go across
the Pettus Bridge.
(32:10):
The main place in the moviethat's called Selma is this
bridge.
That Bloody Sunday happenedwith.
This is where I think a turningpoint in our whole civil rights
movement.
We think of John Lewis leadinga march that's a cross that is
eventually going to go toMontgomery, and so we're walking
(32:31):
and we're in the evening andwe're going to walk from.
You know we're going over thePettus Bridge and then we're
going to go to the AME Churchwhere they started the march.
What were you feeling at thispoint when just the we're in a
whole nother city but it's stillAlabama?
and now, you've seen the moviebefore and now you're standing
in the same place that themovie's based on.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
I went under the bridge.
Oh, you did, I went under thebridge.
When you go, when you go overthe bridge, you can turn right.
Once you get over on the end,you can turn right and go
underneath, and underneath iswhere it hit me.
Um, that's the first time I hadcried while I was in, when I
was in Alabama.
I was on the bridge, under thebridge, and I was by myself, and
(33:15):
I just could feel like, as Iwas on the bridge, under the
bridge, and I was by myself, andI just could feel like, as I
was watching the water go underthe bridge, I'm just watching
the water go, and I began topicture just the bodies that
were dumped in that bridge andwho might have fell over.
And I looked up and I gazed atthe bridge and I don't know what
type of weapons they had, but Ibegan to imagine how it
(33:38):
happened, because I'm there, andso I walked up the bridge down
underneath, and then I walkedback, and then I walked back
across the bridge because Iwanted to experience it twice,
and each time I just began tolook and as I'm looking at the
ground, I'm looking at thecracks and there's the grass
(33:59):
growing through the cracks, andusually when grass grows through
cracks, it's because there'ssome type of fertilizer.
And I'm thinking in my head wasit the bodies that died there?
Was it all this death that madethis like this?
Everything was overgrown ingreen and we'd seen it at night,
(34:20):
but I had my light and I had my, and you could see the green
that was growing througheverything, and you could see
the brown, the brownness on thebank, and usually that's
bloodbath.
Right now, I'm thinking in myhead now can't be stains from 50
, 60, 70 years, but maybe it is.
And so, as I'm, as I'm lookingat it, I'm thinking in my head
(34:40):
no, it can't be stains from 50,60, 70 years, but maybe it is.
And so, as I'm, as I'm lookingat it, I'm just I'm thinking,
wow, people really sacrificetheir lives to stand up for what
they believe.
And then I begin to questionwhat have I stood up for?
What have I put my life on theline for?
Is it my children?
And I realized that I havenever put my life on the line
like they have.
I never would want to.
(35:02):
I know that they sacrificed sothat I wouldn't have to, but
then I began to think of my owncourage, and would I have
courage if I had to?
It began to make meself-regulate and self-check
myself on that bridge as a blackman of color.
And am I doing enough for myrace?
Am I doing enough for my people?
Because look what my peoplewent through here on this bridge
(35:24):
.
You can see Pettus Bridge.
It's right there, it's stillthere, the name itself, but it's
still Pettus Bridge and it'severywhere.
There's Pettus Church, there'sPettus, this.
And as we learned about thename Pettus and how horrible
(35:45):
this name is, I began to looklike, well, he still has a
memory here.
The people here still believethat this is his land.
When there's wrongdoing, youtry to right the wrongdoing, and
by changing the name would beto right the wrongdoing, and I
understand that if you change it, maybe we're erasing history.
But the fact that it's stillbeing honored by the Pettus
(36:08):
Church next to it, the PettusBridge, the Pettus River, pettus
Street, pettis Avenue,everything was Pettis right
there, and it just baffled me toknow that a city, a state,
would still recognize all ofthese things for this one man
that committed such, you know,there's such atrocity in that
(36:29):
name.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
So, yeah, so you know we walk from the bridge over to
the AME Church.
So you know we walk from thebridge over to the AME church
and I know your family is, youknow pastors and you know have
the churches in the city.
Did that have any significancefor you, sitting on the steps of
that church as it went through?
Maybe kind of just share just alittle bit about that.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
You know, sitting on the steps, I made sure I took a
picture.
It felt like a piece of me as Isat on that.
I sat there and I just said,okay, this is where it went down
and I am here, and I felt onewith my own culture.
It really gave me a feeling ofpeace and I know that that
(37:16):
sounds weird because there wasso much to unpack there, but I
felt at peace, knowing that,okay, now I can do something.
Now I actually have the driveto go out and do something about
this, whatever it might be.
But it gave me peace that, ok,I'm here, this is where Martin
(37:37):
Luther King was at.
This is the church, this is asyou look around, this is where
this is everything.
And I'd only seen pictures, I'donly seen in.
I had a calendar that had allthese things in it, but it
wasn't the same as sitting onthe on the steps.
(37:57):
It wasn't the same as feelingthat and saying, hey, I am now a
part of history.
I realized that this is where Icome from.
You know, not necessarily me,but my people.
This was a staple of how wemoved forward, because when that
happened, a lot of thingstranspired.
Afterwards, a lot of felt theneed to move and the need to
(38:19):
mourn, and so yeah, for me itwas just the same feeling that I
had felt the entire trip of wowI I am completely clueless as
to what the South really was.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
The South really was.
I'm sorry someone might thinkI'm on mute.
Thank you for sharing that.
That was, oh my gosh.
Yeah, so we leave Selma andthen we end up going to why you
came on the trip.
Right, we have this museum, andon the way to the museum
(38:53):
there's a gentleman Dr Mack wasone of the greatest historians
of that time that kind of talkedto us a little bit about what
we were going to see when we gotto the museum.
Is there anything from thatdrive?
Because not only are welistening to Dr Mack tell us
about history, we are drivingdown the same road in which they
walked from Selma to Montgomeryon that march road in which
(39:18):
they walk from Selma toMontgomery on that march, and so
we're seeing this whole thingunfold before we ever get to the
museum and hearing some historybehind it.
Is there anything from thatconversation that you could?
Speaker 1 (39:24):
talk about.
So when Scott had it on histhing and it kept going in and
out, so I wasn't able to hear DrMack, I wasn't able to hear him
talk.
It kept going in and out.
I wasn't able to hear dr mac.
I wasn't able to hear him talk.
It kept going in and out, sounfortunately I wasn't quite
sure what he was saying.
Um, so I, I, yeah, I, I don'tknow okay.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
So what's good is we have that recorded and so I'll
make sure you go back and I'llsend it to you so you can listen
to that whole uh talk while wewere going.
So I didn't realize that someof you guys missed that.
But yeah, it's all recorded andyou'll be able to hear the
whole thing.
So we get to the museum and youknow it's a nice building, it
is a good place where you'rekind of not sure, because this
(40:04):
is why you came tell us aboutthe museum and your experience
at the museum the whole day thatwe're spending there.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
I was excited as we walked in.
I didn't know I knew that thisis where I was excited as we
walked in.
I didn't know I knew that thisis where I was coming to look
for the names I was given right.
And so I go in there and I'mthinking that Edward and Dick
Mays are two people that hadsome big contribution that you
(40:32):
know.
I'm like, okay, we're going tofind out that we're royalty or
something you know.
And I'm thinking because it'sBlack History Museum.
As I walked in, it was an eeriefeeling the music.
When you walk into the museumthey have the boats.
It's this water, it's thisscreen and this water and all
(40:54):
you hear is the water and yousee the boat come in and it's
coming and it's a, it's a 3dscreen, so it's real.
You feel like you're in in thescreen and you hear this guy
come on and he's talking andhe's telling you about what's
about to happen and it's tellingyou the expectations of the
slaves as they're coming closerto the shore.
(41:16):
And then they get to the shoreand you can go left or you can
go right, but it goes into thisnext room and I remember to the
left there was a young ladysinging a hymn behind this cage
and then Wade in the water.
Wade in the water and she'ssinging and she begins to talk
(41:37):
to you about how she misses hermother and she misses her father
and she doesn't know where theywent and she's not sure where
she's at or where she came from.
And she's on her fourth stopand she just wants to go back
home.
And she's telling you the storyand how she's praying to God.
And then you look to the leftand on the left is another cage
(41:58):
with a man and he's determinedto get back to his wife and his
kids and he's been captured.
And you can keep going.
There's more and more people,and that's the first, like the
first feeling, and you knowthat's just the entryway.
And then there's differentsections, there's modern day
slavery, there's the segregation, and then there's the spot that
(42:25):
I went first, where I was ableto see Ed and Dick and come to
find out that my family, ed andDick, were not royalty.
They were shot in 1901.
They were accused Ed wasaccused of talking to a white
woman and Dick was accused ofkilling a cop.
Come to find out, a guy namedEarl Dawson was the actual
(42:46):
killer and the actual personthat touched the young lady.
My family was lynched in Selma,right there, and there was a
jar that they had dug up fromthe actual soil and in this jar
(43:07):
they had put the soil over someof the remains where my family
had died, where Ed and Dick werelynched and shot.
Family had died.
Where Ed and Dick were lynchedand shot.
The crazy thing about Ed andDick were not only were they
shot and lynched, they were cutinto thousands of just thousands
of cuts after they were dead.
And I was able to read thisstory in the museum and,
(43:34):
thankfully, the lady that workedthere she told me, she said hey
, you found your family.
She allowed me to take somepictures and so I got a picture
of the full story and picturesof the jar and pictures of me
with the jar.
And that was the most shatteringthing for me, knowing that my
(43:56):
bloodline, specifically, was apart of slavery, um, knowing
that it was a part ofsegregation, knowing that it was
a part of of this piece ofAmerica, this piece of history.
Uh, because before I didn'tknow and because I didn't know,
I I could say yeah, yeah, yeah,we all, as Black people,
(44:17):
experienced this and we all youknow.
But once there was a nameEdward and a name Dick attached
to it and it was verifiable andthey had the records and I was
able to order the records andthey, you know, go right up to
my father, thomas Mays, and thentwo generations before Dick and
(44:39):
Edward back into slavery.
It shows the whole lineage andit was bone chilling and it was
sad.
It was sad to know that mygreat, great, great great
grandfather was sold, actuallyfrom Spain and Mays the name
Mays is a Spaniard name fromSpain, and they sold them from
(45:02):
Africa, brought into Spain andthen sold from Spain over into
Louisiana, then up into Alabamaand that's where Dick and Edward
were hung, shot and stabbed.
And so there was a whole linethat I had no idea about, my
roots I had no idea about.
And I was able to find my rootsand be grateful and understand.
(45:25):
Okay, now I know.
Now I know the anger that mygrandmother and grandfather had.
You know.
Now I know when they told mehey, you can talk to him, but
don't try.
I understand what they weresaying.
You know I understand what theysaid.
I always be careful, keep, staybuttoned up around them.
I understand now, um to whereback then I didn't.
(45:48):
I, before this trip, not evenback then before, literally
before this trip, I didn'tnecessarily agree with grandma,
and now I understand and agreewith how she felt, you know, and
yeah, yeah, so that experiencethey have this room, that it's
(46:10):
like a calming room, areflection room, and I remember
I just went and sat in thatcrowd for about 20 minutes after
realizing that it was.
You know, that my family hadbeen through this.
But then, as I looked up,there's just all these pictures
of all the amazing Black peopleand people of color that have
done the utmost amazing things.
(46:31):
And it brought pride to mebecause I seen the different
inventions and the differentpeople and the different
creators and the different bookwriters and storytellers and all
these amazing things of Blackpeople that we've built in that
room, aside from the rest of themuseum, was a part of peace and
(46:53):
of love and showing that, hey,we are somebody and we are an
amazing culture and this is whatwe've done as a culture.
These are the amazing thingsthat we've invented and built,
and so that brought me a littlebit of peace, but I was
physically drained.
I remember as I walked out thosedoors the energy was gone from
(47:17):
me, I felt enlightened, I feltlike I had gained so much
knowledge.
But I was drained.
I was angry.
I wasn't angry because I wastoo drained to be angry, I was
just tired.
I was very tired, yeah, butthankful, I was just tired.
(47:38):
I was very tired, yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
But thankful.
I was thankful for theopportunity to go there and be
part of it and learn and grow,and that kind of brings us back.
I mean, we had a greatconversation afterwards where we
got in a room and kind of wereable to let some of that out.
But also one of the things thatyou said is it said this is
what I need to do.
You know whether it was on.
(48:04):
You know, as you're looking atthe Pettus Bridge or you're in
the museum, now you're thinkingabout what is my responsibility.
So we come back home and whathas you know as a result of the
trip?
What have you been doing?
Speaker 1 (48:20):
or thinking about, or experiencing and wanting to
change.
As you now know, I've had thisexperience, but now what?
Yeah, so the youth.
Um, I came back with anunderstanding that we have been
taught the wrong things all ofour lives, and the truth that I
thought was the truth isn't thetruth.
And I came back to Denver,colorado, fully expecting to
(48:42):
transfer my experience into theyouth coming up from ages eight
to 18, right, and so what I'vebeen doing is speaking about
this in my classes.
I'm a trauma therapy specialistand I also work at the Boys and
Girls Club, and so I've beenspeaking avidly about this
experience and showing peoplehey, this is what I went through
(49:02):
, this is what I learned, andthis is where you can get this
information, and these arethings that you need to learn
about your culture, but alsocreating a space for these kids
to learn.
At my church I know you've beento the church a lot of those
(49:24):
rooms that we had did get soldup by the apprenticeship, but I
was able to save four rooms formyself, and one of the rooms
that I'm turning into isspecifically for
African-American studies, toshow our youth where they can
come and learn about where we'refrom, learn how they got here.
I essentially want toreincarnate what I've seen at
(49:47):
the museum in a smaller form,inside of this.
Now, also in there, I want tohave a place for kids to come in
and have fun.
Now, also in there, I want tohave a place for kids to come in
and have fun.
So I've ordered theseinformational gaming tables.
I tell you, brian, these thingsare amazing.
They're these touchscreentables where I can install
certain programs, historyprograms on them, and then
(50:10):
they're innovative where thekids can touch them, learn and
learn about their history.
And so I'm having a gaming roomand one.
The other room is all VR.
It's going to be VR, where I'mdoing virtual learning.
And then the fourth room is amedia room where I want to be
able to transfer the children'smessage to the children.
So I want to have similar howyou have your room.
I want it ran by the children,where the children are speaking
(50:32):
to the children.
So I want to have similar howyou have your room.
I want it ran by the children,where the children are speaking
to the children and it's theirown message.
And so, yeah, originally Iwanted to.
As you came to the meeting atthe church, I wanted to help the
homeless and I think I willlead up to that.
(50:52):
But I think the starting pointis here and because I have the
things that can do that, so,yeah, I came back and
immediately got got to work andand having people come check out
the spaces and also, as I'mgoing to different schools and
asking if I can come and speakto their children about it, and
I think the next step is gettingyoung adults and children there
(51:16):
, and I noticed in some of ourconversations we said that there
has to be some type of buffer.
They can't just go straight andsee what I've seen at the age
of eight.
That might be detrimental tothem.
If we're bringing people thereand if there is a room and a
space that I have where they canlearn about Journey to Freedom
(51:39):
and then go on the experienceand witness it there, there is a
buffer here and then they cango there.
And I think that can be allages and all inclusive, and so I
(52:01):
think getting people out thereto see it and experience that.
Because, as much as I said, Ihad a somber feeling.
It was an amazing somberfeeling.
It was a feeling that I neededto have.
It was a feeling that I wantedto have.
I wanted to feel my emotions,and so, and I did, and so I want
to recreate that, and that'swhat I've been doing since I've
been back these last hundreddays.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (52:11):
Well, and I just think you know and maybe you're
wrong, but you know the childrenof Aurora are going to benefit
from these visions and whatGod's placed in your heart.
Does this happen?
Or maybe it does, and it justtakes longer without some of the
(52:31):
things that you learned on thetrip.
Speaker 1 (52:32):
No, I don't think it.
I don't think it happens.
Maybe not for me.
I don't think I had the courageto do it.
I was very timid and had someself-doubt.
While I'm very courageous onthe outside, on the inside I can
be timid and it gave me courage.
I was able to take courage fromthere and I don't think I would
(52:53):
have gotten it from anywhereelse.
I don't think any podcast Ilistened to.
I don't think any show I go toany you know motivational
speaker I go to see live canreplicate what I got to
experience in Alabama, inBirmingham, in Selma, in class,
because the classes that we hadwere essential, because they
(53:16):
gave context and they put aparameter around what I was
experiencing and it allowed theclasses allowed me to unpack my
feelings.
Had I not been able to do that,I don't know if I would have
came back with the same love forpeople that want to go.
So I think the experience plusthe classes was amazing.
(53:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (53:39):
We think about relationship and how important
relationship is.
Do you believe that you createdsome of those relationships for
life as a result of the folksin the cohort of people that we?
Speaker 1 (53:51):
went through it with yeah, yeah, amazingly enough I
have you know, I've I'veactually been been to your house
and and you've been to mychurch and I've been able to
same with Scott and even Steveas I've gone through the classes
on Mighty Networks.
There's been so many people.
The apprenticeship is in in ourbuilding now and that's because
(54:14):
I was working with Scott and acouple other guys and so, yeah,
I think the trip itself hasgiven me lifelong relationships,
business relationships andfriendships.
Speaker 2 (54:25):
So, yeah, oh, that's cool.
Well, what I can tell is itseems like there's a, you know,
when you think of a caterpillaror whatever, that goes into a
shell and then it gets to becomea butterfly, your name
continues to come up inconversations.
And, you know, can we get Joshinvolved in this?
Or how can you know, would Joshlike to do this?
(54:47):
You know, even with whetherit's Young Life or you know
other folks that are just havingthese conversations with me,
folks that are just having theseconversations with me, and I'm
just so thankful that you wereable that God put it in your
dad's heart to say this issomething Josh needs to do, and
so I can't wait to do it again.
I can't wait to have you knowanother trip where we're going
(55:08):
to take more people and we'regoing to get you know more folks
to be there and come.
Is there anything?
You know I've asked a lot ofquestions and been selfish on my
side.
Is there anything that you wantto make sure you add?
Like I would love for you totell people how to get ahold to
be part of some of the thingsyou're doing.
Speaker 1 (55:25):
But yeah, what didn't I cover that you wanted to make
sure that was said in this, inthis yeah, I know, in the in the
preview, we were going to talkabout the identity, trust, faith
and health.
The one thing I wanted to addto that is love as a pillar.
I just saw that and, as far asme, you guys will see me around.
(55:45):
You guys can follow me onInstagram.
That's where I post a lot of myvideos with the youth I work
with and, uh, my handle is goodunderscore night 87 as G O O D.
Underscore K N, I, g H, t, likethe knight in shining armor 87.
Um, and you can find a lot ofwhat I'm doing at the church on
(56:06):
on my Instagram and, um,everything that I'm doing in the
community as far as the youngmen that I work with, uh, I do a
segment called Take Five and Ido five minutes, just a five
minute interview with youngyouth around the city and what
they're doing, from buildingrobots to trying out for youth
leagues, all sorts of thingsthat they're doing.
So you can check that all outon my Instagram.
Speaker 2 (56:27):
Yeah, oh, my gosh, thank you for doing that, thank
you for being part of the showtoday, thank you for this whole
thing.
I mean for those of you whowould like to go on it.
You know you're watching thisand go, man, I would love to go
there.
Contact us, you know, click thelinks below.
We will get you there.
The goal that I have, and forthe program, is that we get to
(56:52):
change the world based onknowing where we came from.
And if we know where we camefrom, we have the ability to
know where we're going.
You know, god put us on thisearth for all these different
purposes, and if we can findthose purposes through knowing
who we are, better the world'sgoing to be a better place, and
so we want to keep track of youand what you're doing, and you
(57:12):
know.
So you know this is probablyone of many more conversations
that you and I will get to haveand to have in a forum that
other people will be able to seeand watch and be able to
experience.
And so you know we willcontinue to pray for your family
, we'll continue to make aprogram for you and the things
that you're doing to make ourcommunity a better place, and so
(57:36):
thank you again for being partof it.
If you have not subscribed yetfor this podcast, I'm asking you
to go ahead and do that now.
I'm saying this is my call toaction is learn from those who
have come before you.
Learn from those so many greatefforts we're going to do this
series.
Josh is just one of many thatwent on this trip, so we'll hear
(57:57):
from different perspectives.
I did Jason Tucker just theother day, and so we've got him,
and so he came with hisperspective and how the trip
affected him, and we'll geteverybody that's on the trip.
Eventually.
I talked to Scott a little bit,so we'll just continue down the
series, and so thank you guysfor being on.
(58:18):
Don't forget you were God'sgreatest gift.
He loves you, if you allow himto, and so we want to make sure
that we see you guys on the nextone.
Have just this incredible,amazing day today, and we'll
look forward to talking to yousoon.
Speaker 1 (58:31):
See you guys, yes, sir.
I do have a son, joshua Jr, who's autistic,
nonverbal, and with him ittaught me the utmost patience.
As I work with kids in theschools, I find it very easy
just because they can speak.
When I come home and talk to myson and he can't speak
everything, now he knows signlanguage and has about 300 words
, but he's 13, but up until 10,no words.
And so learning his emotions,learning how to see him for who
(00:24):
he is and being preemptive withyou know if he's going to, if
he's going to have a episodewhere he's breaking out and
yelling, you know I have to be,be there and understand that
it's on the way.
And it really transferred intomy job to where now I can see
kids.
They don't have to say anything.
I can tell something's wrong, Ican tell something's good,
something's right.
My son has been a big part inhow I operate.
(00:44):
Ed is my best friend.
Joshua Jr is my best friendbecause he keeps me humble.
He's the most loving human I'veever seen.
He doesn't judge, you know,whether I'm having a bad day or
a good day.
He comes up and he just hugs meand you know he wants love and
he loves and it's unconditional.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
And to me he is the epitome of what love should look
like.
Welcome, welcome, welcome andwelcome to another edition of
the Journey to Freedom podcast.
I'm Dr B, I'm your host and weare going to go through a series
over the next few weeks of.
I believe I've talked to youknow, during several of my
guests and several of myepisodes the fact that we were
going to take a group of men, agroup of black men, to Alabama
(01:40):
on a civil rights tour to kindof find out, you know so not not
necessarily everybody stuck,but to really kind of understand
the culture, understand wherewe came from.
I know I grew up here in Denver, colorado.
I moved to California andstayed there for 25 years but
had hardly any exposure to theSouth.
I know that, like when I was akid, I remember we went to
(02:02):
Lexington for a family reunion,but I had no recollection or
understanding of anything inAlabama, anything in Louisiana.
In fact, my first trip toLouisiana was about six months
ago.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
So I had no exposure there.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
I still have never been to Mississippi.
I've been to Jacksonville,florida, a few times, and you
know.
But when I think of the South,you know I've been to Virginia
to go to DC but haven't been to.
You know, I think we did acouple of track meets in
Arkansas but I had no realexposure to the South or what
that meant, other than what Iread in history books.
(02:41):
I read in what I read in.
You know I had my grandma.
My grandma grew up on a Choctawreservation in Oklahoma and so
you know I had more exposure tothe Native American side of my
culture than I did the AfricanAmerican side.
I know on my dad's side, mygrandma, our folks, are from
Kentucky and we can trace themback to slaves and and you know
(03:06):
what, what happened and wentthrough there I you know, I
think I have my, you know, josh,I think I have my dad on here
and he kind of talked about whenhe had to drink out of he's
from Missouri and had to drinkout of colored restrooms.
I had a conversation with mymom just the other day and she
talked about like my uncle'sgetting beat up in California
and the issues that they had andthe clan guys showing up to my
(03:26):
mom and my dad about that, butstill no real connection, uh, to
to what that is other than andyou're way younger than me, but
there was a, you know, in the70s, when I was a kid, uh, a, um
, a mini series called rootsthat came.
You may have seen it.
Since then, that was, oh mygosh.
All this stuff happened, butuntil I went to Alabama and
(03:49):
actually experienced some of thethings that I had talked about,
I didn't really trulyunderstand it.
And so the series that we'll begoing through is we were able
to go on that trip.
We went on that trip a fewmonths ago, about 100 days ago,
and because I didn't want tostart the series immediately and
come back, because I wanted tofind out, as a result, what
people are doing now, and soexcited to talk to Josh he went
(04:12):
with us on the trip.
But before we jump into the tripand what was learned and what
was, you know, obtained, I'dreally love to kind of focus, to
be able to get to know you alittle bit.
Maybe you can tell your story,tell where you grew up, how you
grew up, all those wonderfulthings that became the man you
are and then we'll jump into thetrip and then kind of talk
(04:34):
about identity and talk aboutother people going and would it
be great for another group to go.
So I'm going to give you thefloor.
You can.
You can start it the day youwere born and you can start
somewhere.
I'm going to give you access.
You tell your story how youthink your story should be told.
So the floor is yours.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Yeah, I mean.
So.
I'm 37 years old now.
I'll be 38 here in December.
I'm born and raised in Colorado.
I grew up in Aurora, one of therare families that still had
mom and dad in the house.
A lot of families when I wasgrowing up didn't have mom,
didn't have dad in the house,but I did, and my parents were
pastors.
So I grew up knowing God.
(05:10):
I grew up knowing faith,knowing love and church all day
on Sunday, church all day onWednesday, thursday and then
rehearsals on Saturday.
So I grew up in the church andone of the things I got to learn
that really, really set in meis just love for people.
And I grew up in the church andone of the things I got to
learn that really, really set inme is just love for people.
And I grew up watching myfather and my mother just love
the saints and up in late nights, two in the morning, praying
(05:33):
with them going to visit youknow sister, so-and-so brother,
so-and-so late at night, earlyin the morning, just to see if
they're OK, just to check onthem showing up at the hospital.
So I really learned how to lovepeople at a very, very young
age.
I grew up with a lot of sisters,so we had, you know, four women
in the household and my father,and so I got to learn a woman's
(05:56):
touch and I got to learn how tobe soft.
But with my father I alsolearned how to be tough, and so
I had a good mix.
Growing up.
I went to Gateway High School,played football there, which
taught me a lot of things.
Football and sports taught me alot of things.
But, most importantly, growingup with my sisters, I learned
(06:17):
how to respect women, and I'velearned that that is a huge
thing for me, just respectingwomen.
I got to hear the conversationswith my sisters when they were
talking to boys on the phone,but, more importantly, the
conversations they had with eachother when they got off the
phone, which really gave meinsight to women and how they
operate.
And then watching my dad be aman's man.
You know he was.
He was a man's man.
(06:38):
He fixed the car, he catered tomy mother, catered to my
sisters.
You know he was always firstone up, always in the gym,
always making sure that I wasdoing what I was supposed to do.
And I learned accountabilityfrom him at a very young age and
I understood the importance ofit and what not having
accountability looked likethrough some of my family
members.
It's crazy growing up because Ihad family that was in the
(07:03):
church and then I also hadfamily that was addicted to
drugs.
And seeing both sides of thoseyou know Sunday morning in
church and then after seeingfamily come over to the house,
some of them strung out, itreally really gave me insight to
how this world operates.
It's a tough world.
It made me want to help peopleand so I grew up wanting to be a
(07:26):
psychologist.
It turns out I ended up being atrauma therapy specialist,
which I do love because I workwith young people, and just
growing up in the church hasreally made me want to give back
to the community.
So I had a good childhood, Iloved it and I feel like it
really helps me cater to what Ido now, which is give back to
(07:48):
the community.
My trials and tribulations havebeen, you know, car accidents
and you know, breaking my legsand breaking my arms and having
to fight back from that.
But my parents really kept mein a safe area.
I wasn't hip to drug dealing.
I wasn't hip to anything likethat because my dad wouldn't
(08:11):
allow me to be around it.
It wasn't until I got olderwhere I got to experience the
world for what it was.
My parents really shielded mefrom it and while it was good in
some, it was bad in some waysas well.
Some things I had to learn onthe curve because I hadn't
experienced it, and other thingsI knew well.
You know how to help, how totreat, how to love through it.
(08:31):
And yeah, that's really me,just a Christ-driven young man.
You know I try to work with kids.
I love working with kids.
I do have a son, joshua Jr,who's autistic, nonverbal, and
with him it taught me the utmostpatience.
(08:52):
As I work with kids in theschools, I find it very easy
just because they can speak.
When I come home and talk to myson and he can't speak
everything now he knows signlanguage and has about 300 words
, but he's 13.
But up until 10, no words,words.
But you know he's 13, but upuntil 10, no words.
And so learning his emotions,learning how to see him for who
he is and being preemptive withyou know, if he's going to, if
he's going to have a episodewhere he's breaking out, um and
(09:16):
yelling, you know I have to bebe there and understand that
it's on the way.
Um, and it really transferredinto my job to where now I can
see kids.
They don't have to say anything.
I can tell something's wrong, Ican tell something's good,
something's right, and so, yeah,my son has been a big part in
how I operate.
That is my best friend.
Joshua Jr is my best friendbecause he keeps me humble.
(09:37):
He's the most loving human I'veever seen.
He doesn't judge, you know,whether I'm having a bad day or
a good day.
He comes up and he just hugs meand you know he wants love and
he loves and it's unconditionaland, uh, to me he is the epitome
of what love should look like.
It doesn't matter what happens.
My son always loves me.
So, um, that's my driving forcenow is just the love for my son
(09:59):
.
I love all my children, mydaughters as well, but my son,
especially with his condition, Ilove him, yeah.
So, yeah, that's me, that's me.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Oh my gosh.
Well, thank you for sharingthat.
I mean kind of cool to hearthat you were able to see a
couple of the sides of what lifecould be like and then try, you
know, okay, this is the lifethat I'm going to choose, this
is what I'm going to do, as faras you know my belief and love
of helping people, and I thinkthat's not only to be
commendable but just really neatto just see what an influence
(10:31):
really looks like.
You know, because there's somany people that we interview
and they talk and they kind ofsay, hey, this was the trauma of
my childhood and all the thingsthat went on and it sounds like
there's parts of it where thatcould have been traumatic.
There's other parts of it.
They were just beautiful andfantastic.
So thank you for sharing One ofthe things that I think that
(10:53):
you would love to kind ofexplore now as we, as we go the
trip.
And so you know, originally,when we were planning out the
trip and you know I have apretty good relationship with
your dad and we were going tohave your dad go on the trip and
he had said, well, you knowwhat, you know he's been to the
South and he's experienced a lotof the things there, but he
(11:14):
didn't think that you had a lotof exposure and you guys might
even have relatives and thatkind of stuff that he wanted you
to learn about, and so maybeyou can just even take us to
that conversation that hemight've had with you.
That was him saying you knowwhat, I have this opportunity
for you to go on this trip.
Do you want to go?
And then maybe what was thatlike?
(11:34):
And maybe your thought processas you were thinking through
what it might be like.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Yeah.
So he called me and I didn'tanswer and I called him back and
he said hey, son, I got aquestion for you and I said
what's up?
And he said you know you wantto go on a trip.
And so I'm thinking going on atrip with him.
I'm like, yeah, sure.
And he says it's to Alabama.
And I think in my head, yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
I'm like Alabama dad.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
And he says well, there's, there's this group,
there's these people I know andI can't actually make it.
And, as you said, I'veexperienced the South and I know
that you haven't, son and he'sbeen everywhere Johannesburg,
africa.
He's been all over the worldtraveling and he knows that I
have not I've traveled America,but I have not been to the South
.
And so he asked if I wanted togo and I said yeah, and he said
(12:27):
well, there's a guy named Brianand I know him well and you'll
be going with him.
So I'm going to just exchangeyour information with you.
You'll get an email.
And he didn't tell me muchabout it at first, and so it was
over the phone.
And then that following Sunday,I came to him after I got the
email from you guys, and I said,hey, dad, this seems pretty
interesting.
And then he sat me down andshowed me Edward and Dick and
(12:51):
said, hey, I want you to lookfor these, these guys, him.
And I said, okay, well, youknow what's what's going on.
And he says I just want you tolook for him.
And he didn't.
He didn't really explain why orwhat.
He really wanted me to figureit out for myself.
(13:12):
And I do appreciate that,because when I got there, what I
experienced was crazy.
But back to the conversation.
He said you know, go ahead andexperience it.
I want you to go and I want youto come back and I just want
you to share with the men of thechurch what you experienced.
And yeah, so I said, ok, cool.
So I was thinking, you know, Iwas going just to a history
museum and to hang out with someguys that believed, that were
(13:35):
faith driven, and I thought thatwas that I didn't realize there
was going to be.
All that was the experience.
So the experience itself wasvery overwhelming.
I experienced every singleemotion, certain emotions that I
haven't felt that deep of ananger or that deep of a sorrow
or that deep of a wow, this iswhere I'm from, this is how it
(14:00):
started, this is okay.
Now I get you know, going fromthe, the shooting and the
lynching of my family, I get howthey traveled up through
Louisiana, right, and how theycame all the way across West,
through Missouri and throughKansas and landed in Colorado,
right.
And so I was able to to traceit back just by simply going on
(14:22):
this experience and and therewas just so much that that that
happened in that trip.
That was just utterly amazing,yeah okay, good.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
So, and that's grabbing, because so you kind of
don't know what it is.
Uh, now you, you you're in theairport there's, there's
strangers that are yeah amongstus.
There's a group, you know,there's a group, uh, you find us
, uh, you know, and then so wefly.
We kind of get to know eachother a little bit.
And I know in the airport, whenwe get to Shuttleworth Airport
(14:52):
in Birmingham, that there isthis vending machine that is a
barbecue machine.
Maybe just kind of talk aboutwhat we are.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Well, see, and I'm from Colorado, right?
So vending machines here arejust popping candy, you know,
maybe some chips.
We get down there and it's anactual vending machine for
barbecue and it cooks thebarbecue Like we were all
standing around it trying tolook in the back of it to see if
there was a kitchen behind that.
They cook it and serve itthrough, or how it was going.
But it was the most odd thingand one of the guys that went
(15:26):
with us they tried it.
I think they liked it.
It didn't look like thepictures.
I'll tell you that it didn'tlook.
It did not look like thepictures.
The pictures on the side theylooked like some real good
cuisine, but as it came out itlooked like, you know, like a
McRib from McDonald's.
One of the old school McRibs iswhat it looked like.
But it was a genius idea.
I got to give it to them.
It was a genius idea.
(15:47):
And as we looked at it on theInternet, it looked like they
had a couple of locations.
So it looks like they're doingpretty well.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Yeah, yeah, I think we found like 700 vending
machines all around.
Yeah, they're there and I was.
The fact that you could meet ina machine that's at an airport
Right, it was machine that's atan airport, right, I was.
It was just hilarious.
So, you know, we move in andwe're starting to, you know,
combine the group.
You know the group have, uh, 19folks of color and then it had,
uh, you know, then we have, youknow, eight or nine.
(16:13):
Uh, you know folks that are,you know, white folks that are
part of of the experience and westart out that night and I
don't know how much you rememberabout the night we're talking
about story and talking about,you know, one of our podcast
hosts here.
You know, one of my podcastfolks that I did an episode on,
you know, kind of led a sessionto try to get to know each other
(16:37):
.
Did you begin to feeluncomfortable or feel, you know,
maybe kind of talk about whatyour thought process was there?
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Yeah, yeah, you're talking about with Jeff.
Yeah, yeah, with Jeff.
Yes, yes, I thought it was agood icebreaker.
Being the fact that my dad wassupposed to go and my dad has
all these credentials, I feltlesser than as I walked into the
door.
You know, as I look at it, it'sDr Brian, it's not Dr Joshua,
(17:06):
right, and there's all theseother, all these people with
these positions, and I'm not myfather, and so it was awkward
until I got into the room and wehad that icebreaker and we went
around and we tried to do astory and I realized that these
are just people, just like I am.
We're all just people and weall have a mission, we all.
(17:27):
So for me, it really made mefeel at home, I enjoyed it and
it kind of took the edge off forme and I think I had an edge
all the way up until we got intothe conference room and as we
were starting because I wasn'texpecting this type of
experience you know, I'm likeconference classes, what I
thought I was going to a museumand so, yeah, I liked it and it
(17:50):
also, let me know how you haveto work together in order to
tell the complete story, right?
You know we only had a part ofthe story for each person and,
as the story's coming around,before it gets to you, you don't
know how it's going to turn.
It's literally one personbefore you and then you have to
go, and it made us be quick onour feet.
(18:12):
It made us have to trust theperson before and it made us
have to support the person after, knowing, hey, I can't say
something that they can't comeafter and say, and I'm hoping
that the person before me sayssomething that I can come off of
and not be embarrassed.
So, yeah, it was a goodicebreaker and it kind of it
showed all of us to be humans.
I liked it Cool.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
So Jeff Campbell is a person who he runs a a local
spot here in Denver called theEmancipation Theater and where
he talks about story and how totake folks that, whether they've
been marginalized or they'vebeen traumatized or they've had
great lives, and help us tounderstand our story and how it
(18:56):
fits into the greater about.
And so he brought us togetherand allowed us to begin to talk
through some issues that weusually don't talk about, or if
we do talk about them, we talkabout them in the circles in
which we are most comfortable in.
You know, if we're going to talkabout, you know, you know
discrimination, and usually whenyou have those conversations at
(19:18):
least the ones I've been partof if we have several black men
or black women and we kind oftalk about how we've been
discriminated against, but wedon't add in, you know, our
white counterparts and say, well, how did your family deal with
this?
What did you learn while youwere growing up?
And so we kind of set the tonefor the trip as a part of that
(19:43):
process of saying, ok, we needto get together if we're going
to go through this experiencetogether and learn from each
other.
And so we go through that thatevening, you know, we start
creating relationships with the28 people that are there, and
then the next day we decidewe're going to go on a tour, and
(20:04):
so I don't know if you hadheard about Birmingham before.
This tour is going to be yourfirst exposure to the South and
Birmingham.
Kind of talk about maybe justsome of the stops we made or the
things that you learned as wewent on this tour in Birmingham.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
Yeah, so I've never I had never been to Alabama
period or anywhere near thatarea.
And the experience there, Ithink, seeing the statues of the
dogs on the leashes and as theywere biting at the young women,
seeing some of the buildingsactually getting to touch some
of the gravel that they had, andthen just seeing the buildings
(20:43):
with the bombs and the smoke,the tar of the smoke that's
still against the building, andseeing it in the movie, you know
, or hearing about it in history, is one thing, but being at
ground zero, it brought chillsto me.
Um, going around and and justwalking as we walked and we said
(21:05):
, hey, this is the separationline.
If you were black back then youcouldn't cross this line into
this park.
You couldn't, you couldn't gothat way.
And this is the street, andstanding there knowing that, hey
, if this was 50 years ago, aswe walked across to the white
side, I could go to jail, Icould have dogs sick on me,
something could happen to me forcrossing this street.
(21:25):
And so immediately my mind wentto I'm completely ungrateful
for what I've been giving as aBlack man in today's age and I
began to appreciate what myelders had went through.
I didn't agree and I thought Idid.
I really did think genuinelythat I appreciated what grandma,
(21:47):
grandpa, great uncles, aunties,that what they had went through
.
But I didn't because I, I justI didn't understand that just
simply crossing the street andonce you're there and you're on
the corner, you just it's yeah,it's bone chilling, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
And then, you know, as we go through, we go to, like
, the 16th Street Mall, where weknow Dr Martin Luther King
spoke at.
We go to where houses werebeing bombed just because they
were trying to create equalrights and we were trying to.
You know, you go through parksand you know, like I think they
talked about a theater wherethere was a rope down the middle
(22:27):
that the whites could sit onthis side and because there was
both folks in the theater theyhad to separate even the way
that they came in.
Now, did you feel like one ofthe like I do this series?
You know a hundred words everyadult should know and one of the
words is palpable.
You know, could you feel in theair the just, the, I guess, the
(22:47):
history or the environment orthe?
You know by standing on thosestreets and reliving.
You know somebody talking aboutthose moments maybe talk about
how you felt in our tour guideas well, I see.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yeah, it was clay.
It was, it was certainly clay.
Um, just his sense of of defeat, as if, hey, I'm doing my job,
I want people to know about this, but there's nothing we can do
to change.
Uh, and he felt that way and asmuch as I wanted to encourage
(23:19):
him, hey man, we can get throughthis.
He walks those streets and doesthose tours every single day.
And for him to say, yeah, thisis where it happened, but no one
cares.
And you could feel the early1900s in Birmingham.
It felt eerie, it looked eerie,it looked old and I don't mean
(23:42):
old like Historic, yes, yeah,yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Architecturally old.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Yes, yeah, yeah, and just the feeling.
You could feel the death, youcould feel the sorrow in the air
and you could feel that peoplehaven't gotten over what
happened there.
It's still there as much asBirmingham University.
It was buzzing around theuniversity and live with people,
(24:11):
but as you got five, six blocksaway from the university, it
was like you walked back intothe 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, 60s,
you know, and the only thingthat was modern was UAB.
And so, yeah, yeah, you could.
You could definitely feel, youcould definitely feel it.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
One of the things that I noticed, and I don't know
, and I'm sure we probablytalked about it, because I don't
remember if you were on thesame bus as we were going
through the tour, but when wewent through some of the
neighborhoods and you couldstill see a division like a
segregated division, like on oneside of the block was, you
could tell it was still whitefamilies.
And then we went through thiswhole area of like project
(24:58):
counseling where you knew it wasall still black families.
Yeah, what kind of thoughtsthat, what kind of went to mind
as you watch some of thesebuildings that went from nicer
still old but nicer to justpeople still live like this I
didn't know that it stillexisted like that right Ghettos
(25:20):
to me.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
I'm thinking some parts of Park Hill, maybe some
parts of Chicago, you know, orthings that I see on TV, but
I've never seen slums and it wasa big difference.
You could tell even just thestores around that were on the
bad side of the neighborhood.
It was liquor stores, it waslandfills that I seen.
(25:43):
I seen a wood shop, I seencigarette stores, vape stores,
but as we were on the nicer side, I seen grocery stores.
I seen a Sprouts you know whatI mean and so I noticed that the
stores, even to this day,sprouts.
You know what I mean.
And so I noticed that thestores, even to this day, are
still the same.
On the nicer side there's thenicer stores and as you got, as
we started to go where thebombings were happening, there
(26:05):
weren't stores except for liquorstores, and those liquor stores
were run down.
Holes in the wall in the liquorstore, the businesses were
falling apart.
It's as if they never evenattempted to renovate those
areas, they never attempted tobuild it back, as if we're just
going to leave it as a memorialfor what we did to these people,
and they have no interest inbuilding that sector up.
(26:26):
And, as Clay explained to us,hey look, there's sections to
Birmingham and certain sectionsthey just push to the side.
And we went through thosesectors and sections and you
could tell that the plumbinghadn't been done.
You could tell that the houseswere ridden and infested, what
you could tell from the outside,that there were some serious
things going on on the insideand which is a shame, because it
(26:49):
looked the exact same 50 yearsago.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
60 years ago, yeah, wow, was there any one thing
before we jump into now, movinginto selma, was there any one
thing that clay might have saidoh, before we go, that we're
going to go to that night withjanice um kelsey, but what was
there anything that clay saidthat you just put into your mind
, that you remember, that youmight want to share?
Speaker 1 (27:14):
yeah, I remember him telling me about the person who
I can't remember the name of theperson, but who performed at
that theater, got beat up, left,cleaned up and because they
cared so much, they came backand finished their performance.
And that to me, as I want toquit things in life, it's taught
me I can push forward.
(27:35):
If this man back in the 60s canget beat up on stage, bloodied
mouth and need to go to thehospital, go and get checked out
and then go back and finish theshow, I can go finish this last
four hours at work.
I can go do this.
You know what I mean, and so itreally.
That stuck to me, not that hesaid it, but what happened and
(27:56):
how he put it.
It just prefaced it to.
You know, there's no need to beweak in life, you know.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Yeah, I think it was Nat King Cole too.
So I remember the.
You know, it was a performerwho was coming in to perform and
still, it didn't matter howfamous he was, it didn't matter
how many records he had, he wasstill a person who would give
you so so then that night we gosee a lady named Janice Kelsey
who happened to be one of thechildren that was marching.
(28:23):
The adults decided during thismarch that they weren't going to
march because they might not beable to go back to work or they
got beat up and they wouldn'tbe able to take care of their
family.
So Janice decided that as a Ithink she was a junior or senior
in high school that I'm goingto go march, I'm going to go
through this.
I'm willing to get arrested andnot be able to participate in
(28:43):
life.
And so she explained what itwas like.
What was that?
You know, seeing somebody whowas actually there and talking
to you, live up front.
What are some things you mighthave gotten out of that?
Speaker 1 (28:53):
What are some things you might have gotten out of
that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, just the wayshe explained it.
Sitting on the floor in thatcell with, you know, 60 or 70
other of her peers and her mixedfeelings of am I going to get
out of here?
But yes, we did it.
We stood on our tentoes andstood for our rights.
That stuck out to me, thedebate that she had in her mind
(29:15):
of whether she was going to doit or not.
I think that she took courage.
She didn't find it, it wasn'tgiven to her.
She took the courage and,knowing that she would get in
trouble with her parents she wasworried about getting in
trouble with her parents as wellas getting, you know, getting
beat by the police.
But she decided that she wasgoing to go and she went, and
(29:36):
the fact that she got arrestedand had to sit on that floor and
she said she sat there on thatfloor, it was cold, there was no
seats and they just stuck themin there and they kept piling
and piling them in, it broughtme back to that movie, amistad,
where they had them in the cagesand they were packed in.
And that's what was goingthrough my mind was the Amistad
scene on the boat where he saysgive us us free, give us us free
(29:59):
.
And he wants to be free and allof his people are caged in the
bottom and it just for me.
It let me know that this hasbeen going on for not only for a
long time, but very recently.
Me, growing up, I'm thinkingthis is hundreds and hundreds of
years ago, how they put it inour history books and how they
explain it to us.
(30:19):
They don't explain it to usthat we're only two generations
removed from this stuff.
It's just two generations.
Yeah, you know.
And so I had a hard timelooking at white people, the
same afterwards with this, andluckily we had good
conversations.
(30:40):
I'm sure we'll get to thoseconversations, but we had good
conversations with the 18 Blacksand the eight or nine whites
that we had.
We had good conversations andwere able to express our
feelings.
But yeah, it was trying.
It was a trying experience,okay.
So, janice, Kelsey.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
She talks to us.
You know, I think the one thingthat I remember so plainly is
Janice Kelsey's brother and mebeing a track person, and he
said I was an athlete and I wasable to outrun the fire hoses,
(31:20):
fire hoses.
That's the thing as a kid, thatmy job, my goal, my memory is
outrunning somebody trying toroll me down the street with a
fire hose and I was able toescape it.
Just, oh my gosh, the fact that, yeah, and it seemed like.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
It seemed like he had more loving memories of it.
You know where hers were moretraumatic.
His seemed to be we won.
He felt like they won thoseexperiences, you know, and so I
could appreciate him feelinglike they had a got a victory
out of it.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Oh gosh, yes, I hear you there.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
The so then.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
so we leave that night or the next morning, we go
to Selma and you know we hadsome conversations and we did
some more stuff with Jeff andyou know, maybe we can come back
to some of that after, as wejust learned to kind of be with
ourselves and reconciliation injustice.
But then we head over to Selmabecause we're going to go across
the Pettus Bridge.
(32:10):
The main place in the moviethat's called Selma is this
bridge.
That Bloody Sunday happenedwith.
This is where I think a turningpoint in our whole civil rights
movement.
We think of John Lewis leadinga march that's a cross that is
eventually going to go toMontgomery, and so we're walking
(32:31):
and we're in the evening andwe're going to walk from.
You know we're going over thePettus Bridge and then we're
going to go to the AME Churchwhere they started the march.
What were you feeling at thispoint when just the we're in a
whole nother city but it's stillAlabama?
and now, you've seen the moviebefore and now you're standing
in the same place that themovie's based on.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
I went under the bridge.
Oh, you did, I went under thebridge.
When you go, when you go overthe bridge, you can turn right.
Once you get over on the end,you can turn right and go
underneath, and underneath iswhere it hit me.
Um, that's the first time I hadcried while I was in, when I
was in Alabama.
I was on the bridge, under thebridge, and I was by myself, and
(33:15):
I just could feel like, as Iwas on the bridge, under the
bridge, and I was by myself, andI just could feel like, as I
was watching the water go underthe bridge, I'm just watching
the water go, and I began topicture just the bodies that
were dumped in that bridge andwho might have fell over.
And I looked up and I gazed atthe bridge and I don't know what
type of weapons they had, but Ibegan to imagine how it
(33:38):
happened, because I'm there, andso I walked up the bridge down
underneath, and then I walkedback, and then I walked back
across the bridge because Iwanted to experience it twice,
and each time I just began tolook and as I'm looking at the
ground, I'm looking at thecracks and there's the grass
(33:59):
growing through the cracks, andusually when grass grows through
cracks, it's because there'ssome type of fertilizer.
And I'm thinking in my head wasit the bodies that died there?
Was it all this death that madethis like this?
Everything was overgrown ingreen and we'd seen it at night,
(34:20):
but I had my light and I had my, and you could see the green
that was growing througheverything, and you could see
the brown, the brownness on thebank, and usually that's
bloodbath.
Right now, I'm thinking in myhead now can't be stains from 50
, 60, 70 years, but maybe it is.
And so, as I'm, as I'm lookingat it, I'm thinking in my head
(34:40):
no, it can't be stains from 50,60, 70 years, but maybe it is.
And so, as I'm, as I'm lookingat it, I'm just I'm thinking,
wow, people really sacrificetheir lives to stand up for what
they believe.
And then I begin to questionwhat have I stood up for?
What have I put my life on theline for?
Is it my children?
And I realized that I havenever put my life on the line
like they have.
I never would want to.
(35:02):
I know that they sacrificed sothat I wouldn't have to, but
then I began to think of my owncourage, and would I have
courage if I had to?
It began to make meself-regulate and self-check
myself on that bridge as a blackman of color.
And am I doing enough for myrace?
Am I doing enough for my people?
Because look what my peoplewent through here on this bridge
(35:24):
.
You can see Pettus Bridge.
It's right there, it's stillthere, the name itself, but it's
still Pettus Bridge and it'severywhere.
There's Pettus Church, there'sPettus, this.
And as we learned about thename Pettus and how horrible
(35:45):
this name is, I began to looklike, well, he still has a
memory here.
The people here still believethat this is his land.
When there's wrongdoing, youtry to right the wrongdoing, and
by changing the name would beto right the wrongdoing, and I
understand that if you change it, maybe we're erasing history.
But the fact that it's stillbeing honored by the Pettus
(36:08):
Church next to it, the PettusBridge, the Pettus River, pettus
Street, pettis Avenue,everything was Pettis right
there, and it just baffled me toknow that a city, a state,
would still recognize all ofthese things for this one man
that committed such, you know,there's such atrocity in that
(36:29):
name.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
So, yeah, so you know we walk from the bridge over to
the AME Church.
So you know we walk from thebridge over to the AME church
and I know your family is, youknow pastors and you know have
the churches in the city.
Did that have any significancefor you, sitting on the steps of
that church as it went through?
Maybe kind of just share just alittle bit about that.
Speaker 1 (36:52):
You know, sitting on the steps, I made sure I took a
picture.
It felt like a piece of me as Isat on that.
I sat there and I just said,okay, this is where it went down
and I am here, and I felt onewith my own culture.
It really gave me a feeling ofpeace and I know that that
(37:16):
sounds weird because there wasso much to unpack there, but I
felt at peace, knowing that,okay, now I can do something.
Now I actually have the driveto go out and do something about
this, whatever it might be.
But it gave me peace that, ok,I'm here, this is where Martin
(37:37):
Luther King was at.
This is the church, this is asyou look around, this is where
this is everything.
And I'd only seen pictures, I'donly seen in.
I had a calendar that had allthese things in it, but it
wasn't the same as sitting onthe on the steps.
(37:57):
It wasn't the same as feelingthat and saying, hey, I am now a
part of history.
I realized that this is where Icome from.
You know, not necessarily me,but my people.
This was a staple of how wemoved forward, because when that
happened, a lot of thingstranspired.
Afterwards, a lot of felt theneed to move and the need to
(38:19):
mourn, and so yeah, for me itwas just the same feeling that I
had felt the entire trip of wowI I am completely clueless as
to what the South really was.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
The South really was.
I'm sorry someone might thinkI'm on mute.
Thank you for sharing that.
That was, oh my gosh.
Yeah, so we leave Selma andthen we end up going to why you
came on the trip.
Right, we have this museum, andon the way to the museum
(38:53):
there's a gentleman Dr Mack wasone of the greatest historians
of that time that kind of talkedto us a little bit about what
we were going to see when we gotto the museum.
Is there anything from thatdrive?
Because not only are welistening to Dr Mack tell us
about history, we are drivingdown the same road in which they
walked from Selma to Montgomeryon that march road in which
(39:18):
they walk from Selma toMontgomery on that march, and so
we're seeing this whole thingunfold before we ever get to the
museum and hearing some historybehind it.
Is there anything from thatconversation that you could?
Speaker 1 (39:24):
talk about.
So when Scott had it on histhing and it kept going in and
out, so I wasn't able to hear DrMack, I wasn't able to hear him
talk.
It kept going in and out.
I wasn't able to hear dr mac.
I wasn't able to hear him talk.
It kept going in and out, sounfortunately I wasn't quite
sure what he was saying.
Um, so I, I, yeah, I, I don'tknow okay.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
So what's good is we have that recorded and so I'll
make sure you go back and I'llsend it to you so you can listen
to that whole uh talk while wewere going.
So I didn't realize that someof you guys missed that.
But yeah, it's all recorded andyou'll be able to hear the
whole thing.
So we get to the museum and youknow it's a nice building, it
is a good place where you'rekind of not sure, because this
(40:04):
is why you came tell us aboutthe museum and your experience
at the museum the whole day thatwe're spending there.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
I was excited as we walked in.
I didn't know I knew that thisis where I was excited as we
walked in.
I didn't know I knew that thisis where I was coming to look
for the names I was given right.
And so I go in there and I'mthinking that Edward and Dick
Mays are two people that hadsome big contribution that you
(40:32):
know.
I'm like, okay, we're going tofind out that we're royalty or
something you know.
And I'm thinking because it'sBlack History Museum.
As I walked in, it was an eeriefeeling the music.
When you walk into the museumthey have the boats.
It's this water, it's thisscreen and this water and all
(40:54):
you hear is the water and yousee the boat come in and it's
coming and it's a, it's a 3dscreen, so it's real.
You feel like you're in in thescreen and you hear this guy
come on and he's talking andhe's telling you about what's
about to happen and it's tellingyou the expectations of the
slaves as they're coming closerto the shore.
(41:16):
And then they get to the shoreand you can go left or you can
go right, but it goes into thisnext room and I remember to the
left there was a young ladysinging a hymn behind this cage
and then Wade in the water.
Wade in the water and she'ssinging and she begins to talk
(41:37):
to you about how she misses hermother and she misses her father
and she doesn't know where theywent and she's not sure where
she's at or where she came from.
And she's on her fourth stopand she just wants to go back
home.
And she's telling you the storyand how she's praying to God.
And then you look to the leftand on the left is another cage
(41:58):
with a man and he's determinedto get back to his wife and his
kids and he's been captured.
And you can keep going.
There's more and more people,and that's the first, like the
first feeling, and you knowthat's just the entryway.
And then there's differentsections, there's modern day
slavery, there's the segregation, and then there's the spot that
(42:25):
I went first, where I was ableto see Ed and Dick and come to
find out that my family, ed andDick, were not royalty.
They were shot in 1901.
They were accused Ed wasaccused of talking to a white
woman and Dick was accused ofkilling a cop.
Come to find out, a guy namedEarl Dawson was the actual
(42:46):
killer and the actual personthat touched the young lady.
My family was lynched in Selma,right there, and there was a
jar that they had dug up fromthe actual soil and in this jar
(43:07):
they had put the soil over someof the remains where my family
had died, where Ed and Dick werelynched and shot.
Family had died.
Where Ed and Dick were lynchedand shot.
The crazy thing about Ed andDick were not only were they
shot and lynched, they were cutinto thousands of just thousands
of cuts after they were dead.
And I was able to read thisstory in the museum and,
(43:34):
thankfully, the lady that workedthere she told me, she said hey
, you found your family.
She allowed me to take somepictures and so I got a picture
of the full story and picturesof the jar and pictures of me
with the jar.
And that was the most shatteringthing for me, knowing that my
(43:56):
bloodline, specifically, was apart of slavery, um, knowing
that it was a part ofsegregation, knowing that it was
a part of of this piece ofAmerica, this piece of history.
Uh, because before I didn'tknow and because I didn't know,
I I could say yeah, yeah, yeah,we all, as Black people,
(44:17):
experienced this and we all youknow.
But once there was a nameEdward and a name Dick attached
to it and it was verifiable andthey had the records and I was
able to order the records andthey, you know, go right up to
my father, thomas Mays, and thentwo generations before Dick and
(44:39):
Edward back into slavery.
It shows the whole lineage andit was bone chilling and it was
sad.
It was sad to know that mygreat, great, great great
grandfather was sold, actuallyfrom Spain and Mays the name
Mays is a Spaniard name fromSpain, and they sold them from
(45:02):
Africa, brought into Spain andthen sold from Spain over into
Louisiana, then up into Alabamaand that's where Dick and Edward
were hung, shot and stabbed.
And so there was a whole linethat I had no idea about, my
roots I had no idea about.
And I was able to find my rootsand be grateful and understand.
(45:25):
Okay, now I know.
Now I know the anger that mygrandmother and grandfather had.
You know.
Now I know when they told mehey, you can talk to him, but
don't try.
I understand what they weresaying.
You know I understand what theysaid.
I always be careful, keep, staybuttoned up around them.
I understand now, um to whereback then I didn't.
(45:48):
I, before this trip, not evenback then before, literally
before this trip, I didn'tnecessarily agree with grandma,
and now I understand and agreewith how she felt, you know, and
yeah, yeah, so that experiencethey have this room, that it's
(46:10):
like a calming room, areflection room, and I remember
I just went and sat in thatcrowd for about 20 minutes after
realizing that it was.
You know, that my family hadbeen through this.
But then, as I looked up,there's just all these pictures
of all the amazing Black peopleand people of color that have
done the utmost amazing things.
(46:31):
And it brought pride to mebecause I seen the different
inventions and the differentpeople and the different
creators and the different bookwriters and storytellers and all
these amazing things of Blackpeople that we've built in that
room, aside from the rest of themuseum, was a part of peace and
(46:53):
of love and showing that, hey,we are somebody and we are an
amazing culture and this is whatwe've done as a culture.
These are the amazing thingsthat we've invented and built,
and so that brought me a littlebit of peace, but I was
physically drained.
I remember as I walked out thosedoors the energy was gone from
(47:17):
me, I felt enlightened, I feltlike I had gained so much
knowledge.
But I was drained.
I was angry.
I wasn't angry because I wastoo drained to be angry, I was
just tired.
I was very tired, yeah, butthankful, I was just tired.
(47:38):
I was very tired, yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
But thankful.
I was thankful for theopportunity to go there and be
part of it and learn and grow,and that kind of brings us back.
I mean, we had a greatconversation afterwards where we
got in a room and kind of wereable to let some of that out.
But also one of the things thatyou said is it said this is
what I need to do.
You know whether it was on.
(48:04):
You know, as you're looking atthe Pettus Bridge or you're in
the museum, now you're thinkingabout what is my responsibility.
So we come back home and whathas you know as a result of the
trip?
What have you been doing?
Speaker 1 (48:20):
or thinking about, or experiencing and wanting to
change.
As you now know, I've had thisexperience, but now what?
Yeah, so the youth.
Um, I came back with anunderstanding that we have been
taught the wrong things all ofour lives, and the truth that I
thought was the truth isn't thetruth.
And I came back to Denver,colorado, fully expecting to
(48:42):
transfer my experience into theyouth coming up from ages eight
to 18, right, and so what I'vebeen doing is speaking about
this in my classes.
I'm a trauma therapy specialistand I also work at the Boys and
Girls Club, and so I've beenspeaking avidly about this
experience and showing peoplehey, this is what I went through
(49:02):
, this is what I learned, andthis is where you can get this
information, and these arethings that you need to learn
about your culture, but alsocreating a space for these kids
to learn.
At my church I know you've beento the church a lot of those
(49:24):
rooms that we had did get soldup by the apprenticeship, but I
was able to save four rooms formyself, and one of the rooms
that I'm turning into isspecifically for
African-American studies, toshow our youth where they can
come and learn about where we'refrom, learn how they got here.
I essentially want toreincarnate what I've seen at
(49:47):
the museum in a smaller form,inside of this.
Now, also in there, I want tohave a place for kids to come in
and have fun.
Now, also in there, I want tohave a place for kids to come in
and have fun.
So I've ordered theseinformational gaming tables.
I tell you, brian, these thingsare amazing.
They're these touchscreentables where I can install
certain programs, historyprograms on them, and then
(50:10):
they're innovative where thekids can touch them, learn and
learn about their history.
And so I'm having a gaming roomand one.
The other room is all VR.
It's going to be VR, where I'mdoing virtual learning.
And then the fourth room is amedia room where I want to be
able to transfer the children'smessage to the children.
So I want to have similar howyou have your room.
I want it ran by the children,where the children are speaking
(50:32):
to the children.
So I want to have similar howyou have your room.
I want it ran by the children,where the children are speaking
to the children and it's theirown message.
And so, yeah, originally Iwanted to.
As you came to the meeting atthe church, I wanted to help the
homeless and I think I willlead up to that.
(50:52):
But I think the starting pointis here and because I have the
things that can do that, so,yeah, I came back and
immediately got got to work andand having people come check out
the spaces and also, as I'mgoing to different schools and
asking if I can come and speakto their children about it, and
I think the next step is gettingyoung adults and children there
(51:16):
, and I noticed in some of ourconversations we said that there
has to be some type of buffer.
They can't just go straight andsee what I've seen at the age
of eight.
That might be detrimental tothem.
If we're bringing people thereand if there is a room and a
space that I have where they canlearn about Journey to Freedom
(51:39):
and then go on the experienceand witness it there, there is a
buffer here and then they cango there.
And I think that can be allages and all inclusive, and so I
(52:01):
think getting people out thereto see it and experience that.
Because, as much as I said, Ihad a somber feeling.
It was an amazing somberfeeling.
It was a feeling that I neededto have.
It was a feeling that I wantedto have.
I wanted to feel my emotions,and so, and I did, and so I want
to recreate that, and that'swhat I've been doing since I've
been back these last hundreddays.
Wow.
Speaker 2 (52:11):
Well, and I just think you know and maybe you're
wrong, but you know the childrenof Aurora are going to benefit
from these visions and whatGod's placed in your heart.
Does this happen?
Or maybe it does, and it justtakes longer without some of the
(52:31):
things that you learned on thetrip.
Speaker 1 (52:32):
No, I don't think it.
I don't think it happens.
Maybe not for me.
I don't think I had the courageto do it.
I was very timid and had someself-doubt.
While I'm very courageous onthe outside, on the inside I can
be timid and it gave me courage.
I was able to take courage fromthere and I don't think I would
(52:53):
have gotten it from anywhereelse.
I don't think any podcast Ilistened to.
I don't think any show I go toany you know motivational
speaker I go to see live canreplicate what I got to
experience in Alabama, inBirmingham, in Selma, in class,
because the classes that we hadwere essential, because they
(53:16):
gave context and they put aparameter around what I was
experiencing and it allowed theclasses allowed me to unpack my
feelings.
Had I not been able to do that,I don't know if I would have
came back with the same love forpeople that want to go.
So I think the experience plusthe classes was amazing.
(53:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (53:39):
We think about relationship and how important
relationship is.
Do you believe that you createdsome of those relationships for
life as a result of the folksin the cohort of people that we?
Speaker 1 (53:51):
went through it with yeah, yeah, amazingly enough I
have you know, I've I'veactually been been to your house
and and you've been to mychurch and I've been able to
same with Scott and even Steveas I've gone through the classes
on Mighty Networks.
There's been so many people.
The apprenticeship is in in ourbuilding now and that's because
(54:14):
I was working with Scott and acouple other guys and so, yeah,
I think the trip itself hasgiven me lifelong relationships,
business relationships andfriendships.
Speaker 2 (54:25):
So, yeah, oh, that's cool.
Well, what I can tell is itseems like there's a, you know,
when you think of a caterpillaror whatever, that goes into a
shell and then it gets to becomea butterfly, your name
continues to come up inconversations.
And, you know, can we get Joshinvolved in this?
Or how can you know, would Joshlike to do this?
(54:47):
You know, even with whetherit's Young Life or you know
other folks that are just havingthese conversations with me,
folks that are just having theseconversations with me, and I'm
just so thankful that you wereable that God put it in your
dad's heart to say this issomething Josh needs to do, and
so I can't wait to do it again.
I can't wait to have you knowanother trip where we're going
(55:08):
to take more people and we'regoing to get you know more folks
to be there and come.
Is there anything?
You know I've asked a lot ofquestions and been selfish on my
side.
Is there anything that you wantto make sure you add?
Like I would love for you totell people how to get ahold to
be part of some of the thingsyou're doing.
Speaker 1 (55:25):
But yeah, what didn't I cover that you wanted to make
sure that was said in this, inthis yeah, I know, in the in the
preview, we were going to talkabout the identity, trust, faith
and health.
The one thing I wanted to addto that is love as a pillar.
I just saw that and, as far asme, you guys will see me around.
(55:45):
You guys can follow me onInstagram.
That's where I post a lot of myvideos with the youth I work
with and, uh, my handle is goodunderscore night 87 as G O O D.
Underscore K N, I, g H, t, likethe knight in shining armor 87.
Um, and you can find a lot ofwhat I'm doing at the church on
(56:06):
on my Instagram and, um,everything that I'm doing in the
community as far as the youngmen that I work with, uh, I do a
segment called Take Five and Ido five minutes, just a five
minute interview with youngyouth around the city and what
they're doing, from buildingrobots to trying out for youth
leagues, all sorts of thingsthat they're doing.
So you can check that all outon my Instagram.
Speaker 2 (56:27):
Yeah, oh, my gosh, thank you for doing that, thank
you for being part of the showtoday, thank you for this whole
thing.
I mean for those of you whowould like to go on it.
You know you're watching thisand go, man, I would love to go
there.
Contact us, you know, click thelinks below.
We will get you there.
The goal that I have, and forthe program, is that we get to
(56:52):
change the world based onknowing where we came from.
And if we know where we camefrom, we have the ability to
know where we're going.
You know, god put us on thisearth for all these different
purposes, and if we can findthose purposes through knowing
who we are, better the world'sgoing to be a better place, and
so we want to keep track of youand what you're doing, and you
(57:12):
know.
So you know this is probablyone of many more conversations
that you and I will get to haveand to have in a forum that
other people will be able to seeand watch and be able to
experience.
And so you know we willcontinue to pray for your family
, we'll continue to make aprogram for you and the things
that you're doing to make ourcommunity a better place, and so
(57:36):
thank you again for being partof it.
If you have not subscribed yetfor this podcast, I'm asking you
to go ahead and do that now.
I'm saying this is my call toaction is learn from those who
have come before you.
Learn from those so many greatefforts we're going to do this
series.
Josh is just one of many thatwent on this trip, so we'll hear
(57:57):
from different perspectives.
I did Jason Tucker just theother day, and so we've got him,
and so he came with hisperspective and how the trip
affected him, and we'll geteverybody that's on the trip.
Eventually.
I talked to Scott a little bit,so we'll just continue down the
series, and so thank you guysfor being on.
(58:18):
Don't forget you were God'sgreatest gift.
He loves you, if you allow himto, and so we want to make sure
that we see you guys on the nextone.
Have just this incredible,amazing day today, and we'll
look forward to talking to yousoon.
Speaker 1 (58:31):
See you guys, yes, sir.
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