June 13, 2025 • 60 mins
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Join Isaiah Thomas, a young Black man from Colorado, as he navigates Alabama’s civil rights history, from Birmingham’s bombed churches to Selma’s iconic bridge.
His raw reflections on fear, hope, and purpose in 2025 will move you to rethink your own path. This story sparks inspiration to engage with history and build a better future.
Walking where history happened changes you. That's the revelation at the heart of this powerful conversation with Isaiah Thomas, a Colorado youth minister who recently joined a civil rights pilgrimage through Alabama's landmarks of struggle and resistance.
The journey—spanning Birmingham, Selma, and Montgomery—began with mixed emotions. "The excitement to go somewhere I've never been before," Isaiah reflects, "but also apprehension because of the state of the world and racial relations that aren't necessarily safe for everyone." This tension between curiosity and caution frames an experience that would ultimately transform his perspective on American history and his own purpose.
What makes this episode particularly compelling is the contrast between learning about civil rights in classrooms versus standing in the places where blood was shed for freedom. As Isaiah stands on the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma, he grapples with profound questions: "Did Dr. King know what was on the other side? Did they know the value of their lives walking across this bridge?" These moments of connection—touching the past instead of merely reading about it—bring history vividly alive.
The emotional core of the conversation emerges when Isaiah describes visiting the Equal Justice Initiative Museum, contrasting it with Washington DC's National Museum of African American History and Culture. While the latter celebrates Black achievement alongside acknowledging struggle, the EJI Museum confronts visitors with the full weight of America's racial violence. When a fellow traveler discovers his own family name among lynching victims, the past collapses into the present with stunning force.
Perhaps most thought-provoking is Isaiah's reflection on returning home: "I came home and never felt more like a slave—just working, continuing working the same way these people fought for our lives." The trip sparked a spiritual and vocational reckoning that challenges listeners to consider what they're willing to fight for beyond daily survival.
Ready to engage more deeply with stories that matter? Subscribe to the Journey to Freedom podcast and join us as we explore the intersections of faith, justice, and human dignity in our complicated world.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The excitement to go somewhere I've never been before
.
I think it's important to goplaces you've never been.
So Alabama and the South as awhole is somewhere I've never
really visited.
But I think on the other sideof it was a little bit of
apprehension, just because ofthe state of the world and kind
of the racial relations thatwe're having that aren't
necessarily safe for everyone.
The Ku Klux Klan is stillexisting, those are all right.
There's a lot going on in theworld.
(00:21):
And so I was like do I reallywant to go?
Do I really want to put myselfin a position, you know, like
you know, I hadn't evenresearched sundown towns enough
to know like the part of town weshould be on, kind of those
things.
But putting all like angst andfear to the side, I just really
wanted to have an opportunityjust to learn about the city,
learn about alabama.
I had known some folks who werefrom there and so I just wanted
to kind of get the full scopeof what Alabama had to offer and
(00:44):
what was going on there.
And you always hear weirdstories about the South, about
how it's different and it's likea little different country
within itself.
So I just really wanted toexplore the history of the world
and what had happened there andwhat has perspired from, you
know, martin Luther King, to thecivil rights movement, to all
those things.
It's important just to kind ofbe where they were All right.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Welcome to just another wonderful edition of the
Journey to Freedom podcast, andthis is our Alabama edition.
And so, for those of you whohave been kind of following
along with our trip to Alabamaand what we did and how we were
able to go there, we combinedthe trip with an organization
called Issachar, which is theleadership development in urban
(01:44):
Denver, and so able to go outand really see what leaders are
doing in our community, and sopart of the trip was combining
it with folks from Issachar andfolks that we met from Journey
to Freedom.
Thank you to Grand Design forhelping us with sponsoring some
(02:04):
of the folks to be able to getout there.
But just thinking about thetrip and thinking about what we
do and today I get to talk to MrIsaiah Thomas, and Isaiah is a
native here in Colorado and hasjust been doing some phenomenal
things and was able to go on thetrip, and so I was wanting to
do a podcast with Isaiah anyways, and so this is a great
(02:26):
opportunity just to have him tobe able to talk.
We've become friends, we'vebeen able to just talk about a
whole lot of things thathappened in our lives, and this
trip just happened to intersect,and so we went on.
You know, in the end of January, first of February, and so we
went on.
You know, in the end of January, first of February, there were
27 of us that ventured over tostarting out in Birmingham, then
(02:51):
Selma, then Montgomery, and itwas really.
We were talking aboutreconciliation and justice and
what justice means, as well asyou know, civil rights and what
does it mean in 2025, differentthan 2024?
And you know, yesterday, oryou'll see on the podcast, if
you look up the podcast fromKellen, you'll see somebody that
(03:11):
you know is getting his lifegoing and has his businesses and
that kind of stuff.
And then you know there's folksthat are.
You know, we had Josh, who's inhis early 30s, and now we have,
you know, isaiah, who's, youknow's some of the younger
generation, who wasn't alive.
I can't really say I was aliveIn the 1960s, I was born in 65,
(03:34):
but I can't say I can rememberfrom 65 to 70 and everything
that went on, because I wasthree years old.
I remember TV shows.
I think our memory plays somany tricks on us.
Isaiah, like I remember becauseI saw it on TV.
But did I see it on TV in 1967?
Or did.
I see it on TV in 1987 when itwas a repeat of the TV show
(03:56):
Right.
Then I'm like, oh, I rememberthat.
No, you don't.
I didn't remember hardlyanything when I was a three, or
maybe I do, you know, becauseour brains just play this.
But I really want to talk about,you know, the trip and where we
want to go and kind of the.
You know what led up to itbefore we actually jump into the
trip.
You know, I say, can you justtell us your story?
(04:18):
Tell us your or I guess theorigin story is what we call it
now and you know what was lifelike when you grew up.
I know you were a pastor's kidand you know maybe that's a
little bit different than otherfolks in schools that you went
to and all those wonderfulthings.
And maybe we'll start out thereand then we'll just kind of
chop it up after that.
So thank you for being on theshow, thank you for willing to
share with us all thesewonderful things that are going
(04:40):
on, not only in your life nowbut as a result of the trip.
So the floor is yours.
Can't wait to hear what you got.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you for this opportunity.
Yeah, as you were saying, I'm apassionate kid.
I grew up in Colorado, mostlyin Aurora.
I can't say I'm a Denver native.
Didn't really grow up in Denverlike that, mostly the east side
of Aurora.
Did go to George WashingtonHigh School.
Yeah, grew up in a Blackhousehold.
(05:07):
Both my parents are Black, andso just kind of the dynamic of
just pastoral living,Christianity, living like church
every day, almost every day ofthe week, to also just figuring
things out.
Colorado is a different placeand so, yeah, I grew up with
like a village, not just withinthe dynamic of church, but just
(05:31):
my family.
A lot of my grandparents helpedraise me.
You know watching me when myparents were at work.
I have an older sister andyounger brother.
I'm the middle child.
My brother is 17.
He'll graduate high school hereshortly, probably in the next
year or so.
And then my sister is 14 monthsolder than me and she lives in
Oklahoma and she's been theresince 2015.
And so she's just, yeah, livingher life, got married, all the
(05:56):
things and I'm figuring out mylife here, been doing mostly
youth ministry for the lastdecade since leaving high school
.
I originally wanted to go tothe military.
That didn't pan out the way Ithought it was going to,
unfortunately just because of amedical condition.
And so I've just really beentrusting God with my life and
(06:17):
just really been figuring outday by day did some staying with
Young Life, youth for Christ,working kind of across the city
kind of a Swiss army knife?
When it comes to things, I'mkind of plugged in a little to a
lot of places, whether it'schurch or community or outreach
or just you know anywhere I canplug myself into.
But yeah, man, I just I'm justtrying to take it day by day,
(06:42):
moment by moment.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
I love it.
I love it.
The dynamic you said you wentto George Washington High School
.
Is that what you said I did?
Okay, so you went to GW, and sothat's in the era when I was
growing up.
It was a predominantly blackhigh school.
I don't know what the dynamicswere when you went in there, and
so did you have just kind ofgetting the lay of the land?
(07:05):
Did you have a lot of, maybe,black history or talk about the
things that had happened?
Did you have some, you know,knowledge of what Alabama was
probably going to look like?
You know, what I was thinkingyesterday was, as I was, you
know, doing a podcast.
I can't remember from 1970 whenI started elementary school
because we lived in Park Hilland then my dad got an
(07:28):
affirmative action job and so wemoved out to like I-25 and
Arapahoe Road and so I went toCherry Creek High School, so
there were like 35 folks ofcolor in the whole 3,000, 3,500
school that I went to.
I thought it was a bad, it wasjust, it was what it is, but we
didn't learn anything aboutBlack history.
In fact, from my 1970, throughmy PhD, through my doctorate, I
(07:54):
don't remember ever having aBlack teacher, I've had some
Black administrators and thatkind of stuff, and so you know
that just everything we got wasfrom relatives and from people.
And so you know that justeverything we got was from
relatives and from people, andso I had a viewpoint of the
South probably different thanmaybe you had, and so maybe kind
of walk us through or talkabout, you know, maybe some of
the things you might havelearned just by growing up in
(08:14):
the community you did.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I have a completelydifferent kind of growing up.
So the first school I went towas a was a black private school
in Parqueo, and so I had allblack teachers for my first
couple of years of school, fromkindergarten to second grade
basically, and so we learned,you know, the preamble, we
(08:38):
learned the black nationalanthem, we learned kind of black
history, numbers one through ahundred in Spanish and in
English, so we learned just likekind of like just what it meant
to be American really.
And then a culture shock ofmoving to Castle Rock and living
there for a couple of years aswell and it being kind of the
(08:58):
complete different.
We didn't really learn anythingabout black history.
We didn't really learn anythingabout.
We learned about history.
We learned about how to playchess, just kind of like a whole
different dynamic.
So everyone was in this entireschool was required to learn how
to play chess, and so it's justtwo different dichotomies of
like a Black excellent andhonoring who you are and
(09:18):
learning kind of the facets oflife of both different cultures
to kind of just a whiteprivileged community, because we
lived in a community where wewere me and my sister were maybe
two out of five or six peopleof color in Castle Rock and this
is before it kind of gotdeveloped too.
So it's completely differentnow.
(09:39):
But Black history was kind ofembedded in who we were from
early into our childhood.
On.
From there I've had blackteachers far and few since then.
So I think when I moved into,we moved back to Denver, slash,
Aurora, like the Lowry area wehad a plethora of students that
have different colors, but maybeone or two different black
(10:03):
people of color or people ofcolor in elementary school and
then went to a private middleschool for a couple years and
they had different people ofcolor there but they were more
Middle Eastern.
So that was different dynamic.
And then my last year I went toPrairie and that I had again a
(10:23):
plethora of different teachersof different colors.
And then in high school I had,funny enough, just a white
person teaching Black history,but she loved people of color
and she was really passionateabout it.
It just was an awkward dynamic,because you're telling my
history to me but you don't looklike me.
So that was a weird dynamic.
(10:45):
But she but she was a very goodperson and I love Miss Rosen,
so shout out to Miss Rosen.
She was just a dynamic teacherand and she taught African
American history.
And then I had a black Englishteacher and I think that.
And then I had a black scienceteacher, but he he was African,
I don't know what part of Africa.
(11:06):
So I've seen and known of kindof the history of our country,
but not enough to be able totouch it, because we're just so
far away, like Colorado andAlabama felt so far away.
I was like, oh, that's in thepast.
You know, I have no realconnection to it.
Most of my family is fromMississippi in terms of our
history, but I'd never been.
My great grandmother had passedaway in 2014.
(11:28):
So the discussions aboutsharecropping or, you know,
being light skinned, or havingyou know slave owners, you know
family members, or being slaves,it just wasn't a conversation I
was able to have.
Also, maybe not even of age toreally understand it, but my
(11:52):
grandma and her siblings she has10 of them they all have an
understanding of what thatlifestyle was.
They grew up in Kansas and theyknew about the Mississippi
heritage and they had a goodfather and a mother who was
embedded in who they were.
So I had a good scope ofAlabama, but not necessarily
hands-on connection to it myself.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Cool.
So we're getting ready to go onthe trip and you know, scott,
you know, and everybody who'spart of it is saying okay,
isaiah, you want to go on thistrip.
What were your initial thoughts?
It's like I'm in, I can't waitto find out more.
I mean, the fact that you evenhad a class called African
American history while you werein high school is huge, right,
because it just isn't taughteverywhere, and so is it.
(12:32):
I wanted to see some of thethings I'm learning, or you just
was like I'm in because of thepeople that were you were able
to go with.
What was your initial thought?
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Mix of both, I think.
Think excitement to gosomewhere I've never been before
.
I think it's important to goplaces you've never been.
So Alabama and the South as awhole is somewhere I've never
really visited.
The people as well like, scottis a wonderful person and the
team at Issachar are just goodpeople.
But I think on the other side ofit was a little bit of
apprehension, just because ofthe state of the world and kind
(13:05):
of the racial relations thatwe're having that aren't
necessarily safe for everyone,let alone, you know, again, the
Ku Klux Klan is still existing.
There's a lot going on in theworld.
And so I was like do I reallywant to go go?
Do I really want to put myselfin a position?
(13:25):
You know?
So, like you know, I hadn'teven researched sundown towns
enough to know, like, what partof town we should be on, kind of
those things.
But uh, putting all like angstand fear to the side, I just
really wanted to have anopportunity just to learn about
the city, learn about Alabama.
I had known some folks who werefrom there and so I just wanted
to kind of get the full scope ofwhat Alabama had to offer and
(13:47):
what was going on there and youalways hear weird stories about
the South, about how it'sdifferent and it's like a little
different country within itself.
So I just really wanted toexplore the history of the world
and what had happened there,what has perspired from Martin
Luther King to the Civil RightsMovement, to all those things.
It's important just to kind ofbe where they were.
I had been to DC in October oflast year and able to stand
(14:11):
where Martin Luther King stoodand go to the African-American
Museum, and so this was justlike something.
I was like oh, I need to addmore knowledge and I need to
have more experiences to justreally walk in on myness uh,
really know my history, um, andjust explore that hey, it's dr b
and let me ask you somethingjust here, real quick.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
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(14:52):
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Thank you for watching thesepodcasts.
Now let's get back to theconversation.
Cool, so we get to the airportand now you start seeing the
people that we're going to go onthis trip with.
Was there a feeling of like, ohman, this is going to be great.
(15:57):
Or was it still like I'm notsure who these people are,
because a lot of them you hadn'tmet yet?
You know, you met others as wegot there, but was you know
because a lot of them you?
Speaker 1 (16:10):
hadn't met yet.
You know we met others as as wegot there, but was there like
this excitement or was it kindof like a?
I just got to check this outexcitement for sure.
I saw some familiar faces bj um, stephen, or some people I know
um but I was excited just tosee the people that looked like
they were going.
I think it's important whodon't look like us to go.
Obviously, I think they shouldknow the history as well, but I
think it's important for peoplewho don't look like us to go.
Obviously I think they shouldknow the history as well, but I
think it's important for peoplewho, especially if you're from
Colorado or if you grew up inColorado, again there's this
(16:31):
level of detachment that youdon't have with your history,
because the distance withinitself is there.
Obviously, I grew up in Denverand there's still some Black
history there, but it justdoesn't, it's not, it doesn't
sit.
The same.
There's not as much a claim asif you were to go to Alabama,
mississippi, georgia, kind ofthose places.
And so I was excited lookingaround at pastors and you know
(16:54):
historians and you know blackleaders in the community and
people who really do love theculture, and I was excited for
those things.
And even people who might nothave the same opinions or
thoughts or feelings as us.
That would have been cool too.
I don't know if we had anypeople who were Muslim or
anything like that who came onthe trip, but I think it's
important to have differentperspectives of people who love
history and love black people tocome on to the trip.
(17:16):
So I was excited, cool.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
So we fly there.
We get there Kaelin reminded meand BJ reminded me it was a
rough landing.
I don't remember the landing atall, but I guess it was.
It was.
It was pretty rough as we.
I sat down and, uh, we were onthat small plane that you know
what's not like, what a lot offolks are used to when we get
there to do the shuttleworthairport.
One of the things that at leastKellen said yesterday is, uh,
(17:41):
where we kind of starteddeveloping relationships as a
group, as a team, was aroundthat barbecue machine.
That was, you know, a vendingmachine at the baggage claim
where we're waiting for our vans.
When you saw that and saw thepeople reacting, did you feel
kind of more comfortable?
(18:01):
Because what I kind of thoughtabout yesterday is we all came
around something common that weall knew about.
Right, we all think about andknow about barbecue, and so now
we're comparing stories tobarbecue all over the world that
we've ever had or not had, andwho's got the best barbecue, and
we're kind of having some funin that moment.
Was that something that waskind of fun for you, just to
(18:24):
kind of get to know peoplearound some barbecue, or yeah,
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Breaking bread is everything, man.
I think it's embedded in howyou connect with people.
So that was cool.
I personally wouldn't have ateanything out of a vending
machine, so kudos to those whodid.
But yeah, barbecue is bestsmoked not smoked in machine,
smoked in a smoker.
So kudos to, but it is.
(18:50):
It's those moments because youhave the debates of well, who
has the best barbecue, where'sthe best barbecue from?
Is it Texas, is it Tennessee?
Is it vinegar-based, is ittomato-based?
You get those people who havedifferent perspectives and
opinions and thoughts and you'reyou're like okay, let's see who
who's, who really knows theirstuff and who's just been like
you know, they've had a littlebit of you.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Yeah, that's a great way for us to just start coming
together as a group and as ateam around the, you know, an
object or a thing or a thingthat just happened to be where
we had to wait Was kind of neat.
So we go to the hotel, then weend up and we have our first
session with Jeff Campbell, whois the Emancipation Theater, and
he kind of goes through storyand we even get to have a group,
(19:33):
you know, start creating astory together and we're meeting
with different groups andstarting to learn people, was
there anything in that sessionor anything that you said oh man
, this is, this is going to be agood trip, uh, or this is going
to be, is this whole trip goingto be?
Like this guy?
You know, we kind of don't knowwhat's happening.
You know, you haven't, you know, other than we got to the hotel
and now we're talking aboutthis story, stuff, what, how did
(19:55):
you react or feel after orduring that, that, that session
that we had?
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Oh, I loved it, Uh, in the storytelling competitions
all the time.
So just to see Jeff and hiselement was cool.
The storytelling part wasprobably one of the most
influential things.
It's just because you have tohave people who are actively
paying attention and doing theirpart and you can't control them
and they can't control you andall you can do is play your part
.
So we were trying to get allthese certain words to fill into
(20:21):
the story.
People were so worried aboutthe words that we were
forgetting that we had to tellthe story, and so just to have
that dynamic of how stories aretold, how people connect, how we
connect through story, was justreally important, and even just
the way that we all had tointroduce ourselves and connect
with each other breaking breadover food the food was pretty
(20:42):
good.
Just to have each other in thespace being present.
I think often that's the hardpart too in the fast where we
live in is like people arealways going, going, going or
the attention span is minimal.
But with the ability just tosit and be, participate and tell
a story and engage with eachother was just super awesome to
(21:03):
be in, so I was excited.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
And I think that was the first part where we started
just exploring the tensionbetween races and tension in
2025 and what's going on.
And you know, we were able tolook globally, nationally, and
then you know, community-wide asto we just began that
conversation.
We didn't do a whole lot withit, but we were able to do it
(21:25):
within our own space andallowing folks to spend that
time and tell their story fromtheir perspective and who they
were, I thought was was reallycool.
So we go back and then the nextday we do another session kind
of similar and and dig more intothat, and then we decide we're
going to go on this tour.
We're going to go in the tourof Birmingham Alabama.
We're going to go on this tour.
(21:45):
We're going to go in the tour ofBirmingham Alabama and we have
Ray Clay Tours who is taking usand we have this you know, kind
of like what you said in highschool where it's a white
gentleman who is now going toteach us the history of
Birmingham and take us to placesthat some of us had never even
thought about.
You know the famous places likethe 16th Street Church.
You know the famous places likethe 16th Street Church.
(22:07):
You know that was a famousplace.
We've all probably heard aboutit, but maybe you've heard about
the theater, but ShuttleworthHouse where it got bombed was
probably not in that community.
Kind of walk us through yourfeelings as we began to embark
on that tour, and what you werethinking it was going to be and
then what it ended up being.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yeah, I knew it was going to probably be
heart-wrenching, just becauseyou're hearing history, a sad
history at that.
What I didn't expect it to bewas eerie and kind of sad, like
the environment itself, becauseas we're going through the city,
you just see the downcline ofit all, just the fact that the
city is not thriving, thatthere's really no people out
(22:50):
here, that there's no realeconomic happenings here.
That was kind of a duh moment,but it's also like you wouldn't
know unless you go, as we weregoing through the different
places and we're hearing Claytalk kind of a duh moment, but
it's also like you wouldn't knowunless you go, as we were going
through the different placesand we're hearing Clay talk.
I think Clay was just a verydynamic teacher professor in
(23:15):
this way because he was just sodirect.
He was just very honest, he wasvery to the point, he didn't
really sugarcoat anything.
He didn't sugarcoat anything atall, actually.
And so just to have him just behonest about what had happened
there, honest about his storyand his connection to the city
and him living there and why hedoes what he does, and then just
kind of again him living thereand why he does what he does,
(23:39):
and then just kind of again theplanter feet in places, in
spaces all across Birmingham,was just crazy.
So whether it's we're on thebus and we're looking at the
houses that all had been bombed,we're looking at the different
neighborhoods as we're riding onthe bus, or we're looking over
and you talk about well, thisplace got bombed and this
happened here, and this is whereShuttlesworth, like all the
just everything, culminating.
It was just, it washeartbreaking as well as it was
(24:02):
just eye-opening because it'sjust like this is not just a
story in a book, this isactually something that happened
here.
This is like this is truthbeing lived out, truth being
lived out.
And so I think I was definitelyprocessing just like the fact
that, like how truthfuleverything we had heard in books
(24:24):
and had been watching on TV hadbeen, but it's a different
dynamic when you're actuallyputting your place in your
physical body somewhere.
So I struggled with having hopefor the future as well as
mourning what was.
It was a very give and takekind of moment, bittersweet for
sure.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Yeah, is there one or two things that you could say
okay after the tour?
These are two things thatprobably impacted me more than
any other part of the tour, orand maybe why that was and how
you had that connection withthose particular pieces in that.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Yeah, I think all the facts, just the fact that there
was so much information thatwas being shared, that impacted
me because you're learning somuch in such a small amount of
time, but I think anything thatnothing hit me more than the
last maybe two minutes with Clayand his quote that he always
(25:22):
instituted and just how he hadlost hope in his and just the
deep feeling you felt when hejust talked about hopelessness,
Because I think I can understandthat more than anything.
I think in the time, in thetimes we're living in and the
history of our country and theway that the world is, hope can
be far and few, especially withyou know, whether the political
(25:46):
system we're looking at, theeconomic system or just, you
know, homelessness, the state ofthe world and just any and
everything can just cause you tobe more and more hopeless, and
so I just sat with that.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
And I can you know, for me, because I was able to go
the year before and I, you know, I got to meet Clay, and this
is the second time here in Clayand you know Clay doesn't change
, I mean he's, he's Clay.
You know over and over, as he'sdone thousands of these same
tours.
But I think what was differentfor me, and maybe you can tie it
here, is when I went in 2024,it was before our presidential
(26:25):
election.
When I went in 2025, we justhad a presidential election
where there was so muchdivisiveness in our country over
this election.
And now we're sitting in a cityand we're learning about
politicians, we're learningabout police chiefs, we're
learning about the politicalsystem of the 1960s, and then
(26:47):
now I have the ability tocompare it to what's happening
right now, in 2025, inBirmingham, Alabama, and it
didn't seem as much of adifferent, like there wasn't a
whole lot different inBirmingham.
It didn't seem that way.
I mean there was, I mean, youknow, but it was so quiet and so
(27:08):
still so segregated and stillso, you know, project housing on
one side of the street andnicer houses on the other side
of the street, but then thisdecrepitation of a city where
there was nothing going on.
There's, like you said, noe-commerce, no people walking
around.
It didn't look like there wasany business being done.
Do you think that election orwhat we've just gone through as
(27:30):
a country, affected some of theway that you viewed Birmingham?
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Yes and no.
I think initially yes becauseyou're like okay, how did it
affect the South?
Because we always talk aboutthe South as like it's already a
divisive, different place.
But then, when you look atBirmingham as a whole, it just
didn't feel any different.
I felt like, because of the wayClay had described it, it was
like this is just how it's been.
Once the economy and all themoney had left, you get this
(28:02):
dead grass, these uncared forplaces, you get the exit.
The mass exit is results.
And so I think it was like oh,this is what happens when
division takes place.
Results, you know.
And so I didn't.
I think it was like oh, this iswhat happens when you know when
division takes place and then,after division takes place, when
choices are made and what thosethose choices, uh, have result
(28:25):
in.
Because, as he was talkingabout it, he said like, when the
people why people decide toleave the economy, left with
them because they were kind ofhelping you know the city as a
whole.
And so I was like, oh, I guessyou know, but it then just in a
global or a national way.
It's like oh, this is whathappens when you, when you don't
like what's going on and youdecide to just go ahead and
(28:46):
leave.
Leave the things in shambles,wow so.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
So we finished the tour and we decided we're gonna
go meet, meet Janice Kelsey thatevening, and a different
perspective, because JaniceKelsey had lived during that
time and so maybe kind of justwalk through, you know, I don't
know what the expectation was,but when she started talking and
(29:13):
then her brother was there andthey started talking about those
times and then the son wasthere as a result of things that
mom had done, you know whatkind of impact or what were your
thoughts from from that time.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Yeah, I think it's different to hear about history,
but it's a different.
It's even different when you aretalking to living history,
people who are there, who peopleexperienced it, whether it's
you know, you talk, talk, peoplewho are at ground zero at 9, 11
, or you know, even you know,colorado history, somebody who's
at the theater shooting, butthey survived or they were the
(29:42):
other opposite end of the thing.
It's just, it's different tohave those conversations versus
being, you know, in proximity.
So just to have thoseconversations with her, to hear
her story and see, like, theimpact that youth and children
have versus adults, and just tosee that we all have a part to
play, was super cool.
But just also to see, you know,hear and hear about the sadness
(30:02):
of, like her, being, you know,two or maybe one or two
different degrees away from the16th street bombing.
You know she's like, oh, wewent to school together, I knew,
I, we, you know, we knew whothese people were.
These weren't just figurativebeings.
This wasn't marvel captainamerica, this was, you know,
susie from down the street, youknow, just to see.
(30:23):
That was very different, um butit was encouraging because again
, she gets to tell her story andit doesn't die like the truth
doesn't die because, uh, it'sbeen hidden or it's been
whitewashed or whatever you wantto call it.
It's actually continuing to moveon, and whether it's just her
brother or her son or just thefamily dynamic, you get to see
the fact that just becausesomething bad happened doesn't
(30:47):
mean we don't talk about it.
Actually, we talk about it moreand we actually get to
acknowledge what truth tookplace in our city, and also as
we deal with traumas of life andthat she didn't, and also as we
deal with, you know, traumas oflife that she didn't have to
stay there.
You know, when I think about,like rosa parks and having to
leave her, leave, uh, her state,like she, her life was never
the same.
She couldn't just be, uh,another worker somewhere else.
(31:10):
She was, you know, idolized andepitomized for this one moment
for the rest of her life, and sothe fact that she was able to
move on and have kids and liveher life and grow, to go, be all
the things that she could be,was beautiful too, because you
don't have to let a particularseason of your life or moment in
your life define you.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Were you able to talk to her or her brother?
Or anybody afterwards, or justas, or just part of the thing
that we were doing, did you getany time alone with them?
Speaker 1 (31:41):
I did want to but I didn't really get a chance to.
But just to hear her story, toask her questions, to see where
her heart and head were, to seethe joy in her heart I know she
had had a lot going on in thelast year Just to see her in
good spirits was beautifulwithin itself and I think it
just provides another layer ofhope.
You know this too shall pass isjust kind of where you know we
(32:06):
are in our lives.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
And we were meeting at.
You know where we met her andgot to talk.
It was one of the biggerchurches that's in the Alabama
area and I know, as you are ayouth pastor and think about
church and the dynamics, did younotice anything about the
church or how it was laid out orthe people that were there that
seemed anything different thanhow we go to church here?
(32:29):
Or was it just another placewhere you could worship?
What was your thought of that?
I guess the atmosphere there?
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yeah, well, the size gets you first because it's huge
.
It was a huge church, I think.
Also, I haven't been in Blackchurch in so long and I don't
mind the multicultural church orinterdenominational churches.
I think it's beautiful for sure.
But just to be in a blackchurch was super cool and even
(32:59):
to hear about the expansion oflike hey, like we're doing this
and this, like just what blackchurch meant in a former time,
being lived out in a in apresent time, was beautiful to
see because it wasn't just, youknow, sunday, like it was not
what it is now, where it feelslike, oh, it's just Sunday and
then maybe a Wednesday nightBible study.
(33:19):
Actually it's invigorated intothe community.
It's like, oh no, we're doingthis with the kids and we're
doing this with the elderly andwe're doing this for we're
raising this money to go sendthese people to this place and
we're sending kids to camp.
It's embedded in what thecommunity is already doing.
It was just cool to see thathappen, and it was.
(33:39):
You know, it just sucks that wedon't get to experience that
here.
I think that was also the hardpart of it.
It's just like I would love forthere to be a Black church
dynamic that is embedded inColorado.
That gives us an opportunity tohave kids to know their history
(34:00):
but to support the community.
I think oftentimes the churchesout here unfortunately become
siloed because they all havecertain missions that they're
trying to accomplish that don'tnecessarily align with another
church, or somebody has to bethe head of it, or they don't
necessarily know how to lockarms.
But this church seemed to knowhow to do that within their own
community.
(34:20):
I'm sure there's probably otherchurches within that community.
It was dark when we got thereso I couldn't necessarily see
the lay of the land, but I'msure they were just doing so
much the way that the church hasbeen called to do that.
I'm just like man.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
This is beautiful yeah, and just like you said,
that dynamic of community seemsto be lost, at least in our
communities, here in the modernchurch where so much is online
or so much is.
You know, you could tell thiscommunity wrapped herself around
this church and that churchwrapped itself around that
(34:52):
community and it was a placewhere people could gather and
people were gathering and stuff.
So I thought that was reallyneat and so next day we go to,
we have a few more sessions andthen we move and head towards
Selma, and so we get to Selmaand there's this bridge, the
Pettus Bridge.
We've watched the movie Selma,but it's one thing to see it on
(35:14):
TV and another thing to bestanding on it.
What were your thoughts aswe're walking across this bridge
?
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Yeah, again, it's the ability to be present with
what's going on.
You know, when you're standingat the place where Dr King
delivers his, I have a Dreamspeech to walking across the
bridge where he was fighting forfreedom.
It's a different dynamic, for me, because it's just freedom
(35:44):
feels so far away, especiallywhen you have people who died
for freedom.
When I think about theassassinations of so many Black
people who are just fighting forthe right to live or the rights
to have everything that theyshould have as an American or as
a person, it just it washeart-wrenching, because it's
just another moment of like man.
(36:04):
Did he know, like did Dr Kingknow, what was on the other side
of walking on this bridge?
They know the value of his lifewalking across the bridge.
Did they know what this wasgonna lead to?
You know it.
Just.
It reevaluates for me just thecounting the cost.
Is it easy?
Are you fighting for somethingor are you just living day to
(36:27):
day?
Or are you in survival mode?
And just the fact that a lot ofpeople in my generation, we are
often so far off from theability to think about freedom
and think about justice becausewe are so embedded in a survival
mode or so embedded inhopelessness or embedded in just
our situations that there'snothing further than us to fight
(36:48):
for had someone and a group ofpeople who are actively looking
for more, and we get to bedirect descendants of those
things and directly affected bythose things.
It was just beautiful, but alsoit was just it was.
It was sad.
It was just sad again, becausewhy are we having to fight for
(37:12):
something that should naturallybe our own?
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Yeah, you think, thousands of bridges all over
the world and the country,millions of bridges, and you
know that's just a bridge, butthat bridge has so much
significance into, you know, andfor me, you know, I kind of
said in the bridge, this time alittle bit differently than last
time, because the first timeI'd watch Selma, then I'd go to
(37:37):
the bridge and, ok, you know,this bridge isn't as big as it
looks in the movie and all thosepeople are walking through.
This time, because I watchedSelma again and I had already
been to the bridge, selma made anew because now I can, you know
, I'm watching the movie, it's alittle bit different, and so,
but just the significance.
And then that, walking backfrom the end of the bridge to
the Amy Church and just thinking, you know, I was thinking this
(38:00):
time, what were the folks whowere going on this march,
thinking as they were, you know,and when the march actually
happened, that our bloody cityalready happened.
So the next time they're doingit, they're going, we could do
this and die.
The next time they're doing it,they're going, we could do this
and die.
And we're willing to walk fromthis AME church.
We're going to walk over thisbridge that's named after this
(38:22):
really bad man, and on the otherside is this group of Army
National Guard folks that hateme and I'm still going to go
through it, and you stand thereand go.
Oh my gosh, they were willingand I thought to myself, was I
willing or would I have beenwilling?
(38:42):
And I hope I would have been.
I mean, I can't go back to thattime and say I did it, but I
don't know.
Based on what I know now andthinking about your family and
thinking about my kids andthinking about my wife, all the
dynamics of my life that are soimportant, would I have packed
up a suitcase, willing to walkfor three or four days, you know
(39:04):
, to fight something that thisinjustice is happening.
So the AME church.
So now we walk over to the AMEchurch and it's just quiet.
It's like you know, obviouslynot open because it's nighttime.
Any thoughts when you got tothat church and it's just quiet.
It's like you know, obviouslyit's not open because it's
nighttime.
Any thoughts when you got tothat church and about you and
you just walked the bridge, thatkind of stuff.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
Yeah, I think the dilapidated parts of where we
walked through were just like,man, it's never.
I've never been to a ghost town, I've never been to something
so worn down.
Whether you know, I've heardabout Chicago, places like those
, places like that, where it'slike it's just a ghost town, and
so to actually experience itwas just weird, it was again an
airy feeling.
But to get to the church andjust see like okay, this wasn't
(39:46):
just a stroll of like you walkedto here and there, it's like
actually, and the amount ofpeople, just like the amount of
people who are willing to againfight opposition, is that I
think we don't necessarily havein the same dynamic, you know,
people like a physical, actualphysical, uh, threat to your
livelihood, um, and so, yeah, itwas just, it was, it was cool
(40:08):
to be there, but also to seethat um, the again the honor,
respect that was given, that'sstill being maintained today,
because it's one thing to say,oh, this happened, let's give
honor to it.
But to actually have his statuestill be there and the monuments
, just like the names, likeagain something holding weight
(40:30):
today that meant so much thenstill having meaning now is
super life-giving.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
Yeah, so cool.
So then we we we leave thechurch and we go have a dinner
together and we were stillcreating relationship and still
talking about story and gettingto know each other.
And I know what's coming and Iknow that the next day is going
to be something that's probablyhard to go through.
So I wanted to make sure thatwe fulfill some kind of
enjoyment and some fun the nightbefore.
So and I think everybody gotthat and you know we're at this
(41:00):
restaurant, you know it's aMexican restaurant and those
people work so hard to be ableto serve us and I think we just
super enjoyed our time together.
And then the next day we startdriving to Montgomery and I have
a guy named Dr Mack who comeson and he and he kind of shares
with us maybe some of theinsights of history, what types
of things we might see at themuseum, any thoughts on Mack's
(41:21):
talk or things that you rememberfrom it that you may have known
or may not have known afterhearing all the work that he did
in order to lift up folks ofcolor in his calendar and these
things that we've had.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Yeah, I think the depth of truth that he knew like
I think we often talk abouthistory and the facts, but the
fact that he just knew so muchand that he wouldn't sugarcoat,
it was what I appreciated,because there is a little bit of
cussing and a little bit ofjust like he's, just like this
is what it is, and I appreciatedthat because, um, I think the
(41:58):
thing that often is missing isjust the ability to give just
unfiltered truth for there to bechange, and so his ability to
develop this calendar, to do thehistorical studying, to
acknowledge the hardships andthe truth and the dates, and
just to see a physicalmanifestation of hard work and
(42:20):
dedication put into knowingwhat's actually happened, which
is so super encouraging.
And, you know, and it was aninvitation and not just to, you
know, put it up somewhere andhave it, but it was an
invitation to actuallyexperience the fact that this is
something that somebody hadtook the time to really dedicate
, to want to share with others,to not just hold it in and
(42:40):
become again a silo or isolated,but actually share with the
world, like this is what's goingon, this is what has happened,
and again, a level of blood likeit was respectful, even in his
ability to share the truth.
It wasn't like I was offended,it was like, oh man, he could
have said that differently.
It was actually man.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
That was, that was a way to say it cool.
So we get to the museum.
You've been now to theafrican-american museum in dc so
you, you've seen that, you'vekind of experienced what that is
and you're probably feelinglike this is going to be similar
or close to that museum.
Um, talk to me about the, themuseum, and maybe even make that
(43:19):
comparison, because the folkswe've talked to so far haven't
been able to make thatcomparison of the two and maybe
kind of walk us through some ofthe things that you saw and
heard that maybe be a little bitdifferent than the other museum
or just what I guess maybesurprised you that you didn't,
that you saw that you weren'tthinking you were going to that
(43:42):
you didn't, that you saw thatyou weren't thinking you were
going to.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
Yeah, I think, um, so I also saw the holocaust museum
in dc, so it's like I have adifferent lens as well.
Yeah, when walking intoafrican-american museum in dc,
you have a lot of joy, like it'slike a very upbeat happy place.
The basement has the soul food,um, you're hearing, you know
beyonce and like a whole bunchof different artists as you go
throughout the museum.
So you're, you're exploring thehistory in a different way.
(44:07):
They had the and I think atthat point they had the emmett
till um images and like stuff,like they were focusing on him.
So there was a lot there, um,but it was completely different
when we were in.
Uh, because it's it's, it's it'sjust sadness, it's just
(44:27):
brutality, it's it's violence,it's harsh, it's, it's in your
face.
Whether you're going to um kindof the tombstones that are
hanging at the lynching museum,part of it, or if you're going
inside, you're seeing just likethe dynamics of the slave ships
and how they got here, or justlike the entire timeline that
(44:48):
you're able to see, whether it'sbe picking up the phone call to
talk to convicts who have beenwrongly convicted, or you're
getting the talk, you knowhaving an interpretation of what
the slaves were feeling orthinking, and you step into a
certain room and it's like acell.
So you get this eerie feeling.
Contrary to even the HolocaustMuseum, which they're both kind
(45:12):
of, the Holocaust Museum is huge, but it just doesn't feel as
real as something that happenedin your own country to your own
people.
That directly affects you to thepoint where we're at the
lynching museum and, um, joshsees a name and the name is of a
(45:37):
person that belongs directly tohim, and you just feel that
it's like another gut punch,because it's like this is it
again?
This isn't far off.
This is something directlyaffecting because josh was my
roommate, so it's just anotherthing.
You're like man.
This is directly affecting me,but also it just speaks to the
(45:59):
fact that, like there is alwaysgoing to be something worth
fighting for.
You just have to be willing toput yourself out there to fight
for it and so just have that bea truth and reality of and a
reminder, because I think, again, we get caught up, so caught up
in life that we we robourselves of opportunity to be
like you know what.
Actually, there's something moreimportant, there's something
bigger than me that I should befighting for, whether it's me,
(46:21):
or it's my family, or it'swrongful convictions.
You were at the wrongfulconvictions.
The year is a car.
Um, there's someone somewhereneeding your voice to be added
to the conversation and you haveto be willing to use your voice
, and sometimes not even yourvoice.
Sometimes you just have to bewilling to step in Like.
I think there's a power insilence and just action within
(46:42):
itself that we can miss if wedon't put ourselves in those
positions.
So I think I was grateful forthe opportunity.
But also, as you were beginningyour walk through the museum,
there is a acknowledgement oflike the truth and the distance
and the depth of how far back itgoes.
And then if you get to the uh,the beautiful part of I didn't
(47:06):
get to get on the boat, but yougo to the, the outside museum
you get to really see thatthere's still um power in, in
joy and in happiness and inchoice, and there's still a
freedom dynamic that's happeningon both sides of it, whether
the freedom was robbed or thefreedom was chosen, and it's
(47:29):
just in the different dynamics.
So I was blown away, especiallywhen you get to like the big
wall in the outside with all thenames and all the people who
were now free and what thatmeant to be free and just the
ability to change your name andwhat that meant.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
I think both museums celebrate getting through it.
But the Equal Justice Museumreally lets you understand what
folks went through.
It's one thing to say, yeah,this was bad when we went
through.
It's one thing to go, wow,we're talking to somebody who
really went through it.
Or just to you know that bigscreen at the beginning that has
(48:08):
just the ocean, and realizingthat somebody was taken from
their home and saying what if Iwas taken, like right now, over
and be on a ship for three orfour months and then, or a month
, whatever it is, and then neverto see anybody that I grew or
knew up with ever again?
You know, and then having tostart with was it'd be like,
(48:30):
what would that be?
Because it gives you that, itallows you to have that feeling,
you know, whereas, whereas theyou know the museum in dc just
celebrate, hey, yes, this ispart of my heritage, this is,
you know, we've made it through.
We're not all the way done yet,but we still.
You know this is we got to jumpthe broom and you know all the
things that are the cool partsof it.
And then you walk out of thismuseum.
(48:51):
Just, I guess you know for me,angry at both times still that
we've only come a little bit.
I mean, we haven't come as faras what the dream was.
We haven't come as far as maybewe'd want to be.
It's still a process.
We still have issues that aregoing on.
So you get down, we get downwith the trip.
(49:12):
We have this last gatheringtogether as we kind of talk and
that one kind of felt, as we hadwhite brothers and sisters and
Black folks that were there thathad just come to the museum
decompressing.
It seemed like it was.
I'm glad we did it, but therewas tension in the air.
There was, you know, whether itwas Josh finding his family or
(49:35):
James just going.
I'm going through this stuffthat feels like this my whole
life.
How do I reconcile?
What were your thoughts?
As we're finalizing our storyand relationships?
I'm glad that we have themabout.
I'm in this room and now I haveto go home and be in rooms like
this all over again.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
Yeah, I think it left me with a choice to make about
how I wanted to engage withpeople whether it was Black
people or whether it was whitepeople or just going home to
deal with myself, Because I camehome and I was thinking about
just working as a self and I hadnever felt more like a slave.
Until after I left I was likeman, I'm just going to do all
(50:19):
this work.
I'm just going to continueworking the same way that these
people have fought for our lives.
They're just working.
There was no culmination ofanything but today, tomorrow,
and this is what it was, and soI was struggling with that.
I was like, okay, I want to dosomething more than just go to
work every day.
I want to do something morethan just um clock in, clock out
(50:43):
and put money towards bills,like it just felt.
Yeah, it's a struggle there,for sure, um, but I also wanted
to choose to be, um, loving andkind and be a peacemaker, not a
peacekeeper, um, and I think,oftentimes, in order to do that,
you have to be willing tolisten and not really willing to
talk.
So oftentimes, you're like, man, you talked today, I'm like,
(51:03):
yeah, but the reason why I'moften quiet is because, often so
, there's somebody in the roomwho's not willing to speak, who
needs an opportunity, andoftentimes it's not me.
I'm like I have a decent gift ofgab so I don't feel that it's
necessary.
I've got plenty of people in myfamily who love to talk and
talk a lot.
I'm kind of just like hands offin that way, but I think I felt
(51:28):
it.
I felt James, his angst, hisfrustration, his anger, and then
also him being a father, himbeing a husband there's
different levels to it of I haveto go home to my wife and look
her in the face and tell her Ilove her and care for her, but
be angry.
And so it just talks about yourmanhood and how you handle
those things.
(51:48):
And then I also felt Jason,when he was like why are you?
I forgot what his name I thinkit was.
Speaker 2 (51:56):
His name is David, yeah, yeah, whenid started
speaking, he was like hey, he'slike why are you like?
Speaker 1 (52:02):
you know, I felt his, his frustration.
He was like why are youspeaking when we just went
through all these things, youknow I I understood that.
Or if it was josh's feelings ofyou know the biggest amount of
anger, but still wanted to lovepeople, um, I think I felt all
those things but, um, I think,more than anything, I just
wanted to deal with the thingsthat were going on with me
(52:25):
inside, where there was theconflict of do I really want to
deal with white people in acertain way?
Do I know how to love them well, or do I know how to receive
their love?
Speaker 2 (52:34):
Because there's some days where I'm like no, I can't.
Speaker 1 (52:35):
There's some days where like, and also knowing
that it's okay to feel thosethings, it's okay to feel both
sides of it, because the refusalto feel those things on either
side actually doesn't bring anygrowth, doesn't bring any change
.
It actually makes you even morestagnant than before if you
don't actually feel both sides.
It's the beauty of being human,because it can be very
(52:59):
traumatizing to sit at themuseum for hours because we were
there for a full day.
It can be very traumatizingjust to sit in it, but it can
also be very healing to be takenout of it and then talk about
it and feel all the things,think of all the things and then
decide what you want to do fromthere.
Wow, that's cool.
Speaker 2 (53:20):
So we come back and now Isaiah is a different man
because of some of theexperience that we had, and we
all are different for any of theexperience that we have.
But we're thinking of okay, howdo I interact?
How do I change?
How do I not just go to work?
Just to go to work, what?
What are some of the things youknow we've been back 100 days
that you may have changed, orsome things that you have a
(53:41):
vision for as the future moves,on, things that you would like
to see happening and that you'dbe a part of here in our area,
in our community?
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (53:52):
I'm a big fan of Robert Jelanis, so reading his
first book was very eye-opening,just because of obviously it's
a historical fiction book basedon Denver, so that has been
beautiful, and going to thewrong fiction thing has been
awesome.
I've been off of social mediafor a while now and so that's
been life-giving as well.
I think it just takes theability just to separate
(54:15):
yourself from some things.
I'm in therapy, so I'm talkingto my therapist about all the
things going on in life, so it'sjust really been character
development.
It's just been really dealingwith what you're dealing with.
Even one of the questions youhad in the questionnaire before
we got on was how do you definetrauma and how do you deal with
it and what is the goal to healthose traumas and building
(54:35):
resilience.
It was just like it takes justsitting in the quiet.
It takes sometimes just sitting, you know feeling sitting in
the darkness but not choosing tobe dark and acknowledging the
light in you know, in the littlesparks of light that you know
life has to offer.
So I'm not sure what I want todo with all of it, though I
(54:57):
think there's something that I'mtrying to produce out of it,
whether it's internal orexternal, but I truly think, as
I'm back home, I really want tolock arms with people who have a
vision for how they want tochange the city for everyone,
whether it's young, old, black,white or indifferent Just who
really wants to go out and be apeacemaker and love people.
(55:19):
Well.
Speaker 2 (55:23):
You talked about doing.
Are you doing stuff with PastorGelinas at Colorado Community
Church?
Are you doing youth ministrysomewhere else?
Where are you at right now asfar as ministry and the things
that you're trying to moveforward with it?
Speaker 1 (55:37):
Yeah, again, I'm kind of a joker of all trades right
now.
I guess I'm tied to CCC.
For sure it's important to JoeInes in any way I can.
I've bought both his books.
I'm looking forward to thethird one that's coming out.
I've sat down with him a coupletimes just to talk about his
heart and his passion towardswrongful convictions.
(55:58):
I've even got an opportunity totalk to jason the most recently
, uh.
Second most recently, excuse me, a person who's been helped by
the uh innocence project outhere in color.
Yeah, um, I'm trying to justkeep my ear to the ground.
I'm not sure, uh, what to do orwho to do it with.
I've worked with the history ofCarl, history of churches out
(56:21):
here with Jerry Mackey.
I'm kind of tied with a lot ofthe churches out here, whether
it's a Christian Bible church,the Connection Church Refuge
with Stephen Cartwright, so I'mreally just trying to be plugged
in as much as possible.
Indicative is mostly in a youthyouth lens, just because that's
(56:42):
my expertise at the moment, butchurch lens as a whole.
Because I've been in church mywhole life, you know I probably
count on my hands and toes howmany times I've missed church on
a Sunday, you know, kind ofthing.
But I think, more than anything, I really want to change the
way that the church is for meand for the people around me,
that it can be everything we sawin Alabama with Dr Kelsey's
(57:06):
knowledge.
It's meant to serve thecommunity, it's meant to serve
others.
It's not just a pop-in, pop-outkind of thing that we've made
it to be in the last couple ofyears post-pandemic, wow.
Speaker 2 (57:18):
What didn't we talk about that you wanted to make
sure that we covered in thisconversation today.
Speaker 1 (57:25):
I think we covered most of it.
I think my prayer and goal isfor the Journey to Freedom
podcast and just the next tripis that we bring more Black men
in the room Outside of RhondaWilliams, who's a lovely person.
I think it's important to justhave another perspective in the
room that speaks to a dynamic,and I hope that she would be
able to bring some moreenlightenment that we didn't
(57:46):
necessarily get, because I thinkwith a lot of Black men in the
room it can be very angry and itcan be limited emotions.
I think we're able to feel alot of things but not
necessarily have the ability tocommunicate those things.
I think we're able to feel alot of things, but I necessarily
have the ability to communicatethose things.
And so I think I hope we havepeople who are able to kind of
articulate and communicate thosefeelings of you know, disgust
(58:07):
or anguish, or lost ordepression, maybe communicate
those very well.
So Wow.
Speaker 2 (58:15):
So you would go back and maybe even bring somebody
for the experiences.
Is, you know, a worthwhileexperience that you think for a
whole lot of folks right?
Speaker 1 (58:23):
Absolutely.
I think it's important, whetherit's my grandma who is a she's
76, or it's my brother who is 17.
I think it's important forpeople to again talk about your
history, experience your history, but also know where you need
to go, where you can go fromhere.
(58:44):
You know, I think you know.
We always talk about wherewould Martin Luther King be had
he not been assassinated.
We talk about what Malcolm Xcould have produced if he had
not gone.
You know what the Black PantherParty would have done had it
not necessarily been disbandedor in the way it was.
Yeah, oh, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (59:01):
Well, thank you so much for for being a part of
this today.
Thank you for, uh, sharing yourheart, sharing your mind.
This isn't going to be the end.
We're going to do this journey.
We're going to take more peopleuh, you know and you know, I I
hope that the folks that arelistening and this is the first
episode you've ever seen thereare some other really good ones.
Please go ahead and subscribeand all those wonderful things
(59:25):
that you do to notifications andthat kind of stuff, to make
sure that you're a part of whatwe do.
If you want to get moreinformation or make comments,
please go ahead and do that.
Isaiah, it has been, just like Isaid, a pleasure to have you on
today and to have you, and forthose of you, I want to always
(59:46):
end with this that you're God'sgreatest gift.
You are, and he believes in you.
He wants you, if you allow himto, he wants to love on you the
best that he possibly can.
So you guys have a wonderful,just amazing, incredible day and
we'll look forward to talkingto you on the next one.
Any one last closing thought,isaiah.
Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
No, God bless All right, God bless.
Speaker 2 (01:00:18):
We'll see you on the next one.
The excitement to go somewhere I've never been before
.
I think it's important to goplaces you've never been.
So Alabama and the South as awhole is somewhere I've never
really visited.
But I think on the other sideof it was a little bit of
apprehension, just because ofthe state of the world and kind
of the racial relations thatwe're having that aren't
necessarily safe for everyone.
The Ku Klux Klan is stillexisting, those are all right.
There's a lot going on in theworld.
(00:21):
And so I was like do I reallywant to go?
Do I really want to put myselfin a position, you know, like
you know, I hadn't evenresearched sundown towns enough
to know like the part of town weshould be on, kind of those
things.
But putting all like angst andfear to the side, I just really
wanted to have an opportunityjust to learn about the city,
learn about alabama.
I had known some folks who werefrom there and so I just wanted
to kind of get the full scopeof what Alabama had to offer and
(00:44):
what was going on there.
And you always hear weirdstories about the South, about
how it's different and it's likea little different country
within itself.
So I just really wanted toexplore the history of the world
and what had happened there andwhat has perspired from, you
know, martin Luther King, to thecivil rights movement, to all
those things.
It's important just to kind ofbe where they were All right.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Welcome to just another wonderful edition of the
Journey to Freedom podcast, andthis is our Alabama edition.
And so, for those of you whohave been kind of following
along with our trip to Alabamaand what we did and how we were
able to go there, we combinedthe trip with an organization
called Issachar, which is theleadership development in urban
(01:44):
Denver, and so able to go outand really see what leaders are
doing in our community, and sopart of the trip was combining
it with folks from Issachar andfolks that we met from Journey
to Freedom.
Thank you to Grand Design forhelping us with sponsoring some
(02:04):
of the folks to be able to getout there.
But just thinking about thetrip and thinking about what we
do and today I get to talk to MrIsaiah Thomas, and Isaiah is a
native here in Colorado and hasjust been doing some phenomenal
things and was able to go on thetrip, and so I was wanting to
do a podcast with Isaiah anyways, and so this is a great
(02:26):
opportunity just to have him tobe able to talk.
We've become friends, we'vebeen able to just talk about a
whole lot of things thathappened in our lives, and this
trip just happened to intersect,and so we went on.
You know, in the end of January, first of February, and so we
went on.
You know, in the end of January, first of February, there were
27 of us that ventured over tostarting out in Birmingham, then
(02:51):
Selma, then Montgomery, and itwas really.
We were talking aboutreconciliation and justice and
what justice means, as well asyou know, civil rights and what
does it mean in 2025, differentthan 2024?
And you know, yesterday, oryou'll see on the podcast, if
you look up the podcast fromKellen, you'll see somebody that
(03:11):
you know is getting his lifegoing and has his businesses and
that kind of stuff.
And then you know there's folksthat are.
You know, we had Josh, who's inhis early 30s, and now we have,
you know, isaiah, who's, youknow's some of the younger
generation, who wasn't alive.
I can't really say I was aliveIn the 1960s, I was born in 65,
(03:34):
but I can't say I can rememberfrom 65 to 70 and everything
that went on, because I wasthree years old.
I remember TV shows.
I think our memory plays somany tricks on us.
Isaiah, like I remember becauseI saw it on TV.
But did I see it on TV in 1967?
Or did.
I see it on TV in 1987 when itwas a repeat of the TV show
(03:56):
Right.
Then I'm like, oh, I rememberthat.
No, you don't.
I didn't remember hardlyanything when I was a three, or
maybe I do, you know, becauseour brains just play this.
But I really want to talk about,you know, the trip and where we
want to go and kind of the.
You know what led up to itbefore we actually jump into the
trip.
You know, I say, can you justtell us your story?
(04:18):
Tell us your or I guess theorigin story is what we call it
now and you know what was lifelike when you grew up.
I know you were a pastor's kidand you know maybe that's a
little bit different than otherfolks in schools that you went
to and all those wonderfulthings.
And maybe we'll start out thereand then we'll just kind of
chop it up after that.
So thank you for being on theshow, thank you for willing to
share with us all thesewonderful things that are going
(04:40):
on, not only in your life nowbut as a result of the trip.
So the floor is yours.
Can't wait to hear what you got.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you for this opportunity.
Yeah, as you were saying, I'm apassionate kid.
I grew up in Colorado, mostlyin Aurora.
I can't say I'm a Denver native.
Didn't really grow up in Denverlike that, mostly the east side
of Aurora.
Did go to George WashingtonHigh School.
Yeah, grew up in a Blackhousehold.
(05:07):
Both my parents are Black, andso just kind of the dynamic of
just pastoral living,Christianity, living like church
every day, almost every day ofthe week, to also just figuring
things out.
Colorado is a different placeand so, yeah, I grew up with
like a village, not just withinthe dynamic of church, but just
(05:31):
my family.
A lot of my grandparents helpedraise me.
You know watching me when myparents were at work.
I have an older sister andyounger brother.
I'm the middle child.
My brother is 17.
He'll graduate high school hereshortly, probably in the next
year or so.
And then my sister is 14 monthsolder than me and she lives in
Oklahoma and she's been theresince 2015.
And so she's just, yeah, livingher life, got married, all the
(05:56):
things and I'm figuring out mylife here, been doing mostly
youth ministry for the lastdecade since leaving high school
.
I originally wanted to go tothe military.
That didn't pan out the way Ithought it was going to,
unfortunately just because of amedical condition.
And so I've just really beentrusting God with my life and
(06:17):
just really been figuring outday by day did some staying with
Young Life, youth for Christ,working kind of across the city
kind of a Swiss army knife?
When it comes to things, I'mkind of plugged in a little to a
lot of places, whether it'schurch or community or outreach
or just you know anywhere I canplug myself into.
But yeah, man, I just I'm justtrying to take it day by day,
(06:42):
moment by moment.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
I love it.
I love it.
The dynamic you said you wentto George Washington High School
.
Is that what you said I did?
Okay, so you went to GW, and sothat's in the era when I was
growing up.
It was a predominantly blackhigh school.
I don't know what the dynamicswere when you went in there, and
so did you have just kind ofgetting the lay of the land?
(07:05):
Did you have a lot of, maybe,black history or talk about the
things that had happened?
Did you have some, you know,knowledge of what Alabama was
probably going to look like?
You know, what I was thinkingyesterday was, as I was, you
know, doing a podcast.
I can't remember from 1970 whenI started elementary school
because we lived in Park Hilland then my dad got an
(07:28):
affirmative action job and so wemoved out to like I-25 and
Arapahoe Road and so I went toCherry Creek High School, so
there were like 35 folks ofcolor in the whole 3,000, 3,500
school that I went to.
I thought it was a bad, it wasjust, it was what it is, but we
didn't learn anything aboutBlack history.
In fact, from my 1970, throughmy PhD, through my doctorate, I
(07:54):
don't remember ever having aBlack teacher, I've had some
Black administrators and thatkind of stuff, and so you know
that just everything we got wasfrom relatives and from people.
And so you know that justeverything we got was from
relatives and from people, andso I had a viewpoint of the
South probably different thanmaybe you had, and so maybe kind
of walk us through or talkabout, you know, maybe some of
the things you might havelearned just by growing up in
(08:14):
the community you did.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, absolutely.
So I have a completelydifferent kind of growing up.
So the first school I went towas a was a black private school
in Parqueo, and so I had allblack teachers for my first
couple of years of school, fromkindergarten to second grade
basically, and so we learned,you know, the preamble, we
(08:38):
learned the black nationalanthem, we learned kind of black
history, numbers one through ahundred in Spanish and in
English, so we learned just likekind of like just what it meant
to be American really.
And then a culture shock ofmoving to Castle Rock and living
there for a couple of years aswell and it being kind of the
(08:58):
complete different.
We didn't really learn anythingabout black history.
We didn't really learn anythingabout.
We learned about history.
We learned about how to playchess, just kind of like a whole
different dynamic.
So everyone was in this entireschool was required to learn how
to play chess, and so it's justtwo different dichotomies of
like a Black excellent andhonoring who you are and
(09:18):
learning kind of the facets oflife of both different cultures
to kind of just a whiteprivileged community, because we
lived in a community where wewere me and my sister were maybe
two out of five or six peopleof color in Castle Rock and this
is before it kind of gotdeveloped too.
So it's completely differentnow.
(09:39):
But Black history was kind ofembedded in who we were from
early into our childhood.
On.
From there I've had blackteachers far and few since then.
So I think when I moved into,we moved back to Denver, slash,
Aurora, like the Lowry area wehad a plethora of students that
have different colors, but maybeone or two different black
(10:03):
people of color or people ofcolor in elementary school and
then went to a private middleschool for a couple years and
they had different people ofcolor there but they were more
Middle Eastern.
So that was different dynamic.
And then my last year I went toPrairie and that I had again a
(10:23):
plethora of different teachersof different colors.
And then in high school I had,funny enough, just a white
person teaching Black history,but she loved people of color
and she was really passionateabout it.
It just was an awkward dynamic,because you're telling my
history to me but you don't looklike me.
So that was a weird dynamic.
(10:45):
But she but she was a very goodperson and I love Miss Rosen,
so shout out to Miss Rosen.
She was just a dynamic teacherand and she taught African
American history.
And then I had a black Englishteacher and I think that.
And then I had a black scienceteacher, but he he was African,
I don't know what part of Africa.
(11:06):
So I've seen and known of kindof the history of our country,
but not enough to be able totouch it, because we're just so
far away, like Colorado andAlabama felt so far away.
I was like, oh, that's in thepast.
You know, I have no realconnection to it.
Most of my family is fromMississippi in terms of our
history, but I'd never been.
My great grandmother had passedaway in 2014.
(11:28):
So the discussions aboutsharecropping or, you know,
being light skinned, or havingyou know slave owners, you know
family members, or being slaves,it just wasn't a conversation I
was able to have.
Also, maybe not even of age toreally understand it, but my
(11:52):
grandma and her siblings she has10 of them they all have an
understanding of what thatlifestyle was.
They grew up in Kansas and theyknew about the Mississippi
heritage and they had a goodfather and a mother who was
embedded in who they were.
So I had a good scope ofAlabama, but not necessarily
hands-on connection to it myself.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Cool.
So we're getting ready to go onthe trip and you know, scott,
you know, and everybody who'spart of it is saying okay,
isaiah, you want to go on thistrip.
What were your initial thoughts?
It's like I'm in, I can't waitto find out more.
I mean, the fact that you evenhad a class called African
American history while you werein high school is huge, right,
because it just isn't taughteverywhere, and so is it.
(12:32):
I wanted to see some of thethings I'm learning, or you just
was like I'm in because of thepeople that were you were able
to go with.
What was your initial thought?
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Mix of both, I think.
Think excitement to gosomewhere I've never been before
.
I think it's important to goplaces you've never been.
So Alabama and the South as awhole is somewhere I've never
really visited.
The people as well like, scottis a wonderful person and the
team at Issachar are just goodpeople.
But I think on the other side ofit was a little bit of
apprehension, just because ofthe state of the world and kind
(13:05):
of the racial relations thatwe're having that aren't
necessarily safe for everyone,let alone, you know, again, the
Ku Klux Klan is still existing.
There's a lot going on in theworld.
And so I was like do I reallywant to go go?
Do I really want to put myselfin a position?
(13:25):
You know?
So, like you know, I hadn'teven researched sundown towns
enough to know, like, what partof town we should be on, kind of
those things.
But uh, putting all like angstand fear to the side, I just
really wanted to have anopportunity just to learn about
the city, learn about Alabama.
I had known some folks who werefrom there and so I just wanted
to kind of get the full scope ofwhat Alabama had to offer and
(13:47):
what was going on there and youalways hear weird stories about
the South, about how it'sdifferent and it's like a little
different country within itself.
So I just really wanted toexplore the history of the world
and what had happened there,what has perspired from Martin
Luther King to the Civil RightsMovement, to all those things.
It's important just to kind ofbe where they were.
I had been to DC in October oflast year and able to stand
(14:11):
where Martin Luther King stoodand go to the African-American
Museum, and so this was justlike something.
I was like oh, I need to addmore knowledge and I need to
have more experiences to justreally walk in on myness uh,
really know my history, um, andjust explore that hey, it's dr b
and let me ask you somethingjust here, real quick.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
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You know, I've seen a lot ofpeople that are making a whole
bunch of cold calls to the wrongpeople and no one's answering.
(14:52):
No one wants to talk to you.
It might just be that you'rejust doing what you've been
doing and crossing your fingers,hoping it finally works this
year, but let me tell you what.
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(15:12):
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Thank you for watching thesepodcasts.
Now let's get back to theconversation.
Cool, so we get to the airportand now you start seeing the
people that we're going to go onthis trip with.
Was there a feeling of like, ohman, this is going to be great.
(15:57):
Or was it still like I'm notsure who these people are,
because a lot of them you hadn'tmet yet?
You know, you met others as wegot there, but was you know
because a lot of them you?
Speaker 1 (16:10):
hadn't met yet.
You know we met others as as wegot there, but was there like
this excitement or was it kindof like a?
I just got to check this outexcitement for sure.
I saw some familiar faces bj um, stephen, or some people I know
um but I was excited just tosee the people that looked like
they were going.
I think it's important whodon't look like us to go.
Obviously, I think they shouldknow the history as well, but I
think it's important for peoplewho don't look like us to go.
Obviously I think they shouldknow the history as well, but I
think it's important for peoplewho, especially if you're from
Colorado or if you grew up inColorado, again there's this
(16:31):
level of detachment that youdon't have with your history,
because the distance withinitself is there.
Obviously, I grew up in Denverand there's still some Black
history there, but it justdoesn't, it's not, it doesn't
sit.
The same.
There's not as much a claim asif you were to go to Alabama,
mississippi, georgia, kind ofthose places.
And so I was excited lookingaround at pastors and you know
(16:54):
historians and you know blackleaders in the community and
people who really do love theculture, and I was excited for
those things.
And even people who might nothave the same opinions or
thoughts or feelings as us.
That would have been cool too.
I don't know if we had anypeople who were Muslim or
anything like that who came onthe trip, but I think it's
important to have differentperspectives of people who love
history and love black people tocome on to the trip.
(17:16):
So I was excited, cool.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
So we fly there.
We get there Kaelin reminded meand BJ reminded me it was a
rough landing.
I don't remember the landing atall, but I guess it was.
It was.
It was pretty rough as we.
I sat down and, uh, we were onthat small plane that you know
what's not like, what a lot offolks are used to when we get
there to do the shuttleworthairport.
One of the things that at leastKellen said yesterday is, uh,
(17:41):
where we kind of starteddeveloping relationships as a
group, as a team, was aroundthat barbecue machine.
That was, you know, a vendingmachine at the baggage claim
where we're waiting for our vans.
When you saw that and saw thepeople reacting, did you feel
kind of more comfortable?
(18:01):
Because what I kind of thoughtabout yesterday is we all came
around something common that weall knew about.
Right, we all think about andknow about barbecue, and so now
we're comparing stories tobarbecue all over the world that
we've ever had or not had, andwho's got the best barbecue, and
we're kind of having some funin that moment.
Was that something that waskind of fun for you, just to
(18:24):
kind of get to know peoplearound some barbecue, or yeah,
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Breaking bread is everything, man.
I think it's embedded in howyou connect with people.
So that was cool.
I personally wouldn't have ateanything out of a vending
machine, so kudos to those whodid.
But yeah, barbecue is bestsmoked not smoked in machine,
smoked in a smoker.
So kudos to, but it is.
(18:50):
It's those moments because youhave the debates of well, who
has the best barbecue, where'sthe best barbecue from?
Is it Texas, is it Tennessee?
Is it vinegar-based, is ittomato-based?
You get those people who havedifferent perspectives and
opinions and thoughts and you'reyou're like okay, let's see who
who's, who really knows theirstuff and who's just been like
you know, they've had a littlebit of you.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Yeah, that's a great way for us to just start coming
together as a group and as ateam around the, you know, an
object or a thing or a thingthat just happened to be where
we had to wait Was kind of neat.
So we go to the hotel, then weend up and we have our first
session with Jeff Campbell, whois the Emancipation Theater, and
he kind of goes through storyand we even get to have a group,
(19:33):
you know, start creating astory together and we're meeting
with different groups andstarting to learn people, was
there anything in that sessionor anything that you said oh man
, this is, this is going to be agood trip, uh, or this is going
to be, is this whole trip goingto be?
Like this guy?
You know, we kind of don't knowwhat's happening.
You know, you haven't, you know, other than we got to the hotel
and now we're talking aboutthis story, stuff, what, how did
(19:55):
you react or feel after orduring that, that, that session
that we had?
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Oh, I loved it, Uh, in the storytelling competitions
all the time.
So just to see Jeff and hiselement was cool.
The storytelling part wasprobably one of the most
influential things.
It's just because you have tohave people who are actively
paying attention and doing theirpart and you can't control them
and they can't control you andall you can do is play your part
.
So we were trying to get allthese certain words to fill into
(20:21):
the story.
People were so worried aboutthe words that we were
forgetting that we had to tellthe story, and so just to have
that dynamic of how stories aretold, how people connect, how we
connect through story, was justreally important, and even just
the way that we all had tointroduce ourselves and connect
with each other breaking breadover food the food was pretty
(20:42):
good.
Just to have each other in thespace being present.
I think often that's the hardpart too in the fast where we
live in is like people arealways going, going, going or
the attention span is minimal.
But with the ability just tosit and be, participate and tell
a story and engage with eachother was just super awesome to
(21:03):
be in, so I was excited.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
And I think that was the first part where we started
just exploring the tensionbetween races and tension in
2025 and what's going on.
And you know, we were able tolook globally, nationally, and
then you know, community-wide asto we just began that
conversation.
We didn't do a whole lot withit, but we were able to do it
(21:25):
within our own space andallowing folks to spend that
time and tell their story fromtheir perspective and who they
were, I thought was was reallycool.
So we go back and then the nextday we do another session kind
of similar and and dig more intothat, and then we decide we're
going to go on this tour.
We're going to go in the tourof Birmingham Alabama.
We're going to go on this tour.
(21:45):
We're going to go in the tour ofBirmingham Alabama and we have
Ray Clay Tours who is taking usand we have this you know, kind
of like what you said in highschool where it's a white
gentleman who is now going toteach us the history of
Birmingham and take us to placesthat some of us had never even
thought about.
You know the famous places likethe 16th Street Church.
You know the famous places likethe 16th Street Church.
(22:07):
You know that was a famousplace.
We've all probably heard aboutit, but maybe you've heard about
the theater, but ShuttleworthHouse where it got bombed was
probably not in that community.
Kind of walk us through yourfeelings as we began to embark
on that tour, and what you werethinking it was going to be and
then what it ended up being.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yeah, I knew it was going to probably be
heart-wrenching, just becauseyou're hearing history, a sad
history at that.
What I didn't expect it to bewas eerie and kind of sad, like
the environment itself, becauseas we're going through the city,
you just see the downcline ofit all, just the fact that the
city is not thriving, thatthere's really no people out
(22:50):
here, that there's no realeconomic happenings here.
That was kind of a duh moment,but it's also like you wouldn't
know unless you go, as we weregoing through the different
places and we're hearing Claytalk kind of a duh moment, but
it's also like you wouldn't knowunless you go, as we were going
through the different placesand we're hearing Clay talk.
I think Clay was just a verydynamic teacher professor in
(23:15):
this way because he was just sodirect.
He was just very honest, he wasvery to the point, he didn't
really sugarcoat anything.
He didn't sugarcoat anything atall, actually.
And so just to have him just behonest about what had happened
there, honest about his storyand his connection to the city
and him living there and why hedoes what he does, and then just
kind of again him living thereand why he does what he does,
(23:39):
and then just kind of again theplanter feet in places, in
spaces all across Birmingham,was just crazy.
So whether it's we're on thebus and we're looking at the
houses that all had been bombed,we're looking at the different
neighborhoods as we're riding onthe bus, or we're looking over
and you talk about well, thisplace got bombed and this
happened here, and this is whereShuttlesworth, like all the
just everything, culminating.
It was just, it washeartbreaking as well as it was
(24:02):
just eye-opening because it'sjust like this is not just a
story in a book, this isactually something that happened
here.
This is like this is truthbeing lived out, truth being
lived out.
And so I think I was definitelyprocessing just like the fact
that, like how truthfuleverything we had heard in books
(24:24):
and had been watching on TV hadbeen, but it's a different
dynamic when you're actuallyputting your place in your
physical body somewhere.
So I struggled with having hopefor the future as well as
mourning what was.
It was a very give and takekind of moment, bittersweet for
sure.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Yeah, is there one or two things that you could say
okay after the tour?
These are two things thatprobably impacted me more than
any other part of the tour, orand maybe why that was and how
you had that connection withthose particular pieces in that.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Yeah, I think all the facts, just the fact that there
was so much information thatwas being shared, that impacted
me because you're learning somuch in such a small amount of
time, but I think anything thatnothing hit me more than the
last maybe two minutes with Clayand his quote that he always
(25:22):
instituted and just how he hadlost hope in his and just the
deep feeling you felt when hejust talked about hopelessness,
Because I think I can understandthat more than anything.
I think in the time, in thetimes we're living in and the
history of our country and theway that the world is, hope can
be far and few, especially withyou know, whether the political
(25:46):
system we're looking at, theeconomic system or just, you
know, homelessness, the state ofthe world and just any and
everything can just cause you tobe more and more hopeless, and
so I just sat with that.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
And I can you know, for me, because I was able to go
the year before and I, you know, I got to meet Clay, and this
is the second time here in Clayand you know Clay doesn't change
, I mean he's, he's Clay.
You know over and over, as he'sdone thousands of these same
tours.
But I think what was differentfor me, and maybe you can tie it
here, is when I went in 2024,it was before our presidential
(26:25):
election.
When I went in 2025, we justhad a presidential election
where there was so muchdivisiveness in our country over
this election.
And now we're sitting in a cityand we're learning about
politicians, we're learningabout police chiefs, we're
learning about the politicalsystem of the 1960s, and then
(26:47):
now I have the ability tocompare it to what's happening
right now, in 2025, inBirmingham, Alabama, and it
didn't seem as much of adifferent, like there wasn't a
whole lot different inBirmingham.
It didn't seem that way.
I mean there was, I mean, youknow, but it was so quiet and so
(27:08):
still so segregated and stillso, you know, project housing on
one side of the street andnicer houses on the other side
of the street, but then thisdecrepitation of a city where
there was nothing going on.
There's, like you said, noe-commerce, no people walking
around.
It didn't look like there wasany business being done.
Do you think that election orwhat we've just gone through as
(27:30):
a country, affected some of theway that you viewed Birmingham?
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Yes and no.
I think initially yes becauseyou're like okay, how did it
affect the South?
Because we always talk aboutthe South as like it's already a
divisive, different place.
But then, when you look atBirmingham as a whole, it just
didn't feel any different.
I felt like, because of the wayClay had described it, it was
like this is just how it's been.
Once the economy and all themoney had left, you get this
(28:02):
dead grass, these uncared forplaces, you get the exit.
The mass exit is results.
And so I think it was like oh,this is what happens when
division takes place.
Results, you know.
And so I didn't.
I think it was like oh, this iswhat happens when you know when
division takes place and then,after division takes place, when
choices are made and what thosethose choices, uh, have result
(28:25):
in.
Because, as he was talkingabout it, he said like, when the
people why people decide toleave the economy, left with
them because they were kind ofhelping you know the city as a
whole.
And so I was like, oh, I guessyou know, but it then just in a
global or a national way.
It's like oh, this is whathappens when you, when you don't
like what's going on and youdecide to just go ahead and
(28:46):
leave.
Leave the things in shambles,wow so.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
So we finished the tour and we decided we're gonna
go meet, meet Janice Kelsey thatevening, and a different
perspective, because JaniceKelsey had lived during that
time and so maybe kind of justwalk through, you know, I don't
know what the expectation was,but when she started talking and
(29:13):
then her brother was there andthey started talking about those
times and then the son wasthere as a result of things that
mom had done, you know whatkind of impact or what were your
thoughts from from that time.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Yeah, I think it's different to hear about history,
but it's a different.
It's even different when you aretalking to living history,
people who are there, who peopleexperienced it, whether it's
you know, you talk, talk, peoplewho are at ground zero at 9, 11
, or you know, even you know,colorado history, somebody who's
at the theater shooting, butthey survived or they were the
(29:42):
other opposite end of the thing.
It's just, it's different tohave those conversations versus
being, you know, in proximity.
So just to have thoseconversations with her, to hear
her story and see, like, theimpact that youth and children
have versus adults, and just tosee that we all have a part to
play, was super cool.
But just also to see, you know,hear and hear about the sadness
(30:02):
of, like her, being, you know,two or maybe one or two
different degrees away from the16th street bombing.
You know she's like, oh, wewent to school together, I knew,
I, we, you know, we knew whothese people were.
These weren't just figurativebeings.
This wasn't marvel captainamerica, this was, you know,
susie from down the street, youknow, just to see.
(30:23):
That was very different, um butit was encouraging because again
, she gets to tell her story andit doesn't die like the truth
doesn't die because, uh, it'sbeen hidden or it's been
whitewashed or whatever you wantto call it.
It's actually continuing to moveon, and whether it's just her
brother or her son or just thefamily dynamic, you get to see
the fact that just becausesomething bad happened doesn't
(30:47):
mean we don't talk about it.
Actually, we talk about it moreand we actually get to
acknowledge what truth tookplace in our city, and also as
we deal with traumas of life andthat she didn't, and also as we
deal with, you know, traumas oflife that she didn't have to
stay there.
You know, when I think about,like rosa parks and having to
leave her, leave, uh, her state,like she, her life was never
the same.
She couldn't just be, uh,another worker somewhere else.
(31:10):
She was, you know, idolized andepitomized for this one moment
for the rest of her life, and sothe fact that she was able to
move on and have kids and liveher life and grow, to go, be all
the things that she could be,was beautiful too, because you
don't have to let a particularseason of your life or moment in
your life define you.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Were you able to talk to her or her brother?
Or anybody afterwards, or justas, or just part of the thing
that we were doing, did you getany time alone with them?
Speaker 1 (31:41):
I did want to but I didn't really get a chance to.
But just to hear her story, toask her questions, to see where
her heart and head were, to seethe joy in her heart I know she
had had a lot going on in thelast year Just to see her in
good spirits was beautifulwithin itself and I think it
just provides another layer ofhope.
You know this too shall pass isjust kind of where you know we
(32:06):
are in our lives.
Speaker 2 (32:08):
And we were meeting at.
You know where we met her andgot to talk.
It was one of the biggerchurches that's in the Alabama
area and I know, as you are ayouth pastor and think about
church and the dynamics, did younotice anything about the
church or how it was laid out orthe people that were there that
seemed anything different thanhow we go to church here?
(32:29):
Or was it just another placewhere you could worship?
What was your thought of that?
I guess the atmosphere there?
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yeah, well, the size gets you first because it's huge
.
It was a huge church, I think.
Also, I haven't been in Blackchurch in so long and I don't
mind the multicultural church orinterdenominational churches.
I think it's beautiful for sure.
But just to be in a blackchurch was super cool and even
(32:59):
to hear about the expansion oflike hey, like we're doing this
and this, like just what blackchurch meant in a former time,
being lived out in a in apresent time, was beautiful to
see because it wasn't just, youknow, sunday, like it was not
what it is now, where it feelslike, oh, it's just Sunday and
then maybe a Wednesday nightBible study.
(33:19):
Actually it's invigorated intothe community.
It's like, oh no, we're doingthis with the kids and we're
doing this with the elderly andwe're doing this for we're
raising this money to go sendthese people to this place and
we're sending kids to camp.
It's embedded in what thecommunity is already doing.
It was just cool to see thathappen, and it was.
(33:39):
You know, it just sucks that wedon't get to experience that
here.
I think that was also the hardpart of it.
It's just like I would love forthere to be a Black church
dynamic that is embedded inColorado.
That gives us an opportunity tohave kids to know their history
(34:00):
but to support the community.
I think oftentimes the churchesout here unfortunately become
siloed because they all havecertain missions that they're
trying to accomplish that don'tnecessarily align with another
church, or somebody has to bethe head of it, or they don't
necessarily know how to lockarms.
But this church seemed to knowhow to do that within their own
community.
(34:20):
I'm sure there's probably otherchurches within that community.
It was dark when we got thereso I couldn't necessarily see
the lay of the land, but I'msure they were just doing so
much the way that the church hasbeen called to do that.
I'm just like man.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
This is beautiful yeah, and just like you said,
that dynamic of community seemsto be lost, at least in our
communities, here in the modernchurch where so much is online
or so much is.
You know, you could tell thiscommunity wrapped herself around
this church and that churchwrapped itself around that
(34:52):
community and it was a placewhere people could gather and
people were gathering and stuff.
So I thought that was reallyneat and so next day we go to,
we have a few more sessions andthen we move and head towards
Selma, and so we get to Selmaand there's this bridge, the
Pettus Bridge.
We've watched the movie Selma,but it's one thing to see it on
(35:14):
TV and another thing to bestanding on it.
What were your thoughts aswe're walking across this bridge
?
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Yeah, again, it's the ability to be present with
what's going on.
You know, when you're standingat the place where Dr King
delivers his, I have a Dreamspeech to walking across the
bridge where he was fighting forfreedom.
It's a different dynamic, for me, because it's just freedom
(35:44):
feels so far away, especiallywhen you have people who died
for freedom.
When I think about theassassinations of so many Black
people who are just fighting forthe right to live or the rights
to have everything that theyshould have as an American or as
a person, it just it washeart-wrenching, because it's
just another moment of like man.
(36:04):
Did he know, like did Dr Kingknow, what was on the other side
of walking on this bridge?
They know the value of his lifewalking across the bridge.
Did they know what this wasgonna lead to?
You know it.
Just.
It reevaluates for me just thecounting the cost.
Is it easy?
Are you fighting for somethingor are you just living day to
(36:27):
day?
Or are you in survival mode?
And just the fact that a lot ofpeople in my generation, we are
often so far off from theability to think about freedom
and think about justice becausewe are so embedded in a survival
mode or so embedded inhopelessness or embedded in just
our situations that there'snothing further than us to fight
(36:48):
for had someone and a group ofpeople who are actively looking
for more, and we get to bedirect descendants of those
things and directly affected bythose things.
It was just beautiful, but alsoit was just it was.
It was sad.
It was just sad again, becausewhy are we having to fight for
(37:12):
something that should naturallybe our own?
Speaker 2 (37:15):
Yeah, you think, thousands of bridges all over
the world and the country,millions of bridges, and you
know that's just a bridge, butthat bridge has so much
significance into, you know, andfor me, you know, I kind of
said in the bridge, this time alittle bit differently than last
time, because the first timeI'd watch Selma, then I'd go to
(37:37):
the bridge and, ok, you know,this bridge isn't as big as it
looks in the movie and all thosepeople are walking through.
This time, because I watchedSelma again and I had already
been to the bridge, selma made anew because now I can, you know
, I'm watching the movie, it's alittle bit different, and so,
but just the significance.
And then that, walking backfrom the end of the bridge to
the Amy Church and just thinking, you know, I was thinking this
(38:00):
time, what were the folks whowere going on this march,
thinking as they were, you know,and when the march actually
happened, that our bloody cityalready happened.
So the next time they're doingit, they're going, we could do
this and die.
The next time they're doing it,they're going, we could do this
and die.
And we're willing to walk fromthis AME church.
We're going to walk over thisbridge that's named after this
(38:22):
really bad man, and on the otherside is this group of Army
National Guard folks that hateme and I'm still going to go
through it, and you stand thereand go.
Oh my gosh, they were willingand I thought to myself, was I
willing or would I have beenwilling?
(38:42):
And I hope I would have been.
I mean, I can't go back to thattime and say I did it, but I
don't know.
Based on what I know now andthinking about your family and
thinking about my kids andthinking about my wife, all the
dynamics of my life that are soimportant, would I have packed
up a suitcase, willing to walkfor three or four days, you know
(39:04):
, to fight something that thisinjustice is happening.
So the AME church.
So now we walk over to the AMEchurch and it's just quiet.
It's like you know, obviouslynot open because it's nighttime.
Any thoughts when you got tothat church and it's just quiet.
It's like you know, obviouslyit's not open because it's
nighttime.
Any thoughts when you got tothat church and about you and
you just walked the bridge, thatkind of stuff.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
Yeah, I think the dilapidated parts of where we
walked through were just like,man, it's never.
I've never been to a ghost town, I've never been to something
so worn down.
Whether you know, I've heardabout Chicago, places like those
, places like that, where it'slike it's just a ghost town, and
so to actually experience itwas just weird, it was again an
airy feeling.
But to get to the church andjust see like okay, this wasn't
(39:46):
just a stroll of like you walkedto here and there, it's like
actually, and the amount ofpeople, just like the amount of
people who are willing to againfight opposition, is that I
think we don't necessarily havein the same dynamic, you know,
people like a physical, actualphysical, uh, threat to your
livelihood, um, and so, yeah, itwas just, it was, it was cool
(40:08):
to be there, but also to seethat um, the again the honor,
respect that was given, that'sstill being maintained today,
because it's one thing to say,oh, this happened, let's give
honor to it.
But to actually have his statuestill be there and the monuments
, just like the names, likeagain something holding weight
(40:30):
today that meant so much thenstill having meaning now is
super life-giving.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
Yeah, so cool.
So then we we we leave thechurch and we go have a dinner
together and we were stillcreating relationship and still
talking about story and gettingto know each other.
And I know what's coming and Iknow that the next day is going
to be something that's probablyhard to go through.
So I wanted to make sure thatwe fulfill some kind of
enjoyment and some fun the nightbefore.
So and I think everybody gotthat and you know we're at this
(41:00):
restaurant, you know it's aMexican restaurant and those
people work so hard to be ableto serve us and I think we just
super enjoyed our time together.
And then the next day we startdriving to Montgomery and I have
a guy named Dr Mack who comeson and he and he kind of shares
with us maybe some of theinsights of history, what types
of things we might see at themuseum, any thoughts on Mack's
(41:21):
talk or things that you rememberfrom it that you may have known
or may not have known afterhearing all the work that he did
in order to lift up folks ofcolor in his calendar and these
things that we've had.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Yeah, I think the depth of truth that he knew like
I think we often talk abouthistory and the facts, but the
fact that he just knew so muchand that he wouldn't sugarcoat,
it was what I appreciated,because there is a little bit of
cussing and a little bit ofjust like he's, just like this
is what it is, and I appreciatedthat because, um, I think the
(41:58):
thing that often is missing isjust the ability to give just
unfiltered truth for there to bechange, and so his ability to
develop this calendar, to do thehistorical studying, to
acknowledge the hardships andthe truth and the dates, and
just to see a physicalmanifestation of hard work and
(42:20):
dedication put into knowingwhat's actually happened, which
is so super encouraging.
And, you know, and it was aninvitation and not just to, you
know, put it up somewhere andhave it, but it was an
invitation to actuallyexperience the fact that this is
something that somebody hadtook the time to really dedicate
, to want to share with others,to not just hold it in and
(42:40):
become again a silo or isolated,but actually share with the
world, like this is what's goingon, this is what has happened,
and again, a level of blood likeit was respectful, even in his
ability to share the truth.
It wasn't like I was offended,it was like, oh man, he could
have said that differently.
It was actually man.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
That was, that was a way to say it cool.
So we get to the museum.
You've been now to theafrican-american museum in dc so
you, you've seen that, you'vekind of experienced what that is
and you're probably feelinglike this is going to be similar
or close to that museum.
Um, talk to me about the, themuseum, and maybe even make that
(43:19):
comparison, because the folkswe've talked to so far haven't
been able to make thatcomparison of the two and maybe
kind of walk us through some ofthe things that you saw and
heard that maybe be a little bitdifferent than the other museum
or just what I guess maybesurprised you that you didn't,
that you saw that you weren'tthinking you were going to that
(43:42):
you didn't, that you saw thatyou weren't thinking you were
going to.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
Yeah, I think, um, so I also saw the holocaust museum
in dc, so it's like I have adifferent lens as well.
Yeah, when walking intoafrican-american museum in dc,
you have a lot of joy, like it'slike a very upbeat happy place.
The basement has the soul food,um, you're hearing, you know
beyonce and like a whole bunchof different artists as you go
throughout the museum.
So you're, you're exploring thehistory in a different way.
(44:07):
They had the and I think atthat point they had the emmett
till um images and like stuff,like they were focusing on him.
So there was a lot there, um,but it was completely different
when we were in.
Uh, because it's it's, it's it'sjust sadness, it's just
(44:27):
brutality, it's it's violence,it's harsh, it's, it's in your
face.
Whether you're going to um kindof the tombstones that are
hanging at the lynching museum,part of it, or if you're going
inside, you're seeing just likethe dynamics of the slave ships
and how they got here, or justlike the entire timeline that
(44:48):
you're able to see, whether it'sbe picking up the phone call to
talk to convicts who have beenwrongly convicted, or you're
getting the talk, you knowhaving an interpretation of what
the slaves were feeling orthinking, and you step into a
certain room and it's like acell.
So you get this eerie feeling.
Contrary to even the HolocaustMuseum, which they're both kind
(45:12):
of, the Holocaust Museum is huge, but it just doesn't feel as
real as something that happenedin your own country to your own
people.
That directly affects you to thepoint where we're at the
lynching museum and, um, joshsees a name and the name is of a
(45:37):
person that belongs directly tohim, and you just feel that
it's like another gut punch,because it's like this is it
again?
This isn't far off.
This is something directlyaffecting because josh was my
roommate, so it's just anotherthing.
You're like man.
This is directly affecting me,but also it just speaks to the
(45:59):
fact that, like there is alwaysgoing to be something worth
fighting for.
You just have to be willing toput yourself out there to fight
for it and so just have that bea truth and reality of and a
reminder, because I think, again, we get caught up, so caught up
in life that we we robourselves of opportunity to be
like you know what.
Actually, there's something moreimportant, there's something
bigger than me that I should befighting for, whether it's me,
(46:21):
or it's my family, or it'swrongful convictions.
You were at the wrongfulconvictions.
The year is a car.
Um, there's someone somewhereneeding your voice to be added
to the conversation and you haveto be willing to use your voice
, and sometimes not even yourvoice.
Sometimes you just have to bewilling to step in Like.
I think there's a power insilence and just action within
(46:42):
itself that we can miss if wedon't put ourselves in those
positions.
So I think I was grateful forthe opportunity.
But also, as you were beginningyour walk through the museum,
there is a acknowledgement oflike the truth and the distance
and the depth of how far back itgoes.
And then if you get to the uh,the beautiful part of I didn't
(47:06):
get to get on the boat, but yougo to the, the outside museum
you get to really see thatthere's still um power in, in
joy and in happiness and inchoice, and there's still a
freedom dynamic that's happeningon both sides of it, whether
the freedom was robbed or thefreedom was chosen, and it's
(47:29):
just in the different dynamics.
So I was blown away, especiallywhen you get to like the big
wall in the outside with all thenames and all the people who
were now free and what thatmeant to be free and just the
ability to change your name andwhat that meant.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
I think both museums celebrate getting through it.
But the Equal Justice Museumreally lets you understand what
folks went through.
It's one thing to say, yeah,this was bad when we went
through.
It's one thing to go, wow,we're talking to somebody who
really went through it.
Or just to you know that bigscreen at the beginning that has
(48:08):
just the ocean, and realizingthat somebody was taken from
their home and saying what if Iwas taken, like right now, over
and be on a ship for three orfour months and then, or a month
, whatever it is, and then neverto see anybody that I grew or
knew up with ever again?
You know, and then having tostart with was it'd be like,
(48:30):
what would that be?
Because it gives you that, itallows you to have that feeling,
you know, whereas, whereas theyou know the museum in dc just
celebrate, hey, yes, this ispart of my heritage, this is,
you know, we've made it through.
We're not all the way done yet,but we still.
You know this is we got to jumpthe broom and you know all the
things that are the cool partsof it.
And then you walk out of thismuseum.
(48:51):
Just, I guess you know for me,angry at both times still that
we've only come a little bit.
I mean, we haven't come as faras what the dream was.
We haven't come as far as maybewe'd want to be.
It's still a process.
We still have issues that aregoing on.
So you get down, we get downwith the trip.
(49:12):
We have this last gatheringtogether as we kind of talk and
that one kind of felt, as we hadwhite brothers and sisters and
Black folks that were there thathad just come to the museum
decompressing.
It seemed like it was.
I'm glad we did it, but therewas tension in the air.
There was, you know, whether itwas Josh finding his family or
(49:35):
James just going.
I'm going through this stuffthat feels like this my whole
life.
How do I reconcile?
What were your thoughts?
As we're finalizing our storyand relationships?
I'm glad that we have themabout.
I'm in this room and now I haveto go home and be in rooms like
this all over again.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
Yeah, I think it left me with a choice to make about
how I wanted to engage withpeople whether it was Black
people or whether it was whitepeople or just going home to
deal with myself, Because I camehome and I was thinking about
just working as a self and I hadnever felt more like a slave.
Until after I left I was likeman, I'm just going to do all
(50:19):
this work.
I'm just going to continueworking the same way that these
people have fought for our lives.
They're just working.
There was no culmination ofanything but today, tomorrow,
and this is what it was, and soI was struggling with that.
I was like, okay, I want to dosomething more than just go to
work every day.
I want to do something morethan just um clock in, clock out
(50:43):
and put money towards bills,like it just felt.
Yeah, it's a struggle there,for sure, um, but I also wanted
to choose to be, um, loving andkind and be a peacemaker, not a
peacekeeper, um, and I think,oftentimes, in order to do that,
you have to be willing tolisten and not really willing to
talk.
So oftentimes, you're like, man, you talked today, I'm like,
(51:03):
yeah, but the reason why I'moften quiet is because, often so
, there's somebody in the roomwho's not willing to speak, who
needs an opportunity, andoftentimes it's not me.
I'm like I have a decent gift ofgab so I don't feel that it's
necessary.
I've got plenty of people in myfamily who love to talk and
talk a lot.
I'm kind of just like hands offin that way, but I think I felt
(51:28):
it.
I felt James, his angst, hisfrustration, his anger, and then
also him being a father, himbeing a husband there's
different levels to it of I haveto go home to my wife and look
her in the face and tell her Ilove her and care for her, but
be angry.
And so it just talks about yourmanhood and how you handle
those things.
(51:48):
And then I also felt Jason,when he was like why are you?
I forgot what his name I thinkit was.
Speaker 2 (51:56):
His name is David, yeah, yeah, whenid started
speaking, he was like hey, he'slike why are you like?
Speaker 1 (52:02):
you know, I felt his, his frustration.
He was like why are youspeaking when we just went
through all these things, youknow I I understood that.
Or if it was josh's feelings ofyou know the biggest amount of
anger, but still wanted to lovepeople, um, I think I felt all
those things but, um, I think,more than anything, I just
wanted to deal with the thingsthat were going on with me
(52:25):
inside, where there was theconflict of do I really want to
deal with white people in acertain way?
Do I know how to love them well, or do I know how to receive
their love?
Speaker 2 (52:34):
Because there's some days where I'm like no, I can't.
Speaker 1 (52:35):
There's some days where like, and also knowing
that it's okay to feel thosethings, it's okay to feel both
sides of it, because the refusalto feel those things on either
side actually doesn't bring anygrowth, doesn't bring any change
.
It actually makes you even morestagnant than before if you
don't actually feel both sides.
It's the beauty of being human,because it can be very
(52:59):
traumatizing to sit at themuseum for hours because we were
there for a full day.
It can be very traumatizingjust to sit in it, but it can
also be very healing to be takenout of it and then talk about
it and feel all the things,think of all the things and then
decide what you want to do fromthere.
Wow, that's cool.
Speaker 2 (53:20):
So we come back and now Isaiah is a different man
because of some of theexperience that we had, and we
all are different for any of theexperience that we have.
But we're thinking of okay, howdo I interact?
How do I change?
How do I not just go to work?
Just to go to work, what?
What are some of the things youknow we've been back 100 days
that you may have changed, orsome things that you have a
(53:41):
vision for as the future moves,on, things that you would like
to see happening and that you'dbe a part of here in our area,
in our community?
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (53:52):
I'm a big fan of Robert Jelanis, so reading his
first book was very eye-opening,just because of obviously it's
a historical fiction book basedon Denver, so that has been
beautiful, and going to thewrong fiction thing has been
awesome.
I've been off of social mediafor a while now and so that's
been life-giving as well.
I think it just takes theability just to separate
(54:15):
yourself from some things.
I'm in therapy, so I'm talkingto my therapist about all the
things going on in life, so it'sjust really been character
development.
It's just been really dealingwith what you're dealing with.
Even one of the questions youhad in the questionnaire before
we got on was how do you definetrauma and how do you deal with
it and what is the goal to healthose traumas and building
(54:35):
resilience.
It was just like it takes justsitting in the quiet.
It takes sometimes just sitting, you know feeling sitting in
the darkness but not choosing tobe dark and acknowledging the
light in you know, in the littlesparks of light that you know
life has to offer.
So I'm not sure what I want todo with all of it, though I
(54:57):
think there's something that I'mtrying to produce out of it,
whether it's internal orexternal, but I truly think, as
I'm back home, I really want tolock arms with people who have a
vision for how they want tochange the city for everyone,
whether it's young, old, black,white or indifferent Just who
really wants to go out and be apeacemaker and love people.
(55:19):
Well.
Speaker 2 (55:23):
You talked about doing.
Are you doing stuff with PastorGelinas at Colorado Community
Church?
Are you doing youth ministrysomewhere else?
Where are you at right now asfar as ministry and the things
that you're trying to moveforward with it?
Speaker 1 (55:37):
Yeah, again, I'm kind of a joker of all trades right
now.
I guess I'm tied to CCC.
For sure it's important to JoeInes in any way I can.
I've bought both his books.
I'm looking forward to thethird one that's coming out.
I've sat down with him a coupletimes just to talk about his
heart and his passion towardswrongful convictions.
(55:58):
I've even got an opportunity totalk to jason the most recently
, uh.
Second most recently, excuse me, a person who's been helped by
the uh innocence project outhere in color.
Yeah, um, I'm trying to justkeep my ear to the ground.
I'm not sure, uh, what to do orwho to do it with.
I've worked with the history ofCarl, history of churches out
(56:21):
here with Jerry Mackey.
I'm kind of tied with a lot ofthe churches out here, whether
it's a Christian Bible church,the Connection Church Refuge
with Stephen Cartwright, so I'mreally just trying to be plugged
in as much as possible.
Indicative is mostly in a youthyouth lens, just because that's
(56:42):
my expertise at the moment, butchurch lens as a whole.
Because I've been in church mywhole life, you know I probably
count on my hands and toes howmany times I've missed church on
a Sunday, you know, kind ofthing.
But I think, more than anything, I really want to change the
way that the church is for meand for the people around me,
that it can be everything we sawin Alabama with Dr Kelsey's
(57:06):
knowledge.
It's meant to serve thecommunity, it's meant to serve
others.
It's not just a pop-in, pop-outkind of thing that we've made
it to be in the last couple ofyears post-pandemic, wow.
Speaker 2 (57:18):
What didn't we talk about that you wanted to make
sure that we covered in thisconversation today.
Speaker 1 (57:25):
I think we covered most of it.
I think my prayer and goal isfor the Journey to Freedom
podcast and just the next tripis that we bring more Black men
in the room Outside of RhondaWilliams, who's a lovely person.
I think it's important to justhave another perspective in the
room that speaks to a dynamic,and I hope that she would be
able to bring some moreenlightenment that we didn't
(57:46):
necessarily get, because I thinkwith a lot of Black men in the
room it can be very angry and itcan be limited emotions.
I think we're able to feel alot of things but not
necessarily have the ability tocommunicate those things.
I think we're able to feel alot of things, but I necessarily
have the ability to communicatethose things.
And so I think I hope we havepeople who are able to kind of
articulate and communicate thosefeelings of you know, disgust
(58:07):
or anguish, or lost ordepression, maybe communicate
those very well.
So Wow.
Speaker 2 (58:15):
So you would go back and maybe even bring somebody
for the experiences.
Is, you know, a worthwhileexperience that you think for a
whole lot of folks right?
Speaker 1 (58:23):
Absolutely.
I think it's important, whetherit's my grandma who is a she's
76, or it's my brother who is 17.
I think it's important forpeople to again talk about your
history, experience your history, but also know where you need
to go, where you can go fromhere.
(58:44):
You know, I think you know.
We always talk about wherewould Martin Luther King be had
he not been assassinated.
We talk about what Malcolm Xcould have produced if he had
not gone.
You know what the Black PantherParty would have done had it
not necessarily been disbandedor in the way it was.
Yeah, oh, oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (59:01):
Well, thank you so much for for being a part of
this today.
Thank you for, uh, sharing yourheart, sharing your mind.
This isn't going to be the end.
We're going to do this journey.
We're going to take more peopleuh, you know and you know, I I
hope that the folks that arelistening and this is the first
episode you've ever seen thereare some other really good ones.
Please go ahead and subscribeand all those wonderful things
(59:25):
that you do to notifications andthat kind of stuff, to make
sure that you're a part of whatwe do.
If you want to get moreinformation or make comments,
please go ahead and do that.
Isaiah, it has been, just like Isaid, a pleasure to have you on
today and to have you, and forthose of you, I want to always
(59:46):
end with this that you're God'sgreatest gift.
You are, and he believes in you.
He wants you, if you allow himto, he wants to love on you the
best that he possibly can.
So you guys have a wonderful,just amazing, incredible day and
we'll look forward to talkingto you on the next one.
Any one last closing thought,isaiah.
Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
No, God bless All right, God bless.
Speaker 2 (01:00:18):
We'll see you on the next one.
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