Ready to explore history that hits home? Visit www.brianearnold.com to join the journey!
Kelyn Lanier shares his eye-opening experience on a civil rights trip to Alabama, from Birmingham’s heavy past to Selma’s iconic bridge.
Hear how meeting Janice Kelsey and visiting the Equal Justice Museum shifted his perspective and fueled his drive to act.
What happens when history stops being just words in a book and becomes something you can touch, feel, and walk through? In this powerful episode, business owner Kellen Lanier takes us through his transformative journey to Alabama's civil rights landmarks and how it fundamentally changed his understanding of America.
From an unexpected barbecue vending machine that brought strangers together to the soul-shaking experience of standing on the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma, Kellen's vivid recollections bring us along on a journey that's both deeply personal and universally important. The encounter with Janice Kelsey, who participated in the Children's Marches as a teenager, proves particularly haunting. Her challenge – asking what we're doing with the vastly greater resources we have compared to what she had in the 1960s – echoes throughout the conversation.
Most moving is Kellen's description of the Equal Justice Initiative's Legacy Museum, where history becomes impossible to intellectualize away. "I think about that museum at least once or twice a week, every week, since then," he reveals. His raw, honest emotion watching others confront this history – "Good, I hope she cries the entire time and tells everybody about this" – reflects the necessary discomfort required for genuine understanding.
This isn't just a travelogue but a testament to how confronting our past changes how we live in the present. Since returning, Kellen has become more politically engaged, testifying at the state capitol and advocating for comprehensive Black history education. As he puts it, "Knowing that you have, comparatively, infinitely more resources than Janice and her brother did... but knowing that you're facing the same thing. I'm like, it's just their grandkids, but it's the same thing."
Join us for this moving conversation that will make you question what you know about American history and what responsibility we all bear in creating a more just future. Have you truly confronted our shared history?
This story connects history to today’s challenges, inspiring action in your own community.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
There's this abstract concept of history that there
were these people that did thesethings and that lived through
these things, or perhaps did notlive through these things, I
think, through just educationyou're so desensitized from.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
George Washington.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Abraham Lincoln.
You know, just, they're justnames, but then to see it, to
feel it, to touch it, to smellit, you know to, to be in it.
It brings it to life in a waythat no book, no audio book, no
video can replicate and itdrives it home to a point where
you can do something with it andI think that's why I get so
frustrated.
(00:34):
The second part is with JaniceKelsey, because she's a part of
that history for her to be likenobody's doing anything.
I now question the way thatpeople regard me and think about
me, because I know the historyof why they're doing that.
It makes you want to pushharder.
Knowing that you have,comparatively, infinitely more
(00:55):
resources than Janice and herbrother did, you know, but
knowing that you're facing thesame thing, the same thing, I'm
like it's just, it's just theirgrandkids, but it's the same
thing.
The same thing.
I'm like it's just, it's justtheir grandkids, but it's the
same thing.
You know and just like, okay,so what can I do with more?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I should be All right , welcome to another edition of
(01:32):
the Journey to Freedom podcast.
And today we're really talkingabout all things Alabama, and
the reason I say that is becausewe got the opportunity to have
several men and women go with usto Alabama back in January and
(01:57):
at the end of January, first ofFebruary we are now just about
at the end of May podcast alittle bit so that the folks
that went on the trip could beable to tell us a little bit
about what happened before, whattheir thought process was
before, what their thoughtprocess was after, and then what
they've been able to do as aresult of maybe just learning
some things that they didn'tknow and so I know.
For me, you know, I was able togo, this was my second trip
(02:21):
that I was able to go on hasjust been an amazing time,
because when we think about thejourney to freedom, when we
think about being able to moveforward and whether you know
folks were stuck or not, youknow, or whether folks were just
going, I haven't had thisexperience, or for some people
they have.
I know, like you know, we justgot done with jobs.
(02:43):
I was telling Caitlin that wejust got done with Josh Mays and
Jason Tucker and both of themhad not had a lot of experiences
in the South and what that waslike Like a few times that I'd
even been, you know, maybe toFlorida, to Disney World or you
(03:05):
know, maybe a track meet.
So we're in Arkansas, that kindof stuff I knew.
I went to Georgia back in the90s when the Olympics and stuff
were there, but other than thatnot spent a lot of my time in
the life, in my life in theSouth and kind of understanding,
read a lot of books and youknow, just tied.
Oh, you know Frederick Douglassdid this or Harriet Tubman did
this, but not realizing and thenjust feeling the atmosphere in
(03:29):
Alabama.
And so what I've asked him to dotoday he went with us on the
trip.
He's since come back and justbeen trying to follow all the
wonderful things that he's beendoing, but really wanted to get
some insights from him, and soI've asked him to tell his story
up until we went on the trip, alittle bit about his life, so
you can kind of know who he is,and then we're going to chop it
(03:51):
up and talk about the trip andsome of our experiences, what
we've done, and so thank you fortuning in today.
I hope this is something.
It was kind of nice.
We had Grand Design Inc whohelped sponsor us and did some
stuff to help us get there.
So so appreciate to them herein the Aurora area that allowed
us to go, but just wanted to Ithought I wanted to acknowledge
(04:13):
them but at the same time, youknow, be able to talk about what
we're doing in our community,here at least in the Denver
Metro area.
And so, hey, thank you forbeing on today.
I can't wait to spend more timewith you as we continue to move
forward and maybe take ourwives back at a certain time or
do something, but maybe you canjust kind of start with your
(04:36):
story and just go from there.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
I appreciate you.
Yeah, yeah, my name is KellenLanier.
I always struggle withintroducing what I do because,
as my family, I do I do too much.
So a brief history, a briefbackground, just to get some
context or what I'm, where I'mcoming from with the Alabama
trip.
I'm a business owner.
(04:58):
I'm also a business consultant.
You know, it wasn't always thatway.
I actually started out mycareer path kind of weird and
ended up being a business ownerjust because nothing else really
seemed to fit.
Ran a pharmacy consulting andthen eventually just outright
(05:20):
pharmacy management companythroughout the nation with my
brother up until 2020.
And we sold it off and nowwe're just doing different
things that are a lot lessstressful.
During that path, a lot ofthings happened Learned a lot
about the world, a lot about howpeople perceive you, which is
(05:40):
very important for the trip forme Also got married and learned
responsibility with children andso on.
I thought I knew responsibilitywith a company that large but
kids.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
The whole real world ended After.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Sarah, oh my gosh, yeah.
So that's just a very glossover history of who I am.
Yeah, and then gotten to thejourney to freedom.
Where did you grow up?
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Oh, I grew up here in .
Colorado.
So you were raised.
Where'd you go to high school?
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Yeah, I went to Grandview High School.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Grandview High School , toppies, aurora School,
graduated and had all thesethings your family makeup.
Maybe talk about that a littlebit to give some context,
background, and then we'll jumpinto Journey to Freedom you mean
my current family.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
I have two girls they're both toddlers and my
wife we've been married forseven years.
She says nine because you know,I guess, from the day we met,
we were married.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
I love it.
I love it.
Did she grow up in Colorado aswell?
No, no, she is from Albuquerque,so we're still in the southwest
of the United States, so youknow a little bit different than
you know what it is.
I don't know.
You know I talk about thissometimes when we think about
(07:20):
the population of the UnitedStates, you know, I mean think
about the population of theUnited States.
You know, 65% of all folks thatlive in the United States live
in the eastern time zone and sothere is a huge amount of
population that's there.
I mean, it makes sense becauseyou know that's where people
moved west and you know not asmany.
A lot of people stayed there.
(07:41):
Central time zone has about 15%.
The western time zone, whichCentral time zone, has about 15%
.
The western time zone, which isspecific, has about 15%, and
here in the mountain time zone,which would include Albuquerque
and Wyoming and Montana, there'sonly 5% of the population that
lives in our time zone, whichkind of gives, you know, I get
(08:04):
some context to like what ourexperiences are compared to the
rest of the United States,because there's just not as many
people.
You know Albuquerque is smallerthan Denver and if you think of
like Cheyenne, it's way waysmaller than Denver.
You think of like Bozeman, thenthere's not even people there,
right, you know, and so when wethink about, you know, the last
(08:29):
400 years of history, the last200 years of history, although
there were things that happenedhere in the United, you know in
the Colorado-Denver, you knowmountain time zone, you know, I
don't know if the impact was,the impact probably is still as
great, but the amount ofincidents, the amount of where
(08:50):
you can tie it back, to, wherefamily stuff may not be there.
So thank you for sharing that.
I just kind of want to givesome of that context as you're
doing stuff.
So journey of freedom.
So somebody gave you a call,probably me, and said I want you
to go on this trip, or BJ, orsomebody did.
So let's kind of talk aboutthis whole process here.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Yeah, so I guess a little bit more context.
So I have really in the recentyears, been getting into
politics and just wanting tounderstand what's happening at
the local level to politics.
And just wanting to understandwhat's happening at the local
level just because things didn'tseem right and they're not
right, but not, you know, justhiding your head in the sand
didn't do anything.
(09:34):
So my friend BJ was just like,hey, you know, this is something
you're into.
I'm not really into that, butyou might want to check out this
trip.
And I'm like, oh boy, what isthis?
Um, so he had been kind ofbugging me for a while and then
I'm like, okay, fine, I'll go,I'll go.
(09:55):
I'll go, um, because then mywife somehow I was talking to
her about it and she was likeyou should go.
I'm like, okay, well, now Idon't have any excuses.
That's usually my excuse.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Um, so that's that's how I got into it and I'm very
grateful, very grateful sobefore you went and you know you
had bj who's telling you to goyou have maybe a couple
conversations with me aboutmaybe what it's going to be like
, and not really a whole lotbecause you know, hey, we're
just going to go on this tripand somebody else you know said
to go.
What were your kind of prethought processes of what you
(10:33):
thought you were going to learn,what you thought you might be
getting into?
Speaker 1 (10:37):
kind of walk through that with me a little bit so my
only frame of reference is likea is like a men's church retreat
or something like that.
So that's kind of what I wasthinking.
I'm like, okay, you know, I'venever had a bad experience at
one.
So like, okay, whatever, itdidn't seem anything other than
(10:58):
that really.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
So that's, that's exactly what I was thinking but
this is the right, this is theright we that's exactly what I
was thinking, but civil rights,we might run into something.
This is going to be a retreatbe able to talk, come back and
probably be more educated aboutwhatever we're doing, but it
should be a good time.
So get to the airport and yousee the group that's there.
(11:22):
Does anything change as you'restarting to have conversations
and you know you know, notreally not at the airport.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
You know, I had to expect that there was going to
be other people.
I guess the biggest question Ihad was like OK, did they book a
whole bunch of differentflights?
That would seem kind of notlogical.
I was just like I wonder who'sgoing to be here.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
So we get there.
Our first encounter with theSouth and the shuttle, with the
airport, is a barbecue machinedown and we're all standing
around a machine or a vendingmachine that has barbecues and
we're just scratching our headsgoing what are we doing here?
I've never seen in my life,I've never seen a vending
(12:14):
machine that actually cooks themeat.
I wasn't sure how it worked,maybe just warmed it up after it
was already cooked.
We're thinking how long can itbe in here and how long can it
go, beginning the process ofrelationships and trying to fill
out the people that were there.
Any thoughts with me in theairport portion of it?
(12:41):
Well, I learned that BJ does notlike to fly, I didn't use it
for that.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
That was new for as long as I've known him.
I was like, oh okay, yeah,you're really, you know.
But yeah, you're right, it wasa lot of relationship building
in unconventional ways, you know.
So trying to keep his mind offof thinking that you know
everything was going to go downin flames and that landing was
really rough, mind off ofthinking that you know
everything was gonna go down inflames and, um that that landing
was really rough.
Uh, yeah, that lightning wasspecial.
(13:10):
But you know, the uh, thebarbecue machine, I think, was
like the beginning of all therelationship building, because
everybody was like who's who'sgonna go first, who's gonna get?
How does this thing work?
Maybe we shouldn't all getsomething here just in case.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Oh my gosh, it really kind of was.
It was kind of where we decidedthat we liked each other,
because it was something thatwas to me just this out of order
thing that's just stuck here.
But we all had who were able tohave common ground around.
We all had.
We all knew what barbecuetastes like.
(13:50):
We all started talking aboutour likes and dislikes around
barbecue.
So it kind of made this likecommon ground around who we were
to be able to talk aboutsomething that all of us had an
experience with.
You know whether it wasthinking about a McRib at
McDonald's that was going tocome out like that, or you know
Texas barbecue or Southernbarbecue or Missouri barbecue.
(14:12):
It was just.
I don't think we have thoseconversations if we don't look
at a barbecue vending machine.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
That's why I bring that up, you know, because you
know you would think, well, whywould you even talk about that?
Speaker 2 (14:25):
But it was.
It was the beginning of, Ithink, a relationship.
There's 27 of us on the tripand by that time I believe no,
my kids, the folks that camefrom California, hadn't got, we
hadn't met them yet.
It was just the folks that hadbeen.
No, no, cool.
So we get to the hotel, we kindof start our first meeting.
So we get to the hotel and wekind of start our first meeting,
we have Jeff Campbell, theEmancipation Theater guy, who is
(14:46):
a theater guy, who is going toteach us about story, kind of
walk us through or maybe youknow some of your thought
process as we begin to thinkabout story and why we're there.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Yeah, I think that was still.
That still threw me off becauseI'm like, oh yeah, it is like a
church retreat and we're doingall these icebreakers and
everything and it was cool.
Um, I really liked Jeff.
Um, you know, and I I think Isaid this then um, I'm like,
okay, this part that we'retalking about now is vastly
(15:21):
different from everything else,but now I understand why we did
that Gotcha.
Yeah, but it was an interestingexperience.
It was deepening thoseconversations with other people,
because we just kind of Ididn't know people were coming
from California and we just sawsome people in the hotel lobby
(15:42):
and they're like oh, you're theColorado people, california, and
we just saw some people in thehotel lobby and they're like oh,
you're the.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Colorado people, A couple from Atlanta, you know,
from the Atlanta came, and so,yeah, from my town.
So, yeah, it was a different.
You know, a little bit all overthe country and we didn't know
each other.
You know, that was the.
You know, I think that was thebiggest.
You know, hey, we're going tohave this time where, because we
are going to go through someexperiences together and we want
(16:07):
to have some of thatrelationship built where we can
withstand, you know, some of thethings that happen.
All right, so get through.
Then the next day we get thetour.
So we got Clay I can't rememberhis last name, but Clay Tours,
yeah, Ray Clay Tours, and thisis a white gentleman who is
(16:32):
going to teach us about civilrights in the South.
Walk us through that portion ofthis part.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
That was very interesting and I wonder what
the experience was like forpeople that weren't on that bus.
That was very interesting.
And I wonder what the experiencewas like for people that
weren't on that bus and were onthat bus, because just seeing
him yeah, his dad From how hedressed to how he talked, it was
just, it was unique.
It was an experience and I wasjust like who is this guy and
(17:05):
what kind of tour are we goingon?
It kind of gave me some what doyou call it magic school bus
vibes for a second there andthen went a completely different
direction.
Yeah, he was very interestingjust to see the effect of
(17:27):
learning history and when I lookat it it's kind of more
foreshadowing.
You know, that's looking at howhe responded to learning so
much and turning that into abusiness where he had to relive
that history day after day afterday.
(17:48):
And he had this sense of humor.
But it wasn't humor, I don't.
I don't know how to describethat um, where people would try
to vibe with him and tell a jokeand he's like this is not funny
, and then it would be somethingthat was situationally funny
that he would say but then hedidn't want to laugh.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
He's going to come back with how he interpreted
history.
You know from his viewpointfrom growing up there and from
you know his dad and you knowthe mixture.
Just, I've been on a couple oftours with him now you know, I
kind of handpicked some peopleto be on that bus that I think
would be receptive to you knowhis it's just darkness, like the
(18:34):
, the, the, you know the work,hoppable, or just you could feel
the atmosphere when clay wasspeaking and you know the places
that you know, whether we wereat the you know 16th street
church or we were, you know atshuttleworth's house that that
was bombed, you know, and tryingand trying to decide is this
something that he thinks is, youknow, humorous, or is this
(18:57):
something that we, we can't?
Yeah, I don't know how to have arelationship with him, because
to think that he's done athousand of those tours, over a
thousand of tours, and said thissame story over and over again,
how does he move out of that towhere we're at in life now?
Did you feel, as we were goingthrough that tour, that we had
(19:20):
gone back in time, you know 50or 60 years, or did you feel
like we were in 2025, justliving in a different part of
the country?
Speaker 1 (19:32):
I don't know.
I don't feel like we went backin time, and I think that's
because of Clay, because youcould constantly see the effect
of time, how he was dressed andhow he was acting.
Originally I thought he wasjust playing a periodic piece,
sort of, but to see that, yeah,this repetition has really,
(19:55):
really gotten to him, underscorethe gravity of the experience
that we were having and enrichedit in a way that I don't think
you could really, you can'treally replicate.
And it brought so much moredepth because you can see what
it does to a human being youknow and, and when he's telling
(20:18):
the story, you can see theeffect on him and you can
extrapolate the effect on thepeople that were there.
This is how a person who hasstudied it is viewing this.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Imagine what it's like to have lived that well,
and then when we were out of thebus and you know you can tell
you know the part that impactedyou the most during that part.
But it was amazing because thisis the first time the first
time I went, his dad wasn't onthe tour, so I was really
looking to see how his dad wastrying to tell some of the same
(20:50):
stories, because I don't thinkhis dad is as impacted.
But but to hear his dad say Igrew up 25 miles from where
we're standing, and to say thathe had very rarely interacted
with any black folks his wholelife until they started doing
this, and knowing that we're ina town that is 85% black, and
(21:13):
knowing that we're in a townthat is 85% black, and to say
how is it possible, 30 milesaway, that you were isolated so
much that your whole thoughtprocess about the world was kind
of from the perspective we sawstuff at, but you're 30 miles
away?
That was just so interesting tome, and then for him to be able
to do this with his son and seehow it's impacted his son,
(21:38):
because he seemed like he was alittle bit more I guess not as
affected maybe, as his son was,so maybe he hasn't told the
story as much.
What's your thought on that?
Speaker 1 (21:54):
I don't know.
The psychologist in me sayswell, he was closer to it than
Clay was.
Perhaps it's some sort ofdefense mechanism where he just
blocks that part out and hedissociates from it Clay.
There was zero dissociation.
He was just like this is whathappened.
What did he say?
(22:17):
He said this hound deserves todie.
It was something along thoselines of there's nothing good
here in Birmingham because ofthis history.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Was there any one part of Birmingham that you just
remembered and have gone overMaybe you've talked to other
people about that stood out morethan any of the other pieces or
just as a whole to see thistown.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
There were a few parts.
So Dynamite Hill, just becausehe kind of just snuck it up on
us and I did not know thatAngela Davis lived so close to
everybody else.
You know, it's just again sotight-knit in these huge, huge
figures in history and it's like, oh right there right there.
(23:09):
It was just like they could walkto each other's house and then
just have like a littlehistorical meeting.
It was weird to know thateverything was right there.
So there was that.
The story of Judge, that onereally got to me, the lynching,
and then the statue in the parkWas it West Park or East Park?
(23:29):
The book, the little book thatthe little girl had.
The world is more full ofsuffering than they can
understand, and that poem Ilooked it up afterwards pretty
much embodies how Clay his wholedemeanor.
(23:52):
And to see that these werewritten.
You know he developedindependently of this poem, uh,
this poem and like, but it's so.
That is the history and I thinkthat's the takeaway from all of
that.
History is that the sufferinggoes so deep you cannot fully
(24:14):
take it in without going insane,almost you know, or being
compelled to do something aboutit.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
So we get done with the tour and then we go see Miss
Janice Kelsey and Janice Kelseyand her brother are talking to
us and are saying we livethrough these children's marches
.
Our parents didn't go on themarch because they were afraid
they would lose jobs and theywouldn't be able to support us.
(24:44):
But we decided.
Janice said I'm in high school,I'm going to walk out of school
and I'm going to go to thismarch.
What impacted any of that storyor any?
What do you remember from fromher talking to us about that
time?
Speaker 1 (25:03):
You know I, I asked her some questions at the Q and
a and I think that's where Ijust, I think I brought it more
back to where we are now and Ijust can't, I can't, can't keep
from thinking, wow, how far havewe fallen.
You know that that when peoplewithout the resources to protect
(25:25):
themselves to, you know,provide a lot for themselves
that had all of these thingsstacked against us, had the
wherewithal and the bravery andthe courage to do that, and
today everybody is so focused onthemselves and and you know she
had, she had kind of reflectedthat too, of like I worry about
(25:48):
today's youth and being socomplacent, and I think that's
really an indictment of you know, this person has lived it.
You can't be like, oh, what doyou know?
You know she lived it and shemade those sacrifices, her and
her brother, you know they wentto jail for this.
(26:09):
They risked potentially theirlives.
Well, not potentially, theyrisked their lives for stuff
like this.
And to hear someone say, well,why can't you do that?
Today?
I am old, I am now a source ofknowledge for you and you're not
(26:30):
taking advantage of it, thatone hit me.
Yeah, that one really, reallyhit me and it makes me concerned
, because this stuff reallyhasn't gone away, it's just
transformed.
And they pass the baton to usand we're like hey, look at me
me, me, me.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Yeah, one of the thing that hit me and I, like I
said, I've had the opportunityto have conversations with her
twice now and when we went theyear before, all the political
uneasiness and unrest of ourcountry hadn't happened yet.
So, from her perspective, whenshe told her story to us a year
over a year ago, it was more ofthe historical.
(27:11):
This would happen, happen to me, and her brother wasn't there.
Um, what amazed me this timewas she was now putting it into
the context of all the stuffthat has happened to us
politically right now.
And there was some anger, therewas some you guys are not doing
(27:33):
stuff, and I'm seeing this gobackwards and I'm seeing it go
backwards in front of my eyes,like I literally could have died
, I could have stayed in jailand, like you just said, me, me,
me, we don't care.
And you know what are we doing,what are we standing up for.
You know, to hear her brothersay, I outran the fire hose.
(27:57):
I was fast enough where Iwasn't tumbling down the streets
.
I was like, oh yeah, they werewilling to sacrifice and I
thought with my own soul, am Iwilling to sacrifice at that
level?
Maybe I don't need to, andmaybe I'm sacrificing a
different way, and this is.
You know how I'm trying to dothat, but it really touched home
(28:20):
to me to see her anger show upin the way that it did.
Just you know from the timethat I'd seen her before, and so
I know BJ had known her.
I don't know if he ever saidanything I'm looking forward to
because he kind of grew up withknowing her.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
I've met her son before I met her.
Yeah, I mean, but it's, I think, another part of that that
frustrated me and I'll, if weget to the whole, what word did
you write down?
I'll share it because I thinkit's still you can just hear it
(29:07):
is that we only hear aboutMartin Luther King.
We only hear about the bignames, but they weren't in that
instance.
They weren't the ones that weonly hear about Martin Luther
King.
We only hear about the bignames, but they weren't in that
instance.
They weren't the ones to makethe sacrifice.
And you have to dig so deep forthat story.
And it's just the intersectionof, yeah, she met him in passing
(29:29):
at these events, but then thestory, the greatness of that
story that's attributed to him,was carried out by her and her
brother and her classmates.
And I find that wild thatthere's such buried information
there.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
So you talk about the word.
What was the word that?
Speaker 1 (29:53):
So the word that was, what was the word that?
So the word that I wrote downand I forgot what exercise that
was, but it was kind of likepoem sort of thing um was
anathema.
That was, that was my word, andit still is uh, whenever I
think about this but it's not ofthe moment, it's of every
(30:13):
effort that has gone intoburying this information, how
hard it is to access this, howhard it is for people to accept
this, and how much people fightagainst this history as if it
will harm them All of that Alittle bit got into schools.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
We need to make sure we take it out so that we can
act like we forget it or itnever happened.
Exactly, I like that.
Yeah, I do, I do.
All right, so get back.
We're just, you know, we'restill, you know, processing
thinking hey, we just had Clayall day, we just had Janice
Kelsey.
We decide the next day we meettogether, kind of go through
(31:02):
some more story stuff, and thenwe decide to drive to Selma.
And so are you having theexpectations of Selma other than
that we're going there, we'regoing to see a different part of
history, or are you trying tolook at Selma from different
lens now, because you now seeBirmingham?
What is your?
Speaker 1 (31:23):
I didn't really know what to expect.
So a lot of my family lives inAlabama, so family reunions, so
I'm used to the Alabama vibe,but the country, country,
country, part of it.
So see, in Birmingham I waslike, oh, they have a building
here.
I didn't know what to expect,you know.
(31:45):
So I was thinking Selma wouldbe a little bit closer to that,
but I still I didn't know whatto expect.
And actually on that ride Ireally got to connect with
Christine.
So I didn't really have time tolike have expectations, just
because we were just talkingabout life and mostly like kids,
because I'm just like how doyou handle two girls?
So she was like help me out alittle bit there, um, you know.
(32:09):
But yeah, I mean, when we gotthere, I was like, okay, this is
closer to what I expected.
I don't know how I felt aboutthe bridge still.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
I mean, it's a you know, we just, I think you just
turn back to the movie Selma andrealize all that happened on
this bridge that literally onlytakes 10 minutes to walk over.
I mean, it's not, you know,it's just a bridge like any
other bridge in the country,except for the historical
context, you know.
And you know, as I've watchedSelma several times now and
(32:48):
watching it after I've been onthe bridge.
So the first time I watched itbefore I got to the bridge.
And then I'm trying to rememberstuff Now I've walked on the
bridge, stood on the bridge, andI'm now watching the movie
again and then seeing and Idon't know how historically
correct the movie is like whatpart of the bridge they were
(33:08):
actually milling on, or you know, when they walk back out and
you know, at the other end ofthe bridge where the you know,
the Army and everybody elseNational Guard folks were at and
then trying to get past it, andthen that walk back to the AME
church where they started themarch from to get to the bridge.
It just the bridge, doesn't meana lot until you kind of you're
(33:32):
kind of putting yourself wherethe thing other than for me the
big thing about the bridge iswhy can't we change the name of
the bridge?
Why do we have to keep callingit the Pettus Bridge?
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Well, the historical title of Alabama has decided.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
you know, this man or this figure in history is more
important than what happenedthere and everything was named
Pettus there.
I mean, it was like it was downyou know Anything at the.
So we walked from the bridge tothe AME church and then we're
kind of sitting on the steps atthe AME church and just kind of
(34:05):
talking around there.
Was there anything?
Speaker 1 (34:08):
thoughts come to your mind, anything as we're at the
church or Not necessarily cometo your mind anything as we're
at the church or um, notnecessarily I mean it was late,
I think I was.
Just I was surprised at howquiet the town was, even though
I mean it was late, but itwasn't that late.
We didn't see any other people.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
The project housing was right across the street from
the church.
So there's a little bit ofactivity and you usually see at
least most of the projecthousing that I've been to on an
evening.
That's warm and everything andthere's usually a lot happening
and I was surprised as well thateverybody was inside.
I don't know if summer is anydifferent.
(34:49):
I don't know if they shut downthose streets at a certain time
for any reason.
That's true, it was very quiet.
The next day we're getting inthe vans and we're heading out
to the museum.
We have Dr Mack on the.
(35:11):
I don't know if you were ableto hear him.
I think in some of the bands hewasn't very what was your
thought about?
him giving us a preview ofwhat's expected in the museum
and how it's going to go throughthe museum or just history in
general.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
I didn't really get any what to expect in the museum
.
I was more interested in justhis research methodology for his
calendar.
I still have it up.
It's on my nightstand, yeah,you know.
So I looked there and I'm justlike, wow, this is again history
that you have to.
Someone had to dig and dig anddig for this, you know, and and
(35:52):
refine it over years and I'mjust like, wow, you know, this
seems like stuff that you shouldjust have readily available.
Why is it all?
Speaker 2 (36:02):
of that.
Why is it that his calendar,after he does all the digging,
is what now Google uses for allthese figures?
Because nobody else was willingto do that research.
And for him to find a personthat had a significance on every
single day, knowing that he hadto find a thousand people to
get 365 days that somethingsignificant about their life is
(36:26):
on that day in history, just youknow.
And for him, I mean he's got torelive it kind of like Clay did
you know, every day, as he'swriting about these people,
because you know we take greatstuff about him, but he's got to
learn all the other stuff thathappened to him in order for him
to put that calendar together.
Oh my gosh, yeah, okay.
(36:47):
So, then now we get to themuseum, and so are you already.
Have you researched or knownanything about the museum at
this point?
So you have no clue what toexpect whatsoever when we go to
the Equal Justice Museum.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
I had no idea.
You know, I saw we got thereand the politics head in me was
like ooh, look, how close is thecapital.
Is it state capital?
Because that's like one of mygoals If I'm in a state capital,
I want to see their capitalbuilding.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
So that's where I was .
Speaker 1 (37:23):
I'm like, okay, hey, it's right there.
And then Scott was like, hey,maybe we can go see it.
So that's where I was.
And then I was like, ooh, somefood.
Uh, so you can see howblindsided I was about to be
because I was buildings and food.
And then boom, um, you know,and I was just like why are
these people so uptight?
(37:44):
You know this, you know, likethe, the people working there,
I'm like, okay, I get it, it's amuseum.
But you know, it's like thatthreshold, like once, once you
get to that counter, it's justlike the whole vibe changes,
like over here it's fun and foodand it's sunny, and then it's
just dark and they were justreal solemn and I was like that
(38:06):
was my first warning.
I was like uh-oh, what's aboutto happen?
And then you walk around thatwall and then that big ocean
wall.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
I was like no, I already know what this is about
well, you can just talk about afew of the things that that
impacted you in the museum.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Yeah, you said maybe two of them.
Yeah, yeah, I don't know.
I don't know Everything.
Everything, I think about thatmuseum at least once or twice a
week, every week, since then.
You know the ocean, that one, Ithink, and it didn't really
(38:52):
have much, it was just oceanwaves, and you know people make
serenity soundtracks about oceanwaves and stuff.
There was nothing serene aboutthis because you knew, you knew
exactly what that meant and Ithink after going around that
(39:13):
wall and then the, the sculptureexhibit, was, I'm like okay,
yeah, um, seeing the, seeing thenumbers, and I I watched the
whole the trade and I'm justlike, wow, I knew the number.
(39:34):
But to see the number and tosee the path and to know that
one of those lines carried me init somehow, some way, was just
like.
I watched it a few times and Iwas just like why can't I record
this?
So I just kept looking at itand looking at it.
What else?
(39:56):
The?
Speaker 2 (39:58):
You go to where they're waiting to be shipped
and you're in those bars andthey have, like the ghost or
whatever that they're giving toyou.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Yeah, that one we didn't take as much time with.
We didn't listen to everysingle one because I forgot
there was something before thatthat we were just fixated on.
I think it was still just asculpture on the hole on the
(40:35):
wall where it said slavery iswhat did it say?
Slavery is the closest thing tohell on earth.
It was something like that andthat that just threw me.
And then I was just looking atall the little articles and just
like the really little stuffand by that time my mind was so
fixated on that.
I was just looking at all thelittle articles and just like
(40:55):
the really little stuff and bythat time my mind was so fixated
on that I was like, oh hey,this is.
I kind of withdrew for a second.
I was like, oh cool, this is aweird construction.
How did they do?
That's where my mind was withthose Like how did they get that
?
They have two panes of glassand then they shoot a projection
.
And then is like pay attention.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Oh okay, it's like a defense mechanism, right,
because you've been hit.
Wait a minute.
I got to step back for a second, so let me find something else
that my mind can just thinkbefore I jump in, because if the
rest of this, we've only beenhere for 10 minutes in this
first section, if the rest ofthis is like this, there's
(41:33):
something I got to.
I have to think about somethingelse for a second before I can
jump back into it Is that yeah,yeah, it's, it probably was.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
You know, being honest, and I think at that
point you know now, knowing whatwas going to come next, you
knowing it's like I don't know.
I I guess I grew up old schooland hopefully I don't offend
anybody but you know when you'reabout to get a woman, you know
the pain and you know that itwas coming, because you know.
(42:04):
But the anticipation it waslike that, you know, but
emotional, like I know what'snext.
I know after the slave trade, Iknow you know all the way up
they're probably going to endwith prison.
But see, walking through it,I'm like I'm gonna have to walk
through this, I can't gobackwards.
And yeah, so that you know,sitting in the theater and
(42:29):
looking at the sculpture, thesculpture one, um.
And then there was the other,the lynching one, um.
The little theaters that theyhave.
We did skip one just causewe're like um time and we wanted
to go get some other stuff.
But again, I think the partthat stood out to me the most,
which I, uh, I told my wife andshe was like that was really
(42:52):
mean, kellen, I'm like, hey, itwas honest, um was when I saw
the white woman leaving thetheater crying and the it just
came out and I was like good andit was like I was like good, I
hope she cries the entire timeand I hope she tells everybody
about this.
You know, and I still by that,I'm just like this.
(43:13):
Yeah, this is trauma that wedeal with in so many insidious
ways today.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
They have the segregation section that has all
the signs.
These signs are real.
These signs were hangingsomewhere.
This isn't like it's made up amuseum and put the stuff in
there.
This is for real.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
Yeah, and then the jars.
I think that was one foreverybody we almost missed it.
We almost missed the jars.
It was like in a pocket andthen we walked past it.
I'm like, wait, what were those?
Bj was like, oh, I don't know.
I'm like no, no, no, let's goback.
(43:59):
And then we were looking at it.
We were just like huh, we werejust trying to see how many were
in Colorado and just the factthat there were Colorado jars up
there, I know.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
And, like you said, we think because of the
population being so small thatstuff didn't happen.
But a lot of history that'shere that we don't even think
about because we just thinkabout the South, and to see
those jars and to see Josh gothrough and find his actual
family was just oh my God.
(44:32):
They allowed him to take apicture next to the jar of his
family which is like oh, my gosh.
It was there the voting sectionright Did you?
you know when you think about,because you're now in politics
and you're thinking about aright to vote and what you know.
I really got to guess thesejelly beans.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
That one really got me, because Colorado we're going
through some of that actively.
They're doing those same thingsnow and I testified in front of
our House and Senate about thisstuff and I'm like you guys are
literally doing the same thingand you don't learn.
You don't learn, you just keepdoing destructive stuff.
And you know, just seeing thatand that's exactly what was in
(45:19):
my mind is these jars and how,how asinine it seems.
Now you know, but they justchanged a few things, but it's
the same thing.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Well, and I think that the folks that are even at
the polling place, that are thepoll workers, they couldn't have
figured any of that out, theycouldn't have answered any of
those questions.
They yeah, how many polls werethere?
So, oh, it was just, it wasjust so blatant how they just
would figure out any possible,like you said, which is
(45:48):
happening now.
How do we stop people fromparticipating in our democratic
process?
It's just, oh my gosh.
Then you said we get to theprison side right Now we're in
the sea.
The mass incarceration.
Did you listen to some of thestories from I listened to two.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
At that point, I think my mind was just so blown.
I'm just like I know what thisis about, because this is
something that's more, moretangible, you know, and I'm just
like I can't sit here andlisten to every single one of
these.
I think, by that point, I wasjust like I was so mad at that
lady laughing, laughing.
But yeah, I was like it at thatlady.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
But yeah, I was like it's time to go.
The reflection room was thatkind of cool to see all the
figures in history that are allthe way up to the top of the
wall.
It's just a lot of figures, Imean.
We've seen those.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
Yeah, by that point I think I was just like oh, now
they're trying to make you feelbetter.
But I was just like but look athow it ended before they're
like hey you know, here's someart, exactly.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
Here's some people who got through it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
Did you guys go?
Speaker 2 (47:09):
over to the lynching pillar.
Things that are hanging.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
We did not do the ceiling one, we did the
sculpture park.
I didn't know where that onewas.
I think it was inside.
We were looking and I think wewere both done.
We were like we'll come backanother year or something.
We did the sculpture park, thatone.
(47:35):
That was a hard one too, youknow, because I can't.
That one brought me back.
So we're talking about goingback in history and seeing, like
the holding cells and I'm like,as big as I am, I'm like I
couldn't.
I couldn't imagine.
I couldn't imagine being inthis little shack.
(47:56):
I couldn't imagine doing all ofthese things.
And yeah, I, yeah.
And then the book and seeingevery single one of my family
names up there, I was just likewow, and they were all like high
level.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
Yeah, so overall the trip, you said you were glad
that you went on the trip and Iknow what two or three insights
from the trip that you came backwith that you said, um, either
I have to do something, or thisis how it impacted me, or when
(48:36):
you're telling this story toyour wife and you're letting her
know the parts of it.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
It's really just history made tangible.
There's this abstract historymade tangible.
I think that's the you knowthere's, there's this abstract
concept of history.
You know that there were thesepeople that did these things and
that lived through these thingsor perhaps did not live through
these things, and I think,through just education, you're
(49:10):
so desensitized from GeorgeWashington, abraham Lincoln, you
know just, they're just names,they're just things, but then to
see it, to feel it, to touch it, to smell it, you know to be in
it is it brings it to life in away that you just can't no book
(49:32):
, no audio book, no video canreplicate, and it drives it home
to a point where you can dosomething with it.
And I think that's why I get sofrustrated.
The second part is with JaniceKelsey, because she has always
been that, because she's a partof that history, and for people
(49:53):
to be, for her, to be likenobody's doing anything, and
then to see all this and torealize nobody did anything.
Why is this book the size of anoffice building, with all of
these names on here that are insize maybe 72 font.
Nobody did anything.
(50:14):
And I'm just like that's whatis go, kept going, like, okay,
somebody should do something.
You should do something aboutthis.
You should do something.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
No, just sit there well, and I know that you are
and you know I.
It was fun.
We did the NAACP day at theCapitol and I got to see you and
you know the things that you're.
You know just knowing thatyou're down there, that you're
doing stuff.
So when you come back andyou're and you're saying I want
(50:52):
to make a difference and not doanything, what has it been like
since you've come?
Speaker 1 (50:56):
back and the things that you've been trying to be
part of Hard.
You know it's a different typeof hard.
You know there is.
This is definitely one of thosemoments of before this and
after this.
You know where I now questionthe way that people regard me
and think about me, because Iknow the history of why they're
(51:17):
doing that.
You know, and it becomes soobvious.
You know some things and itmakes you want to push harder.
Knowing that you havecomparatively infinitely more
resources than janice and herbrother did, um, you know, but
(51:38):
knowing that you're facing thesame thing, yeah the same thing.
I'm like it's just, it's justtheir grandkids, but it's the
same thing, you know, and justlike, okay, so what can I do
with more?
I should be doing more um, andthat's.
I think that's yeah, so it's.
It's been hard, but I thinkI've pushed further and harder.
(52:04):
I've definitely pissed off alot of people, um, but again I
feel like the lady leaving thetheater good Good, you should be
mad.
Um, you know, and I.
I think in that way it has alsogalvanized and allowed me to
push harder, because I knowwhat's at stake.
Speaker 2 (52:21):
That's huge.
That is huge.
Yeah, cause you, when we thinkabout you, know, when you're
Janice Kelsey's age and nowyou're telling the story of what
you did and how it impacted, doI want to be sitting mad
because things haven't changed?
You don't right?
(52:42):
You want to say what can I doin my community?
What can I do?
And you can't do everything, buteven that one little thing,
like you're saying you go totestify, you and you're, and
you're saying, because you'renow embedded and you may have
been a little bit before, butjust maybe in a different way,
um, you know one of the things,yeah, like I went to the day and
I had it just assured.
You just said naacp out, itdidn't say anything else, it
(53:04):
just said naac, state conferenceon it.
And I get to go into that, gointo the house, and there's
somebody in the house that wantsme to turn my shirt around and
inside out, because I guessapparently they think the NAACP
is a political statement and youcan't have any political.
And then to hear the story oflast week there were people that
(53:29):
were wearing shirts about guncontrol, which is a political
issue, and that they were okay,no-transcript, and to just go.
Speaker 1 (53:58):
we can't Wow.
Yeah yeah, they made you guysturn your shirts inside out.
Speaker 2 (54:05):
I was going to be in that room Now.
The other group was withSenator Coleman and he went to
the Senate and they had the sameshirt on and they even got to
go up where the dais was andthen they got to take pictures
up there with their shirts on inthe Senate.
It was the House that somebodyin the House had an issue with
(54:28):
and they went to security andthe security you know, and I'm
like, and they went to securityand the security you know, and
I'm like, so you know, obviouslythey didn't tell me who it was,
just because then that would be.
Speaker 1 (54:39):
you know, I don't know who it is they can figure
it out.
Speaker 2 (54:44):
Yeah, just to be there and go.
Okay, where have we come to?
Is there anything else thatyou're doing in the community or
ways that you're.
Speaker 1 (54:58):
You know I've been.
I've been working kind of ontwo things concurrently I think
a lot of politicians.
The reason I make them so madis because I can't figure out
where to place me.
So one that I think still lotof politicians.
The reason I make them so madis because I can't figure out
where to place me.
(55:19):
So one that I think still needssome more work is the Black
History Bill from this year.
That one had a lot of oppositionfrom both sides, unfortunately,
and that's one that I wasreally hoping would get far this
year, and that was just to havesome standardized history for
students that teachers canchoose to draw from.
(55:40):
It wasn't forcing them and itwas just again listening to that
of Martin Luther King is enough.
That was a real publicstatement by a representative in
Colorado from 2025.
That's crazy to me.
I don't know why that wasn'tunanimous.
(56:01):
It passed out of both, orpassed out of the House, for
sure the Senate.
I have to double check and seewhere it cause it.
Kind of everybody kept slowplaying it, um, you know.
And then the other one was thegun control stuff.
Just because I'm I really afterwalking through that park and
(56:24):
looking at all of the war stuff,and there was a one plaque that
said if they had guns theywould not be in this situation,
and that's one thing that thestate's trying to take away.
And I'm like whoa, whoa, whoa,whoa, whoa.
Have we not learned our historyhere?
You know so it's, it's it'sbeen.
You know, being on both sidesof that has been really
(56:44):
interesting, you know.
So I've been trying to reallyshow people where, you know, gun
rights are civil rights.
You know, do you really thinkthat people would have been
rolling up and down DynamiteHill if they were armed like
that?
You know there were a few.
There were a few, but not thenumbers that we have today, you
(57:08):
know.
So you know things like that.
And bringing it outside of thisweird culture war that's going
on now, it's like thinking thatit's all rednecks and everything
like that.
You know, I'm I'm trying tointroduce people to ida b wells.
Um, there's a reason that shesaid the stuff that she said,
and I feel like we should reallytake in that part of our
(57:31):
history too.
Even I think janice kelsey wassaying some of the same thing.
She was a little bit morehesitant but she was like kind
of has its place, so justbringing more awareness to it in
a larger context and groundingthat in history and not just
(57:54):
obsession, but history there's ahistorical purpose.
Speaker 2 (57:58):
Well, thank you so much for being willing to share
today and talk about your tripand your.
You know through your eyes whichis so important and I'm
assuming you would go back againat some point to go see it and
I want to make that happen.
And so if you're watching andyou're a person who's seeing
this and saying I would love togo through this trip, please
(58:21):
contact me.
Or if you know Kellen and youcontact him and we want to take
a trip, we're looking at payinganother trip in September and
then again in January, maybe onethat has spouses on it, one
that has spouses on it, one thathas, you know, to kind of
process that and so just tryingto figure out what that looks
like.
But the main thing is that wecome back and we make a
difference and that we try tomake an impact and we don't just
(58:42):
say, oh, it was a nice trip.
It's really a trip that I thinkhas enlightened all of us in a
way that says or just called usto action in so many things, and
so our journey together is notnowhere near completely there
being done, because we are goingto continue to spend time
together.
And do you have any closingthoughts as we, as we in the
(59:04):
show today that you would lovefor everybody who's listening to
hear.
Speaker 1 (59:09):
Yeah, I mean, if you have a chance to go, go, don't
have expectations, just go.
I'm definitely going to try andget all of my friends that I
can, especially those inbusiness.
I think that business peopleneed to hear this too.
Politicians, yeah, but they'renot going to listen.
But business people.
I really hope that morebusiness people go they make an
(59:35):
impact on the ground.
Speaker 2 (59:37):
They're not screwing around and that kind of stuff,
and they actually influence ourpoliticians to create the bills
and the laws based on what'sgoing to help our economy and
our ability to culture itself.
Well, thank you.
If you haven't subscribed yet,go ahead and subscribe and
notifications, as we have justso much incredible content from
(59:58):
people that are just like himthat we get to talk and tell
their stories.
So I thank you for being partof the Alabama edition and I
look forward to having you guyslook at more shows and then
being on trips with you.
So don't forget to teach yourGod's greatest gift he loves you
(01:00:23):
, if you allow him to, and thenwe'll talk to you on the next
one.
There's this abstract concept of history that there
were these people that did thesethings and that lived through
these things, or perhaps did notlive through these things, I
think, through just educationyou're so desensitized from.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
George Washington.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Abraham Lincoln.
You know, just, they're justnames, but then to see it, to
feel it, to touch it, to smellit, you know to, to be in it.
It brings it to life in a waythat no book, no audio book, no
video can replicate and itdrives it home to a point where
you can do something with it andI think that's why I get so
frustrated.
(00:34):
The second part is with JaniceKelsey, because she's a part of
that history for her to be likenobody's doing anything.
I now question the way thatpeople regard me and think about
me, because I know the historyof why they're doing that.
It makes you want to pushharder.
Knowing that you have,comparatively, infinitely more
(00:55):
resources than Janice and herbrother did, you know, but
knowing that you're facing thesame thing, the same thing, I'm
like it's just, it's just theirgrandkids, but it's the same
thing.
The same thing.
I'm like it's just, it's justtheir grandkids, but it's the
same thing.
You know and just like, okay,so what can I do with more?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I should be All right , welcome to another edition of
(01:32):
the Journey to Freedom podcast.
And today we're really talkingabout all things Alabama, and
the reason I say that is becausewe got the opportunity to have
several men and women go with usto Alabama back in January and
(01:57):
at the end of January, first ofFebruary we are now just about
at the end of May podcast alittle bit so that the folks
that went on the trip could beable to tell us a little bit
about what happened before, whattheir thought process was
before, what their thoughtprocess was after, and then what
they've been able to do as aresult of maybe just learning
some things that they didn'tknow and so I know.
For me, you know, I was able togo, this was my second trip
(02:21):
that I was able to go on hasjust been an amazing time,
because when we think about thejourney to freedom, when we
think about being able to moveforward and whether you know
folks were stuck or not, youknow, or whether folks were just
going, I haven't had thisexperience, or for some people
they have.
I know, like you know, we justgot done with jobs.
(02:43):
I was telling Caitlin that wejust got done with Josh Mays and
Jason Tucker and both of themhad not had a lot of experiences
in the South and what that waslike Like a few times that I'd
even been, you know, maybe toFlorida, to Disney World or you
(03:05):
know, maybe a track meet.
So we're in Arkansas, that kindof stuff I knew.
I went to Georgia back in the90s when the Olympics and stuff
were there, but other than thatnot spent a lot of my time in
the life, in my life in theSouth and kind of understanding,
read a lot of books and youknow, just tied.
Oh, you know Frederick Douglassdid this or Harriet Tubman did
this, but not realizing and thenjust feeling the atmosphere in
(03:29):
Alabama.
And so what I've asked him to dotoday he went with us on the
trip.
He's since come back and justbeen trying to follow all the
wonderful things that he's beendoing, but really wanted to get
some insights from him, and soI've asked him to tell his story
up until we went on the trip, alittle bit about his life, so
you can kind of know who he is,and then we're going to chop it
(03:51):
up and talk about the trip andsome of our experiences, what
we've done, and so thank you fortuning in today.
I hope this is something.
It was kind of nice.
We had Grand Design Inc whohelped sponsor us and did some
stuff to help us get there.
So so appreciate to them herein the Aurora area that allowed
us to go, but just wanted to Ithought I wanted to acknowledge
(04:13):
them but at the same time, youknow, be able to talk about what
we're doing in our community,here at least in the Denver
Metro area.
And so, hey, thank you forbeing on today.
I can't wait to spend more timewith you as we continue to move
forward and maybe take ourwives back at a certain time or
do something, but maybe you canjust kind of start with your
(04:36):
story and just go from there.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
I appreciate you.
Yeah, yeah, my name is KellenLanier.
I always struggle withintroducing what I do because,
as my family, I do I do too much.
So a brief history, a briefbackground, just to get some
context or what I'm, where I'mcoming from with the Alabama
trip.
I'm a business owner.
(04:58):
I'm also a business consultant.
You know, it wasn't always thatway.
I actually started out mycareer path kind of weird and
ended up being a business ownerjust because nothing else really
seemed to fit.
Ran a pharmacy consulting andthen eventually just outright
(05:20):
pharmacy management companythroughout the nation with my
brother up until 2020.
And we sold it off and nowwe're just doing different
things that are a lot lessstressful.
During that path, a lot ofthings happened Learned a lot
about the world, a lot about howpeople perceive you, which is
(05:40):
very important for the trip forme Also got married and learned
responsibility with children andso on.
I thought I knew responsibilitywith a company that large but
kids.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
The whole real world ended After.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Sarah, oh my gosh, yeah.
So that's just a very glossover history of who I am.
Yeah, and then gotten to thejourney to freedom.
Where did you grow up?
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Oh, I grew up here in .
Colorado.
So you were raised.
Where'd you go to high school?
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Yeah, I went to Grandview High School.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Grandview High School , toppies, aurora School,
graduated and had all thesethings your family makeup.
Maybe talk about that a littlebit to give some context,
background, and then we'll jumpinto Journey to Freedom you mean
my current family.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
I have two girls they're both toddlers and my
wife we've been married forseven years.
She says nine because you know,I guess, from the day we met,
we were married.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
I love it.
I love it.
Did she grow up in Colorado aswell?
No, no, she is from Albuquerque,so we're still in the southwest
of the United States, so youknow a little bit different than
you know what it is.
I don't know.
You know I talk about thissometimes when we think about
(07:20):
the population of the UnitedStates, you know, I mean think
about the population of theUnited States.
You know, 65% of all folks thatlive in the United States live
in the eastern time zone and sothere is a huge amount of
population that's there.
I mean, it makes sense becauseyou know that's where people
moved west and you know not asmany.
A lot of people stayed there.
(07:41):
Central time zone has about 15%.
The western time zone, whichCentral time zone, has about 15%
.
The western time zone, which isspecific, has about 15%, and
here in the mountain time zone,which would include Albuquerque
and Wyoming and Montana, there'sonly 5% of the population that
lives in our time zone, whichkind of gives, you know, I get
(08:04):
some context to like what ourexperiences are compared to the
rest of the United States,because there's just not as many
people.
You know Albuquerque is smallerthan Denver and if you think of
like Cheyenne, it's way waysmaller than Denver.
You think of like Bozeman, thenthere's not even people there,
right, you know, and so when wethink about, you know, the last
(08:29):
400 years of history, the last200 years of history, although
there were things that happenedhere in the United, you know in
the Colorado-Denver, you knowmountain time zone, you know, I
don't know if the impact was,the impact probably is still as
great, but the amount ofincidents, the amount of where
(08:50):
you can tie it back, to, wherefamily stuff may not be there.
So thank you for sharing that.
I just kind of want to givesome of that context as you're
doing stuff.
So journey of freedom.
So somebody gave you a call,probably me, and said I want you
to go on this trip, or BJ, orsomebody did.
So let's kind of talk aboutthis whole process here.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Yeah, so I guess a little bit more context.
So I have really in the recentyears, been getting into
politics and just wanting tounderstand what's happening at
the local level to politics.
And just wanting to understandwhat's happening at the local
level just because things didn'tseem right and they're not
right, but not, you know, justhiding your head in the sand
didn't do anything.
(09:34):
So my friend BJ was just like,hey, you know, this is something
you're into.
I'm not really into that, butyou might want to check out this
trip.
And I'm like, oh boy, what isthis?
Um, so he had been kind ofbugging me for a while and then
I'm like, okay, fine, I'll go,I'll go.
(09:55):
I'll go, um, because then mywife somehow I was talking to
her about it and she was likeyou should go.
I'm like, okay, well, now Idon't have any excuses.
That's usually my excuse.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Um, so that's that's how I got into it and I'm very
grateful, very grateful sobefore you went and you know you
had bj who's telling you to goyou have maybe a couple
conversations with me aboutmaybe what it's going to be like
, and not really a whole lotbecause you know, hey, we're
just going to go on this tripand somebody else you know said
to go.
What were your kind of prethought processes of what you
(10:33):
thought you were going to learn,what you thought you might be
getting into?
Speaker 1 (10:37):
kind of walk through that with me a little bit so my
only frame of reference is likea is like a men's church retreat
or something like that.
So that's kind of what I wasthinking.
I'm like, okay, you know, I'venever had a bad experience at
one.
So like, okay, whatever, itdidn't seem anything other than
(10:58):
that really.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
So that's, that's exactly what I was thinking but
this is the right, this is theright we that's exactly what I
was thinking, but civil rights,we might run into something.
This is going to be a retreatbe able to talk, come back and
probably be more educated aboutwhatever we're doing, but it
should be a good time.
So get to the airport and yousee the group that's there.
(11:22):
Does anything change as you'restarting to have conversations
and you know you know, notreally not at the airport.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
You know, I had to expect that there was going to
be other people.
I guess the biggest question Ihad was like OK, did they book a
whole bunch of differentflights?
That would seem kind of notlogical.
I was just like I wonder who'sgoing to be here.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
So we get there.
Our first encounter with theSouth and the shuttle, with the
airport, is a barbecue machinedown and we're all standing
around a machine or a vendingmachine that has barbecues and
we're just scratching our headsgoing what are we doing here?
I've never seen in my life,I've never seen a vending
(12:14):
machine that actually cooks themeat.
I wasn't sure how it worked,maybe just warmed it up after it
was already cooked.
We're thinking how long can itbe in here and how long can it
go, beginning the process ofrelationships and trying to fill
out the people that were there.
Any thoughts with me in theairport portion of it?
(12:41):
Well, I learned that BJ does notlike to fly, I didn't use it
for that.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
That was new for as long as I've known him.
I was like, oh okay, yeah,you're really, you know.
But yeah, you're right, it wasa lot of relationship building
in unconventional ways, you know.
So trying to keep his mind offof thinking that you know
everything was going to go downin flames and that landing was
really rough, mind off ofthinking that you know
everything was gonna go down inflames and, um that that landing
was really rough.
Uh, yeah, that lightning wasspecial.
(13:10):
But you know, the uh, thebarbecue machine, I think, was
like the beginning of all therelationship building, because
everybody was like who's who'sgonna go first, who's gonna get?
How does this thing work?
Maybe we shouldn't all getsomething here just in case.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Oh my gosh, it really kind of was.
It was kind of where we decidedthat we liked each other,
because it was something thatwas to me just this out of order
thing that's just stuck here.
But we all had who were able tohave common ground around.
We all had.
We all knew what barbecuetastes like.
(13:50):
We all started talking aboutour likes and dislikes around
barbecue.
So it kind of made this likecommon ground around who we were
to be able to talk aboutsomething that all of us had an
experience with.
You know whether it wasthinking about a McRib at
McDonald's that was going tocome out like that, or you know
Texas barbecue or Southernbarbecue or Missouri barbecue.
(14:12):
It was just.
I don't think we have thoseconversations if we don't look
at a barbecue vending machine.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
That's why I bring that up, you know, because you
know you would think, well, whywould you even talk about that?
Speaker 2 (14:25):
But it was.
It was the beginning of, Ithink, a relationship.
There's 27 of us on the tripand by that time I believe no,
my kids, the folks that camefrom California, hadn't got, we
hadn't met them yet.
It was just the folks that hadbeen.
No, no, cool.
So we get to the hotel, we kindof start our first meeting.
So we get to the hotel and wekind of start our first meeting,
we have Jeff Campbell, theEmancipation Theater guy, who is
(14:46):
a theater guy, who is going toteach us about story, kind of
walk us through or maybe youknow some of your thought
process as we begin to thinkabout story and why we're there.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Yeah, I think that was still.
That still threw me off becauseI'm like, oh yeah, it is like a
church retreat and we're doingall these icebreakers and
everything and it was cool.
Um, I really liked Jeff.
Um, you know, and I I think Isaid this then um, I'm like,
okay, this part that we'retalking about now is vastly
(15:21):
different from everything else,but now I understand why we did
that Gotcha.
Yeah, but it was an interestingexperience.
It was deepening thoseconversations with other people,
because we just kind of Ididn't know people were coming
from California and we just sawsome people in the hotel lobby
(15:42):
and they're like oh, you're theColorado people, california, and
we just saw some people in thehotel lobby and they're like oh,
you're the.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Colorado people, A couple from Atlanta, you know,
from the Atlanta came, and so,yeah, from my town.
So, yeah, it was a different.
You know, a little bit all overthe country and we didn't know
each other.
You know, that was the.
You know, I think that was thebiggest.
You know, hey, we're going tohave this time where, because we
are going to go through someexperiences together and we want
(16:07):
to have some of thatrelationship built where we can
withstand, you know, some of thethings that happen.
All right, so get through.
Then the next day we get thetour.
So we got Clay I can't rememberhis last name, but Clay Tours,
yeah, Ray Clay Tours, and thisis a white gentleman who is
(16:32):
going to teach us about civilrights in the South.
Walk us through that portion ofthis part.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
That was very interesting and I wonder what
the experience was like forpeople that weren't on that bus.
That was very interesting.
And I wonder what the experiencewas like for people that
weren't on that bus and were onthat bus, because just seeing
him yeah, his dad From how hedressed to how he talked, it was
just, it was unique.
It was an experience and I wasjust like who is this guy and
(17:05):
what kind of tour are we goingon?
It kind of gave me some what doyou call it magic school bus
vibes for a second there andthen went a completely different
direction.
Yeah, he was very interestingjust to see the effect of
(17:27):
learning history and when I lookat it it's kind of more
foreshadowing.
You know, that's looking at howhe responded to learning so
much and turning that into abusiness where he had to relive
that history day after day afterday.
(17:48):
And he had this sense of humor.
But it wasn't humor, I don't.
I don't know how to describethat um, where people would try
to vibe with him and tell a jokeand he's like this is not funny
, and then it would be somethingthat was situationally funny
that he would say but then hedidn't want to laugh.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
He's going to come back with how he interpreted
history.
You know from his viewpointfrom growing up there and from
you know his dad and you knowthe mixture.
Just, I've been on a couple oftours with him now you know, I
kind of handpicked some peopleto be on that bus that I think
would be receptive to you knowhis it's just darkness, like the
(18:34):
, the, the, you know the work,hoppable, or just you could feel
the atmosphere when clay wasspeaking and you know the places
that you know, whether we wereat the you know 16th street
church or we were, you know atshuttleworth's house that that
was bombed, you know, and tryingand trying to decide is this
something that he thinks is, youknow, humorous, or is this
(18:57):
something that we, we can't?
Yeah, I don't know how to have arelationship with him, because
to think that he's done athousand of those tours, over a
thousand of tours, and said thissame story over and over again,
how does he move out of that towhere we're at in life now?
Did you feel, as we were goingthrough that tour, that we had
(19:20):
gone back in time, you know 50or 60 years, or did you feel
like we were in 2025, justliving in a different part of
the country?
Speaker 1 (19:32):
I don't know.
I don't feel like we went backin time, and I think that's
because of Clay, because youcould constantly see the effect
of time, how he was dressed andhow he was acting.
Originally I thought he wasjust playing a periodic piece,
sort of, but to see that, yeah,this repetition has really,
(19:55):
really gotten to him, underscorethe gravity of the experience
that we were having and enrichedit in a way that I don't think
you could really, you can'treally replicate.
And it brought so much moredepth because you can see what
it does to a human being youknow and, and when he's telling
(20:18):
the story, you can see theeffect on him and you can
extrapolate the effect on thepeople that were there.
This is how a person who hasstudied it is viewing this.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Imagine what it's like to have lived that well,
and then when we were out of thebus and you know you can tell
you know the part that impactedyou the most during that part.
But it was amazing because thisis the first time the first
time I went, his dad wasn't onthe tour, so I was really
looking to see how his dad wastrying to tell some of the same
(20:50):
stories, because I don't thinkhis dad is as impacted.
But but to hear his dad say Igrew up 25 miles from where
we're standing, and to say thathe had very rarely interacted
with any black folks his wholelife until they started doing
this, and knowing that we're ina town that is 85% black, and
(21:13):
knowing that we're in a townthat is 85% black, and to say
how is it possible, 30 milesaway, that you were isolated so
much that your whole thoughtprocess about the world was kind
of from the perspective we sawstuff at, but you're 30 miles
away?
That was just so interesting tome, and then for him to be able
to do this with his son and seehow it's impacted his son,
(21:38):
because he seemed like he was alittle bit more I guess not as
affected maybe, as his son was,so maybe he hasn't told the
story as much.
What's your thought on that?
Speaker 1 (21:54):
I don't know.
The psychologist in me sayswell, he was closer to it than
Clay was.
Perhaps it's some sort ofdefense mechanism where he just
blocks that part out and hedissociates from it Clay.
There was zero dissociation.
He was just like this is whathappened.
What did he say?
(22:17):
He said this hound deserves todie.
It was something along thoselines of there's nothing good
here in Birmingham because ofthis history.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Was there any one part of Birmingham that you just
remembered and have gone overMaybe you've talked to other
people about that stood out morethan any of the other pieces or
just as a whole to see thistown.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
There were a few parts.
So Dynamite Hill, just becausehe kind of just snuck it up on
us and I did not know thatAngela Davis lived so close to
everybody else.
You know, it's just again sotight-knit in these huge, huge
figures in history and it's like, oh right there right there.
(23:09):
It was just like they could walkto each other's house and then
just have like a littlehistorical meeting.
It was weird to know thateverything was right there.
So there was that.
The story of Judge, that onereally got to me, the lynching,
and then the statue in the parkWas it West Park or East Park?
(23:29):
The book, the little book thatthe little girl had.
The world is more full ofsuffering than they can
understand, and that poem Ilooked it up afterwards pretty
much embodies how Clay his wholedemeanor.
(23:52):
And to see that these werewritten.
You know he developedindependently of this poem, uh,
this poem and like, but it's so.
That is the history and I thinkthat's the takeaway from all of
that.
History is that the sufferinggoes so deep you cannot fully
(24:14):
take it in without going insane,almost you know, or being
compelled to do something aboutit.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
So we get done with the tour and then we go see Miss
Janice Kelsey and Janice Kelseyand her brother are talking to
us and are saying we livethrough these children's marches
.
Our parents didn't go on themarch because they were afraid
they would lose jobs and theywouldn't be able to support us.
(24:44):
But we decided.
Janice said I'm in high school,I'm going to walk out of school
and I'm going to go to thismarch.
What impacted any of that storyor any?
What do you remember from fromher talking to us about that
time?
Speaker 1 (25:03):
You know I, I asked her some questions at the Q and
a and I think that's where Ijust, I think I brought it more
back to where we are now and Ijust can't, I can't, can't keep
from thinking, wow, how far havewe fallen.
You know that that when peoplewithout the resources to protect
(25:25):
themselves to, you know,provide a lot for themselves
that had all of these thingsstacked against us, had the
wherewithal and the bravery andthe courage to do that, and
today everybody is so focused onthemselves and and you know she
had, she had kind of reflectedthat too, of like I worry about
(25:48):
today's youth and being socomplacent, and I think that's
really an indictment of you know, this person has lived it.
You can't be like, oh, what doyou know?
You know she lived it and shemade those sacrifices, her and
her brother, you know they wentto jail for this.
(26:09):
They risked potentially theirlives.
Well, not potentially, theyrisked their lives for stuff
like this.
And to hear someone say, well,why can't you do that?
Today?
I am old, I am now a source ofknowledge for you and you're not
(26:30):
taking advantage of it, thatone hit me.
Yeah, that one really, reallyhit me and it makes me concerned
, because this stuff reallyhasn't gone away, it's just
transformed.
And they pass the baton to usand we're like hey, look at me
me, me, me.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Yeah, one of the thing that hit me and I, like I
said, I've had the opportunityto have conversations with her
twice now and when we went theyear before, all the political
uneasiness and unrest of ourcountry hadn't happened yet.
So, from her perspective, whenshe told her story to us a year
over a year ago, it was more ofthe historical.
(27:11):
This would happen, happen to me, and her brother wasn't there.
Um, what amazed me this timewas she was now putting it into
the context of all the stuffthat has happened to us
politically right now.
And there was some anger, therewas some you guys are not doing
(27:33):
stuff, and I'm seeing this gobackwards and I'm seeing it go
backwards in front of my eyes,like I literally could have died
, I could have stayed in jailand, like you just said, me, me,
me, we don't care.
And you know what are we doing,what are we standing up for.
You know, to hear her brothersay, I outran the fire hose.
(27:57):
I was fast enough where Iwasn't tumbling down the streets
.
I was like, oh yeah, they werewilling to sacrifice and I
thought with my own soul, am Iwilling to sacrifice at that
level?
Maybe I don't need to, andmaybe I'm sacrificing a
different way, and this is.
You know how I'm trying to dothat, but it really touched home
(28:20):
to me to see her anger show upin the way that it did.
Just you know from the timethat I'd seen her before, and so
I know BJ had known her.
I don't know if he ever saidanything I'm looking forward to
because he kind of grew up withknowing her.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
I've met her son before I met her.
Yeah, I mean, but it's, I think, another part of that that
frustrated me and I'll, if weget to the whole, what word did
you write down?
I'll share it because I thinkit's still you can just hear it
(29:07):
is that we only hear aboutMartin Luther King.
We only hear about the bignames, but they weren't in that
instance.
They weren't the ones that weonly hear about Martin Luther
King.
We only hear about the bignames, but they weren't in that
instance.
They weren't the ones to makethe sacrifice.
And you have to dig so deep forthat story.
And it's just the intersectionof, yeah, she met him in passing
(29:29):
at these events, but then thestory, the greatness of that
story that's attributed to him,was carried out by her and her
brother and her classmates.
And I find that wild thatthere's such buried information
there.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
So you talk about the word.
What was the word that?
Speaker 1 (29:53):
So the word that was, what was the word that?
So the word that I wrote downand I forgot what exercise that
was, but it was kind of likepoem sort of thing um was
anathema.
That was, that was my word, andit still is uh, whenever I
think about this but it's not ofthe moment, it's of every
(30:13):
effort that has gone intoburying this information, how
hard it is to access this, howhard it is for people to accept
this, and how much people fightagainst this history as if it
will harm them All of that Alittle bit got into schools.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
We need to make sure we take it out so that we can
act like we forget it or itnever happened.
Exactly, I like that.
Yeah, I do, I do.
All right, so get back.
We're just, you know, we'restill, you know, processing
thinking hey, we just had Clayall day, we just had Janice
Kelsey.
We decide the next day we meettogether, kind of go through
(31:02):
some more story stuff, and thenwe decide to drive to Selma.
And so are you having theexpectations of Selma other than
that we're going there, we'regoing to see a different part of
history, or are you trying tolook at Selma from different
lens now, because you now seeBirmingham?
What is your?
Speaker 1 (31:23):
I didn't really know what to expect.
So a lot of my family lives inAlabama, so family reunions, so
I'm used to the Alabama vibe,but the country, country,
country, part of it.
So see, in Birmingham I waslike, oh, they have a building
here.
I didn't know what to expect,you know.
(31:45):
So I was thinking Selma wouldbe a little bit closer to that,
but I still I didn't know whatto expect.
And actually on that ride Ireally got to connect with
Christine.
So I didn't really have time tolike have expectations, just
because we were just talkingabout life and mostly like kids,
because I'm just like how doyou handle two girls?
So she was like help me out alittle bit there, um, you know.
(32:09):
But yeah, I mean, when we gotthere, I was like, okay, this is
closer to what I expected.
I don't know how I felt aboutthe bridge still.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
I mean, it's a you know, we just, I think you just
turn back to the movie Selma andrealize all that happened on
this bridge that literally onlytakes 10 minutes to walk over.
I mean, it's not, you know,it's just a bridge like any
other bridge in the country,except for the historical
context, you know.
And you know, as I've watchedSelma several times now and
(32:48):
watching it after I've been onthe bridge.
So the first time I watched itbefore I got to the bridge.
And then I'm trying to rememberstuff Now I've walked on the
bridge, stood on the bridge, andI'm now watching the movie
again and then seeing and Idon't know how historically
correct the movie is like whatpart of the bridge they were
(33:08):
actually milling on, or you know, when they walk back out and
you know, at the other end ofthe bridge where the you know,
the Army and everybody elseNational Guard folks were at and
then trying to get past it, andthen that walk back to the AME
church where they started themarch from to get to the bridge.
It just the bridge, doesn't meana lot until you kind of you're
(33:32):
kind of putting yourself wherethe thing other than for me the
big thing about the bridge iswhy can't we change the name of
the bridge?
Why do we have to keep callingit the Pettus Bridge?
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Well, the historical title of Alabama has decided.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
you know, this man or this figure in history is more
important than what happenedthere and everything was named
Pettus there.
I mean, it was like it was downyou know Anything at the.
So we walked from the bridge tothe AME church and then we're
kind of sitting on the steps atthe AME church and just kind of
(34:05):
talking around there.
Was there anything?
Speaker 1 (34:08):
thoughts come to your mind, anything as we're at the
church or Not necessarily cometo your mind anything as we're
at the church or um, notnecessarily I mean it was late,
I think I was.
Just I was surprised at howquiet the town was, even though
I mean it was late, but itwasn't that late.
We didn't see any other people.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
The project housing was right across the street from
the church.
So there's a little bit ofactivity and you usually see at
least most of the projecthousing that I've been to on an
evening.
That's warm and everything andthere's usually a lot happening
and I was surprised as well thateverybody was inside.
I don't know if summer is anydifferent.
(34:49):
I don't know if they shut downthose streets at a certain time
for any reason.
That's true, it was very quiet.
The next day we're getting inthe vans and we're heading out
to the museum.
We have Dr Mack on the.
(35:11):
I don't know if you were ableto hear him.
I think in some of the bands hewasn't very what was your
thought about?
him giving us a preview ofwhat's expected in the museum
and how it's going to go throughthe museum or just history in
general.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
I didn't really get any what to expect in the museum
.
I was more interested in justhis research methodology for his
calendar.
I still have it up.
It's on my nightstand, yeah,you know.
So I looked there and I'm justlike, wow, this is again history
that you have to.
Someone had to dig and dig anddig for this, you know, and and
(35:52):
refine it over years and I'mjust like, wow, you know, this
seems like stuff that you shouldjust have readily available.
Why is it all?
Speaker 2 (36:02):
of that.
Why is it that his calendar,after he does all the digging,
is what now Google uses for allthese figures?
Because nobody else was willingto do that research.
And for him to find a personthat had a significance on every
single day, knowing that he hadto find a thousand people to
get 365 days that somethingsignificant about their life is
(36:26):
on that day in history, just youknow.
And for him, I mean he's got torelive it kind of like Clay did
you know, every day, as he'swriting about these people,
because you know we take greatstuff about him, but he's got to
learn all the other stuff thathappened to him in order for him
to put that calendar together.
Oh my gosh, yeah, okay.
(36:47):
So, then now we get to themuseum, and so are you already.
Have you researched or knownanything about the museum at
this point?
So you have no clue what toexpect whatsoever when we go to
the Equal Justice Museum.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
I had no idea.
You know, I saw we got thereand the politics head in me was
like ooh, look, how close is thecapital.
Is it state capital?
Because that's like one of mygoals If I'm in a state capital,
I want to see their capitalbuilding.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
So that's where I was .
Speaker 1 (37:23):
I'm like, okay, hey, it's right there.
And then Scott was like, hey,maybe we can go see it.
So that's where I was.
And then I was like, ooh, somefood.
Uh, so you can see howblindsided I was about to be
because I was buildings and food.
And then boom, um, you know,and I was just like why are
these people so uptight?
(37:44):
You know this, you know, likethe, the people working there,
I'm like, okay, I get it, it's amuseum.
But you know, it's like thatthreshold, like once, once you
get to that counter, it's justlike the whole vibe changes,
like over here it's fun and foodand it's sunny, and then it's
just dark and they were justreal solemn and I was like that
(38:06):
was my first warning.
I was like uh-oh, what's aboutto happen?
And then you walk around thatwall and then that big ocean
wall.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
I was like no, I already know what this is about
well, you can just talk about afew of the things that that
impacted you in the museum.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
Yeah, you said maybe two of them.
Yeah, yeah, I don't know.
I don't know Everything.
Everything, I think about thatmuseum at least once or twice a
week, every week, since then.
You know the ocean, that one, Ithink, and it didn't really
(38:52):
have much, it was just oceanwaves, and you know people make
serenity soundtracks about oceanwaves and stuff.
There was nothing serene aboutthis because you knew, you knew
exactly what that meant and Ithink after going around that
(39:13):
wall and then the, the sculptureexhibit, was, I'm like okay,
yeah, um, seeing the, seeing thenumbers, and I I watched the
whole the trade and I'm justlike, wow, I knew the number.
(39:34):
But to see the number and tosee the path and to know that
one of those lines carried me init somehow, some way, was just
like.
I watched it a few times and Iwas just like why can't I record
this?
So I just kept looking at itand looking at it.
What else?
(39:56):
The?
Speaker 2 (39:58):
You go to where they're waiting to be shipped
and you're in those bars andthey have, like the ghost or
whatever that they're giving toyou.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Yeah, that one we didn't take as much time with.
We didn't listen to everysingle one because I forgot
there was something before thatthat we were just fixated on.
I think it was still just asculpture on the hole on the
(40:35):
wall where it said slavery iswhat did it say?
Slavery is the closest thing tohell on earth.
It was something like that andthat that just threw me.
And then I was just looking atall the little articles and just
like the really little stuffand by that time my mind was so
fixated on that.
I was just looking at all thelittle articles and just like
(40:55):
the really little stuff and bythat time my mind was so fixated
on that I was like, oh hey,this is.
I kind of withdrew for a second.
I was like, oh cool, this is aweird construction.
How did they do?
That's where my mind was withthose Like how did they get that
?
They have two panes of glassand then they shoot a projection
.
And then is like pay attention.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Oh okay, it's like a defense mechanism, right,
because you've been hit.
Wait a minute.
I got to step back for a second, so let me find something else
that my mind can just thinkbefore I jump in, because if the
rest of this, we've only beenhere for 10 minutes in this
first section, if the rest ofthis is like this, there's
(41:33):
something I got to.
I have to think about somethingelse for a second before I can
jump back into it Is that yeah,yeah, it's, it probably was.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
You know, being honest, and I think at that
point you know now, knowing whatwas going to come next, you
knowing it's like I don't know.
I I guess I grew up old schooland hopefully I don't offend
anybody but you know when you'reabout to get a woman, you know
the pain and you know that itwas coming, because you know.
(42:04):
But the anticipation it waslike that, you know, but
emotional, like I know what'snext.
I know after the slave trade, Iknow you know all the way up
they're probably going to endwith prison.
But see, walking through it,I'm like I'm gonna have to walk
through this, I can't gobackwards.
And yeah, so that you know,sitting in the theater and
(42:29):
looking at the sculpture, thesculpture one, um.
And then there was the other,the lynching one, um.
The little theaters that theyhave.
We did skip one just causewe're like um time and we wanted
to go get some other stuff.
But again, I think the partthat stood out to me the most,
which I, uh, I told my wife andshe was like that was really
(42:52):
mean, kellen, I'm like, hey, itwas honest, um was when I saw
the white woman leaving thetheater crying and the it just
came out and I was like good andit was like I was like good, I
hope she cries the entire timeand I hope she tells everybody
about this.
You know, and I still by that,I'm just like this.
(43:13):
Yeah, this is trauma that wedeal with in so many insidious
ways today.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
They have the segregation section that has all
the signs.
These signs are real.
These signs were hangingsomewhere.
This isn't like it's made up amuseum and put the stuff in
there.
This is for real.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
Yeah, and then the jars.
I think that was one foreverybody we almost missed it.
We almost missed the jars.
It was like in a pocket andthen we walked past it.
I'm like, wait, what were those?
Bj was like, oh, I don't know.
I'm like no, no, no, let's goback.
(43:59):
And then we were looking at it.
We were just like huh, we werejust trying to see how many were
in Colorado and just the factthat there were Colorado jars up
there, I know.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
And, like you said, we think because of the
population being so small thatstuff didn't happen.
But a lot of history that'shere that we don't even think
about because we just thinkabout the South, and to see
those jars and to see Josh gothrough and find his actual
family was just oh my God.
(44:32):
They allowed him to take apicture next to the jar of his
family which is like oh, my gosh.
It was there the voting sectionright Did you?
you know when you think about,because you're now in politics
and you're thinking about aright to vote and what you know.
I really got to guess thesejelly beans.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
That one really got me, because Colorado we're going
through some of that actively.
They're doing those same thingsnow and I testified in front of
our House and Senate about thisstuff and I'm like you guys are
literally doing the same thingand you don't learn.
You don't learn, you just keepdoing destructive stuff.
And you know, just seeing thatand that's exactly what was in
(45:19):
my mind is these jars and how,how asinine it seems.
Now you know, but they justchanged a few things, but it's
the same thing.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Well, and I think that the folks that are even at
the polling place, that are thepoll workers, they couldn't have
figured any of that out, theycouldn't have answered any of
those questions.
They yeah, how many polls werethere?
So, oh, it was just, it wasjust so blatant how they just
would figure out any possible,like you said, which is
(45:48):
happening now.
How do we stop people fromparticipating in our democratic
process?
It's just, oh my gosh.
Then you said we get to theprison side right Now we're in
the sea.
The mass incarceration.
Did you listen to some of thestories from I listened to two.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
At that point, I think my mind was just so blown.
I'm just like I know what thisis about, because this is
something that's more, moretangible, you know, and I'm just
like I can't sit here andlisten to every single one of
these.
I think, by that point, I wasjust like I was so mad at that
lady laughing, laughing.
But yeah, I was like it at thatlady.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
But yeah, I was like it's time to go.
The reflection room was thatkind of cool to see all the
figures in history that are allthe way up to the top of the
wall.
It's just a lot of figures, Imean.
We've seen those.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
Yeah, by that point I think I was just like oh, now
they're trying to make you feelbetter.
But I was just like but look athow it ended before they're
like hey you know, here's someart, exactly.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
Here's some people who got through it, yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
Did you guys go?
Speaker 2 (47:09):
over to the lynching pillar.
Things that are hanging.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
We did not do the ceiling one, we did the
sculpture park.
I didn't know where that onewas.
I think it was inside.
We were looking and I think wewere both done.
We were like we'll come backanother year or something.
We did the sculpture park, thatone.
(47:35):
That was a hard one too, youknow, because I can't.
That one brought me back.
So we're talking about goingback in history and seeing, like
the holding cells and I'm like,as big as I am, I'm like I
couldn't.
I couldn't imagine.
I couldn't imagine being inthis little shack.
(47:56):
I couldn't imagine doing all ofthese things.
And yeah, I, yeah.
And then the book and seeingevery single one of my family
names up there, I was just likewow, and they were all like high
level.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
Yeah, so overall the trip, you said you were glad
that you went on the trip and Iknow what two or three insights
from the trip that you came backwith that you said, um, either
I have to do something, or thisis how it impacted me, or when
(48:36):
you're telling this story toyour wife and you're letting her
know the parts of it.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
It's really just history made tangible.
There's this abstract historymade tangible.
I think that's the you knowthere's, there's this abstract
concept of history.
You know that there were thesepeople that did these things and
that lived through these thingsor perhaps did not live through
these things, and I think,through just education, you're
(49:10):
so desensitized from GeorgeWashington, abraham Lincoln, you
know just, they're just names,they're just things, but then to
see it, to feel it, to touch it, to smell it, you know to be in
it is it brings it to life in away that you just can't no book
(49:32):
, no audio book, no video canreplicate, and it drives it home
to a point where you can dosomething with it.
And I think that's why I get sofrustrated.
The second part is with JaniceKelsey, because she has always
been that, because she's a partof that history, and for people
(49:53):
to be, for her, to be likenobody's doing anything, and
then to see all this and torealize nobody did anything.
Why is this book the size of anoffice building, with all of
these names on here that are insize maybe 72 font.
Nobody did anything.
(50:14):
And I'm just like that's whatis go, kept going, like, okay,
somebody should do something.
You should do something aboutthis.
You should do something.
Speaker 2 (50:28):
No, just sit there well, and I know that you are
and you know I.
It was fun.
We did the NAACP day at theCapitol and I got to see you and
you know the things that you're.
You know just knowing thatyou're down there, that you're
doing stuff.
So when you come back andyou're and you're saying I want
(50:52):
to make a difference and not doanything, what has it been like
since you've come?
Speaker 1 (50:56):
back and the things that you've been trying to be
part of Hard.
You know it's a different typeof hard.
You know there is.
This is definitely one of thosemoments of before this and
after this.
You know where I now questionthe way that people regard me
and think about me, because Iknow the history of why they're
(51:17):
doing that.
You know, and it becomes soobvious.
You know some things and itmakes you want to push harder.
Knowing that you havecomparatively infinitely more
resources than janice and herbrother did, um, you know, but
(51:38):
knowing that you're facing thesame thing, yeah the same thing.
I'm like it's just, it's justtheir grandkids, but it's the
same thing, you know, and justlike, okay, so what can I do
with more?
I should be doing more um, andthat's.
I think that's yeah, so it's.
It's been hard, but I thinkI've pushed further and harder.
(52:04):
I've definitely pissed off alot of people, um, but again I
feel like the lady leaving thetheater good Good, you should be
mad.
Um, you know, and I.
I think in that way it has alsogalvanized and allowed me to
push harder, because I knowwhat's at stake.
Speaker 2 (52:21):
That's huge.
That is huge.
Yeah, cause you, when we thinkabout you, know, when you're
Janice Kelsey's age and nowyou're telling the story of what
you did and how it impacted, doI want to be sitting mad
because things haven't changed?
You don't right?
(52:42):
You want to say what can I doin my community?
What can I do?
And you can't do everything, buteven that one little thing,
like you're saying you go totestify, you and you're, and
you're saying, because you'renow embedded and you may have
been a little bit before, butjust maybe in a different way,
um, you know one of the things,yeah, like I went to the day and
I had it just assured.
You just said naacp out, itdidn't say anything else, it
(53:04):
just said naac, state conferenceon it.
And I get to go into that, gointo the house, and there's
somebody in the house that wantsme to turn my shirt around and
inside out, because I guessapparently they think the NAACP
is a political statement and youcan't have any political.
And then to hear the story oflast week there were people that
(53:29):
were wearing shirts about guncontrol, which is a political
issue, and that they were okay,no-transcript, and to just go.
Speaker 1 (53:58):
we can't Wow.
Yeah yeah, they made you guysturn your shirts inside out.
Speaker 2 (54:05):
I was going to be in that room Now.
The other group was withSenator Coleman and he went to
the Senate and they had the sameshirt on and they even got to
go up where the dais was andthen they got to take pictures
up there with their shirts on inthe Senate.
It was the House that somebodyin the House had an issue with
(54:28):
and they went to security andthe security you know, and I'm
like, and they went to securityand the security you know, and
I'm like, so you know, obviouslythey didn't tell me who it was,
just because then that would be.
Speaker 1 (54:39):
you know, I don't know who it is they can figure
it out.
Speaker 2 (54:44):
Yeah, just to be there and go.
Okay, where have we come to?
Is there anything else thatyou're doing in the community or
ways that you're.
Speaker 1 (54:58):
You know I've been.
I've been working kind of ontwo things concurrently I think
a lot of politicians.
The reason I make them so madis because I can't figure out
where to place me.
So one that I think still lotof politicians.
The reason I make them so madis because I can't figure out
where to place me.
(55:19):
So one that I think still needssome more work is the Black
History Bill from this year.
That one had a lot of oppositionfrom both sides, unfortunately,
and that's one that I wasreally hoping would get far this
year, and that was just to havesome standardized history for
students that teachers canchoose to draw from.
(55:40):
It wasn't forcing them and itwas just again listening to that
of Martin Luther King is enough.
That was a real publicstatement by a representative in
Colorado from 2025.
That's crazy to me.
I don't know why that wasn'tunanimous.
(56:01):
It passed out of both, orpassed out of the House, for
sure the Senate.
I have to double check and seewhere it cause it.
Kind of everybody kept slowplaying it, um, you know.
And then the other one was thegun control stuff.
Just because I'm I really afterwalking through that park and
(56:24):
looking at all of the war stuff,and there was a one plaque that
said if they had guns theywould not be in this situation,
and that's one thing that thestate's trying to take away.
And I'm like whoa, whoa, whoa,whoa, whoa.
Have we not learned our historyhere?
You know so it's, it's it'sbeen.
You know, being on both sidesof that has been really
(56:44):
interesting, you know.
So I've been trying to reallyshow people where, you know, gun
rights are civil rights.
You know, do you really thinkthat people would have been
rolling up and down DynamiteHill if they were armed like
that?
You know there were a few.
There were a few, but not thenumbers that we have today, you
(57:08):
know.
So you know things like that.
And bringing it outside of thisweird culture war that's going
on now, it's like thinking thatit's all rednecks and everything
like that.
You know, I'm I'm trying tointroduce people to ida b wells.
Um, there's a reason that shesaid the stuff that she said,
and I feel like we should reallytake in that part of our
(57:31):
history too.
Even I think janice kelsey wassaying some of the same thing.
She was a little bit morehesitant but she was like kind
of has its place, so justbringing more awareness to it in
a larger context and groundingthat in history and not just
(57:54):
obsession, but history there's ahistorical purpose.
Speaker 2 (57:58):
Well, thank you so much for being willing to share
today and talk about your tripand your.
You know through your eyes whichis so important and I'm
assuming you would go back againat some point to go see it and
I want to make that happen.
And so if you're watching andyou're a person who's seeing
this and saying I would love togo through this trip, please
(58:21):
contact me.
Or if you know Kellen and youcontact him and we want to take
a trip, we're looking at payinganother trip in September and
then again in January, maybe onethat has spouses on it, one
that has spouses on it, one thathas, you know, to kind of
process that and so just tryingto figure out what that looks
like.
But the main thing is that wecome back and we make a
difference and that we try tomake an impact and we don't just
(58:42):
say, oh, it was a nice trip.
It's really a trip that I thinkhas enlightened all of us in a
way that says or just called usto action in so many things, and
so our journey together is notnowhere near completely there
being done, because we are goingto continue to spend time
together.
And do you have any closingthoughts as we, as we in the
(59:04):
show today that you would lovefor everybody who's listening to
hear.
Speaker 1 (59:09):
Yeah, I mean, if you have a chance to go, go, don't
have expectations, just go.
I'm definitely going to try andget all of my friends that I
can, especially those inbusiness.
I think that business peopleneed to hear this too.
Politicians, yeah, but they'renot going to listen.
But business people.
I really hope that morebusiness people go they make an
(59:35):
impact on the ground.
Speaker 2 (59:37):
They're not screwing around and that kind of stuff,
and they actually influence ourpoliticians to create the bills
and the laws based on what'sgoing to help our economy and
our ability to culture itself.
Well, thank you.
If you haven't subscribed yet,go ahead and subscribe and
notifications, as we have justso much incredible content from
(59:58):
people that are just like himthat we get to talk and tell
their stories.
So I thank you for being partof the Alabama edition and I
look forward to having you guyslook at more shows and then
being on trips with you.
So don't forget to teach yourGod's greatest gift he loves you
(01:00:23):
, if you allow him to, and thenwe'll talk to you on the next
one.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.