January 19, 2023 • 41 mins
Inspired by April’s appearance on a panel entitled, “Religion is…divisive,” and in the shadow of Martin Luther King Jr Day, we dig into the ways religion can be used to defend or to dismantle systemic oppression. Together, we think through what we believe comes after the ellipses (we don’t LOVE ‘Religion is… divisive.’), weaving in our understanding of the role of religion historically and contemporarily.
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Read more about David Kyuman Kim (Executive Director, Center for the Comparative Studies in Race and Ethnicity, Stanford University): https://ccsre.stanford.edu/people/david-kyuman-kim
Watch Eboo Patel’s TED Talk, “Building bridges - religions’ role in our societies:” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYLesUKHPGc
Learn more about Dr. Gabor Maté: https://drgabormate.com/
Discussion and reflection questions:
- What in this episode is new for you? What have you learned and how does it land?
- What is resonating? What is sticking with you and why?
- What feels hard? What is challenging or on the edge for you?
- What feelings and sensations are arising and where in your body do you feel them?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Inspired by April's appearanceon a panel entitled religion is
(00:04):
dot, dot dot divisive. And inthe shadow of Martin Luther King
Jr. Day, we dig into the waysreligion can be used to defend
or to dismantle systemicoppression.
(00:25):
You're listening to the JoyousJustice podcast,
a weekly show hosted by AprilBaskin with Tracie Guy Decker.
in a complex world in whichsystemic oppression conditions
us to deny others and our ownhumanity. let's dedicate
ourselves to the pursuit andembodiment of wholeness, love
and thriving in the world. Andin our own lives. It's time to
(00:47):
heal and flourish our way to amore joyous and just future.
Tracie, Hey, friend, Hey,friends, in April. So
we're recording this on aSunday. And on the Friday before
(01:09):
this Sunday, I had the honour ofbeing asked to speak at a
seminar at Columbia that Ihonestly didn't fully understand
what it was about, like Ithought I was speaking to like,
a seminar of undergrad orgraduate students. But it turns
out it's like, intellectualsfrom multiple universities who
(01:29):
are coming together fist projectand doing like a discussion
series like an intellectualdiscussion series and inviting
scholars and subject matterexperts on a range of issues to
respond to the prompt religionand the subtext is American
religion is dot, dot dot. Andthey've gone through political
(01:51):
that I honestly don't rememberthe other ones they mentioned
the other day, but um,hypothetically, like healing or
something. And the one that Iwas invited, along with four
other co panelists to speak towas American religion is
divisive. And that conversationwasn't exactly private, per se,
(02:11):
but it was a closed doorconversation, but I thought I
would share some of the ideasthat I had and some of the
interesting bits and things thatI took away from that exchange
of ideas from some leading edgethinkers on on these subjects.
And I thought that ourrelationship and partnership in
(02:36):
this podcast would be a greatplace for us to do what April
and Tracy do with conversationsand put our unique intellectual
spiritually. And social justiceLee inspired sank on this prompt
American religion is ellipses.
To visit of and and I will sayto this is like my first thought
(02:58):
when I hear that when I readthat, and also to also one of
the professors in the space alsoinvited a reframe of that
prompt, that I think has someinteresting implications, which
is, I think it was somethingalong the lines of religion as
it's developed within the UnitedStates, is divisive, right. And
so when I either when I firsthear this, my thought is, this
(03:21):
is a common thought that a lotof people say and think that I
kind of front, I would, I wouldbegin with, I don't agree with
in the sense that it's so veryeither or, and I have a both end
approach. So I ultimately doagree with it. But it's so like,
such a polarizing and simplisticviewpoint, and also was rooted
(03:46):
in and I don't mean to insultmany different people, and a
number of whom, who say thiseither had been witnessed to and
or have personally been harmedby encounters with religion in
America, so that and so that'snot something to dismiss. But my
first thought is, this is what alot of people say. And as a
(04:09):
coach, as someone who thinkscritically about a number of
issues in the world, I'm someonewho's much more of a fan of
nuance, and this is very much aboth and situation for me. And
my first thought is, I don'tknow if it's so much that
religion is divisive, so much assystemic oppression, and
(04:31):
histories of harm are divisiveand religion has been both
complicit in and also hasactively serve to fight has
played all different kinds ofroles in the context of systemic
oppression. And and in religionat times throughout history and
(04:52):
in the United States has, hascertainly been used as a vehicle
for both harm and healing. Andto me, if religion didn't exist,
whatever might be in its form,or that there would be some
other vehicle that either wouldbe created or would have that
was in existence that would havebeen leveraged to be in service
(05:12):
of systems of oppression, whichdoesn't mean that in some cases
with certain religions, incertain ways that some of the
origins of systemic oppressionmight have some of their roots,
say in elements of Christianhegemony. And the ways during
like, when, you know, whenpeople were helped me, I'm not
I'm not as into that facet ofhistory, but like in the Middle
(05:35):
Ages and stuff, where theylearned in sociology, that the
crucible, thank you, rightcrusades, but even before that,
around that time, like whenpeople were peasants and things,
like the ways that the church,the in, in collaboration in, you
know, in terms of beingcomplicit with state oppression,
yeah, or being in service of it,you know, started to shift some
(05:58):
of the fields of theology tobetter serve people working
themselves to the bone until theday they die, in the hopes that
they would then go to heaven.
So, so that's a little bit of myinterest. So I was I was a bit
more polished in certain wayswhen I was speaking, because I
have eight minutes to share mybits. And so a shared a little
(06:20):
bit of what I've shared. Now,I'm a little bit more relational
and freeform with you around it,Tracy and with our friends
listening in. But um, that's alittle bit of my intro for it.
And a number of interestingideas were shared people who are
really studying this indifferent ways. A really cool
leader bringing in some joyousjustice align thoughts. I'm not
(06:42):
sure if I'm pronouncing his namecorrectly, hopefully I will,
because I feel like we mighteventually be like professional
friends or colleagues in someway. He's a cool guy. David, you
thought his last name might behuman? Yeah, human Kim. He is a
director of I don't remember theprecise name, but essentially
the racial justice center atStanford, what we will include
(07:04):
information about all of this inthe show notes. And, and he
shared a piece in advance aboutthat was published in a journal
about love and the role of lovein the public square in the
context of these conversations,and also to I loved his I was
like, Oh, I didn't I think ofthat when he was speaking. He
said, and so there's thisquestion. And then there's also
the, there's the questions thatfollow it to me around what, in
(07:28):
light of the ways that religion,American religion is and is not
divisive? What are theopportunities for solidarity
that we have? What do we want toaspire to? And I was like, Oh,
nothing to say that. That's alsolike, it's nice to because he's
not that much better. You know,he's, he's, I believe he's older
(07:48):
than me. And, like, okay, okay,so I have more time to integrate
all these different ways of myknowing. But I was like, wait,
wait to bring in the joyousjustice element here, David,
that that was interesting. Sobut I want us to have our own
conversation rather than now.
So. So that's my intro, Tracy, Ipass it over to you to respond
to me to share your own thoughtsabout it. Bring in any juicy
(08:11):
anecdotes or metaphors, whateveris arising for you. Yeah,
you're welcome. I have similarthoughts to you in terms of the
like, wow, that's very eitheror, like, I feel like, I'm
seeing that a lot. I mean, justpersonally, in my social media
feed, I saw somebody recentlywho was like, this thing has
this bad effect, therefore, weshould get rid of it.
(08:34):
It's like my stone metaphorthing.
Like, like, yeah, yeah. It'slike, so your stone metaphor,
specifically, is that peoplesay, you know, this stone has
been used as an object forpeople. So we need to get stone.
And not recognizing that stonescan also be used to build and to
heal muscles and heal. Yeah. SoI think there's that there's
(08:54):
also like, even something thatlike, like an act like it can be
done poorly. Right? Yield,right, like, bad doctors. That
doesn't mean we should throwaway medicine, right?
As a field, and that's what thispoint is, on social media,
(09:15):
right? Andin medicine, right and about
about medicine. It's sofascinating, because there's so
many ways in mainstream medicinethat has deeply ingrained that
has deeply embedded within it.
systemic oppression and bias anddifferent things. But like, that
would be really ill advised.
Just like, like Yes, wait needsmassive change. And also, it
(09:36):
has, it also saves lives everysingle day, even as it fails. A
number of people I still thinkoverall and more often than not,
is saving lives. Like that's animportant variable. Yeah, even
if we levy a hefty critique at agiven field or
(09:57):
institution. Yeah. Sospecifically about religion
being divisive, and one of thethings that, you know, that also
comes up for me trying to saywhat order to do this in is that
it's been my experiencespersonally with individuals. So
I'm just going to name that, butit's been my experience, that
(10:18):
when when folks are like, fullygrounded and centered and
comfortable in their own face,that others faiths are not a
threat. Right like that, theycan learn about it and see what
resonates and see where it'sdifferent. And that's all okay.
And then folks who are maybe alittle less, they don't even
(10:41):
necessarily recognize that thereis Yeah. But for whatever
reason, their faith feel is ismore vulnerable, they feel like
then all of a sudden, anotherfaith becomes a threat and must
be amped down or controlled, ordenied or proved to be
(11:04):
racial traumathat like that I've, that I've
noticed personally as, as aformer scholar of religion, so
I've spent a lot of time with alot of religious folks from
different from differenttraditions. So this is something
that like comes up when we leavewhen I hear that phrase that
religion is, is divisive. Youknow, I think of my religion as
(11:26):
like, I don't know, like, I'mborrowing a little from George
Carlin had a bit, but that Idon't want to get into but if
you know it, like, you'll knowthat that's where I get, it was
kind of like a pair ofcomfortable shoes, that like,
really feel good to me and makeit easier for me to walk longer
distances. I would never expectmy shoes to fit, you know, I'm
(11:49):
happy to let you try toyour shoes are lovely Tracy, I
have seen them.
But that's sort of like, and Iwould never deny you your own
shoes that are made to fit yourwarmth. And so that's, that's
another thing that sort of comesup to me that I think helps to
(12:12):
further for me, kind of explainwhat I noticed before, like, if
other people's shoes aren'tquite comfortable, while they're
walking or like some Somethingabout it just isn't quite quite
working, then, you know, itbecomes more important that
(12:33):
every match. So that those aresome of the things that were
coming up for me immediately,because it's it's not actually
religion. It's not religionthat's divisive. It's the
requirement, or the expectation,or the demand or the insert verb
(12:58):
here that we all agree aboutreligion.
Well, that's one. Right? Well,so that's one facet of and then
so here's the interesting thingis that I don't have the full
background on the purpose of theseminar. So there's like part of
me that wants to bring incertain things that were said.
But I think, perhaps that Ithink that they My sense is
(13:18):
maybe they're like, potentiallypreparing a white paper or a
series of things around it. So Isay, I'm going to be like,
lightly what you said spawned acouple of different thoughts
that I'm really excited to sharenow, Tracy, that are like,
that's fresh thinking. So I'm,so one of the pieces that like,
you know, Eboo Patel is in theroom who runs interfaith
America, that's that does reallyimportant work. And he shared
(13:42):
his TED Talk that speaks tothat's worth checking out his
TEDx talk that speaks to all ofthe different positive things
that religion has brought toAmerican life, like he notes
that a large majority ofhospitals are faith based. And
they serve a wide clientele,that a number of universities
(14:04):
that his personal narrative thathis family has deeply benefited
from the resources offered tohis father say I think it's
funny we went to Notre DOM as asa South Asian Muslim man that
they you know, that there's analso that a large, like a large
percentage of it 60%, or somelarge percentage of social
(14:27):
services in this country and invarious parts of the countries
are through differentinstitutions. So that was seven,
I feel like there were that wasbrought into that was a part of
the some of the pre readingsthat were sent. And that's
something that's out in theether. So I feel comfortable
saying that. But one thing thatI wanted to bring up that was
attention I felt in theconversation that evolved to is
that I think you're naming onefacet of the ways that religion
(14:51):
can was a reason why religioncan be divisive, and I would add
some other pieces that I thinkyou're aware of that also. Both
didn't did it explicit. We cometo mind, but as I heard people
talking about other things in away that I felt like was
missing, Steven and lightacknowledgement, just like just
a subtle, you know, like prefaceor, or caveat that a number of
(15:16):
different institutions orindividuals or people who had
certain negative intentions canuse religion at times of the
Christian church or in a butalso other religious vehicles to
for incitement for theincitement of violence, right,
or for the restricting ofpeople's civil civil liberties
(15:40):
or different things along thatnature. And there was an
interesting or historically toyour point earlier, like for
justification forjustification, right, you know,
that like that a number ofpeople, I think, would say, in
really compelling ways that thatwasn't the church, but that, you
know, the kk k USD crosses,right, like the brand crosses,
it was, it was religiousiconography.
(16:04):
Certainly agents of the church,during slavery, used Christian
doctrine like,which is like an example of what
I alluded to earlier. But Ithink when you get into the
specificity of it of the waythat it starts to get really
visceral and very upsetting veryquickly, right, that it's not
when when I say that, thatreligion can be complicit in
(16:25):
systems of oppression that canseem somewhat distance, as
opposed to people were incitedby their churches or houses of
worship, to target, maim, andmurder, and to incite racial
terror, right. And so that'sright. And so. So somebody said
something that was reallyinteresting that I think,
(16:48):
perhaps I should honor thecontainer of the confidentiality
of the container, but I want tosay something off of it. So one
thing to think about islike, and
there's obviously a lot ofdiversity there, diversity, but
are there certain ways thatreligion takes form and across
(17:11):
different experiences, the waythat it works, and it functions
often not always, but in anumber of within a number of
different communities,certainly, within Islam, Judaism
and Christianity, it talks, itgoes into the realm of like,
spirit and energy in differentways. And it's different
(17:33):
orientations with that, and inin context in the United States.
Right now I'm reading, I'mreally loving it, I think it's
the book that I was looking for,for the past few years, the myth
of normal by Dr. Gabor Ma Tei.
That is like combining all thethings I've been working to
combine about like feelings, andspirit and body and emotions and
(17:55):
ailments and mental healthstuff, and combining all these
different things. And I'm in thesection where he's talking about
emotions and spirit of energyand different things of that
nature. And he says, but also,we just know this in general in
our culture that. And this tiesa little bit into what you spoke
about. In the previous episode,it's weird, like, it's basically
(18:19):
in our culture, there is anaversion to having meaningful
awareness around emotion andspirit, and energy and these
different things that are, well,for some people in their in
their ethos that doesn't existat all, from, from my
perspective, they very much doexist. So there's any number of
(18:40):
ways you can orient them, andit's actually quite powerful.
And it fills a particular needin the human experience. And
often, religion is one of theprimary vehicles that people get
touched and that people getnourishment and or potentially
poison around around thosesubjects in a way that's not so
(19:05):
regulated in other ways. There'sa bit of that in terms of mental
health and even that is stillsomewhat constrained around
emotions and feelings but interms of spirit or message like
energy, different things of thisnature, our our orientation, or
lack there of with a higherpower. But I just see how that
(19:26):
could add to the perspectiveabout something that we
otherwise don't know much about.
There's not another there's notreally any there's starting to
be now but over the over UShistory. Religion has largely
dominated that space indifferent ways. And there hasn't
(19:47):
been something external thatcould also outside of I mean,
there were some things that theywere attempted to be annihilated
through like indigenous culturesand also other cultures in the
world. And so and these arethings that really, honestly
compel a lot of people andheavily influenced how they live
(20:07):
and how they vote, what theyview about these things. And
people often cling to theirbeliefs about this real these
these experiences in differentways really intensely. And, and
there's just a way where thatdynamics we contributes to at
times people perceiving thatreligion is divisive, because
(20:27):
that's an area that's kind ofsimilar to but different in
terms of what I talk about,about collective trauma and how
people conflate interpersonalchallenges with often with what
I think is actually the burdenthat we all collectively carry
about the countries anddifferent systems and
structures, inability to supportand be accountable around those
(20:52):
histories of harm. And similarlywith this, there aren't many, at
least in American society, Ithink in other cultures, like in
Chinese culture, and otherethnic and indigenous cultures,
there are structures and formsof medicine and whole fields of
thinking and thought that helpthat is rooted and isn't
(21:12):
necessarily based on religion,but it is. But it's more similar
to what we've gotten in anAmerican society about how to
think about the weather, and howto think about math. And
similarly, they say like, theseare the meridians on your body.
And if you're feeling this, youcan likely expect this but in
America, a lot of that thinkingfor various reasons, has been
relegated, or anything remotelylike that has been relegated to
(21:37):
religious space. And I thinkthat, like my analysis is that
I'm happy for you to put yourbring your mind your perspective
on it, Tracy, is that energy isa huge part of our human
experience, whether it'semotions, or interpersonal
energy, or the energy that wefeel of collective experience,
whether it's around trauma orcollective joy, that this is a
(22:00):
part of the human experience.
And people have different needsaround this, and they need a
place for that to be met. And Ithink it at times has given
religious institutionsdisproportionate power, because
it was one of the only placeswhere people could go, to try in
some way to get those needs met.
(22:24):
And when you have what I alreadysaid, but we already just what
we already said about many, anumber of different religious
institutions being complicit orproactively a part of systems of
oppression. Also, then meldingdirectly and indirectly with
within the realm of spirit andenergy in our souls and our
emotions and our hearts and thethings that actually move us
(22:46):
right, like a number of my bestteachers and social change work
consistently say that most ofthese things, you can learn
things, but it needs to happenat the heart level through
stories through peopleconnecting with their own
stories to hearing otherpeople's stories and that area
at times in certain ways. And Ithink less so but historically
within the United States has,has been situated within
(23:10):
religious spaces. That that alljives for me. I think one of the
one of the ways that I wouldframe it I've written about
before, actually is because thatreligion has been one of the few
places where folks are able tosort of experience spiritual or
(23:31):
energetic, it's sociallyacceptable to experience those
things. And because religion hasbeen weaponized as a tool of the
oppressor, in some cases,especially, especially within
the 20th and 21st centuries,right, like some of the loudest,
oppressive voices say that theyare speaking with a Christian
(23:54):
lens. And so I know I have hadalmost like a stigma around
talking about it, becausebecause of the evil we're
thinking of that I you know,that I have inherited, and I'm
working to undo, like those whoweaponize God language are often
(24:14):
loud in the public square. And Idon't want to be associated with
them by using God language,right? And so I just like using
God language. Yeah. Similarly,which the effect of that right
is actually to abandon God tothose who would weaponize God?
(24:36):
At least in the public square.
And, and I think you can replacethat word, God with spirit and
our higher power, or sort ofmore than us more than the sum
of our parts, whatever wordworks for you. And I think for
me, that's a that's a part ofwhat has happened. And so in
(24:58):
terms of the difference of Andwhat you're describing, and the
ways in which it has beenweaponized for oppression and
and then and then stigmatizedright by different parts of
society so that especiallyespecially white Jews, right
(25:19):
there's there's very much likewhite reformed Jews talk about
God when we are in synagogue,maybe.
Right? Maybe read this a bitMaybe there's even jokes about
the center within like withinlike the within what's it
called? What's the JCS at theJewish Theological Seminary,
(25:39):
there's jokes about like, butleave God out, you know, you
within the concert like this isa very Ashkenazi Jewish
experience, among which manyactually
is a separation from ourChristian neighbors who talk
about God oppressorsat time. Yeah, who also, you
know, where I leveraged that orcontext of pilgrims or the
(26:02):
Holocaust or different momentsof acute. That's when I insert I
want to, I want to interjectwhen, when you have a moment,
Yeah, I'm ready. So like, I wasable to further think about
this, because I'm thinking aboutthis in this kind of way for the
first time. So like what I wastalking about before, one way I
would describe it is like, Idon't have an exact destination
(26:22):
here is the unknown. It's likeenergies that kind of go into
the realm of the unknown. Andthere's lots of our lives that
unknown in. And actually it canbe known again, as I mentioned
before, in other cultures, butI'm just putting the interesting
pieces together about how thesethings ended up working, in some
ways in healing, either inprofoundly healing ways or in
(26:43):
toxic ways when we rememberwhich some people like our
students would know this. Orpeople are our clients and
students who've been in ourcoaching and learning programs.
But, you know, joined a groupProfessor Georgia group talks a
lot about the different waysthat whiteness manifests, and
then that it manifested in thecontext of slavery, to mitigate
(27:05):
cognitive dissonance, andmassive emotional numbing was
one of them.
And sothat set up the and so that
became not only through that,but also through other means,
became a way of and similarlywith sexism. So you have like to
have these massive, longstanding sexism, even even
(27:28):
longer forms of deeplyentrenched systemic oppression.
And this is true of a lot ofsystemic oppression. But
especially in these cases, thatheavily in order for the
dehumanization, of differentpopulations to occur, and for
other people to be functional,there needed to be massive
(27:49):
numbing, and distancing fromemotion, to be the norm. And
yet, at the same time, duringthese formative years, in our
country, when there are manyimmigrant populations and
encounters of difference, andfighting for land, mostly in the
context of land theft, butdifferent people fighting for
(28:11):
lands, land and, and sovereigntyfrom different angles, or for
sovereignty or power over, andthere are things like fear that
are arising, and when there'snot a place. So I just, I
already kind of said this, butI'm also not thinking about like
bringing in other pieces ofthings that I know. And thinking
about, then who is left to dealwith fear, when society in
(28:34):
general is not is is activelyengaging in a range of emotional
numbing techniques to todecrease
the cognitive dissonancefrom being collectively directly
and indirectly, deeply engagedand invested in horrific
dehumanization in the context ofslavery in the context of the
(28:58):
attempted genocide of indigenouspeoples and in the context of
women in public space and inprivate space, being the targets
of her rific. dehumanization andviolence and oppression and at
times death, the jokes that arein our common parlance and our
language that many of us don'tknow, have a history of about
(29:18):
violence or against women. Andgender nonconforming folks, and
trans folks. Yeah, I'm justcontinuing to chew on this with
you, you know, that, that I'mnot fully sure, like I haven't
thought hasn't fully formed. Butthere's like an interesting
interplay here, where there'sthis void, and that doesn't mean
(29:39):
that even with all this tampingdown, people still have fears
and different feelings that theyneed an outlet to process in
some way if they're going to beable to be somewhat functional
human beings, even within this.
And since institutions, we'rereally locking it down in
different ways and you Evenwithin the mental health in
(30:02):
this, like, even within themental health system, there's
deep history around this for along time, right around calling
women hysterical around anysense of feeling about the
horrific trauma that is a partof life as a woman for most of
human history and pathologizingthat rather than being like, it
(30:26):
makes sense that she would wantto cry like it makes sense today
when things are much better thatmany women would want to cry for
days on end in light of thingsthey are navigating
and yet just so juicy soso maybe we can conclude by like
(30:49):
either taking methadoneretrofits mister a doctor, or
professor, but David Kim'sapproach, David Cuban Kim, and
pardon me, new friend, David Hi,hear this, I'm mispronouncing
your name or if anybody knowsyou can message us and
phonetically spell it for us ifyou've had the pleasure of
(31:11):
working with and getting to knowhim. Be on a quick introduction
on a seminar. What would we wantto put at the end of that
ellipses of like Americanreligion is? How would we want
to conclude it? Do you want togo first? Or would you like me
to go first, Tracy, I feel likeI want you to go first. But
(31:32):
also, if you don't want to,I you saying that I would like
to be able to say this in thefuture, or this is what I'd like
to say about it now.
Now, like, if we would want tolike just not not like as a
final thing, but just like, ifwe both agree that like
divisive, is overly simplistic,and also doesn't do anything to
(31:56):
acknowledge concepts like shoutout to Dr. King. You know, the
Reverend Dr. Martin Luther KingJr. and his conception of and
align movements, continuedchampioning of the concept of
Beloved Community, which alignsvery deeply with themes around
(32:18):
that we talked about it withinjoyous justice for how do we
eradicate oppression withouteradicating or targeting people,
but instead targeting systemsand patterns and behaviors, and
honoring the divinity within allof us and moving toward what we
call collective liberation and,and what different people within
the Christian community and fromDr. King's lineage call Beloved
(32:40):
Community, which is deeplyaligned with living in a world
where there is no poverty wherethere is justice, where people
have their needs met, wherethere is no war, where there is
no military, minimal or nomilitary where we are able to
coexist and live well and havemore peaceful unarmed approaches
to navigating complex complexstill going to happen, but in a
(33:03):
way, that's more humanized. Soanyway, so I forgot how I got on
that just now. But he wanted usto answer that. Yeah. But yeah,
we're going back to thatquestion. Yeah. So. So just to
say that, like, obviously,there's also really so like,
American religion is or likereligion is.
(33:25):
I feel like there's a couple ofdifferent ways that I could go
like, the first thing that cameto mind is complicated. That was
the very first thing that cameto mind. And then the second
thing, which is maybe acontroversial statement, Ooh,
let's hear it. American religionis providing services that
should be provided by the state.
The second one, that was mythought when I was listening to
(33:48):
Mr. Patel's talk was like, okay,that's true. And that's good,
but also the state should be,yeah, offering those
foundational services andoffering foundational inclusion.
Well, I love that. And I lovethat. Thank you. Those are two
great ones. I mean, I thinkthere's like endless ones we
could like do a for loop. So Ithink for me, April type stuff
(34:12):
was coming up. So like, so I'mtrying to think like what's more
concise? American religion wouldbenefit from compassionate
accountability. Americanreligion deserves to celebrate
all that it brings and can alsoin the different facets and ways
(34:34):
it shows up, take time toreflect historically and now if
there are ways that it is a partof perpetuating harm, and sign
up our gratitude growing programor a roadmap to resilience and
or not, but just take time tolook at with eyes of compassion
and restorative justice. Sothere's probably some reason
(34:57):
somewhere back there, even if itwas from a mo We'll see
oppressive place where someonefelt unsafe. And we can look
back at that, and perhaps cringea little bit, but also have
compassionate hearts and energytoward that. And so to me,
American religion can benefitfrom compassionate
accountability. And having theopportunity to finish that
(35:19):
thought that I just started to,to celebrate what is great, and
to also look deeply at placeswhere we could align more with
Beloved Community and joyousjustice and collective
liberation. Let's see, Americanreligion is ours to claim.
(35:47):
So for those of us who have beentraumatized by it, in the ways
in places that makes sense,there's so many different
opportunities around the countryonline, for people to find
places where we can heal, and ifwe want, and also, we might not,
there are a number of people whoare secular. And so I would add
(36:08):
in also, like, American religionis optional. Like some people
like, I think, you know, from aJewish perspective, or some
progressive Jews, like, youknow, they're I think it's Rabbi
Larry Hoffman, a prominentreformed Rabbi once said, from
his perspective, that Judaismdoesn't exist just to exist, it
(36:29):
exists because it's a service tothe world, it's of service to
Jews, and it's of service to theworld and the point at which it
just exists, or just continuityitself. It's not worth
continuing. And so I don't knowif that's true, other people's
religions or spiritualpractices, but you know, I think
(36:49):
I have heard Christianministers, Reverend Dr. Brad
Braxton, I heard him talk about,if the church becomes just a
social club, then it has lostits lost its way. And it is, in
fact, exists to serve, soserve and to provide spiritual
nourishment. So I liked what Ijust said, but I forgot what it
(37:11):
was already. But American right,what did I say I'm gonna go
American religions claim is oursto claim, yeah, or optional,
right? Because there's also asmany benefits as it has, there
are also folks who are secularand coming from a place of love.
You know, I don't I don't thinkthat an ethical. I mean, I have
a hard time envisioning asociety that doesn't acknowledge
(37:36):
spirit in any way. But I, youknow, I can envision multiple
countries. And I think there aresome who operate beautifully and
well and can care for theirpeople very well without
religion. So to me, from myperspective, American religion
is optional. And even a numberof the studies show this and
(37:57):
various communities include,including certainly the Jewish
community, and others arepanicked about this. And that,
to me is not the greatestconcern. I think, justice and
spiritual nourishment and sharedbelonging and care and
collective care are veryimportant and the ways in which
we can leverage and relate toour religions so that they are
(38:19):
in service of that. And it allis a little bit like chicken and
egg because, you know, theseideas that I'm sharing these
values, at least for me, aredeeply rooted in my spiritual
upbringing and, honestly,interfaith exposure across
different traditions. So I thinkit has I think American religion
has some cleaning up to do and alot to celebrate. And it's ours
(38:43):
to claim and make the most offor our own spiritual and
communal fulfillment and tocontinue to work for if I want
to use some traditionalpatriotic language, a more
perfect and just a scrapperfect, F perfect. A more just
(39:06):
and loving, union and countrythat incorporates land back and
peace and courage and action andYeah, anything else you want to
add Tracy?
Feel like it's like a wholenother episode. So
all right. Much love friends,wishing you a great week. And we
(39:32):
look forward to being in touchand as always, always, feel free
to reach out if you'd like tofollow up with additional ideas
either on our website contactform or if you want to tag one
of us on social media and shareyour thoughts we also welcome
that too. Alright, until nexttime, Much Love.
Hey, before you go, I wanted totalk to you about something.
(39:52):
Odds are you have beenconditioned to treat certain
behaviors as simply the cost ofsuccess. Things like urgency for
fear people pleasing andignoring your own feelings and
needs. These defaults maintain aharmful status quo and
ultimately, they undermine yourcapacity to reach your desired
(40:12):
destination. Hashtag burnoutanyone. We can show you
alternatives. Join us at a fiveday workshop roadmap to
resilience. It's just one hour aday at noon Eastern starting
January 23. For five days. Ifyou can't make one session,
don't sweat it. We record themall. Find the link to register
in the show notes. We'll see youthere. Thanks for tuning in. To
(40:37):
learn more about joyous justiceLLC, our team and how you can
get involved with our community.
Check out the info in our shownotes, or find us at joyous
justice.comIf you enjoy this episode, show
us some love. Subscribe whereveryou're listening. Tell your
people share what you'relearning and how your leadership
is evolving. Stay humble, butnot too humble. And keep going
(40:59):
because the future is ours to cocreate
Inspired by April's appearanceon a panel entitled religion is
(00:04):
dot, dot dot divisive. And inthe shadow of Martin Luther King
Jr. Day, we dig into the waysreligion can be used to defend
or to dismantle systemicoppression.
(00:25):
You're listening to the JoyousJustice podcast,
a weekly show hosted by AprilBaskin with Tracie Guy Decker.
in a complex world in whichsystemic oppression conditions
us to deny others and our ownhumanity. let's dedicate
ourselves to the pursuit andembodiment of wholeness, love
and thriving in the world. Andin our own lives. It's time to
(00:47):
heal and flourish our way to amore joyous and just future.
Tracie, Hey, friend, Hey,friends, in April. So
we're recording this on aSunday. And on the Friday before
(01:09):
this Sunday, I had the honour ofbeing asked to speak at a
seminar at Columbia that Ihonestly didn't fully understand
what it was about, like Ithought I was speaking to like,
a seminar of undergrad orgraduate students. But it turns
out it's like, intellectualsfrom multiple universities who
(01:29):
are coming together fist projectand doing like a discussion
series like an intellectualdiscussion series and inviting
scholars and subject matterexperts on a range of issues to
respond to the prompt religionand the subtext is American
religion is dot, dot dot. Andthey've gone through political
(01:51):
that I honestly don't rememberthe other ones they mentioned
the other day, but um,hypothetically, like healing or
something. And the one that Iwas invited, along with four
other co panelists to speak towas American religion is
divisive. And that conversationwasn't exactly private, per se,
(02:11):
but it was a closed doorconversation, but I thought I
would share some of the ideasthat I had and some of the
interesting bits and things thatI took away from that exchange
of ideas from some leading edgethinkers on on these subjects.
And I thought that ourrelationship and partnership in
(02:36):
this podcast would be a greatplace for us to do what April
and Tracy do with conversationsand put our unique intellectual
spiritually. And social justiceLee inspired sank on this prompt
American religion is ellipses.
To visit of and and I will sayto this is like my first thought
(02:58):
when I hear that when I readthat, and also to also one of
the professors in the space alsoinvited a reframe of that
prompt, that I think has someinteresting implications, which
is, I think it was somethingalong the lines of religion as
it's developed within the UnitedStates, is divisive, right. And
so when I either when I firsthear this, my thought is, this
(03:21):
is a common thought that a lotof people say and think that I
kind of front, I would, I wouldbegin with, I don't agree with
in the sense that it's so veryeither or, and I have a both end
approach. So I ultimately doagree with it. But it's so like,
such a polarizing and simplisticviewpoint, and also was rooted
(03:46):
in and I don't mean to insultmany different people, and a
number of whom, who say thiseither had been witnessed to and
or have personally been harmedby encounters with religion in
America, so that and so that'snot something to dismiss. But my
first thought is, this is what alot of people say. And as a
(04:09):
coach, as someone who thinkscritically about a number of
issues in the world, I'm someonewho's much more of a fan of
nuance, and this is very much aboth and situation for me. And
my first thought is, I don'tknow if it's so much that
religion is divisive, so much assystemic oppression, and
(04:31):
histories of harm are divisiveand religion has been both
complicit in and also hasactively serve to fight has
played all different kinds ofroles in the context of systemic
oppression. And and in religionat times throughout history and
(04:52):
in the United States has, hascertainly been used as a vehicle
for both harm and healing. Andto me, if religion didn't exist,
whatever might be in its form,or that there would be some
other vehicle that either wouldbe created or would have that
was in existence that would havebeen leveraged to be in service
(05:12):
of systems of oppression, whichdoesn't mean that in some cases
with certain religions, incertain ways that some of the
origins of systemic oppressionmight have some of their roots,
say in elements of Christianhegemony. And the ways during
like, when, you know, whenpeople were helped me, I'm not
I'm not as into that facet ofhistory, but like in the Middle
(05:35):
Ages and stuff, where theylearned in sociology, that the
crucible, thank you, rightcrusades, but even before that,
around that time, like whenpeople were peasants and things,
like the ways that the church,the in, in collaboration in, you
know, in terms of beingcomplicit with state oppression,
yeah, or being in service of it,you know, started to shift some
(05:58):
of the fields of theology tobetter serve people working
themselves to the bone until theday they die, in the hopes that
they would then go to heaven.
So, so that's a little bit of myinterest. So I was I was a bit
more polished in certain wayswhen I was speaking, because I
have eight minutes to share mybits. And so a shared a little
(06:20):
bit of what I've shared. Now,I'm a little bit more relational
and freeform with you around it,Tracy and with our friends
listening in. But um, that's alittle bit of my intro for it.
And a number of interestingideas were shared people who are
really studying this indifferent ways. A really cool
leader bringing in some joyousjustice align thoughts. I'm not
(06:42):
sure if I'm pronouncing his namecorrectly, hopefully I will,
because I feel like we mighteventually be like professional
friends or colleagues in someway. He's a cool guy. David, you
thought his last name might behuman? Yeah, human Kim. He is a
director of I don't remember theprecise name, but essentially
the racial justice center atStanford, what we will include
(07:04):
information about all of this inthe show notes. And, and he
shared a piece in advance aboutthat was published in a journal
about love and the role of lovein the public square in the
context of these conversations,and also to I loved his I was
like, Oh, I didn't I think ofthat when he was speaking. He
said, and so there's thisquestion. And then there's also
the, there's the questions thatfollow it to me around what, in
(07:28):
light of the ways that religion,American religion is and is not
divisive? What are theopportunities for solidarity
that we have? What do we want toaspire to? And I was like, Oh,
nothing to say that. That's alsolike, it's nice to because he's
not that much better. You know,he's, he's, I believe he's older
(07:48):
than me. And, like, okay, okay,so I have more time to integrate
all these different ways of myknowing. But I was like, wait,
wait to bring in the joyousjustice element here, David,
that that was interesting. Sobut I want us to have our own
conversation rather than now.
So. So that's my intro, Tracy, Ipass it over to you to respond
to me to share your own thoughtsabout it. Bring in any juicy
(08:11):
anecdotes or metaphors, whateveris arising for you. Yeah,
you're welcome. I have similarthoughts to you in terms of the
like, wow, that's very eitheror, like, I feel like, I'm
seeing that a lot. I mean, justpersonally, in my social media
feed, I saw somebody recentlywho was like, this thing has
this bad effect, therefore, weshould get rid of it.
(08:34):
It's like my stone metaphorthing.
Like, like, yeah, yeah. It'slike, so your stone metaphor,
specifically, is that peoplesay, you know, this stone has
been used as an object forpeople. So we need to get stone.
And not recognizing that stonescan also be used to build and to
heal muscles and heal. Yeah. SoI think there's that there's
(08:54):
also like, even something thatlike, like an act like it can be
done poorly. Right? Yield,right, like, bad doctors. That
doesn't mean we should throwaway medicine, right?
As a field, and that's what thispoint is, on social media,
(09:15):
right? Andin medicine, right and about
about medicine. It's sofascinating, because there's so
many ways in mainstream medicinethat has deeply ingrained that
has deeply embedded within it.
systemic oppression and bias anddifferent things. But like, that
would be really ill advised.
Just like, like Yes, wait needsmassive change. And also, it
(09:36):
has, it also saves lives everysingle day, even as it fails. A
number of people I still thinkoverall and more often than not,
is saving lives. Like that's animportant variable. Yeah, even
if we levy a hefty critique at agiven field or
(09:57):
institution. Yeah. Sospecifically about religion
being divisive, and one of thethings that, you know, that also
comes up for me trying to saywhat order to do this in is that
it's been my experiencespersonally with individuals. So
I'm just going to name that, butit's been my experience, that
(10:18):
when when folks are like, fullygrounded and centered and
comfortable in their own face,that others faiths are not a
threat. Right like that, theycan learn about it and see what
resonates and see where it'sdifferent. And that's all okay.
And then folks who are maybe alittle less, they don't even
(10:41):
necessarily recognize that thereis Yeah. But for whatever
reason, their faith feel is ismore vulnerable, they feel like
then all of a sudden, anotherfaith becomes a threat and must
be amped down or controlled, ordenied or proved to be
(11:04):
racial traumathat like that I've, that I've
noticed personally as, as aformer scholar of religion, so
I've spent a lot of time with alot of religious folks from
different from differenttraditions. So this is something
that like comes up when we leavewhen I hear that phrase that
religion is, is divisive. Youknow, I think of my religion as
(11:26):
like, I don't know, like, I'mborrowing a little from George
Carlin had a bit, but that Idon't want to get into but if
you know it, like, you'll knowthat that's where I get, it was
kind of like a pair ofcomfortable shoes, that like,
really feel good to me and makeit easier for me to walk longer
distances. I would never expectmy shoes to fit, you know, I'm
(11:49):
happy to let you try toyour shoes are lovely Tracy, I
have seen them.
But that's sort of like, and Iwould never deny you your own
shoes that are made to fit yourwarmth. And so that's, that's
another thing that sort of comesup to me that I think helps to
(12:12):
further for me, kind of explainwhat I noticed before, like, if
other people's shoes aren'tquite comfortable, while they're
walking or like some Somethingabout it just isn't quite quite
working, then, you know, itbecomes more important that
(12:33):
every match. So that those aresome of the things that were
coming up for me immediately,because it's it's not actually
religion. It's not religionthat's divisive. It's the
requirement, or the expectation,or the demand or the insert verb
(12:58):
here that we all agree aboutreligion.
Well, that's one. Right? Well,so that's one facet of and then
so here's the interesting thingis that I don't have the full
background on the purpose of theseminar. So there's like part of
me that wants to bring incertain things that were said.
But I think, perhaps that Ithink that they My sense is
(13:18):
maybe they're like, potentiallypreparing a white paper or a
series of things around it. So Isay, I'm going to be like,
lightly what you said spawned acouple of different thoughts
that I'm really excited to sharenow, Tracy, that are like,
that's fresh thinking. So I'm,so one of the pieces that like,
you know, Eboo Patel is in theroom who runs interfaith
America, that's that does reallyimportant work. And he shared
(13:42):
his TED Talk that speaks tothat's worth checking out his
TEDx talk that speaks to all ofthe different positive things
that religion has brought toAmerican life, like he notes
that a large majority ofhospitals are faith based. And
they serve a wide clientele,that a number of universities
(14:04):
that his personal narrative thathis family has deeply benefited
from the resources offered tohis father say I think it's
funny we went to Notre DOM as asa South Asian Muslim man that
they you know, that there's analso that a large, like a large
percentage of it 60%, or somelarge percentage of social
(14:27):
services in this country and invarious parts of the countries
are through differentinstitutions. So that was seven,
I feel like there were that wasbrought into that was a part of
the some of the pre readingsthat were sent. And that's
something that's out in theether. So I feel comfortable
saying that. But one thing thatI wanted to bring up that was
attention I felt in theconversation that evolved to is
that I think you're naming onefacet of the ways that religion
(14:51):
can was a reason why religioncan be divisive, and I would add
some other pieces that I thinkyou're aware of that also. Both
didn't did it explicit. We cometo mind, but as I heard people
talking about other things in away that I felt like was
missing, Steven and lightacknowledgement, just like just
a subtle, you know, like prefaceor, or caveat that a number of
(15:16):
different institutions orindividuals or people who had
certain negative intentions canuse religion at times of the
Christian church or in a butalso other religious vehicles to
for incitement for theincitement of violence, right,
or for the restricting ofpeople's civil civil liberties
(15:40):
or different things along thatnature. And there was an
interesting or historically toyour point earlier, like for
justification forjustification, right, you know,
that like that a number ofpeople, I think, would say, in
really compelling ways that thatwasn't the church, but that, you
know, the kk k USD crosses,right, like the brand crosses,
it was, it was religiousiconography.
(16:04):
Certainly agents of the church,during slavery, used Christian
doctrine like,which is like an example of what
I alluded to earlier. But Ithink when you get into the
specificity of it of the waythat it starts to get really
visceral and very upsetting veryquickly, right, that it's not
when when I say that, thatreligion can be complicit in
(16:25):
systems of oppression that canseem somewhat distance, as
opposed to people were incitedby their churches or houses of
worship, to target, maim, andmurder, and to incite racial
terror, right. And so that'sright. And so. So somebody said
something that was reallyinteresting that I think,
(16:48):
perhaps I should honor thecontainer of the confidentiality
of the container, but I want tosay something off of it. So one
thing to think about islike, and
there's obviously a lot ofdiversity there, diversity, but
are there certain ways thatreligion takes form and across
(17:11):
different experiences, the waythat it works, and it functions
often not always, but in anumber of within a number of
different communities,certainly, within Islam, Judaism
and Christianity, it talks, itgoes into the realm of like,
spirit and energy in differentways. And it's different
(17:33):
orientations with that, and inin context in the United States.
Right now I'm reading, I'mreally loving it, I think it's
the book that I was looking for,for the past few years, the myth
of normal by Dr. Gabor Ma Tei.
That is like combining all thethings I've been working to
combine about like feelings, andspirit and body and emotions and
(17:55):
ailments and mental healthstuff, and combining all these
different things. And I'm in thesection where he's talking about
emotions and spirit of energyand different things of that
nature. And he says, but also,we just know this in general in
our culture that. And this tiesa little bit into what you spoke
about. In the previous episode,it's weird, like, it's basically
(18:19):
in our culture, there is anaversion to having meaningful
awareness around emotion andspirit, and energy and these
different things that are, well,for some people in their in
their ethos that doesn't existat all, from, from my
perspective, they very much doexist. So there's any number of
(18:40):
ways you can orient them, andit's actually quite powerful.
And it fills a particular needin the human experience. And
often, religion is one of theprimary vehicles that people get
touched and that people getnourishment and or potentially
poison around around thosesubjects in a way that's not so
(19:05):
regulated in other ways. There'sa bit of that in terms of mental
health and even that is stillsomewhat constrained around
emotions and feelings but interms of spirit or message like
energy, different things of thisnature, our our orientation, or
lack there of with a higherpower. But I just see how that
(19:26):
could add to the perspectiveabout something that we
otherwise don't know much about.
There's not another there's notreally any there's starting to
be now but over the over UShistory. Religion has largely
dominated that space indifferent ways. And there hasn't
(19:47):
been something external thatcould also outside of I mean,
there were some things that theywere attempted to be annihilated
through like indigenous culturesand also other cultures in the
world. And so and these arethings that really, honestly
compel a lot of people andheavily influenced how they live
(20:07):
and how they vote, what theyview about these things. And
people often cling to theirbeliefs about this real these
these experiences in differentways really intensely. And, and
there's just a way where thatdynamics we contributes to at
times people perceiving thatreligion is divisive, because
(20:27):
that's an area that's kind ofsimilar to but different in
terms of what I talk about,about collective trauma and how
people conflate interpersonalchallenges with often with what
I think is actually the burdenthat we all collectively carry
about the countries anddifferent systems and
structures, inability to supportand be accountable around those
(20:52):
histories of harm. And similarlywith this, there aren't many, at
least in American society, Ithink in other cultures, like in
Chinese culture, and otherethnic and indigenous cultures,
there are structures and formsof medicine and whole fields of
thinking and thought that helpthat is rooted and isn't
(21:12):
necessarily based on religion,but it is. But it's more similar
to what we've gotten in anAmerican society about how to
think about the weather, and howto think about math. And
similarly, they say like, theseare the meridians on your body.
And if you're feeling this, youcan likely expect this but in
America, a lot of that thinkingfor various reasons, has been
relegated, or anything remotelylike that has been relegated to
(21:37):
religious space. And I thinkthat, like my analysis is that
I'm happy for you to put yourbring your mind your perspective
on it, Tracy, is that energy isa huge part of our human
experience, whether it'semotions, or interpersonal
energy, or the energy that wefeel of collective experience,
whether it's around trauma orcollective joy, that this is a
(22:00):
part of the human experience.
And people have different needsaround this, and they need a
place for that to be met. And Ithink it at times has given
religious institutionsdisproportionate power, because
it was one of the only placeswhere people could go, to try in
some way to get those needs met.
(22:24):
And when you have what I alreadysaid, but we already just what
we already said about many, anumber of different religious
institutions being complicit orproactively a part of systems of
oppression. Also, then meldingdirectly and indirectly with
within the realm of spirit andenergy in our souls and our
emotions and our hearts and thethings that actually move us
(22:46):
right, like a number of my bestteachers and social change work
consistently say that most ofthese things, you can learn
things, but it needs to happenat the heart level through
stories through peopleconnecting with their own
stories to hearing otherpeople's stories and that area
at times in certain ways. And Ithink less so but historically
within the United States has,has been situated within
(23:10):
religious spaces. That that alljives for me. I think one of the
one of the ways that I wouldframe it I've written about
before, actually is because thatreligion has been one of the few
places where folks are able tosort of experience spiritual or
(23:31):
energetic, it's sociallyacceptable to experience those
things. And because religion hasbeen weaponized as a tool of the
oppressor, in some cases,especially, especially within
the 20th and 21st centuries,right, like some of the loudest,
oppressive voices say that theyare speaking with a Christian
(23:54):
lens. And so I know I have hadalmost like a stigma around
talking about it, becausebecause of the evil we're
thinking of that I you know,that I have inherited, and I'm
working to undo, like those whoweaponize God language are often
(24:14):
loud in the public square. And Idon't want to be associated with
them by using God language,right? And so I just like using
God language. Yeah. Similarly,which the effect of that right
is actually to abandon God tothose who would weaponize God?
(24:36):
At least in the public square.
And, and I think you can replacethat word, God with spirit and
our higher power, or sort ofmore than us more than the sum
of our parts, whatever wordworks for you. And I think for
me, that's a that's a part ofwhat has happened. And so in
(24:58):
terms of the difference of Andwhat you're describing, and the
ways in which it has beenweaponized for oppression and
and then and then stigmatizedright by different parts of
society so that especiallyespecially white Jews, right
(25:19):
there's there's very much likewhite reformed Jews talk about
God when we are in synagogue,maybe.
Right? Maybe read this a bitMaybe there's even jokes about
the center within like withinlike the within what's it
called? What's the JCS at theJewish Theological Seminary,
(25:39):
there's jokes about like, butleave God out, you know, you
within the concert like this isa very Ashkenazi Jewish
experience, among which manyactually
is a separation from ourChristian neighbors who talk
about God oppressorsat time. Yeah, who also, you
know, where I leveraged that orcontext of pilgrims or the
(26:02):
Holocaust or different momentsof acute. That's when I insert I
want to, I want to interjectwhen, when you have a moment,
Yeah, I'm ready. So like, I wasable to further think about
this, because I'm thinking aboutthis in this kind of way for the
first time. So like what I wastalking about before, one way I
would describe it is like, Idon't have an exact destination
(26:22):
here is the unknown. It's likeenergies that kind of go into
the realm of the unknown. Andthere's lots of our lives that
unknown in. And actually it canbe known again, as I mentioned
before, in other cultures, butI'm just putting the interesting
pieces together about how thesethings ended up working, in some
ways in healing, either inprofoundly healing ways or in
(26:43):
toxic ways when we rememberwhich some people like our
students would know this. Orpeople are our clients and
students who've been in ourcoaching and learning programs.
But, you know, joined a groupProfessor Georgia group talks a
lot about the different waysthat whiteness manifests, and
then that it manifested in thecontext of slavery, to mitigate
(27:05):
cognitive dissonance, andmassive emotional numbing was
one of them.
And sothat set up the and so that
became not only through that,but also through other means,
became a way of and similarlywith sexism. So you have like to
have these massive, longstanding sexism, even even
(27:28):
longer forms of deeplyentrenched systemic oppression.
And this is true of a lot ofsystemic oppression. But
especially in these cases, thatheavily in order for the
dehumanization, of differentpopulations to occur, and for
other people to be functional,there needed to be massive
(27:49):
numbing, and distancing fromemotion, to be the norm. And
yet, at the same time, duringthese formative years, in our
country, when there are manyimmigrant populations and
encounters of difference, andfighting for land, mostly in the
context of land theft, butdifferent people fighting for
(28:11):
lands, land and, and sovereigntyfrom different angles, or for
sovereignty or power over, andthere are things like fear that
are arising, and when there'snot a place. So I just, I
already kind of said this, butI'm also not thinking about like
bringing in other pieces ofthings that I know. And thinking
about, then who is left to dealwith fear, when society in
(28:34):
general is not is is activelyengaging in a range of emotional
numbing techniques to todecrease
the cognitive dissonancefrom being collectively directly
and indirectly, deeply engagedand invested in horrific
dehumanization in the context ofslavery in the context of the
(28:58):
attempted genocide of indigenouspeoples and in the context of
women in public space and inprivate space, being the targets
of her rific. dehumanization andviolence and oppression and at
times death, the jokes that arein our common parlance and our
language that many of us don'tknow, have a history of about
(29:18):
violence or against women. Andgender nonconforming folks, and
trans folks. Yeah, I'm justcontinuing to chew on this with
you, you know, that, that I'mnot fully sure, like I haven't
thought hasn't fully formed. Butthere's like an interesting
interplay here, where there'sthis void, and that doesn't mean
(29:39):
that even with all this tampingdown, people still have fears
and different feelings that theyneed an outlet to process in
some way if they're going to beable to be somewhat functional
human beings, even within this.
And since institutions, we'rereally locking it down in
different ways and you Evenwithin the mental health in
(30:02):
this, like, even within themental health system, there's
deep history around this for along time, right around calling
women hysterical around anysense of feeling about the
horrific trauma that is a partof life as a woman for most of
human history and pathologizingthat rather than being like, it
(30:26):
makes sense that she would wantto cry like it makes sense today
when things are much better thatmany women would want to cry for
days on end in light of thingsthey are navigating
and yet just so juicy soso maybe we can conclude by like
(30:49):
either taking methadoneretrofits mister a doctor, or
professor, but David Kim'sapproach, David Cuban Kim, and
pardon me, new friend, David Hi,hear this, I'm mispronouncing
your name or if anybody knowsyou can message us and
phonetically spell it for us ifyou've had the pleasure of
(31:11):
working with and getting to knowhim. Be on a quick introduction
on a seminar. What would we wantto put at the end of that
ellipses of like Americanreligion is? How would we want
to conclude it? Do you want togo first? Or would you like me
to go first, Tracy, I feel likeI want you to go first. But
(31:32):
also, if you don't want to,I you saying that I would like
to be able to say this in thefuture, or this is what I'd like
to say about it now.
Now, like, if we would want tolike just not not like as a
final thing, but just like, ifwe both agree that like
divisive, is overly simplistic,and also doesn't do anything to
(31:56):
acknowledge concepts like shoutout to Dr. King. You know, the
Reverend Dr. Martin Luther KingJr. and his conception of and
align movements, continuedchampioning of the concept of
Beloved Community, which alignsvery deeply with themes around
(32:18):
that we talked about it withinjoyous justice for how do we
eradicate oppression withouteradicating or targeting people,
but instead targeting systemsand patterns and behaviors, and
honoring the divinity within allof us and moving toward what we
call collective liberation and,and what different people within
the Christian community and fromDr. King's lineage call Beloved
(32:40):
Community, which is deeplyaligned with living in a world
where there is no poverty wherethere is justice, where people
have their needs met, wherethere is no war, where there is
no military, minimal or nomilitary where we are able to
coexist and live well and havemore peaceful unarmed approaches
to navigating complex complexstill going to happen, but in a
(33:03):
way, that's more humanized. Soanyway, so I forgot how I got on
that just now. But he wanted usto answer that. Yeah. But yeah,
we're going back to thatquestion. Yeah. So. So just to
say that, like, obviously,there's also really so like,
American religion is or likereligion is.
(33:25):
I feel like there's a couple ofdifferent ways that I could go
like, the first thing that cameto mind is complicated. That was
the very first thing that cameto mind. And then the second
thing, which is maybe acontroversial statement, Ooh,
let's hear it. American religionis providing services that
should be provided by the state.
The second one, that was mythought when I was listening to
(33:48):
Mr. Patel's talk was like, okay,that's true. And that's good,
but also the state should be,yeah, offering those
foundational services andoffering foundational inclusion.
Well, I love that. And I lovethat. Thank you. Those are two
great ones. I mean, I thinkthere's like endless ones we
could like do a for loop. So Ithink for me, April type stuff
(34:12):
was coming up. So like, so I'mtrying to think like what's more
concise? American religion wouldbenefit from compassionate
accountability. Americanreligion deserves to celebrate
all that it brings and can alsoin the different facets and ways
(34:34):
it shows up, take time toreflect historically and now if
there are ways that it is a partof perpetuating harm, and sign
up our gratitude growing programor a roadmap to resilience and
or not, but just take time tolook at with eyes of compassion
and restorative justice. Sothere's probably some reason
(34:57):
somewhere back there, even if itwas from a mo We'll see
oppressive place where someonefelt unsafe. And we can look
back at that, and perhaps cringea little bit, but also have
compassionate hearts and energytoward that. And so to me,
American religion can benefitfrom compassionate
accountability. And having theopportunity to finish that
(35:19):
thought that I just started to,to celebrate what is great, and
to also look deeply at placeswhere we could align more with
Beloved Community and joyousjustice and collective
liberation. Let's see, Americanreligion is ours to claim.
(35:47):
So for those of us who have beentraumatized by it, in the ways
in places that makes sense,there's so many different
opportunities around the countryonline, for people to find
places where we can heal, and ifwe want, and also, we might not,
there are a number of people whoare secular. And so I would add
(36:08):
in also, like, American religionis optional. Like some people
like, I think, you know, from aJewish perspective, or some
progressive Jews, like, youknow, they're I think it's Rabbi
Larry Hoffman, a prominentreformed Rabbi once said, from
his perspective, that Judaismdoesn't exist just to exist, it
(36:29):
exists because it's a service tothe world, it's of service to
Jews, and it's of service to theworld and the point at which it
just exists, or just continuityitself. It's not worth
continuing. And so I don't knowif that's true, other people's
religions or spiritualpractices, but you know, I think
(36:49):
I have heard Christianministers, Reverend Dr. Brad
Braxton, I heard him talk about,if the church becomes just a
social club, then it has lostits lost its way. And it is, in
fact, exists to serve, soserve and to provide spiritual
nourishment. So I liked what Ijust said, but I forgot what it
(37:11):
was already. But American right,what did I say I'm gonna go
American religions claim is oursto claim, yeah, or optional,
right? Because there's also asmany benefits as it has, there
are also folks who are secularand coming from a place of love.
You know, I don't I don't thinkthat an ethical. I mean, I have
a hard time envisioning asociety that doesn't acknowledge
(37:36):
spirit in any way. But I, youknow, I can envision multiple
countries. And I think there aresome who operate beautifully and
well and can care for theirpeople very well without
religion. So to me, from myperspective, American religion
is optional. And even a numberof the studies show this and
(37:57):
various communities include,including certainly the Jewish
community, and others arepanicked about this. And that,
to me is not the greatestconcern. I think, justice and
spiritual nourishment and sharedbelonging and care and
collective care are veryimportant and the ways in which
we can leverage and relate toour religions so that they are
(38:19):
in service of that. And it allis a little bit like chicken and
egg because, you know, theseideas that I'm sharing these
values, at least for me, aredeeply rooted in my spiritual
upbringing and, honestly,interfaith exposure across
different traditions. So I thinkit has I think American religion
has some cleaning up to do and alot to celebrate. And it's ours
(38:43):
to claim and make the most offor our own spiritual and
communal fulfillment and tocontinue to work for if I want
to use some traditionalpatriotic language, a more
perfect and just a scrapperfect, F perfect. A more just
(39:06):
and loving, union and countrythat incorporates land back and
peace and courage and action andYeah, anything else you want to
add Tracy?
Feel like it's like a wholenother episode. So
all right. Much love friends,wishing you a great week. And we
(39:32):
look forward to being in touchand as always, always, feel free
to reach out if you'd like tofollow up with additional ideas
either on our website contactform or if you want to tag one
of us on social media and shareyour thoughts we also welcome
that too. Alright, until nexttime, Much Love.
Hey, before you go, I wanted totalk to you about something.
(39:52):
Odds are you have beenconditioned to treat certain
behaviors as simply the cost ofsuccess. Things like urgency for
fear people pleasing andignoring your own feelings and
needs. These defaults maintain aharmful status quo and
ultimately, they undermine yourcapacity to reach your desired
(40:12):
destination. Hashtag burnoutanyone. We can show you
alternatives. Join us at a fiveday workshop roadmap to
resilience. It's just one hour aday at noon Eastern starting
January 23. For five days. Ifyou can't make one session,
don't sweat it. We record themall. Find the link to register
in the show notes. We'll see youthere. Thanks for tuning in. To
(40:37):
learn more about joyous justiceLLC, our team and how you can
get involved with our community.
Check out the info in our shownotes, or find us at joyous
justice.comIf you enjoy this episode, show
us some love. Subscribe whereveryou're listening. Tell your
people share what you'relearning and how your leadership
is evolving. Stay humble, butnot too humble. And keep going
(40:59):
because the future is ours to cocreate
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