April 6, 2023 • 35 mins
In this reprise of episode 30, April and Tracie reveal the liberatory wisdom in eight practices from Passover observance.
Find April and Tracie's full bios and submit topic suggestions for the show at www.JewsTalkRacialJustice.com
Learn more about Joyous Justice where April is the founding and fabulous (!) director and Tracie is a senior partner: https://joyousjustice.com/
Resources mentioned:
Learn more about the characteristics of White Supremacy Culture: https://www.dismantlingracism.org/uploads/4/3/5/7/43579015/okun_-_white_sup_culture.pdf
Hear the song "All my relations" by Ulali: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swgz8nocENw%20 and read the lyrics: https://www.flashlyrics.com/lyrics/ulali/all-my-relations-27
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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April Baskin (00:00):
In honor of Passover this year we are
resharing episode 30 of Jewstalk racial justice. Now, the
Joyous Justice podcast. Enjoythis episode in which Tracie and
I discuss eight different waysof honoring and moving toward
collective liberation in honorof the sacred, meaningful and
(00:22):
rich Jewish holiday of Passover.
You're listening to the joyousjustice podcast, a weekly show
hosted by April Baskin withTracie Guy-Decker. in a complex
(00:43):
world in which systemicoppression conditions us to deny
others and our own humanity.
let's dedicate ourselves to thepursuit and embodiment of
wholeness, love and thriving inthe world and in our own lives.
It's time to heal and flourishour way to a more joyously just
future.
Tracie Guy-Decker (01:08):
So April in our last episode, which
published right before Seder,first Seder, we talked about the
fact that we need to get reallyclear and honest about the fact
that for many black folks andother people of color in
America, the sea never parted.
And they remain in meets regimein Egypt's. Also another
(01:31):
translation of meats, rhyme isthe narrow place. And so today,
this episode is dropping in themiddle of the holiday, we were
just talking about the fact thatthere are some practices of
Passover that can be maybeinstructive on how we move
(01:51):
toward liberation. So I can'twait to hear this. This juicy
list that you have, that you'veput together.
April Baskin (02:03):
Yeah. That you also help to contribute to thank
you. So I think since there areeight different components of
tomorrow, what I call it, Tracy,yeah, you
Tracie Guy-Decker (02:17):
said eight Passover practices that can move
us toward collective liberation.
Yeah.
April Baskin (02:25):
Hashtag racial justice. Okay. So. Okay, so
where do I start digit digitdigit?
Tracie Guy-Decker (02:35):
Okay, can I make a suggestion? I would love
for you to start with the thecleaning.
Unknown (02:42):
Yeah, I was leaning toward that, too. So similar to
how we start the holiday itselfin preparation for the holiday,
is to clean our housesthoroughly, and specifically to
zero in on something that wewant to be removing this case
for the holiday. It's a humates,or items that are leavened,
(03:03):
contain leaven leavening and orother foods depending upon your
Jewish custom, that are notpermitted on Passover, during
Passover, and you need toactually remove them from your
house. A times people throw itout. Other times people like my
(03:23):
mother, who was like this foodis valuable. So we're moving it
into our distance garage orputting it in our storage
facility because we need thisfood when the holidays over.
Tracie Guy-Decker (03:34):
There's a custom to sell it to someone and
then maybe buy it backafterwards. There you have to
get it out of your possession.
April Baskin (03:42):
Get it out of your possession, right. And so this
is our first practice that wewant to sort of modify a bit and
say in general, this is also agood practice as it relates to
racial justice is to pick onething, one manifestation of
internalized oppression forpeople of color and for
(04:03):
internalized oppressor material.
For people who are white or whoare category categorized by
white, much of the time anddaily life in society, to one
practice is to just pick Well,there are many different
attributes of oppression oroppressor material, but to pick
one at a time, and practiceawareness and noticing
(04:27):
throughout your Berent beingthroughout your thought patterns
and your memories and yourspirit. That thing and a
reference tool that might beuseful, that we haven't fully
unpacked yet. are differentattributes of white supremacy
culture, or as Sonia Rene Taylorrefers to it white supremacist
(04:48):
delusion. And some of thosethings include right to comfort,
feeling entitled to comfort andmost situations or urgency IE or
perfectionism, and is to taketime to start to notice and
engage in essentially, hush boneand nefesh. Right? Accounting
(05:11):
soul. Yeah. And accounting ofthe soul. Thank you, Tracie has
my back, as per usual. And yeah,so that's the first one, there's
more I could say. But I want to,I don't want to get too long
here because we have eight tocover. So that's the first one
is take time in within andliterally both. So part of the
(05:33):
metaphor is, you know, the housebeing your inner world, but also
your actual home, is also toperhaps do an inventory. And are
your racial justice valuesreflected in the products you
buy? On the art that is on yourwalls, on the books on your
bookshelf being buying fromartists and Company? Are
(05:54):
companies and thought leaders ofcolor? Are you buying from white
folks who are courageous alliesto people of color, whether or
not that relates to what they'redoing? But Are they someone who
has shown over the course oftheir lives that they are
committed to racial justice? Andeven more in terms of you want
to be edgier? And even morestringent? Is is? Are they
(06:17):
committed anti racists, right?
Are they committed to an ongoingpractice of perfection, but of
doing this and, and this is notto say necessarily, that you
need to go through your home andremove anything that wasn't
purchased from a bike company,but as to notice, it is to
notice that and in anappreciative positive sense,
(06:38):
begin to think about where theremight be opportunities in your
home and the things that yourfamily does, to begin to
incorporate more antiracist intoyour ecosystem. So next up, we
have a shift in diet. I reallylove this one, right? So on
(06:59):
Passover, and for a lot ofpeople, it's difficult in
various ways, for variousreasons. And people also in in
our community, I think it's attimes helpful to be very
inclusive, and say that thereare a range of different kinds
of practices, not only aroundSephardic and Mizrahi and
Ashkenazi, but also just interms of level of observance.
(07:23):
And there are many people whofind Passover meaningful, and
they absorb it in all kinds ofways, right. But in general,
traditionally, there's a shiftin diet, and there's an emphasis
on replacing bread, leavenedbread with matzah. And also
depending upon your custom also,perhaps not eating other foods
that, depending upon minhag, orJewish custom, the Jewish
(07:47):
custom, you observe, are alsonot permitted on Passover. And
so here, what I'm excited aboutis less about literal food,
although that absolutely isincredibly important, but is
just thinking more broadly aboutwhat you're ingesting. What is
your diet? Are you feedingyourself, sources and thought
(08:11):
leadership that support a beliefsystem that is more powerfully
antiracist and liberatory? Areyou listening to leaders who not
only bring rigor, but alsocompassion and practical tools
that help you unpack this again,ideally, you have a diet that
(08:33):
has a robust suite of nutrients.
So you're listening as much asyou are able to and are ready
to, to thought leaders who areedgier and who are really out in
front and leading and who mightnot make things more practical
for you, but help anchor you ina Northstar of where you want to
be moving toward. And then youhave other people who may share
(08:55):
your identity or may who mayhave different identities to
you. But just like, in your lifein general, right? Like we're
taught that we should eatmulticolored vegetables, in an
effort to get a robust, diverseset of minerals and vitamins and
nutrients. You ideally want todo that with your racial justice
work. And ideally, and with yourliberation work more broadly,
(09:19):
and also, specifically racialjustice work is to be thoughtful
about your diet on social mediaabout the shows you watch.
Knowing that collectively Yes,one person only makes such a
difference. We could get intothat whole debate but but that
collectively, the shows we'rechoosing to watch people track
that data, right. So where arewe putting our presence and
(09:39):
therefore money or attend rightand also in terms of what we're
communicating to differentcorporations and leaders by the
ways in which we show up orchoose not to show up? So I
think with this diet piece, justas we eat matzah I think with a
diet an area of what we are ourconsumption, I think it's the
(10:01):
best way that we can be mindfulabout our consumption in two
ways both what are weproactively nourishing ourselves
with? And what are we choosingto put a boundary around?
Whether that is ongoing andpermanent or temporary,
temporary, or in seasons orphases? There's a lot of
different options here. But asto beginning, beginning to be
(10:22):
more mindful about this andrecognizing we have the power of
choice. Tracie, do you want toadd something,
Tracie Guy-Decker (10:28):
I just really want to underline what you just
said about the positive and thenegative piece of not negative,
but avoidant piece of the diet,because I think cash route in
general, which is the laws ofKosher the laws of keeping
kosher, requires you to be morerequires people to be more aware
of what it is that you'reconsuming. And then Passover
(10:49):
adds another layer to cashroute. And so I think that the
learning that the sort of metalearning from this, that April's
pointing to is, is reallyinteresting. And I love the idea
of like, even just for a time,go on a diet, you know,
immediate diet, where you'repaying attention, and thinking
about things that you both thatyou want to bring in and that
(11:09):
you want to not bring in. Ireally love that as a as a
practice.
April Baskin (11:14):
Yeah, and that, to me, I think that gives us a lot
more freedom. That doesn't haveto be only by adding it can also
be about making room. And it'snot only about exclusion, at
times, we don't times peoplethink you have to immediately
exclude and this is just ingeneral for life, that at times
are ways we can make meaningfulchange, without excluding and
starting to just introducehealthier things into our diet,
(11:36):
or a more inspiring, morealigned person into our social
or professional network. Andeventually, we're gonna have to
make some choices, but itdoesn't all have to happen at
once.
Tracie Guy-Decker (11:46):
Right. And I mean, to your point with the
Passover, using it as a Passoverpractice, like comments is not
bad. It's, you know, when it'snot Passover, hametz is fine,
it's good. And so there are badthings that you should take out
of your diet. But my point isjust like that intentional,
temporary, or even morepermanent noticing and Choice.
(12:07):
Choice opportunities is notnecessarily it doesn't have to
be a huge judgment call.
Unknown (12:14):
Right? But that's another way that we can move
toward what's the word rightlike is to move toward
collective liberation. That'sthat's sort of my phrase for
what some may call the Messianicera is when we've achieved
collective liberation. I justgot to all sentient beings and
the earth as well as a
Tracie Guy-Decker (12:38):
collective liberation is the Messianic age.
Who That's gorgeous.
Unknown (12:44):
Yay, thanks. Right. So So we're talking about from
Mitzrayim, to messianiccollective Messianic era,
collective liberation and andthat shows a little bit of my
reform movement bias as somepeople think, necessarily, that
it might literally be a personand I grew up in a context where
it was more thought of as a timeand a context, more so than any
(13:08):
one singular person. So next up,is
April Baskin (13:17):
the four children.
I want to name it. So I reallylove the four children as it
relates to some moving out ofMitzrayim and toward collective
liberation strategy. In terms ofrecognizing and I'm immediately
reminded of this song that Ishared in one of our courses,
our racial justice intensive,called whiteness of Ruta. One of
(13:41):
the things that we shared in oneof the sessions was a song from
Lolly called all my ancestors.
And I think of the four childrenas being aligned with the song
all my asters a little bit,although it's the four children
traditionally can be a littlebit more harsh in some ways. But
(14:02):
it's just like dia that as we'reworking, and doing our work,
that there are different peoplewith different narratives, and
that each one of them I've lovedthis is I'm like nerding out
right now. As someone whoteaches about racial equity and
effective multicultural strategyand interaction and one of the
(14:22):
core principles in that alignsbeautifully with this idea of
the four children that there arefour children with four
different tendencies and kindsof questions. And because there
are differences in them, theyalso require different
responses. For one of them. Ithink the response traditionally
(14:43):
is a little bit harsh, and thechild is told you know, you
know, when when a child asks thecustom Do you want to say it
Tracy?
Tracie Guy-Decker (14:51):
The thing about setting your teeth on edge
setting their teeth on edge thatthing? I don't
April Baskin (14:55):
remember. I was thinking more about just the in
my in my i think i I think wehad one of the classic versions
of God I when I was like, Ican't olders one, essentially,
yeah. Are Maxwell House or houseMaxwell House? Now I'm not sure
if it's separate, though. Butit's another one that I think
like many, many, many families.
Tracie Guy-Decker (15:13):
Maxwell House is the one I grew up with from
the 1920s. Yeah,
April Baskin (15:16):
yeah. And it talks about how the, the child who
says, Why do Why do you do this?
Distance, right. And the Texasrecord is supposed to say which
I would not say this to mychild? Well, you know, like, you
wouldn't have been let out ofEgypt, if that's how you felt
like this is a collective thing.
And since you're, so I'm not,I'm not, I'm not taking this
(15:38):
wholesale from the traditionaltags. My point is, is as we're
moving through this, torecognize that different people
are in different places withthis. And it's helpful to notice
that and so maybe you want towork with the kid who's down
with it, who's into it, maybeyou want over the person who is
like I'm here for it, and maybeanother person who is really
inquisitive, or doesn't knowwhat questions to ask, but
(16:00):
cares, or people enter this workin different ways. And it's
still possible to achieve, wedon't need 100% alignment of
humanity, in order for us toachieve monumental feats. We
just need a critical mass ofpeople who are asking aligned
(16:21):
questions, and additional peoplewho are asking slightly not
aligned questions that help toagitate us, and to strengthen
the questions we're asking andto strengthen our strategies. So
my point is four kinds ofpeople, four plus kinds of folks
in this work and to recognizethat people are at different
developmental levels. And Iprobably quoted her before, and
(16:44):
I'll quote her again, I lovewhen Sherry Brown has said that
Unknown (16:50):
you need to meet people where they are, it's like, you
might want somebody to besomewhere else. But they are
where they are. And the thingis, that doesn't mean that every
person, whatever your work youmight be doing is that you have
to work with it, you can choose,right? But but you want to make
a choice around being aware. AndFrank and you within your own
(17:11):
mind of this is where thisperson is. And you want to work
with them if this is where theyare, because it's not going to
help me to wish they werefarther along than they are
because they're not yet. And sothen we get to make that choice
in deciding if this is someonein a French partnership, and
moving work toward moving ourworld toward justice, if we want
(17:32):
to take that on or not.
Tracie Guy-Decker (17:35):
Just reminds me of the sort of the idea that
this work is too important tothrow people away. And so I
think that if folks are in ourpresence and asking questions
with genuine Kavanaugh, becauseyou know, there is a method of
trolling and you went intention.
Yeah, thank you. carbonize withintention, so that there is a
method of trolling that involvesasking questions. So that's not
(17:56):
what I'm talking about. But Ithink if someone is asking
questions, even if thosequestions are difficult or
wicked as our as our calls it,if they're if they come from
genuine desire to learn, thenthis work is too important to
throw people away.
April Baskin (18:13):
Yeah, and what I would add, though, at times to,
to kick it up a notch is, Ithink it's important to honor
all questions. And if someone'sat a certain developmental
level, they might not be readyto join a specific leadership
team or a specific project yet,and there's likely a different
place from their position fromwhat they know where they can be
(18:34):
met. And that's the coreprinciple without getting into
some of the specifics of
Unknown (18:39):
some favoritism or some meanness that could play out at
times in some of our traditionalJewish texts is more this idea
that there's a strategy, there'sa resource and a strategy for
every person, you just haven't,you might not have identified it
yet.
April Baskin (18:54):
And my hope is that there are enough people
doing this work that the groupsare people who may be hard for
me to work with for any numberof reasons, or they may find it
hard for me to work with.
Hopefully, I have some allies orsome other partners of color in
this work, who do have the rightmedicine or resources for those
folks, right and so as to noticeat times, and to hold out a
possibility, which can kind oftransition into another point
(19:16):
that I hold out the possibilityat times of being really clear
around who I'm who I am wellequipped to work with, which is
a pretty broad range, but thereare limitations to that and also
not saying not dismissing thosefolks, but saying my medicine of
indigenous comes from and so mymedicine isn't quite right for
them, but I know there are folksout there who do have medicine
(19:38):
that can resonate with them andthank God for that. thank
Goddess for that. It'swonderful, right? So I think
that was number two, right?
Tracie Guy-Decker (19:50):
Or was number three, that was number three.
Really, there was a cleaning thediet and the the children.
April Baskin (19:57):
were children.
Okay. Okay. All right. So I'mgonna try to speed this up. Now.
exit I want to talk about iswishes kept potential. She
didn't say the Sylvian isElijah. I want to name here,
y'all. But sometimes it's calledElijah's cup, or Miriam's cup.
There's this idea withintraditional Judaism that we
opened the door during Passoverto welcoming guests or strangers
and also to see if Elijah isthere to inform us the prophet
(20:20):
Elijah is there to inform usthat the Messianic age or the
Messiah is coming. And in ourwork, I think it's so important.
This is a huge part of a hugeunderpinning. I work with Joyce
justice, is this idea of, of mealways holding out that radical
new possibilities are possible.
(20:43):
And that's not the core placefrom where I work. But I work
with an openness to ametaphorical Elijah coming at
any time. And me working to haveenough agility in my work, that
I can respond and shift, whenthat happens when there is a big
breakthrough when something thatI didn't think what happened.
And that's what happened soquickly does for any number of
(21:05):
reasons.
Tracie Guy-Decker (21:06):
Yeah, that's really beautiful. We keep the
cup ready for when Elijah doescome.
April Baskin (21:11):
Yeah. And this happens in movement work, like
we've seen this in a lot ofdifferent areas around racial
justice. But the example thatfirst comes to mind for me is
around marriage equality, butthey were organizers and
activists who are working fordecades. And then I'd like full
body chills. And then there's anopening and a moment at times,
where something monumental thatnormally would take decades to
(21:32):
happen can happen in a matter ofmonths. And it was able to
happen, in part because therewere people who were willing to
say we were willing to be open,despite all of the pain and
trauma that had happened before.
And despite the fatigue, thatenough people had been preparing
for that potential for yearsthat when it came, they were
ready to act and take action andmake the most, right. And so
(21:55):
back with us, too, with racialjustice is as much as possible
to take it as far as you can.
And then also notice, if thereare certain limitations, then
you might need to conform tothose limitations, if there's
certain ways that you'reblocked, but still, in your
mind, still be pushing for thatfreedom in your mind and
(22:17):
engaging your radicalimagination of okay, I'm
currently limited in my currentrole. And for various reasons, I
might not be able to shift. ButI'm going to hold that it's
possible for somewhere, for anagency for a nonprofit for
corporation to have thispowerful impact in the world.
And I'm going to keepcultivating that. So if and when
I happen by fluke to become theCEO or something happens or an
(22:41):
opportunity comes up at a firmthat's doing just what I said, I
see it, and I'm able to act onit and make the most of that.
That Elijah moment. All right,we just finished for y'all.
We're at the halfway point. Herewe go. Let's keep it going. So
for number five, is the Sederitself. Seder means order. I
(23:04):
also like thinking of it asformation, shout out to Beyonce,
let's get information, let'shave order, is that there's room
for the magical Elijah to comein. And part of what allows
Elijah to work as we just talkedabout, is having different
rituals and structure andpractices that are consistent,
that don't necessarily have tobe as long as traditional Seder
(23:26):
that ideally incorporate partsof the cedar overall, of
remembering our purpose and whatwe're doing. And being
intentional in our process. Andhaving some wine or some
metaphorical having somethingright. Like this is also part of
best prints or at bestprinciples around habit
formation, is having somesweetness in there, right and
(23:50):
celebration around honoringwhat's good, right. But
something that helps acollective of people engage in
rituals that they can begin toexpect and help them feel safe
and also make room for them tobe more creative within a
ritualized practice that can bevery elaborate or relatively
(24:12):
simple, but consistent. That'sbeautiful. That's beautiful.
Thanks. Yeah. Right. All right.
So that was fine. I
Tracie Guy-Decker (24:24):
was five,
April Baskin (24:25):
going ahead and showed six okay. Yeah, so number
six, is a noticing the art ofwhat's happening here in this
theater that is for a specificreason in the holiday, but I
think I can extrapolate it morebroadly to racial justice work.
So we begin thinking about thesedifferent pieces around our diet
(24:46):
and our home and meticulouslygoing through and bringing our
laboratory consciousness intoour individual selves and the
spheres in which we operate.
Right. And then we have ritualsto help keep us on track and
remind us of why we're doingwhat we're doing, and have some
shared expectations with thepeople with whom we're doing
this work around that rhythm,right. And while we're doing
(25:07):
that, is noticing the freedomthat we do have access to, and
getting some pillows andrelaxing a little. And that
might not in your day to daywork or activism or leadership
look like necessarily literallypillows, but it might look like
more comfortable shoes. It mightlook like having a water bottle
(25:28):
with you at all times that maybehas some lemon in it. Or if you
want need electrolytes, whatelse might that look like
Tracie,
Tracie Guy-Decker (25:38):
taking breaks and not giving yourself a hard
time about it.
April Baskin (25:41):
Yeah, taking breaks, reclining, noticing the
freedom that we do have, we'restill in Miss rain, but it isn't
as bad as it was before. And Ibelieve as I think I've talked
about that, I believe inincorporating our destination
into our process. Right, themore we can align with that, the
faster that it can come right.
And to me in the future,ideally, we're still engaging in
(26:02):
I want to engage in rigorousthings in a Messianic era, but I
want them to be things thatbring people joy or that
contribute to the people aroundme in deep relationship and, and
contributing to the furtherelevation of our consciousness
around what's possible forhumans and all sentient
creatures with whom we interacton this gorgeous planet and in
(26:26):
this broader universe, right. Sothat's, that's always going to
be happening and ideally we havetime to to exhale and breathe
and let our shoulders relax andhave a little bit of wine or
whatever version of that if daydrinking is probably not the
best practice in general so sohaving fresh juice fresh
(26:49):
vegetable or fruit juice oreating delicious fruits and
vegetables and yummy sandwichesthat nourish us and feel good
and notice who's near us rightand savor right like I can pause
in this moment in real time andsee Tracie on my screen in front
of me and think wow not only doI get to do work that I'm
(27:16):
passionate about but I get to doit with such a remarkable loving
brilliant consistent, reliable,joyful partner you made me crazy
right right you know that liketo relax into a not let are
(27:38):
working to get out of mythsrhyme allow us not to see some
of the liberation and freedomthat is here right now and is
real right now in this moment.
Right. So I love you Tracie,lovey to April. That was six,
(28:03):
right? Yes. All right.
homestretch, y'all. I think I'mgonna let you bring us home with
the eighth one. Tracie, since itwas your idea. You had one that
I think you might remember. Sofour seven, is we're doing this
in community and with ourfamily, right? So is the Jewish
(28:23):
Passover tradition of if you'reable to inviting a lot of people
to your sacred cedar table,Sabir your save our table of
inviting a lot of people to yourSeder. And, or attending a Seder
that has a number of peopleinvolved? Is this idea of
(28:47):
community is that this work isbest on in the context of
community, especially since itis far more work than any one
person or one team can do. Weneed community we need community
around this work in our movementthat like Passover, the
(29:08):
different minhag team, I thinkwould be the plural, the
different, yes, customs mightvary. But this idea of getting
information continued, but inthe context of many of us
working in alignment with bothdiversity but alignment around
(29:28):
some shared principles in withina broader swath of our work. And
then as movements get evenbigger, there might be different
practices, right? And all ofthose things, right? We're
dealing with so many adaptivechallenges, and so many
variables, that the more we canlean into the power and strength
of that diversity, and thestrength and power that
(29:52):
diversity has as we work on ourown internal cultural competence
meaning our own ability to workeffectively, and be open minded
as we work across lines ofdifference. That's great. And
oftentimes, we don't even needto work that much. across lines
of difference. There arespecific leaders who are doing
that, but more Be at peace andthat it's okay that within a
similar movement, some otherpeople have different
(30:14):
strategies, some of which weagree with, and some of which we
don't. But ultimately, is ittruly moving us in a broader
direction towards collectiveliberation? Yes, but let's keep
it moving. Right. Yeah, so is,is community that part of me
It's Ryan involves contractionand isolation. And part of the
(30:36):
effect of internalizedoppression is to blame the
victim and internalize thatblame, right. And so one of the
best things community can do isto lift up our heads. Right, and
ritual can help us start to dothat and look around and see
that we aren't alone. And thenin fact, this is a broader
issue, which we hear classicallythroughout a number of community
(30:58):
organizing stories, historicallyand today is often can be
actually a galvanizing thing forpeople is because oftentimes,
oppression works to have theperson blame themselves. And
once they realize it's not them.
And it's a broader thing. Andthere's a sort of inspired
righteousness and rage. Althoughagain, I think rage works for
different things for differentpeople, but isn't ultimately the
(31:20):
but is it an initial rage thatopens up this fire within a
person and helps them connectwith their reconnect with their
spirit, and say, it wasn't meall along. This is a trick. This
is a setup. And we can work incommunity to address this. And
to and to not let this ignoranceand oppression continue. Because
(31:41):
we're going to link ARM and ARMwe're touching is not your
thing, walk side by side, andmove toward collective
liberation.
Tracie Guy-Decker (31:50):
Yeah, so I'll just bring us home. Number
eight, is actually related tosome of the other things, but
that is the power of questions.
So this is related to thechildren that that April names
and also to the cleaning that wetalked about. But to really
start to some of the ways thatwe are able to do that our
tradition teaches us to ask toask why, to ask how. And in
(32:12):
those questions, it's notjudgment. It is just an
investigation in order to betterunderstand and therefore
metabolize in different ways.
And so I would offer that asjust the final Passover
practice. To move us I would addliberation. Yeah,
April Baskin (32:34):
yes, thank you.
And I would add a little bitmore to this briefly, which is
that something I learned from myteacher and friend de la McCoy
that I've used in my teachingsmoving forward to is that when
you are in the work, right, ifyou're on the journey, and you
are learning from a person ofcolor, or you're learning from
an inspiring leader, andsomething happens, they do
(32:55):
something or say something thatis upsetting to you, is rather
than checking out, or beingimmediately critical, or
attacking them, is to getcurious. But really, if you
don't understand if somethinghappened, and it sort of miss
you a little bit and you're notfully sure, be willing to get
humble and curious, and toassume that you really may not
(33:19):
know and to ask questions or toreach out and rather than
disengaging or engaging in fightor flight, a way to remain
present, is to stay in a spaceof curiosity, and asking
questions and openness andopenness to insight and greater
(33:39):
knowledge. Yeah,
Tracie Guy-Decker (33:45):
I would say replacing judgment with
curiosity, just in generalserves, serves us well as human
beings.
April Baskin (33:53):
So those are some of our eight Jewish practices
and rituals that with a littlebit of tweaking can be used to
move us more quickly throughMitzrayim into spaciousness and
collective liberation and aMessianic era in which we are
(34:17):
all free and able to be inloving relationship, doing fun,
transformative things togetherfrom a place of possibility and
shared common purpose ratherthan oppression and pain. Hug
Samia, happy Passover. And I'mso excited for us to continue to
(34:42):
walk together in the directionof greater justice and joy.
Thanks for tuning in. To learnmore about joyous justice LLC,
our team and how you can getinvolved with our community.
Check out the info in our shownotes, or find us at joyous
justice.com If you enjoy thisepisode, show us some love.
(35:03):
Subscribe wherever you'relistening. Tell your people
share what you're learning andhow your leadership is evolving.
Stay humble, but not too humble
Tracie Guy-Decker (35:13):
and keep going because the future is ours
Unknown (35:16):
to co create
In honor of Passover this year we are
resharing episode 30 of Jewstalk racial justice. Now, the
Joyous Justice podcast. Enjoythis episode in which Tracie and
I discuss eight different waysof honoring and moving toward
collective liberation in honorof the sacred, meaningful and
(00:22):
rich Jewish holiday of Passover.
You're listening to the joyousjustice podcast, a weekly show
hosted by April Baskin withTracie Guy-Decker. in a complex
(00:43):
world in which systemicoppression conditions us to deny
others and our own humanity.
let's dedicate ourselves to thepursuit and embodiment of
wholeness, love and thriving inthe world and in our own lives.
It's time to heal and flourishour way to a more joyously just
future.
Tracie Guy-Decker (01:08):
So April in our last episode, which
published right before Seder,first Seder, we talked about the
fact that we need to get reallyclear and honest about the fact
that for many black folks andother people of color in
America, the sea never parted.
And they remain in meets regimein Egypt's. Also another
(01:31):
translation of meats, rhyme isthe narrow place. And so today,
this episode is dropping in themiddle of the holiday, we were
just talking about the fact thatthere are some practices of
Passover that can be maybeinstructive on how we move
(01:51):
toward liberation. So I can'twait to hear this. This juicy
list that you have, that you'veput together.
April Baskin (02:03):
Yeah. That you also help to contribute to thank
you. So I think since there areeight different components of
tomorrow, what I call it, Tracy,yeah, you
Tracie Guy-Decker (02:17):
said eight Passover practices that can move
us toward collective liberation.
Yeah.
April Baskin (02:25):
Hashtag racial justice. Okay. So. Okay, so
where do I start digit digitdigit?
Tracie Guy-Decker (02:35):
Okay, can I make a suggestion? I would love
for you to start with the thecleaning.
Unknown (02:42):
Yeah, I was leaning toward that, too. So similar to
how we start the holiday itselfin preparation for the holiday,
is to clean our housesthoroughly, and specifically to
zero in on something that wewant to be removing this case
for the holiday. It's a humates,or items that are leavened,
(03:03):
contain leaven leavening and orother foods depending upon your
Jewish custom, that are notpermitted on Passover, during
Passover, and you need toactually remove them from your
house. A times people throw itout. Other times people like my
(03:23):
mother, who was like this foodis valuable. So we're moving it
into our distance garage orputting it in our storage
facility because we need thisfood when the holidays over.
Tracie Guy-Decker (03:34):
There's a custom to sell it to someone and
then maybe buy it backafterwards. There you have to
get it out of your possession.
April Baskin (03:42):
Get it out of your possession, right. And so this
is our first practice that wewant to sort of modify a bit and
say in general, this is also agood practice as it relates to
racial justice is to pick onething, one manifestation of
internalized oppression forpeople of color and for
(04:03):
internalized oppressor material.
For people who are white or whoare category categorized by
white, much of the time anddaily life in society, to one
practice is to just pick Well,there are many different
attributes of oppression oroppressor material, but to pick
one at a time, and practiceawareness and noticing
(04:27):
throughout your Berent beingthroughout your thought patterns
and your memories and yourspirit. That thing and a
reference tool that might beuseful, that we haven't fully
unpacked yet. are differentattributes of white supremacy
culture, or as Sonia Rene Taylorrefers to it white supremacist
(04:48):
delusion. And some of thosethings include right to comfort,
feeling entitled to comfort andmost situations or urgency IE or
perfectionism, and is to taketime to start to notice and
engage in essentially, hush boneand nefesh. Right? Accounting
(05:11):
soul. Yeah. And accounting ofthe soul. Thank you, Tracie has
my back, as per usual. And yeah,so that's the first one, there's
more I could say. But I want to,I don't want to get too long
here because we have eight tocover. So that's the first one
is take time in within andliterally both. So part of the
(05:33):
metaphor is, you know, the housebeing your inner world, but also
your actual home, is also toperhaps do an inventory. And are
your racial justice valuesreflected in the products you
buy? On the art that is on yourwalls, on the books on your
bookshelf being buying fromartists and Company? Are
(05:54):
companies and thought leaders ofcolor? Are you buying from white
folks who are courageous alliesto people of color, whether or
not that relates to what they'redoing? But Are they someone who
has shown over the course oftheir lives that they are
committed to racial justice? Andeven more in terms of you want
to be edgier? And even morestringent? Is is? Are they
(06:17):
committed anti racists, right?
Are they committed to an ongoingpractice of perfection, but of
doing this and, and this is notto say necessarily, that you
need to go through your home andremove anything that wasn't
purchased from a bike company,but as to notice, it is to
notice that and in anappreciative positive sense,
(06:38):
begin to think about where theremight be opportunities in your
home and the things that yourfamily does, to begin to
incorporate more antiracist intoyour ecosystem. So next up, we
have a shift in diet. I reallylove this one, right? So on
(06:59):
Passover, and for a lot ofpeople, it's difficult in
various ways, for variousreasons. And people also in in
our community, I think it's attimes helpful to be very
inclusive, and say that thereare a range of different kinds
of practices, not only aroundSephardic and Mizrahi and
Ashkenazi, but also just interms of level of observance.
(07:23):
And there are many people whofind Passover meaningful, and
they absorb it in all kinds ofways, right. But in general,
traditionally, there's a shiftin diet, and there's an emphasis
on replacing bread, leavenedbread with matzah. And also
depending upon your custom also,perhaps not eating other foods
that, depending upon minhag, orJewish custom, the Jewish
(07:47):
custom, you observe, are alsonot permitted on Passover. And
so here, what I'm excited aboutis less about literal food,
although that absolutely isincredibly important, but is
just thinking more broadly aboutwhat you're ingesting. What is
your diet? Are you feedingyourself, sources and thought
(08:11):
leadership that support a beliefsystem that is more powerfully
antiracist and liberatory? Areyou listening to leaders who not
only bring rigor, but alsocompassion and practical tools
that help you unpack this again,ideally, you have a diet that
(08:33):
has a robust suite of nutrients.
So you're listening as much asyou are able to and are ready
to, to thought leaders who areedgier and who are really out in
front and leading and who mightnot make things more practical
for you, but help anchor you ina Northstar of where you want to
be moving toward. And then youhave other people who may share
(08:55):
your identity or may who mayhave different identities to
you. But just like, in your lifein general, right? Like we're
taught that we should eatmulticolored vegetables, in an
effort to get a robust, diverseset of minerals and vitamins and
nutrients. You ideally want todo that with your racial justice
work. And ideally, and with yourliberation work more broadly,
(09:19):
and also, specifically racialjustice work is to be thoughtful
about your diet on social mediaabout the shows you watch.
Knowing that collectively Yes,one person only makes such a
difference. We could get intothat whole debate but but that
collectively, the shows we'rechoosing to watch people track
that data, right. So where arewe putting our presence and
(09:39):
therefore money or attend rightand also in terms of what we're
communicating to differentcorporations and leaders by the
ways in which we show up orchoose not to show up? So I
think with this diet piece, justas we eat matzah I think with a
diet an area of what we are ourconsumption, I think it's the
(10:01):
best way that we can be mindfulabout our consumption in two
ways both what are weproactively nourishing ourselves
with? And what are we choosingto put a boundary around?
Whether that is ongoing andpermanent or temporary,
temporary, or in seasons orphases? There's a lot of
different options here. But asto beginning, beginning to be
(10:22):
more mindful about this andrecognizing we have the power of
choice. Tracie, do you want toadd something,
Tracie Guy-Decker (10:28):
I just really want to underline what you just
said about the positive and thenegative piece of not negative,
but avoidant piece of the diet,because I think cash route in
general, which is the laws ofKosher the laws of keeping
kosher, requires you to be morerequires people to be more aware
of what it is that you'reconsuming. And then Passover
(10:49):
adds another layer to cashroute. And so I think that the
learning that the sort of metalearning from this, that April's
pointing to is, is reallyinteresting. And I love the idea
of like, even just for a time,go on a diet, you know,
immediate diet, where you'repaying attention, and thinking
about things that you both thatyou want to bring in and that
(11:09):
you want to not bring in. Ireally love that as a as a
practice.
April Baskin (11:14):
Yeah, and that, to me, I think that gives us a lot
more freedom. That doesn't haveto be only by adding it can also
be about making room. And it'snot only about exclusion, at
times, we don't times peoplethink you have to immediately
exclude and this is just ingeneral for life, that at times
are ways we can make meaningfulchange, without excluding and
starting to just introducehealthier things into our diet,
(11:36):
or a more inspiring, morealigned person into our social
or professional network. Andeventually, we're gonna have to
make some choices, but itdoesn't all have to happen at
once.
Tracie Guy-Decker (11:46):
Right. And I mean, to your point with the
Passover, using it as a Passoverpractice, like comments is not
bad. It's, you know, when it'snot Passover, hametz is fine,
it's good. And so there are badthings that you should take out
of your diet. But my point isjust like that intentional,
temporary, or even morepermanent noticing and Choice.
(12:07):
Choice opportunities is notnecessarily it doesn't have to
be a huge judgment call.
Unknown (12:14):
Right? But that's another way that we can move
toward what's the word rightlike is to move toward
collective liberation. That'sthat's sort of my phrase for
what some may call the Messianicera is when we've achieved
collective liberation. I justgot to all sentient beings and
the earth as well as a
Tracie Guy-Decker (12:38):
collective liberation is the Messianic age.
Who That's gorgeous.
Unknown (12:44):
Yay, thanks. Right. So So we're talking about from
Mitzrayim, to messianiccollective Messianic era,
collective liberation and andthat shows a little bit of my
reform movement bias as somepeople think, necessarily, that
it might literally be a personand I grew up in a context where
it was more thought of as a timeand a context, more so than any
(13:08):
one singular person. So next up,is
April Baskin (13:17):
the four children.
I want to name it. So I reallylove the four children as it
relates to some moving out ofMitzrayim and toward collective
liberation strategy. In terms ofrecognizing and I'm immediately
reminded of this song that Ishared in one of our courses,
our racial justice intensive,called whiteness of Ruta. One of
(13:41):
the things that we shared in oneof the sessions was a song from
Lolly called all my ancestors.
And I think of the four childrenas being aligned with the song
all my asters a little bit,although it's the four children
traditionally can be a littlebit more harsh in some ways. But
(14:02):
it's just like dia that as we'reworking, and doing our work,
that there are different peoplewith different narratives, and
that each one of them I've lovedthis is I'm like nerding out
right now. As someone whoteaches about racial equity and
effective multicultural strategyand interaction and one of the
(14:22):
core principles in that alignsbeautifully with this idea of
the four children that there arefour children with four
different tendencies and kindsof questions. And because there
are differences in them, theyalso require different
responses. For one of them. Ithink the response traditionally
(14:43):
is a little bit harsh, and thechild is told you know, you
know, when when a child asks thecustom Do you want to say it
Tracy?
Tracie Guy-Decker (14:51):
The thing about setting your teeth on edge
setting their teeth on edge thatthing? I don't
April Baskin (14:55):
remember. I was thinking more about just the in
my in my i think i I think wehad one of the classic versions
of God I when I was like, Ican't olders one, essentially,
yeah. Are Maxwell House or houseMaxwell House? Now I'm not sure
if it's separate, though. Butit's another one that I think
like many, many, many families.
Tracie Guy-Decker (15:13):
Maxwell House is the one I grew up with from
the 1920s. Yeah,
April Baskin (15:16):
yeah. And it talks about how the, the child who
says, Why do Why do you do this?
Distance, right. And the Texasrecord is supposed to say which
I would not say this to mychild? Well, you know, like, you
wouldn't have been let out ofEgypt, if that's how you felt
like this is a collective thing.
And since you're, so I'm not,I'm not, I'm not taking this
(15:38):
wholesale from the traditionaltags. My point is, is as we're
moving through this, torecognize that different people
are in different places withthis. And it's helpful to notice
that and so maybe you want towork with the kid who's down
with it, who's into it, maybeyou want over the person who is
like I'm here for it, and maybeanother person who is really
inquisitive, or doesn't knowwhat questions to ask, but
(16:00):
cares, or people enter this workin different ways. And it's
still possible to achieve, wedon't need 100% alignment of
humanity, in order for us toachieve monumental feats. We
just need a critical mass ofpeople who are asking aligned
(16:21):
questions, and additional peoplewho are asking slightly not
aligned questions that help toagitate us, and to strengthen
the questions we're asking andto strengthen our strategies. So
my point is four kinds ofpeople, four plus kinds of folks
in this work and to recognizethat people are at different
developmental levels. And Iprobably quoted her before, and
(16:44):
I'll quote her again, I lovewhen Sherry Brown has said that
Unknown (16:50):
you need to meet people where they are, it's like, you
might want somebody to besomewhere else. But they are
where they are. And the thingis, that doesn't mean that every
person, whatever your work youmight be doing is that you have
to work with it, you can choose,right? But but you want to make
a choice around being aware. AndFrank and you within your own
(17:11):
mind of this is where thisperson is. And you want to work
with them if this is where theyare, because it's not going to
help me to wish they werefarther along than they are
because they're not yet. And sothen we get to make that choice
in deciding if this is someonein a French partnership, and
moving work toward moving ourworld toward justice, if we want
(17:32):
to take that on or not.
Tracie Guy-Decker (17:35):
Just reminds me of the sort of the idea that
this work is too important tothrow people away. And so I
think that if folks are in ourpresence and asking questions
with genuine Kavanaugh, becauseyou know, there is a method of
trolling and you went intention.
Yeah, thank you. carbonize withintention, so that there is a
method of trolling that involvesasking questions. So that's not
(17:56):
what I'm talking about. But Ithink if someone is asking
questions, even if thosequestions are difficult or
wicked as our as our calls it,if they're if they come from
genuine desire to learn, thenthis work is too important to
throw people away.
April Baskin (18:13):
Yeah, and what I would add, though, at times to,
to kick it up a notch is, Ithink it's important to honor
all questions. And if someone'sat a certain developmental
level, they might not be readyto join a specific leadership
team or a specific project yet,and there's likely a different
place from their position fromwhat they know where they can be
(18:34):
met. And that's the coreprinciple without getting into
some of the specifics of
Unknown (18:39):
some favoritism or some meanness that could play out at
times in some of our traditionalJewish texts is more this idea
that there's a strategy, there'sa resource and a strategy for
every person, you just haven't,you might not have identified it
yet.
April Baskin (18:54):
And my hope is that there are enough people
doing this work that the groupsare people who may be hard for
me to work with for any numberof reasons, or they may find it
hard for me to work with.
Hopefully, I have some allies orsome other partners of color in
this work, who do have the rightmedicine or resources for those
folks, right and so as to noticeat times, and to hold out a
possibility, which can kind oftransition into another point
(19:16):
that I hold out the possibilityat times of being really clear
around who I'm who I am wellequipped to work with, which is
a pretty broad range, but thereare limitations to that and also
not saying not dismissing thosefolks, but saying my medicine of
indigenous comes from and so mymedicine isn't quite right for
them, but I know there are folksout there who do have medicine
(19:38):
that can resonate with them andthank God for that. thank
Goddess for that. It'swonderful, right? So I think
that was number two, right?
Tracie Guy-Decker (19:50):
Or was number three, that was number three.
Really, there was a cleaning thediet and the the children.
April Baskin (19:57):
were children.
Okay. Okay. All right. So I'mgonna try to speed this up. Now.
exit I want to talk about iswishes kept potential. She
didn't say the Sylvian isElijah. I want to name here,
y'all. But sometimes it's calledElijah's cup, or Miriam's cup.
There's this idea withintraditional Judaism that we
opened the door during Passoverto welcoming guests or strangers
and also to see if Elijah isthere to inform us the prophet
(20:20):
Elijah is there to inform usthat the Messianic age or the
Messiah is coming. And in ourwork, I think it's so important.
This is a huge part of a hugeunderpinning. I work with Joyce
justice, is this idea of, of mealways holding out that radical
new possibilities are possible.
(20:43):
And that's not the core placefrom where I work. But I work
with an openness to ametaphorical Elijah coming at
any time. And me working to haveenough agility in my work, that
I can respond and shift, whenthat happens when there is a big
breakthrough when something thatI didn't think what happened.
And that's what happened soquickly does for any number of
(21:05):
reasons.
Tracie Guy-Decker (21:06):
Yeah, that's really beautiful. We keep the
cup ready for when Elijah doescome.
April Baskin (21:11):
Yeah. And this happens in movement work, like
we've seen this in a lot ofdifferent areas around racial
justice. But the example thatfirst comes to mind for me is
around marriage equality, butthey were organizers and
activists who are working fordecades. And then I'd like full
body chills. And then there's anopening and a moment at times,
where something monumental thatnormally would take decades to
(21:32):
happen can happen in a matter ofmonths. And it was able to
happen, in part because therewere people who were willing to
say we were willing to be open,despite all of the pain and
trauma that had happened before.
And despite the fatigue, thatenough people had been preparing
for that potential for yearsthat when it came, they were
ready to act and take action andmake the most, right. And so
(21:55):
back with us, too, with racialjustice is as much as possible
to take it as far as you can.
And then also notice, if thereare certain limitations, then
you might need to conform tothose limitations, if there's
certain ways that you'reblocked, but still, in your
mind, still be pushing for thatfreedom in your mind and
(22:17):
engaging your radicalimagination of okay, I'm
currently limited in my currentrole. And for various reasons, I
might not be able to shift. ButI'm going to hold that it's
possible for somewhere, for anagency for a nonprofit for
corporation to have thispowerful impact in the world.
And I'm going to keepcultivating that. So if and when
I happen by fluke to become theCEO or something happens or an
(22:41):
opportunity comes up at a firmthat's doing just what I said, I
see it, and I'm able to act onit and make the most of that.
That Elijah moment. All right,we just finished for y'all.
We're at the halfway point. Herewe go. Let's keep it going. So
for number five, is the Sederitself. Seder means order. I
(23:04):
also like thinking of it asformation, shout out to Beyonce,
let's get information, let'shave order, is that there's room
for the magical Elijah to comein. And part of what allows
Elijah to work as we just talkedabout, is having different
rituals and structure andpractices that are consistent,
that don't necessarily have tobe as long as traditional Seder
(23:26):
that ideally incorporate partsof the cedar overall, of
remembering our purpose and whatwe're doing. And being
intentional in our process. Andhaving some wine or some
metaphorical having somethingright. Like this is also part of
best prints or at bestprinciples around habit
formation, is having somesweetness in there, right and
(23:50):
celebration around honoringwhat's good, right. But
something that helps acollective of people engage in
rituals that they can begin toexpect and help them feel safe
and also make room for them tobe more creative within a
ritualized practice that can bevery elaborate or relatively
(24:12):
simple, but consistent. That'sbeautiful. That's beautiful.
Thanks. Yeah. Right. All right.
So that was fine. I
Tracie Guy-Decker (24:24):
was five,
April Baskin (24:25):
going ahead and showed six okay. Yeah, so number
six, is a noticing the art ofwhat's happening here in this
theater that is for a specificreason in the holiday, but I
think I can extrapolate it morebroadly to racial justice work.
So we begin thinking about thesedifferent pieces around our diet
(24:46):
and our home and meticulouslygoing through and bringing our
laboratory consciousness intoour individual selves and the
spheres in which we operate.
Right. And then we have ritualsto help keep us on track and
remind us of why we're doingwhat we're doing, and have some
shared expectations with thepeople with whom we're doing
this work around that rhythm,right. And while we're doing
(25:07):
that, is noticing the freedomthat we do have access to, and
getting some pillows andrelaxing a little. And that
might not in your day to daywork or activism or leadership
look like necessarily literallypillows, but it might look like
more comfortable shoes. It mightlook like having a water bottle
(25:28):
with you at all times that maybehas some lemon in it. Or if you
want need electrolytes, whatelse might that look like
Tracie,
Tracie Guy-Decker (25:38):
taking breaks and not giving yourself a hard
time about it.
April Baskin (25:41):
Yeah, taking breaks, reclining, noticing the
freedom that we do have, we'restill in Miss rain, but it isn't
as bad as it was before. And Ibelieve as I think I've talked
about that, I believe inincorporating our destination
into our process. Right, themore we can align with that, the
faster that it can come right.
And to me in the future,ideally, we're still engaging in
(26:02):
I want to engage in rigorousthings in a Messianic era, but I
want them to be things thatbring people joy or that
contribute to the people aroundme in deep relationship and, and
contributing to the furtherelevation of our consciousness
around what's possible forhumans and all sentient
creatures with whom we interacton this gorgeous planet and in
(26:26):
this broader universe, right. Sothat's, that's always going to
be happening and ideally we havetime to to exhale and breathe
and let our shoulders relax andhave a little bit of wine or
whatever version of that if daydrinking is probably not the
best practice in general so sohaving fresh juice fresh
(26:49):
vegetable or fruit juice oreating delicious fruits and
vegetables and yummy sandwichesthat nourish us and feel good
and notice who's near us rightand savor right like I can pause
in this moment in real time andsee Tracie on my screen in front
of me and think wow not only doI get to do work that I'm
(27:16):
passionate about but I get to doit with such a remarkable loving
brilliant consistent, reliable,joyful partner you made me crazy
right right you know that liketo relax into a not let are
(27:38):
working to get out of mythsrhyme allow us not to see some
of the liberation and freedomthat is here right now and is
real right now in this moment.
Right. So I love you Tracie,lovey to April. That was six,
(28:03):
right? Yes. All right.
homestretch, y'all. I think I'mgonna let you bring us home with
the eighth one. Tracie, since itwas your idea. You had one that
I think you might remember. Sofour seven, is we're doing this
in community and with ourfamily, right? So is the Jewish
(28:23):
Passover tradition of if you'reable to inviting a lot of people
to your sacred cedar table,Sabir your save our table of
inviting a lot of people to yourSeder. And, or attending a Seder
that has a number of peopleinvolved? Is this idea of
(28:47):
community is that this work isbest on in the context of
community, especially since itis far more work than any one
person or one team can do. Weneed community we need community
around this work in our movementthat like Passover, the
(29:08):
different minhag team, I thinkwould be the plural, the
different, yes, customs mightvary. But this idea of getting
information continued, but inthe context of many of us
working in alignment with bothdiversity but alignment around
(29:28):
some shared principles in withina broader swath of our work. And
then as movements get evenbigger, there might be different
practices, right? And all ofthose things, right? We're
dealing with so many adaptivechallenges, and so many
variables, that the more we canlean into the power and strength
of that diversity, and thestrength and power that
(29:52):
diversity has as we work on ourown internal cultural competence
meaning our own ability to workeffectively, and be open minded
as we work across lines ofdifference. That's great. And
oftentimes, we don't even needto work that much. across lines
of difference. There arespecific leaders who are doing
that, but more Be at peace andthat it's okay that within a
similar movement, some otherpeople have different
(30:14):
strategies, some of which weagree with, and some of which we
don't. But ultimately, is ittruly moving us in a broader
direction towards collectiveliberation? Yes, but let's keep
it moving. Right. Yeah, so is,is community that part of me
It's Ryan involves contractionand isolation. And part of the
(30:36):
effect of internalizedoppression is to blame the
victim and internalize thatblame, right. And so one of the
best things community can do isto lift up our heads. Right, and
ritual can help us start to dothat and look around and see
that we aren't alone. And thenin fact, this is a broader
issue, which we hear classicallythroughout a number of community
(30:58):
organizing stories, historicallyand today is often can be
actually a galvanizing thing forpeople is because oftentimes,
oppression works to have theperson blame themselves. And
once they realize it's not them.
And it's a broader thing. Andthere's a sort of inspired
righteousness and rage. Althoughagain, I think rage works for
different things for differentpeople, but isn't ultimately the
(31:20):
but is it an initial rage thatopens up this fire within a
person and helps them connectwith their reconnect with their
spirit, and say, it wasn't meall along. This is a trick. This
is a setup. And we can work incommunity to address this. And
to and to not let this ignoranceand oppression continue. Because
(31:41):
we're going to link ARM and ARMwe're touching is not your
thing, walk side by side, andmove toward collective
liberation.
Tracie Guy-Decker (31:50):
Yeah, so I'll just bring us home. Number
eight, is actually related tosome of the other things, but
that is the power of questions.
So this is related to thechildren that that April names
and also to the cleaning that wetalked about. But to really
start to some of the ways thatwe are able to do that our
tradition teaches us to ask toask why, to ask how. And in
(32:12):
those questions, it's notjudgment. It is just an
investigation in order to betterunderstand and therefore
metabolize in different ways.
And so I would offer that asjust the final Passover
practice. To move us I would addliberation. Yeah,
April Baskin (32:34):
yes, thank you.
And I would add a little bitmore to this briefly, which is
that something I learned from myteacher and friend de la McCoy
that I've used in my teachingsmoving forward to is that when
you are in the work, right, ifyou're on the journey, and you
are learning from a person ofcolor, or you're learning from
an inspiring leader, andsomething happens, they do
(32:55):
something or say something thatis upsetting to you, is rather
than checking out, or beingimmediately critical, or
attacking them, is to getcurious. But really, if you
don't understand if somethinghappened, and it sort of miss
you a little bit and you're notfully sure, be willing to get
humble and curious, and toassume that you really may not
(33:19):
know and to ask questions or toreach out and rather than
disengaging or engaging in fightor flight, a way to remain
present, is to stay in a spaceof curiosity, and asking
questions and openness andopenness to insight and greater
(33:39):
knowledge. Yeah,
Tracie Guy-Decker (33:45):
I would say replacing judgment with
curiosity, just in generalserves, serves us well as human
beings.
April Baskin (33:53):
So those are some of our eight Jewish practices
and rituals that with a littlebit of tweaking can be used to
move us more quickly throughMitzrayim into spaciousness and
collective liberation and aMessianic era in which we are
(34:17):
all free and able to be inloving relationship, doing fun,
transformative things togetherfrom a place of possibility and
shared common purpose ratherthan oppression and pain. Hug
Samia, happy Passover. And I'mso excited for us to continue to
(34:42):
walk together in the directionof greater justice and joy.
Thanks for tuning in. To learnmore about joyous justice LLC,
our team and how you can getinvolved with our community.
Check out the info in our shownotes, or find us at joyous
justice.com If you enjoy thisepisode, show us some love.
(35:03):
Subscribe wherever you'relistening. Tell your people
share what you're learning andhow your leadership is evolving.
Stay humble, but not too humble
Tracie Guy-Decker (35:13):
and keep going because the future is ours
Unknown (35:16):
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