September 21, 2023 • 49 mins
In this episode (recorded as an Instagram Live before April's Kohenet ordination), April unpacks and examines the buzzword term "trauma-informed." Thinking and talking about trauma has become more and more common. While this is, generally speaking, a good thing, it's important--especially with something fraught, fragile, and potentially triggering--for us to be clear about what we mean, what is possible, and what is safe. April offers a new term, "trauma-agile," to help make things clear.
Discussion and reflection questions:
What in this episode is new for you? What have you learned and how does it land?
What is resonating? What is sticking with you and why?
What feels hard? What is challenging or on the edge for you?
What feelings and sensations are arising and where in your body do you feel them?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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April Baskin (00:00):
When somebody says trauma informed, there's a
(00:03):
spectrum of what that means.
You're listening to the Joycejustice podcast, a weekly show
hosted by April Baskin withTracie Guy-Decker. in a complex
world in which systemicoppression conditions us to deny
(00:25):
others and our own humanity,let's dedicate ourselves to the
pursuit and embodiment ofwholeness, love and thriving in
the world. And in our own lives.
It's time to heal and flourishour way to a more joyously just
future.
Unknown (00:48):
I've started to notice and it started to like, agitate
me, which is interesting tonotice, because separate lesson,
but it's bringing up bigfeelings. So I can also explore
within myself, why is itagitating me, when I see people
talking about or inferring thatthey are trauma informed. And to
me, it basically falls simplysaying that on the surface
(01:10):
level, and we're going to getinto even more depth that when
people are saying traumainformed my sense at times, in
simpe, in broad strokes is thatpeople are talking about trauma
awareness. And, and from a placeof like, trauma limited. That
there is trauma, and thereforethen we need to stop. That's
(01:33):
That's it and or it comes up ina few other ways. Like, it can
be a need for deep care, whichin some ways can be very good.
At times, it can start to moveinto sort of coddling and
there's ways where I'm beingintersectional if you're the
simple version, and then there'smore to it is, to me, when
people say trauma informed Iplace it in two basic
(01:54):
categories. And then actually,there's more there's like four
levels of nuance of traumalimited, or trauma agile. And in
short trauma agile implies to meor I'm seeing demonstrations of
folks whose content is traumaagile, that it demonstrates that
(02:14):
none of this in and of itself isbad, per se. But depending upon
the way people are wielding orusing, how they are inferring
that they are trauma informedcan be irresponsible at times,
depending upon the context. Butit's there's nothing wrong with
different people being indifferent places of awareness or
understanding. It's what they dowith their positionality and how
(02:37):
they leverage that. Right. Butthere are ways that people who
are early and so basically, Iguess, part of the overall
headline of this is there's athere's a tremendous amount that
one can learn and based upon thelessons and teachings that I had
in 30 years of learning abouthealing, and specifically 10
(02:59):
years of learning, specificallycounter oppressive trauma,
healing, and learning fromelders in this work and a
counter oppressive internationaldecolonize or endeavoring to
continually decolonize communityand network of practitioners
(03:19):
that as humans, we have immensecapacity to heal, and to heal
from trauma. And there is a hugebelieve pervasive belief that
side note or not side note, isdeeply in support of keeping
internalized and collectiveoppression and locked in place,
(03:41):
and also is deeply in service ofkeeping systemic oppression in
place because it's deeply inservice of keeping people in a
place of disempowerment. Rightnow, obviously, there's huge
issues. I do not agree withmultiple brilliant leaders out
there who I don't disagree,excuse me, with multiple
brilliant leaders out there whoare saying, and I'm a part of
(04:02):
that call for there to begreater trauma informed mental
health services, and alsocommunal support, and there's
any number of way that traumacan be addressed. And there's a
plethora of ways that it can beaddressed. That's what the main
point of this talk today, what Iwant to talk about is this
trauma informed piece and kindof expand it out. Right? And so
(04:25):
at times when I see peoplesaying things, like, there's
just specific incidents that Ican think of, so I've seen
different examples in a numberof different spaces, where the
basically the kind of memo isthis person or I have trauma,
therefore, that whole area ofliving the whole of it times
like just intimaterelationships, family
(04:46):
connections, different.
Operating in different spaces isno longer available to me. And
what I would say is that theyare at the level of trauma
awareness that they have yet tolearn about the other layers.
errors. And so their postsconvey a template even meaning
to convey that like, Okay, wellwe're talking about trauma more
(05:07):
now. But but now that there'strauma here, there's nothing
that can be done, which is verydifferent than someone who might
post something similar. But interms of nuance and
sophistication and implication,it's is a vastly different
message, right? If someone mightpost something similar, like
this is a place around thehistory of trauma. So right now,
I'm going to see some of my lifeor I'm not engaging in these
different ways, right. And I'mby again, to be very clear here,
(05:29):
just briefly, I'm not talkingabout, for instance, perhaps
some extenuating circumstancewhere there's a specific person
or a particular place that isespecially bad, I'm talking
about a trend that hopefully anumber of you have also noticed.
Now, hopefully, but perhaps anumber of you have also noticed
of folks saying, Okay, there'strauma here and so we can't do
that, and there's the sense ofdisempowerment or, or just like
(05:52):
finality, and that is so not thecase, it would be as if like an
equivalent, which I'm going touse a model for liberatory, I'm
going to, in a moment, layersome of my understanding and
what I'm proposing, here's a wayof thinking about this about
trauma with Professor Barbara Jloves liberatory consciousness
(06:14):
model. And he's sort of like ifsomeone said, oh, there's, like,
I'm learning about theirs, whichis actually that actually
happens to a ton of people,someone has been teaching about
racial justice for 20 plus yearsof like, oh, there's racism. So
like, there's nothing else todo, as opposed to No, there is a
whole world of healing andmultiple steps that we can take
(06:35):
to empower and equip andresource ourselves and other
people. Okay, and again, talkingabout this kind of
simultaneously at some pointsmore than another, partially as
practitioners who bring a traumainformed lens for those of us
who do, and also as individualsthinking about how we are trauma
informed about the stories ofour lives, and how that has
(06:57):
different implications in ourleadership, which is what I
cover in much greater depth andspecificity in my group coaching
program grounded and growingamong a number of other pieces
that I think are necessary forthe caliber of multi dimensional
leadership that today'spreponderance of adaptive
challenges call upon us. And sothe other piece about this too,
(07:19):
is so that we have I talkedabout trauma limited a little
bit, and then let's juxtaposethat with trauma agile,
which, when it's done well or,or someone who seems from my
perspective, you know,classified as they have some
trauma, agility, as apractitioner, as someone who's
teaching or coaching or leading,which means they have an
(07:42):
understanding, a greater depthof understanding about travel,
and about people's capacity toheal, and about the reality that
folks may be anywhere on thathealing journey. But all people,
including people who haveexperienced trauma are
inherently brilliant, haveimmense capacity for growth, and
(08:02):
have immense capacity forpowerful leadership. And that in
their talking, and in theirdiscernment, and navigation. And
when they're teaching andleading, there is profound
empathy, and there is profoundunderstanding about various
sensitivities. And so they mayweave in if they're working with
any given population, either amultiracial group of people, or
(08:23):
if they're working with a monocultural or a mono racial group
of people. Let's say I wasworking with black folks, I
would be aware that in thatspace, because I'm informed
about and I guess, I guessthat's another layer of it,
which I'm not going to get intotoo much. Because the other
piece that I need to think aboutabout this we can get into is
when people are saying traumainformed. Are they talking about
(08:45):
it just on the individual level?
Or do they also have analysisabout collective trauma and
collective trauma patterns, thatwe don't want to get into
stereotypes, but that we can seethat there are useful but not
universal trends that variousgroups of people who have been
targeted for destruction andthose who have been positioned
in the dominant role have alsobeen a part of systems of
(09:07):
oppression and part of how whenI teach about oppression one on
one, which I've been consideringdoing a live here or like
putting out a call, I weighed intrauma informed, basic levels of
trauma informed and specificallytrauma agile insight into that
and so that we're not justtalking about systems of
(09:28):
oppression, but one of thethings I say very clearly which
I'll state right now, too, isthat in any system of
oppression, Cisco systems ofoppression run fundamentally on
dehumanization. And in anycontext, where anyone is
implicated in dehumanization,there is likely varying degrees
of subtlety to quite intenseindividual and collective trauma
(09:51):
involved for everyone. There'sobviously more trauma that the
targeted group sustained In whatan order, but when a group of
people have been positioned tobe in the dominant role,
particularly over generations,which is what generally how the
professionals and teachers andscholars from whom I've learned,
(10:13):
and and who molded me in theway, I've been teaching this for
20 years, that's how infundamentally we understand
trauma, because it's not onenegative moment or even several
years of negative experience ortargeting. It's, it's targeting.
Typically, although there can benew forms of oppression, God
(10:33):
forbid, but develop and so butthat happened over generations
of time over a sustained period,right, that hasn't qualify as a
systemic form of oppression,right? So these are things that
are happening over generations.
So I wasn't even planning ongetting into that. But that's
something that we could alsohave a whole separate
conversation about, and that inthe context of my group coaching
(10:56):
and Leadership Program groundedand growing, we take time to
specifically talk about that. Soyeah, so trauma Agile is ideally
soulmate when I say traumainformed and all my work I am
endeavoring to say and I wantthem to say explicitly here,
that when I'm talking abouttrauma informed, I'm talking
about as someone who as apractitioner, and in my own
(11:17):
living from up from my own 30Plus healing journey around
extensive trauma is traumaagile. So I wanted to this might
be a bit much for someone alsojuicy for others, so just hang
in, hang in there with me. Butso, okay, so basically, the
(11:38):
trauma limited, I would say iswhen people are so when
practitioners or individuals, interms of understanding trauma
are in more of the traumalimited, which doesn't
necessarily have to be bad.
Right, but but it there's just alimitation of what the trauma
informed means in their case.
And so as you're seeing postsfrom them, talking about what is
(12:01):
or isn't possible for peoplewith trauma, please notice, are
they coming from a traumalimited place or limited
awareness about about anylimited trauma, some significant
and meaningful trauma awareness,but also it has a limit? Right?
So if we look at Barbara, soBarbara loves liberatory
(12:21):
consciousness model talks aboutfour levels that we need to
establish some of y'all in thisspace are quite unfortunately,
aware of this. Okay, peoplepositioned as oppressors also
carry in US trauma. Yes, that'sexactly what I say. Yes. Being
trained in Domination is atraumatic experience. Yes, and
no child. Okay, fine. And Ithink, like maybe point 00 1%
(12:42):
But most human children whenthey are born, do not, do not
have a proclivity to oppresspeople. There's a sense we are a
social pact species that we wantto be connected and loving and
connected with people acrosslines of difference share
different things, right? Thatthat is something so when people
(13:05):
which most humans are frombirth, and even pre birth for
people, we're all humans, all ofyou. I'm getting up top there's
so much I can talk about. Butall humans are exposed fatally,
to oppression because unless youwere born in an incubator, all
people were born in bodies ofpeople with uteruses, and people
(13:28):
with uteruses are highlyoppressed globally, in this
world. And as tech not Hanteaches about eating our food,
we're all deeply into humanexperience and energies are all
deeply interconnected. So ifwe're being honest and
realistic, and thinking moredeeply than white dominant
culture or white supremacy,culture has conditioned us to
(13:49):
think we would know that evenbefore we were born out, we're
living in the body of someonewho's been targeted by
depression. But guess exactlywhat you said. Your sister
yudishe Kate? Yes, yes, yes. Soin Barbara loves liberatory
leadership model, there are fourstages. There's awareness of
(14:11):
becoming aware of say racism, orany form of systemic oppression,
then and so And at times, interms of systemic oppression,
some people don't even get tothe level of awareness, right,
but awareness is key. And peopleat times think awareness is all
of this other stuff, sort oflike people think trauma
informed, or would automaticallyassume because one would think
(14:31):
that, that, that all of thesedifferent things are a part of
awareness, but awareness is justthe first. There's lots of
people say like in Americansociety, on Turtle Island, and
in many mainstream, still, likeheavily settler colonial
societies, which is most a lotof people don't even have an
awareness of or much awarenessof systemic oppression so that
(14:54):
it isn't all of these steps areimportant, systemic awareness
that the next natural step formost leaders and that's really
important to get deeper isanalysis, right. And the way
that barber loves speaks aboutanalysis is in a few different
ways in the ways that I wouldsort of add limited add to it is
to say that analysis, when westart to get into analysis, we
are integrating that awarenessand that additional increasing
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endless knowledge, but a certainkey body of knowledge into the
details and texture of ourliving, and into the contexts
within which we operate. So howis this information relevant in
these different spaces? How isracial injustice, or systemic
racial inequity, or gender bias,or heteronormativity, or any of
(15:43):
the various forms of orfatphobia, or any of the various
forms of oppression, I canunderstand and start to
understand it exists? And how itshows up? And how people who
live in bodies of differenttargeted identities, what their
experiences, but analysis startsto get into both system wide and
also for a person? How does thatstart to shift and or add more
(16:07):
texture and depth to the storyof my life? How, how do I look
at people in my life who havethese different identities and
start to think about, again,patterns and sociological
realities that they were dealingwith that weren't a part of the
story I was telling about them.
Right. And obviously, you don'thave to do this entirely we can
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do this is something that we cando over time. But that's what we
start to do when we get intoanalysis is thinking about the
different implications andmoving it through the fabric of
our living. And that's true,also, too, with starting to get
to a deeper layer of beingtrauma informed, right, so the
first layer of people, so to me,when I have now look at
(16:52):
something that says traumainformed unless I have other
markers where I know thatentity, my general defaults will
want us to check it out,honestly, and see, but if I'm
not seeing indicators that theyare trauma actual, or have more
sophistication, or little oraround trauma itself, as well as
if they've done any work aroundintegrating, which ideally it
(17:15):
should be, that's what how ithappens in the world,
integrating their understandingof systemic oppression with
trauma, informed analysis,right? So I'm looking for those
things that I can see. But Iknow that most things wherever
they are, they're talking aboutit to what extent another,
they're doing that because oftrauma aware, right. Just like
if somebody's talking about raceinitially, we can know that
(17:37):
their trauma that they'reracially aware, to a certain
extent, you have racialanalysis, I don't know, I need
to just read what they'rewriting and see how they're
showing up in the world, youknow, all of those different
pieces, right. And so then thenext stage after that, so in
Barbara loves model, there'sfour stages of liberatory
consciousness in general, whichis awareness analysis. And then
(18:00):
there's two different models, ofcourse, I've seen them flipped
for racial justice,specifically, I like to have it
in a particular order in lightof my 20 years of experience
working with differentinstitutions. So in my version
of it, it's awareness analysis,then accountability. And
accountability is a word thatcan scare folks who are target,
excuse me a non targetidentities and so the synonym or
(18:23):
word that I like it to get thepoint of accountability across
that doesn't feel as punitive iscommitment. So in a person's
living and also in the life ofan institution, in what ways are
their is their infrastructure,and systems in place to ensure
commitment to values aroundadvancing racial justice and
(18:47):
equity, inclusion and diversitywithin their institution? is
commitment. And accountability.
Right, and when things go wrong,how are we holding? How are we
holding each other? And thisprocess? How are we ensuring
that this continues? Someonewrote in the chat? Is trauma
responsive? And okay, term? Ithink it can be right, it's more
(19:09):
about like, okay, so I'm gonnabe the rest of your question. So
is trauma responsive enough? Theterm Sweden has no awareness
analysis? Shrimati. I hear you,okay, I'm tracking that, etc.
and trauma agile would be toocomplicated to even introduce
and passing. I think that thatmight be too complicated to
introduce. I mean, it may bethat in various cases, to be
(19:30):
honest with you, in the in theUS, too, okay. would be too
complicated to even introduce inpassing is my belief as one of
the admins Okay, so Shrimati, inmy Jewish tradition, at times
will say Shrimati, which means Ihear you, this is a great
question. So I think what whatI'm saying so what I'm saying
here, which is different thanwhat's being said, because at
(19:50):
times, don't use a certain term,I'm not saying what what I'm
trying to do is bring likepractitioner and consumer
awareness Write of like, whensomebody says trauma informed,
there's a spectrum of what thatmeans. And especially as someone
who feels especially protectiveof my peoples and people who are
adjacent to my peoples, so I amblack, indigenous and Jewish, I
(20:14):
remember of three differentpeoples who have been targeted
for destruction, which wouldalso, that's a separate thing.
Like I continue to work on mytrauma healing. And so I can get
in my feelings at times, as apractitioner, when I see people
marketing things that are traumainformed, say, like, trauma
healing, like, come to thissession about it to experience,
(20:35):
I can't, there was something Isaw once and I can't quite
remember what it was called, wasbasically like Jewish trauma
healing, and I don't think theymeant but it kind of implied
that the Jews attending thatcould heal their trauma, and it
was one hour long. Okay, so Imentioned before earlier in the
slide, but that I'm of thebelief from the people from whom
(20:55):
I have learned this wisdom whohave been doing this work for
decades and helps peopleglobally, survivors of war,
physical violence, I mean, manydifferent things, loss, many
different things, that it isdeeply possible for most humans
to heal from most of theirtrauma, if given the right
resources. And over over time,through with the right resources
(21:19):
in the right practices, some ofwhich, when it's done in the
right, safe container arerelatively free, right, we as
humans, were born with all thedifferent tools we need to heal,
but we've been socialized.
Again, this is something that Iteach my program grounding and
growing, to stifle some of ourfoundational natural healing
mechanisms, and in mostsocieties, some of the ways that
(21:43):
people naturally heal is heavilystigmatized. So back to what
you're saying about traumaresponsive, so part of that
depends on the nature of whatyou're doing. So to me trauma
responsive, which means thatwe're that's kind of similar to
trauma agile, or maybe at leastat the level of having some
trauma analysis. So if you'redoing a program where, based
upon your knowledge andexperience, you have a capacity
(22:07):
to be responsibly, responsiblyresponsive to the population to
a person within, you know, whois within a given population of
as a diverse population orspecific population that has
specific individual andcollective patterns. Like, to me
that is, ideally what traumaresponsive implies. And
(22:28):
obviously, like, I'm not thearbiter of this, right, but but
that when I'm looking at thingslike that, as a consumer at
times, like I mostly have myneeds met through different
communities I'm a part of, but Ialso to also curious about what
people are doing, or at timesmight see something, and like,
oh, maybe that can also furtherhelp me on my ongoing trauma,
healing for myself, or help meas a practitioner, and I'm
(22:50):
looking to see different thingsthat indicate that are
indicators and how they'respeaking. You know, if they have
a laboratory, and robustsophisticated analysis, about
trauma and the ways that itintersects with systems of
oppression, in Barbara, thosemodel, there's Oh, and then the
final one. So there isawareness, analysis,
(23:12):
accountability and action. Andthis is why I love Barbara love
liberatory consciousness model,because particularly in some of
the communities, I'm a part ofone of the patterns that can
show up in Jewish faces is apattern called scared active,
where there's fear and terrorand, and ancestrally proven best
practice for Jews over thecenturies has been, there's an
(23:34):
emergency. So we're gonna run,we're gonna go into urgency,
because over millennia, for manydifferent not all pockets of the
Jewish Diaspora, running andurgency was something that
helped people made thedifference between life and
death. Right. But in the contextof working on a deeply
(23:56):
entrenched adaptive challenge,and broad sweeping system of
oppression, like racialinjustice, urgency ain't
helpful. It can be helpful alittle bit to help move you in
action, but it is highlycounterproductive. And when
folks are conditioned orposition, you know, in terms of
(24:17):
their identity, with identitiesthat inherently if they don't
work on their stuff can harmother people. Action move
immediately moving into actionain't helpful. Right. And so
awesome to like to kind of jumpahead, in terms of going back to
the trauma piece, diving intoaction, you know, trauma
informed action, again, or doyou have licensure? Or have you
(24:43):
been Have you spent years ordecades have you been learning
from people here if you'retaking more decolonized
approach? Are you steeped inaccountability from multiple
angles through relationshipthrough ongoing training through
different systems and structuresthat ensure if you are going to
take the action and then areathat you know what you're
talking about here? Right, andit cannot be sustained. Hello
(25:05):
burnout and further traumapotentially. Yes. That's what
happens when people died intoaction. Thanks for that. Yes.
Oh, thank you for capturingthat. Yeah. Yes, Barbara, four
stages awareness, analysis,accountability, such commitment.
Action. Yes. Right. And so whatthat also means, and also about
action implies is aligned foranother aim for the when aligned
(25:27):
action action that is inalignment with not only your
awareness, with not only ouranalysis, but also
accountability. And now we areall positioned for
psychologically safe forintercultural greater, because
because there's a greateraccountability for to take
(25:49):
action in ways that are morelikely to be healing and
productive. And in service ofbipoc. And collective
liberation. Yes, right. And sothe paradigm operates a little
differently. But based off ofwhat that a phenomenally useful
(26:10):
and robust model that barberlove teaches that I use in any
number of different ways. And myconsulting and teaching is a
similar model.
around trauma, I would I woulduse similarly, some of this I
just put together today. So Imay edit this over time is like,
it may continue. But things arealways evolving, right? It's
always in draft, you know, thatfrom our movements, we continue
(26:32):
to learn to get better, but isawareness, same thing, trauma,
awareness, so when people makeso to be the baseline that I
know, I always know that whenpeople are saying that their
trauma informed that at the veryleast the trauma aware to some
extent or another, they knowthat trauma exists, and that
it's somewhere in the equation,right, versus having trauma
(26:53):
informed analysis or traumaanalysis. So they, which is a
huge body of work. So there'svarying degrees of that. Do they
have trauma analysis about theirown life, about the specific
populations they're workingwith? Do they know what trauma
that trauma analysis from blackfolks throughout in one specific
country and also throughout theAfrican diaspora? Do they have
(27:13):
trauma analysis for Jews? Towhat extent is that? Do they
have trauma analysis forpredominantly Ashkenazi Jews, or
also for Sephardic and Miss Rafiand Jews of color? Right to have
similar and also differenttrauma patterns, right, we have
analysis about the attitudes,the tails, and the specificity
both for individuals and thecollective. And again, tracking
(27:36):
useful but not universalpatterns, right. So like when
I'm working with clients, Ihave, I feel my sense is, and my
mentors have told me that I havea very strong trauma informed
trauma, trauma, agile analysisof UNbuilding to Agile analysis
overall. And I know as apractitioner, I have deep
knowledge from 10 years ofexperience, about different
(27:57):
identities that affect me, andones that I'm adjacent to. So
like, issues affecting women andalso men in the context of
oppression, gender nonconforming, and non binary,
folks, what are the ways thatmisogyny and sexism have
patterns of collective and intoindividual trauma and the lives
of people? Right, that'ssomething that I have some
(28:22):
meaningful trauma analysisaround and some of the patterns
that that that plays out, notingthat I could deepen my specific
analysis as a syst person, as asquare person around some of the
specificity of collective Iknow, some, I would say I have
some analysis, but I'm not atthe point of a deeper analysis
(28:44):
in terms of collective traumapatterns at the level of depth
that I have in other areasaround non binary and trans
folks, right, like I have asense of, and I have way more
than the average population, butdepth that I like to be aware
and work with, in the context ofmy private trauma healing work,
as well as in more non nontherapeutic work that I do with
(29:11):
my clients in the context ofgrowing and growing, where it's
at awareness and giving coachingpoints, but then referring
people to the specific traumahealing containers that they are
using in their lives to godeeper, right, anyway, I'm
getting off track here. But butthere's, there's gradations of
this. And it's something that wecan steadily build over time and
have both respect for what weknow. And also keep in mind and
(29:33):
track based on what's what'sbeing taught in different spaces
and also having a sense ofhumility, that there's a lot
more that we can know. So I havea sense of like indigenous
trauma and black trauma andJewish collective trauma and the
ways that that shows up ascollective patterns as well as
individual patterns that canplay out and when I'm working
with clients in different ways,and I'm building out my library
(29:55):
in terms of branding andgrowing. If someone say has
Muslim heritage, or Asianheritage right in part just
because as a full practitionerand recipient of trauma healing,
some of my learning comes fromthe education but also from
being an affinity spaces. So forme, when I, when I'm speaking
one on one about, you know,certain members of my community
(30:16):
joining my community, I mightsay to them, I ask them to give
me some additional insight, andthen I can help them, I can
identify for them and find anumber of phenomenal resources
that speak specifically to someof their people's patterns,
right. And I have a sense ofsome of the collective and like
going on rabbit hole here. Sosome sense of like collective
trauma in the context of, ofTurtle Island, and specifically,
(30:40):
America. In terms of the lastingimpact, right, some of the
wonderful teaching and analysisof Dr. Joy grew around the
ongoing impact and Dr. Joy togroose work around the US. And
the impact that slavery have isreally wonderful example of
someone who has an understandingat the level of trauma, agility,
(31:04):
post traumatic growth, andtrauma agility, and also has
woven in and is woven throughoutthat a deep understanding of
systemic oppression, that thosethings are operating multi
dimensionally are operatingsimultaneously, which is one
example of what I mean when I'mtalking about multi dimensional
analysis, then the last twostages that are talked to in
(31:25):
terms of trumping aboutdifferent levels of common form
would be Is this person apractitioner for themselves and
or with the clientele with whomthey work? Who works at the
level of post traumatic growth,which when I'm saying trauma
limited, they are not at thelevel of recognizing that people
were that was the right tools,and there's a diversity of them.
(31:48):
And there's some core thingsthat are involved, that, that
that can take shape in anynumber of different ways. But
that there are various tons nowof posts on social media, that,
that I can tell that that personwho's writing that either in
general, or in that moment aboutthat topic, because a number of
(32:09):
us know, our understanding. Andthe way our mind and our being
works is a bit like layers of anonion, I was recently reminded
by my friend and partner, Tracy,that in pleasure activism, a
metaphor is used by Otto Lordabout mixing margarine and some
of the yellow and leaving theyellow throughout the
(32:32):
shortening. When they needed tomake something that looks right.
Let me make margarine. And sosimilarly, our consciousness is
similar. So when I see this tobe clear, again, there's a lot
of nuance. And I want to beencouraging this more for
different folks in differentways. That when I look on social
media, when I see something, Ithink this is a trauma limited
post, if I repeatedly seesomeone post, like a specific
(32:55):
account posting this and I'd belike, like their trauma
awareness is at the level of isthat is, is is limited. There's
all this other stuff. Right?
Right. But in general, I justhave a one off thing. I wouldn't
necessarily ascribe traumalimited analysis to that person.
But I would say this post that Idon't have enough data, right.
But I would say this post is, isin a place of trauma limited
(33:17):
this mean that oh, there'strauma stop. You know, so like
another example, I was seeing apopular coach, and she was
saying, and she was having ainternal coaching, Congress
industry sort of conversation onher instagram about the nature
of pricing, and how and pricingtransparency or lack thereof.
(33:42):
And she said something abouthow, you know, well, people who
don't post their prices are nottrauma informed. And, and
there's like some lit, there'smight be some legitimacy to
that, but and she said a littlebit more. But it really bothered
me in that moment as someonewho, at times, has experienced a
number of forms of hardship assomeone who has a substantial
(34:07):
history of trauma, that in thatmoment, the way she said that
and I think in retrospect asI've reflected on it over the
past few months, I think shemight have also been talking
about herself. And there's a waywhere at times when people say
I'm just weary I'm wary to beother signs of a trauma limited
approach is when there's a senseof permanent disempowerment of
(34:31):
those who have been traumatizedwhich I do not subscribe to. I
think people can obviously betemporarily a mechanism that can
stem long term but it's not youknow, but that can can
experience disempowerment can bein a tender place need of care
but and there's also in in thisperson in this poachers. what
she was saying there was a senseto be a little bit of like
(34:52):
Savior ism like part of me alsowas reading that she was part
and part talking about, butmaybe I don't think exclusively
but the weigh at Red seems likeshe was sort of had like people
of color in her mind. And therewas a way where I felt like she
was talking for me and for otherpeople of color. And, and I just
felt like this is a quite theway to be thoughtful about us.
Like there was just ways whereit was used. I think you know
what I'm saying. But to me, theoverall thing was like Tama
(35:15):
limited. And actually, peoplewith immense trauma and varying
degrees of trauma, small troubleand big T trauma can be at any
point of, of accessibility toany number of things like that's
just not that's lesssophisticated understanding of
trauma. So trauma, awareness,trauma analysis, and then
getting into something that'skind of equivalent to
(35:37):
accountability and commitment ispost traumatic growth is, and
and so part of it is, is as apractitioner, is this person
aware that there is potentialfor post traumatic growth, and
is that reflected in whatthey're saying? That people can
go through horrific things overthe course of their lives, and
(35:57):
that with the rightinterventions, and with the
right supports, over time,through practice,
there can be immense healing, tothe point where it is profoundly
empowering, and not that it everjustifies the original harm, or
the thought that they can be ina much stronger and more
(36:17):
empowered place afterward, if anintervention usually in
community or qualified folks,which can be in a colonial
traditional sense, and also canbe in a decolonized sense, that
when people who have been indeep with a community are
collecting people who have beenin practice for decades,
(36:37):
collectively, around refiningtheir practice and what they're
doing right, and have othervarious forms of accountability.
But that's, there's a capacityfor growth, that something can
happen and that through thishealing, we can grow and not
only get through it, butactually be stronger and have
(36:58):
more insight. Right, but that istotally within the realm of
possibility for humans. Andfinally, the final stage of that
is agility. And to me whatagility implies here, several
other things, but it's anawareness of access, or
awareness of an ability toaccess all these other stages.
(37:20):
At any given moment,understanding having a sense of
what's needed. And for apractitioner agility implies, it
can apply a lot of differentthings, right? Like, I don't
want to be overly prescriptivehere. But it can imply a
capacity to help individuals orgroups of people responsibly
engage in individual andcollective healing. And part of
(37:43):
the agility is knowing in whatcircumstances or context that is
and isn't appropriate. And thenthere is an is isn't enough
infrastructure, andaccountability, and safety, and
all of the different things thatare necessary for there to be
the conditions for responsibleand protected and mindful
(38:06):
opportunities for healing.
Right. So there's like thelevels of awareness analysis,
post traumatic growth, andagility, so not so to me,
agility also implies a repeatingof the process and capacity,
again, until they're veryvariations of as an individual
that you're in a space where youhave resources, to know agility
to use is also implying, like asense of awareness that I don't
(38:30):
want to go through somethinghorrible, but I have now gone
through multiple, not just one,but multiple experiences of post
traumatic growth. And or as apractitioner, I have
successfully and responsibly ledpeople, multiple people, various
(38:52):
people in different contexts,through post traumatic growth.
And again, as I was namingbefore about the analysis, it
can be situational, right? Soyou'll hear different
practitioners at times, beingresponsible stewards of their
knowledge and their skill, and atime to say this is the
population these are the issues.
And these are the places inwhich as a practitioner, I am
(39:14):
trauma agile, you know, and theywill have integrity if someone
comes to them, which doesn'tdoesn't happen in different
spaces. To say, I have a lot ofknowledge, and I haven't
specifically worked with suchand such rate. And in some
cases, you really want to reallyneed some of that material. And
(39:35):
another case is because traumaand a number of ways has common
trends, whatever the specificsubject matter is, we are
there's some elements of traumahealing that can can take place.
So those are the four levels andjust to kind of my shorthand for
it, which I recognize, could inthe wrong context, be
misunderstood, or taken out andare used in a weaponized way
(39:56):
which is not how I need to useit, but what I see a trauma
informed and short term thingI'm looking to see is that are
they tunnel aware slash traumalimited? Or is this a space
where they are supportive of oraware of the capacity for post
traumatic growth, and, and orhave the tools to help
facilitate that. And evenbetter, if they are trauma
(40:20):
agile, it's not always theoffense to me. I'm also looking
at the number of the amount oftime or the level of experience,
right, like, you know, I look atand consider if someone has been
trained in this. So they mayhave some really solid
awareness, that analysis, but ifwe just wanted to use it to this
the depth and complexity thathuman chocolate human trauma can
(40:43):
take, it's hard for me toimagine that someone was like, a
really serious and you know,that, like, there's just,
there's certain bars that I'mlooking for. And some of that
may or may not matter, anddepending upon what they're
offering, and what they areguaranteeing, are they offering
actual trauma healing, which,depending if they're not
licensed and or created a reallypowerful container, Eek, and or,
(41:07):
you know, or are they doingsomething like that I'm doing
where I'm saying, I am traumainformed. And my space and my
programs are not therapeuticspaces. They're spaces in which
I can help you cultivateawareness, and analysis. And
they are spaces that are pro,post traumatic growth and pro
(41:27):
and, and they're Trump traumainformed, like agility, positive
spaces, enjoy asbestos land, butthey are spaces in which I say
right now, as the single ownerwith one additional staff
person, you don't have theinfrastructure right now. And
(41:47):
there's just a lot of additionalresourcing that we need in order
to have this be an explicitlytherapeutic space. So we're not
doing that. But at times whenI'm coaching people in a group
context or in one on onecoaching, one of my favorites is
when someone has actually atrauma healing community or
practitioner with whom they'reworking, usually therapist, and
I can give them withouteliciting the trauma too much I
(42:10):
can give them different thingsthat I know, from my counter
oppressive practice, to say,okay, in light of what you're
sharing your takes most, youknow, here are some exercises
that you can ask your therapistto do with you, since they're a
person who's tracking you moreclosely, and they know more of
the context than I have. Butbased upon what you're saying
(42:31):
here, and what I know about thefundamental ways that trauma
consistently operates for prettymuch all humans, here are some
places where you could do someof that deeper work. And here
are some ways where you canaccess that visceral experience
in a safe and licensed context.
And or for some folks, ifthey're in a responsible,
(42:52):
appropriate decolonizeconnected, you can use that you
can bring some of these promptsto that context, and they can
hold you in the actual traumahealing space. And then the
trauma healing that I do do thatI do practice, I practice within
the container of a network of aprivate network that I'm a part
(43:13):
of, and only in that context. Sothis has been on my test face
for a while now. Thank you fortuning in. There's obviously
many like there's various thingsthat I touched upon. There's a
lot more, but I wanted to tossthis out there since it's so
cool right now to always betalking about trauma informed
that not all these things arecreated equal. And we got to be
(43:37):
mindful consumers, and take noteof what actually we're reading
and what's the caliber of it.
And because at times, people aresaying, if I didn't really say
this, people are saying to cutoff ties with relationship.
There's ways where I see notexclusively, we're either see a
(43:58):
trauma, a traumatized mentalitybeing touted as trauma informed.
And there's a difference betweentraumatized and that's also a
variation of the trauma limitedand actual trauma informed and
telling people to do things thatin certain situations is
appropriate. But as a generalrule, just because you're
(44:18):
engaging in conflict withsomeone, there's ways to be
we're not exclusive, where, likesexism and white dominant
culture and white supremacistdelusion is like very subtly
weaving in. And it's it's, it'sencouraging people to isolate.
Right where whereas when I'velearned for people, nearly all
people who are trauma agileeducators, practitioners and
(44:41):
healers, because that we want tobe reaching for connection and
that at different points incertain extenuating
circumstances. Yeah, we need toset boundaries and over time as
we heal more in different ways.
Ideally, all people aredeserving and have the capacity
when we have the support orRamadan we've had time to heal
and I feel might be a decade.
(45:02):
I'm not saying this is aweekend, or it might be over a
long period of time, that wehave the power of choice to
reach for differentrelationships to rescript
different things that we haveimmense capacity and power. So
thank you everyone for joining.
If this is something whereyou're interested in getting
deeper support, or you wouldlike some trauma, agile coaching
(45:23):
and support, then feel free Ihave offerings right now to work
one on one or do an intensiveseries. I can't remember how to
do but I really do want to justcontact me at Joyce justice.com
and a contact form if, if you'reinterested in engaging with me,
but none of the specific offersare the right fit or you want to
(45:43):
collaborate. I'm really happy tocollaborate with kindred spirits
around this and much love and Ithink I want to end as someone
who's soon going to be ordainedas a Jewish priestess.
I'd like to enter the Kaaba nowa little bit of intention. And
(46:04):
say, may it be Divine oneness,his will, that increasingly over
time, all of us are able to gainaccess to empowering knowledge
and information that supportsus, and being aware that each of
us individually are always andunconditionally, deeply
(46:28):
deserving of love. And asmembers of societies and
communities that have hundredsand 1000s of years of collective
trauma, that nearly all of ushave different patterns of
allowing harm and or of causingharm. And it's my prayer and my
(46:52):
intention, that through the manywonderful, brilliant minds who
are sharing knowledge today,spiritually, professionally
interpersonally that we cancontinually know and viscerally
feel increasingly, that inherentgoodness that is within all of
us. And we can have increasingcourage and support, to hold
(47:17):
that inherent goodness, lookingat the layers of hurt, and get
support of hurt and harm, andget support around healing and
mending those different dynamicsin service of collective
liberation in service of ourjoin, and service of joyous
(47:39):
justice. Thank you. So I'mhoping to start showing up live
a lot more. I've been goingthrough a really intentional,
intense process, but really rootlevel trauma healing over the
past three years. And it's stillongoing, it's going to be
lifelong when I'm getting to theother side of the huge body of
work, and I'm going to beshowing up more have been
(48:02):
willing. So hopefully this willbe one of many more
opportunities for us to connect.
You're so very welcome. I'mreally glad this landed Well, I
thought about this a couplemonths ago. And then I was like
I want to nuance this well,because there's ways at times
that things can bemisunderstood. So I wanted to
give it time so that it wouldland in a way that was of
service to people, and not in away that induce shame, but
(48:25):
instead empowered us with moreknowledge and more resource to
advanced justice and our healingjoy. Thanks so much. We'll
collect again soon. Feel free tobe in touch.
April Baskin (48:45):
Thanks for tuning in. To learn more about joyous
justice LLC, our team and howyou can get involved with our
community. Check out the info inour show notes, or find us at
joyous justice.com If you enjoythis episode, show us some love.
Subscribe wherever you'relistening. Tell your people
share what you're learning andhow your leadership is evolving.
(49:07):
Stay humble, but not too humble.
And keep going because thefuture is ours to co create
When somebody says trauma informed, there's a
(00:03):
spectrum of what that means.
You're listening to the Joycejustice podcast, a weekly show
hosted by April Baskin withTracie Guy-Decker. in a complex
world in which systemicoppression conditions us to deny
(00:25):
others and our own humanity,let's dedicate ourselves to the
pursuit and embodiment ofwholeness, love and thriving in
the world. And in our own lives.
It's time to heal and flourishour way to a more joyously just
future.
Unknown (00:48):
I've started to notice and it started to like, agitate
me, which is interesting tonotice, because separate lesson,
but it's bringing up bigfeelings. So I can also explore
within myself, why is itagitating me, when I see people
talking about or inferring thatthey are trauma informed. And to
me, it basically falls simplysaying that on the surface
(01:10):
level, and we're going to getinto even more depth that when
people are saying traumainformed my sense at times, in
simpe, in broad strokes is thatpeople are talking about trauma
awareness. And, and from a placeof like, trauma limited. That
there is trauma, and thereforethen we need to stop. That's
(01:33):
That's it and or it comes up ina few other ways. Like, it can
be a need for deep care, whichin some ways can be very good.
At times, it can start to moveinto sort of coddling and
there's ways where I'm beingintersectional if you're the
simple version, and then there'smore to it is, to me, when
people say trauma informed Iplace it in two basic
(01:54):
categories. And then actually,there's more there's like four
levels of nuance of traumalimited, or trauma agile. And in
short trauma agile implies to meor I'm seeing demonstrations of
folks whose content is traumaagile, that it demonstrates that
(02:14):
none of this in and of itself isbad, per se. But depending upon
the way people are wielding orusing, how they are inferring
that they are trauma informedcan be irresponsible at times,
depending upon the context. Butit's there's nothing wrong with
different people being indifferent places of awareness or
understanding. It's what they dowith their positionality and how
(02:37):
they leverage that. Right. Butthere are ways that people who
are early and so basically, Iguess, part of the overall
headline of this is there's athere's a tremendous amount that
one can learn and based upon thelessons and teachings that I had
in 30 years of learning abouthealing, and specifically 10
(02:59):
years of learning, specificallycounter oppressive trauma,
healing, and learning fromelders in this work and a
counter oppressive internationaldecolonize or endeavoring to
continually decolonize communityand network of practitioners
(03:19):
that as humans, we have immensecapacity to heal, and to heal
from trauma. And there is a hugebelieve pervasive belief that
side note or not side note, isdeeply in support of keeping
internalized and collectiveoppression and locked in place,
(03:41):
and also is deeply in service ofkeeping systemic oppression in
place because it's deeply inservice of keeping people in a
place of disempowerment. Rightnow, obviously, there's huge
issues. I do not agree withmultiple brilliant leaders out
there who I don't disagree,excuse me, with multiple
brilliant leaders out there whoare saying, and I'm a part of
(04:02):
that call for there to begreater trauma informed mental
health services, and alsocommunal support, and there's
any number of way that traumacan be addressed. And there's a
plethora of ways that it can beaddressed. That's what the main
point of this talk today, what Iwant to talk about is this
trauma informed piece and kindof expand it out. Right? And so
(04:25):
at times when I see peoplesaying things, like, there's
just specific incidents that Ican think of, so I've seen
different examples in a numberof different spaces, where the
basically the kind of memo isthis person or I have trauma,
therefore, that whole area ofliving the whole of it times
like just intimaterelationships, family
(04:46):
connections, different.
Operating in different spaces isno longer available to me. And
what I would say is that theyare at the level of trauma
awareness that they have yet tolearn about the other layers.
errors. And so their postsconvey a template even meaning
to convey that like, Okay, wellwe're talking about trauma more
(05:07):
now. But but now that there'strauma here, there's nothing
that can be done, which is verydifferent than someone who might
post something similar. But interms of nuance and
sophistication and implication,it's is a vastly different
message, right? If someone mightpost something similar, like
this is a place around thehistory of trauma. So right now,
I'm going to see some of my lifeor I'm not engaging in these
different ways, right. And I'mby again, to be very clear here,
(05:29):
just briefly, I'm not talkingabout, for instance, perhaps
some extenuating circumstancewhere there's a specific person
or a particular place that isespecially bad, I'm talking
about a trend that hopefully anumber of you have also noticed.
Now, hopefully, but perhaps anumber of you have also noticed
of folks saying, Okay, there'strauma here and so we can't do
that, and there's the sense ofdisempowerment or, or just like
(05:52):
finality, and that is so not thecase, it would be as if like an
equivalent, which I'm going touse a model for liberatory, I'm
going to, in a moment, layersome of my understanding and
what I'm proposing, here's a wayof thinking about this about
trauma with Professor Barbara Jloves liberatory consciousness
(06:14):
model. And he's sort of like ifsomeone said, oh, there's, like,
I'm learning about theirs, whichis actually that actually
happens to a ton of people,someone has been teaching about
racial justice for 20 plus yearsof like, oh, there's racism. So
like, there's nothing else todo, as opposed to No, there is a
whole world of healing andmultiple steps that we can take
(06:35):
to empower and equip andresource ourselves and other
people. Okay, and again, talkingabout this kind of
simultaneously at some pointsmore than another, partially as
practitioners who bring a traumainformed lens for those of us
who do, and also as individualsthinking about how we are trauma
informed about the stories ofour lives, and how that has
(06:57):
different implications in ourleadership, which is what I
cover in much greater depth andspecificity in my group coaching
program grounded and growingamong a number of other pieces
that I think are necessary forthe caliber of multi dimensional
leadership that today'spreponderance of adaptive
challenges call upon us. And sothe other piece about this too,
(07:19):
is so that we have I talkedabout trauma limited a little
bit, and then let's juxtaposethat with trauma agile,
which, when it's done well or,or someone who seems from my
perspective, you know,classified as they have some
trauma, agility, as apractitioner, as someone who's
teaching or coaching or leading,which means they have an
(07:42):
understanding, a greater depthof understanding about travel,
and about people's capacity toheal, and about the reality that
folks may be anywhere on thathealing journey. But all people,
including people who haveexperienced trauma are
inherently brilliant, haveimmense capacity for growth, and
(08:02):
have immense capacity forpowerful leadership. And that in
their talking, and in theirdiscernment, and navigation. And
when they're teaching andleading, there is profound
empathy, and there is profoundunderstanding about various
sensitivities. And so they mayweave in if they're working with
any given population, either amultiracial group of people, or
(08:23):
if they're working with a monocultural or a mono racial group
of people. Let's say I wasworking with black folks, I
would be aware that in thatspace, because I'm informed
about and I guess, I guessthat's another layer of it,
which I'm not going to get intotoo much. Because the other
piece that I need to think aboutabout this we can get into is
when people are saying traumainformed. Are they talking about
(08:45):
it just on the individual level?
Or do they also have analysisabout collective trauma and
collective trauma patterns, thatwe don't want to get into
stereotypes, but that we can seethat there are useful but not
universal trends that variousgroups of people who have been
targeted for destruction andthose who have been positioned
in the dominant role have alsobeen a part of systems of
(09:07):
oppression and part of how whenI teach about oppression one on
one, which I've been consideringdoing a live here or like
putting out a call, I weighed intrauma informed, basic levels of
trauma informed and specificallytrauma agile insight into that
and so that we're not justtalking about systems of
(09:28):
oppression, but one of thethings I say very clearly which
I'll state right now, too, isthat in any system of
oppression, Cisco systems ofoppression run fundamentally on
dehumanization. And in anycontext, where anyone is
implicated in dehumanization,there is likely varying degrees
of subtlety to quite intenseindividual and collective trauma
(09:51):
involved for everyone. There'sobviously more trauma that the
targeted group sustained In whatan order, but when a group of
people have been positioned tobe in the dominant role,
particularly over generations,which is what generally how the
professionals and teachers andscholars from whom I've learned,
(10:13):
and and who molded me in theway, I've been teaching this for
20 years, that's how infundamentally we understand
trauma, because it's not onenegative moment or even several
years of negative experience ortargeting. It's, it's targeting.
Typically, although there can benew forms of oppression, God
(10:33):
forbid, but develop and so butthat happened over generations
of time over a sustained period,right, that hasn't qualify as a
systemic form of oppression,right? So these are things that
are happening over generations.
So I wasn't even planning ongetting into that. But that's
something that we could alsohave a whole separate
conversation about, and that inthe context of my group coaching
(10:56):
and Leadership Program groundedand growing, we take time to
specifically talk about that. Soyeah, so trauma Agile is ideally
soulmate when I say traumainformed and all my work I am
endeavoring to say and I wantthem to say explicitly here,
that when I'm talking abouttrauma informed, I'm talking
about as someone who as apractitioner, and in my own
(11:17):
living from up from my own 30Plus healing journey around
extensive trauma is traumaagile. So I wanted to this might
be a bit much for someone alsojuicy for others, so just hang
in, hang in there with me. Butso, okay, so basically, the
(11:38):
trauma limited, I would say iswhen people are so when
practitioners or individuals, interms of understanding trauma
are in more of the traumalimited, which doesn't
necessarily have to be bad.
Right, but but it there's just alimitation of what the trauma
informed means in their case.
And so as you're seeing postsfrom them, talking about what is
(12:01):
or isn't possible for peoplewith trauma, please notice, are
they coming from a traumalimited place or limited
awareness about about anylimited trauma, some significant
and meaningful trauma awareness,but also it has a limit? Right?
So if we look at Barbara, soBarbara loves liberatory
(12:21):
consciousness model talks aboutfour levels that we need to
establish some of y'all in thisspace are quite unfortunately,
aware of this. Okay, peoplepositioned as oppressors also
carry in US trauma. Yes, that'sexactly what I say. Yes. Being
trained in Domination is atraumatic experience. Yes, and
no child. Okay, fine. And Ithink, like maybe point 00 1%
(12:42):
But most human children whenthey are born, do not, do not
have a proclivity to oppresspeople. There's a sense we are a
social pact species that we wantto be connected and loving and
connected with people acrosslines of difference share
different things, right? Thatthat is something so when people
(13:05):
which most humans are frombirth, and even pre birth for
people, we're all humans, all ofyou. I'm getting up top there's
so much I can talk about. Butall humans are exposed fatally,
to oppression because unless youwere born in an incubator, all
people were born in bodies ofpeople with uteruses, and people
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with uteruses are highlyoppressed globally, in this
world. And as tech not Hanteaches about eating our food,
we're all deeply into humanexperience and energies are all
deeply interconnected. So ifwe're being honest and
realistic, and thinking moredeeply than white dominant
culture or white supremacy,culture has conditioned us to
(13:49):
think we would know that evenbefore we were born out, we're
living in the body of someonewho's been targeted by
depression. But guess exactlywhat you said. Your sister
yudishe Kate? Yes, yes, yes. Soin Barbara loves liberatory
leadership model, there are fourstages. There's awareness of
(14:11):
becoming aware of say racism, orany form of systemic oppression,
then and so And at times, interms of systemic oppression,
some people don't even get tothe level of awareness, right,
but awareness is key. And peopleat times think awareness is all
of this other stuff, sort oflike people think trauma
informed, or would automaticallyassume because one would think
(14:31):
that, that, that all of thesedifferent things are a part of
awareness, but awareness is justthe first. There's lots of
people say like in Americansociety, on Turtle Island, and
in many mainstream, still, likeheavily settler colonial
societies, which is most a lotof people don't even have an
awareness of or much awarenessof systemic oppression so that
(14:54):
it isn't all of these steps areimportant, systemic awareness
that the next natural step formost leaders and that's really
important to get deeper isanalysis, right. And the way
that barber loves speaks aboutanalysis is in a few different
ways in the ways that I wouldsort of add limited add to it is
to say that analysis, when westart to get into analysis, we
are integrating that awarenessand that additional increasing
(15:18):
endless knowledge, but a certainkey body of knowledge into the
details and texture of ourliving, and into the contexts
within which we operate. So howis this information relevant in
these different spaces? How isracial injustice, or systemic
racial inequity, or gender bias,or heteronormativity, or any of
(15:43):
the various forms of orfatphobia, or any of the various
forms of oppression, I canunderstand and start to
understand it exists? And how itshows up? And how people who
live in bodies of differenttargeted identities, what their
experiences, but analysis startsto get into both system wide and
also for a person? How does thatstart to shift and or add more
(16:07):
texture and depth to the storyof my life? How, how do I look
at people in my life who havethese different identities and
start to think about, again,patterns and sociological
realities that they were dealingwith that weren't a part of the
story I was telling about them.
Right. And obviously, you don'thave to do this entirely we can
(16:29):
do this is something that we cando over time. But that's what we
start to do when we get intoanalysis is thinking about the
different implications andmoving it through the fabric of
our living. And that's true,also, too, with starting to get
to a deeper layer of beingtrauma informed, right, so the
first layer of people, so to me,when I have now look at
(16:52):
something that says traumainformed unless I have other
markers where I know thatentity, my general defaults will
want us to check it out,honestly, and see, but if I'm
not seeing indicators that theyare trauma actual, or have more
sophistication, or little oraround trauma itself, as well as
if they've done any work aroundintegrating, which ideally it
(17:15):
should be, that's what how ithappens in the world,
integrating their understandingof systemic oppression with
trauma, informed analysis,right? So I'm looking for those
things that I can see. But Iknow that most things wherever
they are, they're talking aboutit to what extent another,
they're doing that because oftrauma aware, right. Just like
if somebody's talking about raceinitially, we can know that
(17:37):
their trauma that they'reracially aware, to a certain
extent, you have racialanalysis, I don't know, I need
to just read what they'rewriting and see how they're
showing up in the world, youknow, all of those different
pieces, right. And so then thenext stage after that, so in
Barbara loves model, there'sfour stages of liberatory
consciousness in general, whichis awareness analysis. And then
(18:00):
there's two different models, ofcourse, I've seen them flipped
for racial justice,specifically, I like to have it
in a particular order in lightof my 20 years of experience
working with differentinstitutions. So in my version
of it, it's awareness analysis,then accountability. And
accountability is a word thatcan scare folks who are target,
excuse me a non targetidentities and so the synonym or
(18:23):
word that I like it to get thepoint of accountability across
that doesn't feel as punitive iscommitment. So in a person's
living and also in the life ofan institution, in what ways are
their is their infrastructure,and systems in place to ensure
commitment to values aroundadvancing racial justice and
(18:47):
equity, inclusion and diversitywithin their institution? is
commitment. And accountability.
Right, and when things go wrong,how are we holding? How are we
holding each other? And thisprocess? How are we ensuring
that this continues? Someonewrote in the chat? Is trauma
responsive? And okay, term? Ithink it can be right, it's more
(19:09):
about like, okay, so I'm gonnabe the rest of your question. So
is trauma responsive enough? Theterm Sweden has no awareness
analysis? Shrimati. I hear you,okay, I'm tracking that, etc.
and trauma agile would be toocomplicated to even introduce
and passing. I think that thatmight be too complicated to
introduce. I mean, it may bethat in various cases, to be
(19:30):
honest with you, in the in theUS, too, okay. would be too
complicated to even introduce inpassing is my belief as one of
the admins Okay, so Shrimati, inmy Jewish tradition, at times
will say Shrimati, which means Ihear you, this is a great
question. So I think what whatI'm saying so what I'm saying
here, which is different thanwhat's being said, because at
(19:50):
times, don't use a certain term,I'm not saying what what I'm
trying to do is bring likepractitioner and consumer
awareness Write of like, whensomebody says trauma informed,
there's a spectrum of what thatmeans. And especially as someone
who feels especially protectiveof my peoples and people who are
adjacent to my peoples, so I amblack, indigenous and Jewish, I
(20:14):
remember of three differentpeoples who have been targeted
for destruction, which wouldalso, that's a separate thing.
Like I continue to work on mytrauma healing. And so I can get
in my feelings at times, as apractitioner, when I see people
marketing things that are traumainformed, say, like, trauma
healing, like, come to thissession about it to experience,
(20:35):
I can't, there was something Isaw once and I can't quite
remember what it was called, wasbasically like Jewish trauma
healing, and I don't think theymeant but it kind of implied
that the Jews attending thatcould heal their trauma, and it
was one hour long. Okay, so Imentioned before earlier in the
slide, but that I'm of thebelief from the people from whom
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I have learned this wisdom whohave been doing this work for
decades and helps peopleglobally, survivors of war,
physical violence, I mean, manydifferent things, loss, many
different things, that it isdeeply possible for most humans
to heal from most of theirtrauma, if given the right
resources. And over over time,through with the right resources
(21:19):
in the right practices, some ofwhich, when it's done in the
right, safe container arerelatively free, right, we as
humans, were born with all thedifferent tools we need to heal,
but we've been socialized.
Again, this is something that Iteach my program grounding and
growing, to stifle some of ourfoundational natural healing
mechanisms, and in mostsocieties, some of the ways that
(21:43):
people naturally heal is heavilystigmatized. So back to what
you're saying about traumaresponsive, so part of that
depends on the nature of whatyou're doing. So to me trauma
responsive, which means thatwe're that's kind of similar to
trauma agile, or maybe at leastat the level of having some
trauma analysis. So if you'redoing a program where, based
upon your knowledge andexperience, you have a capacity
(22:07):
to be responsibly, responsiblyresponsive to the population to
a person within, you know, whois within a given population of
as a diverse population orspecific population that has
specific individual andcollective patterns. Like, to me
that is, ideally what traumaresponsive implies. And
(22:28):
obviously, like, I'm not thearbiter of this, right, but but
that when I'm looking at thingslike that, as a consumer at
times, like I mostly have myneeds met through different
communities I'm a part of, but Ialso to also curious about what
people are doing, or at timesmight see something, and like,
oh, maybe that can also furtherhelp me on my ongoing trauma,
healing for myself, or help meas a practitioner, and I'm
(22:50):
looking to see different thingsthat indicate that are
indicators and how they'respeaking. You know, if they have
a laboratory, and robustsophisticated analysis, about
trauma and the ways that itintersects with systems of
oppression, in Barbara, thosemodel, there's Oh, and then the
final one. So there isawareness, analysis,
(23:12):
accountability and action. Andthis is why I love Barbara love
liberatory consciousness model,because particularly in some of
the communities, I'm a part ofone of the patterns that can
show up in Jewish faces is apattern called scared active,
where there's fear and terrorand, and ancestrally proven best
practice for Jews over thecenturies has been, there's an
(23:34):
emergency. So we're gonna run,we're gonna go into urgency,
because over millennia, for manydifferent not all pockets of the
Jewish Diaspora, running andurgency was something that
helped people made thedifference between life and
death. Right. But in the contextof working on a deeply
(23:56):
entrenched adaptive challenge,and broad sweeping system of
oppression, like racialinjustice, urgency ain't
helpful. It can be helpful alittle bit to help move you in
action, but it is highlycounterproductive. And when
folks are conditioned orposition, you know, in terms of
(24:17):
their identity, with identitiesthat inherently if they don't
work on their stuff can harmother people. Action move
immediately moving into actionain't helpful. Right. And so
awesome to like to kind of jumpahead, in terms of going back to
the trauma piece, diving intoaction, you know, trauma
informed action, again, or doyou have licensure? Or have you
(24:43):
been Have you spent years ordecades have you been learning
from people here if you'retaking more decolonized
approach? Are you steeped inaccountability from multiple
angles through relationshipthrough ongoing training through
different systems and structuresthat ensure if you are going to
take the action and then areathat you know what you're
talking about here? Right, andit cannot be sustained. Hello
(25:05):
burnout and further traumapotentially. Yes. That's what
happens when people died intoaction. Thanks for that. Yes.
Oh, thank you for capturingthat. Yeah. Yes, Barbara, four
stages awareness, analysis,accountability, such commitment.
Action. Yes. Right. And so whatthat also means, and also about
action implies is aligned foranother aim for the when aligned
(25:27):
action action that is inalignment with not only your
awareness, with not only ouranalysis, but also
accountability. And now we areall positioned for
psychologically safe forintercultural greater, because
because there's a greateraccountability for to take
(25:49):
action in ways that are morelikely to be healing and
productive. And in service ofbipoc. And collective
liberation. Yes, right. And sothe paradigm operates a little
differently. But based off ofwhat that a phenomenally useful
(26:10):
and robust model that barberlove teaches that I use in any
number of different ways. And myconsulting and teaching is a
similar model.
around trauma, I would I woulduse similarly, some of this I
just put together today. So Imay edit this over time is like,
it may continue. But things arealways evolving, right? It's
always in draft, you know, thatfrom our movements, we continue
(26:32):
to learn to get better, but isawareness, same thing, trauma,
awareness, so when people makeso to be the baseline that I
know, I always know that whenpeople are saying that their
trauma informed that at the veryleast the trauma aware to some
extent or another, they knowthat trauma exists, and that
it's somewhere in the equation,right, versus having trauma
(26:53):
informed analysis or traumaanalysis. So they, which is a
huge body of work. So there'svarying degrees of that. Do they
have trauma analysis about theirown life, about the specific
populations they're workingwith? Do they know what trauma
that trauma analysis from blackfolks throughout in one specific
country and also throughout theAfrican diaspora? Do they have
(27:13):
trauma analysis for Jews? Towhat extent is that? Do they
have trauma analysis forpredominantly Ashkenazi Jews, or
also for Sephardic and Miss Rafiand Jews of color? Right to have
similar and also differenttrauma patterns, right, we have
analysis about the attitudes,the tails, and the specificity
both for individuals and thecollective. And again, tracking
(27:36):
useful but not universalpatterns, right. So like when
I'm working with clients, Ihave, I feel my sense is, and my
mentors have told me that I havea very strong trauma informed
trauma, trauma, agile analysisof UNbuilding to Agile analysis
overall. And I know as apractitioner, I have deep
knowledge from 10 years ofexperience, about different
(27:57):
identities that affect me, andones that I'm adjacent to. So
like, issues affecting women andalso men in the context of
oppression, gender nonconforming, and non binary,
folks, what are the ways thatmisogyny and sexism have
patterns of collective and intoindividual trauma and the lives
of people? Right, that'ssomething that I have some
(28:22):
meaningful trauma analysisaround and some of the patterns
that that that plays out, notingthat I could deepen my specific
analysis as a syst person, as asquare person around some of the
specificity of collective Iknow, some, I would say I have
some analysis, but I'm not atthe point of a deeper analysis
(28:44):
in terms of collective traumapatterns at the level of depth
that I have in other areasaround non binary and trans
folks, right, like I have asense of, and I have way more
than the average population, butdepth that I like to be aware
and work with, in the context ofmy private trauma healing work,
as well as in more non nontherapeutic work that I do with
(29:11):
my clients in the context ofgrowing and growing, where it's
at awareness and giving coachingpoints, but then referring
people to the specific traumahealing containers that they are
using in their lives to godeeper, right, anyway, I'm
getting off track here. But butthere's, there's gradations of
this. And it's something that wecan steadily build over time and
have both respect for what weknow. And also keep in mind and
(29:33):
track based on what's what'sbeing taught in different spaces
and also having a sense ofhumility, that there's a lot
more that we can know. So I havea sense of like indigenous
trauma and black trauma andJewish collective trauma and the
ways that that shows up ascollective patterns as well as
individual patterns that canplay out and when I'm working
with clients in different ways,and I'm building out my library
(29:55):
in terms of branding andgrowing. If someone say has
Muslim heritage, or Asianheritage right in part just
because as a full practitionerand recipient of trauma healing,
some of my learning comes fromthe education but also from
being an affinity spaces. So forme, when I, when I'm speaking
one on one about, you know,certain members of my community
(30:16):
joining my community, I mightsay to them, I ask them to give
me some additional insight, andthen I can help them, I can
identify for them and find anumber of phenomenal resources
that speak specifically to someof their people's patterns,
right. And I have a sense ofsome of the collective and like
going on rabbit hole here. Sosome sense of like collective
trauma in the context of, ofTurtle Island, and specifically,
(30:40):
America. In terms of the lastingimpact, right, some of the
wonderful teaching and analysisof Dr. Joy grew around the
ongoing impact and Dr. Joy togroose work around the US. And
the impact that slavery have isreally wonderful example of
someone who has an understandingat the level of trauma, agility,
(31:04):
post traumatic growth, andtrauma agility, and also has
woven in and is woven throughoutthat a deep understanding of
systemic oppression, that thosethings are operating multi
dimensionally are operatingsimultaneously, which is one
example of what I mean when I'mtalking about multi dimensional
analysis, then the last twostages that are talked to in
(31:25):
terms of trumping aboutdifferent levels of common form
would be Is this person apractitioner for themselves and
or with the clientele with whomthey work? Who works at the
level of post traumatic growth,which when I'm saying trauma
limited, they are not at thelevel of recognizing that people
were that was the right tools,and there's a diversity of them.
(31:48):
And there's some core thingsthat are involved, that, that
that can take shape in anynumber of different ways. But
that there are various tons nowof posts on social media, that,
that I can tell that that personwho's writing that either in
general, or in that moment aboutthat topic, because a number of
(32:09):
us know, our understanding. Andthe way our mind and our being
works is a bit like layers of anonion, I was recently reminded
by my friend and partner, Tracy,that in pleasure activism, a
metaphor is used by Otto Lordabout mixing margarine and some
of the yellow and leaving theyellow throughout the
(32:32):
shortening. When they needed tomake something that looks right.
Let me make margarine. And sosimilarly, our consciousness is
similar. So when I see this tobe clear, again, there's a lot
of nuance. And I want to beencouraging this more for
different folks in differentways. That when I look on social
media, when I see something, Ithink this is a trauma limited
post, if I repeatedly seesomeone post, like a specific
(32:55):
account posting this and I'd belike, like their trauma
awareness is at the level of isthat is, is is limited. There's
all this other stuff. Right?
Right. But in general, I justhave a one off thing. I wouldn't
necessarily ascribe traumalimited analysis to that person.
But I would say this post that Idon't have enough data, right.
But I would say this post is, isin a place of trauma limited
(33:17):
this mean that oh, there'strauma stop. You know, so like
another example, I was seeing apopular coach, and she was
saying, and she was having ainternal coaching, Congress
industry sort of conversation onher instagram about the nature
of pricing, and how and pricingtransparency or lack thereof.
(33:42):
And she said something abouthow, you know, well, people who
don't post their prices are nottrauma informed. And, and
there's like some lit, there'smight be some legitimacy to
that, but and she said a littlebit more. But it really bothered
me in that moment as someonewho, at times, has experienced a
number of forms of hardship assomeone who has a substantial
(34:07):
history of trauma, that in thatmoment, the way she said that
and I think in retrospect asI've reflected on it over the
past few months, I think shemight have also been talking
about herself. And there's a waywhere at times when people say
I'm just weary I'm wary to beother signs of a trauma limited
approach is when there's a senseof permanent disempowerment of
(34:31):
those who have been traumatizedwhich I do not subscribe to. I
think people can obviously betemporarily a mechanism that can
stem long term but it's not youknow, but that can can
experience disempowerment can bein a tender place need of care
but and there's also in in thisperson in this poachers. what
she was saying there was a senseto be a little bit of like
(34:52):
Savior ism like part of me alsowas reading that she was part
and part talking about, butmaybe I don't think exclusively
but the weigh at Red seems likeshe was sort of had like people
of color in her mind. And therewas a way where I felt like she
was talking for me and for otherpeople of color. And, and I just
felt like this is a quite theway to be thoughtful about us.
Like there was just ways whereit was used. I think you know
what I'm saying. But to me, theoverall thing was like Tama
(35:15):
limited. And actually, peoplewith immense trauma and varying
degrees of trauma, small troubleand big T trauma can be at any
point of, of accessibility toany number of things like that's
just not that's lesssophisticated understanding of
trauma. So trauma, awareness,trauma analysis, and then
getting into something that'skind of equivalent to
(35:37):
accountability and commitment ispost traumatic growth is, and
and so part of it is, is as apractitioner, is this person
aware that there is potentialfor post traumatic growth, and
is that reflected in whatthey're saying? That people can
go through horrific things overthe course of their lives, and
(35:57):
that with the rightinterventions, and with the
right supports, over time,through practice,
there can be immense healing, tothe point where it is profoundly
empowering, and not that it everjustifies the original harm, or
the thought that they can be ina much stronger and more
(36:17):
empowered place afterward, if anintervention usually in
community or qualified folks,which can be in a colonial
traditional sense, and also canbe in a decolonized sense, that
when people who have been indeep with a community are
collecting people who have beenin practice for decades,
(36:37):
collectively, around refiningtheir practice and what they're
doing right, and have othervarious forms of accountability.
But that's, there's a capacityfor growth, that something can
happen and that through thishealing, we can grow and not
only get through it, butactually be stronger and have
(36:58):
more insight. Right, but that istotally within the realm of
possibility for humans. Andfinally, the final stage of that
is agility. And to me whatagility implies here, several
other things, but it's anawareness of access, or
awareness of an ability toaccess all these other stages.
(37:20):
At any given moment,understanding having a sense of
what's needed. And for apractitioner agility implies, it
can apply a lot of differentthings, right? Like, I don't
want to be overly prescriptivehere. But it can imply a
capacity to help individuals orgroups of people responsibly
engage in individual andcollective healing. And part of
(37:43):
the agility is knowing in whatcircumstances or context that is
and isn't appropriate. And thenthere is an is isn't enough
infrastructure, andaccountability, and safety, and
all of the different things thatare necessary for there to be
the conditions for responsibleand protected and mindful
(38:06):
opportunities for healing.
Right. So there's like thelevels of awareness analysis,
post traumatic growth, andagility, so not so to me,
agility also implies a repeatingof the process and capacity,
again, until they're veryvariations of as an individual
that you're in a space where youhave resources, to know agility
to use is also implying, like asense of awareness that I don't
(38:30):
want to go through somethinghorrible, but I have now gone
through multiple, not just one,but multiple experiences of post
traumatic growth. And or as apractitioner, I have
successfully and responsibly ledpeople, multiple people, various
(38:52):
people in different contexts,through post traumatic growth.
And again, as I was namingbefore about the analysis, it
can be situational, right? Soyou'll hear different
practitioners at times, beingresponsible stewards of their
knowledge and their skill, and atime to say this is the
population these are the issues.
And these are the places inwhich as a practitioner, I am
(39:14):
trauma agile, you know, and theywill have integrity if someone
comes to them, which doesn'tdoesn't happen in different
spaces. To say, I have a lot ofknowledge, and I haven't
specifically worked with suchand such rate. And in some
cases, you really want to reallyneed some of that material. And
(39:35):
another case is because traumaand a number of ways has common
trends, whatever the specificsubject matter is, we are
there's some elements of traumahealing that can can take place.
So those are the four levels andjust to kind of my shorthand for
it, which I recognize, could inthe wrong context, be
misunderstood, or taken out andare used in a weaponized way
(39:56):
which is not how I need to useit, but what I see a trauma
informed and short term thingI'm looking to see is that are
they tunnel aware slash traumalimited? Or is this a space
where they are supportive of oraware of the capacity for post
traumatic growth, and, and orhave the tools to help
facilitate that. And evenbetter, if they are trauma
(40:20):
agile, it's not always theoffense to me. I'm also looking
at the number of the amount oftime or the level of experience,
right, like, you know, I look atand consider if someone has been
trained in this. So they mayhave some really solid
awareness, that analysis, but ifwe just wanted to use it to this
the depth and complexity thathuman chocolate human trauma can
(40:43):
take, it's hard for me toimagine that someone was like, a
really serious and you know,that, like, there's just,
there's certain bars that I'mlooking for. And some of that
may or may not matter, anddepending upon what they're
offering, and what they areguaranteeing, are they offering
actual trauma healing, which,depending if they're not
licensed and or created a reallypowerful container, Eek, and or,
(41:07):
you know, or are they doingsomething like that I'm doing
where I'm saying, I am traumainformed. And my space and my
programs are not therapeuticspaces. They're spaces in which
I can help you cultivateawareness, and analysis. And
they are spaces that are pro,post traumatic growth and pro
(41:27):
and, and they're Trump traumainformed, like agility, positive
spaces, enjoy asbestos land, butthey are spaces in which I say
right now, as the single ownerwith one additional staff
person, you don't have theinfrastructure right now. And
(41:47):
there's just a lot of additionalresourcing that we need in order
to have this be an explicitlytherapeutic space. So we're not
doing that. But at times whenI'm coaching people in a group
context or in one on onecoaching, one of my favorites is
when someone has actually atrauma healing community or
practitioner with whom they'reworking, usually therapist, and
I can give them withouteliciting the trauma too much I
(42:10):
can give them different thingsthat I know, from my counter
oppressive practice, to say,okay, in light of what you're
sharing your takes most, youknow, here are some exercises
that you can ask your therapistto do with you, since they're a
person who's tracking you moreclosely, and they know more of
the context than I have. Butbased upon what you're saying
(42:31):
here, and what I know about thefundamental ways that trauma
consistently operates for prettymuch all humans, here are some
places where you could do someof that deeper work. And here
are some ways where you canaccess that visceral experience
in a safe and licensed context.
And or for some folks, ifthey're in a responsible,
(42:52):
appropriate decolonizeconnected, you can use that you
can bring some of these promptsto that context, and they can
hold you in the actual traumahealing space. And then the
trauma healing that I do do thatI do practice, I practice within
the container of a network of aprivate network that I'm a part
(43:13):
of, and only in that context. Sothis has been on my test face
for a while now. Thank you fortuning in. There's obviously
many like there's various thingsthat I touched upon. There's a
lot more, but I wanted to tossthis out there since it's so
cool right now to always betalking about trauma informed
that not all these things arecreated equal. And we got to be
(43:37):
mindful consumers, and take noteof what actually we're reading
and what's the caliber of it.
And because at times, people aresaying, if I didn't really say
this, people are saying to cutoff ties with relationship.
There's ways where I see notexclusively, we're either see a
(43:58):
trauma, a traumatized mentalitybeing touted as trauma informed.
And there's a difference betweentraumatized and that's also a
variation of the trauma limitedand actual trauma informed and
telling people to do things thatin certain situations is
appropriate. But as a generalrule, just because you're
(44:18):
engaging in conflict withsomeone, there's ways to be
we're not exclusive, where, likesexism and white dominant
culture and white supremacistdelusion is like very subtly
weaving in. And it's it's, it'sencouraging people to isolate.
Right where whereas when I'velearned for people, nearly all
people who are trauma agileeducators, practitioners and
(44:41):
healers, because that we want tobe reaching for connection and
that at different points incertain extenuating
circumstances. Yeah, we need toset boundaries and over time as
we heal more in different ways.
Ideally, all people aredeserving and have the capacity
when we have the support orRamadan we've had time to heal
and I feel might be a decade.
(45:02):
I'm not saying this is aweekend, or it might be over a
long period of time, that wehave the power of choice to
reach for differentrelationships to rescript
different things that we haveimmense capacity and power. So
thank you everyone for joining.
If this is something whereyou're interested in getting
deeper support, or you wouldlike some trauma, agile coaching
(45:23):
and support, then feel free Ihave offerings right now to work
one on one or do an intensiveseries. I can't remember how to
do but I really do want to justcontact me at Joyce justice.com
and a contact form if, if you'reinterested in engaging with me,
but none of the specific offersare the right fit or you want to
(45:43):
collaborate. I'm really happy tocollaborate with kindred spirits
around this and much love and Ithink I want to end as someone
who's soon going to be ordainedas a Jewish priestess.
I'd like to enter the Kaaba nowa little bit of intention. And
(46:04):
say, may it be Divine oneness,his will, that increasingly over
time, all of us are able to gainaccess to empowering knowledge
and information that supportsus, and being aware that each of
us individually are always andunconditionally, deeply
(46:28):
deserving of love. And asmembers of societies and
communities that have hundredsand 1000s of years of collective
trauma, that nearly all of ushave different patterns of
allowing harm and or of causingharm. And it's my prayer and my
(46:52):
intention, that through the manywonderful, brilliant minds who
are sharing knowledge today,spiritually, professionally
interpersonally that we cancontinually know and viscerally
feel increasingly, that inherentgoodness that is within all of
us. And we can have increasingcourage and support, to hold
(47:17):
that inherent goodness, lookingat the layers of hurt, and get
support of hurt and harm, andget support around healing and
mending those different dynamicsin service of collective
liberation in service of ourjoin, and service of joyous
(47:39):
justice. Thank you. So I'mhoping to start showing up live
a lot more. I've been goingthrough a really intentional,
intense process, but really rootlevel trauma healing over the
past three years. And it's stillongoing, it's going to be
lifelong when I'm getting to theother side of the huge body of
work, and I'm going to beshowing up more have been
(48:02):
willing. So hopefully this willbe one of many more
opportunities for us to connect.
You're so very welcome. I'mreally glad this landed Well, I
thought about this a couplemonths ago. And then I was like
I want to nuance this well,because there's ways at times
that things can bemisunderstood. So I wanted to
give it time so that it wouldland in a way that was of
service to people, and not in away that induce shame, but
(48:25):
instead empowered us with moreknowledge and more resource to
advanced justice and our healingjoy. Thanks so much. We'll
collect again soon. Feel free tobe in touch.
April Baskin (48:45):
Thanks for tuning in. To learn more about joyous
justice LLC, our team and howyou can get involved with our
community. Check out the info inour show notes, or find us at
joyous justice.com If you enjoythis episode, show us some love.
Subscribe wherever you'relistening. Tell your people
share what you're learning andhow your leadership is evolving.
(49:07):
Stay humble, but not too humble.
And keep going because thefuture is ours to co create
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