December 7, 2023 • 26 mins
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Join recently-ordained Kohenet April Nichole Baskin in a captivating examination and reconsideration of what often gets classified as "pragmatic" or "practical." April delves into the transformative power of mindfulness about language and advocates for a reframe, or at the least, thoughtful consideration of what we label as "pragmatic" and "practical." She asserts that visionary, strategic thinking and action that challenges conventional mindsets can, in fact, be some of the most pragmatic and practical thinking and actions we can employ.
This episode is a vibrant blend of personal anecdotes and visionary insights, culminating in a powerful call to, when necessary, intervene when brilliant insights and strategies are being shut down or ignored because they were (in)directly labeled as impractical. Instead, as allies and practitioners, we can bridge communication gaps and embrace and pilot innovative, effective, and joyously just strategies.
Key Takeaways:
- Redefining Pragmatism: Understand how pragmatic thinking is often misinterpreted, and learn to distinguish it from default or fear-based thought patterns.
- Challenges of a Visionary Woman of Color: Hear April's experiences and the distinct challenges she's faced in promoting forward-thinking ideas in organizational settings.
- The Limiting Power of Language: Explore how language can both confine and liberate our thinking, impacting our ability to embrace innovative strategies.
- The Visionary's Approach: Learn the importance of transcending conventional thinking to adopt more visionary and intentional actions.
- Joyous Justice – Pragmatism Meets Vision: Discover how Joyous Justice programming blends practicality with strategic and visionary thinking.
- Strategic Thinking vs. Practicality: Understand why it's crucial to prioritize strategic thinking over mere practicality, especially when exploring new possibilities.
- Bridging Understanding Gaps: Emphasize the need for improved communication and collaboration to effectively bridge gaps in understanding.
Discussion and reflection questions:
- What in this episode is new for you? What have you learned and how does it land?
- What is resonating? What is sticking with you and why?
- What, if anything feels hard? What is challenging or on the edge for you?
- If relevant. what feelings and sensations are arising as you reflect on themes from this episode, and where in your body do you feel them?
- What key insights or strategies are you carrying forward and how do you want to weave them into your living and/or leadership?
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
April (00:03):
You're listening to the joyous justice podcast.
A weekly show hosted by AprilBaskin with Tracy Guy Decker.
In a complex world in whichsystemic oppression conditions
us to deny others and our ownhumanity, let's dedicate
ourselves to the pursuit andembodiment of wholeness, love,
and thriving in the world and inour own lives.
(00:24):
It's time to heal and flourishour way to a more joyously, just
future.
Hi, shalom, salaam alaikumfriend, it is Kohenet, y'all
ready for this?
(00:47):
Kohenet, April Nichole Baskinjoining you for finally an
overdue next installment of theJoyous Justice Podcast on the
other side.
I always love getting on theother side, but Really though,
for real y'all, on the otherside of lots of learning and
growth and evolution andintercontinental relocation and
(01:12):
a lot's been happening.
Oh my goodness.
Oh, what a heartbreakingunderstatement.
Since I was last with you, I'mpretty sure we've entered a new
Jewish year, 5784.
And now we are currently, as I'mrecording this and as people who
are listening to this when itcomes out live, um, if you catch
(01:34):
it later, still great, stillrelevant, especially given the
topic.
It is a ongoingly relevanttopic, but in this precise
moment that I am recording thisand you will likely hear this,
we have entered the month ofKislev, a month of darkness and
stillness and light within thedarkness and miracles and hope
(01:56):
and fried food and togethernessand connection.
So I feel like I've landed alittle bit.
Also, for those who are joiningon YouTube, most of our, the
vast majority of our listenerslisten, via the various
podcasts, and there's like atried and true cohort of YouTube
(02:20):
viewers.
Shout out to you.
And those of you who arecatching the video will notice
that a rainbow, or maybe like acouple, like a double rainbow,
has opted to join us on thisvideo.
And it's funny because as I wasrunning tests and getting ready
for this, that rainbow wasn'tthere, but it decided to join
for this recording.
And, uh, And how beautiful isthat in the context of the fact
(02:50):
that in the month of October ofthis Gregorian year of 2023,
many of us have been pained, um,deeply pained by the war
happening, in Israel Palestineor the Israel Hamas War.
(03:15):
Oh, and so I love this rainbowhere.
Oh, it looks like I could turnit to make it go away.
But do we want to do that?
I don't know.
Oh, it's still there.
It still wants to be here.
Along with some dust.
Okay, so Shall we dive into thesubject at hand that I'm looking
(03:36):
to discuss today?
There are lots of thingshappening in the world, but
here's what I want to talk abouttoday that is relevant in terms
of what's happening in the worldand is relevant in lots of ways.
I'm curious.
I could, so I could frame thisas a question, I could frame
this as a tip, I could make, Icould, uh, relay it as a kvetch,
(03:59):
as a complaint, which is myleast favorite way.
Here's what I'll say.
I think I'll start with anassertion and maybe move to a
question.
We'll see.
I think, not always, But moreoften than people seem to be
aware of, that pragmatism andpracticality are lifting up.
(04:21):
And to be very clear here, I amsuper pro pragmatic action and
practical thinking and action.
And frequently, or notfrequently, but often, more
often than I think is flaggedand people are aware of, I think
that default, fearful, and ordefeated, thinking gets labeled
(04:46):
as pragmatic or practicalthinking.
I'm curious how that's landingwith you, if that is a spicy
take for you, if that is like,yeah, April, are you just
realizing this?
No, I'm not just realizing it.
Or, or if you're like, huh, I'mnot sure.
(05:08):
Okay, so either way, please staytuned.
Here's what I've noticed abouthow it shows up for me and my
living and leadership.
And I frequently, I most noticethis dynamic in the context of
my work with Joyous Justice andmore so in the context of my
social change leadership withinorganizations.
And I'm curious how people withdifferent identities experience
(05:30):
this, but as a cis woman ofcolor, uh, lowercase Q queer
lives a pretty heteronormativelifestyle though.
Um, what I have noticedthroughout my career is that
when I share visionary and orintentional thoughts.
(05:54):
Okay.
And to me, visionary orintentional thoughts.
Yeah.
I think I wanted to add in likea mini lesson within this
broader teaching and sharing inthis podcast episode, to me,
what that means.
Getting into some of like themechanics or the ingredients of
that is that from my perspectivethat means that I am anchored in
(06:14):
acceptance of the facts and alsoengaging in aspiration around
What is possible or what we needto be working for and basing
that on the current realities,but also not in my aspirations
being limited by them.
Right?
So the way I like to think of itis like rock climbing or
(06:35):
something.
So I'm on the mountain, right?
I'm noticing where there arecrags and crevices and different
places and where the, where themountain slope is incredibly
steep.
Right.
And like, at a 90 degree angle.
Right.
And then there are also rocksand different things happening
(06:56):
and I'm not like floating off ofthe mountain, right?
I'm anchored.
I'm connected to the mountainand saying, I still want to get
to the top of the mountain.
And the slope is difficult.
And I think it's possible.
And here's how I think we cannavigate it.
And repeatedly throughout mycareer when I present different
(07:17):
ideas.
Now with the mountain example,that's That's more about what
I'm trying to connect, use thatmetaphor or analogy or simile.
I'm far away from those SATtests.
What I'm trying to share withthat example is, or convey with
(07:37):
that example is the acceptancepiece, right?
That I'm connected with themountain and I'm still climbing
it.
Now, how that's different ordoesn't quite work fully in the
broader sense of what I'm sayingis that.
Um, in the, in that scenario ofme scaling the mountain, it's.
Obvious, because you're in themiddle of the mountain, that you
(07:59):
need to scale it, right?
Whereas in organizational life,in life in general, people might
be on the side of the mountain,and the terrain is complicated,
and their practical perspectiveis it's not possible to go any
higher, right?
But now with that example Again,with the mountain, it's more
obvious that you need to climbthe mountain, but in day to day
(08:21):
life in the context of systemicoppression and various dynamics
or entrenched challenges, it maynot be as obvious to people and
perhaps to people with variousprivileged identities that it's
obviously important to takeassertive, strategic, visionary,
(08:43):
intentional action up thatmountain.
So going back to my career andpart of where this is coming out
of is I've noticed a pattern.
And so I stated my, thespecific, some of the specific
markers of my sociologicalidentity here in my current
physical form on planet Earth.
(09:03):
Because..
I've experienced a dynamicthroughout my career, especially
when I was working within otherorganizations and in senior or C
suite executive.
Senior executive roles that whenI would share visionary
thinking, intentional, strategicthinking and plans anchored in
(09:24):
awareness of what is currentlyhappening and assessing
different possibilities andreaching for a more visionary,
intentional outcome or positionfor a program, for a department,
for an organization, for amovement frequently Almost like
clockwork, I would hear, notalways, but like 95 percent of
(09:48):
the time from white presenting,cis het presenting men., I would
often hear, they would say,"Where's the practical pieces of
this?" You know, I'm a morepragmatic thinker," but that's
come up in meetings, a formerexecutive director who I adore,
(10:10):
who I worked with, he wouldoften say, he would kind of
squint his eyes as I was talkingand I've come to realize in
years since I understand morenow what was happening in that
situation.
And then later in, and he was,and I want to give that leader
credit.
I think I'm speaking vaguelyenough that most people wouldn't
know who I'm referring to, but,because he would try, and this
(10:33):
is earlier in my career, hewould try to understand, he
would try to bridge thatdifference.
But I often found more recentlywhen I was working with lay
leaders who tended to be boomerage, although I also have
experienced this also with Gen Xmen too, boomer age, and
(10:56):
sometimes they're also gay men,so white cis men, often but not
always boomers, that they wouldtell me, they would regularly
say, well, we need a pragmaticsolution here, or practical
solution here, and I would oftenfeel very confused, and I didn't
(11:16):
fully, like, I would try tonavigate it as best I could, but
in retrospect, here's what I'vecome to realize, is that I think
that their language wasinaccurate, not intentionally
so.
I think that pretty much all ofthe individuals I'm speaking of
here were definitely doing thebest with the knowledge and
understanding that they had atthat time, as I think most
(11:39):
people are most days in general,right?
I think that their language isnot intentionally but if they
were speaking more accuratelybased upon my perspective and
perception of things, what theywould be saying is,"April, you
are talking about something thatcontradicts my beliefs about
what is possible." And or"Idon't know how you would do
(12:05):
that." Or,"I hear how you'resaying you would do that.
But that pushes me beyond what Ifeel comfortable doing." Or
here's another way of thinkingabout it or saying it.
Is that basically what I'mtrying to say several different
points here, one of them is thatI think often frequently in
(12:26):
those kinds of dynamics wherethere is in my case, but I'm
sure it also happens at times tomen too.
But in my lived experience, it'sbeen me as a cis woman and woman
of color, is that I sharestrategic visionary ideas and
leadership.
And from my perspective, yeah.
The vast majority of my work ishighly pragmatic and practical
(12:48):
and also has a visionary edge.
So it's often piloting thingsare iterative and pushing the
limits of what we think ispossible because frequently the
challenges that we have.
We can't, the, the enduring andadaptive challenges we're facing
can't be resolved by oldstrategies.
(13:09):
But for some reason, people keepdefaulting to old strategies.
And so I'm often bringing in newideas.
Let's bring this new fellowshipin that invests in leaders in a
different sort of way and has adifferent kind of structure.
Let's create a program thattakes a few steps back and helps
(13:30):
people clarify theirunderstanding around certain
things so that we can positionthem for long term success and
then steadily raise the bararound what is possible for each
participant in this programindividually as well as
collectively.
Let's test it and see, let's seewhere people's interests are.
Let's do some organizing.
Let's weave in some one on onedata collection and let's raise
(13:56):
the bar.
Right now I might be saying thisin a very institutionalized
context where organizing isn't apart of the structure and the
makeup and flow.
Of the work, right?
And often people will say thingswhen I say things like this,
where I'm laying out a planabout next steps and what we
should be doing.
And if it's outside of people'scomfort zone, and if it's
(14:16):
different than their defaultthinking and the neural pathways
that they have established, Ifind that frequently they
indirectly label what I'm doingas"impractical" or"not
pragmatic" when I would view itas, visionary and intentional
(14:41):
and moving outside of defaultthinking and operating and
agitational, generativelyVisionarily, intentionally,
lovingly, creatively,agitational to the modes of how
we do things, but usually verypragmatic, but often since it's
(15:07):
outside of those individuals,and this might not even be most
people, but it's often people inkey decision making and
leadership roles, it's outsideof what they think Is possible
it's outside of their existingbelief system.
So, therefore, they deem it'simpossible, even though it's
totally within the realm ofpossibility.
And I might even be citing othersources of contexts or spaces or
(15:28):
places where these tools usuallyin places that have less
resource.
in certain ways and in certainrespects, that these actions or,
different dynamics are possible.
And there's just so much therethat I'm thinking about that I
don't know that I can follow allthe threads.
To me, as I'm saying that rightnow, I'm thinking about, I think
(15:50):
it brings up issues of trust andthe level of trust these
individuals have in me, whichinterestingly, you know, like
some of the sociologicaldynamics come back in general.
And I think that they might haveissues trusting people who share
their identity, although maybe alittle bit less so or more so
because, you know, maybe they'dhave less issues because I might
be speaking through a culturalparadigm and framework that is
(16:15):
familiar to them, right?
So that's also another part ofit, too, that leads them
thinking it's impractical isjust from go, energetically,
linguistically, even though Iwas raised in similar white
supremacist institutions ofhigher education, I still have
(16:36):
retained and specifically workedover time and more so since
those meetings I'm referring to,to engage in Afro Indigenous
coming home work to have adifferent relationship with time
and different orientations tocertain values and aspects that
I think they feel the frictionor reverb of.
(16:57):
I mean, I'm embodying it from aplace of joy, but it's bumping
up against, against differentconstraints that they may have
in certain ways.
And so, I think there's a lotmore to say about this.
But I just want to say to you,if you have been thinking,"Oh, I
(17:18):
don't know if and when I'm goingto do Joyous Justice
programming, you know, I needcoaching and support, but I need
it around more pragmatic issues.
I want you to hear me loud andclear that the work that we do
enjoy as justice is incrediblypragmatic.
What it is not is default.
(17:40):
What it is not is typical.
What it is not is the same oldstuff that often people go back
to that still doesn't get themthe results they want.
What it is is highly efficient.
And profound and mindful of yourtime and the constraints you're
navigating.
And right now, in some ways, I'mspecifically speaking to my
(18:03):
style overall and specificallythe content.
of our Grounded Growing programand the S.H.E.M.A.
System and different S.H.E.M.A.
Processes.
They are designed, and it's sofunny, I'd like to talk about
this frequently lately, that anumber of participants in the
program, when they come in,they're initially asking for a
(18:23):
syllabus, or what they shoulddo.
Steadily, I help them acclimateto Your life and your desires
are the syllabus.
You can work through theS.H.E.M.A.
Process in order.
You can do it in reverse.
You can look at the overview ofthe S.H.E.M.A.
Process and skip ahead to the Msection.
It's here to be in service ofyou.
Right?
So again, so that's like adifferent way of thinking about
(18:46):
things, right?
That rather than us being inservice of institutions and
structures and systems and waysof thinking, that it's
worthwhile to find ways ofthinking and cultivating
communities and structures andsystems that deeply are in
service of us and our needs andthe real time dynamics we have.
(19:08):
So, yes, is the programvisionary?
And is the coaching anddifferent offerings and
education that Joyous Justiceoffers, is it visionary?
Is it intentional?
Is it highly strategic?
Yes, it is.
And I've taken years of refiningprofessionally, spiritually,
intellectually, and embodiedways, insights and principles,
(19:32):
identifying principles acrosstime and space, different
contexts, different identitiesthat consistently make a
difference in helping people toregain access to their own
agency.
Personal power and choice,right, as Dr.
Viktor Frankl taught us, wealways have the power of choice,
but because of internalizedoppression, because of systemic
(19:55):
oppression, because of variousdynamics, patterns that we have
ingrained, early defeats that wehad when we were young that got
really imprinted, there are alot of different ways in our
lives where mostly notconsciously, but even
consciously sometimes, we thinkwe don't have choice.
And I would say that I thinkit's perhaps visionary, but also
(20:18):
super practical and pragmatic tohelp individuals in steady, bite
size, accessible, not timeconsuming ways to steadily
regain greater access to theircapacity to make decisive,
intentional, aligned, attunedchoices.
(20:39):
That align with your needs, yourvalues and your highest visions
of what's possible and whatS.H.E.M.A.
does is help bridge the gap andsupports people and healing
present and core wounds andclearing space and engaging in
different, practical, on a dailyand or weekly basis, sprinkling
(21:02):
it in greater self care, greaterconnection to affinity spaces
and opportunities forsolidarity.
Seed watering to engage.
I love the metaphor that TichNhat Hanh uses from Buddhism of
seed watering, right?
All the best attributes and allthe best attributes or middot,
(21:24):
right?
And also all the worst, as heteaches, are part of our store
consciousness.
And so there are ways thataren't radical, but are highly
pragmatic and practical that wecan steadily intentionally water
the seeds of the desires andattributes that we want in our
life and do so in a way thatover time helps us to gain
(21:49):
greater clarity, to accesshealing, to empty our energetic
and emotional cups.
Proverbial or metaphorical cups,right?
To fill this, the, can we talkabout it before?
Fill the self care cup and emptythe excess energy cup so that we
have more agility and moreagency to very practically and
(22:12):
pragmatically in ways that arevisionary and strategic move
forward our highest visionsabout what's possible for our
relationships, for ourselves,for our lives, for our
organizations, for ourinstitutions, for our society,
and our world.
(22:34):
So I invite you to notice whenthe phrases practical and
pragmatic are used insupportive, generative, helpful
ways, and when with you or withAnother leading edge maverick
leader visionary who has a trackrecord of success in their
(22:57):
career isn't, you know, isn'tfull of offering up pipe dreams
and things that don't getanywhere.
I invite you to be wary andconscious in relationship and in
meetings and board meetings,especially if you're a lay
leader or you're a, you know, ifyou're in a position, a senior
executive staff member, ifyou're in a position of power,
(23:19):
and now in your life for yourown advocacy.
If you're not in one of thosestrategic positions, but you're
in other places of influence andpower, in in other forms,
including over yourself, whichso many of us, including myself
can continue to reclaim thatpower to catch at times if when
(23:46):
someone mentions or reframessomething or says,"Oh, let me
actually bring this back to thepractical..." Is attention being
diverted away from visionary,intentional, strategic thinking?
And in that moment, Is it, infact, is there actually a need,
not so much for pragmaticthinking, because also I think a
(24:08):
piece of it is about potentialfear of humiliation and people
being afraid to say,"I don'tunderstand that," or"from how
I've been living my life--" Idon't know if they would say it
that way-- I see you're veryclear about this, but it's not
clear for me at all." Right?
And so notice that as a moment,either in that precise moment,
or you may need to go back anddebrief with team members and
say,"I hear you.
(24:29):
I also don't fully get you, butI think we need to make a bridge
for some of these other leaders,a cognitive bridge to help them
understand.
And, be more likely to get onboard or to get on board with
what you're saying, becausethey're talking, they're saying
the words practical andpragmatic, but I actually think
that it's just beyond theirconscious, their, their mind's
(24:52):
limitations of what they believeto be possible." So, more to
come on this.
I hope this felt useful,affirming, or divinely
agitational, and it's reallygood to be back in touch.
I continue to have a desire for,a two way street here.
(25:14):
So if you have other, ideas orquestions about what I've said,
feel free to comment on theYouTube page or as I post
elements of this on socialmedia, or you can email me at
info at joyousjustice.
com.
If you have follow up questionsor want to share ideas, I'd love
for this to be an ongoingdialogue.
And perhaps, I think again,there's a lot more to say about
(25:39):
this, so, or specific facets ofwhat I said where I could dive
in deeper.
So if there's specific areasthat you'd like me to prioritize
in that, please let me know.
And it's really great to beconnected and getting to dance a
little bit in your eardrum withyou right now, intellectually
and spiritually.
And I'm so appreciative for yourattention.
(26:02):
And, it is my prayer and desirethat this episode was useful for
you.
And I look forward to more inthe meantime, much love and take
good care.
Thanks for tuning in to learn more about joyous justice,
LLC, our team, and how you canget involved with our community.
(26:24):
Check out the info in our shownotes or find us at
joyousjustice.
com.
If you enjoyed this episode,show us some love subscribe
wherever you're listening.
Tell your people, share whatyou're learning and how your
leadership is evolving.
Stay humble, but not too humbleand keep going because the
future is ours to co create.
You're listening to the joyous justice podcast.
A weekly show hosted by AprilBaskin with Tracy Guy Decker.
In a complex world in whichsystemic oppression conditions
us to deny others and our ownhumanity, let's dedicate
ourselves to the pursuit andembodiment of wholeness, love,
and thriving in the world and inour own lives.
(00:24):
It's time to heal and flourishour way to a more joyously, just
future.
Hi, shalom, salaam alaikumfriend, it is Kohenet, y'all
ready for this?
(00:47):
Kohenet, April Nichole Baskinjoining you for finally an
overdue next installment of theJoyous Justice Podcast on the
other side.
I always love getting on theother side, but Really though,
for real y'all, on the otherside of lots of learning and
growth and evolution andintercontinental relocation and
(01:12):
a lot's been happening.
Oh my goodness.
Oh, what a heartbreakingunderstatement.
Since I was last with you, I'mpretty sure we've entered a new
Jewish year, 5784.
And now we are currently, as I'mrecording this and as people who
are listening to this when itcomes out live, um, if you catch
(01:34):
it later, still great, stillrelevant, especially given the
topic.
It is a ongoingly relevanttopic, but in this precise
moment that I am recording thisand you will likely hear this,
we have entered the month ofKislev, a month of darkness and
stillness and light within thedarkness and miracles and hope
(01:56):
and fried food and togethernessand connection.
So I feel like I've landed alittle bit.
Also, for those who are joiningon YouTube, most of our, the
vast majority of our listenerslisten, via the various
podcasts, and there's like atried and true cohort of YouTube
(02:20):
viewers.
Shout out to you.
And those of you who arecatching the video will notice
that a rainbow, or maybe like acouple, like a double rainbow,
has opted to join us on thisvideo.
And it's funny because as I wasrunning tests and getting ready
for this, that rainbow wasn'tthere, but it decided to join
for this recording.
And, uh, And how beautiful isthat in the context of the fact
(02:50):
that in the month of October ofthis Gregorian year of 2023,
many of us have been pained, um,deeply pained by the war
happening, in Israel Palestineor the Israel Hamas War.
(03:15):
Oh, and so I love this rainbowhere.
Oh, it looks like I could turnit to make it go away.
But do we want to do that?
I don't know.
Oh, it's still there.
It still wants to be here.
Along with some dust.
Okay, so Shall we dive into thesubject at hand that I'm looking
(03:36):
to discuss today?
There are lots of thingshappening in the world, but
here's what I want to talk abouttoday that is relevant in terms
of what's happening in the worldand is relevant in lots of ways.
I'm curious.
I could, so I could frame thisas a question, I could frame
this as a tip, I could make, Icould, uh, relay it as a kvetch,
(03:59):
as a complaint, which is myleast favorite way.
Here's what I'll say.
I think I'll start with anassertion and maybe move to a
question.
We'll see.
I think, not always, But moreoften than people seem to be
aware of, that pragmatism andpracticality are lifting up.
(04:21):
And to be very clear here, I amsuper pro pragmatic action and
practical thinking and action.
And frequently, or notfrequently, but often, more
often than I think is flaggedand people are aware of, I think
that default, fearful, and ordefeated, thinking gets labeled
(04:46):
as pragmatic or practicalthinking.
I'm curious how that's landingwith you, if that is a spicy
take for you, if that is like,yeah, April, are you just
realizing this?
No, I'm not just realizing it.
Or, or if you're like, huh, I'mnot sure.
(05:08):
Okay, so either way, please staytuned.
Here's what I've noticed abouthow it shows up for me and my
living and leadership.
And I frequently, I most noticethis dynamic in the context of
my work with Joyous Justice andmore so in the context of my
social change leadership withinorganizations.
And I'm curious how people withdifferent identities experience
(05:30):
this, but as a cis woman ofcolor, uh, lowercase Q queer
lives a pretty heteronormativelifestyle though.
Um, what I have noticedthroughout my career is that
when I share visionary and orintentional thoughts.
(05:54):
Okay.
And to me, visionary orintentional thoughts.
Yeah.
I think I wanted to add in likea mini lesson within this
broader teaching and sharing inthis podcast episode, to me,
what that means.
Getting into some of like themechanics or the ingredients of
that is that from my perspectivethat means that I am anchored in
(06:14):
acceptance of the facts and alsoengaging in aspiration around
What is possible or what we needto be working for and basing
that on the current realities,but also not in my aspirations
being limited by them.
Right?
So the way I like to think of itis like rock climbing or
(06:35):
something.
So I'm on the mountain, right?
I'm noticing where there arecrags and crevices and different
places and where the, where themountain slope is incredibly
steep.
Right.
And like, at a 90 degree angle.
Right.
And then there are also rocksand different things happening
(06:56):
and I'm not like floating off ofthe mountain, right?
I'm anchored.
I'm connected to the mountainand saying, I still want to get
to the top of the mountain.
And the slope is difficult.
And I think it's possible.
And here's how I think we cannavigate it.
And repeatedly throughout mycareer when I present different
(07:17):
ideas.
Now with the mountain example,that's That's more about what
I'm trying to connect, use thatmetaphor or analogy or simile.
I'm far away from those SATtests.
What I'm trying to share withthat example is, or convey with
(07:37):
that example is the acceptancepiece, right?
That I'm connected with themountain and I'm still climbing
it.
Now, how that's different ordoesn't quite work fully in the
broader sense of what I'm sayingis that.
Um, in the, in that scenario ofme scaling the mountain, it's.
Obvious, because you're in themiddle of the mountain, that you
(07:59):
need to scale it, right?
Whereas in organizational life,in life in general, people might
be on the side of the mountain,and the terrain is complicated,
and their practical perspectiveis it's not possible to go any
higher, right?
But now with that example Again,with the mountain, it's more
obvious that you need to climbthe mountain, but in day to day
(08:21):
life in the context of systemicoppression and various dynamics
or entrenched challenges, it maynot be as obvious to people and
perhaps to people with variousprivileged identities that it's
obviously important to takeassertive, strategic, visionary,
(08:43):
intentional action up thatmountain.
So going back to my career andpart of where this is coming out
of is I've noticed a pattern.
And so I stated my, thespecific, some of the specific
markers of my sociologicalidentity here in my current
physical form on planet Earth.
(09:03):
Because..
I've experienced a dynamicthroughout my career, especially
when I was working within otherorganizations and in senior or C
suite executive.
Senior executive roles that whenI would share visionary
thinking, intentional, strategicthinking and plans anchored in
(09:24):
awareness of what is currentlyhappening and assessing
different possibilities andreaching for a more visionary,
intentional outcome or positionfor a program, for a department,
for an organization, for amovement frequently Almost like
clockwork, I would hear, notalways, but like 95 percent of
(09:48):
the time from white presenting,cis het presenting men., I would
often hear, they would say,"Where's the practical pieces of
this?" You know, I'm a morepragmatic thinker," but that's
come up in meetings, a formerexecutive director who I adore,
(10:10):
who I worked with, he wouldoften say, he would kind of
squint his eyes as I was talkingand I've come to realize in
years since I understand morenow what was happening in that
situation.
And then later in, and he was,and I want to give that leader
credit.
I think I'm speaking vaguelyenough that most people wouldn't
know who I'm referring to, but,because he would try, and this
(10:33):
is earlier in my career, hewould try to understand, he
would try to bridge thatdifference.
But I often found more recentlywhen I was working with lay
leaders who tended to be boomerage, although I also have
experienced this also with Gen Xmen too, boomer age, and
(10:56):
sometimes they're also gay men,so white cis men, often but not
always boomers, that they wouldtell me, they would regularly
say, well, we need a pragmaticsolution here, or practical
solution here, and I would oftenfeel very confused, and I didn't
(11:16):
fully, like, I would try tonavigate it as best I could, but
in retrospect, here's what I'vecome to realize, is that I think
that their language wasinaccurate, not intentionally
so.
I think that pretty much all ofthe individuals I'm speaking of
here were definitely doing thebest with the knowledge and
understanding that they had atthat time, as I think most
(11:39):
people are most days in general,right?
I think that their language isnot intentionally but if they
were speaking more accuratelybased upon my perspective and
perception of things, what theywould be saying is,"April, you
are talking about something thatcontradicts my beliefs about
what is possible." And or"Idon't know how you would do
(12:05):
that." Or,"I hear how you'resaying you would do that.
But that pushes me beyond what Ifeel comfortable doing." Or
here's another way of thinkingabout it or saying it.
Is that basically what I'mtrying to say several different
points here, one of them is thatI think often frequently in
(12:26):
those kinds of dynamics wherethere is in my case, but I'm
sure it also happens at times tomen too.
But in my lived experience, it'sbeen me as a cis woman and woman
of color, is that I sharestrategic visionary ideas and
leadership.
And from my perspective, yeah.
The vast majority of my work ishighly pragmatic and practical
(12:48):
and also has a visionary edge.
So it's often piloting thingsare iterative and pushing the
limits of what we think ispossible because frequently the
challenges that we have.
We can't, the, the enduring andadaptive challenges we're facing
can't be resolved by oldstrategies.
(13:09):
But for some reason, people keepdefaulting to old strategies.
And so I'm often bringing in newideas.
Let's bring this new fellowshipin that invests in leaders in a
different sort of way and has adifferent kind of structure.
Let's create a program thattakes a few steps back and helps
(13:30):
people clarify theirunderstanding around certain
things so that we can positionthem for long term success and
then steadily raise the bararound what is possible for each
participant in this programindividually as well as
collectively.
Let's test it and see, let's seewhere people's interests are.
Let's do some organizing.
Let's weave in some one on onedata collection and let's raise
(13:56):
the bar.
Right now I might be saying thisin a very institutionalized
context where organizing isn't apart of the structure and the
makeup and flow.
Of the work, right?
And often people will say thingswhen I say things like this,
where I'm laying out a planabout next steps and what we
should be doing.
And if it's outside of people'scomfort zone, and if it's
(14:16):
different than their defaultthinking and the neural pathways
that they have established, Ifind that frequently they
indirectly label what I'm doingas"impractical" or"not
pragmatic" when I would view itas, visionary and intentional
(14:41):
and moving outside of defaultthinking and operating and
agitational, generativelyVisionarily, intentionally,
lovingly, creatively,agitational to the modes of how
we do things, but usually verypragmatic, but often since it's
(15:07):
outside of those individuals,and this might not even be most
people, but it's often people inkey decision making and
leadership roles, it's outsideof what they think Is possible
it's outside of their existingbelief system.
So, therefore, they deem it'simpossible, even though it's
totally within the realm ofpossibility.
And I might even be citing othersources of contexts or spaces or
(15:28):
places where these tools usuallyin places that have less
resource.
in certain ways and in certainrespects, that these actions or,
different dynamics are possible.
And there's just so much therethat I'm thinking about that I
don't know that I can follow allthe threads.
To me, as I'm saying that rightnow, I'm thinking about, I think
(15:50):
it brings up issues of trust andthe level of trust these
individuals have in me, whichinterestingly, you know, like
some of the sociologicaldynamics come back in general.
And I think that they might haveissues trusting people who share
their identity, although maybe alittle bit less so or more so
because, you know, maybe they'dhave less issues because I might
be speaking through a culturalparadigm and framework that is
(16:15):
familiar to them, right?
So that's also another part ofit, too, that leads them
thinking it's impractical isjust from go, energetically,
linguistically, even though Iwas raised in similar white
supremacist institutions ofhigher education, I still have
(16:36):
retained and specifically workedover time and more so since
those meetings I'm referring to,to engage in Afro Indigenous
coming home work to have adifferent relationship with time
and different orientations tocertain values and aspects that
I think they feel the frictionor reverb of.
(16:57):
I mean, I'm embodying it from aplace of joy, but it's bumping
up against, against differentconstraints that they may have
in certain ways.
And so, I think there's a lotmore to say about this.
But I just want to say to you,if you have been thinking,"Oh, I
(17:18):
don't know if and when I'm goingto do Joyous Justice
programming, you know, I needcoaching and support, but I need
it around more pragmatic issues.
I want you to hear me loud andclear that the work that we do
enjoy as justice is incrediblypragmatic.
What it is not is default.
(17:40):
What it is not is typical.
What it is not is the same oldstuff that often people go back
to that still doesn't get themthe results they want.
What it is is highly efficient.
And profound and mindful of yourtime and the constraints you're
navigating.
And right now, in some ways, I'mspecifically speaking to my
(18:03):
style overall and specificallythe content.
of our Grounded Growing programand the S.H.E.M.A.
System and different S.H.E.M.A.
Processes.
They are designed, and it's sofunny, I'd like to talk about
this frequently lately, that anumber of participants in the
program, when they come in,they're initially asking for a
(18:23):
syllabus, or what they shoulddo.
Steadily, I help them acclimateto Your life and your desires
are the syllabus.
You can work through theS.H.E.M.A.
Process in order.
You can do it in reverse.
You can look at the overview ofthe S.H.E.M.A.
Process and skip ahead to the Msection.
It's here to be in service ofyou.
Right?
So again, so that's like adifferent way of thinking about
(18:46):
things, right?
That rather than us being inservice of institutions and
structures and systems and waysof thinking, that it's
worthwhile to find ways ofthinking and cultivating
communities and structures andsystems that deeply are in
service of us and our needs andthe real time dynamics we have.
(19:08):
So, yes, is the programvisionary?
And is the coaching anddifferent offerings and
education that Joyous Justiceoffers, is it visionary?
Is it intentional?
Is it highly strategic?
Yes, it is.
And I've taken years of refiningprofessionally, spiritually,
intellectually, and embodiedways, insights and principles,
(19:32):
identifying principles acrosstime and space, different
contexts, different identitiesthat consistently make a
difference in helping people toregain access to their own
agency.
Personal power and choice,right, as Dr.
Viktor Frankl taught us, wealways have the power of choice,
but because of internalizedoppression, because of systemic
(19:55):
oppression, because of variousdynamics, patterns that we have
ingrained, early defeats that wehad when we were young that got
really imprinted, there are alot of different ways in our
lives where mostly notconsciously, but even
consciously sometimes, we thinkwe don't have choice.
And I would say that I thinkit's perhaps visionary, but also
(20:18):
super practical and pragmatic tohelp individuals in steady, bite
size, accessible, not timeconsuming ways to steadily
regain greater access to theircapacity to make decisive,
intentional, aligned, attunedchoices.
(20:39):
That align with your needs, yourvalues and your highest visions
of what's possible and whatS.H.E.M.A.
does is help bridge the gap andsupports people and healing
present and core wounds andclearing space and engaging in
different, practical, on a dailyand or weekly basis, sprinkling
(21:02):
it in greater self care, greaterconnection to affinity spaces
and opportunities forsolidarity.
Seed watering to engage.
I love the metaphor that TichNhat Hanh uses from Buddhism of
seed watering, right?
All the best attributes and allthe best attributes or middot,
(21:24):
right?
And also all the worst, as heteaches, are part of our store
consciousness.
And so there are ways thataren't radical, but are highly
pragmatic and practical that wecan steadily intentionally water
the seeds of the desires andattributes that we want in our
life and do so in a way thatover time helps us to gain
(21:49):
greater clarity, to accesshealing, to empty our energetic
and emotional cups.
Proverbial or metaphorical cups,right?
To fill this, the, can we talkabout it before?
Fill the self care cup and emptythe excess energy cup so that we
have more agility and moreagency to very practically and
(22:12):
pragmatically in ways that arevisionary and strategic move
forward our highest visionsabout what's possible for our
relationships, for ourselves,for our lives, for our
organizations, for ourinstitutions, for our society,
and our world.
(22:34):
So I invite you to notice whenthe phrases practical and
pragmatic are used insupportive, generative, helpful
ways, and when with you or withAnother leading edge maverick
leader visionary who has a trackrecord of success in their
(22:57):
career isn't, you know, isn'tfull of offering up pipe dreams
and things that don't getanywhere.
I invite you to be wary andconscious in relationship and in
meetings and board meetings,especially if you're a lay
leader or you're a, you know, ifyou're in a position, a senior
executive staff member, ifyou're in a position of power,
(23:19):
and now in your life for yourown advocacy.
If you're not in one of thosestrategic positions, but you're
in other places of influence andpower, in in other forms,
including over yourself, whichso many of us, including myself
can continue to reclaim thatpower to catch at times if when
(23:46):
someone mentions or reframessomething or says,"Oh, let me
actually bring this back to thepractical..." Is attention being
diverted away from visionary,intentional, strategic thinking?
And in that moment, Is it, infact, is there actually a need,
not so much for pragmaticthinking, because also I think a
(24:08):
piece of it is about potentialfear of humiliation and people
being afraid to say,"I don'tunderstand that," or"from how
I've been living my life--" Idon't know if they would say it
that way-- I see you're veryclear about this, but it's not
clear for me at all." Right?
And so notice that as a moment,either in that precise moment,
or you may need to go back anddebrief with team members and
say,"I hear you.
(24:29):
I also don't fully get you, butI think we need to make a bridge
for some of these other leaders,a cognitive bridge to help them
understand.
And, be more likely to get onboard or to get on board with
what you're saying, becausethey're talking, they're saying
the words practical andpragmatic, but I actually think
that it's just beyond theirconscious, their, their mind's
(24:52):
limitations of what they believeto be possible." So, more to
come on this.
I hope this felt useful,affirming, or divinely
agitational, and it's reallygood to be back in touch.
I continue to have a desire for,a two way street here.
(25:14):
So if you have other, ideas orquestions about what I've said,
feel free to comment on theYouTube page or as I post
elements of this on socialmedia, or you can email me at
info at joyousjustice.
com.
If you have follow up questionsor want to share ideas, I'd love
for this to be an ongoingdialogue.
And perhaps, I think again,there's a lot more to say about
(25:39):
this, so, or specific facets ofwhat I said where I could dive
in deeper.
So if there's specific areasthat you'd like me to prioritize
in that, please let me know.
And it's really great to beconnected and getting to dance a
little bit in your eardrum withyou right now, intellectually
and spiritually.
And I'm so appreciative for yourattention.
(26:02):
And, it is my prayer and desirethat this episode was useful for
you.
And I look forward to more inthe meantime, much love and take
good care.
Thanks for tuning in to learn more about joyous justice,
LLC, our team, and how you canget involved with our community.
(26:24):
Check out the info in our shownotes or find us at
joyousjustice.
com.
If you enjoyed this episode,show us some love subscribe
wherever you're listening.
Tell your people, share whatyou're learning and how your
leadership is evolving.
Stay humble, but not too humbleand keep going because the
future is ours to co create.
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