Honoring Nature & Navigating Networks: Understanding ChatGPT through the Lens of Trees & Tu B'Shevat
February 9, 2023 • 32 mins
In this episode, we dive into a unique and enriching conversation, blending the ancient wisdom of Tu B’Shevat, the Jewish New Year of the Trees, with the cutting-edge realm of artificial intelligence technologies like ChatGPT and Lensa AI.
Join us for a thought-provoking 'socratic seminar' style discussion as we explore the ethical dilemmas, biases, and potential impacts of AI on society, particularly in the context of social justice and diversity.
- How does AI measure up against the enduring wisdom of nature?
- What lessons can we learn from the natural world in our pacing and approach to the rapidly evolving AI landscape?
This episode is not just a discussion; it's an insightful journey through the intersection of natural traditions and digital advancements. Tune in for a rich and engaging exploration of how to navigate the AI era with the rootedness and thoughtfulness mirrored in the growth of trees.
Embrace the challenge of balancing tech trends with tree traditions, and discover the unexpected insights this juxtaposition reveals. Subscribe now and join us in co-creating a future that harmonizes the wisdom of the past with the innovations of the present!
#JoyousJustice #NatureMeetsTech #AI #TuBShevat #NatureWisdom #EmergentStrategy
This week, we put Tu B’Shevat, the Jewish New Year of the trees, in conversation with AI (artificial intelligence) technologies like ChatGPT and Lensa AI. We weigh in on this debate (or socratic seminar, as April calls it) and think about our pacing as AI becomes an increasingly bigger part of our lives.
Explore ChatGPT: https://chat.openai.com/chat
Find Jo Kent Katz’ website here: https://www.jokentkatz.com/
Learn more about Ricardo Levins Morales: https://www.rlmartstudio.com
Learn more about Aurora Levins Morales: http://www.auroralevinsmorales.com/
Listen to our episode titled “Slow, deep, irreversible”: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1146023/11710644
Discussion and reflection questions:
- What in this episode is new for you? What have you learned and how does it land?
- What is resonating? What is sticking with you and why?
- What feels hard? What is challenging or on the edge for you?
- What feelings and sensations are arising and where in your body do you feel them?
Visit https://joyousjustice.com to learn more about Joyous Justice, LLC, our team, and get connected & involved in our community!
Join our online community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/590922415522750
Submit a question, insight, or topic or guest suggestion at https://joyousjustice.com/connect
Find April’s TikTok videos here: https://www.tiktok.com/@aprilavivabaskin
Follow us on Instagram (@joyous.justice), Twitter, (@JoyousJustice), or Facebook (www.facebook.com/joyousjustice365)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This week, we put Tu B'Shevat,the New Year of the trees in
(00:04):
conversation with chat GPT andother AI or artificial
intelligence tools that havebeen making the rounds and
social media and headlineslately.
You're listening to the Joycejustice podcast,
(00:27):
a weekly show hosted by AprilBaskin with Tracy Decker.
in a complex world in whichsystemic oppression conditions
us to deny others and our ownhumanity. let's dedicate
ourselves to the pursuit andembodiment of wholeness, love
and thriving in the world and inour own lives. It's time to heal
and flourish our way to a morejoyous and just future.
(00:57):
belated happy Tu B'Shevat Tracyand friends. Yeah, thanks. You
too. Yeah, when this posts,although people might listen to
this episode at any time, inwhich case, just happy day to
you whatever day it is. We'rehappy evening, wherever you're
tuning in. But in terms of ourrecording, and when this will
initially be published, it'sgoing to be published a few days
(01:18):
after the holiday, the Jewishholiday have to be shot, the
holiday that honors trees, andit's going to be sure more
broadly, but specificallythrough honoring of trees, and
all the many things theysymbolize which are many around
the world, and even withinJudaism. It's a holiday that
celebrates that. Andtraditionally, one of the ways
(01:41):
of observing to be Shabbat is tohave a tuba Shabbat Seder, a
ceremonial, ritualized meal thatinvolves different fruits and
various rituals as a part of itof ways of honoring the
different ways that treesenhance our lives. So I just
wanted to identify that and Ithink there's like an
(02:03):
interesting juxtaposition withthe theme of tubers spot and
what we're looking to talk abouttoday, which is AI, specifically
some of the hubbub around chatGPT. And I'd love to add some
initial joyous justice, insightsand thoughts into the mix, as
well as some of the otherreflections that I've heard and
(02:23):
kind of just have a share somethoughts about that swirling,
dynamic. And, to me, there's aninteresting juxtaposition there
inherently between like, thedeeply unequivocally natural
world and the very much notnatural digital space of AI and
also around speed and pacing,and, and timing. So So yeah, so
(02:51):
before I start to dive intothat, are there any additional
things that you might want tosay, Tracy, about our proximity
to the holiday of two Bish spot?
Oh, thank you. No, I don't thinkso. I think you covered it, I
actually was really, I wasleaning into. I wanted to define
(03:16):
two terms, which maybe you weregonna get to, but one is AI,
which stands for artificialintelligence. Thank you. And the
other is this chat GBT, whichweren't, before we hit record,
we realized, like, I didn't knowthat's what it was called. But
this is the specific form ofartificial intelligence into
which you can feed existingwritten documents and ask it to
(03:36):
spit out a new written document.
Well, Ididn't even more than that, it's
that it was so that thank you.
And that segues us into thispart of the conversation, it's
that you can both get things toalso just pulls all of the
available, like open sourceinformation that's available on
the planet online. So you couldask it to write an essay about
(03:59):
feminist politics in 1695, inthe south of France, and it will
likely generate an essay for youand my first introduction to
hearing about and I think theyactually heard about Chet GPT
before because I had I'd signedinto it before so I guess I'd
heard about some earlieriteration of it and tried it and
(04:20):
have the experience that I'veusually had the experience that
I I've had every time I tryartificial intelligence, which
is that it turns out prettymainstream stuff, which at times
can be somewhat helpful, but forme, it's like oh, this is what's
Alright, this is actuallydoesn't help me at all. And I
(04:42):
know that when Sarah tried toenter some of our content in to
pull some quotes, it wasn't ableto do it. So you know, so as as
so that's one of the firstthings I mean, one of multiple
things to note about chat GBTthat is It's limited in the way
that money of the sources thatit's that it's compiling are,
(05:07):
are limited, right? You know,or, and also the weights
creators at all, it also mayreflect some of the challenges
of its creators in the way in adifferent sort of way that
certain cell phones are horribleat photographing or video, you
know, getting video gettingfootage of dark skinned people,
right, that doesn't include thefull tone. And this is a little
bit different. But similarly,that artificial intelligence can
(05:30):
only use what is out in theether. So, so in terms of the
latest conversation that's beenhappening, one of my first
introductions to it was from apost was was via a Facebook post
from a rabbi who's the spouse ofa friend of mine, and he was
(05:52):
very, I would cite him out quotehim, but I don't know if he's, I
don't know if he's comfortablebeing quoted, I don't remember
what the privacy settings wereon this post. But he was
extremely alarmed about this, hewas alarmed about this as it
related to his children, and howeasy it would be to cheat on on
essay assignments. And he alsotested it around some Jewish
(06:16):
content. And his colleagues hadto, and they were blown away by
the rabbinic by thesophisticated nature of what
chat GPT delivered. And youknow, I think, again, I'm liking
using the word juxtaposing toit, you know, comparing this,
(06:37):
you know, connecting this towhat I was just saying a moment
ago, to me with my knowledgebase, I wonder if your mind is
going there to like, what thatimmediately brings up for me is
that, since Jews are not theonly by our we consider
ourselves the People of the Bookand the written word. And Jews
have been sharing online for awhile now. And an Our religion
(06:57):
is so heavily taxed, anddiscussion and debate based, and
we've been targeted fordestruction over the millennia,
but in the time that theinternet has been around, that
has been a time of fairly goodresourcing for our community,
and tons of our responses andcontent is on is available
(07:22):
online, as opposed to say,around like social justice or
diversity, equity and inclusionwhere you have different leaders
and activists who have varyinglevels actually, but at times,
there's a disproportionatedynamic of disenfranchisement of
lack of resourcing either by thepeople who are mostly directed,
(07:44):
impacted, the folks who areleading the work who are most
directly impacted, and even thefolks who are resourced. They're
countering all of the lack ofresourcing. And there's, there's
a backlog of things to do. Andjust generally, it would make,
you know, or with deiprofessionals, that a number of
us that's diversity, equity,inclusion or social change
leaders, that there's not theequivalent in comparing just
(08:08):
comparing these two from ourJewish vantage point of, of
rabbinic social justice leaderswho spend much of their career
in a scholarly, spiritualpursuit of documenting. All that
is happening. And so. So to me,there's just lots of layers of
(08:31):
this that are interesting, wherethis rabbi was a bit concerned,
you know, for multiple reasons,he was concerned about the
ethics, one thing that heraised, that really resonated
with me, in general, the postscared me a little bit like it
was very compelling what hesaid. And I was also like, but
this doesn't seem like the slantthat I would ultimately take on
(08:51):
on on this frame. But one thingthat did bother me that I can't
remember if he said directly,but it sort of came up is the
dynamic around plagiarism, thatfor me, actually, if this, if
this software is compiling lotsof things, that's great, but
where are the citations? Right?
There's a there's a separatepiece in terms of ethics about
(09:13):
students, which I am that isequally important, although I'm
a little less interested in thatright now, because of some other
facets of it that I want to talkabout. And that doesn't directly
impact me it to me in my mindand our work that we do in the
world, although that affects alot of institutions, but also
from a learning like just so forethics around it, you know, as
as a company and as a community.
(09:37):
And for me, personally as aleader and and I think you're
deeply aligned with this Tracy,I always love to cite my sources
whenever I can. And so that justseems like icky and unethical.
Like, it's like, that's notokay. So, so that's concerning.
And I could also see like, itmight be a little bit of a
(09:58):
conundrum in a way A lot of buteven still, based upon that it's
the technology, it should beable to do it because maybe it's
drawing from multiple sources,maybe it has, like 1000 sources
of the same thing, because it'sbecause it's technology, it's a
machine, you know, that it mightbe like this math, you know, but
even still, it could, you couldsay, there's also the, you know,
this is one sort, you know,there are 20, other 500,000
(10:21):
other sources that also speak tothe French Revolution, or
whatever it's talk, you know,you know, any number of random
Jewish inquiry, you know, whichhands should you use to take
care of your personal hygieneafter a morning prayer, like, I
had a friend whose husband,like, look, eventually found
(10:43):
something like, which handshould I know, to take care of
business? Should I wipe myselfwith, right? Like, there's
probably some Jewish text aroundthis if I search, and he found
it, and it was something abouthow you know, anyway, I don't
remember the details. But therethere was a Jewish response to
this question. So anyway, so Ithink I want to so that sets the
(11:03):
stage a little bit, and so on.
And so as with a number ofdifferent things, you have this
collective Socratic of sorts,more or less Socratic seminar
happening around thisconversation, where you have
certain teachers, and clergy andpeople and copywriters, who for
various reasons, both ethicallyand practically, in the context
(11:25):
of their work, experience,various levels of alarm, and
concern about this, whether it'srelated to the ethics down to
self interest about the impactof this, and then you have folks
like Gary Vee, and other peoplewho are out there who are like
super pro technology, and thisis better. And, you know, since
(11:45):
this is going to be a thing,like why have our kids waste
their time, having to search forall these things when they can
just find it on the internet.
And it's really with likewriting the essays, but getting
certain answers to, you know,which, you know, like, so
there's like all kinds ofdifferent debates swirling
(12:05):
around that. In some ways,that's our old debates about
technology and AI and artificialintelligence in general. And
recently, in the lot more recentweeks, I've heard a couple like
it started to die down likeinitially, you know, when it
first came out, everyone wasexcited. But then as various
(12:27):
folks like, black intellectuals,were coming online and saying,
this, this isn't so helpful forme in terms of helping me with
my copy in any way. And it wasjust kind of my experience of
it. A few years ago, when Itried to input some have tried
to use it to duplicate some ofthe things I've already written.
And what it came back with wasjust like so not on brand, so
(12:51):
lacked depth and sophistication.
And then I've even heard like anumber of white copywriters and
marketing professionals saythat, for certain creators, it
can help you a little bit. Butsince this is now available,
everyone's going to be using it.
And so it has limited value, orlots of people are going to be
(13:13):
using it. So it has limitedvalue. And at the end of the
day, original content isactually now especially going to
be even more important to focuson and now here's the tricky
part. I watched this video a fewweeks ago, that kind of alarmed
me. Like he was saying, and insort of a good way, but it kind
(13:35):
of went to that place of like,you know, helped me out here,
which is like one of the highschool books like Brave New
World and like, you know, othersorts of dystopian realities
like I think this dude who'slike a super capitalist business
guy, you know, I consume lots ofdifferent materials. And I can't
remember what he was justtalking about. He was sharing
(13:57):
some information about what'slike some of these tech races
and what's happening right nowaround and the in the plans for
how AI might be used. And itreally, it alarm. I don't think
he his his point was not toalarm people, but it alarmed me.
In terms of what he was saying,and I remembered what this
(14:18):
colleague of mine this rabbi hadsaid, like I was beginning to
feel in a different sort of waysimilar to the way he felt like,
oh, this just doesn't like in mykitchen, because this is not
Yikes. Like, you're saying likethis is good. And to me, this is
alarming and not not veryjustice oriented and party may
don't remember the details, butit just had this like, it's
going to be everywhere, and it'sgoing to impact our lives. And I
(14:43):
just remember thinking as I wasthinking through it, and it was
causing this, like slight miniexistential crisis for me about
like, what is going to happenand how does this impair or
impact social justice issues andAnd in our capacity to make
change around these things, andthe place where I landed with it
(15:05):
was, and I wonder if I couldfind it, maybe maybe that would
be helpful. And it's weirdthough, because it's not like
this is not a creator that,like, I'm willing to listen to
anything, it's not like create,or that I'm looking to, like,
endorse in any. You know, it wasjust like a dude talking, like I
was trying to I was trying toget, you know, more info about
different components of this andhow it's being used and stuff.
(15:30):
I spent a lot more time thinkingabout the AI, art, the image
generators, than the textgenerators, they sort of made
the rounds.
That's another dynamic. Yeah,that's another dynamic coming
up. Yeah. And that, really,that watching that sort of make
the rounds among my circles, wasreally interesting. And some of
the things that you said aboutthe limits of the AI based on
the limits of those whoprogrammed it, I got a lot, I
(15:52):
had several friends who arelike, AI seems to want me to
lose weight, because the imagesthat like the self portraits
that the AI was generating, weresmaller than they are in, in,
you know, IRL, in real life. Andalso, I had a couple of friends
who are either black ormultiracial, or, you know, who
(16:15):
are black or brown, or identifyas such an AI was making, I had
one friend who was like aIthinks I'm a white woman, like I
don't like she felt really putout. Because the I did not it
lightened her skin and did notsee her African heritage
features. So those are sort ofinteresting, like, bolsters to
(16:39):
what to all that you're sayingabout, you know, some of the
limitations and, and some of theconcerns about plagiarism also
show up in the image spaceswhere, you know, it's been fair
art from contemporary workingartists, potentially as source
material and just kind of ripsthem off. On the other hand, the
(17:01):
one thing that I keep comingback to is that, like,
just very concerning,so early in the development of
this tool, that it's really hardto actually predict. I mean,
there are indications thatSocrates was sort of felt the
same way about written language,because it would destroy memory,
which we only know because ourstudents wrote it down. Right,
(17:24):
so I don't know it's ii see both huge potential, I see
huge potential for both harm andimprovement. And it's hard to
say, which way will end upgoing? In part, because humans
(17:46):
are so capable of both harm andhelp. So that's, that's where I
am like, sort of straddling atthe moment.
Yeah, that's where I was, andone of my takeaways after
watching this video, which I'mtrying the realistically and
(18:07):
once I found it, I would belike, do I really want to
advertise that I watched this.
But like, it wasn't, you know,it was over, you know, it was
mediocre, but it was giving mebackground information. So
anyway, so I'm going to stopsearching for it. Yeah. And
that's initially, roughly whereI landed initially. And then
after watching this video, whereit shared some additional things
(18:30):
that caused me to feel a bitalarmed about where it might be
going, one of the things thatprovided great comfort,
especially now being both verymuch still in process. And on
the other side of the initialphase of my the work I've been
doing around my coconut processaround my coherent ordination
(18:54):
and my indigenous coming homework and integration of
different Well, spiritualitiesand ways of knowing one of my
key takeaways of like, okay,this thing could end up being
super powerful in various waysis that it doesn't operate
within the realm of spirit, norenergy. The timing of your dog's
(19:16):
barking right now. Feels veryaligned. Like I don't
necessarily have a perspectiveabout what it means. But I think
it's like the natural world likeI think what's coming up is like
the natural world being like EffYes, like speak it. Also maybe
there was like the mailmanoutside your house, the mail
(19:38):
person but mail delivery personbut but that timing was just
like, cool to me, like all of ussentient beings shall rise and
that because in some ways itwas, you know, I don't exactly
but it was that like, peoplewould be outpaced and I was
concerned about this as itrelated to your point, the both
(19:59):
in general like I generally landon positive frames and thinking
that like that core theory thatit doesn't take an equal amount
of light, like Bud Light soquickly dispels darkness and all
these different things right? Sothat is all still intact, but
around this specific piece thatwas getting threatened a little
(20:19):
bit. And then, but then Iremembered even if certain
things are being controlled,like basically like, it can't
control God and spirit like andthat that is something that I've
been cultivating safety with.
And it for the first time, moreso than before. Like in the work
I've been doing around this.
It's been around reaching apoint of feeling safe and fully
(20:43):
valid and like I can be includedfor the fullness of my being and
all the ways that I show up. Butthis this realization was like,
Oh, this is actually like, ithelps me see so clearly that in
this hypothetical struggle ofaround for social justice and
how AI may or may not play intothat. That as it says on jokin
(21:05):
CASAS website, they can't takeour magic. And that was like one
of the joyous justice piecesspecifically were the big needs
joyous justice piece that I wasparticularly excited to toss
into toss into the mix.
(21:26):
Yeah, I think that's that's,that really resonates, that
really resonates. I do thinkthere's things that we can learn
from Ai, even, like even theimages ones for this is like
such a small thing. And I'm notexactly sure how it resonates.
But it's coming up for me. So II'll share it. The lens or AI,
(21:46):
which is the one that were sortof making the rounds on social
media a few weeks ago, I playedwith it, and you know, uploaded
a bunch of selfies, and then itspit out, you know, me as a
fairy princess and me as a, as asci fi hero or whatever. And,
and I have a lot of fun with it.
(22:08):
And one of the things that waslike an interesting takeaway for
me. So I was born with a cross alazy eye, right, and I've had
multiple surgeries and whatever.
And it is the thing that I'mvery self conscious about in my
looks, I'm very self consciousabout my iCrossing and AI, the
AI, whatever the engine, sawthat cross AI and included it in
many of the like, paintings, theso called painting the digital
(22:33):
paintings that it created of me.
And it was really interestingfor me to see that and still be
like, Wow, this is gorgeous.
Like, I love the way I look inthis AI rendering of me, even
with the cross eye. And itwasn't even like a despite it
was like a part of the wholepicture. And that was
(22:55):
interesting mirror for me that Idon't like I don't see in
photographs of myself. Like if Isee if I if there's a photograph
and my eyes crossing in thephoto. I'm like, okay, use that
one. immediately dismiss it. Andsomething about the nature of
the AI rendering. Stillincluding the
(23:18):
art. Yeah, but the AI created.
Yeah, and I'm not exactly surewhat I'm taking away from that.
But it was just like, it's amoment of like, that was an
interesting reflection back atmyself. That was a little
different than the folks whowere like, Why is AI making me?
You know, airbrushing thesechange? You're thinner than I am
(23:40):
exactly, or lighter than I am orwhatever, right? Different? Yes,
it's up there. So that's sort ofan interesting, which, again,
may speak to the programmers,right? Like the programmers who
did it may, if one of them hadhad the same congenital
condition that I have, they mayhave programmed it to, like,
align pupils, if you know, forthe rendered thing, but that for
(24:06):
whatever reason, that biaswasn't baked into the
programming. I don't know, I'mnot sure where I'm going with
this. So I apologize for that.
For that.
No, nothing to apologize for.
And I think, yeah, you know,it's, I think it's Yeah, so I
just think it's helpful for usto track these different things
and the choices we're making andhow it lands with us in
different ways. You know, likefor us on our you know, in terms
(24:30):
of my content production I'veencouraged my colleague, my
assistant Sarah to, to use it tosee if it could help us save
time and summarizing our contentor, or doing different or
helping us, reef angle differentthings and it wasn't very
helpful, which I've heard fromother social justice and bipoc
(24:52):
creators that they had a similarexperience and I I personally
opted not to use the lensa. Itwas interesting for me because
it, I intuitively felt weary ofit. And then as I read the
articles, I was like, oh, yeah,that tracks like, I don't want
(25:14):
it having my data, which is likesomewhat arbitrary in the
context of all the things thathave my data. But there was
something about it, where I waslike, I don't want it to have my
data. And I was really curious.
And then, as I read, as you did,the discussions about it, taking
people's artwork. I didn't likethat. And so I abstained from it
(25:36):
in solidarity with artists andspend time thinking about, like,
for me, and also, I think, forothers, like noticing the desire
to see what I would look like,and just thinking about the ways
in at times that we don't valueart, you know, and and how much
(25:57):
people really enjoy that whenthis machine was stealing
people's artwork or taking like,I don't even like is it
stealing? Like, I think there'slike a really interesting
conversation to have there but,and harming folks who are
systemically oppressed in oursociety who are under resource
which generally many artists areand aren't respected in the
context of it, it contradictingor not, usually sometimes, but
(26:22):
in general, it contradictingdifferent forms of systemic
oppression, either by havingbeing in conversation with it or
not, you know, being lessfocused on the production and
profit and different things likethat. And seeing how much joy it
brought people and and having adesire for that, but like,
(26:45):
wondering, like, what was aIdoing with my face? Was his lens
of thing going to do with mylikeness? And and also, then,
when I read about that, feelinghurt on behalf of different
creators whose stuff it wastaking? And so I think something
(27:06):
that I think we're modeling herethat I think is helpful in this
conversation is an in anyconversation, where, where,
where there are multiple threadsof like, how do we, how do we
stay in it? And how do we trackthese different things and be in
(27:26):
an ongoing dialogue about like,what we're seeing and the
choices were making and wherewe're landing with it, and just
staying open to listening toeach other and accounting for
these different variables. And Ithink a theme that came up and
some of what you said that Ireally aligned with about it is,
how can we track it be mindful?
And stay? That's sort of what Iguess that's what I'm further
(27:52):
clarifying. When I say stay in aplace of awareness that's not
anchored in fear. How do we howdo we stay anchored in our
agency around it, even ascertain things are moving
quickly? And how do we maintainconnection and relationship with
those who matter most around iteven as we may have different
analyses and just keep it likehow do we continue to evolve and
(28:17):
stay in that place, which Ithink is a common theme
throughout all of our work?
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's wellsaid.
So I think there's probably somelike fun quip here that I'm not
sure what it is. So I just thinkthis convert I think, or like, I
(28:39):
guess I'll just try it. I haveno idea where this is going. But
so with all of that being said,I think tree medicine is helpful
here. And that great progress ismade over time. Yeah, you're
laughing back. Yeah. I was like,I want to tell you go I was
laughing. I was like, you knowthat like as I'm talking about
(29:01):
this, as I think about trees,and their deep roots, and the
length of time it takes them togrow. I'm seeing some through
lines here at one point likefive or 10 minutes ago, you in
the conversation or 12 orsomething like that. You
mentioned something about pacingand not being in a rush or that
(29:28):
it's not moving that certainpeople are are it's not
necessarily moving as quickly Imean, this video I watch had me
thinking differently but butthat still in this world trees
beautifully model, the teachingof Ricardo Levin's mirallas and
(29:50):
Aurora lemons mirallas. That keyessential work. The key
essential work that we need todo is best on in a way that is
slow Whoa, deep andirreversible. And as quickly, as
I aim a movie, maybe moving ornot, that we can, that's the
through line. And also what Iwas just saying that we can
(30:11):
anchor into relationship, therelationship that is slow, deep
and irreversible and continue toinvest in ourselves and our
connection with spirit and thedivine and the various ways we
can know. So that we can fullyclaim our power and move toward
(30:34):
justice, keeping in mind, thewisdom and strength of tree
medicine, as we are not alwaysin alignment with that, but it's
a good reference point to anchorto anchor back into.
well connected connected withthat with too much fat, like the
(30:54):
reason we have too much fat isto know like at what point we
need to start tithing. And whenwe may harvest the fruit of a
tree is so like the fruit thatcomes before it's, it's actually
appropriate to harvest. Like,I'm sort of thinking of that,
like that lesson, too, that youcan't, if you if you sort of
(31:15):
rush to the harvest, then youcan damage the tree. And you
also it's hard to judge whetheror not the fruit ultimately will
be sweet if you pick it when itis under ripe. And I'm wondering
if that's possibly a metaphorfor where AI is, and where it
might be going.
Yeah, so the trees remind us topace and pace ourselves. That
(31:41):
ideally, I don't know if thetech world will pace itself, but
our relationship to that and howwe are interacting with it and
how that may stay consistent ormay evolve and shift
dramatically over time that wethink about pacing, and our
rootedness and different seasonsof our lives. So with that,
wishing you a happy touchpad isnot a week. It's a day but the
(32:04):
week happy week in which torespond occurs and sending you
much love until next time.
Thanks for tuning in.
To learn more about joyousjustice LLC, our team and how
you can get involved with ourcommunity. Check out the info in
our show notes, or find us atjoyous justice.com
(32:25):
If you enjoyed this episode,show us some love. Subscribe
wherever you're listening. Tellyour people share what you're
learning and how your leadershipis evolving. Stay humble, but
not too humble.
And keep going because thefuture is ours to co create
This week, we put Tu B'Shevat,the New Year of the trees in
(00:04):
conversation with chat GPT andother AI or artificial
intelligence tools that havebeen making the rounds and
social media and headlineslately.
You're listening to the Joycejustice podcast,
(00:27):
a weekly show hosted by AprilBaskin with Tracy Decker.
in a complex world in whichsystemic oppression conditions
us to deny others and our ownhumanity. let's dedicate
ourselves to the pursuit andembodiment of wholeness, love
and thriving in the world and inour own lives. It's time to heal
and flourish our way to a morejoyous and just future.
(00:57):
belated happy Tu B'Shevat Tracyand friends. Yeah, thanks. You
too. Yeah, when this posts,although people might listen to
this episode at any time, inwhich case, just happy day to
you whatever day it is. We'rehappy evening, wherever you're
tuning in. But in terms of ourrecording, and when this will
initially be published, it'sgoing to be published a few days
(01:18):
after the holiday, the Jewishholiday have to be shot, the
holiday that honors trees, andit's going to be sure more
broadly, but specificallythrough honoring of trees, and
all the many things theysymbolize which are many around
the world, and even withinJudaism. It's a holiday that
celebrates that. Andtraditionally, one of the ways
(01:41):
of observing to be Shabbat is tohave a tuba Shabbat Seder, a
ceremonial, ritualized meal thatinvolves different fruits and
various rituals as a part of itof ways of honoring the
different ways that treesenhance our lives. So I just
wanted to identify that and Ithink there's like an
(02:03):
interesting juxtaposition withthe theme of tubers spot and
what we're looking to talk abouttoday, which is AI, specifically
some of the hubbub around chatGPT. And I'd love to add some
initial joyous justice, insightsand thoughts into the mix, as
well as some of the otherreflections that I've heard and
(02:23):
kind of just have a share somethoughts about that swirling,
dynamic. And, to me, there's aninteresting juxtaposition there
inherently between like, thedeeply unequivocally natural
world and the very much notnatural digital space of AI and
also around speed and pacing,and, and timing. So So yeah, so
(02:51):
before I start to dive intothat, are there any additional
things that you might want tosay, Tracy, about our proximity
to the holiday of two Bish spot?
Oh, thank you. No, I don't thinkso. I think you covered it, I
actually was really, I wasleaning into. I wanted to define
(03:16):
two terms, which maybe you weregonna get to, but one is AI,
which stands for artificialintelligence. Thank you. And the
other is this chat GBT, whichweren't, before we hit record,
we realized, like, I didn't knowthat's what it was called. But
this is the specific form ofartificial intelligence into
which you can feed existingwritten documents and ask it to
(03:36):
spit out a new written document.
Well, Ididn't even more than that, it's
that it was so that thank you.
And that segues us into thispart of the conversation, it's
that you can both get things toalso just pulls all of the
available, like open sourceinformation that's available on
the planet online. So you couldask it to write an essay about
(03:59):
feminist politics in 1695, inthe south of France, and it will
likely generate an essay for youand my first introduction to
hearing about and I think theyactually heard about Chet GPT
before because I had I'd signedinto it before so I guess I'd
heard about some earlieriteration of it and tried it and
(04:20):
have the experience that I'veusually had the experience that
I I've had every time I tryartificial intelligence, which
is that it turns out prettymainstream stuff, which at times
can be somewhat helpful, but forme, it's like oh, this is what's
Alright, this is actuallydoesn't help me at all. And I
(04:42):
know that when Sarah tried toenter some of our content in to
pull some quotes, it wasn't ableto do it. So you know, so as as
so that's one of the firstthings I mean, one of multiple
things to note about chat GBTthat is It's limited in the way
that money of the sources thatit's that it's compiling are,
(05:07):
are limited, right? You know,or, and also the weights
creators at all, it also mayreflect some of the challenges
of its creators in the way in adifferent sort of way that
certain cell phones are horribleat photographing or video, you
know, getting video gettingfootage of dark skinned people,
right, that doesn't include thefull tone. And this is a little
bit different. But similarly,that artificial intelligence can
(05:30):
only use what is out in theether. So, so in terms of the
latest conversation that's beenhappening, one of my first
introductions to it was from apost was was via a Facebook post
from a rabbi who's the spouse ofa friend of mine, and he was
(05:52):
very, I would cite him out quotehim, but I don't know if he's, I
don't know if he's comfortablebeing quoted, I don't remember
what the privacy settings wereon this post. But he was
extremely alarmed about this, hewas alarmed about this as it
related to his children, and howeasy it would be to cheat on on
essay assignments. And he alsotested it around some Jewish
(06:16):
content. And his colleagues hadto, and they were blown away by
the rabbinic by thesophisticated nature of what
chat GPT delivered. And youknow, I think, again, I'm liking
using the word juxtaposing toit, you know, comparing this,
(06:37):
you know, connecting this towhat I was just saying a moment
ago, to me with my knowledgebase, I wonder if your mind is
going there to like, what thatimmediately brings up for me is
that, since Jews are not theonly by our we consider
ourselves the People of the Bookand the written word. And Jews
have been sharing online for awhile now. And an Our religion
(06:57):
is so heavily taxed, anddiscussion and debate based, and
we've been targeted fordestruction over the millennia,
but in the time that theinternet has been around, that
has been a time of fairly goodresourcing for our community,
and tons of our responses andcontent is on is available
(07:22):
online, as opposed to say,around like social justice or
diversity, equity and inclusionwhere you have different leaders
and activists who have varyinglevels actually, but at times,
there's a disproportionatedynamic of disenfranchisement of
lack of resourcing either by thepeople who are mostly directed,
(07:44):
impacted, the folks who areleading the work who are most
directly impacted, and even thefolks who are resourced. They're
countering all of the lack ofresourcing. And there's, there's
a backlog of things to do. Andjust generally, it would make,
you know, or with deiprofessionals, that a number of
us that's diversity, equity,inclusion or social change
leaders, that there's not theequivalent in comparing just
(08:08):
comparing these two from ourJewish vantage point of, of
rabbinic social justice leaderswho spend much of their career
in a scholarly, spiritualpursuit of documenting. All that
is happening. And so. So to me,there's just lots of layers of
(08:31):
this that are interesting, wherethis rabbi was a bit concerned,
you know, for multiple reasons,he was concerned about the
ethics, one thing that heraised, that really resonated
with me, in general, the postscared me a little bit like it
was very compelling what hesaid. And I was also like, but
this doesn't seem like the slantthat I would ultimately take on
(08:51):
on on this frame. But one thingthat did bother me that I can't
remember if he said directly,but it sort of came up is the
dynamic around plagiarism, thatfor me, actually, if this, if
this software is compiling lotsof things, that's great, but
where are the citations? Right?
There's a there's a separatepiece in terms of ethics about
(09:13):
students, which I am that isequally important, although I'm
a little less interested in thatright now, because of some other
facets of it that I want to talkabout. And that doesn't directly
impact me it to me in my mindand our work that we do in the
world, although that affects alot of institutions, but also
from a learning like just so forethics around it, you know, as
as a company and as a community.
(09:37):
And for me, personally as aleader and and I think you're
deeply aligned with this Tracy,I always love to cite my sources
whenever I can. And so that justseems like icky and unethical.
Like, it's like, that's notokay. So, so that's concerning.
And I could also see like, itmight be a little bit of a
(09:58):
conundrum in a way A lot of buteven still, based upon that it's
the technology, it should beable to do it because maybe it's
drawing from multiple sources,maybe it has, like 1000 sources
of the same thing, because it'sbecause it's technology, it's a
machine, you know, that it mightbe like this math, you know, but
even still, it could, you couldsay, there's also the, you know,
this is one sort, you know,there are 20, other 500,000
(10:21):
other sources that also speak tothe French Revolution, or
whatever it's talk, you know,you know, any number of random
Jewish inquiry, you know, whichhands should you use to take
care of your personal hygieneafter a morning prayer, like, I
had a friend whose husband,like, look, eventually found
(10:43):
something like, which handshould I know, to take care of
business? Should I wipe myselfwith, right? Like, there's
probably some Jewish text aroundthis if I search, and he found
it, and it was something abouthow you know, anyway, I don't
remember the details. But therethere was a Jewish response to
this question. So anyway, so Ithink I want to so that sets the
(11:03):
stage a little bit, and so on.
And so as with a number ofdifferent things, you have this
collective Socratic of sorts,more or less Socratic seminar
happening around thisconversation, where you have
certain teachers, and clergy andpeople and copywriters, who for
various reasons, both ethicallyand practically, in the context
(11:25):
of their work, experience,various levels of alarm, and
concern about this, whether it'srelated to the ethics down to
self interest about the impactof this, and then you have folks
like Gary Vee, and other peoplewho are out there who are like
super pro technology, and thisis better. And, you know, since
(11:45):
this is going to be a thing,like why have our kids waste
their time, having to search forall these things when they can
just find it on the internet.
And it's really with likewriting the essays, but getting
certain answers to, you know,which, you know, like, so
there's like all kinds ofdifferent debates swirling
(12:05):
around that. In some ways,that's our old debates about
technology and AI and artificialintelligence in general. And
recently, in the lot more recentweeks, I've heard a couple like
it started to die down likeinitially, you know, when it
first came out, everyone wasexcited. But then as various
(12:27):
folks like, black intellectuals,were coming online and saying,
this, this isn't so helpful forme in terms of helping me with
my copy in any way. And it wasjust kind of my experience of
it. A few years ago, when Itried to input some have tried
to use it to duplicate some ofthe things I've already written.
And what it came back with wasjust like so not on brand, so
(12:51):
lacked depth and sophistication.
And then I've even heard like anumber of white copywriters and
marketing professionals saythat, for certain creators, it
can help you a little bit. Butsince this is now available,
everyone's going to be using it.
And so it has limited value, orlots of people are going to be
(13:13):
using it. So it has limitedvalue. And at the end of the
day, original content isactually now especially going to
be even more important to focuson and now here's the tricky
part. I watched this video a fewweeks ago, that kind of alarmed
me. Like he was saying, and insort of a good way, but it kind
(13:35):
of went to that place of like,you know, helped me out here,
which is like one of the highschool books like Brave New
World and like, you know, othersorts of dystopian realities
like I think this dude who'slike a super capitalist business
guy, you know, I consume lots ofdifferent materials. And I can't
remember what he was justtalking about. He was sharing
(13:57):
some information about what'slike some of these tech races
and what's happening right nowaround and the in the plans for
how AI might be used. And itreally, it alarm. I don't think
he his his point was not toalarm people, but it alarmed me.
In terms of what he was saying,and I remembered what this
(14:18):
colleague of mine this rabbi hadsaid, like I was beginning to
feel in a different sort of waysimilar to the way he felt like,
oh, this just doesn't like in mykitchen, because this is not
Yikes. Like, you're saying likethis is good. And to me, this is
alarming and not not veryjustice oriented and party may
don't remember the details, butit just had this like, it's
going to be everywhere, and it'sgoing to impact our lives. And I
(14:43):
just remember thinking as I wasthinking through it, and it was
causing this, like slight miniexistential crisis for me about
like, what is going to happenand how does this impair or
impact social justice issues andAnd in our capacity to make
change around these things, andthe place where I landed with it
(15:05):
was, and I wonder if I couldfind it, maybe maybe that would
be helpful. And it's weirdthough, because it's not like
this is not a creator that,like, I'm willing to listen to
anything, it's not like create,or that I'm looking to, like,
endorse in any. You know, it wasjust like a dude talking, like I
was trying to I was trying toget, you know, more info about
different components of this andhow it's being used and stuff.
(15:30):
I spent a lot more time thinkingabout the AI, art, the image
generators, than the textgenerators, they sort of made
the rounds.
That's another dynamic. Yeah,that's another dynamic coming
up. Yeah. And that, really,that watching that sort of make
the rounds among my circles, wasreally interesting. And some of
the things that you said aboutthe limits of the AI based on
the limits of those whoprogrammed it, I got a lot, I
(15:52):
had several friends who arelike, AI seems to want me to
lose weight, because the imagesthat like the self portraits
that the AI was generating, weresmaller than they are in, in,
you know, IRL, in real life. Andalso, I had a couple of friends
who are either black ormultiracial, or, you know, who
(16:15):
are black or brown, or identifyas such an AI was making, I had
one friend who was like aIthinks I'm a white woman, like I
don't like she felt really putout. Because the I did not it
lightened her skin and did notsee her African heritage
features. So those are sort ofinteresting, like, bolsters to
(16:39):
what to all that you're sayingabout, you know, some of the
limitations and, and some of theconcerns about plagiarism also
show up in the image spaceswhere, you know, it's been fair
art from contemporary workingartists, potentially as source
material and just kind of ripsthem off. On the other hand, the
(17:01):
one thing that I keep comingback to is that, like,
just very concerning,so early in the development of
this tool, that it's really hardto actually predict. I mean,
there are indications thatSocrates was sort of felt the
same way about written language,because it would destroy memory,
which we only know because ourstudents wrote it down. Right,
(17:24):
so I don't know it's ii see both huge potential, I see
huge potential for both harm andimprovement. And it's hard to
say, which way will end upgoing? In part, because humans
(17:46):
are so capable of both harm andhelp. So that's, that's where I
am like, sort of straddling atthe moment.
Yeah, that's where I was, andone of my takeaways after
watching this video, which I'mtrying the realistically and
(18:07):
once I found it, I would belike, do I really want to
advertise that I watched this.
But like, it wasn't, you know,it was over, you know, it was
mediocre, but it was giving mebackground information. So
anyway, so I'm going to stopsearching for it. Yeah. And
that's initially, roughly whereI landed initially. And then
after watching this video, whereit shared some additional things
(18:30):
that caused me to feel a bitalarmed about where it might be
going, one of the things thatprovided great comfort,
especially now being both verymuch still in process. And on
the other side of the initialphase of my the work I've been
doing around my coconut processaround my coherent ordination
(18:54):
and my indigenous coming homework and integration of
different Well, spiritualitiesand ways of knowing one of my
key takeaways of like, okay,this thing could end up being
super powerful in various waysis that it doesn't operate
within the realm of spirit, norenergy. The timing of your dog's
(19:16):
barking right now. Feels veryaligned. Like I don't
necessarily have a perspectiveabout what it means. But I think
it's like the natural world likeI think what's coming up is like
the natural world being like EffYes, like speak it. Also maybe
there was like the mailmanoutside your house, the mail
(19:38):
person but mail delivery personbut but that timing was just
like, cool to me, like all of ussentient beings shall rise and
that because in some ways itwas, you know, I don't exactly
but it was that like, peoplewould be outpaced and I was
concerned about this as itrelated to your point, the both
(19:59):
in general like I generally landon positive frames and thinking
that like that core theory thatit doesn't take an equal amount
of light, like Bud Light soquickly dispels darkness and all
these different things right? Sothat is all still intact, but
around this specific piece thatwas getting threatened a little
(20:19):
bit. And then, but then Iremembered even if certain
things are being controlled,like basically like, it can't
control God and spirit like andthat that is something that I've
been cultivating safety with.
And it for the first time, moreso than before. Like in the work
I've been doing around this.
It's been around reaching apoint of feeling safe and fully
(20:43):
valid and like I can be includedfor the fullness of my being and
all the ways that I show up. Butthis this realization was like,
Oh, this is actually like, ithelps me see so clearly that in
this hypothetical struggle ofaround for social justice and
how AI may or may not play intothat. That as it says on jokin
(21:05):
CASAS website, they can't takeour magic. And that was like one
of the joyous justice piecesspecifically were the big needs
joyous justice piece that I wasparticularly excited to toss
into toss into the mix.
(21:26):
Yeah, I think that's that's,that really resonates, that
really resonates. I do thinkthere's things that we can learn
from Ai, even, like even theimages ones for this is like
such a small thing. And I'm notexactly sure how it resonates.
But it's coming up for me. So II'll share it. The lens or AI,
(21:46):
which is the one that were sortof making the rounds on social
media a few weeks ago, I playedwith it, and you know, uploaded
a bunch of selfies, and then itspit out, you know, me as a
fairy princess and me as a, as asci fi hero or whatever. And,
and I have a lot of fun with it.
(22:08):
And one of the things that waslike an interesting takeaway for
me. So I was born with a cross alazy eye, right, and I've had
multiple surgeries and whatever.
And it is the thing that I'mvery self conscious about in my
looks, I'm very self consciousabout my iCrossing and AI, the
AI, whatever the engine, sawthat cross AI and included it in
many of the like, paintings, theso called painting the digital
(22:33):
paintings that it created of me.
And it was really interestingfor me to see that and still be
like, Wow, this is gorgeous.
Like, I love the way I look inthis AI rendering of me, even
with the cross eye. And itwasn't even like a despite it
was like a part of the wholepicture. And that was
(22:55):
interesting mirror for me that Idon't like I don't see in
photographs of myself. Like if Isee if I if there's a photograph
and my eyes crossing in thephoto. I'm like, okay, use that
one. immediately dismiss it. Andsomething about the nature of
the AI rendering. Stillincluding the
(23:18):
art. Yeah, but the AI created.
Yeah, and I'm not exactly surewhat I'm taking away from that.
But it was just like, it's amoment of like, that was an
interesting reflection back atmyself. That was a little
different than the folks whowere like, Why is AI making me?
You know, airbrushing thesechange? You're thinner than I am
(23:40):
exactly, or lighter than I am orwhatever, right? Different? Yes,
it's up there. So that's sort ofan interesting, which, again,
may speak to the programmers,right? Like the programmers who
did it may, if one of them hadhad the same congenital
condition that I have, they mayhave programmed it to, like,
align pupils, if you know, forthe rendered thing, but that for
(24:06):
whatever reason, that biaswasn't baked into the
programming. I don't know, I'mnot sure where I'm going with
this. So I apologize for that.
For that.
No, nothing to apologize for.
And I think, yeah, you know,it's, I think it's Yeah, so I
just think it's helpful for usto track these different things
and the choices we're making andhow it lands with us in
different ways. You know, likefor us on our you know, in terms
(24:30):
of my content production I'veencouraged my colleague, my
assistant Sarah to, to use it tosee if it could help us save
time and summarizing our contentor, or doing different or
helping us, reef angle differentthings and it wasn't very
helpful, which I've heard fromother social justice and bipoc
(24:52):
creators that they had a similarexperience and I I personally
opted not to use the lensa. Itwas interesting for me because
it, I intuitively felt weary ofit. And then as I read the
articles, I was like, oh, yeah,that tracks like, I don't want
(25:14):
it having my data, which is likesomewhat arbitrary in the
context of all the things thathave my data. But there was
something about it, where I waslike, I don't want it to have my
data. And I was really curious.
And then, as I read, as you did,the discussions about it, taking
people's artwork. I didn't likethat. And so I abstained from it
(25:36):
in solidarity with artists andspend time thinking about, like,
for me, and also, I think, forothers, like noticing the desire
to see what I would look like,and just thinking about the ways
in at times that we don't valueart, you know, and and how much
(25:57):
people really enjoy that whenthis machine was stealing
people's artwork or taking like,I don't even like is it
stealing? Like, I think there'slike a really interesting
conversation to have there but,and harming folks who are
systemically oppressed in oursociety who are under resource
which generally many artists areand aren't respected in the
context of it, it contradictingor not, usually sometimes, but
(26:22):
in general, it contradictingdifferent forms of systemic
oppression, either by havingbeing in conversation with it or
not, you know, being lessfocused on the production and
profit and different things likethat. And seeing how much joy it
brought people and and having adesire for that, but like,
(26:45):
wondering, like, what was aIdoing with my face? Was his lens
of thing going to do with mylikeness? And and also, then,
when I read about that, feelinghurt on behalf of different
creators whose stuff it wastaking? And so I think something
(27:06):
that I think we're modeling herethat I think is helpful in this
conversation is an in anyconversation, where, where,
where there are multiple threadsof like, how do we, how do we
stay in it? And how do we trackthese different things and be in
(27:26):
an ongoing dialogue about like,what we're seeing and the
choices were making and wherewe're landing with it, and just
staying open to listening toeach other and accounting for
these different variables. And Ithink a theme that came up and
some of what you said that Ireally aligned with about it is,
how can we track it be mindful?
And stay? That's sort of what Iguess that's what I'm further
(27:52):
clarifying. When I say stay in aplace of awareness that's not
anchored in fear. How do we howdo we stay anchored in our
agency around it, even ascertain things are moving
quickly? And how do we maintainconnection and relationship with
those who matter most around iteven as we may have different
analyses and just keep it likehow do we continue to evolve and
(28:17):
stay in that place, which Ithink is a common theme
throughout all of our work?
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's wellsaid.
So I think there's probably somelike fun quip here that I'm not
sure what it is. So I just thinkthis convert I think, or like, I
(28:39):
guess I'll just try it. I haveno idea where this is going. But
so with all of that being said,I think tree medicine is helpful
here. And that great progress ismade over time. Yeah, you're
laughing back. Yeah. I was like,I want to tell you go I was
laughing. I was like, you knowthat like as I'm talking about
(29:01):
this, as I think about trees,and their deep roots, and the
length of time it takes them togrow. I'm seeing some through
lines here at one point likefive or 10 minutes ago, you in
the conversation or 12 orsomething like that. You
mentioned something about pacingand not being in a rush or that
(29:28):
it's not moving that certainpeople are are it's not
necessarily moving as quickly Imean, this video I watch had me
thinking differently but butthat still in this world trees
beautifully model, the teachingof Ricardo Levin's mirallas and
(29:50):
Aurora lemons mirallas. That keyessential work. The key
essential work that we need todo is best on in a way that is
slow Whoa, deep andirreversible. And as quickly, as
I aim a movie, maybe moving ornot, that we can, that's the
through line. And also what Iwas just saying that we can
(30:11):
anchor into relationship, therelationship that is slow, deep
and irreversible and continue toinvest in ourselves and our
connection with spirit and thedivine and the various ways we
can know. So that we can fullyclaim our power and move toward
(30:34):
justice, keeping in mind, thewisdom and strength of tree
medicine, as we are not alwaysin alignment with that, but it's
a good reference point to anchorto anchor back into.
well connected connected withthat with too much fat, like the
(30:54):
reason we have too much fat isto know like at what point we
need to start tithing. And whenwe may harvest the fruit of a
tree is so like the fruit thatcomes before it's, it's actually
appropriate to harvest. Like,I'm sort of thinking of that,
like that lesson, too, that youcan't, if you if you sort of
(31:15):
rush to the harvest, then youcan damage the tree. And you
also it's hard to judge whetheror not the fruit ultimately will
be sweet if you pick it when itis under ripe. And I'm wondering
if that's possibly a metaphorfor where AI is, and where it
might be going.
Yeah, so the trees remind us topace and pace ourselves. That
(31:41):
ideally, I don't know if thetech world will pace itself, but
our relationship to that and howwe are interacting with it and
how that may stay consistent ormay evolve and shift
dramatically over time that wethink about pacing, and our
rootedness and different seasonsof our lives. So with that,
wishing you a happy touchpad isnot a week. It's a day but the
(32:04):
week happy week in which torespond occurs and sending you
much love until next time.
Thanks for tuning in.
To learn more about joyousjustice LLC, our team and how
you can get involved with ourcommunity. Check out the info in
our show notes, or find us atjoyous justice.com
(32:25):
If you enjoyed this episode,show us some love. Subscribe
wherever you're listening. Tellyour people share what you're
learning and how your leadershipis evolving. Stay humble, but
not too humble.
And keep going because thefuture is ours to co create
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