If there’s such a thing as a modern-day stork — it's Dr. Jain.
Dr. Jain is an not just any reproductive endocrinologist and infertility specialist — he helped create my family — and thousands of others — with a rare blend of brilliance, brutal honesty, and just the right amount of sarcasm.
This conversation is the opposite of clinical. We dive into:
🧡 Egg donation and genetic curveballs
🧡 Why you shouldn't be so stressed about stress when it comes to infertility.
🧡 The myths we’ve outgrown
🧡 How fertility insurance coverage has made major progress — and where it still falls short
🧡 And the truth about making peace with a Plan B that still leads to your dream
Dr. Jain brings the facts, the science, and the hope — reminding us that even if the path to parenthood looks wildly different than we imagined, there’s almost always a way forward.
This episode is for anyone navigating infertility, supporting someone who is, or just trying to wrap their head around the wild world of modern family-building.
🎙️ Listen to the full episode now — and share it with someone who needs a little less fear and a lot more clarity.
#TheKeriCroftShow #InfertilitySeries #InfertilityAwarenessMonth #1in6 #EggDonation #GeneticCounseling #FertilitySpecialist #IVFSupport #DrJain #InfertilityMyths #YouAreNotAlone #ModernParenthood #SayTheThing
-----
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to the Keri Croft Show and to the next
episode in our infertilityseries.
Today's guest is someone who'splayed a huge role in my story
Dr Jane, one of the topfertility specialists right here
in Columbus and the person whohelped me create my beautiful
family.
But beyond his expertise, drJane is just a fun guy to talk
to.
He brings not only incredibleknowledge but also humor and
(00:24):
heart to a topic that, let's behonest, can feel really heavy
sometimes.
Our conversation waslighthearted, insightful and
full of the kind of real talk Iknow you're here for.
We dive into the fertilityworld what's changing, what
people should know and how.
Having the right team in yourcorner can make all the
difference.
And if you're in Ohio lookingfor a fertility clinic that
(00:44):
leads with compassion and care,I can't recommend Pinnacle
Fertility Ohio enough.
Dr Jane and his team are thereal deal, as always.
If this episode speaks to you,or if you know someone who could
use this kind of info andsupport, please share it, rate
it, review it, send it to afriend.
Every share helps spread theword and keeps these important
conversations moving forward.
(01:04):
To a friend.
Every share helps spread theword and keeps these important
conversations moving forward.
All right, let's get into it.
Here's my chat with Dr Jane.
Facing challenges, conceivingExperience, compassionate care
from leading fertility expertsat Pinnacle Fertility Ohio.
Your dedicated navigator is acall or text away for concierge
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Don't say I've never doneanything for you.
That's what you do.
You play Switzerland.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Yes, incredible.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Or you go hey, chat, gpt.
What's up?
Motherfucker?
How do I answer this question?
Alright, here we go.
Dr Jane, did you have a hardtime getting in with all the
paparazzi?
Speaker 2 (02:33):
is all I want to know .
There's no paparazzi.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
It's on.
Welcome to the Keri.
Croft show it's been on.
This thing is on.
We got a lot of I got you.
I got you like audio texts andthe ladies.
I got it all.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
I thought we're wearing like headphones or
something.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Do you want to wear?
Speaker 2 (02:50):
them.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Uh, no, all the cool kids are done wearing the
headphones.
Yeah, you dropped your phone.
You're going to need that,cause I know someone's going to
call you.
There's going to be some kindof awkward.
Yes, there's going to be somekind of awkward text or phone
call that you're going to take.
I don't care, I actually likewhen you take calls.
Okay, so I'm giddy to have youhere because, number one, I just
(03:12):
love you, I get you, I love you, I am reeling.
We just started thisinfertility series.
We dropped the first episodethis morning and these women
have just outdone themselves thefirst episode this morning and
these women have just outdonethemselves and I'm just very
excited to shed light and bringspace to a topic that makes a
lot of people feel othered, uh,that makes a lot of people feel
(03:35):
shame, and they want to kind ofshrink in a corner until they
can kind of fix what's wrong.
So we're here to like bring,bring it out, bring it out, and
you're here, the king of theking of columbus all right.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
So we're gonna.
We're equal playing field.
Yeah, you, you have an uncannyway of making people feel really
good about themselves, and thenI'm gonna walk out of here, get
out in the real world, andsomeone's gonna let me know what
a big loser.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
I am not true, you know, because the thing about me
that I will stand by, is Ispeak the truth, like I don't
just make things up.
You definitely are known tolike if you were a little turd
and I didn't like you, Iwouldn't be like, hey, dr jane,
I'd just be like, hey, what's up, dr jane, I speak the truth,
okay.
So now, like I told you on mylist that I have teed up for you
(04:19):
I mean, we are teed up for thisyou're the modern day stork I
should have prepared, but no,you not preparing is what the
people need.
They need you off the rip, themodern day stork.
Do you think anyone has namedtheir children after you, or
maybe at least a middle name inhonor of you helping them have
their family?
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Okay, modern day stork.
By the way, great movie Ifyou've seen Storks.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
I great movie if you've seen storks, yeah I love
that movie.
Yeah, um, and actually I knowI'm not answering your question
when I saw that movie I thoughtof, like so many of my patients,
that I'm like man.
If they're watching this, whatdoes it feel like?
Right, because you know it'sall about trying to have a kid
um I'll tell you what it feelslike.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
It feels like shit.
Anytime you see anything thathas to do with trying to have a
kid and you're trying to have akid, you're like oh, here we go,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
That's what it feels like, and so many of my patients
are like school teachers havingto deal with kids all day,
right Like it's.
Yeah, it does mean a lot whensomeone does that.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
They did it.
Have they done it?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
I mean.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
How many?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
people.
I mean, ok, you give me,there's a ballpark, ballpark,
yeah.
So over the years, um, I canprobably immediately think of
like seven or eight.
That's amazing but, that's butthat's you know.
(05:37):
Here's the thing I'm sofortunate, I mean.
I mean I'm deeply connected toso many of my patients like you.
Right, you don't need to nameit, doesn't have to be Dane Jane
Croft.
That's a crazy way to name.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
by the way, you know what we really missed on that,
didn't we?
Dane?
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Jane For his sake, thank God, because you know.
First off, jane's not evenspelled right for most people I
like J-A-I N.
Well, you know, j-n-a is a verycommon name, right?
Not common, it's a popular name, maybe nowadays, yeah, and
that's got Jane in it.
No relationship there.
(06:18):
But I think once you use thename for that kid, it's a
permanent thing.
So these seven or eight kidsout there, they're going to be
like Mom.
What's up with that?
Why couldn't you spell it right?
Because I got to clarify.
Kids out there, they're gonnabe like mom.
What's up with that?
Why couldn't you spell it right?
Because I gotta clarify it foreverybody, right?
What's like?
Oh well, you know, 15 years agoI had this fertility doctor and
it's like I feel like as lifegoes on, the fertility thing
gets smaller and smaller andsmaller.
Right, because a huge thing atthe time.
So I would highly encouragepatients to think long term, not
(06:43):
in the short term, you, youknow, but those I, you know I'm
in a weird way.
As embarrassing as it is, itdoes make you feel like super,
makes you feel nice.
I mean.
I think all of our patientsappreciate us and I think that's
awesome.
That's obviously a next level.
I mean, am I supposed to payfor their college?
I don't know.
(07:03):
I don't know where myresponsibilities end, right?
So I have a little fund I haveto put on the side, just in case
if they'll come back Like hey,time to pay it up, buddy, like
oh really, you're so, it's sogood.
No, but they're great people.
I feel like I caught you at agood time.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Oh, I feel like when I caught you, you were already
thinking a certain way well see,I had already resigned myself,
um, that I wasn't gonna havekids like I'm.
So when I started sos, it waslike, okay, I'm not making a ton
of eggs here and brady has abalanced translocation.
So, like you put those twothings together it's not not
going.
I mean, if you look, juststatistically so.
it wasn't until I so I was, Iwas knee deep in SOS and I was
(07:50):
super fulfilled by that.
And then I went to Bali for aweek by myself to do yoga
training and I was 40 and I justremember feeling and this was
just my feeling Like I believethere are so many people who can
just have a life and not be amom and they're okay.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Carrie Croft in Bali by herself, is a white Lotus
episode waiting to happen.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Oh no, you should have seen it Like that's a whole
nother conversation that youand I would go on an ADD rate.
We would go on an ADD rampageover.
Can I have that as my entrysong?
I mean, I was like I was likeup in a mountain by myself.
It was so I had this holeinside of me and I was so like
God, I just I, you know, I couldnever quite close the door on
it.
And then I started thinking likewait, I would do an egg donor
(08:30):
in a second.
Like it was like one day itjust hit me I was like I don't
care, like for Brady to do asperm donor.
Oh, we tried that.
Like he was like what are theygoing to call me the uncle?
He, he couldn't wrap his malebrain around that.
Right.
But when I thought about it Iwas like wait a minute, I'm more
than okay with this.
So then I thought of it as likestatistically, I'm like hold on
(08:54):
.
Then my business brain, mywanting to figure something out
brain, also took over where I'mlike okay, I know we can get
normal embryos, I know we canget them.
And it also became like a thingI wanted to solve and so I knew
there was a little boy in theuniverse that was meant to be
mine.
I knew he was out there and Icouldn't.
(09:14):
I mean, as long as I was okaywith the donor and and luckily,
luckily, this, this donor thatwe found.
I know who she is because theygave me a little too much
information.
It's not hard to find right andthere were just a couple things
with her?
Speaker 2 (09:27):
I can't remember.
Is she from ohio?
No okay, I was gonna say Idon't remember that.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
But I really like her and like I still kind of keep
tabs on her and it was so weird.
One day there's a song that Iloved and I would hear it every
once in a while and it was justlike eerie, hauntingly eerie
song and whenever it would comeon I'd be like who sings this?
This is so cool, but you kindof just like let it pass.
Yeah, and one day I went on herinstagram and she had that song
(09:52):
on her post and I was likethere's so many things about her
that align.
But like I feel this like verydeep gratitude towards her, like
a kindred spirit yeah um, butyeah, I mean.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
So by the time we got to you, I think I had decided I
was going to use a donor yeah Icould be wrong about that, but
I think that is what happened soI remember actually quite
clearly, because I have memoryfor certain things right.
I remember the very because Iremember you were like just give
it to me straight, give it tome straight.
And I remember which I alwaysdo, even when not asked,
(10:26):
unfortunately, or whatever youwant to call it, um, I I
remember saying specifically thethe number of embryos we're
going to need to get a balancedembryo we're not going to get
from you at this age with thisovarian reserve and thus, if
we're looking at doing likemultiple and even without a
(10:46):
guarantee you know cycles, butone donor egg cycle we should be
able to get enough to have acouple of kids.
And I remember like it didn't,it wasn't even like I was trying
to convince you, because Inever try and convince people
about donor eggs.
I just I remember making thestatement.
I remember you just like beinggood to go, so I think your mind
was already there.
It was just a matter of someonesaying it, what you were
(11:09):
already thinking and you wereall over it and I remember.
I also remember how motivatedyou were there's no hesitation
and we were just go, go, go.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
And yeah, I'm excited to get into that conversation.
I've been very hesitant to talkabout it.
I don't know.
I think there's a couple thingsI haven't shared publicly about
my journey.
The first one is our firststillborn.
We had Angel, so she hadunbalanced chromosomes, so she
had Dandy Walker syndrome.
She was missing her cerebellum,she was in real, real bad shape
(11:41):
and we chose to deliver early.
And that's a very, verycontroversial topic and it's
just one that I'm ready to talk.
It's not like I'm sitting inshame Sure, it's.
Of course that's a hugeconversation, but I feel like
with my story, there's like somuch to bite off.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Oh, yeah, that I, you know, I just sort of.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
You've gone through like the full spectrum, wait
till Shepdog comes in tomorrow.
Like she and I were at Hudsonand she started talking about
like my story, and she's likeI've never had the cross section
I don't know anyone that thathas had the cross section of
things and she started listingthem and I was like hold on, let
(12:25):
me get my popcorn out like itis.
I mean all the way through tolike the ruptured sack, the you
know it was, it was wild.
So anyway, it's not that I Iwasn't coming out of the gate
like hey, we chose to do this,but also it's like I've just
been letting this unfold overtime.
So that's a conversation I haveto tackle.
(12:46):
And then the egg donorconversation is a huge one that
people in my life who need toknow know.
But I have friends who don'tknow.
I have, but it's not becauseI'm trying to keep a secret,
it's just private.
And I haven't really had.
I don't.
I'm not going to sit down witheveryone, go, so listen.
So four score and 20, you, fourscore and 20.
It's a thing where to me in mylife, it's no big deal because
(13:09):
this is what we do and this iswhat we've done, and it's Dane
and Kyle and I'm like I wouldn'ttrade them for anything, but
it's a big topic for otherpeople to digest right.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Well, 99% of people who hear your story, they don't
even know this stuff existsright.
Translocations and what theymean and and getting pregnant,
and oh, because of thetranslocation, the kind of
abnormalities that can ariseright because what they see with
you is this really well puttogether.
Smart, in control person likekeep coming.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
You got more adjectives in there.
I know you do.
I know you do come on everyone.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
That's why they listen to your show Because
you're incredible.
But the reality is Incredible.
People like yourself, who'vetried to do all the right things
, sometimes get handed this Todeal with, and I think most
people Would probably have givenup or just said you know what?
Not for me.
I could all go as far as saying, knowing that, yes, you were
(14:06):
advancing in age, but it wasyour husband who had the
translocation.
There's also a blame factorthat a lot of couples have to go
through right.
I mean, your marriage issomething that could have been
at risk through all of this.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
It was at risk and we did.
We separated for a year.
Actually I remember you tellingme that is another, this is
another topic in this.
I mean, the marriage topic cantranscend through anything,
right?
So, like, whenever you put alife stress on a marriage, it's
just going to exacerbate it.
But the blame thing with Brady,that was another thing too.
Like I wanted to be a mom, butI will tell you that when I
(14:39):
would think about us having afamily, the first vision that
would come to my head always wasBrady Croft with a kid on his
on his shoulders, cause he's ateacher, he's a football coach,
he was a football coach.
He comes from like a verytumultuous background and he
just deserved to be a dad and hewasn't going to take those
steps.
I mean, you know, men and kindof how you guys get a little
(15:01):
stuck in your ways and like, ofcourse, the shame factor, and so
I was.
I was just like for me too, butlike for him, I was like I'll
be damned if he can't have ahealthy child.
You know, and like again, youjust mentioned the whole um,
again, the balancedtranslocation here's another
topic I can help people with.
There are people at home thatare going to hear this and go
wait a minute.
Balanced translocation,robertsonian, uh, like
(15:24):
robertsonian or reciprocal, likeI know way too much about this
shit and don't tell me you havea 50, 50 like, don't give me the
like google machine odds ofhaving it's all different based
on which chromosomes fucked up.
And there's some woman in northor in upper upstate new york is
the one woman who like dealswith all these different like
trans, and she like takes themand it's I know too much.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
So I'm here to help.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yeah, I think the awareness is huge, right?
Yeah, and I think importantthat someone like you and I say
you specifically because you'reyou're a person that people
listen to you've had to gothrough it and you've not only
survived it but you've grownyour family from it, right?
Speaker 3 (16:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's, yeah, that's powerful
stuff.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
And you know what kind of gets me uh, I don't know
if excited is the right word,but it does give me a little
adrenaline is getting.
I want all of my stuff to beout there, public knowledge, and
I just want to protect and helpother people who maybe aren't
as strong.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
You know so, someone else who has to make that choice
of delivering early, someonewho's sitting there grappling
with, like an egg donor, but itfeels so weird to them because
they don't know anybody else,someone who would never in a
million years think they couldget a surrogate.
I want to get pulled into thosepeople.
I don't care about the.
You know, oh my God, did youlisten to this episode?
(16:40):
Carrie said she had an eggdonor and she, oh my God, she
delivered early.
She's fucking like, oh, okay,fuck, all y'all Like like, truly
, I don't care about that.
I want those people that I'msupposed to help to get closer
to me.
And so, until I tell all of it,how am I going to, you know?
And another thing too, my, andanother thing too I was really
(17:03):
concerned.
My number one, two and threeconcern was talking to Dane.
So I'm starting to talk to him,very elementary, very here and
there about it.
But that was my real like thepeople who needed to know my
core.
Okay, fine, but Dane, and nowKyle, that was my priority, not
like the phone tree, you know.
Yeah, all right, enough aboutme, dr Jane.
(17:25):
No that's great, though let'stalk about you, okay, so I have
a lot of questions here for you.
Some of which I'm not going toask because they're stupid One
that I'm very interested in.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Carrie, as you know, there are no stupid questions.
Oh wait, sorry, only stupidpeople, no ivm in vitro
maturation.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
I'm real curious about that and any other
technology that you see on thehorizon like what's coming up.
Are we gonna have, like youknow, these like manufactured
uteruses growing kids?
I mean, what's happening here?
Speaker 2 (18:00):
so two very separate things yeah yeah, of course.
By the way, the manufactureduterus thing is starting to like
pick up.
There's like there's, there'sactually research headed in that
direction.
I don't think it's going tohappen for a while, because you
think about what our uterus hasto go through in pregnancy and
what's involved.
It's not like you just need toset up an incubator and say,
here you go right um too manydynamic changes happening during
(18:23):
pregnancy, but it's certainlypossible, right?
I think now we've reached apoint in the world where nothing
truly is impossible.
It's just a matter of how longor how, or can we afford to
those kinds of things right.
But going back to IVM, it's beenaround for 20 years.
I actually, when I practiced inJersey 20 years I actually,
(18:49):
when I practiced in Jersey, wedid some of it.
I wasn't the biggest fanbecause it sort of takes to me
the more it takes out I thinkthe better parts of IVF but
leaves in the more challengingparts of IVF.
So basically, what you're doingwith IVM is you are taking
either a low dose of medicine oralmost no medicine and doing an
(19:09):
egg retrieval for just thesmall follicles, right?
So they're immature.
And you get these immature eggsand then you put them in a
media in your lab and then youmature them and once they reach
maturity, you fertilize them inyour lab and then you mature
them and once they reachmaturity, you fertilize them
right.
Well, you could do the exactsame thing by taking six or
seven more days of medication,right, like we do in regular IVF
(19:32):
, and then doing an eggretrieval for readily mature
eggs.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
So what's the point of doing it?
Speaker 2 (19:37):
So the point is really twofold.
It was more popular when solike anything else, it's an
option, right?
And I feel like when you're inthe fertility world, as you've
gone through and we've talkedabout, if someone gives you an
option, even if it's not rightfor you, it's oh.
This is different.
Maybe I should try this becausethat didn't quite work out for
(19:58):
me, right?
So I think in that sense itdraws people in and we would get
people coming to us simplybecause it's like, this is what
I want to do.
It's like, but that doesn'teven help you, right.
So what it does do is maybehelps you save some money on
medicine, but the overall costand then, on top of that, when
you grow these eggs in the laband you fertilize them, the
(20:26):
embryo quality you get is neveras good as what you would get in
a good IVF lab, like we wouldprobably say we have right.
So if a patient came to me andsays I want to do IVM, compared
to IVF, like, your success ratewith IVF and your ability to
have many kids down the roadwith frozen embryos with IVF in
the traditional sense is wayhigher than doing one IVM cycle,
right?
Also, with IVM, there was atime before we started doing
(20:46):
certain types of medication anddifferent types of triggers,
when they did regular HCGtriggers.
You get some patients who wouldhyperstimulate, so by doing IVM
you're retrieving those eggsearly so that they don't get
ovarian hyperstimulationsyndrome.
I hate to poo-poo anything, butI would simply say when you
just compare the outcomes, ivmoutcomes will never really touch
(21:07):
what you can do in a good IVFlab.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
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like just a random person goingthrough infertility.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Well, so most of the things that are coming up are
more on the lab side of things.
Now there's tons of stuff thatwe market in our field,
unfortunately to the patient.
So the patient's like, ooh, Iwant to try this, because
everything's really driven bywhat the patient wants.
Right, and if you can market ita certain way, then they're
going to want it right.
(23:21):
I think, um, some of the thingson the lab end, like, for
instance, semen analyses right,they now have, you know, ai
technology and these littledesktop I mean, god looks like a
big alarm clock, for lack of abetter term.
Well, people now don't evenhave alarm clocks.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
The old alarm clocks right.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Those big old alarm clocks.
You literally can put a semensample in there and it'll do
volume, concentration, motilityand morphology, which is looking
at shape of sperm, all throughits own AI-driven way of reading
it.
And they found it to be veryclose to what a human does.
But remember, even with humans,if the three of us are doing
(24:02):
semen analyses on the samesample, we're not going to get
the exact same number.
There's always some variabilitythere.
So, in order to almost levelthat playing field, these
machines do a wonderful job andit allows your embryologists and
andrologists to focus on otherthings rather than just, you
know, counting sperm a mostcommon misconception about
infertility that you'd love toset straight a lot of
(24:24):
misconceptions about infertility, right.
So I think one of the mostcommon things that almost every
patient brings up is stress,right, like, how much does
stress affect?
And we and we?
I think it's, I think it'saccepted now.
Stress affects everything,right, but then, to like, to
what tangible degree?
(24:44):
Right, stress in some ways isgood in some aspects of life.
Me trying to get here on time soI don't get the kerry croft
upset, that's a stress that youknow.
Maybe I broke the speed limit alittle bit but I didn't stop to
, you know, whatever.
Go through the drive-thrusomewhere, you know whatever.
No, but, like, I think stressand infertility is a little bit
overrated.
(25:04):
I mean, anyone trying to getpregnant, there's a stress
component to that, right.
So the reality is the level ofstress to cause, like
physiologic changes that wouldactually affect fertility, is so
high that your period wouldjust go away.
Right, that's when you talkabout the really high cortisol
levels and things that we don'treally check.
(25:26):
But we just know that inextreme, extreme ranges can
cause side effects.
Right, but I think that weoften put undue importance on it
.
Right, like, a lot of timesI'll be doing a consult and the
husband will say well, you know,she just took on a new job and
it's more hours and I just thinkshe's really been stressed out
and we think that's why and thatcould be, you know, could be
(25:47):
some contributing factor, but Idon't think it's usually the
cause.
That's where our basic testingand all that stuff comes in.
What about thyroid cause?
That's where our basic testingand all that stuff comes in.
What about thyroid?
Thyroid's important.
I mean, thyroid affectseverything.
So there was a time, 2010,there was a landmark paper that
looked at baby's braindevelopment, so baby's brain
(26:09):
development in pregnancy, andthey tested 18-month-old infants
.
Cognitive testing on18-month-old infants.
You can only imagine howcognitive intact an 18-month-old
is, you know.
No, they're in diapers so it iswhat it is right.
But they use that looking atmaternal TSH levels thyroid
stimulating hormone which iskind of the standard test for
thyroid and they tried tocorrelate.
(26:30):
At what point do we see adecrease in our cognitive
testing on these 18 months old,and they found like a level of
2.5, right so 2.5 IU per literTSH.
And for the last 15 years we'velike been stuck on this 2.5,
right so you could be normal.
And at 3.0, like oh, here's alow dose of thyroid medicine for
(26:52):
you.
I feel like I always felt thatwas overkill through all this
time.
Lately I think it was last yearthere's a paper that actually
sort of debunks that and they'veactually lowered that to four.
I think it's like 4.5, which isgood because now you have less
people taking medicine forsomething that they didn't
really need.
There's no harm to it outsideof, I guess, cost of med.
But that's one of those thingswhere all it takes is one paper
(27:16):
and people jump all over it, um,and then you look back like, oh
, that data really wasn't sogreat to begin well, I think
that's what's scary about itlike.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Look at the look at the whole breast cancer thing
with estrogen and the, the wholething that that one uh study
cause for for hormonereplacement therapy.
And so now we're finallyswinging back because so many
women are having problems.
And then they finally debunkedit to say, okay, this was like,
it was like one in 1,000 orsomething crazy like that.
But it's wild how the pendulumswings in medicine.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Well, so much of medicine is based on, so we call
it evidence-based medicine.
It's like a little field of itsown and all it is is all of the
data and all the papers and allthe things that we have.
You know, are theyevidence-based enough?
And it's really, really hardbecause there's so much gets
baked into statistics, right?
(28:08):
So you have this data set.
What statistical model are yougoing to use to evaluate that?
And really, what's the ultimategoal?
You know we all have the goalof trying to put good data out
there.
We all want to do somethingpositive for the field and
specifically for the issues thatwe're looking at.
But the reality is the numberone motivating factor when
you're doing research is I wantto get data and I want to
(28:28):
publish right Now.
Whether that's a low-levelpublication or a high-level
publication, that is dependenton a lot of things.
But a randomized, controlled,well-put-together trial, even
with all the intention of beingdone perfectly well, there's
going to be lots of bias bakedinto it.
And when these studies getpublished, especially when
(28:49):
there's the lack of any otherliterature that would say, oh
wow, there's equal literaturethat would maybe combat this.
Sometimes it's the only studyon this issue that was done,
well, you go with it.
And I'm not saying those arebad things, because usually
common sense does play into this.
You're not going to just startdoing something crazy because
the paper said so.
But on the other hand, there'slots of things over time that
(29:11):
we've debunked just because it'slike well, data's changed and
certainly there's fields wherethings shift back all the time
Dr Shepard is actually a greatperson because I know you're so
tight with her asking about,like, when they close people up
from C-section.
So in my residency we were toldsingle layer closure of the
uterus is the standard.
(29:33):
All the data said single versusdouble layer, no difference.
And then later on I find thatyou know, I don't do C-sections,
but oh, no, no, double layerclosures are better.
Or oh, they should close theperitoneum, that little filmy
layer that kind of keepseverything inside just below the
fascia.
We should close that up too.
So you have some docs who did,and they always did right.
(29:53):
They always have that70-year-old guy.
This is the way I've been doingit my whole career.
It doesn't matter what the datasays.
And look, I was right.
But, then two years later,something else says differently.
So that's just a very simpleexample of something that a
doctor would do over and overagain as an OBGYN.
But the thought of what shouldwe be doing, what's the right
way to do it, it goes back andforth.
(30:14):
You realize patients aredifferent and things vary and
your patient population isdifferent.
Maybe your operative skills areeven a little bit different.
And really it's not until youstart practicing and you see
patients and you go back in forthat second C-section or third
C-section that you start to seelike hmm, this is how I did it
in those patients versus thesepatients, and then maybe you get
your own way of doing it Right.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
It is funny.
And when you say you'repracticing medicine, I mean you,
straight up, are practicing.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Yeah, Like I mean, I thought of it that way.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Well, you are.
I mean, it's like so and that'sthat's.
There's nothing that's evergoing to change with that.
I mean it's like the beauty andthe, the terrifying thing,
because it's like.
I mean I guess it's all for the.
You know, innovation and theevolution of medicine.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
So there's always going to be innovation and
evolution.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
And it should always get better.
Yeah, when you look at IVFsuccess rates today, if you
looked at literally every singleyear for the past I don't know
15 years, the national IVFsuccess rate has crept up by
like half a percent, 1%, like itjust keeps creeping up, which
is nice to see, right, there'smore IVF being done every year,
(31:20):
but also the success rate hasgotten a little bit better.
I'm talking average across theboard.
So, I think those things aregood to see.
At the end of the day, the datais the data, right?
Doctors still have to makecommonsensical decisions based
on what's best for their patient.
So you know, after you said, Ithink WHI is a great example of
like data saying, oh, estrogenis bad, it causes breast cancer,
(31:44):
and then literally across theboard.
You see that was 2001 that thatdata came out.
I believe I was on my menopauserotation with a doctor named
Marjorie gas.
Um, dr Gas uh is um, she'samazing, um, and she was like
president of the North Americanmenopause society for like many
(32:05):
years.
She's she's a leader in thefield.
But here's me doing aone-on-one rotation with her,
literally the week after thispaper comes out, and her phone
was ringing off the hook ofpatients calling in saying what
should I do?
What should I do?
Right?
So I still remember.
I'll tell you a really quick,funny story.
So here I am, second yearresident working with her, and I
walk into a consult with apatient of hers, patients like
(32:29):
74, maybe like 78 years old,like a little bit older, close
to 80.
And I'm like, well, as you know, there's new, by the way, I was
very young, so I was a 23 yearold intern, 24 year old, second
year, second year resident.
So here I am, 24 year old youngman, with a 78 year old woman
who, by the way, looks amazingfor her age.
I still remember like I'm sureit was makeup and everything,
(32:51):
but she just looked really,really great.
Right, I'm telling her aboutthis new data and how maybe we
should think about taking youoff your estrogen.
And you know I'm doing what I'msupposed to be doing.
I remember she looks at me.
She goes Sonny, how old are you?
She called me Sonny, how oldare you?
And she I don't think she was.
We weren't in the South, Maybeshe was from the South.
I'm like I'm 24.
(33:17):
And she goes I'm 78.
Do you think?
And she swore do you think Igive a blah, blah, blah about
what this new research shows?
I'm doing fine, you know.
And she was.
I think her husband had passed.
So she's like I'm by myself.
I blah, blah, blah.
I live my own life and I'mthinking like, yes, but the data
says you know it's coming in myhead.
Like, yes, but the data says,you know, it's like coming in my
head like this is common senseof this woman who's 25 years
(33:39):
past, menopause is doing great.
Don't mess with her Right.
And obviously that comes withmaturity and knowing how to deal
with people and patients as I,as I matured in my career Right,
but I think that's an exampleof, yes, the data says one thing
, but it's not for everybody.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
I think that's an example of yes, the data says
one thing, but it's not foreverybody.
I would give anything to see a24-year-old Dr Jane and to hear
some of the shit you said.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
God, oh, it would be unbelievable.
Okay, so what are some things,though, that people can start
doing today that you believewould positively impact their
fertility journey?
Speaker 2 (34:14):
So a couple of things .
I think information is vital.
So a lot of people are sittingthere worried about it.
It's like anything in life youcan sit there and you can worry
about it or you can get thebasic information.
It may not be the answer thatyou want, but simply getting the
information is helpful in termsof how you feel about it and
your decision-making that comesfrom it.
So, talking to your doctor,getting an AMH level, simple
(34:37):
blood test, tells you you knownothing's perfect, but tells you
a lot about where you are inthe moment, about your ovarian
reserve.
Okay, but in terms of what canbe, what can they do without
seeing a doctor?
I mean, if you're in anunhealthy situation, whether it
be your, you know your bloodpressure, your weight, your your
, maybe your diabetic, maybeyour uncontrolled diabetic,
(34:59):
right?
Those are all things we can getbetter.
The reality is most of ourpatients are fine, right, most
of our patients are alreadytaking care of themselves, and
that's the hardest thing istrying to tell someone who's
already doing so.
Well, you're kind of just fine,and those are usually the
patients who want to know whatcan I do better?
Speaker 1 (35:17):
It's so beyond frustrating to, as a woman, to
do everything possible to behealthy and then to not be able
to do this thing and no one canget inside there to really
understand.
Sometimes there's certainthings you can know, but then
there's some things that arejust unexplained.
I mean, how infuriating.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
So you use the word unexplained.
That's like 40% of our privatepractice fertility patients,
right?
So back in New York City, in mycity clinic and my resident
whatever my fellowship clinicthat we used to run, it was
mostly like tubal factor, rightWomen who had blocked tubes
because of prior infections orthings like that.
(36:01):
Right, a ruptured appendix thatwasn't recognized until too
late, or something.
In the real world, when you'redealing with patients like
yourself and others,everything's already there,
right, it's sometimesunexplained.
There was a time when thestandard in the field, besides
doing a sperm test right, asemen analysis, an HSG they
would go to laparoscopy.
I mean, I learned how to dolaparoscopy with the fertility
(36:24):
doctor who literally would lineup seven to 10 cases on every
Friday morning, starting 7am,and we just put in scope after
scope and say, yep, looks okay.
Yep, looks okay, let's flushthose tubes.
You look back like we put allthose women through surgery.
I mean, I was in residency,what do I?
know, we put all those womenthrough surgery just to say it's
okay or oh, here's a littlespeckle of endo.
(36:44):
Didn't really explain anything,right.
So, um, we've taken a step backfrom invasive things, but the
basic tests are still what theywere 20, 30 years ago in terms
of how do you figure out whysomeone's having trouble getting
pregnant.
So I also think that's wherefertility treatment has gotten
so much better.
So, even though there's nocause, there's still the ability
(37:07):
to treat over it, whether it'swith IUI or IVF.
I think any time you havesomething that doesn't always
work like clockwork, we're notcats where you let us out for
one night and we have a litter.
That just doesn't happen withhumans.
Maybe it does Unintended, whoknows.
I don't even have a cat.
I don't know how I came up withthat.
Cats have litters, right?
Speaker 1 (37:30):
I just think you're just funny.
That shit's great.
Make sure we put that insomewhere we're more like pandas
.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
We don't procreate well as humans.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
No, apparently not, my God, you don't have to tell
me twice yeah, craziestfertility myth you've heard from
a patient, like anything wildthat people buy into or believe
in that you're like, okay, thatis wild.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Believe in is hard, because I think there's looking
to believe in anything that'sgoing to help them.
But I feel like every now andthen you have someone where they
pick it up online and there'ssome doctors out there who push
this stuff and push treatmentsfor it.
But like things like naturalkiller cells, right, like I'm
probably gonna offend someone bysaying this, but I don't think
that's a thing and I don't I'veI've still yet to see a patient
(38:15):
that that truly is the cause oftheir inability to get pregnant.
There's so many other factorsthat go into it that don't there
are.
There are physicians out there.
They measure natural killercells and say, oh, yours is blah
, blah, blah, we're going togive you this treatment or that
treatment, and I feel like someof that is.
I'll just say it.
I think it's hocus pocus forthe most part.
I just say it.
(38:39):
I think it's hocus pocus forthe most part.
I don't particularly agree withit.
Actually, I don't agree withany form of treatment that's
really expensive, that eitherhas never been shown to work or
for that patient probably won'twork, Because you know it's
always that risk reward, right,the reward is the pregnancy.
The risk is, I guess, medicalcost meaning like physical cost,
risk or financial financialcost.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
So you want to kind of weigh that speaking of cost,
do you see a world in which,like, fertility treatments are
kind of standardized, likethey're covered there's, there's
not this, oh my god.
By the way, not only can younot procreate, here's 15 grand
to go over, and that's sexy.
Here's another slap for youguys to deal with.
(39:18):
Do you think there's a world inwhich it's just going to be
part of your coverage?
It's fine.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
So I think it's going to have to work in two ways
Costs have to come downsomewhere and coverage has to go
up.
I don't think you can havecosts up here and the coverage
just meets it.
I do feel there is a.
Actually, we'll talk Columbus,ohio.
I came out here in 2013.
Probably less than 30% ofpatients had any fertility
(39:46):
coverage.
The other 70 plus were payingout of pocket.
Today, I'll tell you right now,specifically, 35% of our
patients have or I should do thereverse 35% are paying out of
pocket or have no coverage.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
That's good.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Yeah, the other 65% are working at companies or have
jobs that give them coverage.
Now, that's coming from theprivate world, right?
I think what you're asking isis there a situation where we'll
have almost government?
Speaker 1 (40:17):
No, not necessarily.
I just think for the most part,like that 35%.
When is it just kind of likeany other bill that you're
basically have, like I'm goingto pay a grand towards this and
everything else is covered, kindof thing.
So I guess it's just going tobe a matter of these other
companies kind of jumping onboard, awareness, continuing to
have the conversation, morepeople going through this.
(40:38):
It's wild.
Like the cost portion of it iswild.
So I'm glad to hear that a lotof companies have jumped on
board for that.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Oh yeah, a lot of companies have.
And remember, if companiesunderstand, if they want to hire
good people, if you want tohire young people, specifically
young women, you're going tohave to have something that
allows for, maybe, egg freezingor fertility treatment.
Now, granted, that means higherpremiums across the board for
everybody who works there, butthese companies are built to
(41:06):
absorb that and we're veryfortunate in Columbus, Ohio, to
have this influx of companiesand startups that are providing
that coverage.
You know, one of the thingsI've been able to do over the
years is I literally know.
You know, one of the firstquestions I ask is oh hey, where
do you work?
Right, and as soon as they tellme, I already know what their
coverage is.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
We actually in our office have a thing where, if
you make a new patientappointment, you just text in or
take a picture of yourinsurance card, send it in.
By the time I'm even seeing thepatient, we already have their
benefits.
So my conversation is gearedtowards not just what they need,
but, hey, this is kind of whatyou're also going to be looking
at in terms of cost.
I'm not going to offer themsomething that I know is not
(41:46):
going to be covered, unless ifit's absolutely necessary let's
say right, so, okay.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
So you are a pinnacle of you know, knowledge.
You're a geyser of information.
You are the king of offertility treatments in the city
.
This is, I speak, the truth.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
So do you have?
Any messages of hope there'sonly a couple of male fertility
providers, I know, but stillwe'll just go with it.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
We're just gonna go with it.
For anyone out there who'sstuck are there.
You know they feel like this issomething, that is, they're
looking down the road.
They're like, okay, I have afeeling this is like this is.
We're starting the journey,we're taking some steps.
Anything you'd like to to sayto them anything, any hope you'd
like to offer any sort of wordsof wisdom, just knowing that
you see this all the time.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
And you're the guy.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
Well, I mean, I don't want to say I'm the guy, but
there's in my mind're the guy,thank you.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
Thank you very much for saying that.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
No, I mean, obviously I, this is what I do, right?
So I believe when I saysomething to a patient, I
believe wholeheartedly in it.
Um, you know I'm probablyguilty of saying it like it is,
but I feel like that's important, especially when you're dealing
with things where people areputting their financial
livelihoods at stake.
Right, they're allowed to thinkwith their hearts.
I have to think with my headand help them sort of bridge
(43:03):
that gap a little bit right.
I think the most important stepis just getting started.
Right, just get the basics ofwhere you're at.
Once you get that sort ofstarting point, then you know
what your potential is.
I think the worst thing peoplecan do is just wait Now.
I'm not saying that you getmarried today and if you're not
(43:25):
pregnant, you know, by end ofsummer, oh my god, I gotta see a
fertility doctor.
Well, I guess if you're overthe age of 35, you don't wait
too long, but you know, ifyou're, if you're younger than
that, maybe give it, you know,six months or so, talk to your
OBGYN.
I think, ultimately, the thingthat actually just today I saw a
couple of patients as newpatients, who were in their
(43:46):
upper 30s, who literally justgot married.
Like within the past year, one'sgoing to get married this
summer.
It's not like they could havedone this years ago, right, but
this is where life brought themand this is how they met and
this is what they're going todeal with.
They're probably going to needextensive fertility help.
One of them, I can tell you, isgoing to need donor eggs
(44:10):
probably.
So, understanding as a patient,there's probably always going
to be a solution.
It may not be the solution youwant, but it will be a solution.
But you've got to get startedto even know where you're at.
And sometimes time in thesematters can hurt.
I think it also creates morestress, frustration, right.
So I think we're past the pointof having to wait a long time
(44:32):
to go see a fertility doctor.
There's enough of us now.
You can call and make anappointment, be seen and get
your information pretty quickly.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
Knowledge is power.
Yeah, it doesn't mean you haveto act on it or you feel pushed
into it, but it would just.
That would be my humble opinionto anyone is like you don't
have to.
It doesn't mean you have torush and get pregnant, yes, it's
just.
Knowledge is power andunderstanding your baseline, and
there's nothing wrong withdoing that.
And making an appointment withDr Jane at RGI.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
Well, you said pinnacle, that's our new name.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
Well, pinnacle.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Is that what you said , pinnacle?
Speaker 1 (45:06):
I said RGI.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
But initially when you said you're the pinnacle.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
Oh, you're the pinnacle.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
I'm calling you.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
Well, no, that just kind of happened to work well
together.
But, you are the pinnacle.
Speaker 3 (45:17):
And hence why the name is now Pinnacle.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
Dr Jane, it is always an absolute pleasure having you
in the studio.
My cup runneth over.
Thank you for being a part ofthis infertility series.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
It's totally my honor .
I think you're doing an awesomething.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
Thank you, and I think you're doing tons of
awesome things.
Can you come back again.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
You know, I feel like what I need to do is have an
office close to here and we canjust do this like a regular.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
I love you it's mutual, I love you if you're
still out there following yourgirl, following me on YouTube,
spotify, apple or wherever youget your podcasts and until next
time, keep moving, baby.
If you made it to the end ofthis episode, thank you.
It means more than I can putinto words.
And remember, please tag me onInstagram, shoot, shoot me a DM,
(46:01):
leave a comment, drop a review.
I read every single message andyour words remind me why this
work matters.
You can find more resources,ways to connect and everything
I'm building over atkerrycroftcom.
Thank you again for listening,thank you for holding space and
thank you for being part of thisconversation.
And until next time, keepmoving, baby.
Welcome back to the Keri Croft Show and to the next
episode in our infertilityseries.
Today's guest is someone who'splayed a huge role in my story
Dr Jane, one of the topfertility specialists right here
in Columbus and the person whohelped me create my beautiful
family.
But beyond his expertise, drJane is just a fun guy to talk
to.
He brings not only incredibleknowledge but also humor and
(00:24):
heart to a topic that, let's behonest, can feel really heavy
sometimes.
Our conversation waslighthearted, insightful and
full of the kind of real talk Iknow you're here for.
We dive into the fertilityworld what's changing, what
people should know and how.
Having the right team in yourcorner can make all the
difference.
And if you're in Ohio lookingfor a fertility clinic that
(00:44):
leads with compassion and care,I can't recommend Pinnacle
Fertility Ohio enough.
Dr Jane and his team are thereal deal, as always.
If this episode speaks to you,or if you know someone who could
use this kind of info andsupport, please share it, rate
it, review it, send it to afriend.
Every share helps spread theword and keeps these important
conversations moving forward.
(01:04):
To a friend.
Every share helps spread theword and keeps these important
conversations moving forward.
All right, let's get into it.
Here's my chat with Dr Jane.
Facing challenges, conceivingExperience, compassionate care
from leading fertility expertsat Pinnacle Fertility Ohio.
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Don't say I've never doneanything for you.
That's what you do.
You play Switzerland.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
Yes, incredible.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Or you go hey, chat, gpt.
What's up?
Motherfucker?
How do I answer this question?
Alright, here we go.
Dr Jane, did you have a hardtime getting in with all the
paparazzi?
Speaker 2 (02:33):
is all I want to know .
There's no paparazzi.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
It's on.
Welcome to the Keri.
Croft show it's been on.
This thing is on.
We got a lot of I got you.
I got you like audio texts andthe ladies.
I got it all.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
I thought we're wearing like headphones or
something.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Do you want to wear?
Speaker 2 (02:50):
them.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Uh, no, all the cool kids are done wearing the
headphones.
Yeah, you dropped your phone.
You're going to need that,cause I know someone's going to
call you.
There's going to be some kindof awkward.
Yes, there's going to be somekind of awkward text or phone
call that you're going to take.
I don't care, I actually likewhen you take calls.
Okay, so I'm giddy to have youhere because, number one, I just
(03:12):
love you, I get you, I love you, I am reeling.
We just started thisinfertility series.
We dropped the first episodethis morning and these women
have just outdone themselves thefirst episode this morning and
these women have just outdonethemselves and I'm just very
excited to shed light and bringspace to a topic that makes a
lot of people feel othered, uh,that makes a lot of people feel
(03:35):
shame, and they want to kind ofshrink in a corner until they
can kind of fix what's wrong.
So we're here to like bring,bring it out, bring it out, and
you're here, the king of theking of columbus all right.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
So we're gonna.
We're equal playing field.
Yeah, you, you have an uncannyway of making people feel really
good about themselves, and thenI'm gonna walk out of here, get
out in the real world, andsomeone's gonna let me know what
a big loser.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
I am not true, you know, because the thing about me
that I will stand by, is Ispeak the truth, like I don't
just make things up.
You definitely are known tolike if you were a little turd
and I didn't like you, Iwouldn't be like, hey, dr jane,
I'd just be like, hey, what's up, dr jane, I speak the truth,
okay.
So now, like I told you on mylist that I have teed up for you
(04:19):
I mean, we are teed up for thisyou're the modern day stork I
should have prepared, but no,you not preparing is what the
people need.
They need you off the rip, themodern day stork.
Do you think anyone has namedtheir children after you, or
maybe at least a middle name inhonor of you helping them have
their family?
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Okay, modern day stork.
By the way, great movie Ifyou've seen Storks.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
I great movie if you've seen storks, yeah I love
that movie.
Yeah, um, and actually I knowI'm not answering your question
when I saw that movie I thoughtof, like so many of my patients,
that I'm like man.
If they're watching this, whatdoes it feel like?
Right, because you know it'sall about trying to have a kid
um I'll tell you what it feelslike.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
It feels like shit.
Anytime you see anything thathas to do with trying to have a
kid and you're trying to have akid, you're like oh, here we go,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
That's what it feels like, and so many of my patients
are like school teachers havingto deal with kids all day,
right Like it's.
Yeah, it does mean a lot whensomeone does that.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
They did it.
Have they done it?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
I mean.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
How many?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
people.
I mean, ok, you give me,there's a ballpark, ballpark,
yeah.
So over the years, um, I canprobably immediately think of
like seven or eight.
That's amazing but, that's butthat's you know.
(05:37):
Here's the thing I'm sofortunate, I mean.
I mean I'm deeply connected toso many of my patients like you.
Right, you don't need to nameit, doesn't have to be Dane Jane
Croft.
That's a crazy way to name.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
by the way, you know what we really missed on that,
didn't we?
Dane?
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Jane For his sake, thank God, because you know.
First off, jane's not evenspelled right for most people I
like J-A-I N.
Well, you know, j-n-a is a verycommon name, right?
Not common, it's a popular name, maybe nowadays, yeah, and
that's got Jane in it.
No relationship there.
(06:18):
But I think once you use thename for that kid, it's a
permanent thing.
So these seven or eight kidsout there, they're going to be
like Mom.
What's up with that?
Why couldn't you spell it right?
Because I got to clarify.
Kids out there, they're gonnabe like mom.
What's up with that?
Why couldn't you spell it right?
Because I gotta clarify it foreverybody, right?
What's like?
Oh well, you know, 15 years agoI had this fertility doctor and
it's like I feel like as lifegoes on, the fertility thing
gets smaller and smaller andsmaller.
Right, because a huge thing atthe time.
So I would highly encouragepatients to think long term, not
(06:43):
in the short term, you, youknow, but those I, you know I'm
in a weird way.
As embarrassing as it is, itdoes make you feel like super,
makes you feel nice.
I mean.
I think all of our patientsappreciate us and I think that's
awesome.
That's obviously a next level.
I mean, am I supposed to payfor their college?
I don't know.
(07:03):
I don't know where myresponsibilities end, right?
So I have a little fund I haveto put on the side, just in case
if they'll come back Like hey,time to pay it up, buddy, like
oh really, you're so, it's sogood.
No, but they're great people.
I feel like I caught you at agood time.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Oh, I feel like when I caught you, you were already
thinking a certain way well see,I had already resigned myself,
um, that I wasn't gonna havekids like I'm.
So when I started sos, it waslike, okay, I'm not making a ton
of eggs here and brady has abalanced translocation.
So, like you put those twothings together it's not not
going.
I mean, if you look, juststatistically so.
it wasn't until I so I was, Iwas knee deep in SOS and I was
(07:50):
super fulfilled by that.
And then I went to Bali for aweek by myself to do yoga
training and I was 40 and I justremember feeling and this was
just my feeling Like I believethere are so many people who can
just have a life and not be amom and they're okay.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Carrie Croft in Bali by herself, is a white Lotus
episode waiting to happen.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Oh no, you should have seen it Like that's a whole
nother conversation that youand I would go on an ADD rate.
We would go on an ADD rampageover.
Can I have that as my entrysong?
I mean, I was like I was likeup in a mountain by myself.
It was so I had this holeinside of me and I was so like
God, I just I, you know, I couldnever quite close the door on
it.
And then I started thinking likewait, I would do an egg donor
(08:30):
in a second.
Like it was like one day itjust hit me I was like I don't
care, like for Brady to do asperm donor.
Oh, we tried that.
Like he was like what are theygoing to call me the uncle?
He, he couldn't wrap his malebrain around that.
Right.
But when I thought about it Iwas like wait a minute, I'm more
than okay with this.
So then I thought of it as likestatistically, I'm like hold on
(08:54):
.
Then my business brain, mywanting to figure something out
brain, also took over where I'mlike okay, I know we can get
normal embryos, I know we canget them.
And it also became like a thingI wanted to solve and so I knew
there was a little boy in theuniverse that was meant to be
mine.
I knew he was out there and Icouldn't.
(09:14):
I mean, as long as I was okaywith the donor and and luckily,
luckily, this, this donor thatwe found.
I know who she is because theygave me a little too much
information.
It's not hard to find right andthere were just a couple things
with her?
Speaker 2 (09:27):
I can't remember.
Is she from ohio?
No okay, I was gonna say Idon't remember that.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
But I really like her and like I still kind of keep
tabs on her and it was so weird.
One day there's a song that Iloved and I would hear it every
once in a while and it was justlike eerie, hauntingly eerie
song and whenever it would comeon I'd be like who sings this?
This is so cool, but you kindof just like let it pass.
Yeah, and one day I went on herinstagram and she had that song
(09:52):
on her post and I was likethere's so many things about her
that align.
But like I feel this like verydeep gratitude towards her, like
a kindred spirit yeah um, butyeah, I mean.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
So by the time we got to you, I think I had decided I
was going to use a donor yeah Icould be wrong about that, but
I think that is what happened soI remember actually quite
clearly, because I have memoryfor certain things right.
I remember the very because Iremember you were like just give
it to me straight, give it tome straight.
And I remember which I alwaysdo, even when not asked,
(10:26):
unfortunately, or whatever youwant to call it, um, I I
remember saying specifically thethe number of embryos we're
going to need to get a balancedembryo we're not going to get
from you at this age with thisovarian reserve and thus, if
we're looking at doing likemultiple and even without a
(10:46):
guarantee you know cycles, butone donor egg cycle we should be
able to get enough to have acouple of kids.
And I remember like it didn't,it wasn't even like I was trying
to convince you, because Inever try and convince people
about donor eggs.
I just I remember making thestatement.
I remember you just like beinggood to go, so I think your mind
was already there.
It was just a matter of someonesaying it, what you were
(11:09):
already thinking and you wereall over it and I remember.
I also remember how motivatedyou were there's no hesitation
and we were just go, go, go.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
And yeah, I'm excited to get into that conversation.
I've been very hesitant to talkabout it.
I don't know.
I think there's a couple thingsI haven't shared publicly about
my journey.
The first one is our firststillborn.
We had Angel, so she hadunbalanced chromosomes, so she
had Dandy Walker syndrome.
She was missing her cerebellum,she was in real, real bad shape
(11:41):
and we chose to deliver early.
And that's a very, verycontroversial topic and it's
just one that I'm ready to talk.
It's not like I'm sitting inshame Sure, it's.
Of course that's a hugeconversation, but I feel like
with my story, there's like somuch to bite off.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Oh, yeah, that I, you know, I just sort of.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
You've gone through like the full spectrum, wait
till Shepdog comes in tomorrow.
Like she and I were at Hudsonand she started talking about
like my story, and she's likeI've never had the cross section
I don't know anyone that thathas had the cross section of
things and she started listingthem and I was like hold on, let
(12:25):
me get my popcorn out like itis.
I mean all the way through tolike the ruptured sack, the you
know it was, it was wild.
So anyway, it's not that I Iwasn't coming out of the gate
like hey, we chose to do this,but also it's like I've just
been letting this unfold overtime.
So that's a conversation I haveto tackle.
(12:46):
And then the egg donorconversation is a huge one that
people in my life who need toknow know.
But I have friends who don'tknow.
I have, but it's not becauseI'm trying to keep a secret,
it's just private.
And I haven't really had.
I don't.
I'm not going to sit down witheveryone, go, so listen.
So four score and 20, you, fourscore and 20.
It's a thing where to me in mylife, it's no big deal because
(13:09):
this is what we do and this iswhat we've done, and it's Dane
and Kyle and I'm like I wouldn'ttrade them for anything, but
it's a big topic for otherpeople to digest right.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Well, 99% of people who hear your story, they don't
even know this stuff existsright.
Translocations and what theymean and and getting pregnant,
and oh, because of thetranslocation, the kind of
abnormalities that can ariseright because what they see with
you is this really well puttogether.
Smart, in control person likekeep coming.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
You got more adjectives in there.
I know you do.
I know you do come on everyone.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
That's why they listen to your show Because
you're incredible.
But the reality is Incredible.
People like yourself, who'vetried to do all the right things
, sometimes get handed this Todeal with, and I think most
people Would probably have givenup or just said you know what?
Not for me.
I could all go as far as saying, knowing that, yes, you were
(14:06):
advancing in age, but it wasyour husband who had the
translocation.
There's also a blame factorthat a lot of couples have to go
through right.
I mean, your marriage issomething that could have been
at risk through all of this.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
It was at risk and we did.
We separated for a year.
Actually I remember you tellingme that is another, this is
another topic in this.
I mean, the marriage topic cantranscend through anything,
right?
So, like, whenever you put alife stress on a marriage, it's
just going to exacerbate it.
But the blame thing with Brady,that was another thing too.
Like I wanted to be a mom, butI will tell you that when I
(14:39):
would think about us having afamily, the first vision that
would come to my head always wasBrady Croft with a kid on his
on his shoulders, cause he's ateacher, he's a football coach,
he was a football coach.
He comes from like a verytumultuous background and he
just deserved to be a dad and hewasn't going to take those
steps.
I mean, you know, men and kindof how you guys get a little
(15:01):
stuck in your ways and like, ofcourse, the shame factor, and so
I was.
I was just like for me too, butlike for him, I was like I'll
be damned if he can't have ahealthy child.
You know, and like again, youjust mentioned the whole um,
again, the balancedtranslocation here's another
topic I can help people with.
There are people at home thatare going to hear this and go
wait a minute.
Balanced translocation,robertsonian, uh, like
(15:24):
robertsonian or reciprocal, likeI know way too much about this
shit and don't tell me you havea 50, 50 like, don't give me the
like google machine odds ofhaving it's all different based
on which chromosomes fucked up.
And there's some woman in northor in upper upstate new york is
the one woman who like dealswith all these different like
trans, and she like takes themand it's I know too much.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
So I'm here to help.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yeah, I think the awareness is huge, right?
Yeah, and I think importantthat someone like you and I say
you specifically because you'reyou're a person that people
listen to you've had to gothrough it and you've not only
survived it but you've grownyour family from it, right?
Speaker 3 (16:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's, yeah, that's powerful
stuff.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
And you know what kind of gets me uh, I don't know
if excited is the right word,but it does give me a little
adrenaline is getting.
I want all of my stuff to beout there, public knowledge, and
I just want to protect and helpother people who maybe aren't
as strong.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
You know so, someone else who has to make that choice
of delivering early, someonewho's sitting there grappling
with, like an egg donor, but itfeels so weird to them because
they don't know anybody else,someone who would never in a
million years think they couldget a surrogate.
I want to get pulled into thosepeople.
I don't care about the.
You know, oh my God, did youlisten to this episode?
(16:40):
Carrie said she had an eggdonor and she, oh my God, she
delivered early.
She's fucking like, oh, okay,fuck, all y'all Like like, truly
, I don't care about that.
I want those people that I'msupposed to help to get closer
to me.
And so, until I tell all of it,how am I going to, you know?
And another thing too, my, andanother thing too I was really
(17:03):
concerned.
My number one, two and threeconcern was talking to Dane.
So I'm starting to talk to him,very elementary, very here and
there about it.
But that was my real like thepeople who needed to know my
core.
Okay, fine, but Dane, and nowKyle, that was my priority, not
like the phone tree, you know.
Yeah, all right, enough aboutme, dr Jane.
(17:25):
No that's great, though let'stalk about you, okay, so I have
a lot of questions here for you.
Some of which I'm not going toask because they're stupid One
that I'm very interested in.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Carrie, as you know, there are no stupid questions.
Oh wait, sorry, only stupidpeople, no ivm in vitro
maturation.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
I'm real curious about that and any other
technology that you see on thehorizon like what's coming up.
Are we gonna have, like youknow, these like manufactured
uteruses growing kids?
I mean, what's happening here?
Speaker 2 (18:00):
so two very separate things yeah yeah, of course.
By the way, the manufactureduterus thing is starting to like
pick up.
There's like there's, there'sactually research headed in that
direction.
I don't think it's going tohappen for a while, because you
think about what our uterus hasto go through in pregnancy and
what's involved.
It's not like you just need toset up an incubator and say,
here you go right um too manydynamic changes happening during
(18:23):
pregnancy, but it's certainlypossible, right?
I think now we've reached apoint in the world where nothing
truly is impossible.
It's just a matter of how longor how, or can we afford to
those kinds of things right.
But going back to IVM, it's beenaround for 20 years.
I actually, when I practiced inJersey 20 years I actually,
(18:49):
when I practiced in Jersey, wedid some of it.
I wasn't the biggest fanbecause it sort of takes to me
the more it takes out I thinkthe better parts of IVF but
leaves in the more challengingparts of IVF.
So basically, what you're doingwith IVM is you are taking
either a low dose of medicine oralmost no medicine and doing an
(19:09):
egg retrieval for just thesmall follicles, right?
So they're immature.
And you get these immature eggsand then you put them in a
media in your lab and then youmature them and once they reach
maturity, you fertilize them inyour lab and then you mature
them and once they reachmaturity, you fertilize them
right.
Well, you could do the exactsame thing by taking six or
seven more days of medication,right, like we do in regular IVF
(19:32):
, and then doing an eggretrieval for readily mature
eggs.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
So what's the point of doing it?
Speaker 2 (19:37):
So the point is really twofold.
It was more popular when solike anything else, it's an
option, right?
And I feel like when you're inthe fertility world, as you've
gone through and we've talkedabout, if someone gives you an
option, even if it's not rightfor you, it's oh.
This is different.
Maybe I should try this becausethat didn't quite work out for
(19:58):
me, right?
So I think in that sense itdraws people in and we would get
people coming to us simplybecause it's like, this is what
I want to do.
It's like, but that doesn'teven help you, right.
So what it does do is maybehelps you save some money on
medicine, but the overall costand then, on top of that, when
you grow these eggs in the laband you fertilize them, the
(20:26):
embryo quality you get is neveras good as what you would get in
a good IVF lab, like we wouldprobably say we have right.
So if a patient came to me andsays I want to do IVM, compared
to IVF, like, your success ratewith IVF and your ability to
have many kids down the roadwith frozen embryos with IVF in
the traditional sense is wayhigher than doing one IVM cycle,
right?
Also, with IVM, there was atime before we started doing
(20:46):
certain types of medication anddifferent types of triggers,
when they did regular HCGtriggers.
You get some patients who wouldhyperstimulate, so by doing IVM
you're retrieving those eggsearly so that they don't get
ovarian hyperstimulationsyndrome.
I hate to poo-poo anything, butI would simply say when you
just compare the outcomes, ivmoutcomes will never really touch
(21:07):
what you can do in a good IVFlab.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
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that's coming, but nothing thatlike would be of interest to
like just a random person goingthrough infertility.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Well, so most of the things that are coming up are
more on the lab side of things.
Now there's tons of stuff thatwe market in our field,
unfortunately to the patient.
So the patient's like, ooh, Iwant to try this, because
everything's really driven bywhat the patient wants.
Right, and if you can market ita certain way, then they're
going to want it right.
(23:21):
I think, um, some of the thingson the lab end, like, for
instance, semen analyses right,they now have, you know, ai
technology and these littledesktop I mean, god looks like a
big alarm clock, for lack of abetter term.
Well, people now don't evenhave alarm clocks.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
The old alarm clocks right.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Those big old alarm clocks.
You literally can put a semensample in there and it'll do
volume, concentration, motilityand morphology, which is looking
at shape of sperm, all throughits own AI-driven way of reading
it.
And they found it to be veryclose to what a human does.
But remember, even with humans,if the three of us are doing
(24:02):
semen analyses on the samesample, we're not going to get
the exact same number.
There's always some variabilitythere.
So, in order to almost levelthat playing field, these
machines do a wonderful job andit allows your embryologists and
andrologists to focus on otherthings rather than just, you
know, counting sperm a mostcommon misconception about
infertility that you'd love toset straight a lot of
(24:24):
misconceptions about infertility, right.
So I think one of the mostcommon things that almost every
patient brings up is stress,right, like, how much does
stress affect?
And we and we?
I think it's, I think it'saccepted now.
Stress affects everything,right, but then, to like, to
what tangible degree?
(24:44):
Right, stress in some ways isgood in some aspects of life.
Me trying to get here on time soI don't get the kerry croft
upset, that's a stress that youknow.
Maybe I broke the speed limit alittle bit but I didn't stop to
, you know, whatever.
Go through the drive-thrusomewhere, you know whatever.
No, but, like, I think stressand infertility is a little bit
overrated.
(25:04):
I mean, anyone trying to getpregnant, there's a stress
component to that, right.
So the reality is the level ofstress to cause, like
physiologic changes that wouldactually affect fertility, is so
high that your period wouldjust go away.
Right, that's when you talkabout the really high cortisol
levels and things that we don'treally check.
(25:26):
But we just know that inextreme, extreme ranges can
cause side effects.
Right, but I think that weoften put undue importance on it
.
Right, like, a lot of timesI'll be doing a consult and the
husband will say well, you know,she just took on a new job and
it's more hours and I just thinkshe's really been stressed out
and we think that's why and thatcould be, you know, could be
(25:47):
some contributing factor, but Idon't think it's usually the
cause.
That's where our basic testingand all that stuff comes in.
What about thyroid cause?
That's where our basic testingand all that stuff comes in.
What about thyroid?
Thyroid's important.
I mean, thyroid affectseverything.
So there was a time, 2010,there was a landmark paper that
looked at baby's braindevelopment, so baby's brain
(26:09):
development in pregnancy, andthey tested 18-month-old infants
.
Cognitive testing on18-month-old infants.
You can only imagine howcognitive intact an 18-month-old
is, you know.
No, they're in diapers so it iswhat it is right.
But they use that looking atmaternal TSH levels thyroid
stimulating hormone which iskind of the standard test for
thyroid and they tried tocorrelate.
(26:30):
At what point do we see adecrease in our cognitive
testing on these 18 months old,and they found like a level of
2.5, right so 2.5 IU per literTSH.
And for the last 15 years we'velike been stuck on this 2.5,
right so you could be normal.
And at 3.0, like oh, here's alow dose of thyroid medicine for
(26:52):
you.
I feel like I always felt thatwas overkill through all this
time.
Lately I think it was last yearthere's a paper that actually
sort of debunks that and they'veactually lowered that to four.
I think it's like 4.5, which isgood because now you have less
people taking medicine forsomething that they didn't
really need.
There's no harm to it outsideof, I guess, cost of med.
But that's one of those thingswhere all it takes is one paper
(27:16):
and people jump all over it, um,and then you look back like, oh
, that data really wasn't sogreat to begin well, I think
that's what's scary about itlike.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Look at the look at the whole breast cancer thing
with estrogen and the, the wholething that that one uh study
cause for for hormonereplacement therapy.
And so now we're finallyswinging back because so many
women are having problems.
And then they finally debunkedit to say, okay, this was like,
it was like one in 1,000 orsomething crazy like that.
But it's wild how the pendulumswings in medicine.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Well, so much of medicine is based on, so we call
it evidence-based medicine.
It's like a little field of itsown and all it is is all of the
data and all the papers and allthe things that we have.
You know, are theyevidence-based enough?
And it's really, really hardbecause there's so much gets
baked into statistics, right?
(28:08):
So you have this data set.
What statistical model are yougoing to use to evaluate that?
And really, what's the ultimategoal?
You know we all have the goalof trying to put good data out
there.
We all want to do somethingpositive for the field and
specifically for the issues thatwe're looking at.
But the reality is the numberone motivating factor when
you're doing research is I wantto get data and I want to
(28:28):
publish right Now.
Whether that's a low-levelpublication or a high-level
publication, that is dependenton a lot of things.
But a randomized, controlled,well-put-together trial, even
with all the intention of beingdone perfectly well, there's
going to be lots of bias bakedinto it.
And when these studies getpublished, especially when
(28:49):
there's the lack of any otherliterature that would say, oh
wow, there's equal literaturethat would maybe combat this.
Sometimes it's the only studyon this issue that was done,
well, you go with it.
And I'm not saying those arebad things, because usually
common sense does play into this.
You're not going to just startdoing something crazy because
the paper said so.
But on the other hand, there'slots of things over time that
(29:11):
we've debunked just because it'slike well, data's changed and
certainly there's fields wherethings shift back all the time
Dr Shepard is actually a greatperson because I know you're so
tight with her asking about,like, when they close people up
from C-section.
So in my residency we were toldsingle layer closure of the
uterus is the standard.
(29:33):
All the data said single versusdouble layer, no difference.
And then later on I find thatyou know, I don't do C-sections,
but oh, no, no, double layerclosures are better.
Or oh, they should close theperitoneum, that little filmy
layer that kind of keepseverything inside just below the
fascia.
We should close that up too.
So you have some docs who did,and they always did right.
(29:53):
They always have that70-year-old guy.
This is the way I've been doingit my whole career.
It doesn't matter what the datasays.
And look, I was right.
But, then two years later,something else says differently.
So that's just a very simpleexample of something that a
doctor would do over and overagain as an OBGYN.
But the thought of what shouldwe be doing, what's the right
way to do it, it goes back andforth.
(30:14):
You realize patients aredifferent and things vary and
your patient population isdifferent.
Maybe your operative skills areeven a little bit different.
And really it's not until youstart practicing and you see
patients and you go back in forthat second C-section or third
C-section that you start to seelike hmm, this is how I did it
in those patients versus thesepatients, and then maybe you get
your own way of doing it Right.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
It is funny.
And when you say you'repracticing medicine, I mean you,
straight up, are practicing.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Yeah, Like I mean, I thought of it that way.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Well, you are.
I mean, it's like so and that'sthat's.
There's nothing that's evergoing to change with that.
I mean it's like the beauty andthe, the terrifying thing,
because it's like.
I mean I guess it's all for the.
You know, innovation and theevolution of medicine.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
So there's always going to be innovation and
evolution.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
And it should always get better.
Yeah, when you look at IVFsuccess rates today, if you
looked at literally every singleyear for the past I don't know
15 years, the national IVFsuccess rate has crept up by
like half a percent, 1%, like itjust keeps creeping up, which
is nice to see, right, there'smore IVF being done every year,
(31:20):
but also the success rate hasgotten a little bit better.
I'm talking average across theboard.
So, I think those things aregood to see.
At the end of the day, the datais the data, right?
Doctors still have to makecommonsensical decisions based
on what's best for their patient.
So you know, after you said, Ithink WHI is a great example of
like data saying, oh, estrogenis bad, it causes breast cancer,
(31:44):
and then literally across theboard.
You see that was 2001 that thatdata came out.
I believe I was on my menopauserotation with a doctor named
Marjorie gas.
Um, dr Gas uh is um, she'samazing, um, and she was like
president of the North Americanmenopause society for like many
(32:05):
years.
She's she's a leader in thefield.
But here's me doing aone-on-one rotation with her,
literally the week after thispaper comes out, and her phone
was ringing off the hook ofpatients calling in saying what
should I do?
What should I do?
Right?
So I still remember.
I'll tell you a really quick,funny story.
So here I am, second yearresident working with her, and I
walk into a consult with apatient of hers, patients like
(32:29):
74, maybe like 78 years old,like a little bit older, close
to 80.
And I'm like, well, as you know, there's new, by the way, I was
very young, so I was a 23 yearold intern, 24 year old, second
year, second year resident.
So here I am, 24 year old youngman, with a 78 year old woman
who, by the way, looks amazingfor her age.
I still remember like I'm sureit was makeup and everything,
(32:51):
but she just looked really,really great.
Right, I'm telling her aboutthis new data and how maybe we
should think about taking youoff your estrogen.
And you know I'm doing what I'msupposed to be doing.
I remember she looks at me.
She goes Sonny, how old are you?
She called me Sonny, how oldare you?
And she I don't think she was.
We weren't in the South, Maybeshe was from the South.
I'm like I'm 24.
(33:17):
And she goes I'm 78.
Do you think?
And she swore do you think Igive a blah, blah, blah about
what this new research shows?
I'm doing fine, you know.
And she was.
I think her husband had passed.
So she's like I'm by myself.
I blah, blah, blah.
I live my own life and I'mthinking like, yes, but the data
says you know it's coming in myhead.
Like, yes, but the data says,you know, it's like coming in my
head like this is common senseof this woman who's 25 years
(33:39):
past, menopause is doing great.
Don't mess with her Right.
And obviously that comes withmaturity and knowing how to deal
with people and patients as I,as I matured in my career Right,
but I think that's an exampleof, yes, the data says one thing
, but it's not for everybody.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
I think that's an example of yes, the data says
one thing, but it's not foreverybody.
I would give anything to see a24-year-old Dr Jane and to hear
some of the shit you said.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
God, oh, it would be unbelievable.
Okay, so what are some things,though, that people can start
doing today that you believewould positively impact their
fertility journey?
Speaker 2 (34:14):
So a couple of things .
I think information is vital.
So a lot of people are sittingthere worried about it.
It's like anything in life youcan sit there and you can worry
about it or you can get thebasic information.
It may not be the answer thatyou want, but simply getting the
information is helpful in termsof how you feel about it and
your decision-making that comesfrom it.
So, talking to your doctor,getting an AMH level, simple
(34:37):
blood test, tells you you knownothing's perfect, but tells you
a lot about where you are inthe moment, about your ovarian
reserve.
Okay, but in terms of what canbe, what can they do without
seeing a doctor?
I mean, if you're in anunhealthy situation, whether it
be your, you know your bloodpressure, your weight, your your
, maybe your diabetic, maybeyour uncontrolled diabetic,
(34:59):
right?
Those are all things we can getbetter.
The reality is most of ourpatients are fine, right, most
of our patients are alreadytaking care of themselves, and
that's the hardest thing istrying to tell someone who's
already doing so.
Well, you're kind of just fine,and those are usually the
patients who want to know whatcan I do better?
Speaker 1 (35:17):
It's so beyond frustrating to, as a woman, to
do everything possible to behealthy and then to not be able
to do this thing and no one canget inside there to really
understand.
Sometimes there's certainthings you can know, but then
there's some things that arejust unexplained.
I mean, how infuriating.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
So you use the word unexplained.
That's like 40% of our privatepractice fertility patients,
right?
So back in New York City, in mycity clinic and my resident
whatever my fellowship clinicthat we used to run, it was
mostly like tubal factor, rightWomen who had blocked tubes
because of prior infections orthings like that.
(36:01):
Right, a ruptured appendix thatwasn't recognized until too
late, or something.
In the real world, when you'redealing with patients like
yourself and others,everything's already there,
right, it's sometimesunexplained.
There was a time when thestandard in the field, besides
doing a sperm test right, asemen analysis, an HSG they
would go to laparoscopy.
I mean, I learned how to dolaparoscopy with the fertility
(36:24):
doctor who literally would lineup seven to 10 cases on every
Friday morning, starting 7am,and we just put in scope after
scope and say, yep, looks okay.
Yep, looks okay, let's flushthose tubes.
You look back like we put allthose women through surgery.
I mean, I was in residency,what do I?
know, we put all those womenthrough surgery just to say it's
okay or oh, here's a littlespeckle of endo.
(36:44):
Didn't really explain anything,right.
So, um, we've taken a step backfrom invasive things, but the
basic tests are still what theywere 20, 30 years ago in terms
of how do you figure out whysomeone's having trouble getting
pregnant.
So I also think that's wherefertility treatment has gotten
so much better.
So, even though there's nocause, there's still the ability
(37:07):
to treat over it, whether it'swith IUI or IVF.
I think any time you havesomething that doesn't always
work like clockwork, we're notcats where you let us out for
one night and we have a litter.
That just doesn't happen withhumans.
Maybe it does Unintended, whoknows.
I don't even have a cat.
I don't know how I came up withthat.
Cats have litters, right?
Speaker 1 (37:30):
I just think you're just funny.
That shit's great.
Make sure we put that insomewhere we're more like pandas
.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
We don't procreate well as humans.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
No, apparently not, my God, you don't have to tell
me twice yeah, craziestfertility myth you've heard from
a patient, like anything wildthat people buy into or believe
in that you're like, okay, thatis wild.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Believe in is hard, because I think there's looking
to believe in anything that'sgoing to help them.
But I feel like every now andthen you have someone where they
pick it up online and there'ssome doctors out there who push
this stuff and push treatmentsfor it.
But like things like naturalkiller cells, right, like I'm
probably gonna offend someone bysaying this, but I don't think
that's a thing and I don't I'veI've still yet to see a patient
(38:15):
that that truly is the cause oftheir inability to get pregnant.
There's so many other factorsthat go into it that don't there
are.
There are physicians out there.
They measure natural killercells and say, oh, yours is blah
, blah, blah, we're going togive you this treatment or that
treatment, and I feel like someof that is.
I'll just say it.
I think it's hocus pocus forthe most part.
I just say it.
(38:39):
I think it's hocus pocus forthe most part.
I don't particularly agree withit.
Actually, I don't agree withany form of treatment that's
really expensive, that eitherhas never been shown to work or
for that patient probably won'twork, Because you know it's
always that risk reward, right,the reward is the pregnancy.
The risk is, I guess, medicalcost meaning like physical cost,
risk or financial financialcost.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
So you want to kind of weigh that speaking of cost,
do you see a world in which,like, fertility treatments are
kind of standardized, likethey're covered there's, there's
not this, oh my god.
By the way, not only can younot procreate, here's 15 grand
to go over, and that's sexy.
Here's another slap for youguys to deal with.
(39:18):
Do you think there's a world inwhich it's just going to be
part of your coverage?
It's fine.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
So I think it's going to have to work in two ways
Costs have to come downsomewhere and coverage has to go
up.
I don't think you can havecosts up here and the coverage
just meets it.
I do feel there is a.
Actually, we'll talk Columbus,ohio.
I came out here in 2013.
Probably less than 30% ofpatients had any fertility
(39:46):
coverage.
The other 70 plus were payingout of pocket.
Today, I'll tell you right now,specifically, 35% of our
patients have or I should do thereverse 35% are paying out of
pocket or have no coverage.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
That's good.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Yeah, the other 65% are working at companies or have
jobs that give them coverage.
Now, that's coming from theprivate world, right?
I think what you're asking isis there a situation where we'll
have almost government?
Speaker 1 (40:17):
No, not necessarily.
I just think for the most part,like that 35%.
When is it just kind of likeany other bill that you're
basically have, like I'm goingto pay a grand towards this and
everything else is covered, kindof thing.
So I guess it's just going tobe a matter of these other
companies kind of jumping onboard, awareness, continuing to
have the conversation, morepeople going through this.
(40:38):
It's wild.
Like the cost portion of it iswild.
So I'm glad to hear that a lotof companies have jumped on
board for that.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Oh yeah, a lot of companies have.
And remember, if companiesunderstand, if they want to hire
good people, if you want tohire young people, specifically
young women, you're going tohave to have something that
allows for, maybe, egg freezingor fertility treatment.
Now, granted, that means higherpremiums across the board for
everybody who works there, butthese companies are built to
(41:06):
absorb that and we're veryfortunate in Columbus, Ohio, to
have this influx of companiesand startups that are providing
that coverage.
You know, one of the thingsI've been able to do over the
years is I literally know.
You know, one of the firstquestions I ask is oh hey, where
do you work?
Right, and as soon as they tellme, I already know what their
coverage is.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
We actually in our office have a thing where, if
you make a new patientappointment, you just text in or
take a picture of yourinsurance card, send it in.
By the time I'm even seeing thepatient, we already have their
benefits.
So my conversation is gearedtowards not just what they need,
but, hey, this is kind of whatyou're also going to be looking
at in terms of cost.
I'm not going to offer themsomething that I know is not
(41:46):
going to be covered, unless ifit's absolutely necessary let's
say right, so, okay.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
So you are a pinnacle of you know, knowledge.
You're a geyser of information.
You are the king of offertility treatments in the city
.
This is, I speak, the truth.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
So do you have?
Any messages of hope there'sonly a couple of male fertility
providers, I know, but stillwe'll just go with it.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
We're just gonna go with it.
For anyone out there who'sstuck are there.
You know they feel like this issomething, that is, they're
looking down the road.
They're like, okay, I have afeeling this is like this is.
We're starting the journey,we're taking some steps.
Anything you'd like to to sayto them anything, any hope you'd
like to offer any sort of wordsof wisdom, just knowing that
you see this all the time.
Speaker 2 (42:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
And you're the guy.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
Well, I mean, I don't want to say I'm the guy, but
there's in my mind're the guy,thank you.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
Thank you very much for saying that.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
No, I mean, obviously I, this is what I do, right?
So I believe when I saysomething to a patient, I
believe wholeheartedly in it.
Um, you know I'm probablyguilty of saying it like it is,
but I feel like that's important, especially when you're dealing
with things where people areputting their financial
livelihoods at stake.
Right, they're allowed to thinkwith their hearts.
I have to think with my headand help them sort of bridge
(43:03):
that gap a little bit right.
I think the most important stepis just getting started.
Right, just get the basics ofwhere you're at.
Once you get that sort ofstarting point, then you know
what your potential is.
I think the worst thing peoplecan do is just wait Now.
I'm not saying that you getmarried today and if you're not
(43:25):
pregnant, you know, by end ofsummer, oh my god, I gotta see a
fertility doctor.
Well, I guess if you're overthe age of 35, you don't wait
too long, but you know, ifyou're, if you're younger than
that, maybe give it, you know,six months or so, talk to your
OBGYN.
I think, ultimately, the thingthat actually just today I saw a
couple of patients as newpatients, who were in their
(43:46):
upper 30s, who literally justgot married.
Like within the past year, one'sgoing to get married this
summer.
It's not like they could havedone this years ago, right, but
this is where life brought themand this is how they met and
this is what they're going todeal with.
They're probably going to needextensive fertility help.
One of them, I can tell you, isgoing to need donor eggs
(44:10):
probably.
So, understanding as a patient,there's probably always going
to be a solution.
It may not be the solution youwant, but it will be a solution.
But you've got to get startedto even know where you're at.
And sometimes time in thesematters can hurt.
I think it also creates morestress, frustration, right.
So I think we're past the pointof having to wait a long time
(44:32):
to go see a fertility doctor.
There's enough of us now.
You can call and make anappointment, be seen and get
your information pretty quickly.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
Knowledge is power.
Yeah, it doesn't mean you haveto act on it or you feel pushed
into it, but it would just.
That would be my humble opinionto anyone is like you don't
have to.
It doesn't mean you have torush and get pregnant, yes, it's
just.
Knowledge is power andunderstanding your baseline, and
there's nothing wrong withdoing that.
And making an appointment withDr Jane at RGI.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
Well, you said pinnacle, that's our new name.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
Well, pinnacle.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Is that what you said , pinnacle?
Speaker 1 (45:06):
I said RGI.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
But initially when you said you're the pinnacle.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
Oh, you're the pinnacle.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
I'm calling you.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
Well, no, that just kind of happened to work well
together.
But, you are the pinnacle.
Speaker 3 (45:17):
And hence why the name is now Pinnacle.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
Dr Jane, it is always an absolute pleasure having you
in the studio.
My cup runneth over.
Thank you for being a part ofthis infertility series.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
It's totally my honor .
I think you're doing an awesomething.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
Thank you, and I think you're doing tons of
awesome things.
Can you come back again.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
You know, I feel like what I need to do is have an
office close to here and we canjust do this like a regular.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
I love you it's mutual, I love you if you're
still out there following yourgirl, following me on YouTube,
spotify, apple or wherever youget your podcasts and until next
time, keep moving, baby.
If you made it to the end ofthis episode, thank you.
It means more than I can putinto words.
And remember, please tag me onInstagram, shoot, shoot me a DM,
(46:01):
leave a comment, drop a review.
I read every single message andyour words remind me why this
work matters.
You can find more resources,ways to connect and everything
I'm building over atkerrycroftcom.
Thank you again for listening,thank you for holding space and
thank you for being part of thisconversation.
And until next time, keepmoving, baby.
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