May 2, 2025 • 56 mins
Joe Apgar wasn’t thinking about infertility at 21.
He was just trying to survive cancer.
But years later — in the middle of dating, adulting, and trying to figure out what his future might look like — the reality hit: cancer hadn’t just changed his body… it had rewritten his path to parenthood.
In this episode, Joe shares what it’s like to navigate male infertility after cancer, and how the emotional weight of “undetectable sperm count” followed him into relationships, and self-worth.
Oh — and we also go all the way in on how awful the sperm bank experience is. From traumatizing vibes to beige waiting rooms and zero humanity, Joe and I dream up what it would look like if someone actually revolutionized the process.
This episode is honest, hilarious, and really got me in my feels. Joe’s story is a reminder that love, family, and healing don’t always show up how you thought they would… but when they do, it’s magic.
🎙️ Share this with a friend, a partner, or anyone who needs to feel less alone in their story.
#TheKeriCroftShow #InfertilitySeries #MaleInfertility #OpenAdoption #ParenthoodAfterCancer #InfertilityAwarenessMonth #1in6 #SayTheThing #SpermBankTraumaIsReal #YouAreNotAlone #DatingWithInfertility #AdoptionJourney #JoeApgar
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
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Joe Apgar, you're back, I'mback, you're back.
Joe Apgar (02:12):
I know, and your new digs?
I was in your house last timewe did this, I know you're an OG
.
Keri Croft (02:16):
Not everyone can say they started from the bottom.
They started in the house, thewhole office.
They started from the house.
Joe Apgar (02:22):
Now we're here, I know, and you had a dog.
I was worried the dog was goingto come in.
So yeah, this is an upgrade andyou got Kate.
Keri Croft (02:29):
And we're back, I know, can you believe it?
So how are you feeling about mydigs here?
Joe Apgar (02:33):
I like them.
Does it make you feel cool?
Keri Croft (02:43):
Thank you.
Joe Apgar (02:44):
A lot of colors, a lot of like gemstones, a lot of
just neat stuff.
Keri Croft (02:49):
Where's the art?
Joe Apgar (02:50):
from.
It looks like maybe it's fromthe same artist.
Keri Croft (02:53):
Well, so there's a mishmash going on, but the three
paintings there are from anartist, a local artist here.
His name's Daniel Okay.
And then these boxing glovesare a girl in Chicago.
So I try to support local allthe time, try to do like a
quarterly installation.
Joe Apgar (03:06):
This is fairly new.
Keri Croft (03:07):
Okay, so I'm feeling it.
Joe Apgar (03:09):
I like it.
Yeah, I like it.
Keri Croft (03:11):
So your world is wild, you are a CEO.
Isn't that kind of make youfeel like you know, like you're
a CEO, it's kind of fucking coolright.
Joe Apgar (03:20):
Um, yeah, it doesn't make me feel any sort of way.
I mean it's I feel proud, justbecause of our organization and
the impact our organization has.
Keri Croft (03:27):
But yeah, but you're a ceo.
You're like, I'm joe the ceo.
I know it's fucking cool dude,it's uh, yeah, I mean it's fun.
Joe Apgar (03:35):
It's it's a lot of pressure, it's a lot of fun it's
.
You know you get to engage withincredible people and you know,
I think, get the opportunity toshare my story and hear other
people's stories on a daily,weekly basis and you know, it's
inspiring.
I get to do really inspiringwork, get to meet.
I've always been passionateabout young people you know have
(03:55):
gone through cancer and becauseI went through cancer when I
was young and I think it's justfascinating to like see what
people who've gone throughsomething like that are doing
with their lives and it's such asort of crucial moment and I
think I've never met someone atany age that had gone through
cancer that it didn't inform therest of their life in some way
(04:16):
in a really positive way I canimagine.
Keri Croft (04:18):
Yeah, and so we're here today to talk about
infertility.
Joe Apgar (04:21):
Yes.
Keri Croft (04:22):
And it's funny how and I you know I've said this a
million times, but I am a hugebeliever in energy and the
universe and there is this wholeintangible network that happens
around all of us.
And this is another example.
I was doing this series and Ithought of you because I'm like
man Joe.
He told his story, he's a male.
(04:42):
It's so impactful.
And then I kind of got busy andyou DM'd me and said I need to
see your new space.
I wanted to see the new dicksand I was like, okay, but isn't
that funny how all that worksout, because it's like you
probably saw that too and werelike I'd love to you know
subconsciously.
And now here we are.
Joe Apgar (04:59):
I know Well.
I saw your Instagram story andthought yours was the first
podcast.
I think I had shared like thatpart of my cancer story at any
real depth.
I think it was one of the firstconversations on your podcast
about that topic and just beinga male and that topic this topic
doesn't always get a male voice, and so I remember, like
(05:25):
finishing that podcast and Iwent home and I was like, oh,
that was a podcast and I waslike I had a chance to talk
about infertility for the firsttime, you know, on a real
platform, and so it was coolyeah, and I'm so thankful that
you are doing it again, becausefor the people who maybe didn't
watch the first podcast with you, let's tell them a little bit
about so.
Keri Croft (05:40):
You're in college, you get diagnosed, and let's
focus on sort of when yourealized that you weren't going
to be able to have kidsbiologically, kind of start with
that.
Joe Apgar (05:50):
Yeah.
So it sort of started quick.
So I was 21.
It was my last semester ofcollege I get diagnosed with
testicular cancer.
So I got diagnosed on a Fridaynight and I had surgery 12 hours
later on a Saturday morning.
A surgeon had come up fromWashington DC and it was this
really quick thing.
And I think the thing I wish,looking back, was that I had
(06:14):
gotten a second opinion andpressed pause and because I
think things could have turnedout, you know, differently and
so you know what happens I hadthis first surgery and then I
was in the hospital recoveringfor a few days, leave the
hospital and I come back for aone week checkup of you know
how's the sutures doing and thestaples and all this stuff.
Doctor leaves and a nurse comesin and she says you know, have
(06:37):
you thought about sperm banking?
I said nope, never even heardthat term before.
21 year old college kid.
Like is the last thing I wasthinking.
And she said well, you know,with your type of cancer and the
treatment, it's something youshould sort of think about and
read about.
And so I just left it at thatand so I was at Penn State.
(06:58):
So I was in State College, whichis dead center Pennsylvania,
made a few phone calls, did alittle research online, talked
to my parents and it was sort ofjust something we were like I
guess we should do this, becauseit was suggested Like there
wasn't really a, it was not athoughtful conversation, like
you should do this, and here'swhy it was like this thing's
(07:20):
available if you want to do it,which I think is far too common.
You know it's a very passivesecondary thing.
The primary things are cancer,right, which is understandable.
The secondary thing is all theimpacts of cancer, and fertility
can certainly be one of them.
And so I drove to Pittsburghbecause that was the closest
sort of reproductive sperm bank.
I mean, if someone couldreinvent the sperm bank
(07:45):
experience, it would beincredible.
Because you walk in.
First of all, you're 21, likethis 21 year old college guy,
right, I'm like probably injeans and sneakers and wearing a
Penn State t-shirt and I rollin and it's like beautiful young
lady hands you a little cup,says it says walk three doors
down on the left, walk in, comeback when you're done.
(08:08):
Like no instructions, no, likeyou know.
They're like wash your hands.
I'm like oh okay, thanks.
So you go in and it's like asign on the wall magazines under
the sink Like what are we doinghere?
So you're like, all all right,I'll see what we got.
Like you know, is it, you know,maxim magazine or what is it?
(08:29):
I kid you not, it was a bunchof playboys from the 1980s.
Like someone's grandpa died andthey donated them to the sperm
bank.
That's what happened, likethat's had to be what happened,
and so, like the experienceyou're just like this is this is
not how it's going to get done.
So you know, you give thesample to the person and put
(08:50):
your name on it and you leaveand drive.
You know I drive three hoursback to school and I'm like that
was weird.
Week later get a call.
It was on a Monday around 5 30PM, Cause I remember exactly
where I was standing.
We had navy blue carpet in ourshitty little Penn State
(09:10):
apartment and we had a singlebedroom, three guys living in
this apartment.
The place was always a mess.
I remember exactly where I wasstanding and I answered on my
BlackBerry Pearl, Remember those?
And I answered on my BlackBerryPearl, my blackberry pearl,
remember those and answer myblackberry pearl.
Hey, this is, you know so and so, from you know pittsburgh,
whatever reproductive center,your sperm count is undetectable
(09:32):
in the sample.
Do you want us to store it,because that's also part of it,
right, it's like the testing ofit and then the storage of it.
Do you want us to store?
Store it?
And I was like I don't know.
You said it's undetectable.
Like what should it be?
Like what should the count be?
I don't know.
Like what's a good number?
(09:54):
It's like you know, like 75million.
It's not like 10 is a goodnumber, it's like 50 million or
like something crazy, right.
And I was like, oh, it's like50 million or like something
crazy, right.
And I was like, oh, it's likeundetectable.
Like there's not even one.
Like we found no sperm at all.
And I was like, is that afailed test?
Like did I do something wrong?
(10:16):
Right.
And you got to remember I stillhave cancer, I just had surgery
.
And now it's like, wait, issomething else wrong?
Like what's going on?
No, nothing's wrong.
Like you might just not be ableto produce sperm.
What's that mean?
Like you won't be able to havebiological kids.
So why don't you just let usknow by the end of the week if
(10:36):
you want us to store it or not.
It's $800 if you want to storeit.
Like that, like that was aphone call.
I remember sitting therethinking like do I tell my
parents?
Like do I call them now?
Do I?
Is this like information youjust casually pass on?
Like next time you see yourparents?
Like, is this like an emergencyphone call?
(10:57):
Like what is it like?
What is this news?
Because at this age that's notwhat you're thinking about, it's
sort of not front of mind.
And so I didn't tell my parentsright away.
So I told my parents like thenext time I saw them, which was
a few days later.
So now I got the results fromthe sperm bank and they said it
(11:17):
was undetectable and they'reasking me if I want to store it.
It was interesting.
My parents most supportivepeople in the world, you know
they're like you know how do youfeel?
I said I don't know how I feel,Like I don't know how I'm
supposed to feel, I don't know.
I know it's not a good thing,but I didn't feel like this
sense of loss in the momentbecause I was still sick, Like I
(11:43):
was still dealing with cancerand this was like the secondary
thing, Like I still hadn'tgotten through the primary thing
and so it didn't set.
It was one of those things thatdidn't like settle in right
away, and so that was sort ofthe moment and sort of the
period in which I think Irealized some version of the
future just shifted and it'slike that's like the grief part,
(12:05):
I think, or like the sense ofloss, and I think it happens in
a lot of different areas ofpeople's life.
Right, Like you get some pieceof news that just alters like
this future vision that you hadin your head.
It's not necessarily good orbad.
Right, it's like just change.
You know people don't fearchange.
(12:25):
Like people fear loss.
Like that's what I thinkstresses people out.
I was still seeing it as change, not loss, in that moment.
And the additional context ismy dad's adopted and we've known
that since.
You know, my sister and I knewthat, since we were able to have
(12:46):
memories like that was never asecret, and so that sort of
piece of information was alwaysfloating out there too.
So it was not like I can't havekids, it was like how my family
is going to develop in thefuture.
Just shifted, probably, butstill not a lot of answers.
Keri Croft (13:04):
Well, and when you're 21, I mean, the last
thing you're thinking about isbuilding your family.
At that moment in time, you'rejust a, like you said, you've
got your Penn State t-shirt on,looking for the next place to
hang out.
It doesn't probably settle in,really, until you're looking or
you meet Jill and then you'relike okay, you're picturing your
life with kids.
Then you have to really like seeit, but having having your dad
(13:27):
being adopted, what a greatthough that's, that's great
because it was so a normal thingthat you always grew up seeing
and knowing and understanding asa possibility.
Joe Apgar (13:38):
Yeah, and I think you know hundreds of ways to make a
family and I think the ideathat you know my dad was adopted
, we never felt like a certainway about it.
We never wondered, like he wasnever interested in sort of
pursuing the path of likefinding out who his biological
parents were and he sort of knewsome stories about them.
Who knows how true they were.
It's interesting.
(13:59):
But the other complexity is andif you talk to any young adult
who's ever had cancer, it's likesuch a formidable time in your
life and so you go into sort ofthe dating scene at some point
and you got to like explaincancer.
You're going to have to explainthis infertility thing at some
(14:19):
point.
Cancer is an awkward topic fora young person.
It's like when you introducethat into the conversation like
first date, fifth date, you justhope they know, they hope they
figure it out when you introducetesticular cancer, because the
last thing you need to betalking about on your first date
is testicles, right?
Keri Croft (14:40):
Or the first thing.
Yeah maybe the first thing itdepends on who you're dating,
which is what ended up happeningwith my wife.
What I was going to say is tellthe story about how you just
kind of like put it all outthere.
Joe Apgar (14:53):
I graduated college, I moved to Columbus and I was
still on different medicationsand it was weird being 22 and
sort of my care was transferredto the James.
It's just an awkward thing, butI tried to be as normal as I
could and go out and so I endedup dating a few women.
Until then I met, finally metmy wife at a Halloween party at
(15:14):
this great house.
Someday I'm going to buy it onNeil and Fifth, we meet at this
house party.
It's a Halloween party,exchange phone numbers, you know
whole thing.
And then I call her like threedays later like I would like to
take you out on a date.
I don't know if that happensanymore, by the way, but it was
just like very formal, like, andI I can like see myself doing
(15:36):
it like that's an importantphone call and I like sat down
in my chair in my apartment andlike sat up with like good
posture to make sure, like myvoice was hitting it and like,
hello, I would like to take youon a date, you know, sort of
thing.
So we go on this date, we go toBossy, shout out to Bossy in
Victorian Village, like bestfirst date place, we sit down.
(15:58):
I just looked right at her andsaid I have a whole bunch of
stuff I'm about to tell youbecause I just want to get it
out of the way.
Like I really like you, I canlike tell like there's good
energy here, but we got to getpast like a few things.
I just got to lay it out and soI gave her the like 45 minute.
Just here's like how the lasttwo years have gone for me and
(16:22):
sort of all these things.
You know you're trying to pickup body language, like how is
this person receiving thisinformation?
And it was sort of in some justmet with okay, great, like
thanks for telling me.
You know her dad had had cancerand so she had some experience
with that.
And you know she sort ofmentioned in the dinner she's
(16:44):
like I always wanted kids andI've always wanted kids as well.
And she's like I've alwayswanted kids but I've never
dreamt of being pregnant.
I've never had that sort ofdream.
Not meaning she didn'tnecessarily want to be pregnant,
but she's just like that wasnever like a part of how she
sort of had dreamed of kids.
And in the moment you're likeshe's bullshitting me, like
(17:05):
she's just kind of meeting themoment here.
I later figured out that it waslike totally true, kind of a
match made in heaven from thatstandpoint.
Keri Croft (17:11):
Yeah.
And then did you guysimmediately just know adoption
was just the path.
Joe Apgar (17:16):
Yeah, we did talk to some doctors locally because
there's some things you can doas a male to try to sort of
spare your fertility and I thinkfor me one of the unique things
was they can do this surgerywhere they actually like open up
your testicle and try to Iforget the what the procedure is
(17:36):
actually called but like takesperm out of the testicle right
Surgically.
There's a lot of risk in doingthat.
You know I already had oneremoved and so you know the risk
of something happening to thesecond one is is high.
And you've been still alreadydealing with like tons of
hormone stuff.
Anyway, like my testosterone'salways been way off and and I
never had a baseline before,right, I'd never had my sperm
(17:58):
tested before, I never had mytestosterone tested prior to to
having the cancer, and so we getpost-cancer and you know I have
no sperm count and mytestosterone I mean I was 22, 23
, 24 years old and I was testingat like 150.
And like a normal male isprobably 450 to 1,200,.
(18:20):
You know, and I was alwaysfeeling the impacts of that I
was tired, was tough in the gym,like just tough energy, all
that stuff and so there wasalready stuff indicating like
it's not normal anyway andsomething's wrong.
And so there's a path we didn'twant to go down and so we chose
adoption and I think adoptionwas always our first choice and
(18:41):
we wanted to like close the dooron the biological piece.
By meeting with those doctors,and we learned a lot too.
It was really interesting froma scientific standpoint all the
different ways you can approachinfertility, which you've
covered, you know, on thispodcast.
The scientific miracles thatcan happen right now, you know,
as a result of research, andjust the amazing feats of
(19:04):
medicine is is pretty incredible.
And but adoption was our firstchoice and and so we started,
started down that path.
Keri Croft (19:11):
And Cora's how old?
Joe Apgar (19:13):
She's six and a half.
Keri Croft (19:14):
How is she doing?
She's so she's so cute.
I just saw that photo of youguys at.
That's a tearjerker, the oneyou got.
You're like singing to her andlike it's like's like a framer,
it's like one of those you lookat and you can almost feel the
movement in the photo.
Joe Apgar (19:26):
Yeah, she's awesome.
She's six and a half.
She's in kindergarten.
We have a new dog.
I don't know if she's like adog sister or a dog mom,
whatever she calls herself, butyou know her dog.
She named the dog Annie.
Dog's like her best buddy.
She's got some awesome friends.
(19:47):
She's loving school.
She's got great teachers, greatfriends at school.
She loves dance, so she dances.
She's in the softball.
She's everything you know youwant for a six-year-old.
She's got it.
She's a ball of energy.
She's happy.
Keri Croft (20:03):
What are the questions from her at six Like
how is it starting to sort ofmanifest?
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Joe Apgar (21:48):
Yeah, you know, it's not questions, because we have
an open adoption I can sharejust a little bit about like
that process, because it'sreally interesting how we came
to it and we didn't start at anopen adoption.
So Nationwide Children'sactually has a course.
It's called Adoption Academy.
It's eight weeks long.
It's like every Monday nightfor three hours and you just
(22:10):
learn everything about theadoption process and a couple
people had recommended that tous.
I mean, you learn everythingfrom the different types of
adoption.
You know through foster caresystem, private adoption,
international adoption, allthese things To.
If you're going to adopt, yougot to go meet like a
pediatrician.
If you're going to adopt, yougot to go meet like a
(22:32):
pediatrician, like, and you gotto do these things in advance
because you can't just show upone day and be like, oh yeah, we
need a doctor now for the baby,and so you sort of learn all
those things.
You know the money aspect of it, all that stuff.
So we start an adoption academy, thinking let's do an
international adoption, let's doan international adoption
(22:57):
because we don't want to dealwith complexities of knowing too
much, like that was sort of ourinitial thought.
Like that, that was the simplepath and it was really
interesting because after likethree or four weeks we we could
both sort of feel ourselveschanging our mind about
international adoption.
There's some complexities withinternational adoption, so
there's some countries who won'tlet parents adopt if one of the
(23:18):
parents has had cancer.
So just full stop, you've hadcancer, sorry, you can't adopt
from our country.
We were like, oh, but like I'mhealthy now, it doesn't matter.
Like you had cancer, it couldhave been 50 years ago.
You had cancer, you can't adoptfrom this country and other
medical things that sort ofprevent.
(23:39):
But that wasn't what changedour mind.
What changed our mind was wehad a couple over and people are
always so generous with theirnetwork and so we had shared
that we were starting to pursueadoption and starting to do the
paperwork and all this stuff.
Some friends of friends saidyou should meet this couple.
They live in UA, you shouldmeet this couple.
(24:01):
And so I reached out and said,hey, would you and your wife
want to come over for dinner?
We've never met, but here's howwe're connected.
Would you guys want to comeover for dinner?
We've never met, but here's howwe're connected.
Would you guys want to comeover for dinner?
We'd love to ask you questionsabout your adoption journey.
So you know, they said yes,they come over for dinner.
We sort of hit it off, we havea great dinner and they had an
(24:24):
open adoption.
And so at dinner I rememberasking, I asked the wife, I said
, like tell me why you have anopen adoption?
Like, isn't that complex?
Doesn't it bring all sorts ofmaybe awkwardness down the road,
like uncomfortableness?
And she said, yeah, it does.
(24:44):
But what's?
Is there anything better thanone more adult in your child's
life that loves her or him, likeone more person in the world
that unconditionally loves thiskid and you might have a
relationship with them?
And it was like like I'll neverforget that moment because,
(25:05):
like we flipped, like they leftour house and we were like, let
let's have an open adoption.
Like let's figure out how tohave an open adoption.
We ended up pursuing ouradoption with a private agency,
so we wanted a private domesticinfant adoption.
That was our goal.
So we actually went with anorganization called Just Choice,
(25:27):
which was run by this amazingwoman, molly Thomas, here in
Columbus, and her expertise isactually same-sex couple
adoptions, because most same-sexcouples come to the adoption
process with adoption as theirfirst choice and that's a
(25:48):
different experience than havinggone through maybe failed IVF
and different things and you endup at adoption and you've had
trauma and loss and all of thesethings.
You know a same-sex couple.
A lot of times they go right toadoption and like it's just a
different experience and we weresort of similar right.
We were coming sort of as ourfirst first choice.
(26:11):
So we go through the process.
The process is long and hardand it's like intrusive and
they're like you know the statewants to know how much money you
have.
And like the fire departmentcomes to your house and they're
like you got to make surethere's a fire extinguisher
between the oven and the door ofyour house.
We're like what?
(26:32):
Like you got to make surethere's a plan on your wall, an
escape plan, we're like for thebaby that can't read.
Like what, what are we doinghere?
And these are just the rules,right, so you get through all
the rules who made?
Keri Croft (26:45):
you know who made it's like so funny, who?
Joe Apgar (26:47):
makes, makes the rules, get through the process.
We get home study approved andthen you know you put together a
book of like your family andwhat you're about and because it
gets shown to prospective birthmothers who then choose, you
know I want to place my you knowson or daughter with this
family and then you know youwould meet and all that stuff.
(27:08):
And it can be a long process.
It can be two weeks.
It can be two weeks, it couldbe two years, it could be five
years.
And we went about six months andweren't hearing much.
It's interesting emotionallybecause you feel judged, right
and then kind of in the worstway, like someone's not choosing
you, like you know that there'speople that are looking at that
(27:31):
book of me and my wife pictureson the front, like we had
pictures taken, like all thisstuff, like someone's not
choosing you.
I was like why, and like youdon't know why and and the
reason people get chosen is alsocan be silly it's like oh,
there was a dog on the frontcover and I always wanted a dog,
so I'm going to choose thisfamily.
So there's no rhyme reason.
But you still feel reallyjudged.
(27:53):
We had these pictures taken bya photographer and with the
little sign you know, like withthe letters, and it's like we're
adopting, like date, tbd,whatever.
And we decided to post it onsocial media.
So our social worker had saidlook, you guys know a lot of
people Like social can be sortof iffy with this stuff, but you
(28:15):
might just consider posting it.
So my wife posts a picture onFacebook and Instagram it's
probably still on there actuallyand it says like we're home
study approved, whatever, comingyou know, hopefully, tbd,
whatever.
(28:36):
So she's on her way to abachelorette party in Miami.
So she posts it while she's atthe airport on a Friday night.
Gets on the plane in Columbusto Atlanta, where her sort of
stopover is.
Gets to Atlanta she's got avoicemail Turns on her phone.
She's got a voicemail Turns onher phone.
She's got a voicemail Unknownnumber.
Hey, this is so-and-so.
I heard you're interested inadopting.
(28:57):
I'd like to talk to you.
So red flags go up becausethere's a lot of scams in
adoption, because there's moneyinvolved.
Anywhere there's money, there'sscams, right?
So she calls me and she's likeI don't know what to make of
this.
I was like I don't know.
They left their number likejust call back, like I'll call
(29:18):
for you if you want, like.
So she ends up calling.
It was a ob-gyn in gahanna.
He was late, late to Fridaynight family dinner at a
restaurant with my old roommatein Columbus.
So the OB that had called Jilland the father were partners in
(29:45):
a practice and they werecelebrating the father's
birthday at a restaurant withthe whole family celebrating the
father's birthday at arestaurant with the whole family
.
So the OB was my old roommate'sbrother-in-law and my old
roommate and I.
He met his wife the nightbefore.
I met my wife both at Halloweenparties.
So he comes to dinner late.
(30:07):
Why are you late?
You'll never believe this.
But a young woman walked inwith her grandmother as we were
closing and she's 36 weekspregnant and she's perfectly
healthy.
And I don't know what to doBecause normally this gets
turned over to the state.
Normally it's not this clean,normally there's other sort of
(30:29):
issues involved.
She's fit, she's healthy, thebaby's healthy and so his wheels
are spinning.
My old roommate, calvin and hiswife show David the picture and
the story.
So he called like at dinner OnMonday we met the birth mom in a
(30:54):
conference room, sort ofarranged at their practice.
So in the conference room it wasCora's birth mom and her
grandmother the birth mom'sgrandmother.
I've never been more nervous inmy entire life.
Anticipation we sit down, weend up talking to him for a
(31:16):
couple hours, learned so muchLike such a wonderful family.
Cora's birth mom is such awonderful person.
Two and a half weeks later,cora was born.
We were in the hospital.
My wife cut the umbilical cord.
She was in the delivery room.
I was outside eating a sandwich.
You know the chime like ringsin the hospital.
I was like I bet that's it.
(31:36):
I was like I bet they'll let mein any minute and it turns out
they got a few things to dobefore they let someone like me
in there and it was wonderful.
I mean, the story is like crazybecause our birth mom's
grandfather was also a cancersurvivor and we shared an
oncologist Like there's like allthese crazy connections and we
(31:58):
had decided that we wanted arelationship with her and she
decided she gets to choose thattoo.
She decided she would open arelationship with us, so we had
them over for brunch.
Cora was born December 17th andwe had them over for lunch or
brunch, maybe like January 2ndor something, and we had taken
Cora home from the hospital andthere's a lot of complexities in
(32:22):
it.
Like Cora's birth mom put CoraGrace Apgar on the birth
certificate, which is not normal.
Like a lot of times in anadoption it will just say the
original birth certificate willsay baby, then last name of the
birth mother, and then you haveto go get it changed.
It's like the original birthcertificate says something
(32:43):
different than she put, like ourname on it, which is like a
simple thing, but like amazing,right, um, we've had this open
adoption.
We've had a picture of Cora andher birth mom immediately
post-birth Cora's birth momholding Cora in her hospital
(33:05):
gown and Cora wrapped in one ofthose blankets that they seem to
still use from like 1925.
It was like a framed pictureand from the day we brought Cora
home, we've always just toldher you grew in birth mom's
belly and you grew in our hearts.
She's just always and she asksabout her.
(33:27):
Jill and Cora went and met upwith her birth mom and she now
has a son of her own.
They met at the park a coupleweeks ago.
You know my wife and her textperiodically and share pictures
and all this stuff.
The coolest moment happened afew years ago.
I forget which year it was,maybe 2022.
Cora's birth mom was gettingmarried to this great guy.
(33:49):
Not Cora's birth mom wasgetting married to this great
guy, not Cora's birth father.
We had never met this guy andthey invited us to their wedding
and then they asked if Corawould be the flower girl and we
were like, so honored, but youknow there's a lot of dynamics
there.
So we went to the wedding andCora got to be the flower girl
(34:12):
and it was such a coolexperience for Cora and her
birth mom and family and ourfamily.
We have these amazing picturesfrom it, and so it's just been a
really cool experience.
Keri Croft (34:27):
You got me on my feels this morning.
Joe Apgar (34:31):
Yeah, it's pretty magical, it's.
I don't think we could have abetter sort of experience and
relationship and you know, weultimately decided, like you
know, a couple of years ago.
There's a lot of complexitiesin the, the legal paperwork of
adoption and, and you know, your, your home study, which makes
you sort of available to adopt,can renew, and it's easier to
(34:55):
renew it is than it is to likestart it all over again.
So we kept renewing it, likejust in case we wanted to adopt
again, and we decided we didn't.
Our family felt complete withthe three of us and you know you
hop on a southwest flight, youjust take one little row there,
you know just the three of usand so it's uh, it's been like
(35:15):
this amazing journey and storyand you know, I feel like I'm a
really big advocate for adoptionin whatever form it takes.
But I sort of later learned Ithink before Cora was born, but
like well after Jill and I hadstarted dating and sort of
(35:36):
became serious.
I went through this period ofthat.
I actually started to getretested my sperm.
So I probably went like eighttimes At some point.
I had just decided and it'sexpensive, so that's you know,
you've covered that a little biton the podcast Like infertility
(35:57):
is obnoxiously expensive and itdoesn't, it just adds up.
And it's like it's like thepunches keep rolling in
infertility and they come justfrom all these angles.
And then it's like the worst islike someone sticks this big
ass bill in front of you.
Like, oh yeah, you got to paythis before you walk out the
door because insurance isn'ttouching it.
You're like, wait, insurancedoesn't cover this.
(36:20):
Like no, insurance doesn't givea shit about infertility.
Keri Croft (36:25):
Like it's crazy and that has to change I mean it's
some of it's gotten better tosome extent.
But, like I was just talking toDr Jane in here, he's like the
one of the head reproductivespecialists in the city and I
guess it's now like there's 35%of the companies don't cover.
Like when I was at AT&T back inthe day, I remember looking
(36:46):
through and I was like desperate.
There was an adoption creditfor $5,000.
Okay, thank you, but nothing tocover any meds or anything.
And I mean the.
The one-two punch forinfertility is literally the,
the emotional wreckage.
And then you take the financialand you just like knockout
punch.
Joe Apgar (37:06):
It's crazy, it's crazy, it's expensive, and it
expensive and it's I'm sure it'scost prohibitive for families,
oh it is.
Keri Croft (37:13):
And then you.
That's why I'm a surrogacyadvocate, you know, and I'm an
advocate for, uh, foregoing theagency and doing it on your own,
like what you just said aboutthe magic of and it's not just
social media with my, the waythat I kind of view it, but
social media is a like rocketfuel, it's powerful but leaning
into your network.
No one loves you more than thepeople that know you.
(37:33):
And then, moving outward.
It's kind of the same, in thesame vein as the adoption
process, because you're likesitting and waiting and looking
and thinking, oh, is thisperfect person in the universe?
But a lot of people don't evenconsider surrogacy as an option
for themselves because they'renot them, they're not the
Kardashians.
But you can do that.
(37:54):
It's accessible if you get alittle, you know, if you get
resourceful and creative.
So I think back to your point.
I mean I love the idea of theopen adoption.
I know not everybody'scircumstances are going to be as
pure and clean and no, but I ama huge whether it's egg, sperm
donation, adoption, I just thinktransparency for someone's
(38:16):
identity and again, I'm in mylane here.
However you want to handle it,you handle it, but it's like,
okay, it's maybe awkward,uncomfortable for the adults,
but like who's it really about?
I never thought about that,that spin, though we had our
little first choke up heretogether.
When you said that about likeone more person to love, I
didn't even duh, like I wasthinking more, like okay, like
(38:39):
the child deserves to know.
But my God, you put that withit and you're like how can you?
How can you not?
Joe Apgar (38:47):
Yeah, yeah, it's an interesting I mean such a simple
but powerful statement.
It's uh, I mean love is a verypowerful thing and it's
interesting like love for achild, you know, is that
different than love for a spouse?
And like what are thecomplexities with that?
And I remember thinking we hadthe pediatrician who
(39:12):
unfortunately passed away a fewyears ago after her own battle
with cancer, but she was theperfect pediatrician for us.
She had adopted, she was reallyreally helpful and so we saw
her.
I think on the third day, secondor third day after we took Cora
home, we walked in.
She was so matter-of-fact, shewas probably, like you know,
(39:35):
late 50s, had just been doingthis for 25, 30 years.
We'd sort of got wind that likeshe's the person that people
who adopt like should try to gosee.
So we walk in.
She's like Mom, dad, how youdoing, like retired, you know,
but we're so excited and we'renervous and like all the things
(39:56):
right of first-time parents.
She said, mom, how you feeling,my wife's like great, you know,
it's just so awesome and so inlove with this child.
And she goes Mom, you shouldfeel like just this immediate,
eternal, like, do anything foryou love.
She's like Dad, it's going totake you 30 days.
(40:18):
I was like what do you mean?
She said you think you love,you know, have this
unconditional love right now.
And you do.
She's like in 30 days it willclick for you.
She's like it happens withevery.
She's like in 30 days it'llclick for you.
She's like it happens withevery.
She's like I I watch it withthe moms and the dads and she's
like it's different and like atday 30, like we, you know, you
(40:41):
go back like for the monthcheckup and she's like, how are
you doing?
and I was like it clicked likeyou know I'd do anything for
this, for this little girl, andso it's been fun, it's it's been
such a experience.
I would do anything for cora.
I do think you know I wastalking earlier like I had gone
through this period where I wasgoing to like the sperm bank to
(41:03):
get tested.
And I wasn't going to get testedbecause I was hoping to have
biological children.
I was going to get testedbecause I wanted to see if the
thing that I thought was wrongwith me fixed itself.
And like that is like anothertrauma of people who've gone
through like a medical thing andcancer is obviously the example
(41:24):
I use.
But, like you know, when itgoes through cancer it's like
you didn't do this to yourself.
Like something, somethinggenetically happened, some you
had a genetic mutation,something was wrong with your
genetics.
Like that's what happened.
And then you have this otherthing happen.
It was like something was wrongwith me again.
(41:44):
I was like, did that thing thatwas wrong with me get fixed?
Like that's what I alwayswanted to know.
Like you know, and maybe that'slike the successful, like type
a gotta have every box checkedand all this stuff.
And I remember talking to one ofthe people in the right
reproductive facility and she'slike why, like, is a doctor
sending you here?
(42:04):
Like why do you keep cominghere?
And I'm like I want to see if,like this changes, like if I
like, if my body will likefigure itself out.
And had a really niceconversation with her and she's
like this, like it has nothingto do with, like if something's
wrong with you, like like I quitthinking about it that way,
like you're not broken right, soI just stopped going.
(42:27):
What like?
Why am I doing this?
Like it's like causing my ownhead trash.
It was like I wanted to keepgoing back and I'd walk out of
there and be like nope, stillgot no sperm count.
I just finally settled on itdoesn't matter, nothing's wrong
with you.
Keri Croft (42:45):
But to hear that from a male perspective is so
powerful because you hear itfrom the every woman that sat in
your chair during the monthduring the series.
There's an element of that isis that I'm broken.
There's something wrong with meyou're.
You have this insatiable desireand need to figure out what is
(43:06):
wrong with you and what has gonewrong in your body.
You know.
I mean in.
Joe Apgar (43:11):
In 99 of time it's from the female yeah, yeah, we
talked about that the first timewe talked.
It's like if you just scan theroom full of couples and you
know you a hundred percent oftime you go, oh, they have
infertility.
Like it's not the dude, right?
So there's just like this weirdassumption that, like you know,
(43:31):
it's never the guy and that'swhy I've talked about it before
and started on your podcast.
I've had a lot of differentchances now to share like this
part of my cancer story.
I've met a number of people whoyou know similar situations to
me or close enough where youknow they figured out it was
like male infertility.
(43:52):
There's a sense of guilt fromthe male side.
I think there's a huge sense ofloss and what I've heard like
from people on your podcast isthis huge sense of loss.
I'm broken, I'm letting youknow the world down Like that is
like the narrative I kind ofhear from a female point of view
(44:14):
.
I think the male point of viewbecomes very like I'm supposed
to like protect and take care ofmy family and do all these
things and I'm the one who can'teven help create one Like I'm
at fault.
Keri Croft (44:26):
Yeah, and you have this whole.
There's a masculine yeah, andyou have this whole.
There's a masculine angle whereit's so much more difficult, I
think, for a man going through.
It's very, very hard for women,don't get me wrong, but I just
think the man gets like, youknow, it's just very hard for a
man to open up and be vulnerableabout such a traditionally
(44:48):
masculine.
And so Chad Underwood, who wasin here too and he had opened up
, he was talking about that andthe way people talk about like
oh yeah, you know the real broculture around, like getting
your wife pregnant and like thethings guys say, and like it's
all this, you know, puffing yourchest out.
So it's so important that men,because there's so many going
through this alone, see you, see, chad, because I know I give my
(45:11):
men a hard time on here, but Ilove y'all.
I love y'all.
I really do so.
I'm so thankful that you andyour busy schedule, your busy
CEO schedule, chose to come inhere and talk.
Joe Apgar (45:25):
That's important.
Keri Croft (45:26):
Now there's two more things we need to talk about
before we close out.
Okay, Number one.
Back to your point around.
When you were asking Jill outon a date and you thought it
through, you sat down, you putyour posture up like you
presented yourself.
I think we need to have a quickchat with the peeps out here.
Yeah.
People need to get back to thata little bit.
(45:48):
Yeah, I think like in today'sworld.
This whole like ghosting andlike only texting that.
I just think that's so brokedown.
Yeah.
So maybe people should take moreof like the chivalrous circa
1990 way of asking somebody outon a date.
Joe Apgar (46:07):
I'm a huge proponent of that.
I so I I've never been on adating app because it was like
it was like with jill beforethose really took off.
So I'm kind of fascinated by uhdating app culture and like our
people that are on it and youknow some friends that are on.
I always ask I'm like, it'slike show me how that works.
(46:29):
Like I'm like, so you just likeswipe and then, if they've
swiped, you get like this bigboom like balloons on your phone
and then you just start talkinglike how does that work?
I'm like, do you ever call them?
Like do you ever make it to acall?
Keri Croft (46:43):
and like no, see, that's like you message.
Joe Apgar (46:45):
and then you go to a coffee shop and like, hope they
show up and people get ghostedand I think and this is like the
you know efficiency side of mybrain it's so much simpler just
to call someone.
You could call someone and sayI would like to take you out for
coffee or putt-putt or whatever.
(47:08):
Like I would like to take youout and get to know you a little
better.
Like is that something you'reinterested in?
The conversation's done in like12 seconds.
Keri Croft (47:16):
Would putt-putt be in your top five?
Oh, I love putt-putt, you knowmy son has got me real into
putt-putt right now, yeahputt-putt's cool.
So here's the thing.
I think what we I think whatneeds to happen out here
everyone coming from the womanwho's been married for 20 years
I think there needs to be ahybrid.
So, from what I'm seeing andhearing from my friends who are
(47:36):
on the apps, the apps is a Imean it's fantastic right so you
can actually just sort peopleout.
I think there's a lot of valuethere.
But we're going straight fromthe app into coffee or drinks.
You're wasting so much timethere, so I think app and then
talk on the phone for a minutethis whole this whole talking on
like why people don't do that.
So if I were doing it I would beon the app you would use that
(47:59):
so I would.
You have.
You have to.
You'd have to use an app atsome point, don't you think I
don't know?
Joe Apgar (48:05):
okay, let's say here's the problem with the app.
So at least what I've seen bypeople showing me is that you
can filter for things like, uh,height income.
I mean, people could lie aboutthese things right, but you can
like filter for all these things.
So what happens is peoplegenerally think they know what
(48:25):
they want and they actually haveno idea.
You're limiting your pool ofpeople because you're like, well
, I think I need someone thatlooks like this or does this or
doesn't do this.
You've just limited your poolof people.
Think about the mostinteresting people.
(48:47):
I mean, think about, like, themost interesting people you
probably know in your life.
If you had filtered for thingsthat you actually wanted in
relationships, they wouldn'thave made it into it.
Keri Croft (48:55):
No, very, that's a very good point.
So let's say this an ideal appwhere you didn't do that.
Okay.
Okay, because, like the worldthat we're in, you're getting up
, you're going to work in you'regetting up, you're going to
work, you're going home, you'reonly in a certain sphere, so
you're only going to connectwith so many people out in the
world.
But I mean, everyone did itbefore the apps.
It happens.
So let's just say, if you weregoing to be on the app and
(49:16):
you're not filtering whatever, Ijust think when you find
someone who could be interesting, you have a five minute
conversation with me.
I'm going to sniff out whetherI'm going to have coffee with
you or not.
I just think jumping straightinto like a face-to-face.
There's a bridge there that Ithink people need to like figure
out the art of the conversationagain.
Yeah, so that's that, all thesage wisdom to all of you all
(49:39):
out there.
Joe Apgar (49:40):
I support that.
Keri Croft (49:40):
From these two married old people who have been
so disconnected and thensecondly go back to you, said
that we need a new model for thesperm bank.
What will we create?
Joe Apgar (49:50):
Dude, I've thought of this.
Keri Croft (49:51):
So how would we?
Is it like I mean Pornhub?
Joe Apgar (49:56):
No, no, it's not that kind of stuff.
It's, I mean, a lot of.
It comes down to design, right?
So you want to walk into aplace and feel like inspired.
I think you don't want it tofeel.
I mean these places generallyfeel like inspired to what
inspired to.
I mean inspired to do whatyou're there to do, okay, so?
Keri Croft (50:20):
do we make it look kind of like a strip club?
Joe Apgar (50:22):
no, no, no, no, no, no no, you make it look like
you're walking into the lobby ofa great hotel.
The you know person atreception is not like all
medical gowned out it's.
You know you gotta think, thinkabout.
Like you know there's peoplethat have like white coat
syndrome right yeah, they go tothe doctors like they have a
hard time giving blood.
(50:42):
Their blood pressure skyrocketswhen they see a nurse, like all
these things.
Right, you need to walk in andgive your best performance in
these places.
Right, like I don't know ifthere's medical science behind,
like if there's like such thingas a good performance or a bad
performance.
But you need to be at your bestwhen you walk in, and so you
walk in there's plants, there'smaybe dark wood, there's like a
(51:04):
waterfall, there's's like music,like spa music playing, and you
go in and it's not about thecontent, right, like in you know
, I referenced these like 80s.
Keri Croft (51:17):
Playboys, things.
We have a phone now, so ifsomeone needed, they don't want
you to touch anything.
Joe Apgar (51:22):
They want you to have clean hands and all that stuff
you don't want to like.
Walk into a room and there's ascreen that, like you know,
there's a person in there 10minutes ago looking at that
screen like you don't want likethat creeping in your head yeah,
yeah, yeah.
I think if you're functioningat just the right level, you
don't need a bunch of contentthrown at you.
I think you can just get in themoment and get in there and do
(51:43):
it.
But it's's about, like theenvironment you're in.
Keri Croft (51:45):
I have a stupid question why isn't the spouse
allowed in there.
Joe Apgar (51:49):
I don't know, I never thought of that, but there's.
You know that famous AmericanPie movie, which is like another
way that they can do that.
Do you remember?
You know what I'm talking about.
Keri Croft (51:58):
Tell me it's called.
See, now we're going to getreally vulgar, that's okay.
Well, I can always edit it out.
Your seat milking the prostate.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, stifler, yeah, why
couldn't the spouse come in?
Because it's like too like raw,like you're having like a
couple in there doing somethinglike what's the difference
between that and having like mag?
Is it like illegal or so?
I don't even understand I don'tknow.
Joe Apgar (52:18):
I don't know if it's a sanitary.
Keri Croft (52:19):
We need a deep dive here because I think that we
found a an open space in themarket yeah, I think, I think
you could make this place verycool, very inspirational.
Joe Apgar (52:30):
Not, you know, you walk in there.
It's like it's.
You're kind of walking in likeshameful yeah I'm walking there
hyped like and I'm like, I'mserious, like you want to be
greeted you know we're gonnaname it like you oh you're,
you're Joe.
Like I know Joe's coming intoday.
Like you know, we've got tohype Joe up when he walks in.
(52:51):
Like that kind of energy, likethink about that energy going to
do that thing.
You walk in, you walk out Likethere's no awkward transaction,
like one of these times.
One of the two of the mostbeautiful people I've ever seen
in my life and I've probablyjust made this up now in my head
over the years was a medicalresident who was asked to see my
(53:14):
case.
When I first learned I hadtesticular cancer, she walked in
the room and I said nope, nothappening.
I'm sorry if this makes youfeel awkward, but I can't do
this.
You're way too good looking forthis to happen.
And another person was someoneI had to hand a jar full of
sperm to at the sperm bank.
Gorgeous, here's my cup ofsperm.
(53:37):
I hope you have a nice day andleave.
Keri Croft (53:39):
That's what you got to get rid of.
I think that could be automated.
So when you do IVF, they havethis little window and the
embryologist literally lifts upthe window long enough to be
like OK, your name, your age,and then they close it.
It's like the man behind thecurtain there and then, like
when you go to get like an OBappointment they give you, you
go to the bathroom.
There's a little like you peein it or whatever, and then
(54:02):
there's a little thing you liftup and you put it in there.
There's got to be a way, orsomeone somewhere has thought of
that.
You shouldn't be having to likelook at someone or like have
that awkward interaction nowwith ai.
Joe Apgar (54:14):
they should be able to eventually have like an ai
bot that's like the thing aboutwhat if it felt like a sports
bar and it was a dude, just likea?
Keri Croft (54:22):
that could be.
That could be, I think.
Would that make you feel better?
I don't know.
I'd have to probably try it out.
We'd have to think of that, butI have a name for it.
What's the name, jax?
Joe Apgar (54:35):
That's a good yeah, no.
Keri Croft (54:37):
Jax Off, like whatever the street name is.
Joe Apgar (54:42):
Now you're going to have to put the little E next to
your podcast thing.
On this one.
Keri Croft (54:46):
You have a better name.
Joe Apgar (54:47):
I don't.
I never got to the name.
We have to workshop it a littlebit.
Keri Croft (54:51):
I think, listen.
So at this point, joe and I arelooking for investors for our
new business concept Raising around of money for this.
Joe, seriously, thank you somuch.
Joe Apgar (55:02):
This is great We've laughed, we've cried.
We've done all the things.
I love the awareness continueto bring this and letting sort
of men have a voice in thisconversation.
And you know, I think it'sreally important.
I think there's hundreds ofways to build a family.
I think when you get to theother side of it, it's, you know
, like the love is is going tobe as strong, like any way your
(55:25):
family's been built.
You know and also feel reallyprivileged to.
You know, have a daughter and afamily and realize how lucky I
am.
So I appreciate you giving methis platform.
Keri Croft (55:34):
Well, I appreciate you coming in.
It's always good to lock eyeswith you.
Joe Apgar (55:37):
Yes, you too.
Keri Croft (55:38):
And if you're still out there following your girl,
follow me on YouTube, spotify,apple or wherever you get your
podcasts.
And until next time, keepmoving, baby, if you've made it
to the end of this episode.
Thank you so much for listening, and if infertility is part of
your story, we've created a fewpowerful ways to support you.
During the month of May, we'relaunching a free Slack channel
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(56:21):
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Joe Apgar, you're back, I'mback, you're back.
Joe Apgar (02:12):
I know, and your new digs?
I was in your house last timewe did this, I know you're an OG
.
Keri Croft (02:16):
Not everyone can say they started from the bottom.
They started in the house, thewhole office.
They started from the house.
Joe Apgar (02:22):
Now we're here, I know, and you had a dog.
I was worried the dog was goingto come in.
So yeah, this is an upgrade andyou got Kate.
Keri Croft (02:29):
And we're back, I know, can you believe it?
So how are you feeling about mydigs here?
Joe Apgar (02:33):
I like them.
Does it make you feel cool?
Keri Croft (02:43):
Thank you.
Joe Apgar (02:44):
A lot of colors, a lot of like gemstones, a lot of
just neat stuff.
Keri Croft (02:49):
Where's the art?
Joe Apgar (02:50):
from.
It looks like maybe it's fromthe same artist.
Keri Croft (02:53):
Well, so there's a mishmash going on, but the three
paintings there are from anartist, a local artist here.
His name's Daniel Okay.
And then these boxing glovesare a girl in Chicago.
So I try to support local allthe time, try to do like a
quarterly installation.
Joe Apgar (03:06):
This is fairly new.
Keri Croft (03:07):
Okay, so I'm feeling it.
Joe Apgar (03:09):
I like it.
Yeah, I like it.
Keri Croft (03:11):
So your world is wild, you are a CEO.
Isn't that kind of make youfeel like you know, like you're
a CEO, it's kind of fucking coolright.
Joe Apgar (03:20):
Um, yeah, it doesn't make me feel any sort of way.
I mean it's I feel proud, justbecause of our organization and
the impact our organization has.
Keri Croft (03:27):
But yeah, but you're a ceo.
You're like, I'm joe the ceo.
I know it's fucking cool dude,it's uh, yeah, I mean it's fun.
Joe Apgar (03:35):
It's it's a lot of pressure, it's a lot of fun it's
.
You know you get to engage withincredible people and you know,
I think, get the opportunity toshare my story and hear other
people's stories on a daily,weekly basis and you know, it's
inspiring.
I get to do really inspiringwork, get to meet.
I've always been passionateabout young people you know have
(03:55):
gone through cancer and becauseI went through cancer when I
was young and I think it's justfascinating to like see what
people who've gone throughsomething like that are doing
with their lives and it's such asort of crucial moment and I
think I've never met someone atany age that had gone through
cancer that it didn't inform therest of their life in some way
(04:16):
in a really positive way I canimagine.
Keri Croft (04:18):
Yeah, and so we're here today to talk about
infertility.
Joe Apgar (04:21):
Yes.
Keri Croft (04:22):
And it's funny how and I you know I've said this a
million times, but I am a hugebeliever in energy and the
universe and there is this wholeintangible network that happens
around all of us.
And this is another example.
I was doing this series and Ithought of you because I'm like
man Joe.
He told his story, he's a male.
(04:42):
It's so impactful.
And then I kind of got busy andyou DM'd me and said I need to
see your new space.
I wanted to see the new dicksand I was like, okay, but isn't
that funny how all that worksout, because it's like you
probably saw that too and werelike I'd love to you know
subconsciously.
And now here we are.
Joe Apgar (04:59):
I know Well.
I saw your Instagram story andthought yours was the first
podcast.
I think I had shared like thatpart of my cancer story at any
real depth.
I think it was one of the firstconversations on your podcast
about that topic and just beinga male and that topic this topic
doesn't always get a male voice, and so I remember, like
(05:25):
finishing that podcast and Iwent home and I was like, oh,
that was a podcast and I waslike I had a chance to talk
about infertility for the firsttime, you know, on a real
platform, and so it was coolyeah, and I'm so thankful that
you are doing it again, becausefor the people who maybe didn't
watch the first podcast with you, let's tell them a little bit
about so.
Keri Croft (05:40):
You're in college, you get diagnosed, and let's
focus on sort of when yourealized that you weren't going
to be able to have kidsbiologically, kind of start with
that.
Joe Apgar (05:50):
Yeah.
So it sort of started quick.
So I was 21.
It was my last semester ofcollege I get diagnosed with
testicular cancer.
So I got diagnosed on a Fridaynight and I had surgery 12 hours
later on a Saturday morning.
A surgeon had come up fromWashington DC and it was this
really quick thing.
And I think the thing I wish,looking back, was that I had
(06:14):
gotten a second opinion andpressed pause and because I
think things could have turnedout, you know, differently and
so you know what happens I hadthis first surgery and then I
was in the hospital recoveringfor a few days, leave the
hospital and I come back for aone week checkup of you know
how's the sutures doing and thestaples and all this stuff.
Doctor leaves and a nurse comesin and she says you know, have
(06:37):
you thought about sperm banking?
I said nope, never even heardthat term before.
21 year old college kid.
Like is the last thing I wasthinking.
And she said well, you know,with your type of cancer and the
treatment, it's something youshould sort of think about and
read about.
And so I just left it at thatand so I was at Penn State.
(06:58):
So I was in State College, whichis dead center Pennsylvania,
made a few phone calls, did alittle research online, talked
to my parents and it was sort ofjust something we were like I
guess we should do this, becauseit was suggested Like there
wasn't really a, it was not athoughtful conversation, like
you should do this, and here'swhy it was like this thing's
(07:20):
available if you want to do it,which I think is far too common.
You know it's a very passivesecondary thing.
The primary things are cancer,right, which is understandable.
The secondary thing is all theimpacts of cancer, and fertility
can certainly be one of them.
And so I drove to Pittsburghbecause that was the closest
sort of reproductive sperm bank.
I mean, if someone couldreinvent the sperm bank
(07:45):
experience, it would beincredible.
Because you walk in.
First of all, you're 21, likethis 21 year old college guy,
right, I'm like probably injeans and sneakers and wearing a
Penn State t-shirt and I rollin and it's like beautiful young
lady hands you a little cup,says it says walk three doors
down on the left, walk in, comeback when you're done.
(08:08):
Like no instructions, no, likeyou know.
They're like wash your hands.
I'm like oh okay, thanks.
So you go in and it's like asign on the wall magazines under
the sink Like what are we doinghere?
So you're like, all all right,I'll see what we got.
Like you know, is it, you know,maxim magazine or what is it?
(08:29):
I kid you not, it was a bunchof playboys from the 1980s.
Like someone's grandpa died andthey donated them to the sperm
bank.
That's what happened, likethat's had to be what happened,
and so, like the experienceyou're just like this is this is
not how it's going to get done.
So you know, you give thesample to the person and put
(08:50):
your name on it and you leaveand drive.
You know I drive three hoursback to school and I'm like that
was weird.
Week later get a call.
It was on a Monday around 5 30PM, Cause I remember exactly
where I was standing.
We had navy blue carpet in ourshitty little Penn State
(09:10):
apartment and we had a singlebedroom, three guys living in
this apartment.
The place was always a mess.
I remember exactly where I wasstanding and I answered on my
BlackBerry Pearl, Remember those?
And I answered on my BlackBerryPearl, my blackberry pearl,
remember those and answer myblackberry pearl.
Hey, this is, you know so and so, from you know pittsburgh,
whatever reproductive center,your sperm count is undetectable
(09:32):
in the sample.
Do you want us to store it,because that's also part of it,
right, it's like the testing ofit and then the storage of it.
Do you want us to store?
Store it?
And I was like I don't know.
You said it's undetectable.
Like what should it be?
Like what should the count be?
I don't know.
Like what's a good number?
(09:54):
It's like you know, like 75million.
It's not like 10 is a goodnumber, it's like 50 million or
like something crazy, right.
And I was like, oh, it's like50 million or like something
crazy, right.
And I was like, oh, it's likeundetectable.
Like there's not even one.
Like we found no sperm at all.
And I was like, is that afailed test?
Like did I do something wrong?
(10:16):
Right.
And you got to remember I stillhave cancer, I just had surgery
.
And now it's like, wait, issomething else wrong?
Like what's going on?
No, nothing's wrong.
Like you might just not be ableto produce sperm.
What's that mean?
Like you won't be able to havebiological kids.
So why don't you just let usknow by the end of the week if
(10:36):
you want us to store it or not.
It's $800 if you want to storeit.
Like that, like that was aphone call.
I remember sitting therethinking like do I tell my
parents?
Like do I call them now?
Do I?
Is this like information youjust casually pass on?
Like next time you see yourparents?
Like, is this like an emergencyphone call?
(10:57):
Like what is it like?
What is this news?
Because at this age that's notwhat you're thinking about, it's
sort of not front of mind.
And so I didn't tell my parentsright away.
So I told my parents like thenext time I saw them, which was
a few days later.
So now I got the results fromthe sperm bank and they said it
(11:17):
was undetectable and they'reasking me if I want to store it.
It was interesting.
My parents most supportivepeople in the world, you know
they're like you know how do youfeel?
I said I don't know how I feel,Like I don't know how I'm
supposed to feel, I don't know.
I know it's not a good thing,but I didn't feel like this
sense of loss in the momentbecause I was still sick, Like I
(11:43):
was still dealing with cancerand this was like the secondary
thing, Like I still hadn'tgotten through the primary thing
and so it didn't set.
It was one of those things thatdidn't like settle in right
away, and so that was sort ofthe moment and sort of the
period in which I think Irealized some version of the
future just shifted and it'slike that's like the grief part,
(12:05):
I think, or like the sense ofloss, and I think it happens in
a lot of different areas ofpeople's life.
Right, Like you get some pieceof news that just alters like
this future vision that you hadin your head.
It's not necessarily good orbad.
Right, it's like just change.
You know people don't fearchange.
(12:25):
Like people fear loss.
Like that's what I thinkstresses people out.
I was still seeing it as change, not loss, in that moment.
And the additional context ismy dad's adopted and we've known
that since.
You know, my sister and I knewthat, since we were able to have
(12:46):
memories like that was never asecret, and so that sort of
piece of information was alwaysfloating out there too.
So it was not like I can't havekids, it was like how my family
is going to develop in thefuture.
Just shifted, probably, butstill not a lot of answers.
Keri Croft (13:04):
Well, and when you're 21, I mean, the last
thing you're thinking about isbuilding your family.
At that moment in time, you'rejust a, like you said, you've
got your Penn State t-shirt on,looking for the next place to
hang out.
It doesn't probably settle in,really, until you're looking or
you meet Jill and then you'relike okay, you're picturing your
life with kids.
Then you have to really like seeit, but having having your dad
(13:27):
being adopted, what a greatthough that's, that's great
because it was so a normal thingthat you always grew up seeing
and knowing and understanding asa possibility.
Joe Apgar (13:38):
Yeah, and I think you know hundreds of ways to make a
family and I think the ideathat you know my dad was adopted
, we never felt like a certainway about it.
We never wondered, like he wasnever interested in sort of
pursuing the path of likefinding out who his biological
parents were and he sort of knewsome stories about them.
Who knows how true they were.
It's interesting.
(13:59):
But the other complexity is andif you talk to any young adult
who's ever had cancer, it's likesuch a formidable time in your
life and so you go into sort ofthe dating scene at some point
and you got to like explaincancer.
You're going to have to explainthis infertility thing at some
(14:19):
point.
Cancer is an awkward topic fora young person.
It's like when you introducethat into the conversation like
first date, fifth date, you justhope they know, they hope they
figure it out when you introducetesticular cancer, because the
last thing you need to betalking about on your first date
is testicles, right?
Keri Croft (14:40):
Or the first thing.
Yeah maybe the first thing itdepends on who you're dating,
which is what ended up happeningwith my wife.
What I was going to say is tellthe story about how you just
kind of like put it all outthere.
Joe Apgar (14:53):
I graduated college, I moved to Columbus and I was
still on different medicationsand it was weird being 22 and
sort of my care was transferredto the James.
It's just an awkward thing, butI tried to be as normal as I
could and go out and so I endedup dating a few women.
Until then I met, finally metmy wife at a Halloween party at
(15:14):
this great house.
Someday I'm going to buy it onNeil and Fifth, we meet at this
house party.
It's a Halloween party,exchange phone numbers, you know
whole thing.
And then I call her like threedays later like I would like to
take you out on a date.
I don't know if that happensanymore, by the way, but it was
just like very formal, like, andI I can like see myself doing
(15:36):
it like that's an importantphone call and I like sat down
in my chair in my apartment andlike sat up with like good
posture to make sure, like myvoice was hitting it and like,
hello, I would like to take youon a date, you know, sort of
thing.
So we go on this date, we go toBossy, shout out to Bossy in
Victorian Village, like bestfirst date place, we sit down.
(15:58):
I just looked right at her andsaid I have a whole bunch of
stuff I'm about to tell youbecause I just want to get it
out of the way.
Like I really like you, I canlike tell like there's good
energy here, but we got to getpast like a few things.
I just got to lay it out and soI gave her the like 45 minute.
Just here's like how the lasttwo years have gone for me and
(16:22):
sort of all these things.
You know you're trying to pickup body language, like how is
this person receiving thisinformation?
And it was sort of in some justmet with okay, great, like
thanks for telling me.
You know her dad had had cancerand so she had some experience
with that.
And you know she sort ofmentioned in the dinner she's
(16:44):
like I always wanted kids andI've always wanted kids as well.
And she's like I've alwayswanted kids but I've never
dreamt of being pregnant.
I've never had that sort ofdream.
Not meaning she didn'tnecessarily want to be pregnant,
but she's just like that wasnever like a part of how she
sort of had dreamed of kids.
And in the moment you're likeshe's bullshitting me, like
(17:05):
she's just kind of meeting themoment here.
I later figured out that it waslike totally true, kind of a
match made in heaven from thatstandpoint.
Keri Croft (17:11):
Yeah.
And then did you guysimmediately just know adoption
was just the path.
Joe Apgar (17:16):
Yeah, we did talk to some doctors locally because
there's some things you can doas a male to try to sort of
spare your fertility and I thinkfor me one of the unique things
was they can do this surgerywhere they actually like open up
your testicle and try to Iforget the what the procedure is
(17:36):
actually called but like takesperm out of the testicle right
Surgically.
There's a lot of risk in doingthat.
You know I already had oneremoved and so you know the risk
of something happening to thesecond one is is high.
And you've been still alreadydealing with like tons of
hormone stuff.
Anyway, like my testosterone'salways been way off and and I
never had a baseline before,right, I'd never had my sperm
(17:58):
tested before, I never had mytestosterone tested prior to to
having the cancer, and so we getpost-cancer and you know I have
no sperm count and mytestosterone I mean I was 22, 23
, 24 years old and I was testingat like 150.
And like a normal male isprobably 450 to 1,200,.
(18:20):
You know, and I was alwaysfeeling the impacts of that I
was tired, was tough in the gym,like just tough energy, all
that stuff and so there wasalready stuff indicating like
it's not normal anyway andsomething's wrong.
And so there's a path we didn'twant to go down and so we chose
adoption and I think adoptionwas always our first choice and
(18:41):
we wanted to like close the dooron the biological piece.
By meeting with those doctors,and we learned a lot too.
It was really interesting froma scientific standpoint all the
different ways you can approachinfertility, which you've
covered, you know, on thispodcast.
The scientific miracles thatcan happen right now, you know,
as a result of research, andjust the amazing feats of
(19:04):
medicine is is pretty incredible.
And but adoption was our firstchoice and and so we started,
started down that path.
Keri Croft (19:11):
And Cora's how old?
Joe Apgar (19:13):
She's six and a half.
Keri Croft (19:14):
How is she doing?
She's so she's so cute.
I just saw that photo of youguys at.
That's a tearjerker, the oneyou got.
You're like singing to her andlike it's like's like a framer,
it's like one of those you lookat and you can almost feel the
movement in the photo.
Joe Apgar (19:26):
Yeah, she's awesome.
She's six and a half.
She's in kindergarten.
We have a new dog.
I don't know if she's like adog sister or a dog mom,
whatever she calls herself, butyou know her dog.
She named the dog Annie.
Dog's like her best buddy.
She's got some awesome friends.
(19:47):
She's loving school.
She's got great teachers, greatfriends at school.
She loves dance, so she dances.
She's in the softball.
She's everything you know youwant for a six-year-old.
She's got it.
She's a ball of energy.
She's happy.
Keri Croft (20:03):
What are the questions from her at six Like
how is it starting to sort ofmanifest?
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Joe Apgar (21:48):
Yeah, you know, it's not questions, because we have
an open adoption I can sharejust a little bit about like
that process, because it'sreally interesting how we came
to it and we didn't start at anopen adoption.
So Nationwide Children'sactually has a course.
It's called Adoption Academy.
It's eight weeks long.
It's like every Monday nightfor three hours and you just
(22:10):
learn everything about theadoption process and a couple
people had recommended that tous.
I mean, you learn everythingfrom the different types of
adoption.
You know through foster caresystem, private adoption,
international adoption, allthese things To.
If you're going to adopt, yougot to go meet like a
pediatrician.
If you're going to adopt, yougot to go meet like a
(22:32):
pediatrician, like, and you gotto do these things in advance
because you can't just show upone day and be like, oh yeah, we
need a doctor now for the baby,and so you sort of learn all
those things.
You know the money aspect of it, all that stuff.
So we start an adoption academy, thinking let's do an
international adoption, let's doan international adoption
(22:57):
because we don't want to dealwith complexities of knowing too
much, like that was sort of ourinitial thought.
Like that, that was the simplepath and it was really
interesting because after likethree or four weeks we we could
both sort of feel ourselveschanging our mind about
international adoption.
There's some complexities withinternational adoption, so
there's some countries who won'tlet parents adopt if one of the
(23:18):
parents has had cancer.
So just full stop, you've hadcancer, sorry, you can't adopt
from our country.
We were like, oh, but like I'mhealthy now, it doesn't matter.
Like you had cancer, it couldhave been 50 years ago.
You had cancer, you can't adoptfrom this country and other
medical things that sort ofprevent.
(23:39):
But that wasn't what changedour mind.
What changed our mind was wehad a couple over and people are
always so generous with theirnetwork and so we had shared
that we were starting to pursueadoption and starting to do the
paperwork and all this stuff.
Some friends of friends saidyou should meet this couple.
They live in UA, you shouldmeet this couple.
(24:01):
And so I reached out and said,hey, would you and your wife
want to come over for dinner?
We've never met, but here's howwe're connected.
Would you guys want to comeover for dinner?
We've never met, but here's howwe're connected.
Would you guys want to comeover for dinner?
We'd love to ask you questionsabout your adoption journey.
So you know, they said yes,they come over for dinner.
We sort of hit it off, we havea great dinner and they had an
(24:24):
open adoption.
And so at dinner I rememberasking, I asked the wife, I said
, like tell me why you have anopen adoption?
Like, isn't that complex?
Doesn't it bring all sorts ofmaybe awkwardness down the road,
like uncomfortableness?
And she said, yeah, it does.
(24:44):
But what's?
Is there anything better thanone more adult in your child's
life that loves her or him, likeone more person in the world
that unconditionally loves thiskid and you might have a
relationship with them?
And it was like like I'll neverforget that moment because,
(25:05):
like we flipped, like they leftour house and we were like, let
let's have an open adoption.
Like let's figure out how tohave an open adoption.
We ended up pursuing ouradoption with a private agency,
so we wanted a private domesticinfant adoption.
That was our goal.
So we actually went with anorganization called Just Choice,
(25:27):
which was run by this amazingwoman, molly Thomas, here in
Columbus, and her expertise isactually same-sex couple
adoptions, because most same-sexcouples come to the adoption
process with adoption as theirfirst choice and that's a
(25:48):
different experience than havinggone through maybe failed IVF
and different things and you endup at adoption and you've had
trauma and loss and all of thesethings.
You know a same-sex couple.
A lot of times they go right toadoption and like it's just a
different experience and we weresort of similar right.
We were coming sort of as ourfirst first choice.
(26:11):
So we go through the process.
The process is long and hardand it's like intrusive and
they're like you know the statewants to know how much money you
have.
And like the fire departmentcomes to your house and they're
like you got to make surethere's a fire extinguisher
between the oven and the door ofyour house.
We're like what?
(26:32):
Like you got to make surethere's a plan on your wall, an
escape plan, we're like for thebaby that can't read.
Like what, what are we doinghere?
And these are just the rules,right, so you get through all
the rules who made?
Keri Croft (26:45):
you know who made it's like so funny, who?
Joe Apgar (26:47):
makes, makes the rules, get through the process.
We get home study approved andthen you know you put together a
book of like your family andwhat you're about and because it
gets shown to prospective birthmothers who then choose, you
know I want to place my you knowson or daughter with this
family and then you know youwould meet and all that stuff.
(27:08):
And it can be a long process.
It can be two weeks.
It can be two weeks, it couldbe two years, it could be five
years.
And we went about six months andweren't hearing much.
It's interesting emotionallybecause you feel judged, right
and then kind of in the worstway, like someone's not choosing
you, like you know that there'speople that are looking at that
(27:31):
book of me and my wife pictureson the front, like we had
pictures taken, like all thisstuff, like someone's not
choosing you.
I was like why, and like youdon't know why and and the
reason people get chosen is alsocan be silly it's like oh,
there was a dog on the frontcover and I always wanted a dog,
so I'm going to choose thisfamily.
So there's no rhyme reason.
But you still feel reallyjudged.
(27:53):
We had these pictures taken bya photographer and with the
little sign you know, like withthe letters, and it's like we're
adopting, like date, tbd,whatever.
And we decided to post it onsocial media.
So our social worker had saidlook, you guys know a lot of
people Like social can be sortof iffy with this stuff, but you
(28:15):
might just consider posting it.
So my wife posts a picture onFacebook and Instagram it's
probably still on there actuallyand it says like we're home
study approved, whatever, comingyou know, hopefully, tbd,
whatever.
(28:36):
So she's on her way to abachelorette party in Miami.
So she posts it while she's atthe airport on a Friday night.
Gets on the plane in Columbusto Atlanta, where her sort of
stopover is.
Gets to Atlanta she's got avoicemail Turns on her phone.
She's got a voicemail Turns onher phone.
She's got a voicemail Unknownnumber.
Hey, this is so-and-so.
I heard you're interested inadopting.
(28:57):
I'd like to talk to you.
So red flags go up becausethere's a lot of scams in
adoption, because there's moneyinvolved.
Anywhere there's money, there'sscams, right?
So she calls me and she's likeI don't know what to make of
this.
I was like I don't know.
They left their number likejust call back, like I'll call
(29:18):
for you if you want, like.
So she ends up calling.
It was a ob-gyn in gahanna.
He was late, late to Fridaynight family dinner at a
restaurant with my old roommatein Columbus.
So the OB that had called Jilland the father were partners in
(29:45):
a practice and they werecelebrating the father's
birthday at a restaurant withthe whole family celebrating the
father's birthday at arestaurant with the whole family
.
So the OB was my old roommate'sbrother-in-law and my old
roommate and I.
He met his wife the nightbefore.
I met my wife both at Halloweenparties.
So he comes to dinner late.
(30:07):
Why are you late?
You'll never believe this.
But a young woman walked inwith her grandmother as we were
closing and she's 36 weekspregnant and she's perfectly
healthy.
And I don't know what to doBecause normally this gets
turned over to the state.
Normally it's not this clean,normally there's other sort of
(30:29):
issues involved.
She's fit, she's healthy, thebaby's healthy and so his wheels
are spinning.
My old roommate, calvin and hiswife show David the picture and
the story.
So he called like at dinner OnMonday we met the birth mom in a
(30:54):
conference room, sort ofarranged at their practice.
So in the conference room it wasCora's birth mom and her
grandmother the birth mom'sgrandmother.
I've never been more nervous inmy entire life.
Anticipation we sit down, weend up talking to him for a
(31:16):
couple hours, learned so muchLike such a wonderful family.
Cora's birth mom is such awonderful person.
Two and a half weeks later,cora was born.
We were in the hospital.
My wife cut the umbilical cord.
She was in the delivery room.
I was outside eating a sandwich.
You know the chime like ringsin the hospital.
I was like I bet that's it.
(31:36):
I was like I bet they'll let mein any minute and it turns out
they got a few things to dobefore they let someone like me
in there and it was wonderful.
I mean, the story is like crazybecause our birth mom's
grandfather was also a cancersurvivor and we shared an
oncologist Like there's like allthese crazy connections and we
(31:58):
had decided that we wanted arelationship with her and she
decided she gets to choose thattoo.
She decided she would open arelationship with us, so we had
them over for brunch.
Cora was born December 17th andwe had them over for lunch or
brunch, maybe like January 2ndor something, and we had taken
Cora home from the hospital andthere's a lot of complexities in
(32:22):
it.
Like Cora's birth mom put CoraGrace Apgar on the birth
certificate, which is not normal.
Like a lot of times in anadoption it will just say the
original birth certificate willsay baby, then last name of the
birth mother, and then you haveto go get it changed.
It's like the original birthcertificate says something
(32:43):
different than she put, like ourname on it, which is like a
simple thing, but like amazing,right, um, we've had this open
adoption.
We've had a picture of Cora andher birth mom immediately
post-birth Cora's birth momholding Cora in her hospital
(33:05):
gown and Cora wrapped in one ofthose blankets that they seem to
still use from like 1925.
It was like a framed pictureand from the day we brought Cora
home, we've always just toldher you grew in birth mom's
belly and you grew in our hearts.
She's just always and she asksabout her.
(33:27):
Jill and Cora went and met upwith her birth mom and she now
has a son of her own.
They met at the park a coupleweeks ago.
You know my wife and her textperiodically and share pictures
and all this stuff.
The coolest moment happened afew years ago.
I forget which year it was,maybe 2022.
Cora's birth mom was gettingmarried to this great guy.
(33:49):
Not Cora's birth mom wasgetting married to this great
guy, not Cora's birth father.
We had never met this guy andthey invited us to their wedding
and then they asked if Corawould be the flower girl and we
were like, so honored, but youknow there's a lot of dynamics
there.
So we went to the wedding andCora got to be the flower girl
(34:12):
and it was such a coolexperience for Cora and her
birth mom and family and ourfamily.
We have these amazing picturesfrom it, and so it's just been a
really cool experience.
Keri Croft (34:27):
You got me on my feels this morning.
Joe Apgar (34:31):
Yeah, it's pretty magical, it's.
I don't think we could have abetter sort of experience and
relationship and you know, weultimately decided, like you
know, a couple of years ago.
There's a lot of complexitiesin the, the legal paperwork of
adoption and, and you know, your, your home study, which makes
you sort of available to adopt,can renew, and it's easier to
(34:55):
renew it is than it is to likestart it all over again.
So we kept renewing it, likejust in case we wanted to adopt
again, and we decided we didn't.
Our family felt complete withthe three of us and you know you
hop on a southwest flight, youjust take one little row there,
you know just the three of usand so it's uh, it's been like
(35:15):
this amazing journey and storyand you know, I feel like I'm a
really big advocate for adoptionin whatever form it takes.
But I sort of later learned Ithink before Cora was born, but
like well after Jill and I hadstarted dating and sort of
(35:36):
became serious.
I went through this period ofthat.
I actually started to getretested my sperm.
So I probably went like eighttimes At some point.
I had just decided and it'sexpensive, so that's you know,
you've covered that a little biton the podcast Like infertility
(35:57):
is obnoxiously expensive and itdoesn't, it just adds up.
And it's like it's like thepunches keep rolling in
infertility and they come justfrom all these angles.
And then it's like the worst islike someone sticks this big
ass bill in front of you.
Like, oh yeah, you got to paythis before you walk out the
door because insurance isn'ttouching it.
You're like, wait, insurancedoesn't cover this.
(36:20):
Like no, insurance doesn't givea shit about infertility.
Keri Croft (36:25):
Like it's crazy and that has to change I mean it's
some of it's gotten better tosome extent.
But, like I was just talking toDr Jane in here, he's like the
one of the head reproductivespecialists in the city and I
guess it's now like there's 35%of the companies don't cover.
Like when I was at AT&T back inthe day, I remember looking
(36:46):
through and I was like desperate.
There was an adoption creditfor $5,000.
Okay, thank you, but nothing tocover any meds or anything.
And I mean the.
The one-two punch forinfertility is literally the,
the emotional wreckage.
And then you take the financialand you just like knockout
punch.
Joe Apgar (37:06):
It's crazy, it's crazy, it's expensive, and it
expensive and it's I'm sure it'scost prohibitive for families,
oh it is.
Keri Croft (37:13):
And then you.
That's why I'm a surrogacyadvocate, you know, and I'm an
advocate for, uh, foregoing theagency and doing it on your own,
like what you just said aboutthe magic of and it's not just
social media with my, the waythat I kind of view it, but
social media is a like rocketfuel, it's powerful but leaning
into your network.
No one loves you more than thepeople that know you.
(37:33):
And then, moving outward.
It's kind of the same, in thesame vein as the adoption
process, because you're likesitting and waiting and looking
and thinking, oh, is thisperfect person in the universe?
But a lot of people don't evenconsider surrogacy as an option
for themselves because they'renot them, they're not the
Kardashians.
But you can do that.
(37:54):
It's accessible if you get alittle, you know, if you get
resourceful and creative.
So I think back to your point.
I mean I love the idea of theopen adoption.
I know not everybody'scircumstances are going to be as
pure and clean and no, but I ama huge whether it's egg, sperm
donation, adoption, I just thinktransparency for someone's
(38:16):
identity and again, I'm in mylane here.
However you want to handle it,you handle it, but it's like,
okay, it's maybe awkward,uncomfortable for the adults,
but like who's it really about?
I never thought about that,that spin, though we had our
little first choke up heretogether.
When you said that about likeone more person to love, I
didn't even duh, like I wasthinking more, like okay, like
(38:39):
the child deserves to know.
But my God, you put that withit and you're like how can you?
How can you not?
Joe Apgar (38:47):
Yeah, yeah, it's an interesting I mean such a simple
but powerful statement.
It's uh, I mean love is a verypowerful thing and it's
interesting like love for achild, you know, is that
different than love for a spouse?
And like what are thecomplexities with that?
And I remember thinking we hadthe pediatrician who
(39:12):
unfortunately passed away a fewyears ago after her own battle
with cancer, but she was theperfect pediatrician for us.
She had adopted, she was reallyreally helpful and so we saw
her.
I think on the third day, secondor third day after we took Cora
home, we walked in.
She was so matter-of-fact, shewas probably, like you know,
(39:35):
late 50s, had just been doingthis for 25, 30 years.
We'd sort of got wind that likeshe's the person that people
who adopt like should try to gosee.
So we walk in.
She's like Mom, dad, how youdoing, like retired, you know,
but we're so excited and we'renervous and like all the things
(39:56):
right of first-time parents.
She said, mom, how you feeling,my wife's like great, you know,
it's just so awesome and so inlove with this child.
And she goes Mom, you shouldfeel like just this immediate,
eternal, like, do anything foryou love.
She's like Dad, it's going totake you 30 days.
(40:18):
I was like what do you mean?
She said you think you love,you know, have this
unconditional love right now.
And you do.
She's like in 30 days it willclick for you.
She's like it happens withevery.
She's like in 30 days it'llclick for you.
She's like it happens withevery.
She's like I I watch it withthe moms and the dads and she's
like it's different and like atday 30, like we, you know, you
(40:41):
go back like for the monthcheckup and she's like, how are
you doing?
and I was like it clicked likeyou know I'd do anything for
this, for this little girl, andso it's been fun, it's it's been
such a experience.
I would do anything for cora.
I do think you know I wastalking earlier like I had gone
through this period where I wasgoing to like the sperm bank to
(41:03):
get tested.
And I wasn't going to get testedbecause I was hoping to have
biological children.
I was going to get testedbecause I wanted to see if the
thing that I thought was wrongwith me fixed itself.
And like that is like anothertrauma of people who've gone
through like a medical thing andcancer is obviously the example
(41:24):
I use.
But, like you know, when itgoes through cancer it's like
you didn't do this to yourself.
Like something, somethinggenetically happened, some you
had a genetic mutation,something was wrong with your
genetics.
Like that's what happened.
And then you have this otherthing happen.
It was like something was wrongwith me again.
(41:44):
I was like, did that thing thatwas wrong with me get fixed?
Like that's what I alwayswanted to know.
Like you know, and maybe that'slike the successful, like type
a gotta have every box checkedand all this stuff.
And I remember talking to one ofthe people in the right
reproductive facility and she'slike why, like, is a doctor
sending you here?
(42:04):
Like why do you keep cominghere?
And I'm like I want to see if,like this changes, like if I
like, if my body will likefigure itself out.
And had a really niceconversation with her and she's
like this, like it has nothingto do with, like if something's
wrong with you, like like I quitthinking about it that way,
like you're not broken right, soI just stopped going.
(42:27):
What like?
Why am I doing this?
Like it's like causing my ownhead trash.
It was like I wanted to keepgoing back and I'd walk out of
there and be like nope, stillgot no sperm count.
I just finally settled on itdoesn't matter, nothing's wrong
with you.
Keri Croft (42:45):
But to hear that from a male perspective is so
powerful because you hear itfrom the every woman that sat in
your chair during the monthduring the series.
There's an element of that isis that I'm broken.
There's something wrong with meyou're.
You have this insatiable desireand need to figure out what is
(43:06):
wrong with you and what has gonewrong in your body.
You know.
I mean in.
Joe Apgar (43:11):
In 99 of time it's from the female yeah, yeah, we
talked about that the first timewe talked.
It's like if you just scan theroom full of couples and you
know you a hundred percent oftime you go, oh, they have
infertility.
Like it's not the dude, right?
So there's just like this weirdassumption that, like you know,
(43:31):
it's never the guy and that'swhy I've talked about it before
and started on your podcast.
I've had a lot of differentchances now to share like this
part of my cancer story.
I've met a number of people whoyou know similar situations to
me or close enough where youknow they figured out it was
like male infertility.
(43:52):
There's a sense of guilt fromthe male side.
I think there's a huge sense ofloss and what I've heard like
from people on your podcast isthis huge sense of loss.
I'm broken, I'm letting youknow the world down Like that is
like the narrative I kind ofhear from a female point of view
(44:14):
.
I think the male point of viewbecomes very like I'm supposed
to like protect and take care ofmy family and do all these
things and I'm the one who can'teven help create one Like I'm
at fault.
Keri Croft (44:26):
Yeah, and you have this whole.
There's a masculine yeah, andyou have this whole.
There's a masculine angle whereit's so much more difficult, I
think, for a man going through.
It's very, very hard for women,don't get me wrong, but I just
think the man gets like, youknow, it's just very hard for a
man to open up and be vulnerableabout such a traditionally
(44:48):
masculine.
And so Chad Underwood, who wasin here too and he had opened up
, he was talking about that andthe way people talk about like
oh yeah, you know the real broculture around, like getting
your wife pregnant and like thethings guys say, and like it's
all this, you know, puffing yourchest out.
So it's so important that men,because there's so many going
through this alone, see you, see, chad, because I know I give my
(45:11):
men a hard time on here, but Ilove y'all.
I love y'all.
I really do so.
I'm so thankful that you andyour busy schedule, your busy
CEO schedule, chose to come inhere and talk.
Joe Apgar (45:25):
That's important.
Keri Croft (45:26):
Now there's two more things we need to talk about
before we close out.
Okay, Number one.
Back to your point around.
When you were asking Jill outon a date and you thought it
through, you sat down, you putyour posture up like you
presented yourself.
I think we need to have a quickchat with the peeps out here.
Yeah.
People need to get back to thata little bit.
(45:48):
Yeah, I think like in today'sworld.
This whole like ghosting andlike only texting that.
I just think that's so brokedown.
Yeah.
So maybe people should take moreof like the chivalrous circa
1990 way of asking somebody outon a date.
Joe Apgar (46:07):
I'm a huge proponent of that.
I so I I've never been on adating app because it was like
it was like with jill beforethose really took off.
So I'm kind of fascinated by uhdating app culture and like our
people that are on it and youknow some friends that are on.
I always ask I'm like, it'slike show me how that works.
(46:29):
Like I'm like, so you just likeswipe and then, if they've
swiped, you get like this bigboom like balloons on your phone
and then you just start talkinglike how does that work?
I'm like, do you ever call them?
Like do you ever make it to acall?
Keri Croft (46:43):
and like no, see, that's like you message.
Joe Apgar (46:45):
and then you go to a coffee shop and like, hope they
show up and people get ghostedand I think and this is like the
you know efficiency side of mybrain it's so much simpler just
to call someone.
You could call someone and sayI would like to take you out for
coffee or putt-putt or whatever.
(47:08):
Like I would like to take youout and get to know you a little
better.
Like is that something you'reinterested in?
The conversation's done in like12 seconds.
Keri Croft (47:16):
Would putt-putt be in your top five?
Oh, I love putt-putt, you knowmy son has got me real into
putt-putt right now, yeahputt-putt's cool.
So here's the thing.
I think what we I think whatneeds to happen out here
everyone coming from the womanwho's been married for 20 years
I think there needs to be ahybrid.
So, from what I'm seeing andhearing from my friends who are
(47:36):
on the apps, the apps is a Imean it's fantastic right so you
can actually just sort peopleout.
I think there's a lot of valuethere.
But we're going straight fromthe app into coffee or drinks.
You're wasting so much timethere, so I think app and then
talk on the phone for a minutethis whole this whole talking on
like why people don't do that.
So if I were doing it I would beon the app you would use that
(47:59):
so I would.
You have.
You have to.
You'd have to use an app atsome point, don't you think I
don't know?
Joe Apgar (48:05):
okay, let's say here's the problem with the app.
So at least what I've seen bypeople showing me is that you
can filter for things like, uh,height income.
I mean, people could lie aboutthese things right, but you can
like filter for all these things.
So what happens is peoplegenerally think they know what
(48:25):
they want and they actually haveno idea.
You're limiting your pool ofpeople because you're like, well
, I think I need someone thatlooks like this or does this or
doesn't do this.
You've just limited your poolof people.
Think about the mostinteresting people.
(48:47):
I mean, think about, like, themost interesting people you
probably know in your life.
If you had filtered for thingsthat you actually wanted in
relationships, they wouldn'thave made it into it.
Keri Croft (48:55):
No, very, that's a very good point.
So let's say this an ideal appwhere you didn't do that.
Okay.
Okay, because, like the worldthat we're in, you're getting up
, you're going to work in you'regetting up, you're going to
work, you're going home, you'reonly in a certain sphere, so
you're only going to connectwith so many people out in the
world.
But I mean, everyone did itbefore the apps.
It happens.
So let's just say, if you weregoing to be on the app and
(49:16):
you're not filtering whatever, Ijust think when you find
someone who could be interesting, you have a five minute
conversation with me.
I'm going to sniff out whetherI'm going to have coffee with
you or not.
I just think jumping straightinto like a face-to-face.
There's a bridge there that Ithink people need to like figure
out the art of the conversationagain.
Yeah, so that's that, all thesage wisdom to all of you all
(49:39):
out there.
Joe Apgar (49:40):
I support that.
Keri Croft (49:40):
From these two married old people who have been
so disconnected and thensecondly go back to you, said
that we need a new model for thesperm bank.
What will we create?
Joe Apgar (49:50):
Dude, I've thought of this.
Keri Croft (49:51):
So how would we?
Is it like I mean Pornhub?
Joe Apgar (49:56):
No, no, it's not that kind of stuff.
It's, I mean, a lot of.
It comes down to design, right?
So you want to walk into aplace and feel like inspired.
I think you don't want it tofeel.
I mean these places generallyfeel like inspired to what
inspired to.
I mean inspired to do whatyou're there to do, okay, so?
Keri Croft (50:20):
do we make it look kind of like a strip club?
Joe Apgar (50:22):
no, no, no, no, no, no no, you make it look like
you're walking into the lobby ofa great hotel.
The you know person atreception is not like all
medical gowned out it's.
You know you gotta think, thinkabout.
Like you know there's peoplethat have like white coat
syndrome right yeah, they go tothe doctors like they have a
hard time giving blood.
(50:42):
Their blood pressure skyrocketswhen they see a nurse, like all
these things.
Right, you need to walk in andgive your best performance in
these places.
Right, like I don't know ifthere's medical science behind,
like if there's like such thingas a good performance or a bad
performance.
But you need to be at your bestwhen you walk in, and so you
walk in there's plants, there'smaybe dark wood, there's like a
(51:04):
waterfall, there's's like music,like spa music playing, and you
go in and it's not about thecontent, right, like in you know
, I referenced these like 80s.
Keri Croft (51:17):
Playboys, things.
We have a phone now, so ifsomeone needed, they don't want
you to touch anything.
Joe Apgar (51:22):
They want you to have clean hands and all that stuff
you don't want to like.
Walk into a room and there's ascreen that, like you know,
there's a person in there 10minutes ago looking at that
screen like you don't want likethat creeping in your head yeah,
yeah, yeah.
I think if you're functioningat just the right level, you
don't need a bunch of contentthrown at you.
I think you can just get in themoment and get in there and do
(51:43):
it.
But it's's about, like theenvironment you're in.
Keri Croft (51:45):
I have a stupid question why isn't the spouse
allowed in there.
Joe Apgar (51:49):
I don't know, I never thought of that, but there's.
You know that famous AmericanPie movie, which is like another
way that they can do that.
Do you remember?
You know what I'm talking about.
Keri Croft (51:58):
Tell me it's called.
See, now we're going to getreally vulgar, that's okay.
Well, I can always edit it out.
Your seat milking the prostate.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, stifler, yeah, why
couldn't the spouse come in?
Because it's like too like raw,like you're having like a
couple in there doing somethinglike what's the difference
between that and having like mag?
Is it like illegal or so?
I don't even understand I don'tknow.
Joe Apgar (52:18):
I don't know if it's a sanitary.
Keri Croft (52:19):
We need a deep dive here because I think that we
found a an open space in themarket yeah, I think, I think
you could make this place verycool, very inspirational.
Joe Apgar (52:30):
Not, you know, you walk in there.
It's like it's.
You're kind of walking in likeshameful yeah I'm walking there
hyped like and I'm like, I'mserious, like you want to be
greeted you know we're gonnaname it like you oh you're,
you're Joe.
Like I know Joe's coming intoday.
Like you know, we've got tohype Joe up when he walks in.
(52:51):
Like that kind of energy, likethink about that energy going to
do that thing.
You walk in, you walk out Likethere's no awkward transaction,
like one of these times.
One of the two of the mostbeautiful people I've ever seen
in my life and I've probablyjust made this up now in my head
over the years was a medicalresident who was asked to see my
(53:14):
case.
When I first learned I hadtesticular cancer, she walked in
the room and I said nope, nothappening.
I'm sorry if this makes youfeel awkward, but I can't do
this.
You're way too good looking forthis to happen.
And another person was someoneI had to hand a jar full of
sperm to at the sperm bank.
Gorgeous, here's my cup ofsperm.
(53:37):
I hope you have a nice day andleave.
Keri Croft (53:39):
That's what you got to get rid of.
I think that could be automated.
So when you do IVF, they havethis little window and the
embryologist literally lifts upthe window long enough to be
like OK, your name, your age,and then they close it.
It's like the man behind thecurtain there and then, like
when you go to get like an OBappointment they give you, you
go to the bathroom.
There's a little like you peein it or whatever, and then
(54:02):
there's a little thing you liftup and you put it in there.
There's got to be a way, orsomeone somewhere has thought of
that.
You shouldn't be having to likelook at someone or like have
that awkward interaction nowwith ai.
Joe Apgar (54:14):
they should be able to eventually have like an ai
bot that's like the thing aboutwhat if it felt like a sports
bar and it was a dude, just likea?
Keri Croft (54:22):
that could be.
That could be, I think.
Would that make you feel better?
I don't know.
I'd have to probably try it out.
We'd have to think of that, butI have a name for it.
What's the name, jax?
Joe Apgar (54:35):
That's a good yeah, no.
Keri Croft (54:37):
Jax Off, like whatever the street name is.
Joe Apgar (54:42):
Now you're going to have to put the little E next to
your podcast thing.
On this one.
Keri Croft (54:46):
You have a better name.
Joe Apgar (54:47):
I don't.
I never got to the name.
We have to workshop it a littlebit.
Keri Croft (54:51):
I think, listen.
So at this point, joe and I arelooking for investors for our
new business concept Raising around of money for this.
Joe, seriously, thank you somuch.
Joe Apgar (55:02):
This is great We've laughed, we've cried.
We've done all the things.
I love the awareness continueto bring this and letting sort
of men have a voice in thisconversation.
And you know, I think it'sreally important.
I think there's hundreds ofways to build a family.
I think when you get to theother side of it, it's, you know
, like the love is is going tobe as strong, like any way your
(55:25):
family's been built.
You know and also feel reallyprivileged to.
You know, have a daughter and afamily and realize how lucky I
am.
So I appreciate you giving methis platform.
Keri Croft (55:34):
Well, I appreciate you coming in.
It's always good to lock eyeswith you.
Joe Apgar (55:37):
Yes, you too.
Keri Croft (55:38):
And if you're still out there following your girl,
follow me on YouTube, spotify,apple or wherever you get your
podcasts.
And until next time, keepmoving, baby, if you've made it
to the end of this episode.
Thank you so much for listening, and if infertility is part of
your story, we've created a fewpowerful ways to support you.
During the month of May, we'relaunching a free Slack channel
(56:00):
because we know firsthand justhow isolating infertility can be
.
Whether you're navigating IVF,grieving a loss, exploring
surrogacy or just need a safeplace to exhale, this space is
here for you.
It's more than a chat thread.
It's a community of support,shared stories and quiet
strength.
Come as you are, ask thequestions, share the wins and
(56:21):
the heartbreaks and know thatyou are not alone in this.
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