Roger O’Donnell is a long-serving member of The Cure, shaping their sound for coming up to 40 years (with a couple of breaks). Aside from that critical role, Roger formerly held down keys duties with The Psychedelic Furs, Thompson Twins and Berlin. Add to that his incredible solo output and you have a fascinating guest...
The post Roger O’Donnell – The Cure / Psychedelic Furs / Solo Artist (Part 1) appeared first on The Keyboard Chronicles.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
There's so many people that can play to the standard, you know, that's necessary.
But it's a matter of getting on with the, it's being in a band is not easy.
(00:21):
Welcome to the Keyboard Chronicles podcast for keyboard players.
I'm your host, David Holloway, and I'm very excited to be here with you.
I'm particularly excited because I've just come off a 90 plus minute interview with theamazing Roger O'Donnell.
So in this first of two parts with Roger, we cover off his amazing new solo album,Projections.
And I cannot recommend highly enough checking that out.
(00:43):
I've linked to it in the show notes.
I've had the pleasure as you hear in the interview of listening to it a number of times,and I'll be listening to it a lot more.
Really, really worth a listen.
If you're a lover of brilliant electronic music with lots of emotion, this is a go-topiece of work.
But aside from that, we also happen to talk about Roger's near 40 year
time with The Cure and also some other bands that you will well and truly recognize, butmay not have expected he played a role in and lots more.
(01:13):
And then there's even more to come in part two, but I'll let you jump in, have a listen topart one and I'll talk to you at the start of part two.
Roger, it's an absolute pleasure and honour to have you on the show, sir, and how are youthis fine autumn sort of middle of the day for you?
(01:39):
Yeah.
Well, thank you.
It's an honor to be asked to be, uh, to come and talk about myself and keyboards.
One of my favorite topics.
It's miserable.
We just got back from Italy and it was 30 degrees 32 and there it's about 15 and I'm inDevon and it's raining.
(02:00):
So pretty much standard.
It sounds it.
Yes.
I've had the pleasure of being to Devon once and I understand you.
Um, so it's, it's, uh, as I've said in the introduction to the show, like many of ourguests, it's difficult to encapsulate your whole career in an hour or a little bit more,
but we're going to try.
Um, and I thought we'd start off firstly talking about your last 12 months, how busyyou've been leading into you've got an amazing new album coming out.
(02:26):
So just tell us over the last year or so what you've been up to.
Um, yeah, well, it's no secret that, during 23 and 24, I was diagnosed with lymphoma.
And, uh, so exactly 12 months ago today, I just finished treatment.
So I was pretty wasted and just looking forward to doing nothing.
(02:48):
But then of course we got the email from the boss and we, uh, we launched the album, songsfor a lost world.
So that sort of, I managed to have a bit of rest, but then I spent about a month preparingfor those shows and then the shows were over in about a week.
(03:08):
And then I really concentrated on finishing this album, Projections, which is the thirdelectronic album I've done.
So I always feel uncomfortable with things in twos.
Like I think it has to be three to be finished, you know, to be that.
to be complete.
I've been thinking about releasing uh a third electronic album for a long time.
(03:34):
Some of the songs have been around a while, but a lot of them came up after that period ofreleasing the last Cure album and me recovering from all the treatment I had.
So it was very much, I was very cognizant of the fact that I didn't want to do uh an albumthat...
(03:55):
that was all about me being ill and like, because that was a bit of a trap to fall into,but actually while I was, while I was ill, while I was going through treatment, I didn't
play at all because I just, it was just too emotional for me.
And it was a, so once I was in the clear and feeling better than I really dived into thisrecord.
(04:17):
And also at the same time, I think last summer I took delivery of my new rose, Mark eight.
And that really came to the fore in the record.
was, it was my main instrument for many years back in the day.
And, uh, I've still got my 1977 suitcase piano over there.
(04:39):
Uh, doesn't sound quite as good as it should anymore.
Well, that's why I got this one.
And, and it really was like meeting up with an old friend again.
And I've always been very wary of putting, of most of my electronic albums are purely MoogVoyager.
And I've always been very wary of introducing other tones and other instruments into it.
(05:01):
But just like that, the Rhodes just sat in there.
It almost took over from the Moog, but not quite.
But I was very happy to do that.
So then I finished uh mixing around January, February.
And then I thought, let's have a go at this Atmos malarkey.
(05:22):
So I thought.
I went into a studio in London, which shall we remain nameless and uh spent a day doingAtmos mixes, which was interesting.
Um, I'm not sure if I'm convinced because actually it lends itself very much to electronicinstruments because they don't really exist in the real world.
(05:46):
You know, they don't, unless you plug them in, they don't make a sound.
So you can kind of put them wherever you want them.
Whereas if you're at most mixing a piano and four cellos, you know, you can't stick onecello up in here over here and the piano down there.
So it lends itself to it, but it still felt quite artificial and a bit like a gimmick.
(06:07):
Um, but I was, I was quite happy with the mixes.
We had a few problems with them.
Um, there was some issues, but we went back after five times, five tries, we got it right.
And then I went back and mastered for vinyl.
with a person that I've been working with for 20 years, Guy Davie at Electric Mastering.
(06:30):
And that was the real world for me, really.
know, hearing the mixes in stereo, which, you know, even stereo is kind of artificial,really, isn't it?
I don't know, we're getting a bit esoteric now, but hearing those masters, it just blew meaway.
And Guy was like, yeah, don't mess about with that Atmos.
(06:53):
But I'm glad I did so the album will be released on all of the streaming.
em
platforms as all the digital stuff will be one mix and then the vinyl is going to be adifferent mix.
There's slightly, the mixes are slightly tweaked and it's also a different master.
(07:15):
So it will sound significantly different, different enough for it to be worth buying thevinyl.
But if you have that link.
I certainly am and I will be.
so, Roger, I need to ask you, you've already prompted me on two questions I hadn't plannedon asking.
One I'll save to later, but with the Atmos, when you say you weren't convinced here, whatsort of challenges did it pose?
(07:36):
Is it, there is too much freedom with Atmos and where you can position instruments and itactually becomes more of a restraint than actually freedom.
It just seems artificial.
It's like, okay, we'll put that synth over there.
Uh, and then we'll make it move from the back to the front or we'll get this sequence andput it down there and that'll go up and down.
And I'm like, why, why?
(07:58):
It's like, there's no, there's no good reason.
If you're mixing analog instruments in Atmos.
So I think you can get a really cool situation where you're actually placed in the middleof the string quartet or the orchestra.
And that makes sense.
But for electronic music, mean, I suppose, yeah, it's just another effect, isn't it?
(08:19):
But I was determined to try it.
I thought it would be interesting.
And I do like listening to things in, in Atmos.
em But maybe it's just because it's a gimmick.
But then did people say that about stereo?
You know, I remember wearing a badge at art school that said back to Mono and that was inmid seventies.
(08:41):
You're absolutely right.
No, that's an amazing, thank you for that.
That's good insight.
And so let's move on.
The reason I said I plan on buying the vinyl is for very good reason.
Cause you gave me the privilege of listening to the album in the past week.
And it is utterly amazing.
And I'm not just saying that because you're a guest on the show, but it's right up myalley and I just, love it to bits.
(09:04):
And I've listened to it sort of three or four times.
And so I thought we'd start firstly with the album projection, just describe the album inyour own words of what you're wanting to achieve with it for a start.
Um, well, I wanted to go, as I said, I wanted to go back into the electronic domain, uh,because I felt that it was unfinished having released two albums.
released one in 2005, which was called, uh, the truth in you truth in me.
(09:31):
So let's say like that.
It's a long time ago.
And the second one was songs from the silver box.
Um, and then I thought, and it needs a third.
So I was determined to do a third.
mean, you know, there could be a fourth.
but the third was definitely called for.
And so some of the songs were from back, back in the day.
(09:52):
And then some of them were very recent.
Like, like I said, after I'd finished treatment and was recovering and I just wanted it tobe like a summation of everything that I've heard and everywhere I've been musically.
I just wanted to like,
(10:14):
take this moment to uh step back or step forward to the keyboards and just let it out, youknow, which is very much my, the way I write.
don't sit down and go, I'm going to write a song today.
Um, and then, you know, labor over it.
just, you know, if it comes, comes and it's usually from, from a sequence or a pattern orsomething on the roads now, now I've got it sitting next to me.
(10:44):
And I just wanted it to feel like a reflection of everything I've ever done.
But rather than calling it reflection, it's projections, which is like where I'm going togo next.
So it's about everything I've done and everything about where I'm going to go.
And it's not a song about being ill.
(11:07):
It's not a song about recovery.
Album, it's not an album about recovery.
It's just.
Uh, I guess the joy of being able to play again and, just thinking about where I've beenand everything I've ever heard and everything, all of those influences.
And it always brings a smile to my face when I hear something that I played and I knowexactly where it's come from.
(11:33):
You know, it's not plagiarism.
I just know where that influence has come from.
And, um, one of the biggest compliments, uh, I sent it to a couple of friends fromToronto.
And they said, yeah, it sounds like you.
So yeah, I was quite happy about that.
And funny enough, I did a seminar with Philip glass a few years ago in California and wewere talking endlessly.
(11:58):
And before we went on to the, to the, to the stage, she said to me, you know, when I sitdown at the piano and I start playing it, it just sounds like me and it's so frustrating.
And I'm like, Philip, you're crazy.
uh
People would give their right arm to sit down and sound like you and that's what youstrive for.
(12:18):
I remember I used to think if I could distill everything that I am and everything thatI've heard into one note, that would be fantastic.
But I think it's probably three notes, three or four.
I can't get it into one.
And look, I mean, I think you've done a brilliant attempt at distilling it because yeah,the emotion it's, I'm not surprised about the way you've represented the album, but the
(12:44):
emotion on it is really, um, it's really strong, but as you said, not in a negative or arecovery or a treatment sort of way, it's just this amazing emotion throughout the songs.
So I did want to ask you about a few of the songs and what stood out to me was obviouslythe title song itself, projections.
The first thing is a keyboard player myself I picked up is.
that electric piano, that road sounds wonderful.
(13:06):
You've just described why, why that is the case.
So the, the Mark 8 is obviously to your ears, an amazing instrument, which I'm notsurprised by.
Yeah, it's, um, they've done a great job.
you know, they bought the rights to the name and they started off with a, I think quite asmall amount of money and they've managed to turn it around.
(13:28):
I think they've shipped their 500th, um, instrument and it's not a cheap instrument.
I mean, it's up there around 10 grand once you add all the stuff on it.
But the basis of it, the harp and the action is all the same.
They've just refined it.
The keyboard is manufactured by the people that make Steinway's keyboards.
(13:52):
It's really nice.
You know, it hasn't got any, uh, lateral kind of slop to it, which mine has, cause allthe, the, the, the, um, cushioning is all worn away.
But it sounds great.
mean, I think I need to tweak mine cause it, uh, I need to move the pickup slightlyfurther away from the ends of the tines to give it a more of a bell like,
(14:15):
uh, resonance, but it's really nice.
And I was very, um, dubious about having onboard effects, even though, um, it was Cyrilfrom, uh, Cyril Lark from MOOC that did them.
And I'm really old friend of Cyril's.
So I was like, it's going to be good if it's Cyril's done it.
And I was like, yeah, you know, it should be pure.
(14:37):
It should be, you know, they shouldn't be going through anything else.
It should just be coming out of the preamp.
But then when I played it and I hit the delay.
button, was like, oh yeah, okay, well this is cool.
Cause he's just, he's done such a great job on it.
And Nerys, of course, they've midded it.
So it's even better.
So it can sit in every studio and be the, like the master mother keyboard.
(15:02):
So, but it just sounds right, you know, and it's not out of tune and it's not, there's notnotes missing.
And that's, you know, I love old things.
I've got a 19.
23 Steinway, uh, grand in the, in the house.
And I love it, but it needs continual work.
And when I'm in the studio, I just want things, you know, I don't have time to mess it up.
(15:26):
I mean, I've got loads of time, but when I'm, when I've like, got that creative flow, Idon't want anything in the way.
I just need to be able to play the piano or the synth and it works.
So having a brand new one is quite, quite amazing.
And also I got to know the.
guys from the company and I've actually invested so I'm a part owner in Rhodes which isvery very very cool.
(15:51):
Yeah.
I'm sure they're thrilled to have you as well.
And so I mean, a couple of the other songs, Roger, two plus two is three.
Tell us a little bit behind that one.
That's again, beautiful song.
I love the, it's very rhythmic and it's sort of got this beautiful mix of contemporarysounds and including, you know, the piano is sort of a retro feel as well.
Tell us a little bit about that one.
(16:12):
That's the oldest song on the record and that sort of harks back to probably the end ofthe last electronic record that I released, which was in 2010 maybe.
So that's quite an old song.
And that sort of uses a lot of the ways of creating that I used on those albums, buildingup patterns one at a time with the Voyager.
(16:39):
And then I send it to my.
send it to my friend Brian in Philadelphia, his band's name is ALCA.
And he does all the percussion, which is amazing because I don't have the patience forthat.
Like I was saying, I don't have time in the studio.
I just don't have the patience to move little beats around and then bring in samples.
(16:59):
So I send him a song with a of a guide rhythm on it.
And then he sends me back like 10 to 20 tracks of rhythm, of beats and things.
And he always says, just use what you want.
know, you don't have to use it all.
And I always use it all.
And on that particular song, he sent back some melodic ideas as well, which I used, whichwas, which was really nice.
(17:24):
But that one is really, really, like I said, it's the oldest song on the record.
And it's really the bridge between this record and the last record, I think.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I did want to say there's such continuity between those two records.
I won't claim to have listened to songs from the silver box when it came out, but Ilistened to it subsequent to projections and I went, wow, I can, I can totally see the
(17:46):
continuity.
It's amazing.
Um, my favorite track, um, Roger is I can only see you in a mirror.
it's just, it's absolutely stunning song.
Just tell us a little bit.
Again, the story behind the emotion of this track, to me that was one of the ones wherethe emotion really came through strongly.
Yeah.
Well, uh, that I can only see him in a mirror.
(18:07):
The title comes from, uh, my, uh, long time hairdresser, Keith, who died last year.
Cause I only ever saw him in the mirror.
I'll be sitting there and he'd be cutting and we used to have endless conversations aboutmusic and fashion and style and everything.
And he was just as a staple in my life.
You know, I never thought he wouldn't be there.
(18:28):
It's like, was, compared him to like Levi jeans or, know, uh,
whatever, can't think of anything else.
And so that song really is about him and about the emotion that I feel.
Every time I drive into London, I miss him.
You know, I feel that his presence isn't there.
And em he was a big fan of, he would go every year to Trinidad to the steel drum festivalsat carnival.
(18:57):
And so there's some elements of that in there, not consciously, but when I listened backto it, was like,
Yeah, that's what that is.
So, and that hasn't got any rhythm on it.
No beats on that song.
Cause I think it just stood up for itself.
That's a combination of probably every synth I've got in my studio, the move one overthere.
And, I've got a.
(19:17):
Profit sequential, fix, which, and that's got some nice little samples and nice little,uh, sequences in it.
And, uh, so I used a combination of everything on that song, no roads on that track.
No, that's right.
You know, absolutely amazing.
And I do want to link back.
You mentioned that that's the third of your in quotation marks synth albums.
(19:40):
And then you've got this other side of you, this amazing output that is more in the pianoorchestrally driven domain.
So I did want to ask you about 2022's seven different words for love.
That's obviously a very different approach to recording, but just tell us looking back nowsort of three years after the fact, what that meant to you and how you approach that
album.
It's obviously a whole different ball game.
(20:03):
That album was driven entirely by one instrument.
So I was about to have my Steinway restored and the piano restorer came around and hestarted to tell me about this instrument called an una coda, which is basically a piano.
uh But you can put damping, I mean, you can put damping on any piano, but this isspecifically made so that you can layer uh fabric against the strings.
(20:31):
And it makes it very percussive.
So I downloaded the sample and I just started playing and it just made me play these emlike seek virtually sequences on the, on the, on the, on the instrument.
And that just led, and I wrote all, I think there's seven songs and one extra.
(20:52):
Yeah.
Seven different words for love.
you go.
So there are eight songs.
I wrote them all in about two weeks.
So, and then I spoke to.
Paul, Paul Corkett, who's worked with Acure for 25 years.
said, do you think I need to buy an own recorder and replay all the parts?
So what do you think the samples are okay?
(21:12):
And he was like, ah, samples sound great.
So I kept, kept it like that.
And then we went into the studio in Bath and recorded, my friend Miriam recorded the celloparts and then Paul actually mixed that record.
So, and it was just a very delicate record and it was just.
very delicate little songs and little melodies and they just sort of came out of me.
(21:36):
Actually the final one, one last word.
During the beginning of that record, when I had a few songs, I sent them to my friendOrion, who's a producer, and he was working on a movie in America with a first-time
director em who's now a very good friend of mine.
(22:00):
Darren Legallo and he played him one of the songs and Darren was like, okay, we need himto do the soundtrack.
So I want this music on the soundtrack.
And so I thought, so Aurene said, up for it?
And I said, yeah, I mean, it's done.
The record's done.
It's easy.
can just place, I can just place the songs on the record.
(22:20):
Little did I know six months later that I would be writing 25 actual discrete cues for it.
And I didn't, I think I used a couple of songs from the album.
But most of the songs on the album were too emotional for the film.
It was like, I can't use this, it overpowers the scene.
I'm like, okay then.
(22:43):
It was hard work.
It really was.
But in the end, it was really worth it.
I'm very happy that I did it.
So I ended up with a whole album of my own stuff.
And then there's 25.
other cues that were written specifically for the movie.
And Darren asked me to write something specific and that's where that song came out of.
(23:09):
And I was like, wow, if you hadn't asked me or hadn't pushed me, that song would neverhave existed.
So yeah, it was a really nice collaboration.
in the end, know, so I'd score the whole film, send it to him and we did a FaceTime andhe'd be like, I'm not really loving this one.
maybe more soundscape.
And I'm like, what the fuck does soundscape mean?
(23:31):
And so we went backwards and forwards in the end, we were getting there.
And then finally he came over and came and sat in the producers on the producers crapcouch and we did it all.
We just knocked it out and it was all, and then we got to the end of the movie and he'slike, shit, this song hasn't got a cue.
(23:52):
It needs a cue.
And I'm like,
So he's going to sit there while I try and write something from a blank page.
And Mimi, my partner, had been with me throughout the process, as a muse, like as atouchstone for everything.
And I looked at her, she looked at me and we're like, this is not going to happen.
(24:15):
But luckily we found something that I'd already written that worked.
So I don't know if you've ever been in that position where somebody's waiting for you towrite a piece of music.
and just standing over you.
It's different in the studio, you know, when I have to play a solo, I have to come up witha part with Robert because we've been working together for so long that, you know, it's
(24:36):
very natural.
But with a complete stranger, uh but we're, we've scheduled the next movie.
I'm going to score his next movie.
And uh so it's going to be a much more organic approach though this time.
And I'm going to have written pieces and we'll play them on set.
So it will be a more, I'll be more involved from the beginning.
(24:59):
So I'm quite looking forward to that.
And you've just answered my question was did the whole thing turn you off uh soundtrackcomposition, but it sounds like it hasn't.
So that's a great outcome.
Well, the jury's out on that because it was every time after every FaceTime we do, I'd sayto Mimi, I can't do this.
(25:20):
I'm just going to tell him I quit.
But I didn't.
And I'm very glad that I did.
The film's called Sam and Kate and it stars Dustin Hoffman and Sissy Spacek.
So it was a pretty, it was a good film to start work on.
Yeah, absolutely.
And we'll be linking to that for sure.
(25:41):
And you've also led me down another path I wasn't intending at this stage, but let's doit.
So you mentioned Philip Glass.
You've obviously had a relationship there before that I was aware of.
Just tell us a little bit about what you've gained from working with Philip in thedifferent ways that you have over the years.
I only met him once for a few days, I never actually worked with him.
(26:07):
I did write a piece of music and we were going to perform at his yearly Tibet fundraiser,but that didn't happen for some reason.
Just being in his presence, I mean, for me, in that kind of...
That Steve Reich, that whole world.
(26:29):
I love that.
My orchestral music doesn't really fall into that, that area.
It's not as minimal.
I think I'm way more melodic than those guys are.
But just talking to him and hearing him and so he said to us, so, so how do you guys writethen?
You know, how do you score?
(26:50):
I'm like, I use logic and then I, and then I give it to an arranger.
just to make sure everything's in the right place.
And then I spit it out.
He said, well, I still use a pencil and manuscript paper.
And he said, I'll tell you why that's better.
Because at the end of it, I sign every page and I sell them.
He said, you can't sell a digital file.
(27:11):
I guess this was before, uh what was it?
What were those things that everybody went bankrupt with?
the NFTs, yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, which I never, never completely understood.
In fact, I, I don't understand them at all, but nobody else did cause they've all gone andthey've all disappeared and everybody lost all their money.
So yeah, it was, it was a great, I mean, I didn't hesitate when I, um, my friend Bradley,was VP at Google at the time said, do you want to, do you want to fly out to San Francisco
(27:40):
and do a seminar with Philip plus?
I'm like, I'm there.
Cause he's a, you know, he's a hero.
Uh, and it's great to be able to meet those people.
And I always kind of bear that in mind when somebody comes up to me and says, Roger, suchan honor to me.
You know, you've been a huge influence on my life, on my plane, on my life, on my plane.
(28:04):
And rather than, you know, say, don't be stupid.
Uh, you know, I haven't influenced anyone.
I always remember how I feel around my heroes and, and you just have to be, you know, justbe thankful.
And it's nice that if somebody can, if you can give some
somebody something to take away and affect their plan.
It's a great thing.
Absolutely.
(28:25):
Couldn't agree more.
And so let's talk about your heroes and actually go back a decade or five to your musicalupbringing, Roger.
So just tell us in a little bit as far as your musical upbringing as a child, what got youinto music in the first place in those early years?
Yeah.
Well, um, as I always like to say, I was born next to the piano and I've never moved veryfar away from one.
(28:50):
Um, I was born next to the piano at home in the living room.
And from the moment I could walk, was playing it or hitting it or my mom would play andI'd sit underneath it and push the keys up.
And then I started going to see bands and my brother taught me to play 12 bar blues.
And then I would buy sheet music.
(29:12):
Um,
I had some piano lessons, but I didn't really get on with that because I could play by earand I was like, well, this just doesn't make sense to me.
This is just like painful torture.
uh I wish I'd stuck with it, but because to be able to play by ear and by music isamazing, but I've got by on what I've got.
(29:33):
And so there I started hanging around with bands, uh predominantly kind of blues rockbands in those days in the early seventies.
And, um, at the time, the only way you could play with a band was electric piano or anorgan.
Uh, I hated the organ at the time.
I love it now, but, um, so I got an electric piano.
(29:55):
I said to my dad, I want to buy an electric piano.
And he said, well, if you get a job and make half the money, I'll give you the other half,which was, you know, I've never forgotten that lesson.
And I think that the piano only costs about 40 quid.
But I don't remember how much I was getting paid.
Obviously it wasn't very much.
uh So I bought a Hohner Pianet, which had these little sticky pads on the end of each keythat plucked a tine.
(30:23):
And I didn't have an amplifier.
That was a big, hole in my plan, my master plan.
But I discovered that I could plug into the back of my mum and dad's clock radio.
And that worked as an amplifier.
And then finally I got rid of that and I got the Rhodes because I started, went to artschool, was a basic route for any musician, rock musician in those days.
(30:50):
And then left to join a band.
And then, you know, we were on the cabaret circuit playing and working men's clubs.
And then I was, then I quit cause all my friends had cars, houses.
You know, jobs, had money, I had nothing.
I could just about make a living from doing this cabaret work.
(31:13):
Um, so I thought, okay, I'll stop.
I'll get a job and I'll buy a synthesizer and then I might be able to get a better gig.
So my friend at the time who I've been playing with for years at that stage, BorisWilliams, the drummer, um, he, he was doing this, um, motorcycle messenger in London.
(31:36):
So I did that for a couple of years until I got knocked off by a cab and I managed to buya synth just in time to Boris was playing with the Thompson twins by that stage.
And he said, they're key.
One of the keyboard players was leaving.
Did I want to join?
So that was it.
I just bought this Prophet 600, which is over there.
(31:59):
And, um, so it all fell into place.
then from the Thompson twins.
I quit then them to move to Los Angeles to try and do film music, which didn't work as acomplete disaster.
Then I joined the psychedelic furs and then Boris by that time was in the cure and hesaid, do you want to come on tour with the cure?
(32:22):
And I was like, yes.
So actually I didn't immediately say yes because it was only for a five week tour and Ihad to, I was pretty secure in this.
furs and they wanted me to play on their next record.
So it was, so they sent me the cassette of kiss me, kiss me, kiss me.
And I put it in the cassette player first 30 seconds.
(32:45):
I was like, have to be in this band.
And that was it.
And that was 1987.
I've, uh, I quit once.
So was fired once.
What's going on next?
Well, never knows if we're going to get onto that Roger.
And just before we do jump into the queue, which is obviously a huge part of your story.
I'm just fascinated by working men's clubs, which in Australia we've got similar, but forour US and Canadian listeners and so on, I'm trying to think of an equivalent.
(33:15):
It's a little bit, it's probably where there'd be union clubs, um stuff like that in somecities.
The Cabaret stuff, Roger, Thompson twins.
and psychedelic furs, you couldn't get three more different genres, alone the Cure beinganother whole plane on its own.
I'm assuming that cabaret stuff in the Working Man's Clubs really got you into that modeof being diverse in approaching any piece of music with what it needs.
(33:41):
Yeah, and that has paid huge dividends for me.
I can basically play in any genre and whatever I'm presented with and also because of myear, because I can play in any style.
So I was able to get along musically and also I'm the youngest child in the family.
I'm able to, you know, it was always my job to make people laugh.
(34:05):
So I can always get on with people in bands as well, which is 90 % of it, you know, Imean,
There's so many people that can play to the standard, you know, that's necessary, but it'sa matter of getting on with the, it's being in a band is not easy.
Uh, you know, you spend hours and hours together or more so back in the day, not so much.
(34:27):
don't, we don't do that anymore, but, um, yeah, the cabaret circuit was, uh, so we werethe back end, we were the rhythm section.
was guitar, cables, bass and drums for, uh
an American soul trio called the flirtations.
and we would play their hits and all the soul classics, Holy through the grapevine.
(34:51):
Isn't she lovely?
Um, all these kinds of songs.
I think we're probably only on stage for about an hour max.
And, we, it would be about 11 o'clock at night.
go on stage 10 or 11 and, we get,
And if any of us played a wrong note, we'd get out the back door as fast as we couldbecause the girls, if they got older, they're like, right, we're having a band call
(35:15):
tomorrow.
You've got to practice.
So we'd scarper and then we'd spend all day in these like Northern cities like Stockton orMiddlesbrough and, or Birmingham.
And like you'd get kicked out of the bed and breakfast at about 11 o'clock in the morning.
And it was, it wasn't a lot of fun.
And I think if we did a week.
(35:37):
which was six shows, we got paid 85 pounds a week.
And out of that, had to pay for our own accommodation.
So I used to take home about 50 quid a week.
Um, but at the same time, the rhythm section, the guys, we, had like a jazz fusion band.
So we'd sometimes sneak into the venues and rehearse, but they didn't like it.
(36:01):
I remember being told you lot can't be in here playing that rubbish.
We don't like music here.
It was, you know, I could play, yeah.
And I still can.
Uh, I mean, obviously I've been playing the Cures music for the, for the last nearly 40,nearly 40 years.
(36:23):
What?
Yeah.
So I think it always amazes Robert when he's like, I remember we were doing, uh, he wasdoing a cover of a Bowie song for some compilation and he's like, Roger, what is this?
saxophone phrase and I listened to it once and I played it.
He's like, how did you do that?
I'm like, it's just my ear, you know, my parents both played the piano and I come from avery musical and creative family and you grow up working out how a song is put together by
(36:57):
listening to it and it stays with you.
You you don't lose that ability.
Absolutely.
And, and it is fair to say, Roger, I mean, you mentioned that you, had the roads, um,after the P and it, and so on, obviously joining the Thompson twins and then psychedelic
first, both quite keyboard driven bands, that way you really got immersed.
(37:17):
And as you said, you bought a synth yourself.
That's where you really got into that side of thing.
Yeah, the, the roads got put away.
mean, the roads really was retired in probably 1982 because the eighties, mean, you know,was synth pop and with us, with the, um, Thompson twins, I was playing the profit 600 and
(37:37):
a profit T8.
The T8 cost me an entire tour's income to pay for it.
Uh, then I joined the Furs and at the time I think hold the record for the most
most different models of sequential circuits instruments on stage at the same time.
I had virtually everything.
(37:59):
yeah, was, and then because I took all that with me to, to the Cure, but the Cure wasn'treally about synth sounds.
It was really all about samples.
By the time I got there in 1987, the Kiss Me album was heavily,
influenced uh loads of samples on it, like, you know, heavy string sounds and all of thosekind of Japanesey kind of koto, shakuhachi flute.
(38:30):
And then when we went in to make disintegration, I was, I became the sole keyboard playerin the band, you know, finally there was a keyboard player and nobody else had to worry
about it.
So I got to generate all those sounds.
So I pretty much created the whole soundscape.
There's that word again, sounds great for that album.
(38:52):
And I'm very proud of the sound of that record.
mean, it's all, had em E2 was probably the main, emulator E2 was probably the main sample.
And we had a CD run called universe of sounds.
And you can still find a lot of the samples are still on, are on that.
(39:12):
em And we had Mirage.
I had the Prophet 2000, which the main string samples come from.
I didn't use any, I mean, I had a Minimoog in the studio, but we only used it for soundeffects.
So there were no what I'd call synth sounds on that record.
It's all samples.
(39:33):
Yeah.
And so let's talk, let's jump into the cure then.
And so obviously, as you mentioned, you were initially sort of a touring member.
You received the cassette for Kiss Me, Kiss Me, Kiss Me, which is just an amazing album.
um So what was the initial learning curve having come off the psychedelic Firs and Thomsontwins?
It can't have been an absolute shock learning to learn that stuff, but were thereadjustments you need to make on playing with the cure?
(39:59):
Yeah, play less.
That was the biggest adjustment.
Also for Boris, the drummer.
Cause we came from this kind of, I mean, although we went, we played it in our spare timewith Jazz Fusion and funk, uh Jazz Funk world.
We came from that world and where the more notes you can play the better, the more you getpaid.
(40:21):
Getting into the cue.
mean, Boris wasn't allowed to use a hi-hat for a couple of albums.
And for me, it was about saying the most with the least amount of notes.
that's, there was this post-punk ethic of not, not displaying any virtuosity in your, inyour plane.
(40:47):
And that, I mean, I think to some degree it still exists within the culture of the cure.
The other thing, the other side to that coin is though.
If you screw up, you can't say, it's post-punk.
got to, you have to play what the little, the little that you are playing.
(41:07):
Well, you know, it's not acceptable anymore to, to, to not be able to play like it maybewas in the, the early days.
But you know, the band is very highly accomplished musicians now.
And we know pretty much the entire catalog, which always blows a robot away for somereason.
You say,
What do you think about playing blah, blah, blah?
(41:28):
And Simon and I will just start playing it.
And he's like, how do you know that?
But it's just, you know, it's, think we've got a repertoire of about 120 songs.
I mean, they need dusting off, but, uh, there's a core of about 30 that we can playstanding on our heads.
But the other 90 need a bit of a dust off, but they're good to go.
(41:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
And so, I mean, in those earlier days with The you mentioned yourself that a lot of thesuccess of bands tends to be about the mix of personalities.
Obviously The Cure has a reputation of being a heady concoction of personalities, butyou're one of the longest serving members.
I mean, what made you um so valuable to the team that they kept you on initially as atouring member too?
(42:13):
This is obviously working.
I think Robert enjoyed the fact that I could play exactly what was asked of me.
I think I'd like to say my personality and my rapier wit and character, but I think, andevery time I've come back, it's been like, oh, he'd be like, good, we can play those songs
(42:33):
again.
It's about, I can play what he wants, how he wants it played.
I know what he wants.
When he sends me a new song that he's working on, I know where it's going to go.
I know what the keyboard parts are going to do before I've even heard them.
And it's not a matter of him being predictable.
(42:56):
It's that I know him.
know, I know, I've worked with him for nearly 40 years and I know what he likes and I knowwhat to give him.
And I think that is uh the biggest thing.
The bit, my big, my biggest distraction.
Like I said,
My joke's pretty good as well.
(43:16):
And I do make everyone laugh.
And I think there's need for that.
There's a tension breaking situation because there are times when we don't particularlyget on with each other or we've been on tour for 16 weeks and things are getting,
(43:37):
everyone's getting tired.
But we generally have a really good time.
It's fun.
And the last time I came back to the cure, I remember Robert and I said, look, if we can'tget on now, we never will.
So, and it's been pretty good.
I think I'm always a sort of thorn in his side though, because I don't let him get awaywith stuff.
(44:00):
I'll always bring stuff to his attention.
And I think he finds me quite annoying.
But I mean, as you know, as you know, Roger, that's the sign of a great outfit too.
You don't want to surround yourself with a bunch of yes people.
think that's a credit to Robert.
You surround yourself with yes people, you end up with bland outputs.
So I think that's probably part of the secret of it.
Um, and so if you don't mind, I'm actually thinking for something different, we're goingto work backwards because covering off some of these albums you've been involved with
(44:28):
obviously could be a whole episode on their own, but songs of a lost world.
Just unbelievable.
know I was super excited when it was released and you know, even before I heard the firstsong, just tell us about the approach and how it's sort of a uh summation of all those
years of working together.
And obviously as a keyboard player, what you had to put into that, cause it's obviously ahuge component of it.
(44:50):
Yeah.
I said to Robert a few years ago, said, we need to make one last record and it needs to bethe most, the saddest, darkest, blackest record we could ever possibly make.
And he didn't disagree.
And unlike all the albums since The Head on the Door, Robert wrote all of these songshimself and they're quite personal to him.
(45:20):
And he actually played a lot of the keyboards on them.
I mean, he's not what I'd call a keyboard player, but he can, he knows what he wants.
And with the help of MIDI and auto correct and all that kind of stuff, he can get by.
And even, even when I would ask it, he'd send me a part and I'd say, just let me play thathow I'd play it.
(45:45):
And he'd be like, uh
I would play it again, but I would play it as he played it, you know, so there wasn't alot of room for creative input into that record.
Um, because I think it was a very, very personal record for him.
Um, and I, I appreciate that and I respect it, you know, we, there's no reason why he hasto put our songs on a record.
(46:14):
and I was blown away by the success of it and very happy for him.
Uh, that he could come back after, what was it?
18 years and do that and get so much respect and love.
Um, so yeah, not, not probably the least involvement in any record that I've had.
(46:39):
Um, so that sets it to one side for me.
Yeah, absolutely.
Did you have to do much preparation as far as touring Roger, as far as how you managethose songs on tour?
We toured, while we toured in 22, 23, we did about five of them, I think, or maybe four orfive.
(47:02):
So I already knew those.
And then when he hit us with the rest of the album, about a month before we did the showin London, the premiere, and I just worked them out.
He sends midi files or...
I didn't actually hear the album until it was released.
So, um, that's always interesting.
(47:24):
uh you know, I think we, we took it to another level when we played it live.
I think it was, um, I think we gave it a lot more, uh, feeling and a lot more force andstrength.
Um, it's always fun working out songs when, but like I said, it's not that difficult forme.
(47:48):
So long.
There's so many people that can play to the standard, you know, that's necessary.
But it's a matter of getting on with the, it's being in a band is not easy.
(00:21):
Welcome to the Keyboard Chronicles podcast for keyboard players.
I'm your host, David Holloway, and I'm very excited to be here with you.
I'm particularly excited because I've just come off a 90 plus minute interview with theamazing Roger O'Donnell.
So in this first of two parts with Roger, we cover off his amazing new solo album,Projections.
And I cannot recommend highly enough checking that out.
(00:43):
I've linked to it in the show notes.
I've had the pleasure as you hear in the interview of listening to it a number of times,and I'll be listening to it a lot more.
Really, really worth a listen.
If you're a lover of brilliant electronic music with lots of emotion, this is a go-topiece of work.
But aside from that, we also happen to talk about Roger's near 40 year
time with The Cure and also some other bands that you will well and truly recognize, butmay not have expected he played a role in and lots more.
(01:13):
And then there's even more to come in part two, but I'll let you jump in, have a listen topart one and I'll talk to you at the start of part two.
Roger, it's an absolute pleasure and honour to have you on the show, sir, and how are youthis fine autumn sort of middle of the day for you?
(01:39):
Yeah.
Well, thank you.
It's an honor to be asked to be, uh, to come and talk about myself and keyboards.
One of my favorite topics.
It's miserable.
We just got back from Italy and it was 30 degrees 32 and there it's about 15 and I'm inDevon and it's raining.
(02:00):
So pretty much standard.
It sounds it.
Yes.
I've had the pleasure of being to Devon once and I understand you.
Um, so it's, it's, uh, as I've said in the introduction to the show, like many of ourguests, it's difficult to encapsulate your whole career in an hour or a little bit more,
but we're going to try.
Um, and I thought we'd start off firstly talking about your last 12 months, how busyyou've been leading into you've got an amazing new album coming out.
(02:26):
So just tell us over the last year or so what you've been up to.
Um, yeah, well, it's no secret that, during 23 and 24, I was diagnosed with lymphoma.
And, uh, so exactly 12 months ago today, I just finished treatment.
So I was pretty wasted and just looking forward to doing nothing.
(02:48):
But then of course we got the email from the boss and we, uh, we launched the album, songsfor a lost world.
So that sort of, I managed to have a bit of rest, but then I spent about a month preparingfor those shows and then the shows were over in about a week.
(03:08):
And then I really concentrated on finishing this album, Projections, which is the thirdelectronic album I've done.
So I always feel uncomfortable with things in twos.
Like I think it has to be three to be finished, you know, to be that.
to be complete.
I've been thinking about releasing uh a third electronic album for a long time.
(03:34):
Some of the songs have been around a while, but a lot of them came up after that period ofreleasing the last Cure album and me recovering from all the treatment I had.
So it was very much, I was very cognizant of the fact that I didn't want to do uh an albumthat...
(03:55):
that was all about me being ill and like, because that was a bit of a trap to fall into,but actually while I was, while I was ill, while I was going through treatment, I didn't
play at all because I just, it was just too emotional for me.
And it was a, so once I was in the clear and feeling better than I really dived into thisrecord.
(04:17):
And also at the same time, I think last summer I took delivery of my new rose, Mark eight.
And that really came to the fore in the record.
was, it was my main instrument for many years back in the day.
And, uh, I've still got my 1977 suitcase piano over there.
(04:39):
Uh, doesn't sound quite as good as it should anymore.
Well, that's why I got this one.
And, and it really was like meeting up with an old friend again.
And I've always been very wary of putting, of most of my electronic albums are purely MoogVoyager.
And I've always been very wary of introducing other tones and other instruments into it.
(05:01):
But just like that, the Rhodes just sat in there.
It almost took over from the Moog, but not quite.
But I was very happy to do that.
So then I finished uh mixing around January, February.
And then I thought, let's have a go at this Atmos malarkey.
(05:22):
So I thought.
I went into a studio in London, which shall we remain nameless and uh spent a day doingAtmos mixes, which was interesting.
Um, I'm not sure if I'm convinced because actually it lends itself very much to electronicinstruments because they don't really exist in the real world.
(05:46):
You know, they don't, unless you plug them in, they don't make a sound.
So you can kind of put them wherever you want them.
Whereas if you're at most mixing a piano and four cellos, you know, you can't stick onecello up in here over here and the piano down there.
So it lends itself to it, but it still felt quite artificial and a bit like a gimmick.
(06:07):
Um, but I was, I was quite happy with the mixes.
We had a few problems with them.
Um, there was some issues, but we went back after five times, five tries, we got it right.
And then I went back and mastered for vinyl.
with a person that I've been working with for 20 years, Guy Davie at Electric Mastering.
(06:30):
And that was the real world for me, really.
know, hearing the mixes in stereo, which, you know, even stereo is kind of artificial,really, isn't it?
I don't know, we're getting a bit esoteric now, but hearing those masters, it just blew meaway.
And Guy was like, yeah, don't mess about with that Atmos.
(06:53):
But I'm glad I did so the album will be released on all of the streaming.
em
platforms as all the digital stuff will be one mix and then the vinyl is going to be adifferent mix.
There's slightly, the mixes are slightly tweaked and it's also a different master.
(07:15):
So it will sound significantly different, different enough for it to be worth buying thevinyl.
But if you have that link.
I certainly am and I will be.
so, Roger, I need to ask you, you've already prompted me on two questions I hadn't plannedon asking.
One I'll save to later, but with the Atmos, when you say you weren't convinced here, whatsort of challenges did it pose?
(07:36):
Is it, there is too much freedom with Atmos and where you can position instruments and itactually becomes more of a restraint than actually freedom.
It just seems artificial.
It's like, okay, we'll put that synth over there.
Uh, and then we'll make it move from the back to the front or we'll get this sequence andput it down there and that'll go up and down.
And I'm like, why, why?
(07:58):
It's like, there's no, there's no good reason.
If you're mixing analog instruments in Atmos.
So I think you can get a really cool situation where you're actually placed in the middleof the string quartet or the orchestra.
And that makes sense.
But for electronic music, mean, I suppose, yeah, it's just another effect, isn't it?
(08:19):
But I was determined to try it.
I thought it would be interesting.
And I do like listening to things in, in Atmos.
em But maybe it's just because it's a gimmick.
But then did people say that about stereo?
You know, I remember wearing a badge at art school that said back to Mono and that was inmid seventies.
(08:41):
You're absolutely right.
No, that's an amazing, thank you for that.
That's good insight.
And so let's move on.
The reason I said I plan on buying the vinyl is for very good reason.
Cause you gave me the privilege of listening to the album in the past week.
And it is utterly amazing.
And I'm not just saying that because you're a guest on the show, but it's right up myalley and I just, love it to bits.
(09:04):
And I've listened to it sort of three or four times.
And so I thought we'd start firstly with the album projection, just describe the album inyour own words of what you're wanting to achieve with it for a start.
Um, well, I wanted to go, as I said, I wanted to go back into the electronic domain, uh,because I felt that it was unfinished having released two albums.
released one in 2005, which was called, uh, the truth in you truth in me.
(09:31):
So let's say like that.
It's a long time ago.
And the second one was songs from the silver box.
Um, and then I thought, and it needs a third.
So I was determined to do a third.
mean, you know, there could be a fourth.
but the third was definitely called for.
And so some of the songs were from back, back in the day.
(09:52):
And then some of them were very recent.
Like, like I said, after I'd finished treatment and was recovering and I just wanted it tobe like a summation of everything that I've heard and everywhere I've been musically.
I just wanted to like,
(10:14):
take this moment to uh step back or step forward to the keyboards and just let it out, youknow, which is very much my, the way I write.
don't sit down and go, I'm going to write a song today.
Um, and then, you know, labor over it.
just, you know, if it comes, comes and it's usually from, from a sequence or a pattern orsomething on the roads now, now I've got it sitting next to me.
(10:44):
And I just wanted it to feel like a reflection of everything I've ever done.
But rather than calling it reflection, it's projections, which is like where I'm going togo next.
So it's about everything I've done and everything about where I'm going to go.
And it's not a song about being ill.
(11:07):
It's not a song about recovery.
Album, it's not an album about recovery.
It's just.
Uh, I guess the joy of being able to play again and, just thinking about where I've beenand everything I've ever heard and everything, all of those influences.
And it always brings a smile to my face when I hear something that I played and I knowexactly where it's come from.
(11:33):
You know, it's not plagiarism.
I just know where that influence has come from.
And, um, one of the biggest compliments, uh, I sent it to a couple of friends fromToronto.
And they said, yeah, it sounds like you.
So yeah, I was quite happy about that.
And funny enough, I did a seminar with Philip glass a few years ago in California and wewere talking endlessly.
(11:58):
And before we went on to the, to the, to the stage, she said to me, you know, when I sitdown at the piano and I start playing it, it just sounds like me and it's so frustrating.
And I'm like, Philip, you're crazy.
uh
People would give their right arm to sit down and sound like you and that's what youstrive for.
(12:18):
I remember I used to think if I could distill everything that I am and everything thatI've heard into one note, that would be fantastic.
But I think it's probably three notes, three or four.
I can't get it into one.
And look, I mean, I think you've done a brilliant attempt at distilling it because yeah,the emotion it's, I'm not surprised about the way you've represented the album, but the
(12:44):
emotion on it is really, um, it's really strong, but as you said, not in a negative or arecovery or a treatment sort of way, it's just this amazing emotion throughout the songs.
So I did want to ask you about a few of the songs and what stood out to me was obviouslythe title song itself, projections.
The first thing is a keyboard player myself I picked up is.
that electric piano, that road sounds wonderful.
(13:06):
You've just described why, why that is the case.
So the, the Mark 8 is obviously to your ears, an amazing instrument, which I'm notsurprised by.
Yeah, it's, um, they've done a great job.
you know, they bought the rights to the name and they started off with a, I think quite asmall amount of money and they've managed to turn it around.
(13:28):
I think they've shipped their 500th, um, instrument and it's not a cheap instrument.
I mean, it's up there around 10 grand once you add all the stuff on it.
But the basis of it, the harp and the action is all the same.
They've just refined it.
The keyboard is manufactured by the people that make Steinway's keyboards.
(13:52):
It's really nice.
You know, it hasn't got any, uh, lateral kind of slop to it, which mine has, cause allthe, the, the, the, um, cushioning is all worn away.
But it sounds great.
mean, I think I need to tweak mine cause it, uh, I need to move the pickup slightlyfurther away from the ends of the tines to give it a more of a bell like,
(14:15):
uh, resonance, but it's really nice.
And I was very, um, dubious about having onboard effects, even though, um, it was Cyrilfrom, uh, Cyril Lark from MOOC that did them.
And I'm really old friend of Cyril's.
So I was like, it's going to be good if it's Cyril's done it.
And I was like, yeah, you know, it should be pure.
(14:37):
It should be, you know, they shouldn't be going through anything else.
It should just be coming out of the preamp.
But then when I played it and I hit the delay.
button, was like, oh yeah, okay, well this is cool.
Cause he's just, he's done such a great job on it.
And Nerys, of course, they've midded it.
So it's even better.
So it can sit in every studio and be the, like the master mother keyboard.
(15:02):
So, but it just sounds right, you know, and it's not out of tune and it's not, there's notnotes missing.
And that's, you know, I love old things.
I've got a 19.
23 Steinway, uh, grand in the, in the house.
And I love it, but it needs continual work.
And when I'm in the studio, I just want things, you know, I don't have time to mess it up.
(15:26):
I mean, I've got loads of time, but when I'm, when I've like, got that creative flow, Idon't want anything in the way.
I just need to be able to play the piano or the synth and it works.
So having a brand new one is quite, quite amazing.
And also I got to know the.
guys from the company and I've actually invested so I'm a part owner in Rhodes which isvery very very cool.
(15:51):
Yeah.
I'm sure they're thrilled to have you as well.
And so I mean, a couple of the other songs, Roger, two plus two is three.
Tell us a little bit behind that one.
That's again, beautiful song.
I love the, it's very rhythmic and it's sort of got this beautiful mix of contemporarysounds and including, you know, the piano is sort of a retro feel as well.
Tell us a little bit about that one.
(16:12):
That's the oldest song on the record and that sort of harks back to probably the end ofthe last electronic record that I released, which was in 2010 maybe.
So that's quite an old song.
And that sort of uses a lot of the ways of creating that I used on those albums, buildingup patterns one at a time with the Voyager.
(16:39):
And then I send it to my.
send it to my friend Brian in Philadelphia, his band's name is ALCA.
And he does all the percussion, which is amazing because I don't have the patience forthat.
Like I was saying, I don't have time in the studio.
I just don't have the patience to move little beats around and then bring in samples.
(16:59):
So I send him a song with a of a guide rhythm on it.
And then he sends me back like 10 to 20 tracks of rhythm, of beats and things.
And he always says, just use what you want.
know, you don't have to use it all.
And I always use it all.
And on that particular song, he sent back some melodic ideas as well, which I used, whichwas, which was really nice.
(17:24):
But that one is really, really, like I said, it's the oldest song on the record.
And it's really the bridge between this record and the last record, I think.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I did want to say there's such continuity between those two records.
I won't claim to have listened to songs from the silver box when it came out, but Ilistened to it subsequent to projections and I went, wow, I can, I can totally see the
(17:46):
continuity.
It's amazing.
Um, my favorite track, um, Roger is I can only see you in a mirror.
it's just, it's absolutely stunning song.
Just tell us a little bit.
Again, the story behind the emotion of this track, to me that was one of the ones wherethe emotion really came through strongly.
Yeah.
Well, uh, that I can only see him in a mirror.
(18:07):
The title comes from, uh, my, uh, long time hairdresser, Keith, who died last year.
Cause I only ever saw him in the mirror.
I'll be sitting there and he'd be cutting and we used to have endless conversations aboutmusic and fashion and style and everything.
And he was just as a staple in my life.
You know, I never thought he wouldn't be there.
(18:28):
It's like, was, compared him to like Levi jeans or, know, uh,
whatever, can't think of anything else.
And so that song really is about him and about the emotion that I feel.
Every time I drive into London, I miss him.
You know, I feel that his presence isn't there.
And em he was a big fan of, he would go every year to Trinidad to the steel drum festivalsat carnival.
(18:57):
And so there's some elements of that in there, not consciously, but when I listened backto it, was like,
Yeah, that's what that is.
So, and that hasn't got any rhythm on it.
No beats on that song.
Cause I think it just stood up for itself.
That's a combination of probably every synth I've got in my studio, the move one overthere.
And, I've got a.
(19:17):
Profit sequential, fix, which, and that's got some nice little samples and nice little,uh, sequences in it.
And, uh, so I used a combination of everything on that song, no roads on that track.
No, that's right.
You know, absolutely amazing.
And I do want to link back.
You mentioned that that's the third of your in quotation marks synth albums.
(19:40):
And then you've got this other side of you, this amazing output that is more in the pianoorchestrally driven domain.
So I did want to ask you about 2022's seven different words for love.
That's obviously a very different approach to recording, but just tell us looking back nowsort of three years after the fact, what that meant to you and how you approach that
album.
It's obviously a whole different ball game.
(20:03):
That album was driven entirely by one instrument.
So I was about to have my Steinway restored and the piano restorer came around and hestarted to tell me about this instrument called an una coda, which is basically a piano.
uh But you can put damping, I mean, you can put damping on any piano, but this isspecifically made so that you can layer uh fabric against the strings.
(20:31):
And it makes it very percussive.
So I downloaded the sample and I just started playing and it just made me play these emlike seek virtually sequences on the, on the, on the, on the instrument.
And that just led, and I wrote all, I think there's seven songs and one extra.
(20:52):
Yeah.
Seven different words for love.
you go.
So there are eight songs.
I wrote them all in about two weeks.
So, and then I spoke to.
Paul, Paul Corkett, who's worked with Acure for 25 years.
said, do you think I need to buy an own recorder and replay all the parts?
So what do you think the samples are okay?
(21:12):
And he was like, ah, samples sound great.
So I kept, kept it like that.
And then we went into the studio in Bath and recorded, my friend Miriam recorded the celloparts and then Paul actually mixed that record.
So, and it was just a very delicate record and it was just.
very delicate little songs and little melodies and they just sort of came out of me.
(21:36):
Actually the final one, one last word.
During the beginning of that record, when I had a few songs, I sent them to my friendOrion, who's a producer, and he was working on a movie in America with a first-time
director em who's now a very good friend of mine.
(22:00):
Darren Legallo and he played him one of the songs and Darren was like, okay, we need himto do the soundtrack.
So I want this music on the soundtrack.
And so I thought, so Aurene said, up for it?
And I said, yeah, I mean, it's done.
The record's done.
It's easy.
can just place, I can just place the songs on the record.
(22:20):
Little did I know six months later that I would be writing 25 actual discrete cues for it.
And I didn't, I think I used a couple of songs from the album.
But most of the songs on the album were too emotional for the film.
It was like, I can't use this, it overpowers the scene.
I'm like, okay then.
(22:43):
It was hard work.
It really was.
But in the end, it was really worth it.
I'm very happy that I did it.
So I ended up with a whole album of my own stuff.
And then there's 25.
other cues that were written specifically for the movie.
And Darren asked me to write something specific and that's where that song came out of.
(23:09):
And I was like, wow, if you hadn't asked me or hadn't pushed me, that song would neverhave existed.
So yeah, it was a really nice collaboration.
in the end, know, so I'd score the whole film, send it to him and we did a FaceTime andhe'd be like, I'm not really loving this one.
maybe more soundscape.
And I'm like, what the fuck does soundscape mean?
(23:31):
And so we went backwards and forwards in the end, we were getting there.
And then finally he came over and came and sat in the producers on the producers crapcouch and we did it all.
We just knocked it out and it was all, and then we got to the end of the movie and he'slike, shit, this song hasn't got a cue.
(23:52):
It needs a cue.
And I'm like,
So he's going to sit there while I try and write something from a blank page.
And Mimi, my partner, had been with me throughout the process, as a muse, like as atouchstone for everything.
And I looked at her, she looked at me and we're like, this is not going to happen.
(24:15):
But luckily we found something that I'd already written that worked.
So I don't know if you've ever been in that position where somebody's waiting for you towrite a piece of music.
and just standing over you.
It's different in the studio, you know, when I have to play a solo, I have to come up witha part with Robert because we've been working together for so long that, you know, it's
(24:36):
very natural.
But with a complete stranger, uh but we're, we've scheduled the next movie.
I'm going to score his next movie.
And uh so it's going to be a much more organic approach though this time.
And I'm going to have written pieces and we'll play them on set.
So it will be a more, I'll be more involved from the beginning.
(24:59):
So I'm quite looking forward to that.
And you've just answered my question was did the whole thing turn you off uh soundtrackcomposition, but it sounds like it hasn't.
So that's a great outcome.
Well, the jury's out on that because it was every time after every FaceTime we do, I'd sayto Mimi, I can't do this.
(25:20):
I'm just going to tell him I quit.
But I didn't.
And I'm very glad that I did.
The film's called Sam and Kate and it stars Dustin Hoffman and Sissy Spacek.
So it was a pretty, it was a good film to start work on.
Yeah, absolutely.
And we'll be linking to that for sure.
(25:41):
And you've also led me down another path I wasn't intending at this stage, but let's doit.
So you mentioned Philip Glass.
You've obviously had a relationship there before that I was aware of.
Just tell us a little bit about what you've gained from working with Philip in thedifferent ways that you have over the years.
I only met him once for a few days, I never actually worked with him.
(26:07):
I did write a piece of music and we were going to perform at his yearly Tibet fundraiser,but that didn't happen for some reason.
Just being in his presence, I mean, for me, in that kind of...
That Steve Reich, that whole world.
(26:29):
I love that.
My orchestral music doesn't really fall into that, that area.
It's not as minimal.
I think I'm way more melodic than those guys are.
But just talking to him and hearing him and so he said to us, so, so how do you guys writethen?
You know, how do you score?
(26:50):
I'm like, I use logic and then I, and then I give it to an arranger.
just to make sure everything's in the right place.
And then I spit it out.
He said, well, I still use a pencil and manuscript paper.
And he said, I'll tell you why that's better.
Because at the end of it, I sign every page and I sell them.
He said, you can't sell a digital file.
(27:11):
I guess this was before, uh what was it?
What were those things that everybody went bankrupt with?
the NFTs, yeah.
Yeah.
Uh, which I never, never completely understood.
In fact, I, I don't understand them at all, but nobody else did cause they've all gone andthey've all disappeared and everybody lost all their money.
So yeah, it was, it was a great, I mean, I didn't hesitate when I, um, my friend Bradley,was VP at Google at the time said, do you want to, do you want to fly out to San Francisco
(27:40):
and do a seminar with Philip plus?
I'm like, I'm there.
Cause he's a, you know, he's a hero.
Uh, and it's great to be able to meet those people.
And I always kind of bear that in mind when somebody comes up to me and says, Roger, suchan honor to me.
You know, you've been a huge influence on my life, on my plane, on my life, on my plane.
(28:04):
And rather than, you know, say, don't be stupid.
Uh, you know, I haven't influenced anyone.
I always remember how I feel around my heroes and, and you just have to be, you know, justbe thankful.
And it's nice that if somebody can, if you can give some
somebody something to take away and affect their plan.
It's a great thing.
Absolutely.
(28:25):
Couldn't agree more.
And so let's talk about your heroes and actually go back a decade or five to your musicalupbringing, Roger.
So just tell us in a little bit as far as your musical upbringing as a child, what got youinto music in the first place in those early years?
Yeah.
Well, um, as I always like to say, I was born next to the piano and I've never moved veryfar away from one.
(28:50):
Um, I was born next to the piano at home in the living room.
And from the moment I could walk, was playing it or hitting it or my mom would play andI'd sit underneath it and push the keys up.
And then I started going to see bands and my brother taught me to play 12 bar blues.
And then I would buy sheet music.
(29:12):
Um,
I had some piano lessons, but I didn't really get on with that because I could play by earand I was like, well, this just doesn't make sense to me.
This is just like painful torture.
uh I wish I'd stuck with it, but because to be able to play by ear and by music isamazing, but I've got by on what I've got.
(29:33):
And so there I started hanging around with bands, uh predominantly kind of blues rockbands in those days in the early seventies.
And, um, at the time, the only way you could play with a band was electric piano or anorgan.
Uh, I hated the organ at the time.
I love it now, but, um, so I got an electric piano.
(29:55):
I said to my dad, I want to buy an electric piano.
And he said, well, if you get a job and make half the money, I'll give you the other half,which was, you know, I've never forgotten that lesson.
And I think that the piano only costs about 40 quid.
But I don't remember how much I was getting paid.
Obviously it wasn't very much.
uh So I bought a Hohner Pianet, which had these little sticky pads on the end of each keythat plucked a tine.
(30:23):
And I didn't have an amplifier.
That was a big, hole in my plan, my master plan.
But I discovered that I could plug into the back of my mum and dad's clock radio.
And that worked as an amplifier.
And then finally I got rid of that and I got the Rhodes because I started, went to artschool, was a basic route for any musician, rock musician in those days.
(30:50):
And then left to join a band.
And then, you know, we were on the cabaret circuit playing and working men's clubs.
And then I was, then I quit cause all my friends had cars, houses.
You know, jobs, had money, I had nothing.
I could just about make a living from doing this cabaret work.
(31:13):
Um, so I thought, okay, I'll stop.
I'll get a job and I'll buy a synthesizer and then I might be able to get a better gig.
So my friend at the time who I've been playing with for years at that stage, BorisWilliams, the drummer, um, he, he was doing this, um, motorcycle messenger in London.
(31:36):
So I did that for a couple of years until I got knocked off by a cab and I managed to buya synth just in time to Boris was playing with the Thompson twins by that stage.
And he said, they're key.
One of the keyboard players was leaving.
Did I want to join?
So that was it.
I just bought this Prophet 600, which is over there.
(31:59):
And, um, so it all fell into place.
then from the Thompson twins.
I quit then them to move to Los Angeles to try and do film music, which didn't work as acomplete disaster.
Then I joined the psychedelic furs and then Boris by that time was in the cure and hesaid, do you want to come on tour with the cure?
(32:22):
And I was like, yes.
So actually I didn't immediately say yes because it was only for a five week tour and Ihad to, I was pretty secure in this.
furs and they wanted me to play on their next record.
So it was, so they sent me the cassette of kiss me, kiss me, kiss me.
And I put it in the cassette player first 30 seconds.
(32:45):
I was like, have to be in this band.
And that was it.
And that was 1987.
I've, uh, I quit once.
So was fired once.
What's going on next?
Well, never knows if we're going to get onto that Roger.
And just before we do jump into the queue, which is obviously a huge part of your story.
I'm just fascinated by working men's clubs, which in Australia we've got similar, but forour US and Canadian listeners and so on, I'm trying to think of an equivalent.
(33:15):
It's a little bit, it's probably where there'd be union clubs, um stuff like that in somecities.
The Cabaret stuff, Roger, Thompson twins.
and psychedelic furs, you couldn't get three more different genres, alone the Cure beinganother whole plane on its own.
I'm assuming that cabaret stuff in the Working Man's Clubs really got you into that modeof being diverse in approaching any piece of music with what it needs.
(33:41):
Yeah, and that has paid huge dividends for me.
I can basically play in any genre and whatever I'm presented with and also because of myear, because I can play in any style.
So I was able to get along musically and also I'm the youngest child in the family.
I'm able to, you know, it was always my job to make people laugh.
(34:05):
So I can always get on with people in bands as well, which is 90 % of it, you know, Imean,
There's so many people that can play to the standard, you know, that's necessary, but it'sa matter of getting on with the, it's being in a band is not easy.
Uh, you know, you spend hours and hours together or more so back in the day, not so much.
(34:27):
don't, we don't do that anymore, but, um, yeah, the cabaret circuit was, uh, so we werethe back end, we were the rhythm section.
was guitar, cables, bass and drums for, uh
an American soul trio called the flirtations.
and we would play their hits and all the soul classics, Holy through the grapevine.
(34:51):
Isn't she lovely?
Um, all these kinds of songs.
I think we're probably only on stage for about an hour max.
And, we, it would be about 11 o'clock at night.
go on stage 10 or 11 and, we get,
And if any of us played a wrong note, we'd get out the back door as fast as we couldbecause the girls, if they got older, they're like, right, we're having a band call
(35:15):
tomorrow.
You've got to practice.
So we'd scarper and then we'd spend all day in these like Northern cities like Stockton orMiddlesbrough and, or Birmingham.
And like you'd get kicked out of the bed and breakfast at about 11 o'clock in the morning.
And it was, it wasn't a lot of fun.
And I think if we did a week.
(35:37):
which was six shows, we got paid 85 pounds a week.
And out of that, had to pay for our own accommodation.
So I used to take home about 50 quid a week.
Um, but at the same time, the rhythm section, the guys, we, had like a jazz fusion band.
So we'd sometimes sneak into the venues and rehearse, but they didn't like it.
(36:01):
I remember being told you lot can't be in here playing that rubbish.
We don't like music here.
It was, you know, I could play, yeah.
And I still can.
Uh, I mean, obviously I've been playing the Cures music for the, for the last nearly 40,nearly 40 years.
(36:23):
What?
Yeah.
So I think it always amazes Robert when he's like, I remember we were doing, uh, he wasdoing a cover of a Bowie song for some compilation and he's like, Roger, what is this?
saxophone phrase and I listened to it once and I played it.
He's like, how did you do that?
I'm like, it's just my ear, you know, my parents both played the piano and I come from avery musical and creative family and you grow up working out how a song is put together by
(36:57):
listening to it and it stays with you.
You you don't lose that ability.
Absolutely.
And, and it is fair to say, Roger, I mean, you mentioned that you, had the roads, um,after the P and it, and so on, obviously joining the Thompson twins and then psychedelic
first, both quite keyboard driven bands, that way you really got immersed.
(37:17):
And as you said, you bought a synth yourself.
That's where you really got into that side of thing.
Yeah, the, the roads got put away.
mean, the roads really was retired in probably 1982 because the eighties, mean, you know,was synth pop and with us, with the, um, Thompson twins, I was playing the profit 600 and
(37:37):
a profit T8.
The T8 cost me an entire tour's income to pay for it.
Uh, then I joined the Furs and at the time I think hold the record for the most
most different models of sequential circuits instruments on stage at the same time.
I had virtually everything.
(37:59):
yeah, was, and then because I took all that with me to, to the Cure, but the Cure wasn'treally about synth sounds.
It was really all about samples.
By the time I got there in 1987, the Kiss Me album was heavily,
influenced uh loads of samples on it, like, you know, heavy string sounds and all of thosekind of Japanesey kind of koto, shakuhachi flute.
(38:30):
And then when we went in to make disintegration, I was, I became the sole keyboard playerin the band, you know, finally there was a keyboard player and nobody else had to worry
about it.
So I got to generate all those sounds.
So I pretty much created the whole soundscape.
There's that word again, sounds great for that album.
(38:52):
And I'm very proud of the sound of that record.
mean, it's all, had em E2 was probably the main, emulator E2 was probably the main sample.
And we had a CD run called universe of sounds.
And you can still find a lot of the samples are still on, are on that.
(39:12):
em And we had Mirage.
I had the Prophet 2000, which the main string samples come from.
I didn't use any, I mean, I had a Minimoog in the studio, but we only used it for soundeffects.
So there were no what I'd call synth sounds on that record.
It's all samples.
(39:33):
Yeah.
And so let's talk, let's jump into the cure then.
And so obviously, as you mentioned, you were initially sort of a touring member.
You received the cassette for Kiss Me, Kiss Me, Kiss Me, which is just an amazing album.
um So what was the initial learning curve having come off the psychedelic Firs and Thomsontwins?
It can't have been an absolute shock learning to learn that stuff, but were thereadjustments you need to make on playing with the cure?
(39:59):
Yeah, play less.
That was the biggest adjustment.
Also for Boris, the drummer.
Cause we came from this kind of, I mean, although we went, we played it in our spare timewith Jazz Fusion and funk, uh Jazz Funk world.
We came from that world and where the more notes you can play the better, the more you getpaid.
(40:21):
Getting into the cue.
mean, Boris wasn't allowed to use a hi-hat for a couple of albums.
And for me, it was about saying the most with the least amount of notes.
that's, there was this post-punk ethic of not, not displaying any virtuosity in your, inyour plane.
(40:47):
And that, I mean, I think to some degree it still exists within the culture of the cure.
The other thing, the other side to that coin is though.
If you screw up, you can't say, it's post-punk.
got to, you have to play what the little, the little that you are playing.
(41:07):
Well, you know, it's not acceptable anymore to, to, to not be able to play like it maybewas in the, the early days.
But you know, the band is very highly accomplished musicians now.
And we know pretty much the entire catalog, which always blows a robot away for somereason.
You say,
What do you think about playing blah, blah, blah?
(41:28):
And Simon and I will just start playing it.
And he's like, how do you know that?
But it's just, you know, it's, think we've got a repertoire of about 120 songs.
I mean, they need dusting off, but, uh, there's a core of about 30 that we can playstanding on our heads.
But the other 90 need a bit of a dust off, but they're good to go.
(41:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
And so, I mean, in those earlier days with The you mentioned yourself that a lot of thesuccess of bands tends to be about the mix of personalities.
Obviously The Cure has a reputation of being a heady concoction of personalities, butyou're one of the longest serving members.
I mean, what made you um so valuable to the team that they kept you on initially as atouring member too?
(42:13):
This is obviously working.
I think Robert enjoyed the fact that I could play exactly what was asked of me.
I think I'd like to say my personality and my rapier wit and character, but I think, andevery time I've come back, it's been like, oh, he'd be like, good, we can play those songs
(42:33):
again.
It's about, I can play what he wants, how he wants it played.
I know what he wants.
When he sends me a new song that he's working on, I know where it's going to go.
I know what the keyboard parts are going to do before I've even heard them.
And it's not a matter of him being predictable.
(42:56):
It's that I know him.
know, I know, I've worked with him for nearly 40 years and I know what he likes and I knowwhat to give him.
And I think that is uh the biggest thing.
The bit, my big, my biggest distraction.
Like I said,
My joke's pretty good as well.
(43:16):
And I do make everyone laugh.
And I think there's need for that.
There's a tension breaking situation because there are times when we don't particularlyget on with each other or we've been on tour for 16 weeks and things are getting,
(43:37):
everyone's getting tired.
But we generally have a really good time.
It's fun.
And the last time I came back to the cure, I remember Robert and I said, look, if we can'tget on now, we never will.
So, and it's been pretty good.
I think I'm always a sort of thorn in his side though, because I don't let him get awaywith stuff.
(44:00):
I'll always bring stuff to his attention.
And I think he finds me quite annoying.
But I mean, as you know, as you know, Roger, that's the sign of a great outfit too.
You don't want to surround yourself with a bunch of yes people.
think that's a credit to Robert.
You surround yourself with yes people, you end up with bland outputs.
So I think that's probably part of the secret of it.
Um, and so if you don't mind, I'm actually thinking for something different, we're goingto work backwards because covering off some of these albums you've been involved with
(44:28):
obviously could be a whole episode on their own, but songs of a lost world.
Just unbelievable.
know I was super excited when it was released and you know, even before I heard the firstsong, just tell us about the approach and how it's sort of a uh summation of all those
years of working together.
And obviously as a keyboard player, what you had to put into that, cause it's obviously ahuge component of it.
(44:50):
Yeah.
I said to Robert a few years ago, said, we need to make one last record and it needs to bethe most, the saddest, darkest, blackest record we could ever possibly make.
And he didn't disagree.
And unlike all the albums since The Head on the Door, Robert wrote all of these songshimself and they're quite personal to him.
(45:20):
And he actually played a lot of the keyboards on them.
I mean, he's not what I'd call a keyboard player, but he can, he knows what he wants.
And with the help of MIDI and auto correct and all that kind of stuff, he can get by.
And even, even when I would ask it, he'd send me a part and I'd say, just let me play thathow I'd play it.
(45:45):
And he'd be like, uh
I would play it again, but I would play it as he played it, you know, so there wasn't alot of room for creative input into that record.
Um, because I think it was a very, very personal record for him.
Um, and I, I appreciate that and I respect it, you know, we, there's no reason why he hasto put our songs on a record.
(46:14):
and I was blown away by the success of it and very happy for him.
Uh, that he could come back after, what was it?
18 years and do that and get so much respect and love.
Um, so yeah, not, not probably the least involvement in any record that I've had.
(46:39):
Um, so that sets it to one side for me.
Yeah, absolutely.
Did you have to do much preparation as far as touring Roger, as far as how you managethose songs on tour?
We toured, while we toured in 22, 23, we did about five of them, I think, or maybe four orfive.
(47:02):
So I already knew those.
And then when he hit us with the rest of the album, about a month before we did the showin London, the premiere, and I just worked them out.
He sends midi files or...
I didn't actually hear the album until it was released.
So, um, that's always interesting.
(47:24):
uh you know, I think we, we took it to another level when we played it live.
I think it was, um, I think we gave it a lot more, uh, feeling and a lot more force andstrength.
Um, it's always fun working out songs when, but like I said, it's not that difficult forme.
(47:48):
So long.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Ruthie's Table 4
For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home. On River Cafe Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers. Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt, and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks. Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation. For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/ Web: https://rivercafe.co.uk/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/therivercafelondon/ Facebook: https://en-gb.facebook.com/therivercafelondon/ For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.