February 20, 2025 • 39 mins
How do we ensure kindness and justice in a prison system not designed with women in mind? Join us for a compelling episode where we welcome Colleen Bell, chair of the Ostara Initiative's board of directors, as she reveals the stark realities and urgent needs of incarcerated mothers. Discover the transformative work Ostara is doing to challenge inhumane practices like shackling during labor and high rates of C-sections, setting new standards for maternal and child health within prisons. Colleen shares inspiring stories of change from Minnesota to Alabama's Tutwiler Prison, highlighting advancements in lactation support that not only benefit mothers and babies but also offer financial advantages for states willing to embrace such reforms.
In a thought-provoking discussion, we illuminate the vital role of doulas who provide crucial emotional and physical support to pregnant women in prison, empowering them amidst systemic failures. Distinguishing the essential contributions of doulas from midwives and OBGYNs, we confront misconceptions about the adequacy of prison healthcare and spotlight the unique challenges faced by women in a system primarily designed for men. We also tackle broader issues such as societal neglect of the root causes of women's incarceration, from trauma to survival crimes, asking tough questions about the humanity and effectiveness of our current penal system. Don't miss this episode as we advocate for transformative change in pursuit of kindness and justice. If you're interested in more information on women in the judicial system you may want to check out loads of charts, brief reports and a great search function at the Prison Policy Initiative.
#justice #women #incarceration
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, hello there and welcome.
You are listening to theKindness Matters podcast and I
am your host, Mike Rathbun.
What is this podcast all about?
It's about kindness.
It's a pushback againsteverything negative that we see
in the news and on social mediatoday, and it's a way to
(00:20):
highlight people, organizationsthat are simply striving to make
their little corner of theworld a little better place.
If you want to join in on theconversation, feel free, Go
ahead and follow us on all ofyour social media feeds.
We're on Facebook, Instagram,TikTok.
We're even on LinkedIn underMike Rathbun.
(00:42):
Check us out.
We're even on LinkedIn underMike Rathbun.
Check us out.
And in the meantime, so sitback, relax, enjoy and we'll get
into the Kindness Matterspodcast.
Hey, good morning, Well good,whatever time you're listening.
Folks, Thank you so much forjoining us on the podcast today.
(01:04):
I am so happy to have you.
I'm honored that you chose totake some time out of your life
to listen to the show.
Remember, if there's anythingin this podcast that you find
moving or inspiring ormotivating, please share it with
your friends and family andanybody else who you think would
(01:24):
benefit from it.
So today on our podcast, I havethe great honor of welcoming
Colleen Bell.
Colleen has a distinguishedcareer, marked by her service on
the board of directors of theOstara Initiative, where she
currently serves as a chair.
Her academic contributions aresignificant, having taught
(01:47):
students at Hamlin Universityfrom 1990 through 2020 in fields
such as conflict studies,women's and gender studies and
social justice studies.
Among the highlights of herteaching career are the Inside
Out courses she conducted in2017 and 2018 at the Shakopee
Correctional Facility.
(02:08):
These courses, which includedstudents both from the campus
and within the prison, stand outas some of the peak experiences
of her career.
In addition to her tenure atHamlin University, Colleen has
taught at the University ofTulsa, University of Illinois
and the College of StScholastica.
(02:29):
I knew I was going to mess thatone up.
Beyond her academic endeavors,she is also a dedicated gardener
and a writer, currentlyfocusing on unlearning academic
speak to embrace a moreauthentic expression of her
thoughts and ideas.
Thank you so much for takingthe time, Colleen.
Welcome to the show.
(02:49):
Thank you, Not bad for AI huh.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Not bad, yes.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Oh, that was the first time I have ever had AI
write an introduction for me.
It was okay.
I didn't speak so well, but theintro itself was okay, so let's
talk about.
I mean, we were going to talkmostly about Ostara and what
(03:18):
they do, but this is more of ageneral conversation about
basically, women in the judicialsystem, right?
Speaker 2 (03:26):
more of a general conversation about basically,
women in the judicial system.
Right yeah, I call it thecriminal legal system, because
justice is so often missing.
Got it, especially when youthink about individual women who
are impacted by the system.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Yeah, and we tend to group and we all do it.
I think to a certain extent yougo women criminal justice
system and you take theindividuality, you take the
human being out of that andthat's where we tend to get into
trouble.
I think, yeah, so talk aboutwhat does Ostara do and how did
(04:07):
it start?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Well, it did start in Minnesota, at Shakopee.
This was in about, I think,2010.
Erica Garrity, who continues tolead Ostara, started the
(04:31):
Minnesota Prison Doula Projectwith Raylene Baker Both doulas,
both recognizing some of theissues that affect babies
long-term when their moms areincarcerated during their birth.
So one thing that happens inwomen's facilities is,
especially when staffing isshort, women are scheduled to
(04:55):
give birth by C-section ratherthan having a natural birth.
That is bad, we know, in thelong term for women's health,
but also for babies.
So the rate of C-sections inthe nation actually care and
(05:31):
natural birth is actually a bigmoney saver for the state.
So C-sections cost a lot morethan natural births.
So that is a major problematichealth trend that's been turned
around in Minnesota.
That's not true everywhere.
So the prison doula programstarted.
(05:54):
The one that started inMinnesota also involved working
against shackling women duringlabor and delivery.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Wait.
So women were shackled duringlabor and delivery.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Pregnant women.
Imagine someone who's ninemonths pregnant, who's not gone
into labor yet, probably, butput in a van to be transported
to the local hospital Bellychains, with wrists chained to
the belly and ankle chains youknow it's.
(06:29):
The American MedicalAssociation has made it very
clear that this is such a riskto moms, to babies and liability
, frankly, for the Department ofCorrections.
So that has been changed inmany states.
There are still 10 states,though, that have no
prohibitions, no laws aboutshackling pregnant women.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
That's crazy.
Yeah, nothing like pointing outa cost savings to get somebody
to perk up and take notice,right.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Exactly notice, right , Exactly so now.
And you guys, you were notsatisfied with just Minnesota.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
You expanded this initiative, correct?
True, I think that was notnecessarily an initial goal.
But gosh, I'm not sure of theyear, but at one point Tutwiler
Prison, the state prison forwomen in Alabama, was called out
for custodial rape, in otherwords, women who are
(07:37):
incarcerated going in notpregnant but becoming
impregnated while they're there.
The Bureau of Prisons and theDepartment of Justice at the
federal level gave Alabamanotice.
If you don't clean this up, wewill come in and take over.
At that point, people inAlabama reached out to the folks
(07:59):
in Minnesota about maternal andchild health inside prisons.
So we now partner with theAlabama Prison Birth Project and
they actually.
Tutwiler is now one of thecutting edge prisons in the
(08:24):
nation when it comes tolactation.
So they now have a breastpumping room, milk so the moms
can pump milk after they'vegiven birth and they are
separated from their babies, butthe milk gets to the babies
outside the prison.
That was true in Alabama before.
(08:45):
It was true in Minnesota.
It is now true in Minnesota.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
That's a good thing.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Alabama surprised everyone by taking the lead
there.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Yeah, it's just kind of a human decency thing, isn't
it?
I mean to give women their ownspace, if you will, to pump milk
for their babies.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
And I think, if you think about the babies as the
people who will eventually be incharge of this society, it
makes no sense to punish them.
They have done nothing wrongand you know the whole.
(09:31):
I've heard people say when awoman is incarcerated, a whole
family is incarcerated, andthere are some local groups that
are working on the notion thatthe community is affected,
because very often what womenare doing in the community is
(09:52):
organizing, supporting, doinghome care, and so when you pull
someone out, it's not punishingjust her kids or the immediate
family.
There are many more people whoare affected.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
For sure.
Yeah, I mean, if you thinkabout all the ways that the
women impact communities, it'sjust, and I mean to be fair,
we're not saying that no womanshould ever go, not go to prison
.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
No, and I think most incarcerated women with whom
I've been in touch in class orotherwise would not say they
don't want to takeresponsibility.
The question is more one of theway.
(10:46):
For example, the way someprisons in Europe do this is
think about the sanctity of themother-child bond, not just from
a physical health perspective,but a mental health perspective,
a community perspective, alonger-term perspective, and so
babies are not separated fromtheir moms in many European
(11:10):
prisons.
That's maybe anotherconversation, but a group of
people from OSARA did travel tosome European prisons last year
and we'll be coming out with awhite paper on that what we
learned there in 2025.
So stay tuned.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Yeah, so they provide space for the child and the
mother to be imprisoned at thesame time.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Imprisoning kids doesn't sound right.
They live together, theirstreet closed.
They eat together, kids, theirstreet clothes.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
they eat together.
Kids leave and go to school andcome back.
Yeah, so, and yeah, you've gota kind of a double-edged sword
there.
I mean, if somebody's listeningto this and they think, oh wow,
the kid's in prison too, yeah,but they're with their mom.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Yes.
And the conditions are not likethey are in our prisons.
It's viewed as a temporary wayof repaying community for harm
inflicted and in this societylargely it's very difficult to
(12:26):
outlive your punishment.
Even if you're only in for ayear, you still will have
trouble getting a driver'slicense, getting a job, getting
housing.
You know it's just extremelydifficult to reenter society.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Sure, absolutely.
So now, do you just work withfederal prisons, or is it others
?
Speaker 2 (12:50):
We started with Shakopee, which is the state
prison for women, and most ofour other facilities are in the
states, but we also work withthree counties in Minnesota and
five federal prisons.
So overall we have 19 differentfacilities where we serve
(13:15):
clients across seven differentstates.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
And I guess Oregon just joined as well.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
That's right, Oregon, oh my goodness.
And in that facility womenactually wear their own clothes,
not uniforms.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Talk about human decency thing allowing a
convicted person to wear theirown clothing.
That's got to be huge for theirown mental health.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
The morale is yeah, it makes a huge difference.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
So, and I think you know, most people probably don't
even really think too muchabout women in prison and there
might be a lot of myths ormisunderstandings.
Can you maybe go through someof those?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Sure, I mean.
The first thing is if we thinkabout people who are
incarcerated in the largestincarcerating nation.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Yeah, we're right up there with incarcerating our own
citizens.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
And most US states also incarcerate more people
than the most incarceratingnations.
So the Prison Policy Initiativeis a nonprofit that puts
together some very interestingcharts.
If people want to compare theirown state's incarceration level
(14:57):
with various countrieselsewhere in the world, that is
the place to go in the world,that is the place to go.
But also just thinking aboutwhat people don't know or
understand or think about aboutwomen in prison only about 7% of
(15:19):
people who are locked up in theUnited States are women.
Prisons were designed for menby men.
The fact that only sevenpercent of people incarcerated
are female makes it easy forpeople to ignore.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
I was going to say, that makes it easier for them to
not think about it.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Justice impacted folks, but you know there's
another.
This is still kind of on thebroad general scheme of things.
About 2 million people in thiscountry are behind bars, 7% of
which are women, but that isonly about half.
(16:10):
Actually, it's less than halfof the people who are under
control of the correctionalsystem, because there are all
these things that people have todo when they leave prison.
So there's probation, there'sparole, there's community
corrections, and you can't screwup even when you're not behind
(16:32):
bars, because you will be sentback to prison in many cases,
and that is going back to prisonnot for committing a crime, but
for not following the massive,detailed rules that are expected
of people.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Missing a call from your PO or what have you
Community supervision?
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Yes, yes, so that's extremely important to remember
when we talk about thepopulation.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Yeah, so you have the number of people that are
incarcerated, but that doesn'tinclude the number of people who
are on parole or supervisedrelease.
I'm not exactly sure what thatis.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Yep, yep, and it also doesn't it?
Usually, I mean, when peopletalk about prison, it's either
federal or state or tribal, butit doesn't talk about jails, and
jails are at the county level,usually sentences of less than a
year.
So that's another chunk ofpeople and a lot of women land
(17:40):
in jails.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
As opposed to prison.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Yeah, they're even less well.
Jails are less well equipped totake care of women's health.
There are some pretty egregiousthings, as you know probably
from the news, that happen inour county jails.
Yeah, for sure I also wanted tojust say, because we're talking
(18:08):
about birth, the figures arevery hard to pin down in terms
of how many women are pregnantwhen they're inside.
There was a 2019 study that werely on.
It pegged it at about 4 to 5percent of incarcerated women at
(18:30):
any one time are pregnant.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
So women are 7% of the prison population and 4% to
5% of that number is pregnant.
Now, is that pregnant when theygo in, or do they differentiate
?
Speaker 2 (18:45):
They really the data collection about this, just to
reinforce the idea that womenare neglected or ignored.
Not really, it's a patchwork.
States do it differently.
The feds have rules, but stateshave their own rules, state by
state, and, of course, stateprisons.
(19:06):
And and, of course, stateprisons and legislation and
crime laws.
They vary across the states.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
So it's extremely difficult to do anything across
the board.
Yeah, it's hard to you have thefederal rules and then, but
every state you got 50, probably50 different sets of rules on
data collection.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Yeah, so, even though pregnant women are such a tiny
part of incarcerated women ifyou think just about the
organization that I work with inseven states, 19 facilities
just last year we delivered 17babies and served 835 unique
(19:59):
clients- that's incredible.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
That's incredible.
Now, do the doulas, do theinmates, have to leave the
prison to have the baby, or doyou facilitate birthing inside
the prison?
Speaker 2 (20:15):
No people go to hospitals, and I don't know this
for a fact, but my guess isthat that is a legal liability
kind of concern because thereare no physicians or nurses in
the facilities.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yeah, that makes sense, that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
But if it should happen and a doula were there,
you know, unless there were somekind of physical complication,
physical complication the doulawould be there to support the
mom.
It's really important, I think,to understand what is the
(20:56):
difference between a doula and,for example, a midwife or an
OBGYN.
Doulas provide physical,emotional and informational
support before, during and afterbirth.
So we're educating the momsabout what's coming, we support
them through the birthingprocess and then we stay
(21:19):
connected to them afterwards.
We do not provide medical carecare.
So what physical support lookslike is maybe for a mom who's
leaving the facility aftergiving birth and say her baby is
a few months old, living with arelative, we might have to help
(21:40):
her find housing if she'shaving a rough time.
That's an example of physicalsupport.
That's an example of physicalsupport.
The emotional support is very,very powerful.
Women often first beingincarcerated and then being in
the midst of labor, don'tnecessarily realize their power
(22:06):
to say no, don't give me anydrugs, for example.
What if they're recovering fromsome sort of chemical
dependence?
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
You know the physician wants to administer
some kind of painkiller and themom can say no and a doula can
encourage the mom to speak herdesire about that.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Yeah, and just because of the way the prison
system is built and the controlwe assume is all within the
prison system and I can see veryeasily how a woman would say I
can't say I can't have that.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, people are silenced, people are,
they're not spoken to withtheir first name, so it's a very
dehumanizing process.
And then to dehumanize thatsacred moment, I would say, of
(22:58):
giving birth, it's incredible.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
So I think a lot of people have assumptions about
women in prison.
I think, for example, one ofthem might be that women and men
who are involved in the systemfollow the same path.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Not true, definitely not true.
Yeah, women, about half, Ithink it is.
Is that true?
About half of women are therefor drug or property crimes, is
that?
Speaker 1 (23:40):
like the Carrie Underwood keying the truck kind
of crime yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Um, I don't know where that fits, actually,
because I'm not.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
When you said property crime, I just went
there immediately.
I don't know why.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
It's more often stealing food, that sort of
thing.
I think of them as survivalcrimes.
So all of the chemicaldependence issues, so drug
possession, have to do usuallywith some kind of early trauma,
(24:14):
childhood trauma and thenself-medicating because our
system of mental health care isso impoverished.
Yeah, and so you know, when Ifirst went into a state prison,
(24:35):
I had no idea what to expect andI saw old women in wheelchairs.
I saw people who were unable tospeak English and there were no
translators for their language.
And you know what that givesrise to is women inside are not
(24:57):
always, but often, compassionatetoward one another.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
So I don't know why I was surprised by that, but
that's encouraging.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
I mean the idea of a criminal.
You know, we think of all thenegativity but we don't think of
why.
And the system does not carewhy a person is using drugs or
stealing food.
Yeah, killing a partner amurder, it's totally.
(25:32):
It happens often that moms whodo that are protecting kids or
protecting themselves.
So if there's abuse in thesituation, you know we're just
very far behind places likeAustralia in terms of how we
(25:53):
handle this sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Yeah, I saw a stat the other day.
In 2023, in the state ofMinnesota, there were 40 murders
related to domestic violence.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah, and that was a record violence.
Yeah, and that was a record.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Yeah, yeah, okay how about?
Another assumption Women getwhat they need in prison.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Oh gosh.
Well, go back to the statementI made earlier about prisons
being built by and for men.
So that's the first problem.
I can't even.
I used to teach courses aboutthis and I would ask the
students is a feminist prisonpossible?
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Could you have a prison?
Dedicated to the liberation ofwomen and what would that look
like that's a great thoughtexperiment.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Yes, very challenging , but let's just say that, in
spite of the legal requirementsthat the state is responsible
for those who are in its custody, health care in prisons
generally is inadequate.
Health care in prisonsgenerally is inadequate and
women's health care needs aredifferent than men's.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Just take the example of the food that a pregnant
woman gets inside.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
What do they get?
Well, the usual fare, which is,I would say, unappetizing at
best from what I have seen andtasted.
But a pregnant woman might getan extra piece of fruit a day,
(27:49):
so she's not getting thecalories she needs to grow that
baby.
Nor is she getting nutritionalbalance.
If her family can buy her themultivitamins that pregnant
women should take, she can havethose.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
That's a big if, though, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Absolutely, absolutely yes, so I would say
no.
In fact, I think that prisonsare dangerous places for women.
Thinking about custodial rape,thinking about women not getting
the mental health care thatthey need, not getting drug
(28:22):
treatment, that sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Which kind of leads us to the next misunderstanding
or assumption which?
Speaker 2 (28:33):
is that women are safe when they're incarcerated,
Right?
No, and I think yes.
Custodial rape is a part ofthat.
Another part of it is the waythat segregation is used, or
solitary confinement that can beused used for any kind of
punishment.
So what if a woman is unable togive a urine sample when she is
(28:57):
asked?
If she cannot do that, if shecannot produce that, she might
be sent to SEG.
So it's all about compliance.
But also women who have mentalhealth issues if they act out or
(29:19):
have some sort of an episodewhere they lose control, they
might be sent to segregation.
And what could be worse thanisolating someone who's in a
mental health crisis?
Speaker 1 (29:36):
For sure, yeah, okay, last one.
We're all safer withtough-on-crime laws.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Oh boy, yeah.
Well, the way I think aboutthis I have talked about it with
my students is to say,reminding ourselves that 90 to
95% of the people who are lockedup are coming back to the
community.
How do we want to treat them,interact with them while they're
(30:21):
incarcerated?
And there is lots of evidencethat prisons do not make people
less likely to commit crime.
Only for people who do sexual,predator behavior and the most
serious, you know, life-takingkinds of crimes.
They are the least likelypeople to go back to prison.
(30:43):
But it's almost as if prison isa schooling for future crime.
So people inside are not safer,people outside are not safer.
And, mike, there's one otherthing I think people should know
, should understand, aboutsafety that last question we
(31:05):
were talking about about womenbeing safer inside.
We were talking about womenbeing safer inside.
There's been a study actuallydone at Shakopee and a paper
written about body cavitysearches.
So many things are attributedto the need for security, but
(31:34):
women are subject to body cavitysearches.
If there's a female correctionsofficer available, she might be
the person to perform it, butmost corrections officers are
men.
So imagine a woman who has justgiven birth.
She comes back to the prisonwithout her baby and because
(31:54):
she's been outside, she musthave a body cavity search.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
That's so wrong.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
I think the right term for it would be
state-sponsored sexual assault.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
You're not wrong.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
So there's a lot of room for humanity, for our
becoming more humane.
And you know this is a personalopinion.
I have never found punishmentto be that effective in changing
people's behavior.
(32:34):
I'm much more of a person whooffers encouragement and
recognition, acknowledgement ofpeople's pain.
It just doesn't make sense tome.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Yeah, I agree, it just doesn't make sense to me.
Yeah, I agree.
I mean, yes, there aresituations where I think some
people belong in prison, as youwere saying.
But I just it's funny.
I was watching the news theother night and they were
talking to and this is acompletely different subject,
(33:11):
but it kind of ties in a youngPalestinian man in Gaza and both
of his parents and two of hissiblings were killed and his
home was destroyed.
He lost his job, he has nowhereelse to go and for him Hamas
(33:35):
looks like a really good optionbecause they'll pay him money.
And I realize it's an extremeexample, but it's kind of the
same thing, is it not?
Where you know, once thesepeople get out of prison,
oftentimes and I don't male orfemale they have trouble finding
jobs, they have trouble findingplaces to live, and it's so
(33:59):
much easier just to go back towhere they started from.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I do think that idea aboutoptions being limited, which is
in your story about the youngman from Gaza that is not what
we think about when we determinepunishment, either length or
location.
We do not think about whypeople commit crimes, so we do
(34:27):
not go to the root of the issue.
Commit crimes, so we do not goto the root of the issue.
We are simply putting aband-aid temporarily on an
oozing, gaping wound insomeone's life, and we do it to
masses of people.
I just don't understand howpeople could argue that that
(34:48):
makes our neighborhoods safer,don't?
Speaker 1 (34:52):
understand how people could argue that that makes our
neighborhoods safer.
Yeah, for sure.
Okay, let's wrap up.
Let's talk about resources forpeople that want to learn more
about Ostara and the PrisonPolicy Initiative.
Where can they go to look for?
Speaker 2 (35:03):
that website.
It's ostarainitiativeorg.
That website is filled withresources, so there are films,
(35:25):
there are members of our staffgiving short talks about various
aspects of what happens forwomen who are incarcerated.
There's also a victim impactstatement given by one of the
board members, and also lots ofways to participate in our work
(35:46):
remotely, that is, by donatingcertain items that moms and
their newborns need.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
So not just money, but it's actual.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Yep, when moms are leaving, when their sentence is,
minnesota has the Healthy StartAct which says if moms are
leaving prison within a yearthey go to a community setting
that's secure with their baby,and so we try to support that.
And so rocking chairs and youknow, cribs and all kinds of
(36:27):
anyway.
You can look at the website forthat.
The Prison Policy Initiativewill give ideas, statistical
information about incarcerationin the nation.
They have a wonderful searchengine on the Prison Policy
Initiative website so you canlook up things about women.
You can look up things abouttrans people who are
(36:49):
incarcerated, which is probablyanother show.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
For sure.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
Lots and lots of ways to learn more, and we also love
to come and give talks.
You can have a doula come andgive a talk to a classroom, a
health class, for example, or asocial studies class about
women's incarceration.
We do lots of public speakingand we love doing it.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
That's fantastic.
Oh, that's Colleen.
Thank you so much.
That's going to show up on my.
I'll have to, okay, just likedo that kind of clapping.
Thank you so much for takingtime out of your day.
I know you're busy and Iappreciate the time that you
spent with us here.
This is, there's a lot ofinformation here to think about
(37:42):
when we're talking about beingkinder to other human beings,
and I just appreciate everythingyou guys do.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Thank you, mike.
I want to add to your the titleof your podcast.
It says kindness matters and Iwould say kindness and humanity
matter.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
I think they're tied hand in hand, but I won't
discount your comment.
I'll take that under advisement.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
You're very, very welcome and you have a good week
.
I will you too.
Bye now.
I want to thank you for takingthis time to listen to this
episode with my guest, colleenBell from the Ostera Initiative.
I hope you're able to takesomething positive from the time
you spent here today.
Maybe you'll be inspired, maybeyou'll be motivated, maybe
(38:35):
you'll be moved.
If you experienced any of thosepositive feelings, please
consider sharing this podcastwith your friends and family.
I'm always striving to offer abetter podcast, so give me some
feedback.
Let me know how you think I'mdoing.
Email me, leave a message on mysocials.
It would mean the world.
Also.
(38:55):
Feel free to follow us on oursocials like Facebook, instagram
, linkedin and TikTok.
This podcast is part of theMayday Media Network.
If you have an idea for apodcast and need some production
assistance, or have a podcastand are looking for a supportive
network to join, check outmaydaymedianetworkcom and check
(39:17):
out the many different shows,like Afrocentric Spoil, my Movie
Generation Mixtape In a PickleRadio Show, wake Up and Dream
with D Anthony Palin, stax O'Paxand the Time Pals.
We will be back again next weekwith a brand new episode and we
would be honored if you wouldjoin us.
You've been listening to theKindness Matters Podcast.
(39:40):
I'm your host, mike Rathbun.
Have a fantastic week.
Well, hello there and welcome.
You are listening to theKindness Matters podcast and I
am your host, Mike Rathbun.
What is this podcast all about?
It's about kindness.
It's a pushback againsteverything negative that we see
in the news and on social mediatoday, and it's a way to
(00:20):
highlight people, organizationsthat are simply striving to make
their little corner of theworld a little better place.
If you want to join in on theconversation, feel free, Go
ahead and follow us on all ofyour social media feeds.
We're on Facebook, Instagram,TikTok.
We're even on LinkedIn underMike Rathbun.
(00:42):
Check us out.
We're even on LinkedIn underMike Rathbun.
Check us out.
And in the meantime, so sitback, relax, enjoy and we'll get
into the Kindness Matterspodcast.
Hey, good morning, Well good,whatever time you're listening.
Folks, Thank you so much forjoining us on the podcast today.
(01:04):
I am so happy to have you.
I'm honored that you chose totake some time out of your life
to listen to the show.
Remember, if there's anythingin this podcast that you find
moving or inspiring ormotivating, please share it with
your friends and family andanybody else who you think would
(01:24):
benefit from it.
So today on our podcast, I havethe great honor of welcoming
Colleen Bell.
Colleen has a distinguishedcareer, marked by her service on
the board of directors of theOstara Initiative, where she
currently serves as a chair.
Her academic contributions aresignificant, having taught
(01:47):
students at Hamlin Universityfrom 1990 through 2020 in fields
such as conflict studies,women's and gender studies and
social justice studies.
Among the highlights of herteaching career are the Inside
Out courses she conducted in2017 and 2018 at the Shakopee
Correctional Facility.
(02:08):
These courses, which includedstudents both from the campus
and within the prison, stand outas some of the peak experiences
of her career.
In addition to her tenure atHamlin University, Colleen has
taught at the University ofTulsa, University of Illinois
and the College of StScholastica.
(02:29):
I knew I was going to mess thatone up.
Beyond her academic endeavors,she is also a dedicated gardener
and a writer, currentlyfocusing on unlearning academic
speak to embrace a moreauthentic expression of her
thoughts and ideas.
Thank you so much for takingthe time, Colleen.
Welcome to the show.
(02:49):
Thank you, Not bad for AI huh.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Not bad, yes.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Oh, that was the first time I have ever had AI
write an introduction for me.
It was okay.
I didn't speak so well, but theintro itself was okay, so let's
talk about.
I mean, we were going to talkmostly about Ostara and what
(03:18):
they do, but this is more of ageneral conversation about
basically, women in the judicialsystem, right?
Speaker 2 (03:26):
more of a general conversation about basically,
women in the judicial system.
Right yeah, I call it thecriminal legal system, because
justice is so often missing.
Got it, especially when youthink about individual women who
are impacted by the system.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Yeah, and we tend to group and we all do it.
I think to a certain extent yougo women criminal justice
system and you take theindividuality, you take the
human being out of that andthat's where we tend to get into
trouble.
I think, yeah, so talk aboutwhat does Ostara do and how did
(04:07):
it start?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Well, it did start in Minnesota, at Shakopee.
This was in about, I think,2010.
Erica Garrity, who continues tolead Ostara, started the
(04:31):
Minnesota Prison Doula Projectwith Raylene Baker Both doulas,
both recognizing some of theissues that affect babies
long-term when their moms areincarcerated during their birth.
So one thing that happens inwomen's facilities is,
especially when staffing isshort, women are scheduled to
(04:55):
give birth by C-section ratherthan having a natural birth.
That is bad, we know, in thelong term for women's health,
but also for babies.
So the rate of C-sections inthe nation actually care and
(05:31):
natural birth is actually a bigmoney saver for the state.
So C-sections cost a lot morethan natural births.
So that is a major problematichealth trend that's been turned
around in Minnesota.
That's not true everywhere.
So the prison doula programstarted.
(05:54):
The one that started inMinnesota also involved working
against shackling women duringlabor and delivery.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Wait.
So women were shackled duringlabor and delivery.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Pregnant women.
Imagine someone who's ninemonths pregnant, who's not gone
into labor yet, probably, butput in a van to be transported
to the local hospital Bellychains, with wrists chained to
the belly and ankle chains youknow it's.
(06:29):
The American MedicalAssociation has made it very
clear that this is such a riskto moms, to babies and liability
, frankly, for the Department ofCorrections.
So that has been changed inmany states.
There are still 10 states,though, that have no
prohibitions, no laws aboutshackling pregnant women.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
That's crazy.
Yeah, nothing like pointing outa cost savings to get somebody
to perk up and take notice,right.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Exactly notice, right , Exactly so now.
And you guys, you were notsatisfied with just Minnesota.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
You expanded this initiative, correct?
True, I think that was notnecessarily an initial goal.
But gosh, I'm not sure of theyear, but at one point Tutwiler
Prison, the state prison forwomen in Alabama, was called out
for custodial rape, in otherwords, women who are
(07:37):
incarcerated going in notpregnant but becoming
impregnated while they're there.
The Bureau of Prisons and theDepartment of Justice at the
federal level gave Alabamanotice.
If you don't clean this up, wewill come in and take over.
At that point, people inAlabama reached out to the folks
(07:59):
in Minnesota about maternal andchild health inside prisons.
So we now partner with theAlabama Prison Birth Project and
they actually.
Tutwiler is now one of thecutting edge prisons in the
(08:24):
nation when it comes tolactation.
So they now have a breastpumping room, milk so the moms
can pump milk after they'vegiven birth and they are
separated from their babies, butthe milk gets to the babies
outside the prison.
That was true in Alabama before.
(08:45):
It was true in Minnesota.
It is now true in Minnesota.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
That's a good thing.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Alabama surprised everyone by taking the lead
there.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Yeah, it's just kind of a human decency thing, isn't
it?
I mean to give women their ownspace, if you will, to pump milk
for their babies.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
And I think, if you think about the babies as the
people who will eventually be incharge of this society, it
makes no sense to punish them.
They have done nothing wrongand you know the whole.
(09:31):
I've heard people say when awoman is incarcerated, a whole
family is incarcerated, andthere are some local groups that
are working on the notion thatthe community is affected,
because very often what womenare doing in the community is
(09:52):
organizing, supporting, doinghome care, and so when you pull
someone out, it's not punishingjust her kids or the immediate
family.
There are many more people whoare affected.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
For sure.
Yeah, I mean, if you thinkabout all the ways that the
women impact communities, it'sjust, and I mean to be fair,
we're not saying that no womanshould ever go, not go to prison
.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
No, and I think most incarcerated women with whom
I've been in touch in class orotherwise would not say they
don't want to takeresponsibility.
The question is more one of theway.
(10:46):
For example, the way someprisons in Europe do this is
think about the sanctity of themother-child bond, not just from
a physical health perspective,but a mental health perspective,
a community perspective, alonger-term perspective, and so
babies are not separated fromtheir moms in many European
(11:10):
prisons.
That's maybe anotherconversation, but a group of
people from OSARA did travel tosome European prisons last year
and we'll be coming out with awhite paper on that what we
learned there in 2025.
So stay tuned.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Yeah, so they provide space for the child and the
mother to be imprisoned at thesame time.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Imprisoning kids doesn't sound right.
They live together, theirstreet closed.
They eat together, kids, theirstreet clothes.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
they eat together.
Kids leave and go to school andcome back.
Yeah, so, and yeah, you've gota kind of a double-edged sword
there.
I mean, if somebody's listeningto this and they think, oh wow,
the kid's in prison too, yeah,but they're with their mom.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Yes.
And the conditions are not likethey are in our prisons.
It's viewed as a temporary wayof repaying community for harm
inflicted and in this societylargely it's very difficult to
(12:26):
outlive your punishment.
Even if you're only in for ayear, you still will have
trouble getting a driver'slicense, getting a job, getting
housing.
You know it's just extremelydifficult to reenter society.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Sure, absolutely.
So now, do you just work withfederal prisons, or is it others
?
Speaker 2 (12:50):
We started with Shakopee, which is the state
prison for women, and most ofour other facilities are in the
states, but we also work withthree counties in Minnesota and
five federal prisons.
So overall we have 19 differentfacilities where we serve
(13:15):
clients across seven differentstates.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
And I guess Oregon just joined as well.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
That's right, Oregon, oh my goodness.
And in that facility womenactually wear their own clothes,
not uniforms.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Talk about human decency thing allowing a
convicted person to wear theirown clothing.
That's got to be huge for theirown mental health.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
The morale is yeah, it makes a huge difference.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
So, and I think you know, most people probably don't
even really think too muchabout women in prison and there
might be a lot of myths ormisunderstandings.
Can you maybe go through someof those?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Sure, I mean.
The first thing is if we thinkabout people who are
incarcerated in the largestincarcerating nation.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Yeah, we're right up there with incarcerating our own
citizens.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
And most US states also incarcerate more people
than the most incarceratingnations.
So the Prison Policy Initiativeis a nonprofit that puts
together some very interestingcharts.
If people want to compare theirown state's incarceration level
(14:57):
with various countrieselsewhere in the world, that is
the place to go in the world,that is the place to go.
But also just thinking aboutwhat people don't know or
understand or think about aboutwomen in prison only about 7% of
(15:19):
people who are locked up in theUnited States are women.
Prisons were designed for menby men.
The fact that only sevenpercent of people incarcerated
are female makes it easy forpeople to ignore.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
I was going to say, that makes it easier for them to
not think about it.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Justice impacted folks, but you know there's
another.
This is still kind of on thebroad general scheme of things.
About 2 million people in thiscountry are behind bars, 7% of
which are women, but that isonly about half.
(16:10):
Actually, it's less than halfof the people who are under
control of the correctionalsystem, because there are all
these things that people have todo when they leave prison.
So there's probation, there'sparole, there's community
corrections, and you can't screwup even when you're not behind
(16:32):
bars, because you will be sentback to prison in many cases,
and that is going back to prisonnot for committing a crime, but
for not following the massive,detailed rules that are expected
of people.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Missing a call from your PO or what have you
Community supervision?
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Yes, yes, so that's extremely important to remember
when we talk about thepopulation.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Yeah, so you have the number of people that are
incarcerated, but that doesn'tinclude the number of people who
are on parole or supervisedrelease.
I'm not exactly sure what thatis.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Yep, yep, and it also doesn't it?
Usually, I mean, when peopletalk about prison, it's either
federal or state or tribal, butit doesn't talk about jails, and
jails are at the county level,usually sentences of less than a
year.
So that's another chunk ofpeople and a lot of women land
(17:40):
in jails.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
As opposed to prison.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Yeah, they're even less well.
Jails are less well equipped totake care of women's health.
There are some pretty egregiousthings, as you know probably
from the news, that happen inour county jails.
Yeah, for sure I also wanted tojust say, because we're talking
(18:08):
about birth, the figures arevery hard to pin down in terms
of how many women are pregnantwhen they're inside.
There was a 2019 study that werely on.
It pegged it at about 4 to 5percent of incarcerated women at
(18:30):
any one time are pregnant.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
So women are 7% of the prison population and 4% to
5% of that number is pregnant.
Now, is that pregnant when theygo in, or do they differentiate
?
Speaker 2 (18:45):
They really the data collection about this, just to
reinforce the idea that womenare neglected or ignored.
Not really, it's a patchwork.
States do it differently.
The feds have rules, but stateshave their own rules, state by
state, and, of course, stateprisons.
(19:06):
And and, of course, stateprisons and legislation and
crime laws.
They vary across the states.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
So it's extremely difficult to do anything across
the board.
Yeah, it's hard to you have thefederal rules and then, but
every state you got 50, probably50 different sets of rules on
data collection.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Yeah, so, even though pregnant women are such a tiny
part of incarcerated women ifyou think just about the
organization that I work with inseven states, 19 facilities
just last year we delivered 17babies and served 835 unique
(19:59):
clients- that's incredible.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
That's incredible.
Now, do the doulas, do theinmates, have to leave the
prison to have the baby, or doyou facilitate birthing inside
the prison?
Speaker 2 (20:15):
No people go to hospitals, and I don't know this
for a fact, but my guess isthat that is a legal liability
kind of concern because thereare no physicians or nurses in
the facilities.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
Yeah, that makes sense, that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
But if it should happen and a doula were there,
you know, unless there were somekind of physical complication,
physical complication the doulawould be there to support the
mom.
It's really important, I think,to understand what is the
(20:56):
difference between a doula and,for example, a midwife or an
OBGYN.
Doulas provide physical,emotional and informational
support before, during and afterbirth.
So we're educating the momsabout what's coming, we support
them through the birthingprocess and then we stay
(21:19):
connected to them afterwards.
We do not provide medical carecare.
So what physical support lookslike is maybe for a mom who's
leaving the facility aftergiving birth and say her baby is
a few months old, living with arelative, we might have to help
(21:40):
her find housing if she'shaving a rough time.
That's an example of physicalsupport.
That's an example of physicalsupport.
The emotional support is very,very powerful.
Women often first beingincarcerated and then being in
the midst of labor, don'tnecessarily realize their power
(22:06):
to say no, don't give me anydrugs, for example.
What if they're recovering fromsome sort of chemical
dependence?
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
You know the physician wants to administer
some kind of painkiller and themom can say no and a doula can
encourage the mom to speak herdesire about that.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Yeah, and just because of the way the prison
system is built and the controlwe assume is all within the
prison system and I can see veryeasily how a woman would say I
can't say I can't have that.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, people are silenced, people are,
they're not spoken to withtheir first name, so it's a very
dehumanizing process.
And then to dehumanize thatsacred moment, I would say, of
(22:58):
giving birth, it's incredible.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
So I think a lot of people have assumptions about
women in prison.
I think, for example, one ofthem might be that women and men
who are involved in the systemfollow the same path.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Not true, definitely not true.
Yeah, women, about half, Ithink it is.
Is that true?
About half of women are therefor drug or property crimes, is
that?
Speaker 1 (23:40):
like the Carrie Underwood keying the truck kind
of crime yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Um, I don't know where that fits, actually,
because I'm not.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
When you said property crime, I just went
there immediately.
I don't know why.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
It's more often stealing food, that sort of
thing.
I think of them as survivalcrimes.
So all of the chemicaldependence issues, so drug
possession, have to do usuallywith some kind of early trauma,
(24:14):
childhood trauma and thenself-medicating because our
system of mental health care isso impoverished.
Yeah, and so you know, when Ifirst went into a state prison,
(24:35):
I had no idea what to expect andI saw old women in wheelchairs.
I saw people who were unable tospeak English and there were no
translators for their language.
And you know what that givesrise to is women inside are not
(24:57):
always, but often, compassionatetoward one another.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
So I don't know why I was surprised by that, but
that's encouraging.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
I mean the idea of a criminal.
You know, we think of all thenegativity but we don't think of
why.
And the system does not carewhy a person is using drugs or
stealing food.
Yeah, killing a partner amurder, it's totally.
(25:32):
It happens often that moms whodo that are protecting kids or
protecting themselves.
So if there's abuse in thesituation, you know we're just
very far behind places likeAustralia in terms of how we
(25:53):
handle this sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Yeah, I saw a stat the other day.
In 2023, in the state ofMinnesota, there were 40 murders
related to domestic violence.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah, and that was a record violence.
Yeah, and that was a record.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Yeah, yeah, okay how about?
Another assumption Women getwhat they need in prison.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Oh gosh.
Well, go back to the statementI made earlier about prisons
being built by and for men.
So that's the first problem.
I can't even.
I used to teach courses aboutthis and I would ask the
students is a feminist prisonpossible?
Speaker 1 (26:50):
Could you have a prison?
Dedicated to the liberation ofwomen and what would that look
like that's a great thoughtexperiment.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Yes, very challenging , but let's just say that, in
spite of the legal requirementsthat the state is responsible
for those who are in its custody, health care in prisons
generally is inadequate.
Health care in prisonsgenerally is inadequate and
women's health care needs aredifferent than men's.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Just take the example of the food that a pregnant
woman gets inside.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
What do they get?
Well, the usual fare, which is,I would say, unappetizing at
best from what I have seen andtasted.
But a pregnant woman might getan extra piece of fruit a day,
(27:49):
so she's not getting thecalories she needs to grow that
baby.
Nor is she getting nutritionalbalance.
If her family can buy her themultivitamins that pregnant
women should take, she can havethose.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
That's a big if, though, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Absolutely, absolutely yes, so I would say
no.
In fact, I think that prisonsare dangerous places for women.
Thinking about custodial rape,thinking about women not getting
the mental health care thatthey need, not getting drug
(28:22):
treatment, that sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Which kind of leads us to the next misunderstanding
or assumption which?
Speaker 2 (28:33):
is that women are safe when they're incarcerated,
Right?
No, and I think yes.
Custodial rape is a part ofthat.
Another part of it is the waythat segregation is used, or
solitary confinement that can beused used for any kind of
punishment.
So what if a woman is unable togive a urine sample when she is
(28:57):
asked?
If she cannot do that, if shecannot produce that, she might
be sent to SEG.
So it's all about compliance.
But also women who have mentalhealth issues if they act out or
(29:19):
have some sort of an episodewhere they lose control, they
might be sent to segregation.
And what could be worse thanisolating someone who's in a
mental health crisis?
Speaker 1 (29:36):
For sure, yeah, okay, last one.
We're all safer withtough-on-crime laws.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Oh boy, yeah.
Well, the way I think aboutthis I have talked about it with
my students is to say,reminding ourselves that 90 to
95% of the people who are lockedup are coming back to the
community.
How do we want to treat them,interact with them while they're
(30:21):
incarcerated?
And there is lots of evidencethat prisons do not make people
less likely to commit crime.
Only for people who do sexual,predator behavior and the most
serious, you know, life-takingkinds of crimes.
They are the least likelypeople to go back to prison.
(30:43):
But it's almost as if prison isa schooling for future crime.
So people inside are not safer,people outside are not safer.
And, mike, there's one otherthing I think people should know
, should understand, aboutsafety that last question we
(31:05):
were talking about about womenbeing safer inside.
We were talking about womenbeing safer inside.
There's been a study actuallydone at Shakopee and a paper
written about body cavitysearches.
So many things are attributedto the need for security, but
(31:34):
women are subject to body cavitysearches.
If there's a female correctionsofficer available, she might be
the person to perform it, butmost corrections officers are
men.
So imagine a woman who has justgiven birth.
She comes back to the prisonwithout her baby and because
(31:54):
she's been outside, she musthave a body cavity search.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
That's so wrong.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
I think the right term for it would be
state-sponsored sexual assault.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
You're not wrong.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
So there's a lot of room for humanity, for our
becoming more humane.
And you know this is a personalopinion.
I have never found punishmentto be that effective in changing
people's behavior.
(32:34):
I'm much more of a person whooffers encouragement and
recognition, acknowledgement ofpeople's pain.
It just doesn't make sense tome.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Yeah, I agree, it just doesn't make sense to me.
Yeah, I agree.
I mean, yes, there aresituations where I think some
people belong in prison, as youwere saying.
But I just it's funny.
I was watching the news theother night and they were
talking to and this is acompletely different subject,
(33:11):
but it kind of ties in a youngPalestinian man in Gaza and both
of his parents and two of hissiblings were killed and his
home was destroyed.
He lost his job, he has nowhereelse to go and for him Hamas
(33:35):
looks like a really good optionbecause they'll pay him money.
And I realize it's an extremeexample, but it's kind of the
same thing, is it not?
Where you know, once thesepeople get out of prison,
oftentimes and I don't male orfemale they have trouble finding
jobs, they have trouble findingplaces to live, and it's so
(33:59):
much easier just to go back towhere they started from.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I do think that idea aboutoptions being limited, which is
in your story about the youngman from Gaza that is not what
we think about when we determinepunishment, either length or
location.
We do not think about whypeople commit crimes, so we do
(34:27):
not go to the root of the issue.
Commit crimes, so we do not goto the root of the issue.
We are simply putting aband-aid temporarily on an
oozing, gaping wound insomeone's life, and we do it to
masses of people.
I just don't understand howpeople could argue that that
(34:48):
makes our neighborhoods safer,don't?
Speaker 1 (34:52):
understand how people could argue that that makes our
neighborhoods safer.
Yeah, for sure.
Okay, let's wrap up.
Let's talk about resources forpeople that want to learn more
about Ostara and the PrisonPolicy Initiative.
Where can they go to look for?
Speaker 2 (35:03):
that website.
It's ostarainitiativeorg.
That website is filled withresources, so there are films,
(35:25):
there are members of our staffgiving short talks about various
aspects of what happens forwomen who are incarcerated.
There's also a victim impactstatement given by one of the
board members, and also lots ofways to participate in our work
(35:46):
remotely, that is, by donatingcertain items that moms and
their newborns need.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
So not just money, but it's actual.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Yep, when moms are leaving, when their sentence is,
minnesota has the Healthy StartAct which says if moms are
leaving prison within a yearthey go to a community setting
that's secure with their baby,and so we try to support that.
And so rocking chairs and youknow, cribs and all kinds of
(36:27):
anyway.
You can look at the website forthat.
The Prison Policy Initiativewill give ideas, statistical
information about incarcerationin the nation.
They have a wonderful searchengine on the Prison Policy
Initiative website so you canlook up things about women.
You can look up things abouttrans people who are
(36:49):
incarcerated, which is probablyanother show.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
For sure.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
Lots and lots of ways to learn more, and we also love
to come and give talks.
You can have a doula come andgive a talk to a classroom, a
health class, for example, or asocial studies class about
women's incarceration.
We do lots of public speakingand we love doing it.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
That's fantastic.
Oh, that's Colleen.
Thank you so much.
That's going to show up on my.
I'll have to, okay, just likedo that kind of clapping.
Thank you so much for takingtime out of your day.
I know you're busy and Iappreciate the time that you
spent with us here.
This is, there's a lot ofinformation here to think about
(37:42):
when we're talking about beingkinder to other human beings,
and I just appreciate everythingyou guys do.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Thank you, mike.
I want to add to your the titleof your podcast.
It says kindness matters and Iwould say kindness and humanity
matter.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
I think they're tied hand in hand, but I won't
discount your comment.
I'll take that under advisement.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
You're very, very welcome and you have a good week
.
I will you too.
Bye now.
I want to thank you for takingthis time to listen to this
episode with my guest, colleenBell from the Ostera Initiative.
I hope you're able to takesomething positive from the time
you spent here today.
Maybe you'll be inspired, maybeyou'll be motivated, maybe
(38:35):
you'll be moved.
If you experienced any of thosepositive feelings, please
consider sharing this podcastwith your friends and family.
I'm always striving to offer abetter podcast, so give me some
feedback.
Let me know how you think I'mdoing.
Email me, leave a message on mysocials.
It would mean the world.
Also.
(38:55):
Feel free to follow us on oursocials like Facebook, instagram
, linkedin and TikTok.
This podcast is part of theMayday Media Network.
If you have an idea for apodcast and need some production
assistance, or have a podcastand are looking for a supportive
network to join, check outmaydaymedianetworkcom and check
(39:17):
out the many different shows,like Afrocentric Spoil, my Movie
Generation Mixtape In a PickleRadio Show, wake Up and Dream
with D Anthony Palin, stax O'Paxand the Time Pals.
We will be back again next weekwith a brand new episode and we
would be honored if you wouldjoin us.
You've been listening to theKindness Matters Podcast.
(39:40):
I'm your host, mike Rathbun.
Have a fantastic week.
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