Philippe Lichtenstein: Innovating Israeli Wines with Mediterranean Flair at Hayotzer Winery

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Join us as we welcome the esteemed Philippe Lichtenstein from Hayotzer Winery in Jerusalem, an innovator reshaping the Israeli wine scene. Hear firsthand how Philippe's journey through Burgundy and Corsica has influenced his approach to winemaking in Israel's Mediterranean terroir. Discover the challenges and triumphs he encountered as he transitioned from a focus on mass production to crafting high-quality wines, emphasizing the art of controlling irrigation and collaborating closely with local farmers.

Explore the fascinating nuances of Israel's viticulture as Philippe enlightens us on why Mediterranean grape varietals such as Grenache, Syrah, and Mourvèdre thrive under the region's unique climate. With an insightful comparison to practices from Burgundy and California, we examine how these varietals can produce elegant wines that reflect evolving consumer preferences for lighter options, especially suited for hot summers. Philippe provides an intricate look at vineyard management, sharing his expertise in balancing alcohol content, harvest timing, and the science behind vineyard decisions that lead to exceptional wine quality.

We round off our conversation with a reflection on the delicate balance between tradition and modern innovation in winemaking. Philippe shares his perspective on how time-honored methods adapt to contemporary market demands, touching on topics such as oak barrel aging and climate impact on wine maturation. As we conclude this enriching dialogue, I express a heartfelt hope for safety and peace, inviting listeners to share in this moment of gratitude and subscribe for more engaging discussions in "The Kosher Terroir.

For more information:

Philippe Lichtenstein
Winemaker Hayotzer Winery 

C/O Arza Winery
PO Box 18218
Jerusalem 91181
Israel
Harubit 15, Israel Park 
Shior Adumim
Jerusalem Israel

Phone: [phone] [phone]
Email: [e-mail]

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Episode Transcript

S. Simon Jacob (00:09):
Welcome to The Kosher Terroir.
I'm Simon Jacob, your host forthis episode from Jerusalem.
Before we get started, I askthat, wherever you are, please
take a moment and pray for thesafety of our soldiers and the
safe return of all of ourhostages.
The following episode is aconversation about Hayotzer

(00:32):
Winery with its acclaimedwinemaker, Philippe Lichtenstein
.
The name Hayotzer means thecreator in Hebrew, and this
winery, situated in Jerusalem,is owned by the Shore family,
Israel's oldest winemakingfamily.
They established their firstwinery in the old city of

(00:52):
Jerusalem in 1847, making there-establishment of the
country's recorded winemakinghistory.
Over eight generations, thefamily has expanded their
winemaking ventures, withHayotzer Winery emerging as a
quality-focused branch of theirArzah Winery Group.
Born in France, Philippe pursuedhis winemaking education at the

(01:15):
University of Montpellier, aprestigious institution known
for its viticulture and onologyprograms.
For its viticulture and onologyprograms he made.
Aliyah immigrated to Israel in1990, bringing with him a wealth

(01:36):
of knowledge and experiencefrom the French wine industry.
Philippe began his career atZichron Yaakov Cellars, one of
the country's prominent wineriesof the time, and in 2010, he
was appointed as the winemakerfor Arza Winery and, under his
guidance, arza launched theHayotzer brand in 2015, focusing
on producing wines that blendtraditional techniques with
modern innovation on the roadahead.

(02:00):
If you're comfortable at home,please select a wonderful bottle
of kosher wine, sit back, relaxand enjoy this interesting
chapter in kosher winemakinghistory with this very special
winemaker.
Welcome to The Kosher Terroir,Philippe.
Thank you.
Pleasure.
It's pronounced Lichtenstein,lichtenstein, lichtenstein,

(02:22):
lichtenstein, pleasure, you toldme before you were born in
Grenoble, france.

Philippe Lichtenstein (02:26):
Yeah.

S. Simon Jacob (02:27):
What inspired your journey into winemaking?

Philippe Lichtenstein (02:30):
You know, because I love the product, I
drink wine, and afterward itwill be during the studies,
because I go to agronomy Yep andI do my studies in Montpellier
in Ensa, and there there'sspecialization for viticulture

(02:51):
and oenology.
So I do it and began to work inFrance a little and afterward,
in 87, go to Israel.

S. Simon Jacob (03:00):
Okay, you worked in France in wine.

Philippe Lichtenstein (03:04):
Yeah, not a lot.
I do some vinification.
First I worked in studies in1984 in Lesignan-Corbière and
afterward I do vinification inThreats.
I work in Burgundy, in Urigny,in a lab, and I was a counselor
for viticulture and oenology inCorsica.

S. Simon Jacob (03:26):
In Corsica?
Yeah, were there any particularwinemakers or regions of France
that inspired you?

Philippe Lichtenstein (03:33):
The Mediterranean region.
I know them better.
I have not a good knowledge inBordeaux.

S. Simon Jacob (03:42):
What led to your Aliyah and to bring your
expertise to Israel.

Philippe Lichtenstein (03:47):
Oh, what leading.
I don't do Aliyah for a while.
I only look for a job in Israelin my specialization because
it's better for me.
So I go to all the winery Ithink I was in Carmen in 85 and
in 87, after they say they don'tneed me in 87, they call me

(04:10):
because they need someone toquality control.
They are doing renewing in thewinery and they need someone to
quality control.
Quality control is not sointeresting to me but it was a
job in wine so I began inquality control.
Afterward, after two years, theyasked me if I want to go to

(04:30):
Zichon Yakov to be a secondwinemaker.
And afterward I was 18 years inCarmel A little more than that
and half in Carmel, and I waswas winemaker in Zichon Yaakov
winery.
It's the biggest.
It was the biggest in Israel.
Now there is nothing.

(04:52):
And afterward I go to Arzawinery to do improvement of the,
to do improvement of the wine.
You know because in Carmel wedo a very long work to improve
the wine.
You know because in Carmel wedo a very long work to improve
the quality, because I thinkthat first in Israel there is no

(05:12):
place until the Golan open.
Yeah, nobody thinks that thereis place for high-priced wine.
I price it to be high qualities, but nobody thinks about this.
It was only big production oflow quality.

S. Simon Jacob (05:35):
Quantity rather than quality?
Yeah, okay, were there anychallenges that you faced in
adapting to the Israeli terroircompared to France or Corsica?

Philippe Lichtenstein (05:48):
There is first, you know, here people are
using irrigation a lot, yes,and there is studies from there
is.
You know?
I went to Israel, I think,about two studies from Mahon Ein
, the wine institute At thistime it was Charles Lange and

(06:11):
the studies they do is thatgrapes have to be irrigated.
They proved that in Israel youhave to have irrigation.
And second, they said that inthe summer, when grapes are
staying on the vine, you have adegradation of the quality.
So people are doing with a lotof irrigation to have big

(06:36):
quantity and not to going in thelong maturation.
In this way you are going tobig quantities and low quality,
yes, but it takes way.
You are going to big quantitiesand low quality, yes, but it
takes time.
You know, first you have tocontrol the irrigation.
Until now, I have a discussionwith a guy about the water.

(06:56):
As you know, this year we werein Mitzperemont.
I don't know the vineyard, soyou have to work with the farmer
and he knows.
But I think that in any way,the idea that if you are cutting
the water too much you have badresult is not right.

(07:20):
You know, and people are alwaysputting too much water.
I have a lot of discussionswith the farmers how to work
with less water.
We have a Malbec in Ramazirin.
Ramazirin is near Kvartavor andin this place, in the vineyard,
you have the point where thewater is coming inside, and near

(07:44):
this point you have a problembecause there is not a good
distribution.
Perhaps not a good distribution, but the water perhaps is going
down in some place.
So to have the same quantity ofwater disponible to the vines
you have to do differentialirrigation.

(08:04):
And when the guy goes to checkhe says this point, that there
is a loss of water in this pointand it's near the valve.
So he opens the valveautomatically and the second
part of the vineyard is too muchirrigated and people are not

(08:25):
controlling and they have notthe idea that you have to
control very precisely yourirrigation in order to have good
maturation.
Because when the vines are toomuch irrigated you have too much
vegetative expression and thematuration goes to be late.

(08:48):
And in Israel it's a problembecause you have very high
temperature and so you have adegradation of the quality.
Our problem, you know itdepends when, in the beginning
of the season, you can put morewater, because you have to have
a vegetative expression, becauseyou have to have leaves to have
photosynthesis.
In the second side, in thematuration stage, when you are

(09:12):
in the steps of maturation, youhave to be controlled of water
because in a normal you know, in, like Earth, what I learned in
Montpellier, like us, what Ilearned in Montpellier in
vegetal physiology, that you cansee as a balance okay.
And the maturation there aresome inputs that are going to

(09:37):
vegetative expression and someinputs are going to maturation.
You know maturation.
I have a big discussion with oneof the pharmacists.
You know maturation.
I have a big discussion withone of the farmers.
You know what maturation.
It says that the vine has to bepositive, green.
Positive is green.
The farmer is very happy whenhe's going in his file and see

(10:02):
all this green, going in hisfile and see all this green.
But I say that maturation is anexpression of death, because
what is going in the vine, inthe tree, is giving fruit,
because to give his descendantsin English, his descendants

(10:23):
because they he's the tree, he'sthinking that he's going to
death to die and so he goes todo maturation in order to have
fruits and the vegetativeexpression is that water, that
and water and ammonia okay, well, what was ammonia is going the

(10:51):
tree have a very good vegetativeexpression and if you are
cutting and and water and youknow all the elements, other
mineral elements are good formaturation, to have maturation.
So if you have too muchvegetative expression and so you

(11:11):
will have bad maturation and wewant a good maturation and they
say not a rapid maturation.
But in Israel, in our very hotcondition, to have too long
maturation perhaps for Cabernetis good, but for other varieties
is not so nice.

S. Simon Jacob (11:31):
Okay, first of all, I want to say thank you for
wrestling with the English forme.
Oh, I try.
No, you're doing a great job.
Even complicated concepts,you're expressing yourself very
well.
Your English is much betterthan you say Thank you, I'm just
telling you.
So I want you to know thatWe've been discussing the

(11:53):
terroir of Israel and how itimpacts the varietals that you
grow.
So you said for Cabernet, itcan handle the longer maturation
.
What other varietals do youdeal with?

Philippe Lichtenstein (12:08):
Okay, the Ayotzer, our policy was to try
to go with Mediterraneanvarieties because we are in
Mediterranean terroir here inIsrael.
So what is the reason?
Opposite.

(12:28):
You know why in Burgundy theyare working with Pinot Noir?
Because Pinot Noir havematuration, rapid maturation,
because if in Burgundy, no, theclimate is going warmer and
warmer, but if you see before,in Burgundy, let's say, in

(12:51):
October, november, it's verycold, so they have to have
grapes that mature early, soPinot Noir is early.
This is the reason, the reasonthat the Mediterranean varieties
are in the Mediterranean area.

(13:14):
It's more difficult tounderstand Because mostly it's
giving good quality and bigquantity in this area and we try
to work with Grenache, syrah,mourvèdre.
This is a difficult varietybecause there is a good
expression to giving fruit.

(13:35):
So say you have big quantity,you know, and you have, let's
say, mourvèdre, mourvèdre.
Very difficult variety, veryproblematic.
Sometimes it's not maturingwell.
We don't know why In 14, wedon't do Mourvèdre, because it
was absolute fiasco.

(13:55):
We wait, wait, wait and havenothing.
But Mourvèdre, in any way, isgiving a lot of fruit, very good
grapes.
It's difficult to close thewater for the Mourvèdre because
all the leaves are going down.
It's very sensitive for dryness.
Okay, and very difficult to doanything.

(14:18):
You know you have the problemwith the rootstock, yes, and so
you have to Mourvèdre, so youhave to move it, you have to
give it, let's say, withsufficient water as to control
it.
You have to cut to have lessfruit and there are two
possibilities.
In Netophar, you know, netophar,netophar, they do, they hunt it

(14:41):
very, very strongly.
They let five eyes in each, Idon't remember, in each vine, I
think, and they have lessquantity with big grapes.
What we do is different.
I let we are cutting with oneeye in each one and afterward

(15:03):
take all the second grapes, youknow, in each one and afterward
take all the second grapes, youknow, in each bud, in each bud
you have as it's growing.
You have about two grapes InPetit Verdot, sometimes you have
four, it's different for thevariety but Clusters, okay,
clusters, clusters, okay.
So we take all the second one,okay, and so we add grapes,

(15:23):
because if you are going withless grapes, you have big grapes
.
So the vine is always doingcompensation, okay, when they do
in Bignamina, when I was inCaramel, they do a test in Petit
Verdot, okay, they have fourgrapes in each bag and they say
too much, so they cut two.

S. Simon Jacob (15:46):
There's four clusters in each bud that grows.

Philippe Lichtenstein (15:51):
In buds grow, there's four clusters, so
they cut two and they see thatthe two left grow like another
one.
There is always compensation.
So the way I see in our day toto have, let's say, a lot of
grapes to cut half, but later,as you can't do it late, we do

(16:17):
it late because you have nocompensation afterwards and it
was the way that we worked withthe Mourvelle.
It's work.
It's work In the Grenachemostly you have too much grapes
to have good maturation.
I think in California, when Ispeak with a guy in Napa they
say that they are seeing thematuration and cut, but they are

(16:41):
cutting about 18 bricks.
Okay, In Grenache you can't doit because there is so much
density of fruit and if you letall the density of fruit, of
leaves, when you are cutting,you cut the cluster, you do
damage, you damage the othercluster.

S. Simon Jacob (17:04):
So when you're talking about cutting, you do
damage.
You damage the other cluster.
So when you're talking aboutcutting, you're not talking
about harvesting.
You're talking about actuallycutting to make less clusters in
order for the vine to focus onthe clusters that you're leaving
.
Okay, very cool.

Philippe Lichtenstein (17:21):
This is because Mediterranean variety
I'm not speaking of Syrah Syrahwe are only doing taking shoots
in green but not taking downclusters, because Syrah you have
about less, about 10, 10.2.
So there's a problem.
But you know, in Grenache andin Morvedre we have to take out

(17:41):
clusters.
Mourvedre, we have to take outclusters.
This is a problem ofMediterranean grapes.
Mediterranean grapes, if theyhave water and sun, they are
doing big quantities.
So you have to refrain it andthis is a problem of
Mediterranean grapes.
But you know it's doing all thewine.
It's not a strong coloredCabernet, but it's more elegant,

(18:06):
more smoothy wine, more goodfor more food, wine for every
meat.
It's something different, butyou know, in the Israeli market
the problem is that people knowCabernet, know Cab and they want
Cab.

S. Simon Jacob (18:23):
But I've noticed that the market is changing.
People are getting used to,especially in a hot summer,
drinking a heavy cab is notnearly as much fun or as nice as
drinking one of the lighterwines and it's like a Morvedre.
Morvedre is a difficult winebecause it's like a Morved.

Philippe Lichtenstein (18:45):
Morved is a difficult wine because you
know it's like Pinot Noir.
They say that Morved is thePinot Noir of the South because
they have the same problem ofPinot Noir.
Pinot Noir when they first, Isee what I see in this wine.
What in Kibbutz, kiryat Hanavim?
The same problem A lot ofclusters, big quantities of

(19:05):
grapes that you have to refrain,and in maturation it's the same
.
You know Mourvedre, you have toopen the bottle, see what is
going on and sometimes you haveto do aeration, sometimes to
drink it as it.
And it's more difficult to winefor the people because
sometimes they have not goodexperience with Mourvedre but

(19:28):
because Mourvedre is the winethat you have to work with it
and you know, for a new marketas Israel it's very difficult.

S. Simon Jacob (19:35):
But I've noticed that the winemakers are getting
more accustomed to thesevarietals and the wine is
getting better and better andbetter each year.

Philippe Lichtenstein (19:47):
Yeah, you know, I began 35 years, no more
37 years, in Israel.
When I go in, I speak withIsrael.
Israel Flamm was wine maker inRichon and taste Egyptian wines.
It was something awful.
And he said you know, philip,20 years ago the wine was like

(20:09):
this, you know.
So we are always improving andI say that from now we always
will improve the quality of thewine because there is a great
potential in Israel.
There is a great potentialbecause we don't know very well.
You know, in France, when a guyfrom Barrels I think this was
Radu, no, demtos, demtos go andthey say you know, to adapt a

(20:32):
vineyard to a Barrels is fiveyears, not less, you can't do
less.
In Israel, they open a vineyardtwo years after selling wines
like it was the best wine in theworld.
I think in wine business thetime is doing the job.

S. Simon Jacob (20:51):
It certainly is here.
It certainly is here to watch.
You're the winemaker atHayotzer Winery, so Hayotzer has
a long history.
It was part of the Shore familygroup of wineries, so it has a
history that goes back to 1848or something.
Seven, what?
1847.
1847.

(21:12):
Sorry, but, hayotzer, each ofthe wineries has its own vision.
Can you share the vision forHayotzer?
What's the vision that you'retrying to set it apart from all
the other wineries in Israel?

Philippe Lichtenstein (21:26):
Okay, the different vision from Ayatollah
.
It was to work with, not be acab winery.
We do cab too, but it was notour first vision.
Second, perhaps going againstthe stream, and if you see 30

(21:46):
years before or 40, 30 yearsbefore in Bordeaux, the wines as
12.5, 13.
No, it's 13.5 and more Becauseit's a trend.
The trend is not to have morealcohol, because in France they
are looking for varieties todevelop varieties that are

(22:07):
giving the same maturation withless alcohol, because they are
doing desalcoholization of thewine, because alcohol is a
problem, but what you have tohave is maturation.
So they are going.
It was the Penaud way ofthinking of the wine.
It's two weeks more inmaturation to have more
maturation.
The aim is to have maturationto have more tannin, more taste,

(22:31):
more color, more flavor in thewine.
Wine will be strong, notbecause you have alcohol but
because going later inmaturation is giving
automatically more alcohol.
Because going later inmaturation is giving
automatically more alcohol.
I think that in first we takeagainst the stream and doing cab
, let's say about 30.5 and don'twaiting the two weeks more.

(22:55):
You know when I'm working,mostly in Dichon area in our
best quality Merlot and cabarsin Dichon area in our best
quality Merlot and Cabas inDichon area, and always don't go
to 25, 26.
Sometimes we are harvesting in25 because between the time I

(23:17):
decide that we harvest and wehave to have a machine free and
we have condition and sometimestaking time, so you have a delay
from.
You have always to decidebefore, when, when, to think
about.
We are not not a big winery andwe are working in a lot of area

(23:40):
, so we are not controlling inany way.
We have always a little one inway, we have always the little
one In each area.
We have the little one working.
So to have a machine, anharvesting machine, I have to
command it before.
So we have always to do goodplanification.

(24:00):
Sometimes we are changing Inour planification, sometimes we
are changing okay, but so, andin our planification we are
taking that, let's say, 24, 25.
We're talking about breaks,right?
Yeah, always, you know thesugar, the conception of sugar
is the parameter we have thebiggest relation with the

(24:20):
quality in any way.
What you do, what all thechecks they do, always the
breaks have correlation withquality.
Until you are going to after 25, breaks is different, but you
know you are doing jam, butalways if you are seeking.
There is a very big correlationbetween sugar and quality in

(24:42):
the same vineyard.
So we are always working a lotto go to very late maturation,
okay, and you have more freshwine, more I say.
I say twin-cabin wine okaybecause it's less concentrated.
I know that people in Israellike concentrated wine because

(25:03):
they are feeling that they arepaying for something you know.
But you know you are littleagainst the stream, not a lot,
because you can be a lot againstthe mainstream and living.

S. Simon Jacob (25:16):
You have to sell .
You still have to sell wine.

Philippe Lichtenstein (25:18):
Yeah, you know about selling.
We do a very, very good whitewine two years in barrels, like
in Burgundy Otter white.
We do it with Viognier andRoussan and we go to Isha Navim,
you know, in Tel Aviv and we dotesting.

(25:40):
Everybody thinks fantastic wine, something special.
People don't take the firstbottle from the shelf Never,
because it's high pricing andit's wine and something
different and we don't sell onebottle.
We don't know the quantity.

(26:00):
We have some barbers Until 2019, until now it's very good wine,
but you know you have to sellit.
Nobody tastes the wine, not indegustation, professional
degustation, everybody givinggood notes, okay, but you know,

(26:21):
in the public nobody tastes thewine.
So you don't sell anythingNever.
Different things, somethingdifferent.
High-priced wines in restaurants, the restaurant is taking three
times the price, so it's soexpensive.
It's very difficult In veryhigh-priced wines without a good

(26:42):
name, very good name, it's to.
In very high price wineswithout a good name, very good
name, it's difficult to be doingto be drank.
You know it's white lance.
You know, very, very shalky,yes, and in Ruggieri, I think
only.
And we have the same problem InBarbera.
The problem to have goodBarbera is to control the

(27:05):
quantity of the grapes, you know, because Barbera is giving very
, very big clusters sometimes.
So it's the same problem ofcontrol the water in the growing
and cut grapes if you have whendo you in order to optimize
that?

S. Simon Jacob (27:24):
when do you actually go through and cut out
some of the clusters?
When is the best time to dothat?

Philippe Lichtenstein (27:31):
You know we are doing this because we
have problems with workers.
When in the Grenache and theMorvettes because in the
Grenache you have to do it it'sabout like a big green pea, we
cut it Because afterward, whenit's about like a big green pea,
we cut it because afterwardwhat is going to maturation?
If you are cut grown, grown ash, you, you are damaging the
other clusters and we do themove it at the same time.

(27:53):
The move it can be doneafterwards.
But you know you have sometimesproblem of of workers.
In barbara is the same.
You know we are cutting ingreen Before they are changing
the color, before in French it'sout months because in French
it's going in August.
You know when the tree is goingfrom vegetative to maturation,

(28:18):
the step of vegetating growingand going to the step of
maturation, you have threeparameters that you can see.
First is going to be woody.
You know the bud is green,going to be woody.
Second, you have the apex.
The growing part of the grapesis going down.

(28:39):
It's drying and going down.
You know, in Israel if you seea lot of vineyards, there's two
things the grapes changing color.
In white it's more difficult tosee, but in red it's very easy
to see.
This is a three thing Changingof color, the bud is going to be

(29:00):
woody and the apex is fallingdown.
You know, and in Israel you aregoing in a lot of vineyards
they are changing color but theapex is continuing growing.
So this is not good formaturation, you know, for low
quality it's okay For highquality.
You have always seen of thekot-kot smicha in Hebrew the

(29:23):
apex if it's working, working alot drying this is because
hormona you know all the answersare like in the human body.
You are hormones in the grapesand the grapes.
The tree is receiving signaland after this is working with

(29:45):
them and if there is a signalthat is the time to continue to
grow, they continue to grow andis not good for the maturation.

S. Simon Jacob (29:55):
I get it.
Wow, it's really such a balance.
Yeah, it's such a balancebetween.

Philippe Lichtenstein (30:01):
In 24.
We have a problem because inthe night the temperature is not
going down sufficiently,because most of the production
of the let's say qualityproducts, quality components in
the vine is at night, at night,and it's better with low

(30:21):
temperature.
It's why we are going up to,let's say, galil Golan.

S. Simon Jacob (30:29):
Higher oh higher higher.
No, no, no, it's perfect.

Philippe Lichtenstein (30:33):
Or going to the desert, you know, because
in its pyramid you have lowtemperature at night and this is
a way to have good maturation.
But this year's in the southmost is, you know, in the north,
in in galil, you have thecabernet of good maturation.
But in the south, in lachish, inmitzperamon, not only in my, in

(30:56):
our vineyard the maturation wasnot, uh, not so good, not so
good and uh, we will seeafterwards with the wine.
You know, in wine you aresurprised because in 83, in
Macon region in Burgundy they dowhite wine for mostly

(31:17):
Chardonnay, and this is a wineand they say we have to, this
will not be a good wine, we haveto sell it very.
And they say we have to, thiswill not be a good wine, we have
to sell it very and they sellit in low price to England.
Okay, afterwards they say whata pity because the wine in
bottle was developing very welland there are people are looking

(31:37):
for for for 83.
So you don't, you never know inthis business sometimes you see
that you don't want to keep thewine and you have to see the
maturation of the wine in thecellar.
But it seems to be that in thesouth, most in CAB, that 24 will
not be so good here.

S. Simon Jacob (32:00):
So I was told by many winemakers that this year
the quantities are much lower.
The yield is much, much lower.

Philippe Lichtenstein (32:12):
Okay, you know you can't have big quality
with big yield, but low yieldis not evidently good quality.
You know sometimes you have badyield, low yield, not evidently
good quality.
You know sometimes you have badyield, low yield and low
quality, all can be.
You know they are in cab in thesouth.

(32:35):
They are very, very low yield.
But I think what I see we willsee afterward, but as I see the
grape and the wines, until toknow it seems to be low quality
too.

S. Simon Jacob (32:50):
Okay, unfortunate, unfortunate.
This is a hard year foreverybody.

Philippe Lichtenstein (32:55):
This has become a very hard year for
everybody, you know in the northwe have problems like in
English, a thing that is havetwo things, two types of mildew.
I think it's Dornier mildew.
You have powdery mildew andDornier mildew.
It's plus more viticola.
I think that it's Dorniermildew in English, but I'm not

(33:15):
sure and they do damage, a lotof damage, and the people in the
north, because of the war, cango as they want to the vineyard
to trade them and there is a lotof loss of quantity Because

(33:36):
when milieu is going in thecluster in the beginning that's
all I go.
It's Karenian, you know.
But I go in a vineyard and Itell to the grower see and see
these rows, see if the clustersyou have the grapes you have

(33:58):
here is paying the machine and Ithink about 10% of the rows
they don't harvest them Becausethe price of the grafts are not
paying the price of theharvesting machine.

S. Simon Jacob (34:13):
Of the harvesting machine.
Wow, wow, wow, wow.
Do you have a personal favoriteamong the wines that you
produce?
Personal favorite yes.

Philippe Lichtenstein (34:22):
Ah, a favorite.
Ah, okay, a favorite of yours,oh, oh, I don't, I didn't in the
second way.
Okay, sorry, you know.
Uh, when I testing the bubbles,always, sometimes you are very
depleting because it's not whatyou, you are thinking that you,

(34:43):
you will have at this stage, butsometimes you are going out
after a degustation with a very,very, very, very good feeling.
You know, and the wine, this isthe wine.
You know Each wine, I think,each time they're giving,
sometimes they have open bottlesand you are so, so happy that

(35:06):
we see that we do so you have aspecial favor for this wine.
But I think that you have totake each wine.
Each wine can give somethingspecial.
But I think that in Israelthere are perhaps two wines.
I have a vineyard of Syrah.
It's growing, sometimes very,very fantastic things, and from

(35:27):
there Petite Syrah.
Petite Syrah is very difficultbecause you can't.
When you are waiting formaturation, this is drying and
you have nothing to take.
So sometimes we are harvestingtoo early.
This is a problem forPetiteizira, because too late is
impossible.
But I have in 18, in 23,fantastic wine.

(35:52):
Something fantastic isdeveloping in.
I am not a lot of barbers ofTizira, but developing in
barbers is fantastic In 21,.
21 was a fantastic Tizira.
You know, sometimes, and youknow I remember we do the first
Zarit In Carmel.
They do the when they'rebeginning to do high quality

(36:13):
wines.
We're working with our vineyardin Zarit, cabernet, and the
first we sent Barot, it wasSchmitta, it was 2001.
And I think two, three yearsago I opened it.
Fantastic, it's until to know,a very good one, and sometimes

(36:35):
I'm surprised, you know.
So you give this, you have favorfor this wine in the same time,
because first you do it, let'ssay food processing.
Same time, because first you doit, let's say food processing,
let's say well, wines is a partof the transformation of
agriculture matter to to food.
But you know it's differentbecause of the potential of

(36:57):
aging of the wine and thepotential of developing most of
the of the food products thatyou do.
It's better in the same day.
Afterwards it's going down.
One is different.
You have another evolution andsometimes you taste something.
So you remember, and this isgiving you the fave for the wine

(37:20):
.
But I think you know whatspecial wine.
I think that the surprise fromSyrah and Petit Syrah was the
best, you know.

S. Simon Jacob (37:26):
Very cool.
Do you have a specific varietalthat you like the most the
Petit Syrah and the Syrah or isthere a varietal that you enjoy
the most?

Philippe Lichtenstein (37:37):
I enjoy them most because of the result,
you know, because you knowMourvedre is perhaps the same
thing.
Sometimes the evolution is thepossibility of evolution, is so
big that they think there'ssomething personal inside.
You know, because doing a goodcab, you know, this is more or

(37:59):
less interesting, I think.
In my point of view, it isinteresting what we can do from
something that does not seem tobe the best quality and you work
in the vineyard and afterwardin the vineyard do something
special, you know.
So this is personal, but youknow our best wine is Cab,

(38:23):
nothing to do.
The best wine or the bestselling wine, I think if you say
in all the years, okay, yeah,always, perhaps not always our
first wine when you taste.
I don't speaking of pricing, but, I think the best if you take

(38:44):
each series of one, the bestbarrels, okay, and you take all
the years, the barrels, I thinkconsistently is giving the best
result.
Okay, that's all.
But you know this is not sointeresting.
It's interesting the Merlot,that one year is nice and you

(39:04):
never know why For these yearsyou have so good results.
It's more interesting, you know, because you are surprising.
You see the evolution that youare not waiting for.
You know this is moreinteresting.

S. Simon Jacob (39:25):
So a lot of what you've talked about on the
podcast so far is about thevineyard side.
Yeah, what about the winemakingside?
Inside the winery there aredifferent people who different
winemaking side.
Inside the winery there aredifferent people, different
winemakers.
Some people feel like wine ismade in the vineyard and some

(39:46):
people say no wine is made inthe winery.

Philippe Lichtenstein (39:50):
Most of the people think that 80% of the
quality of the wine is in thevineyard.
Why?
Because this is the basis youknow, yeah, why?
Because this is the basis, youknow you can't what they say in
the winery.
You always can spoil the wine,you know, because afterward you
have to have in the winery tohave the expression of the

(40:11):
quality you know.
So you have to have big, goodtanks in a way to have good
fermentation and good macerationand you have to have a good lab
in order to know when to do alloperation, when you have to
rake and when you have tosulfate the wine.

(40:31):
And you need a good barrelcellar in order not to have less
problem in your barrels andwith consistent temperature and
humidity you have to have goodmaterial to operate the wine.
Afterward you can choose thetechniques you know, with some
way doing long maturation, shortmaturation.
This is different.
This is a decision, okay.

(40:54):
So perhaps in your decision inthe winery you have the
expression of the quality in thevineyard.
You know you have to express it.
But with bad grapes never dosomething special.
Perhaps a very nice wine, youknow, is more easier in a white
wine and in rosé, you know totake, let's say, grapes no, you

(41:17):
know to take.
Let's say grapes no.
So quality and to have a very,very nice and sometimes smoothy
white or rosé, because you dothe works mostly during the
fermentation.
Afterward, during thematuration on leaves, you can
have a very, very nice product,can have a very, very nice
product, but high quality, withpossibility of long aging.

(41:43):
You have to have very goodquality grapes in any way.

S. Simon Jacob (41:46):
Just a couple more questions.
Your approach in crafting wineand when you're making wine.
There's a traditionalistapproach which is like French,
and there's a little bit more ofa modern approach.

Philippe Lichtenstein (42:02):
There was a traditional approach, because
I have a traditional approachbecause I learned in France and
what I worked.
You know it's very old vineriesas I worked, so it was
traditional products and nothingspecial.
But you know, in the market, inBordeaux too, they ask to have
chips, they can put chips.
In Bordeaux too, they ask tohave chips, they can put chips
in.
I say no, they can't, becauseyou have to go with the market.

(42:25):
And Bordeaux in 1924 is notBordeaux 40 years ago, because
the tradition is changing,because when they do the test
and the Californian wines werebetter notes than the French
wine, so they have to doadaptation.
You know always, but I thinkthat I have a more traditional

(42:49):
approach of the wine.
You know, more aeration duringfermentation, are you?

S. Simon Jacob (42:55):
using new oak barrels to use.

Philippe Lichtenstein (42:58):
You know we are working both.
Always when you are going tobarrels and really tasting the
best barrels was barrels ofsecond utilization, you know,
because you know fresh barrelsis too much barrels in the wine,
you are losing fruit.
Okay, so what we are doing, weare doing a mixing, we are

(43:21):
working with barrels like, Ithink, all the winery.
If you are speaking of twoyears barrels, barrels are doing
three cycles with six years andafterwards go out.
Perhaps we are taking from tosweet wine or for something
special, all barrels, but it'sabout three cycles in one barrel

(43:41):
about.
You know, the best quality ishalf new barrels, mostly French,
you know.
But when we are going with inthe first, the idea of the
Lyrica Mediterranean series,what to going is only ten months
Celery's, what to going is only10 months of barrels with only

(44:02):
so new, only American, in orderto give to the people a taste of
wood, because in quality winethey want it, but not too much
Afterward because the sellingare not going well.
So we are going to two years inbarrels because the wine stayed
and it was good.
But I think that in theMediterranean wines you have not

(44:26):
to have too much wood becauseyou will have a woody wine.
One of the criticisms about thefirst high-quality wine in
Israel of the boutique the firstboutique was barrel wines.
You are drinking wood, onlyOaky.
The first boutique was barrelwines.
You are drinking wood, onlyOaky.
Too oaky, too oaky.
So and I have a discussion withone of the owner, without name,

(44:47):
that he want to work it was 20years ago, something like this
and he want to put 100% of newbarrels.
So you know, after what we aredoing taking all the barrels out
, you know, after what we aredoing taking all the barrels out
, two years after what you aredoing, I tell him that your
wines are not to be priced asonly new barrels, because new

(45:12):
barrels is a factor of price.
You know you are new barrels.
Let's say you are paying aboutin this time it is what good
barrels?
It's about 700 euros about.
So you have 3,000 shekels.
So you have more than 10shekels per bottle only in
barrels.

S. Simon Jacob (45:32):
Only to price.

Philippe Lichtenstein (45:34):
And so I say you are not fair with your
customer because we are giving aso high price wine, so high
price because of the barrels andyour wines is not so high
quality.
You know, I think that there isvery fancy.
You know people in Israel arepricing the wine.

(45:56):
How much time in barrels?
First, if you see people arewriting the time in barrels, but
not in what barrels you can putall barrels.
Let's say we are buying 400shekel wine and it's not giving

(46:18):
nothing In all barrels you haveaging.
The aging in barrels you have,let's say, two facets.
The first is the wood.
The barrels are giving wood,all barrels not giving wood.
The second is a very, very slowaeration, to have a very slow

(46:39):
oxidation of the wine, right,and this is giving the
maturation.
So if you have in old barrels,you have only this phase of the
maturation and the wood is inaroma and in tannin that you
have in the mouth.
And you see, you know, I testnot all the only the same wines

(47:00):
in new old barrels.
It's very, very different.
Yeah, and they are not waiting.
I don't see a lot of winery,they say, this time in new
French barrels.

S. Simon Jacob (47:10):
Right.

Philippe Lichtenstein (47:11):
And the people in the mind of the people
is the same.
You know?

S. Simon Jacob (47:15):
Yeah, they just especially the basic consumers.
You know, part of the problem,I think, comes from in Bordeaux.
They age in oak for at least 24months.
It's the.
You know.
Even the minimum is 24 months.
Here we don't.
I think it's because of theclimate and other things.

(47:37):
But and I'm not sure, I wouldlike to hear your opinion of it
but here if you age an oak for24 months or 36 months or what
have you, it becomes a problem.

Philippe Lichtenstein (47:50):
You know, if you see the no, I don't test
very young Bordeaux, but whenfor the Vinali, they do the
young Bordeaux, the primer, yes,okay, they put, they do
malolactic in barrels and theyput in a very friendly barrels
with not a lot of tannin inorder to have young wine.

(48:11):
Because in Bordeaux, from thevineyard and from the barrels
you have a lot of tannin andafter one year of maturation
it's indriquable, you know, it'sso arched, it's indriquable.
They have to have the two yearsof barrels and the one year on

(48:33):
bottom in order to be drinkablefirst.
That's why it's indriquable.
In Israel you have not the sameproblem.
You have drinkable wine thatsay no.
So the aging in barrels isimproving the wine, yes, but
your way of thinking isdifferent.
I don't see in my winery a lotof wine, you know which.

(48:53):
You are putting in barrelsthree, four months after, rather
taking the wood.
Sometimes it's very, very hardand if you want to commercial,
to sell this kind of wine, it'simpossible.
But as I taste young Bordeauxafter six months of barrels, so
much tannin, that I don't know.

(49:13):
But I am speaking in the 80sand you can drink it, and so
it's different, but I amspeaking in the 80s.
Okay, and you can drink it,right, and so it's different.
You have different grapes,different way of work with wood.

S. Simon Jacob (49:29):
That that those old Bordeaux's, though.
Just a question those oldBordeaux's, do you feel like
they?
They were able to reach higherlevels of complexity over time.

Philippe Lichtenstein (49:47):
Or they just became approachable so much
, much, much, much later.
I think that the approach inBordeaux is different.
You know you are going inlonger maturation so you are
more easy drinking wine earlier,okay, so it's changing.
But I think in this kind ofwine not to point a lot of
Bordeaux, but good wines, Ithink in any way aging is aging

(50:11):
in bottles.
Okay, in the high-priceBordeaux you are not a lot of
cashier and it always gives,give you good feeling, good
product in is doing good for thewine.
The israelian wine is differentbecause you have no lot of

(50:32):
experience.
You know there is not a lot ofwineries are keeping wines in
Vinotech a long time and a lotof people test them.
You know it's mostly for thewinery to see what is going in
the long aging and I thinkthat's a losing of experience

(50:53):
for long aging.
You know, I tell you I open mywines because I have one in the
winekeeper, so to see what isgoing after 20, something like
20 years.
And it was very, very, very,very, very nice wine and people
mostly are drinking it the sameday.
This is the first.
But let's say, if you'rekeeping wine five years, I don't

(51:18):
see.
You know you have to have bigpossibilities.
You know it's not for all thefrom some special people that
cannot.
So big wine seller in our house, but I don't think that the way
of my.
In my opinion, I have to seethat people drink my bottles,

(51:41):
mostly in, say, one year after,after we release it, you know,
because we are keeping inbottles in the vineyard and for
a release, I think mostly Ithink that is this is you know.
Mostly I think that is this isyou know.

(52:03):
In studies they say that 80% ofthe guys in the same day or
tomorrow, they say the winerywill be open and this has to be.
You know the best quality hasto be on the table.
You know To say to produce awine and you say you know the
best quality has to be on thetable.
You know to say to produce wineand you say you know, if you

(52:26):
keep with my father-in-law, okay, I have a friend that's selling
wine in France, in Strasbourg,and there was a board, I don't
remember the name.
There's a problem.
People are giving to the sellerback.
Okay, don't remember the name.
There's a problem.
People are giving to the sellerback, okay.
So we taste the wine.
It was very reduced, very.

(52:48):
And we put it in carafe, okay,and I taste it each day.
After a week, very nice wineand the owner said what I can do
with the bottle.
I said you can't say to yourcustomer, you know you have to
pull it in the carafe.
And after a week he said OK,send it back.
You know the wine has to be atthe best quality in the table.

(53:12):
It's very, very difficult.
Sometimes people winemakerswant that in the feeling the
wine will be better.
You have to think always, justa little time.

S. Simon Jacob (53:22):
What's at the table?

Philippe Lichtenstein (53:23):
So and you don't know when.
You know, in rosé winesometimes you have in your
storage, okay, good storage, butit's only going to the market
one year after and it's not thesame one in Rosé.
You know Rosé is not.
Grenache is good, but HonoréBazac says that only Tavel can

(53:48):
be aging in Rosé, because it'sonly Grenache that you know.
The guy in Côte de Provencesays that only Mourvedre,
because Mourvedre is notchanging Right.
But you know, aging rosé isnever a good idea, never, never,
because you know the point isgoing oxidated and you are not

(54:14):
to wait.
Rosé is very fresh and you haveto be, because when you do rosé
you never know when it's besold.
If you put, if you it's too muchreduced and and there is a big
problem in rosé in the 80 in hot, it was, um, the best selling
in restaurant that they arereduced because they are so

(54:35):
afraid of oxidation that theyare putting reduced wine on the
on the table in the restaurant.
You know, I don't.
And reduction it's in francethey do studies in testing what
is the the biggest problem inthe wine and and why, and and
they, they test wines that andthey test and check wines that.

(54:58):
Uh, people are giving back tothe cell and they say the
biggest problem is reductionmore than oxidation.
More than oxidation becausereduction is very bad smells and
they don't put the wine inmouth.
You know, and when you havethis kind of wine you have to
protect it for oxidation, butnot too much.

(55:20):
You know, this is always inbalance and sometimes it's going
well.

S. Simon Jacob (55:25):
That's happened to me, where I've tasted a wine
and I said, oh, this is bad, andthe winemaker said, no, it's
actually reduction.
Give it a little bit of timeand it ends up being amazing.

Philippe Lichtenstein (55:40):
Yeah, but you can't say to the customer
you know, I say for Vinorywithout name in Israel I taste
the Pinot Noir and so much timeit was so hard.
I tell the guy, you know, putin the bottle, lock the bottle
and it's only opening after 60years.
You know, because you can'tdrink this.

(56:01):
Yeah.

S. Simon Jacob (56:02):
No, you're very pragmatic.
You know the word pragmatic.
Pragmatic is, we try to be.
Yeah, you are.
You're very pragmatic and it'strue, everybody keeps thinking
about these wines over, you know, 20 years or this, and that
it's actually what you need tofocus on is the table.
When the person opens the wine,what are they going to taste,

(56:23):
and that's the bottom line withit.
Last question when a personopens a bottle of Hayotzer, what
do you want them to experience?
What do you want them to getout of it?

Philippe Lichtenstein (56:38):
Oh, you know, wine it's only a pleasure.
You know they have to be.
You know, in wine they have tobe a pleasure from the beginning
.
From smelling the wine, uh, Ihave no color.
For me it's less important,because we are working with
Mediterranean varieties, andMediterranean varieties is not

(57:01):
the deep red color.
You have good color, not brownwine, but you know a nice color.
But color is less important,you know, and what is important
is from the first smell untilthe evolution and until the
drinking, all the way, it willbe pleasure.
Only, I think that is the aimyou know to do.

(57:25):
When you buy wine is expensiveproduct.
Buying a good wine, people areputting at least the minimum is
50 chequers, coca-cola is 7.
No, and it's twice the quantity.
But in wine people have to havethe pleasure of the wine, the

(57:48):
degustation and the pleasure ofthe pairing with the food,
because it's symbiosis.
You know you have to have morethan each wine alone and I think
that's the aim.
You know, people are verypleased that they drink my wine,

(58:08):
that's all.

S. Simon Jacob (58:10):
Thank you.
You know you close off everylittle video broadcast that you
do, from Hayotzer with the Hayet, hayotzer with Lechaye Hayotzer
.

Philippe Lichtenstein (58:20):
Yes, lechaye, hayotzer Lechaye.

S. Simon Jacob (58:22):
Hayotzer Amen Baruch Hashem.
Thank you, thank you very much,thank you.

Philippe Lichtenstein (58:27):
Bye-bye, bye.

S. Simon Jacob (58:38):
This is Simon Jacob, again your host of
today's episode of the KosherTerroir.
I have a personal request nomatter where you are or where
you live, please take a momentto pray for our soldiers' safety
and the safe and rapid returnof our hostages.
Please subscribe via yourpodcast provider to be informed

(59:00):
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If you're new to the KosherTerwa, please check out our many
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