July 7, 2026 • 45 mins
Share your feedback or provide industry news topics.
Charles Tofferi joins Ryan to discuss why developers should involve contractors earlier, how better communication leads to better projects, and what separates great contractor relationships from costly ones. He also shares lessons from the field and practical advice for successful site development.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
You know, I would challenge any owner or
developer, get a contractorinvolved early, see what they
think, right?
If you're in the napkin drawingphase of a project, what do they
think?
What are the means and methods?
How are they looking at it?
Have conversations early on, notunder contract, to see what kind
of contractor they are.
Are they going to go into theweeds?
(00:20):
Are they going to provide valueearly on when they're not under
contract?
SPEAKER_01 (00:38):
Hey, what's going on, everybody?
Welcome back to the LandDevelopment Podcast.
I am your host, Ryan Glick.
We have an interview episode foryou today, and joining me is
Charles Tuffery.
Did I say that right?
Tofferi.
Dang it.
I messed it up.
We just talked about it and Imessed it up in the intro.
Tofferi.
And uh Charles is the VP ofsales, marketing, and
(00:59):
pre-construction at PetticoatSmith Civil Contractors.
Charles, thanks for joining me.
SPEAKER_00 (01:03):
I appreciate you having me on board here.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (01:05):
Man, I can't believe I really messed up that intro
just like that.
You know, messing up your lastname.
SPEAKER_00 (01:10):
No, it's you're not you're not the first.
You're not gonna be the last.
You know, 99% of people get itwrong.
So no worries.
SPEAKER_01 (01:16):
Yeah, well, I appreciate that.
Well, let's uh let's get intoyour background here to start
out with.
So you it looks like you startedas an engineer and project
manager.
And uh and I'm just curious whatbrought you into the
construction and infrastructureside?
SPEAKER_00 (01:32):
Uh great question.
It's totally unexpected, right?
So uh went to high school, youknow, was planning on being a
DOD contractor, you know,designing weapons, being in the
military, something related tothe DOD, right?
Uh so went to the University ofAlabama, got my uh engineering
degree in mechanicalengineering, went and worked for
a uh chemical manufacturingcompany and realized I'm not a
(01:55):
huge fan of engineering as muchas I thought.
And there was an opportunity inJacksonville to get back home
and be in the constructionspace.
I'd always been fond of it.
I grew up around it, so I wasnot unfamiliar to it uh and
absolutely jumped at theopportunity.
Get back into the industry, getback into building and and
developing something, and fellin love with it.
(02:16):
So definitely not expected whenI graduated to to be in
construction, but uh as Iprogressed in in my my career, I
realized that this was reallyhome.
This is where I was meant to beall along.
SPEAKER_01 (02:27):
So you think was it more of a location thing?
You wanted to like did you wantto get back to the location
first and then you pickedconstruction, or was it
construction that brought youback to your home?
SPEAKER_00 (02:37):
Construction really brought me back home.
You know, I I went to I went toAlabama trying to get away from
Jacksonville, trying to get awayfrom home.
And the the longer and longer Istayed away from home, the more
I felt compelled and pulled tocome back to Jacksonville.
But it really wasn't until I Igot into the real world and and
into a different industry andstarted working.
Maybe I made the wrong careerchoice in in doing something
(03:00):
that I thought I'd really like.
Uh and and just so happens, youknow, we all gravitate towards
something that's natural andfeels good.
Jacksonville was natural.
I had family there, I hadfriends there.
And there was something about asafety net being back home to
where you can really startsomething new, something fresh,
and have the support of thecommunity around you.
Um not only that, butJacksonville is freaking
awesome.
You know, you got the beach fromthere, you got you got the
(03:22):
river, and uh so it's it's ahard place to be.
SPEAKER_01 (03:25):
Well, for those who aren't familiar with your
company, um, could you describewhat the company does?
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (03:31):
Uh Pettigo Schmidt, we are a heavy civil contractor.
We do water resource uhconstruction, so building new
plants, rehabilitation ofexisting plants, uh, so water,
wastewater, lift stations, pumpstations, wellheads, anything
that uh transports or or um uhhandles the process of water and
wastewater.
(03:51):
So that's just one group.
We do public work, so we dealwith public entities, uh, line
work, roadway construction, uhanything in that sector.
But we also do site developmentin the private space.
So um we do a lot of commercialdevelopment, single family,
multifamily, uh industrial, uh,so heavy development across the
board.
unknown (04:10):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (04:11):
Moving earth or doing utilities, we're all about
it.
And where where do you operateout of?
So we're in Jacksonville,Florida.
Um, we've got one office here inJacksonville.
We will travel up to 300 milesfor all three branches of our
business.
Uh, but really the core focus,um, the public work and the site
development aspect of thebusiness is really within 100
miles of Jacksonville.
SPEAKER_01 (04:32):
Gotcha.
And so your role at the company,um, being you know, on the
sales, marketing,pre-construction side of things,
what does that look like?
SPEAKER_00 (04:39):
It's it's a great opportunity, man.
It's it's different every singleday, and I love it.
You know, one of the things Ilove to say is that I'm in the
relationship building industry.
I just happen to be a contractoron the side.
And in this role, it's reallythe truth, right?
Uh constantly building therelationships in and out of
outside of the company.
So I get a lot of uhopportunities to go and spend
time with clients and meet themand solve their problems on the
(05:02):
front end of the constructionproject, and then work with the
team on the inside to reallyhone in on resolving the issues
that we're facing outside thecompany.
So it's different every day, uh,getting an estimate, uh, getting
to work on some of themarketing, but also really hone
in on the business developmentand and being that that
specialty contractor, that tradepartner that people uh love and
(05:25):
respect and want to keep comingback to.
SPEAKER_01 (05:27):
So in the early days of your career, I would imagine
you were probably more out onsite on projects and things like
that, maybe more often than youare today, or do you still do
you still get out to sites veryoften with uh the type of role
that you're in today?
SPEAKER_00 (05:40):
You know, it's it's funny.
I I definitely miss being um ona project site.
I started out uh being at theproject sites, you know,
majority of the time, right?
Jumping in into constructionfrom uh engineering, you know,
the sometimes uh the best way tolearn is jumping in the deep end
and it's sink or swim.
And and really that was theupbringing that I had.
(06:00):
You know, within the firstcouple of weeks, here's a
project, go build it.
You know, being an engineer,it's like, oh my God.
So just relying on on the theexperience and and the
understanding uh that I didn'tknow what I was doing, uh, and
I'd have to go to the experiencethat the people had.
They they knew what they weredoing.
So the old uh the old dogs inthe field, uh the senior project
(06:21):
managers, the guys that reallyhad the time and and talent.
And so I spent a lot of time uhin the field.
Uh I'd asked to turn wrenches,I'd asked to go uh dig holes and
understand how it's built.
So I definitely got to spend alot of time in the field.
And now uh having had thatupbringing and understanding, uh
definitely a lot of respect tothose guys.
Uh they're built different.
(06:42):
Um I I I couldn't do that day inand day out, and I certainly
don't have the the technicalexperience to go and operate
equipment or put pipe in theground on a regular basis.
So my hats off to them.
And being in the office, I Idefinitely love and enjoy every
minute I get to go back to thefield, but I definitely don't do
as much as I'd like to.
SPEAKER_01 (07:01):
Yeah.
Do you uh are there things fromthose days, those early days
that you still think about orthat maybe help guide some of
the things that you're doingtoday in your current role?
SPEAKER_00 (07:10):
I I think back to some of the times where jump
getting out to the project site,seeing a situation where um you
might be a man down.
Uh, you know, one particularinstance, I I was on a job site.
This is early in my career andjust super, super young.
And there was a small crew we'reputting in some water pipe for
JEA, it's a local utility outhere.
And one of the guys was six, soit was an even shorter crew.
(07:32):
And I and I earned the respectand admiration for the guys on
that on that crew and team andjumped out, uh, went and put
some pipe in place, uh, made theconnection, even though the
weather started getting bad.
And and really the takeaway fromthat is uh you're not above
service.
Service is is is getting out ofthe truck and doing what's right
and taking care of the guys, uh,regardless of position, of
title, of, of, of anything.
(07:54):
It's being being a value add tothe team there and being able to
serve them.
And it was it was a greatexperience.
I learned a lot and learned whatnot to do in certain situations.
Pinched my finger a few timesand and got dirty and muddy, and
it was great.
It was a great experience.
But learning from those guysthat it is, it really takes grit
uh and it's a lot harder thanthan you think.
SPEAKER_01 (08:14):
Do you think it gives you the respect of the
people out in the field to likeactually be out there or know
that you did that maybe back inthe early days?
Because I, you know, I thinkabout that quite a bit because I
I get the chance to talk withpeople who are either still in
the weeds quite a bit, maybethey're a smaller organization,
so they're always out there onsite and everything.
But I also talk to people whoare 100% in the office.
(08:38):
And it's like I'm always curiousabout that connection between
um, I think I've said thismultiple times on the podcast in
the past, but the suits and theboots, right?
So the people that are out theredoing the work versus the people
in the office and trying to makesure that you have each other's
mutual respect to make thecompany everybody head in the
same direction.
Do you think that's helped you?
SPEAKER_00 (08:56):
Oh my God, absolutely.
Um, especially, especiallynowadays.
You know, in the role that I'min, I I get to work with a lot
of estimators and and peoplethat are just super, super
talented.
But seeing somebody that's gotthe experience of having been in
the field versus not having beenin the field, oh, there's a
stark contrast.
And and it's no no disrespect ordisservice to the people that
(09:17):
don't have that understanding,but they've seen how it gets put
in place.
They have a better uh idea andconcept of how the work is to be
put in place.
So um the people that came fromoperations are are seeing it in
the field day in and day out.
Man, they're better at costing,they're better at building the
estimate and putting ittogether.
And and so seeing that,recognizing that, one of the
(09:37):
things that we try to do isalways push push the people in
the office.
Get out there, go experience it,see how it's put in place, see
what the duration is and and uhget the understanding firsthand
as to what it takes so thatyou're better as an estimator.
SPEAKER_01 (09:51):
You know, we have a lot of uh most of the people who
are listening in are developersand builders.
So we have a lot of, you know, alot on the residential side, but
we've got a mix.
We've got some commercial aswell and mixed use developers
and and uh you know, some of thethings that I like to talk about
and get feedback on is reallythe project process.
And so for those, you know, alot of developers, they're not
gonna do all of the actualdevelopment themselves.
(10:14):
They're gonna maybe manage theproject or they're gonna buy the
dirt or they're gonna buy theland and then they're gonna, you
know, sub it out to somebody.
And so, you know, for you guys,when you go into a project, you
know, what tends to be some ofthe things that developers maybe
miss early on that you know youhave to come in and and
basically uncover for them.
(10:34):
Are there things that arecommonly missed by developers on
projects?
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (10:39):
It it's it's just absolutely yes.
Um, and sometimes it's betterthan than others, and sometimes
it's it's way worse.
But one of the asks is you know,get a contractor's perspective
as early as possible.
Uh and I think that the onething that's really missed is
the involvement of the rightpeople early on.
You know, in in the sitedevelopment world, we we don't
(11:00):
see a lot of um uh design buildor construction manager at risk
or progressive design bill.
So there's not a lot of a lot ofdifferent means of of
contracting out there.
So you're seeing the ownercollaborate with engineers and
then bring in uh the contractorat a later date, and they didn't
really have that opportunity todo the VE or the
constructability reviews.
Um, but on the public side, oreven the public private venture
(11:23):
or some of the projects thatI've seen in the past, not
development-wise, they have thatrelationship and those projects
take off, and they're so welloiled and well-managed and well
done.
There's just such a starkcontrast.
And you can really see it too onthe projects where the developer
has involved a contractor orthey have involved an entity
(11:46):
that can provide theconstructability and the
reviews, and it's just a betterroute.
It really is.
SPEAKER_01 (11:51):
Yeah, there's I mean, there's so many steps in
the process, right, for the forthe developers when they're
they're obviously you knowstarting out on the acquisition
side, trying to find a piece ofland that's gonna maybe work for
the project they're trying todo, making sure that their pro
forma is gonna fit and and allthat.
But when they're going throughthe pro forma process, I would
imagine before they go andactually buy it, they should be
having some of theseconversations, even with the
(12:13):
contractors like you're talkingabout, because maybe something's
going to be more difficult thanthey think, or maybe something
that engineering you know puttogether is not gonna be not
gonna go exactly the way thatengineering thinks it's gonna
go.
Is that kind of what what yousee sometimes?
SPEAKER_00 (12:27):
Oh, for sure.
Definitely sometimes it's ohwell, why is why is the utility
size this particular size andthis this run?
Or you know, we we've got a casebe where we you know don't
necessarily need to have a caseB crossing, or um, there's
definitely nuances that we seeas contractors and think that's
kind of odd, especially whenwe're getting the job and we
didn't get involved in the frontend.
(12:49):
And it could have beenprevented.
There could have been a nicecost savings or it could have
been a time savings.
Uh and and with developers, youknow, time is money, right?
So how how cool would it be toget those key players involved
earlier, save the time, save themoney, and get it built the
right way the first time beforeyou're even out there building
(13:10):
it physically?
SPEAKER_01 (13:11):
Yeah, I you know, I don't know if I've ever asked
this question before, but I amkind of curious about it.
Do you and this may be somethingjust more local to Jacksonville
there, but what percentage ofdevelopers are more vertically
integrated to the point wherethey do all the construction and
everything themselves versussubbing it out?
Like it feels like most sub itout, but do you do you have a
(13:31):
feel for that?
SPEAKER_00 (13:32):
If I had to give up percentage, I'd probably say few
to none.
I mean, maybe maybe fivepercent.
Uh it's a it's a rare thing tosee a fully integrated group go
and do that.
I definitely think there's someadvantages to it.
But there's there's something tobe said about a group that is
not vertically integrated, thatis outside the realm of that
company, that's got theunderstanding and and they they
(13:53):
know the marketplace and have abetter rapport with not just
that developer, but a wholebunch of developers.
And the guy that has uh a bunchof experience from a bunch of
different places makes him ajack of all trades and very,
very valuable when it comes tocertain things.
You know, you might have uh aguy that's got 40 years of
experience and and a whole bunchof people coming in and and
(14:15):
trying to resolve a problem, butthat one guy that uh could come
in with a different perspectivebecause he worked with a
different developer on adifferent job, it's seeing that
same thing could could be anopportunity.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:27):
Do you see uh when people when people are looking
for a contractor to partnerwith, I think that's uh
obviously just as big of adecision as picking the right
engineer partner, picking, youknow, all the different partners
that you're gonna have along inthis project.
And maybe it's a developer doingtheir first project and they
want to find that rightcontractor.
(14:47):
What are some things that theyshould be asking the contractor
or what type of research shouldthey be doing on the contractor
to make sure that I mean, it'snever 100% guaranteed you're
gonna pick the right one, butwhat are what are some of those
things they can do to try toreduce that risk?
SPEAKER_00 (15:01):
Yeah, uh great, great question.
I I I love that perspective.
Getting a contractor'sperspective or opinion or
understanding as early on aspossible sometimes is the task.
You might have one or twoinvolved.
You know, I would challenge anyany owner or developer, get get
a contractor involved early.
See what they think, right?
If you're in the the napkin uhdrawing phase of a project, what
(15:26):
do they think?
What are the means and methods?
Uh, how are they looking at it?
Have conversations early on, notunder contract, to see what what
kind of contractor they are.
Are they gonna go into theWii's?
Are they gonna provide valueearly on when they're not under
contract?
Um, are they focused in ingetting the work and just
(15:47):
getting a contract?
Are they really therelationship-driven contractor
that's that's more concernedabout the long-term relationship
versus the short-term initialcontract?
The guys that that want thelong-term relationship, they're
gonna get contracts over andover and over, but they're also
gonna dig in early on, providethe value without having the
(16:08):
benefit.
So we love to see contractors,including ourselves, get
involved and solve problemsbefore having a contract.
Um, it's a relationship, and therelationship ship is you know,
pay dividends later on.
SPEAKER_01 (16:19):
What's the expectation to the developer in
those situations when you're notunder contract with a
contracting group?
Is there an expectation thatyou're still gonna pay them
something for their time?
Is it like a time and materialsdeal?
Or is this the contractorsbasically knowing that they're
gonna give some of their time totry to win the contract up
front?
Like what's the expectation tothe developer in that point?
SPEAKER_00 (16:41):
You know, you know, I really think it depends,
right?
It depends how how therelationship is evolved.
You know, if if we're trying toget a relationship with the
client, obviously we want to doas much as we possibly can and
build that relationship andunderstanding and give them a
feel good of what we do, how wedo it, and why we do it, uh, and
get it get that repeatexpectation over and over and
(17:02):
over.
We don't have the expectationthat we're gonna get paid for
it.
I can certainly understand thata lot of contractors do, and and
great, I I believe in it.
Uh, I believe that there shouldbe sort of uh some front-end
compensation for the time andeffort put into it.
But at the same time, you know,it it is a two-way street and it
is a relationship.
So if both parties are trying toget the opportunity to go hard
(17:26):
and and get it to go, uh bothteams are gonna ask in the ink.
They should both be resolvingthe problem, coming up with
solutions and trying to get itto ink, and then go and talk
about the money aspect.
SPEAKER_01 (17:38):
Well, I I I want to look at the flip side of that
too, because I I think just asmuch as a developer is
interviewing the contractinggroup to decide who to hire for
a particular project, thecontracting groups in most
cases, I mean, unless they'redesperate for work or whatever,
they're gonna be alsointerviewing the developer to
(17:58):
understand if it's a group theywant to even do work with.
Like, are they good, is it agood group to actually work
with?
And so, you know, from yourperspective, when you're looking
at a developer partner, yeah,what are some of the things
you're looking for so that thedevelopers listening in can know
how they themselves can be agood partner of a contracting
group?
SPEAKER_00 (18:16):
Coming in on the early stages, right?
Um, what's the level ofcommitment?
Are they committed?
You know, are they gonna walk,are they gonna talk the talk and
then walk the walk?
So are they showing up in force?
Um, are they having a quickturnaround response time?
Is the ask to the contractorreasonable?
Yes, time is of the essence andtime is money.
Certainly, that's an underunderstandable concept for us to
(18:38):
get and understand.
However, does it mean that wehave to sit there and turn out
budgets and and proposals overand over and over prior to the
deal inking?
There's got to be some sort ofreasonable logic to it.
So, what's the turnaround time?
How often and the frequency withwhich we're doing that, uh, we
don't want to just be a quotingservice.
(18:58):
Um, so having the relationshipand and building that rapport to
where it's both parties aren'tfeeling like they're being taken
advantage of.
Um so you certainly have todance a little bit.
But also having, you know, realopen, honest conversations.
Sometimes you gotta you gottatalk about the the elephant in
the room.
Sometimes there are somedeadlines that are difficult and
(19:20):
tough to meet.
But if we're not making bothparties aware, how can you go
and solve that problem?
You know, I I've been in inmany, many rooms and
conversations to where we'rehaving a great meeting and and
have some understanding, but allof a sudden, outside of the
meeting, the the script isflipped and there's some
information that was withheld.
Oh, we need something sooner, oroh, the the it could be the you
(19:42):
know, financial aspect of theproject wasn't discussed or
brought about or wasn't quitetruthful.
And then there's a different uhunderstanding of of where the
project stands.
So just have the openconversation.
Where where are you really onthe funding aspect, uh, on the
design aspect, are thechallenges or or the issues?
Uh it shouldn't be apartnership.
SPEAKER_01 (20:03):
What are the things that might bring a relationship
to an end?
Like if if uh in situationswhere, and I obviously you don't
need to give any examples of itnecessarily with names or
anything like that, but likewhat are the situations where
you might have to like fire acustomer of saying, you know
what, this it's just not gonnawork out?
Is it literally the lack ofcommunication or you know,
(20:24):
misleading conversations, youknow, bringing up things that
aren't really, you know, it'snot as far as long as they said,
and they're kind of stringingyou along.
Is that when things might haveto, you know, split apart um at
that point?
SPEAKER_00 (20:34):
Yeah, there's definitely some truth to that
statement.
Uh, I'd agree.
Uh, you know, I think it reallydepends, right?
There's so many different waysyou can you can cut the cake and
in that instance, majority ofthe time you'd hope that no
relationship is unsavable.
Uh, but yeah, there's absolutelysituations where there's no ROI.
And and the truth is, no matter,you know, uh if you want to talk
(20:55):
about it or not, is that we'reall in this industry to make
money, right?
We're here to make a profit.
We're here to to have thebusiness grow and and develop
and you know, go home at eachand every night and have a good
day, have a profitable day.
There might be tough days, youknow, in between, but if there's
no ROI at some point in time,then what are we doing?
So, yes, there's there'sinstances where, you know, if
(21:17):
we're again, we're just aquoting service, the contractor
is probably not gonna want to beinvolved.
And and that's tough, right?
So you I think most people havethe understanding that you're
gonna have to quote and quoteunquote and and earn the
business and get the business.
But it's also knowing yourclient, right?
If the bottom dollar speaks morethan than the value added,
(21:39):
sometimes you gotta look at itfrom a different perspective or
light in order to get thebusiness.
If it's if it's lowest value,know your client better so that
you're also not going in withthe wrong expectation.
Uh and if if the expectation isconstantly changing, then yeah,
the the partnership could be atrisk of of getting destroyed.
SPEAKER_01 (21:57):
So with you being more on the pre-construction
side.
Do you I guess what what is yourinvolvement look like throughout
the project?
Right.
If let's say, you know, they'rethe project, you're on the
pre-construction side, right?
And then the project actuallykicks off, do you kind of drop
off the project at that point?
SPEAKER_00 (22:15):
I I would I would love to say yes, but but the
relationship aspect of ofconstruction never ends.
It doesn't just terminate at thepoint that the project team
takes over and and you're takenoff.
Yeah you you have to maintainconsistent touch points
throughout the entirety of theproject.
But the frequency with withwhich that happens is not going
to be every week or every daylike it was in the
(22:36):
pre-construction side.
It might be a monthly touchpoint and check in how are
things going?
How are our teams doing butalways having the interface with
the client to be a resource tobe a value add.
Because again at the end of theday the job isn't not done until
the until the final check's beencollected you get the CEO and
everybody's happy and money's inthe bank.
(22:58):
So build that relationshipcontinue to have the touch
points with the clients andserve them from start to finish.
SPEAKER_01 (23:03):
Yeah and the and the reason I was asking that too is
because I wanted to get yourperspective on you know what are
some of the early warning signsof potential problems on a
project, right?
That you might you might have toget a little more involved right
because you you teed up theproject and uh now you have
maybe this uh this clientreaching back out to you about
(23:24):
something what what are some ofthe warning signs that maybe
developers could look for on onprojects potentially
communication is probably thebiggest one right I and if
there's ineffectivecommunication you know most of
the time I get involved.
SPEAKER_00 (23:38):
And it could be a misunderstanding or or just
truly poor communication or theor the lack thereof.
So keeping a pulse on on howoften communication's occurring
what kind of communication thatis who's involved those are all
super important factors butkeeping your finger on the pulse
with how the project's goingsometimes it can get derailed
(24:01):
really quickly because there'sno no observation or or
monitoring going on.
And sometimes the the the rightpeople even though there's the
best intentions don't click wellit could be a an owner and a
contractor maybe the the the twopeople from each each party just
don't work well together.
So is there an opportunity forthem to to collaborate
(24:23):
differently or or have adifferent person connect and and
communicate with them to wherethe the relationship's a little
bit better off that that couldbe um a key there but you know
typically the the early warningsigns are no communication a
misunderstanding of expectationsso if if both parties aren't
(24:44):
coming to the table and havingan expectations conversation
prior to the job startinggenerally I would say you're
probably going to start offwrong, right?
Somebody's not gonna you knowhave the same understanding
during the job as they did tothe to the start of the job.
And with us uh I've certainlybeen uh a a shining example of
(25:05):
what not to do we hand off aproject for example we hand off
a project we have theconversation with the the build
team on on what to do what wascovered what was not covered you
know all the nuances that youthink you have conveyed and and
now they're set up for successand then they go and they start
building the project and whatwe've conveyed to the client is
(25:25):
what we understood to be thesame that we conveyed to our our
build teams but sometimesinformation's left out
unintentionally or we're notteeing the two of them up to
have that same understanding andscope conversation and and there
could be challenges that arisefrom that.
So early change orders not agood sign.
(25:46):
Poor communication breakdown nota good sign I think schedule
slippage immediately is is ahuge red flag.
SPEAKER_01 (25:54):
Are we not communicating why so some those
are are probably some of thebiggest ones that I would say
that we need to be mindful ofand watch that for should
developers do you thinkdevelopers as they're kind of
working through some of theinitial expectation setting and
everything that thatcommunication whatever the
recurring communication is tolike just make sure that it's on
(26:14):
the table and everybodyunderstands whatever that looks
like and I don't even know whatit looks like in these projects
whether it's a a weekly reportthat gets sent out or or
whatever gets sent so that waythere is an expectation for all
parties that hey this is what Iexpect to see as far as like
telling me where the project'sat at this frequency and if that
stops happening then obviouslythey you know some somebody's
(26:36):
dropping the ball somewhere isthat the type of thing that you
think developers should makesure is uh established before
the project starts absolutelyit's establish a a cadence early
on of of what success looks likeright talk about it what what
does success look like uh initerative measures right so or
in increative measures are weare we gonna talk about what
success looks like in the next30 days let's do it right now um
(26:58):
so for the next 30 days we knowthat the project any given
project typically has a ramp upperiod and then you know a
plateau and then ramps down someof the the highest and most
difficult effort is always inthe front end of the job.
Well if we can set up theexpectation for for what those
those targeted milestones wouldwould tentatively be uh and
(27:21):
discuss them early on then wecan we can have a beneficial
relationship and and goodconversation and you know so tee
it up what what does successlook like for the first 30 days
all right what does success looklike for the next 30 days does
the initial meeting cadence forthe first 90 days need to be
every week every other week it'sgonna be different for every
every partnership and everyevery project but the more
(27:44):
people in the project site andthe more moving pieces the more
I'd I'd recommend let's havemore frequent uh touch points on
a regular basis maybe do a aweekly touch point uh establish
a cadence set up the theexpectations for success success
and make sure that you're you'rehitting those milestones well
let's uh let's talk through whenthe contracting company does not
(28:07):
um live up to those expectationsand how what's the what's the
best way a developer shouldreach out to them obviously
they're you know you need to doit in a tactful way to not mess
up the relationship but whatwhat's the best way you think a
developer can reach out to thecontracting company and say and
basically let them know like heywe agreed to this and this isn't
happening.
SPEAKER_00 (28:26):
Honest conversations are are most often not going to
be the easiest ones, right?
But being truthful and and openabout it.
Coming to the table early onthat would be huge.
And sometimes it's just naturalright you know early on in my
career I'd be havingconversations at the project
level right being a projectmanager I'm talking to my
(28:46):
superintendent, talking to thefield personnel this is what's
going on with the project andthen communicating upward the
chin up the Chinek man, right?
What the the Chinnockman on myside typically understood or
heard might not be the exactsame thing that they're hearing
from uh the client.
And so it would be imperativethat the client if they're
(29:07):
really having a difficult timeif there's red flags or there's
challenges or there's aviolation of the contract or or
any condition that really meansthat we should get together, go
direct, right?
Get get the contractor involvedas quickly as possible.
You don't you never want todelay and let it drag on and
then you're talking money.
(29:27):
If you're experiencing an issuelet's talk about that issue
immediately.
All right what is a contractorgoing to do to prevent that
issue in the future and how canwe as a team resolve it
together?
I think the tactone deliveryTTDs is huge.
So sometimes it's it's gonna beuh direct and forward or
sometimes it's gonna be heyhere's some of the the issues
(29:47):
that we're experiencing and howcan we resolve together it
depends on on the relationshipbut do it as quickly as you can
don't wait don't delay do youhave any projects over the years
that have been your favorite touh work on I've had a couple
yeah I've I've definitely had aa few I had a pipeline project
that was probably one of myfavorites just because I had
never done anything like itbefore a hammering project with
(30:09):
with utility going underneaththe road so not a not a jack and
more not a you know directionaldrill but literally hammering a
pipe um through the roadway itwas the coolest thing I'd ever
seen when was that was that likeearly on in your career uh it's
probably five years ago fourfour and a half years ago okay
so not too bad um we got toexperience some really cool
(30:30):
things and now I'm in a in aposition to where I don't get to
manage it or or have directinvolvement but getting to see
the the team experience itdirectly is is super cool.
SPEAKER_01 (30:41):
Yeah well I I have one one other thing I want to
talk about really quick beforewe jump into the last uh segment
which is the lightning round sobefore we get into the lightning
round um I did want to bring upone thing mainly because and we
talked about this before wepressed record but you know we
for the last year we've beenpartnered with Ladies in Land
and uh we you know the ladies inland founder also started dudes
(31:04):
in development so you know theguys side of things and so we
are naturally a partner of dudesin development as well and so
you've been involved in thatorganization in the Jacksonville
area and I just wanted to getyour um initial thoughts about
you know what is theorganization and then just also
what's your experience been likewith the organization so far.
SPEAKER_00 (31:22):
Man I I don't have anything but good things to say
about the organization uh bothsides of the fence both for for
the ladies and the men in theindustry I got involved uh early
on uh on the ladies side early2025 and and got asked to speak
at an engagement and sponsor andlearn about the organization and
what it was doing to benefit thewomen uh and it's phenomenal
right mentorship and and andteaching and bringing awareness
(31:46):
to the entirety of the industryabout what is actually happening
so you might you might be adeveloper and not know about XYZ
well let's let's bridge that gapand and train and mentor and and
develop the individual across uhthe industry and so for me when
I got tapped by Erica and andasked to to kind of lead the
(32:08):
Jacksonville marketplace it itwas a no-brainer yes for selfish
reasons but more so for for themen in the industry right um
I've always uh been acutelyaware of of some of the gaps
that exist because of theshortcomings that I had growing
up and the things that I didn'tget to experience.
So I'd love to be you know atool so to speak for
Jacksonville for the people inthe industry that uh I missed
(32:30):
out on.
So I'd love to mentor anddevelop and train and bring
awareness to the industry andreally speak life to you know
the next generation of ofprofessionals.
And so love being involved wasan easy yes for me.
So I I think we just had one ofour first uh meetings last month
(32:51):
we've got our second uh meet uphere at the end of June and our
third early July and getting tosee the men in the industry is
is huge.
Uh building the relationships ishuge and I'm I'm definitely
excited to see what it brings toJacksonville.
SPEAKER_01 (33:03):
And I think one of the big things for me and I
think I've mentioned this on aprior podcast but um I'm very
much opposed to like identitypolitics and everything like
that.
And I remember talking to Ericain the beginning and it's like
when we were talking about theladies in Landside and I said
hey I'm all about likepartnering on this but I need to
understand the organization alittle bit more and like what
it's all about and everything.
(33:24):
And we were very much in syncabout it's not about getting
women in the industry and givingthem jobs because they're women
it's about educating women tomake them understand that it's
these are careers that they cangrow into and they basically get
the knowledge and build theskills to be able to earn these
positions.
And it's the same same thing onthe men's side right with with
(33:45):
dudes in development.
And so when we talked about thatand that was the understanding
of it's like all right perfect.
That's I'm all about that I'mall about earning the the
meritocracy and earning yourrole whatever that role is going
to be and so um I think forpeople listening in who are not
familiar with them that's verymuch um how the organizations
are are structured and and howthey operate.
It's not it's not uh you knowone of these other organizations
(34:07):
that you might see that is doingthings different to that to
where it's just it's about theidentity of the of the group.
SPEAKER_00 (34:14):
Yeah yeah well said and and I think what's so cool
to see is is just the theeducation focus and the focused
on the individual versus asocial aspect or a social
organization.
So uh hats off to Erica and whatshe's built and the opportunity
that she's presented to me andmany other uh ambassadors that
get to lead the marketplacesaround the country and um it's
(34:35):
phenomenal.
SPEAKER_01 (34:36):
Agree.
So for those of you listening inon the the guys out there
there's uh be on the lookout forsome of these chapters opening
up around the country um overtime you can you can connect
with that and I'm not even sureif there's a dudes in
development website out therebut in development.com yes sir
okay there you go so you guyscan check that out out there and
uh see if there's a chaptercoming to you sometime soon and
(34:57):
and get involved with that butwith that said let's go ahead
and shift into the last segmentwhich is the lightning round so
I've got five questions for youall related to your experience
uh first one what's one thingevery project needs more of oh
my god I don't I've never hadthat question um what does it
need more of more wisdom I thinkmore wisdom there's there's been
(35:18):
a lot of projects that I've hadthe opportunity to be involved
in and I saw that there wasinexperience across the board in
all positions and levels and andI think the awareness that
brought to me was hey it's it'scrucial that we fill that gap uh
and that void that we'recurrently experiencing in the
industry with wisdom right westill need to have authority
(35:41):
that has the wisdom andunderstanding of what's being
done why it's being done so thatit can be done correctly in the
future so making sure that we'renot uh gonna fill the gap with
uneducation, inexperience andgreen horns that could be that
could be disastrous.
Yeah.
So it's almost like when wetalked about earlier with your
first experience of kind of justbeing thrown thrown in and
(36:03):
trying to figure things out butit's less about you still want
people to be thrown in andfigure things out but you've got
to have the structure there sothat the mentors with that
experience are going to beinvolved to a certain degree to
make sure that uh that wisdomand knowledge is there.
Absolutely absolutely perfect.
All right second one what's thebiggest mistake that you see
(36:25):
often made duringpre-construction?
SPEAKER_00 (36:27):
Lack of communication or the assumption
or presumption that everythingis is hunky dory and good to go.
Sometimes the biggest problemsare the ones that you don't talk
about and you're not aware of uhagain kind of talking about the
expectation conversation rightit's really easy to sit there
and and and give the lowestdollar value uh as a contractor
right if that's what the ownerwants they want the lowest
(36:49):
dollar value we're gonna we'regonna make our our proposal
appear low but are we reallydigging into the details and
seeing it that it's apples toapples or it's not so um we need
to be cautious and and and awareof that for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (37:04):
All right I got to dig into that a little bit more
because the uh one one thingthat made me think of is you
know you get you can get such awide range of bids from
different companies andsometimes when you get those
really low ones I've heard somehorror stories of companies you
know bidding really low but thenthere's a lot of nickel and
diming that happens throughoutthe project with uh I think like
(37:27):
the change orders and thingsthat have to happen and next
thing you know they bid reallylow to get the job but at the
end of it they ended up payingmore than what some of the other
bids were from some of the othercontractors.
How do you as a developer how doyou look out for that or how do
you make sure that they're thebid is real and that it includes
everything.
SPEAKER_00 (37:46):
I I oh man love great topic love that you asked
this ask the questions rightwe're in an industry that
there's a there's a lot ofrespect and people are people
have integrity and there's a lotof respect for people to have
the integrity.
But there's also and it's sadthat we we're we're in an
industry that we we do see thisfrom time to time where there is
(38:08):
no integrity.
People are going to do the wrongthing and they want to get the
job for the wrong reasons rightthey're gonna get it low they're
gonna cut corners and and weneed to have integrity in this
industry and make sure that wedon't cut corners.
So how do we do that?
Price it the right way and Ihate to say it uh developers you
got to ask the questions to makesure that each contractor is
pricing it the right wayunsuitable soils and strippings
(38:28):
what are we doing withunsuitables and soils and
strippings is the contractoradding value and and reading the
geotechnical report and seeingyeah strippings are not suitable
they have to be exported offsite or disposed of the right
way.
I've heard and seen contractorsput unsuitables and strippings
in places that are not meant forunsuitables and strippings and
(38:50):
that's an integrity issue.
That's that's a huge problem butit also it causes concerns and
issues with the development at aat a future point in time.
Some of the other things thatyou experience is is just you
know lack of scope or missingscope.
We can easily exclude pricing onthings that you're maybe not
aware of all right like proofrolling or you know pond lining
(39:11):
we're gonna take this out notinclude this.
And so you can have theappearance of being low but do
you really have all the partsand pieces that is fully
required for the scope ofservices and it might not be to
anybody's demise or or or illintention it could just be that
we're not having theconversation you know in in the
(39:32):
contractor's mind they're gonnaprice as low as they can with as
little as they can uh and thenanother contractor comes in and
says we're gonna add as muchvalue and price everything and
and now that you have a hugedisparity between the high
number and the low number butthere's also a huge scope gap
and nobody's talking about that.
Face value they see the lownumber they see the high number
and they exclude the high numberand we we need to we need to do
(39:54):
a better job of having thoseconversations understanding why
and not just level it onquantities.
I think that's a that's an easyway to get in trouble if we look
at an SOV breakout from acontractor and compare it to
another contractor yeah we canprobably have similar quantities
and you can probably see thedollar differences well most
people I feel are looking at itand saying no it's just the
(40:16):
dollars that are different.
No it's the scope the scope isgoing to be the huge issue.
The dollars are pointing to theissue and the scope but let's
have the conversation about whyit's so different.
SPEAKER_01 (40:27):
Nice.
Well I'm glad you explained thatand I I think it's one of those
things where yeah you don't youdon't always get you don't
always get bids that come backthat are apples to apples.
I mean they're they're just notthey don't include the same the
same thing.
So um yeah makes sense.
SPEAKER_00 (40:40):
All right uh third one what's a red flag you
immediately pay attention to ona project lack of design uh or
or design conflicts so is thegeotechnical report in direct
conflict with the plans theproduct plans um is page one of
the plans drastically differentthan page two are some of some
(41:03):
of the details uh misleadingright it's a huge red flag we
didn't do our due diligencereview but not only that if if
you as a developer owner tellingme that this is this is our
final bidding um bid for thisone we're gonna go to contract
but as a contractor we canclearly see this is probably
(41:23):
60-90% you you need to put somemore effort into this because if
you contract on this you'regonna have complications later
on and change orders and thingsof that nature.
So red flag resolve the issuewith some of the discrepancies
do some more due diligencereview the plans better make
sure that all the documentsalign and and aren't in conflict
(41:44):
with one another.
SPEAKER_01 (41:45):
Alright fourth one what's the best lesson the field
has ever taught you this mightbe from the early days.
SPEAKER_00 (41:51):
Yeah probably I I think I talk talked on this in
another podcast but it stillholds true is you don't know
what you don't know.
Right?
And that's okay.
You might have the presumptionthat you know how something's
put in but when you go out thereand actually see it put in or
feel it and do it yourself,you're gonna have a completely
different understanding of ofthe effort that it takes to go
(42:12):
and do the work or how it'sgetting performed.
So from the field's perspectiveyou don't know what you don't
know and boy have I had somerude awakenings uh thinking I I
knew oh it's gonna take X amountof time to go and do this and
cost this amount but then I goout in the field and I see that
the conditions are different andit's wet and soupy and you got
(42:33):
to do dewatering and it's it'shard work and there's there's no
shortcut to hard work.
You gotta do the work.
So you don't know what you don'tknow and until you figure out
what you don't know ask thequestions.
Right?
SPEAKER_01 (42:46):
Constantly be curious and inquisitive yeah I
think the ignorance that we havethat we look back on in prior
you know the prior years of ourlife and we look back and you
you just sit there and you'relike man I can't believe I did
that or I can't believe Ithought that or I can't believe
it's just amazing how ignorantwe are like even even at this
moment in time and probably fiveyears I'll look back at this
(43:07):
moment in time and think abouthow ignorant I was about
something because you're justconstantly evolving and growing
and stuff and there's just yeahyou don't know you don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (43:15):
It's just uh yeah all right let's see last one
here what's the best piece ofadvice you've ever received in
your career best piece of advicekind of going back to that don't
you don't know if you don't knownever stop growing there's
there's never the doors willnever open for you unless you
come knocking so uh askquestions seek wise counsel
(43:38):
continue to learn uh becausethose that stop learning get
left behind be eager to learnyou know slow to speak quick to
listen because you wanna youwant to be that person at the
table that doesn't necessarilyknow everything but you're gonna
suck up the information learnand be able to resolve a problem
later down the road.
SPEAKER_01 (43:57):
All right well that brings us to a close here what's
the uh best way for people toconnect with you and also learn
more about your company yeah goonline to uh
pettycoachschmidt.com uh or youcan connect with me on LinkedIn
Charles Toffrey uh on LinkedInalternatively uh go on
dudesanddevelopment.com uh inthe circle community with dudes
and development I've got myprofile there and I've got my
(44:20):
email and cell phone number onthere so we'd love to connect uh
would love to meet you and havea conversation build a
relationship right at the end ofthe day we're here to do that
and would love to meet you andand understand what you guys do.
Perfect.
And don't mess up his last namelike I did you've heard it now
multiple times pronounced theright way.
So yeah don't don't mess it up.
Well I if you guys look in thedescription for this episode
(44:42):
there will be a link there tothe show notes page and on the
show notes page will be all thelinks that were just mentioned
by Charles there.
So check that out connect withCharles uh check out dudes in
development and check outPeticoach and uh yeah again
really appreciate you hopping onhere and if you guys are not
already subscribed please clickthat button we'd love to have
you back for the next oneotherwise we will talk to you
(45:03):
all next week thanks Robin
You know, I would challenge any owner or
developer, get a contractorinvolved early, see what they
think, right?
If you're in the napkin drawingphase of a project, what do they
think?
What are the means and methods?
How are they looking at it?
Have conversations early on, notunder contract, to see what kind
of contractor they are.
Are they going to go into theweeds?
(00:20):
Are they going to provide valueearly on when they're not under
contract?
SPEAKER_01 (00:38):
Hey, what's going on, everybody?
Welcome back to the LandDevelopment Podcast.
I am your host, Ryan Glick.
We have an interview episode foryou today, and joining me is
Charles Tuffery.
Did I say that right?
Tofferi.
Dang it.
I messed it up.
We just talked about it and Imessed it up in the intro.
Tofferi.
And uh Charles is the VP ofsales, marketing, and
(00:59):
pre-construction at PetticoatSmith Civil Contractors.
Charles, thanks for joining me.
SPEAKER_00 (01:03):
I appreciate you having me on board here.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (01:05):
Man, I can't believe I really messed up that intro
just like that.
You know, messing up your lastname.
SPEAKER_00 (01:10):
No, it's you're not you're not the first.
You're not gonna be the last.
You know, 99% of people get itwrong.
So no worries.
SPEAKER_01 (01:16):
Yeah, well, I appreciate that.
Well, let's uh let's get intoyour background here to start
out with.
So you it looks like you startedas an engineer and project
manager.
And uh and I'm just curious whatbrought you into the
construction and infrastructureside?
SPEAKER_00 (01:32):
Uh great question.
It's totally unexpected, right?
So uh went to high school, youknow, was planning on being a
DOD contractor, you know,designing weapons, being in the
military, something related tothe DOD, right?
Uh so went to the University ofAlabama, got my uh engineering
degree in mechanicalengineering, went and worked for
a uh chemical manufacturingcompany and realized I'm not a
(01:55):
huge fan of engineering as muchas I thought.
And there was an opportunity inJacksonville to get back home
and be in the constructionspace.
I'd always been fond of it.
I grew up around it, so I wasnot unfamiliar to it uh and
absolutely jumped at theopportunity.
Get back into the industry, getback into building and and
developing something, and fellin love with it.
(02:16):
So definitely not expected whenI graduated to to be in
construction, but uh as Iprogressed in in my my career, I
realized that this was reallyhome.
This is where I was meant to beall along.
SPEAKER_01 (02:27):
So you think was it more of a location thing?
You wanted to like did you wantto get back to the location
first and then you pickedconstruction, or was it
construction that brought youback to your home?
SPEAKER_00 (02:37):
Construction really brought me back home.
You know, I I went to I went toAlabama trying to get away from
Jacksonville, trying to get awayfrom home.
And the the longer and longer Istayed away from home, the more
I felt compelled and pulled tocome back to Jacksonville.
But it really wasn't until I Igot into the real world and and
into a different industry andstarted working.
Maybe I made the wrong careerchoice in in doing something
(03:00):
that I thought I'd really like.
Uh and and just so happens, youknow, we all gravitate towards
something that's natural andfeels good.
Jacksonville was natural.
I had family there, I hadfriends there.
And there was something about asafety net being back home to
where you can really startsomething new, something fresh,
and have the support of thecommunity around you.
Um not only that, butJacksonville is freaking
awesome.
You know, you got the beach fromthere, you got you got the
(03:22):
river, and uh so it's it's ahard place to be.
SPEAKER_01 (03:25):
Well, for those who aren't familiar with your
company, um, could you describewhat the company does?
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00 (03:31):
Uh Pettigo Schmidt, we are a heavy civil contractor.
We do water resource uhconstruction, so building new
plants, rehabilitation ofexisting plants, uh, so water,
wastewater, lift stations, pumpstations, wellheads, anything
that uh transports or or um uhhandles the process of water and
wastewater.
(03:51):
So that's just one group.
We do public work, so we dealwith public entities, uh, line
work, roadway construction, uhanything in that sector.
But we also do site developmentin the private space.
So um we do a lot of commercialdevelopment, single family,
multifamily, uh industrial, uh,so heavy development across the
board.
unknown (04:10):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (04:11):
Moving earth or doing utilities, we're all about
it.
And where where do you operateout of?
So we're in Jacksonville,Florida.
Um, we've got one office here inJacksonville.
We will travel up to 300 milesfor all three branches of our
business.
Uh, but really the core focus,um, the public work and the site
development aspect of thebusiness is really within 100
miles of Jacksonville.
SPEAKER_01 (04:32):
Gotcha.
And so your role at the company,um, being you know, on the
sales, marketing,pre-construction side of things,
what does that look like?
SPEAKER_00 (04:39):
It's it's a great opportunity, man.
It's it's different every singleday, and I love it.
You know, one of the things Ilove to say is that I'm in the
relationship building industry.
I just happen to be a contractoron the side.
And in this role, it's reallythe truth, right?
Uh constantly building therelationships in and out of
outside of the company.
So I get a lot of uhopportunities to go and spend
time with clients and meet themand solve their problems on the
(05:02):
front end of the constructionproject, and then work with the
team on the inside to reallyhone in on resolving the issues
that we're facing outside thecompany.
So it's different every day, uh,getting an estimate, uh, getting
to work on some of themarketing, but also really hone
in on the business developmentand and being that that
specialty contractor, that tradepartner that people uh love and
(05:25):
respect and want to keep comingback to.
SPEAKER_01 (05:27):
So in the early days of your career, I would imagine
you were probably more out onsite on projects and things like
that, maybe more often than youare today, or do you still do
you still get out to sites veryoften with uh the type of role
that you're in today?
SPEAKER_00 (05:40):
You know, it's it's funny.
I I definitely miss being um ona project site.
I started out uh being at theproject sites, you know,
majority of the time, right?
Jumping in into constructionfrom uh engineering, you know,
the sometimes uh the best way tolearn is jumping in the deep end
and it's sink or swim.
And and really that was theupbringing that I had.
(06:00):
You know, within the firstcouple of weeks, here's a
project, go build it.
You know, being an engineer,it's like, oh my God.
So just relying on on the theexperience and and the
understanding uh that I didn'tknow what I was doing, uh, and
I'd have to go to the experiencethat the people had.
They they knew what they weredoing.
So the old uh the old dogs inthe field, uh the senior project
(06:21):
managers, the guys that reallyhad the time and and talent.
And so I spent a lot of time uhin the field.
Uh I'd asked to turn wrenches,I'd asked to go uh dig holes and
understand how it's built.
So I definitely got to spend alot of time in the field.
And now uh having had thatupbringing and understanding, uh
definitely a lot of respect tothose guys.
Uh they're built different.
(06:42):
Um I I I couldn't do that day inand day out, and I certainly
don't have the the technicalexperience to go and operate
equipment or put pipe in theground on a regular basis.
So my hats off to them.
And being in the office, I Idefinitely love and enjoy every
minute I get to go back to thefield, but I definitely don't do
as much as I'd like to.
SPEAKER_01 (07:01):
Yeah.
Do you uh are there things fromthose days, those early days
that you still think about orthat maybe help guide some of
the things that you're doingtoday in your current role?
SPEAKER_00 (07:10):
I I think back to some of the times where jump
getting out to the project site,seeing a situation where um you
might be a man down.
Uh, you know, one particularinstance, I I was on a job site.
This is early in my career andjust super, super young.
And there was a small crew we'reputting in some water pipe for
JEA, it's a local utility outhere.
And one of the guys was six, soit was an even shorter crew.
(07:32):
And I and I earned the respectand admiration for the guys on
that on that crew and team andjumped out, uh, went and put
some pipe in place, uh, made theconnection, even though the
weather started getting bad.
And and really the takeaway fromthat is uh you're not above
service.
Service is is is getting out ofthe truck and doing what's right
and taking care of the guys, uh,regardless of position, of
title, of, of, of anything.
(07:54):
It's being being a value add tothe team there and being able to
serve them.
And it was it was a greatexperience.
I learned a lot and learned whatnot to do in certain situations.
Pinched my finger a few timesand and got dirty and muddy, and
it was great.
It was a great experience.
But learning from those guysthat it is, it really takes grit
uh and it's a lot harder thanthan you think.
SPEAKER_01 (08:14):
Do you think it gives you the respect of the
people out in the field to likeactually be out there or know
that you did that maybe back inthe early days?
Because I, you know, I thinkabout that quite a bit because I
I get the chance to talk withpeople who are either still in
the weeds quite a bit, maybethey're a smaller organization,
so they're always out there onsite and everything.
But I also talk to people whoare 100% in the office.
(08:38):
And it's like I'm always curiousabout that connection between
um, I think I've said thismultiple times on the podcast in
the past, but the suits and theboots, right?
So the people that are out theredoing the work versus the people
in the office and trying to makesure that you have each other's
mutual respect to make thecompany everybody head in the
same direction.
Do you think that's helped you?
SPEAKER_00 (08:56):
Oh my God, absolutely.
Um, especially, especiallynowadays.
You know, in the role that I'min, I I get to work with a lot
of estimators and and peoplethat are just super, super
talented.
But seeing somebody that's gotthe experience of having been in
the field versus not having beenin the field, oh, there's a
stark contrast.
And and it's no no disrespect ordisservice to the people that
(09:17):
don't have that understanding,but they've seen how it gets put
in place.
They have a better uh idea andconcept of how the work is to be
put in place.
So um the people that came fromoperations are are seeing it in
the field day in and day out.
Man, they're better at costing,they're better at building the
estimate and putting ittogether.
And and so seeing that,recognizing that, one of the
(09:37):
things that we try to do isalways push push the people in
the office.
Get out there, go experience it,see how it's put in place, see
what the duration is and and uhget the understanding firsthand
as to what it takes so thatyou're better as an estimator.
SPEAKER_01 (09:51):
You know, we have a lot of uh most of the people who
are listening in are developersand builders.
So we have a lot of, you know, alot on the residential side, but
we've got a mix.
We've got some commercial aswell and mixed use developers
and and uh you know, some of thethings that I like to talk about
and get feedback on is reallythe project process.
And so for those, you know, alot of developers, they're not
gonna do all of the actualdevelopment themselves.
(10:14):
They're gonna maybe manage theproject or they're gonna buy the
dirt or they're gonna buy theland and then they're gonna, you
know, sub it out to somebody.
And so, you know, for you guys,when you go into a project, you
know, what tends to be some ofthe things that developers maybe
miss early on that you know youhave to come in and and
basically uncover for them.
(10:34):
Are there things that arecommonly missed by developers on
projects?
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (10:39):
It it's it's just absolutely yes.
Um, and sometimes it's betterthan than others, and sometimes
it's it's way worse.
But one of the asks is you know,get a contractor's perspective
as early as possible.
Uh and I think that the onething that's really missed is
the involvement of the rightpeople early on.
You know, in in the sitedevelopment world, we we don't
(11:00):
see a lot of um uh design buildor construction manager at risk
or progressive design bill.
So there's not a lot of a lot ofdifferent means of of
contracting out there.
So you're seeing the ownercollaborate with engineers and
then bring in uh the contractorat a later date, and they didn't
really have that opportunity todo the VE or the
constructability reviews.
Um, but on the public side, oreven the public private venture
(11:23):
or some of the projects thatI've seen in the past, not
development-wise, they have thatrelationship and those projects
take off, and they're so welloiled and well-managed and well
done.
There's just such a starkcontrast.
And you can really see it too onthe projects where the developer
has involved a contractor orthey have involved an entity
(11:46):
that can provide theconstructability and the
reviews, and it's just a betterroute.
It really is.
SPEAKER_01 (11:51):
Yeah, there's I mean, there's so many steps in
the process, right, for the forthe developers when they're
they're obviously you knowstarting out on the acquisition
side, trying to find a piece ofland that's gonna maybe work for
the project they're trying todo, making sure that their pro
forma is gonna fit and and allthat.
But when they're going throughthe pro forma process, I would
imagine before they go andactually buy it, they should be
having some of theseconversations, even with the
(12:13):
contractors like you're talkingabout, because maybe something's
going to be more difficult thanthey think, or maybe something
that engineering you know puttogether is not gonna be not
gonna go exactly the way thatengineering thinks it's gonna
go.
Is that kind of what what yousee sometimes?
SPEAKER_00 (12:27):
Oh, for sure.
Definitely sometimes it's ohwell, why is why is the utility
size this particular size andthis this run?
Or you know, we we've got a casebe where we you know don't
necessarily need to have a caseB crossing, or um, there's
definitely nuances that we seeas contractors and think that's
kind of odd, especially whenwe're getting the job and we
didn't get involved in the frontend.
(12:49):
And it could have beenprevented.
There could have been a nicecost savings or it could have
been a time savings.
Uh and and with developers, youknow, time is money, right?
So how how cool would it be toget those key players involved
earlier, save the time, save themoney, and get it built the
right way the first time beforeyou're even out there building
(13:10):
it physically?
SPEAKER_01 (13:11):
Yeah, I you know, I don't know if I've ever asked
this question before, but I amkind of curious about it.
Do you and this may be somethingjust more local to Jacksonville
there, but what percentage ofdevelopers are more vertically
integrated to the point wherethey do all the construction and
everything themselves versussubbing it out?
Like it feels like most sub itout, but do you do you have a
(13:31):
feel for that?
SPEAKER_00 (13:32):
If I had to give up percentage, I'd probably say few
to none.
I mean, maybe maybe fivepercent.
Uh it's a it's a rare thing tosee a fully integrated group go
and do that.
I definitely think there's someadvantages to it.
But there's there's something tobe said about a group that is
not vertically integrated, thatis outside the realm of that
company, that's got theunderstanding and and they they
(13:53):
know the marketplace and have abetter rapport with not just
that developer, but a wholebunch of developers.
And the guy that has uh a bunchof experience from a bunch of
different places makes him ajack of all trades and very,
very valuable when it comes tocertain things.
You know, you might have uh aguy that's got 40 years of
experience and and a whole bunchof people coming in and and
(14:15):
trying to resolve a problem, butthat one guy that uh could come
in with a different perspectivebecause he worked with a
different developer on adifferent job, it's seeing that
same thing could could be anopportunity.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:27):
Do you see uh when people when people are looking
for a contractor to partnerwith, I think that's uh
obviously just as big of adecision as picking the right
engineer partner, picking, youknow, all the different partners
that you're gonna have along inthis project.
And maybe it's a developer doingtheir first project and they
want to find that rightcontractor.
(14:47):
What are some things that theyshould be asking the contractor
or what type of research shouldthey be doing on the contractor
to make sure that I mean, it'snever 100% guaranteed you're
gonna pick the right one, butwhat are what are some of those
things they can do to try toreduce that risk?
SPEAKER_00 (15:01):
Yeah, uh great, great question.
I I I love that perspective.
Getting a contractor'sperspective or opinion or
understanding as early on aspossible sometimes is the task.
You might have one or twoinvolved.
You know, I would challenge anyany owner or developer, get get
a contractor involved early.
See what they think, right?
If you're in the the napkin uhdrawing phase of a project, what
(15:26):
do they think?
What are the means and methods?
Uh, how are they looking at it?
Have conversations early on, notunder contract, to see what what
kind of contractor they are.
Are they gonna go into theWii's?
Are they gonna provide valueearly on when they're not under
contract?
Um, are they focused in ingetting the work and just
(15:47):
getting a contract?
Are they really therelationship-driven contractor
that's that's more concernedabout the long-term relationship
versus the short-term initialcontract?
The guys that that want thelong-term relationship, they're
gonna get contracts over andover and over, but they're also
gonna dig in early on, providethe value without having the
(16:08):
benefit.
So we love to see contractors,including ourselves, get
involved and solve problemsbefore having a contract.
Um, it's a relationship, and therelationship ship is you know,
pay dividends later on.
SPEAKER_01 (16:19):
What's the expectation to the developer in
those situations when you're notunder contract with a
contracting group?
Is there an expectation thatyou're still gonna pay them
something for their time?
Is it like a time and materialsdeal?
Or is this the contractorsbasically knowing that they're
gonna give some of their time totry to win the contract up
front?
Like what's the expectation tothe developer in that point?
SPEAKER_00 (16:41):
You know, you know, I really think it depends,
right?
It depends how how therelationship is evolved.
You know, if if we're trying toget a relationship with the
client, obviously we want to doas much as we possibly can and
build that relationship andunderstanding and give them a
feel good of what we do, how wedo it, and why we do it, uh, and
get it get that repeatexpectation over and over and
(17:02):
over.
We don't have the expectationthat we're gonna get paid for
it.
I can certainly understand thata lot of contractors do, and and
great, I I believe in it.
Uh, I believe that there shouldbe sort of uh some front-end
compensation for the time andeffort put into it.
But at the same time, you know,it it is a two-way street and it
is a relationship.
So if both parties are trying toget the opportunity to go hard
(17:26):
and and get it to go, uh bothteams are gonna ask in the ink.
They should both be resolvingthe problem, coming up with
solutions and trying to get itto ink, and then go and talk
about the money aspect.
SPEAKER_01 (17:38):
Well, I I I want to look at the flip side of that
too, because I I think just asmuch as a developer is
interviewing the contractinggroup to decide who to hire for
a particular project, thecontracting groups in most
cases, I mean, unless they'redesperate for work or whatever,
they're gonna be alsointerviewing the developer to
(17:58):
understand if it's a group theywant to even do work with.
Like, are they good, is it agood group to actually work
with?
And so, you know, from yourperspective, when you're looking
at a developer partner, yeah,what are some of the things
you're looking for so that thedevelopers listening in can know
how they themselves can be agood partner of a contracting
group?
SPEAKER_00 (18:16):
Coming in on the early stages, right?
Um, what's the level ofcommitment?
Are they committed?
You know, are they gonna walk,are they gonna talk the talk and
then walk the walk?
So are they showing up in force?
Um, are they having a quickturnaround response time?
Is the ask to the contractorreasonable?
Yes, time is of the essence andtime is money.
Certainly, that's an underunderstandable concept for us to
(18:38):
get and understand.
However, does it mean that wehave to sit there and turn out
budgets and and proposals overand over and over prior to the
deal inking?
There's got to be some sort ofreasonable logic to it.
So, what's the turnaround time?
How often and the frequency withwhich we're doing that, uh, we
don't want to just be a quotingservice.
(18:58):
Um, so having the relationshipand and building that rapport to
where it's both parties aren'tfeeling like they're being taken
advantage of.
Um so you certainly have todance a little bit.
But also having, you know, realopen, honest conversations.
Sometimes you gotta you gottatalk about the the elephant in
the room.
Sometimes there are somedeadlines that are difficult and
(19:20):
tough to meet.
But if we're not making bothparties aware, how can you go
and solve that problem?
You know, I I've been in inmany, many rooms and
conversations to where we'rehaving a great meeting and and
have some understanding, but allof a sudden, outside of the
meeting, the the script isflipped and there's some
information that was withheld.
Oh, we need something sooner, oroh, the the it could be the you
(19:42):
know, financial aspect of theproject wasn't discussed or
brought about or wasn't quitetruthful.
And then there's a different uhunderstanding of of where the
project stands.
So just have the openconversation.
Where where are you really onthe funding aspect, uh, on the
design aspect, are thechallenges or or the issues?
Uh it shouldn't be apartnership.
SPEAKER_01 (20:03):
What are the things that might bring a relationship
to an end?
Like if if uh in situationswhere, and I obviously you don't
need to give any examples of itnecessarily with names or
anything like that, but likewhat are the situations where
you might have to like fire acustomer of saying, you know
what, this it's just not gonnawork out?
Is it literally the lack ofcommunication or you know,
(20:24):
misleading conversations, youknow, bringing up things that
aren't really, you know, it'snot as far as long as they said,
and they're kind of stringingyou along.
Is that when things might haveto, you know, split apart um at
that point?
SPEAKER_00 (20:34):
Yeah, there's definitely some truth to that
statement.
Uh, I'd agree.
Uh, you know, I think it reallydepends, right?
There's so many different waysyou can you can cut the cake and
in that instance, majority ofthe time you'd hope that no
relationship is unsavable.
Uh, but yeah, there's absolutelysituations where there's no ROI.
And and the truth is, no matter,you know, uh if you want to talk
(20:55):
about it or not, is that we'reall in this industry to make
money, right?
We're here to make a profit.
We're here to to have thebusiness grow and and develop
and you know, go home at eachand every night and have a good
day, have a profitable day.
There might be tough days, youknow, in between, but if there's
no ROI at some point in time,then what are we doing?
So, yes, there's there'sinstances where, you know, if
(21:17):
we're again, we're just aquoting service, the contractor
is probably not gonna want to beinvolved.
And and that's tough, right?
So you I think most people havethe understanding that you're
gonna have to quote and quoteunquote and and earn the
business and get the business.
But it's also knowing yourclient, right?
If the bottom dollar speaks morethan than the value added,
(21:39):
sometimes you gotta look at itfrom a different perspective or
light in order to get thebusiness.
If it's if it's lowest value,know your client better so that
you're also not going in withthe wrong expectation.
Uh and if if the expectation isconstantly changing, then yeah,
the the partnership could be atrisk of of getting destroyed.
SPEAKER_01 (21:57):
So with you being more on the pre-construction
side.
Do you I guess what what is yourinvolvement look like throughout
the project?
Right.
If let's say, you know, they'rethe project, you're on the
pre-construction side, right?
And then the project actuallykicks off, do you kind of drop
off the project at that point?
SPEAKER_00 (22:15):
I I would I would love to say yes, but but the
relationship aspect of ofconstruction never ends.
It doesn't just terminate at thepoint that the project team
takes over and and you're takenoff.
Yeah you you have to maintainconsistent touch points
throughout the entirety of theproject.
But the frequency with withwhich that happens is not going
to be every week or every daylike it was in the
(22:36):
pre-construction side.
It might be a monthly touchpoint and check in how are
things going?
How are our teams doing butalways having the interface with
the client to be a resource tobe a value add.
Because again at the end of theday the job isn't not done until
the until the final check's beencollected you get the CEO and
everybody's happy and money's inthe bank.
(22:58):
So build that relationshipcontinue to have the touch
points with the clients andserve them from start to finish.
SPEAKER_01 (23:03):
Yeah and the and the reason I was asking that too is
because I wanted to get yourperspective on you know what are
some of the early warning signsof potential problems on a
project, right?
That you might you might have toget a little more involved right
because you you teed up theproject and uh now you have
maybe this uh this clientreaching back out to you about
(23:24):
something what what are some ofthe warning signs that maybe
developers could look for on onprojects potentially
communication is probably thebiggest one right I and if
there's ineffectivecommunication you know most of
the time I get involved.
SPEAKER_00 (23:38):
And it could be a misunderstanding or or just
truly poor communication or theor the lack thereof.
So keeping a pulse on on howoften communication's occurring
what kind of communication thatis who's involved those are all
super important factors butkeeping your finger on the pulse
with how the project's goingsometimes it can get derailed
(24:01):
really quickly because there'sno no observation or or
monitoring going on.
And sometimes the the the rightpeople even though there's the
best intentions don't click wellit could be a an owner and a
contractor maybe the the the twopeople from each each party just
don't work well together.
So is there an opportunity forthem to to collaborate
(24:23):
differently or or have adifferent person connect and and
communicate with them to wherethe the relationship's a little
bit better off that that couldbe um a key there but you know
typically the the early warningsigns are no communication a
misunderstanding of expectationsso if if both parties aren't
(24:44):
coming to the table and havingan expectations conversation
prior to the job startinggenerally I would say you're
probably going to start offwrong, right?
Somebody's not gonna you knowhave the same understanding
during the job as they did tothe to the start of the job.
And with us uh I've certainlybeen uh a a shining example of
(25:05):
what not to do we hand off aproject for example we hand off
a project we have theconversation with the the build
team on on what to do what wascovered what was not covered you
know all the nuances that youthink you have conveyed and and
now they're set up for successand then they go and they start
building the project and whatwe've conveyed to the client is
(25:25):
what we understood to be thesame that we conveyed to our our
build teams but sometimesinformation's left out
unintentionally or we're notteeing the two of them up to
have that same understanding andscope conversation and and there
could be challenges that arisefrom that.
So early change orders not agood sign.
(25:46):
Poor communication breakdown nota good sign I think schedule
slippage immediately is is ahuge red flag.
SPEAKER_01 (25:54):
Are we not communicating why so some those
are are probably some of thebiggest ones that I would say
that we need to be mindful ofand watch that for should
developers do you thinkdevelopers as they're kind of
working through some of theinitial expectation setting and
everything that thatcommunication whatever the
recurring communication is tolike just make sure that it's on
(26:14):
the table and everybodyunderstands whatever that looks
like and I don't even know whatit looks like in these projects
whether it's a a weekly reportthat gets sent out or or
whatever gets sent so that waythere is an expectation for all
parties that hey this is what Iexpect to see as far as like
telling me where the project'sat at this frequency and if that
stops happening then obviouslythey you know some somebody's
(26:36):
dropping the ball somewhere isthat the type of thing that you
think developers should makesure is uh established before
the project starts absolutelyit's establish a a cadence early
on of of what success looks likeright talk about it what what
does success look like uh initerative measures right so or
in increative measures are weare we gonna talk about what
success looks like in the next30 days let's do it right now um
(26:58):
so for the next 30 days we knowthat the project any given
project typically has a ramp upperiod and then you know a
plateau and then ramps down someof the the highest and most
difficult effort is always inthe front end of the job.
Well if we can set up theexpectation for for what those
those targeted milestones wouldwould tentatively be uh and
(27:21):
discuss them early on then wecan we can have a beneficial
relationship and and goodconversation and you know so tee
it up what what does successlook like for the first 30 days
all right what does success looklike for the next 30 days does
the initial meeting cadence forthe first 90 days need to be
every week every other week it'sgonna be different for every
every partnership and everyevery project but the more
(27:44):
people in the project site andthe more moving pieces the more
I'd I'd recommend let's havemore frequent uh touch points on
a regular basis maybe do a aweekly touch point uh establish
a cadence set up the theexpectations for success success
and make sure that you're you'rehitting those milestones well
let's uh let's talk through whenthe contracting company does not
(28:07):
um live up to those expectationsand how what's the what's the
best way a developer shouldreach out to them obviously
they're you know you need to doit in a tactful way to not mess
up the relationship but whatwhat's the best way you think a
developer can reach out to thecontracting company and say and
basically let them know like heywe agreed to this and this isn't
happening.
SPEAKER_00 (28:26):
Honest conversations are are most often not going to
be the easiest ones, right?
But being truthful and and openabout it.
Coming to the table early onthat would be huge.
And sometimes it's just naturalright you know early on in my
career I'd be havingconversations at the project
level right being a projectmanager I'm talking to my
(28:46):
superintendent, talking to thefield personnel this is what's
going on with the project andthen communicating upward the
chin up the Chinek man, right?
What the the Chinnockman on myside typically understood or
heard might not be the exactsame thing that they're hearing
from uh the client.
And so it would be imperativethat the client if they're
(29:07):
really having a difficult timeif there's red flags or there's
challenges or there's aviolation of the contract or or
any condition that really meansthat we should get together, go
direct, right?
Get get the contractor involvedas quickly as possible.
You don't you never want todelay and let it drag on and
then you're talking money.
(29:27):
If you're experiencing an issuelet's talk about that issue
immediately.
All right what is a contractorgoing to do to prevent that
issue in the future and how canwe as a team resolve it
together?
I think the tactone deliveryTTDs is huge.
So sometimes it's it's gonna beuh direct and forward or
sometimes it's gonna be heyhere's some of the the issues
(29:47):
that we're experiencing and howcan we resolve together it
depends on on the relationshipbut do it as quickly as you can
don't wait don't delay do youhave any projects over the years
that have been your favorite touh work on I've had a couple
yeah I've I've definitely had aa few I had a pipeline project
that was probably one of myfavorites just because I had
never done anything like itbefore a hammering project with
(30:09):
with utility going underneaththe road so not a not a jack and
more not a you know directionaldrill but literally hammering a
pipe um through the roadway itwas the coolest thing I'd ever
seen when was that was that likeearly on in your career uh it's
probably five years ago fourfour and a half years ago okay
so not too bad um we got toexperience some really cool
(30:30):
things and now I'm in a in aposition to where I don't get to
manage it or or have directinvolvement but getting to see
the the team experience itdirectly is is super cool.
SPEAKER_01 (30:41):
Yeah well I I have one one other thing I want to
talk about really quick beforewe jump into the last uh segment
which is the lightning round sobefore we get into the lightning
round um I did want to bring upone thing mainly because and we
talked about this before wepressed record but you know we
for the last year we've beenpartnered with Ladies in Land
and uh we you know the ladies inland founder also started dudes
(31:04):
in development so you know theguys side of things and so we
are naturally a partner of dudesin development as well and so
you've been involved in thatorganization in the Jacksonville
area and I just wanted to getyour um initial thoughts about
you know what is theorganization and then just also
what's your experience been likewith the organization so far.
SPEAKER_00 (31:22):
Man I I don't have anything but good things to say
about the organization uh bothsides of the fence both for for
the ladies and the men in theindustry I got involved uh early
on uh on the ladies side early2025 and and got asked to speak
at an engagement and sponsor andlearn about the organization and
what it was doing to benefit thewomen uh and it's phenomenal
right mentorship and and andteaching and bringing awareness
(31:46):
to the entirety of the industryabout what is actually happening
so you might you might be adeveloper and not know about XYZ
well let's let's bridge that gapand and train and mentor and and
develop the individual across uhthe industry and so for me when
I got tapped by Erica and andasked to to kind of lead the
(32:08):
Jacksonville marketplace it itwas a no-brainer yes for selfish
reasons but more so for for themen in the industry right um
I've always uh been acutelyaware of of some of the gaps
that exist because of theshortcomings that I had growing
up and the things that I didn'tget to experience.
So I'd love to be you know atool so to speak for
Jacksonville for the people inthe industry that uh I missed
(32:30):
out on.
So I'd love to mentor anddevelop and train and bring
awareness to the industry andreally speak life to you know
the next generation of ofprofessionals.
And so love being involved wasan easy yes for me.
So I I think we just had one ofour first uh meetings last month
(32:51):
we've got our second uh meet uphere at the end of June and our
third early July and getting tosee the men in the industry is
is huge.
Uh building the relationships ishuge and I'm I'm definitely
excited to see what it brings toJacksonville.
SPEAKER_01 (33:03):
And I think one of the big things for me and I
think I've mentioned this on aprior podcast but um I'm very
much opposed to like identitypolitics and everything like
that.
And I remember talking to Ericain the beginning and it's like
when we were talking about theladies in Landside and I said
hey I'm all about likepartnering on this but I need to
understand the organization alittle bit more and like what
it's all about and everything.
(33:24):
And we were very much in syncabout it's not about getting
women in the industry and givingthem jobs because they're women
it's about educating women tomake them understand that it's
these are careers that they cangrow into and they basically get
the knowledge and build theskills to be able to earn these
positions.
And it's the same same thing onthe men's side right with with
(33:45):
dudes in development.
And so when we talked about thatand that was the understanding
of it's like all right perfect.
That's I'm all about that I'mall about earning the the
meritocracy and earning yourrole whatever that role is going
to be and so um I think forpeople listening in who are not
familiar with them that's verymuch um how the organizations
are are structured and and howthey operate.
It's not it's not uh you knowone of these other organizations
(34:07):
that you might see that is doingthings different to that to
where it's just it's about theidentity of the of the group.
SPEAKER_00 (34:14):
Yeah yeah well said and and I think what's so cool
to see is is just the theeducation focus and the focused
on the individual versus asocial aspect or a social
organization.
So uh hats off to Erica and whatshe's built and the opportunity
that she's presented to me andmany other uh ambassadors that
get to lead the marketplacesaround the country and um it's
(34:35):
phenomenal.
SPEAKER_01 (34:36):
Agree.
So for those of you listening inon the the guys out there
there's uh be on the lookout forsome of these chapters opening
up around the country um overtime you can you can connect
with that and I'm not even sureif there's a dudes in
development website out therebut in development.com yes sir
okay there you go so you guyscan check that out out there and
uh see if there's a chaptercoming to you sometime soon and
(34:57):
and get involved with that butwith that said let's go ahead
and shift into the last segmentwhich is the lightning round so
I've got five questions for youall related to your experience
uh first one what's one thingevery project needs more of oh
my god I don't I've never hadthat question um what does it
need more of more wisdom I thinkmore wisdom there's there's been
(35:18):
a lot of projects that I've hadthe opportunity to be involved
in and I saw that there wasinexperience across the board in
all positions and levels and andI think the awareness that
brought to me was hey it's it'scrucial that we fill that gap uh
and that void that we'recurrently experiencing in the
industry with wisdom right westill need to have authority
(35:41):
that has the wisdom andunderstanding of what's being
done why it's being done so thatit can be done correctly in the
future so making sure that we'renot uh gonna fill the gap with
uneducation, inexperience andgreen horns that could be that
could be disastrous.
Yeah.
So it's almost like when wetalked about earlier with your
first experience of kind of justbeing thrown thrown in and
(36:03):
trying to figure things out butit's less about you still want
people to be thrown in andfigure things out but you've got
to have the structure there sothat the mentors with that
experience are going to beinvolved to a certain degree to
make sure that uh that wisdomand knowledge is there.
Absolutely absolutely perfect.
All right second one what's thebiggest mistake that you see
(36:25):
often made duringpre-construction?
SPEAKER_00 (36:27):
Lack of communication or the assumption
or presumption that everythingis is hunky dory and good to go.
Sometimes the biggest problemsare the ones that you don't talk
about and you're not aware of uhagain kind of talking about the
expectation conversation rightit's really easy to sit there
and and and give the lowestdollar value uh as a contractor
right if that's what the ownerwants they want the lowest
(36:49):
dollar value we're gonna we'regonna make our our proposal
appear low but are we reallydigging into the details and
seeing it that it's apples toapples or it's not so um we need
to be cautious and and and awareof that for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (37:04):
All right I got to dig into that a little bit more
because the uh one one thingthat made me think of is you
know you get you can get such awide range of bids from
different companies andsometimes when you get those
really low ones I've heard somehorror stories of companies you
know bidding really low but thenthere's a lot of nickel and
diming that happens throughoutthe project with uh I think like
(37:27):
the change orders and thingsthat have to happen and next
thing you know they bid reallylow to get the job but at the
end of it they ended up payingmore than what some of the other
bids were from some of the othercontractors.
How do you as a developer how doyou look out for that or how do
you make sure that they're thebid is real and that it includes
everything.
SPEAKER_00 (37:46):
I I oh man love great topic love that you asked
this ask the questions rightwe're in an industry that
there's a there's a lot ofrespect and people are people
have integrity and there's a lotof respect for people to have
the integrity.
But there's also and it's sadthat we we're we're in an
industry that we we do see thisfrom time to time where there is
(38:08):
no integrity.
People are going to do the wrongthing and they want to get the
job for the wrong reasons rightthey're gonna get it low they're
gonna cut corners and and weneed to have integrity in this
industry and make sure that wedon't cut corners.
So how do we do that?
Price it the right way and Ihate to say it uh developers you
got to ask the questions to makesure that each contractor is
pricing it the right wayunsuitable soils and strippings
(38:28):
what are we doing withunsuitables and soils and
strippings is the contractoradding value and and reading the
geotechnical report and seeingyeah strippings are not suitable
they have to be exported offsite or disposed of the right
way.
I've heard and seen contractorsput unsuitables and strippings
in places that are not meant forunsuitables and strippings and
(38:50):
that's an integrity issue.
That's that's a huge problem butit also it causes concerns and
issues with the development at aat a future point in time.
Some of the other things thatyou experience is is just you
know lack of scope or missingscope.
We can easily exclude pricing onthings that you're maybe not
aware of all right like proofrolling or you know pond lining
(39:11):
we're gonna take this out notinclude this.
And so you can have theappearance of being low but do
you really have all the partsand pieces that is fully
required for the scope ofservices and it might not be to
anybody's demise or or or illintention it could just be that
we're not having theconversation you know in in the
(39:32):
contractor's mind they're gonnaprice as low as they can with as
little as they can uh and thenanother contractor comes in and
says we're gonna add as muchvalue and price everything and
and now that you have a hugedisparity between the high
number and the low number butthere's also a huge scope gap
and nobody's talking about that.
Face value they see the lownumber they see the high number
and they exclude the high numberand we we need to we need to do
(39:54):
a better job of having thoseconversations understanding why
and not just level it onquantities.
I think that's a that's an easyway to get in trouble if we look
at an SOV breakout from acontractor and compare it to
another contractor yeah we canprobably have similar quantities
and you can probably see thedollar differences well most
people I feel are looking at itand saying no it's just the
(40:16):
dollars that are different.
No it's the scope the scope isgoing to be the huge issue.
The dollars are pointing to theissue and the scope but let's
have the conversation about whyit's so different.
SPEAKER_01 (40:27):
Nice.
Well I'm glad you explained thatand I I think it's one of those
things where yeah you don't youdon't always get you don't
always get bids that come backthat are apples to apples.
I mean they're they're just notthey don't include the same the
same thing.
So um yeah makes sense.
SPEAKER_00 (40:40):
All right uh third one what's a red flag you
immediately pay attention to ona project lack of design uh or
or design conflicts so is thegeotechnical report in direct
conflict with the plans theproduct plans um is page one of
the plans drastically differentthan page two are some of some
(41:03):
of the details uh misleadingright it's a huge red flag we
didn't do our due diligencereview but not only that if if
you as a developer owner tellingme that this is this is our
final bidding um bid for thisone we're gonna go to contract
but as a contractor we canclearly see this is probably
(41:23):
60-90% you you need to put somemore effort into this because if
you contract on this you'regonna have complications later
on and change orders and thingsof that nature.
So red flag resolve the issuewith some of the discrepancies
do some more due diligencereview the plans better make
sure that all the documentsalign and and aren't in conflict
(41:44):
with one another.
SPEAKER_01 (41:45):
Alright fourth one what's the best lesson the field
has ever taught you this mightbe from the early days.
SPEAKER_00 (41:51):
Yeah probably I I think I talk talked on this in
another podcast but it stillholds true is you don't know
what you don't know.
Right?
And that's okay.
You might have the presumptionthat you know how something's
put in but when you go out thereand actually see it put in or
feel it and do it yourself,you're gonna have a completely
different understanding of ofthe effort that it takes to go
(42:12):
and do the work or how it'sgetting performed.
So from the field's perspectiveyou don't know what you don't
know and boy have I had somerude awakenings uh thinking I I
knew oh it's gonna take X amountof time to go and do this and
cost this amount but then I goout in the field and I see that
the conditions are different andit's wet and soupy and you got
(42:33):
to do dewatering and it's it'shard work and there's there's no
shortcut to hard work.
You gotta do the work.
So you don't know what you don'tknow and until you figure out
what you don't know ask thequestions.
Right?
SPEAKER_01 (42:46):
Constantly be curious and inquisitive yeah I
think the ignorance that we havethat we look back on in prior
you know the prior years of ourlife and we look back and you
you just sit there and you'relike man I can't believe I did
that or I can't believe Ithought that or I can't believe
it's just amazing how ignorantwe are like even even at this
moment in time and probably fiveyears I'll look back at this
(43:07):
moment in time and think abouthow ignorant I was about
something because you're justconstantly evolving and growing
and stuff and there's just yeahyou don't know you don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (43:15):
It's just uh yeah all right let's see last one
here what's the best piece ofadvice you've ever received in
your career best piece of advicekind of going back to that don't
you don't know if you don't knownever stop growing there's
there's never the doors willnever open for you unless you
come knocking so uh askquestions seek wise counsel
(43:38):
continue to learn uh becausethose that stop learning get
left behind be eager to learnyou know slow to speak quick to
listen because you wanna youwant to be that person at the
table that doesn't necessarilyknow everything but you're gonna
suck up the information learnand be able to resolve a problem
later down the road.
SPEAKER_01 (43:57):
All right well that brings us to a close here what's
the uh best way for people toconnect with you and also learn
more about your company yeah goonline to uh
pettycoachschmidt.com uh or youcan connect with me on LinkedIn
Charles Toffrey uh on LinkedInalternatively uh go on
dudesanddevelopment.com uh inthe circle community with dudes
and development I've got myprofile there and I've got my
(44:20):
email and cell phone number onthere so we'd love to connect uh
would love to meet you and havea conversation build a
relationship right at the end ofthe day we're here to do that
and would love to meet you andand understand what you guys do.
Perfect.
And don't mess up his last namelike I did you've heard it now
multiple times pronounced theright way.
So yeah don't don't mess it up.
Well I if you guys look in thedescription for this episode
(44:42):
there will be a link there tothe show notes page and on the
show notes page will be all thelinks that were just mentioned
by Charles there.
So check that out connect withCharles uh check out dudes in
development and check outPeticoach and uh yeah again
really appreciate you hopping onhere and if you guys are not
already subscribed please clickthat button we'd love to have
you back for the next oneotherwise we will talk to you
(45:03):
all next week thanks Robin
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