Big turnover doesn't mean BIG PROFITS, get back to basics and make more MONEY.

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
you've reduced your turnover by three and a half odd
million dollars.
Yeah, you've halved your teamand we've made profit.
G'day guys, welcome back toanother episode of level up.
We are back in a absolutelybawling shed this afternoon here
in brisbane, cracking episodecoming your way today.

(00:21):
So, uh, we've actually got mattfrom ms constructions.
How are you mate?
Yeah, good Thanks, duane.
Good to be up here in the heat.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
So Matt's another Elevate member.
What's it been mate?
18 months maybe.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
Yeah, time flies.
Yeah, I reckon 18 months it'sbeen.
Yeah, yep.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
Yep, and yeah, I've been super keen to get get matt
on and he's got a prettyremarkable story um to to talk
about.
But we also got a lot of commoninterest.
Now me and the girls aregetting into horses matt's
bloody breeds horses like we gota lot to talk about this
afternoon, mate yeah, lookingforward to.

Speaker 2 (00:52):
It's been great straight on the kangaroo and up
here, and I'm yeah been jumpingout of my seat ever since, so
can't wait to get into it yeahso before I get into it with
matt, so I put the challenge outthere all the time.

Speaker 1 (01:02):
So anyone that's listening and wants to come on
the podcast, either share theirstory or come on the podcast and
I'm happy to do some sort ofmentoring, training and talk
about ways they can improvetheir business or whatever.
So many people reach out, Isend them the details and I
think we've had only two orthree follow through, but Matt's
literally been down inwhereaboutsabouts you located

(01:25):
we're on the vickney southborder, down a little town
called cobram, sort of halfwaybetween aubrey wodonga and
nuchuka.
So a little spot out there, yeah, so you're an hour and a half
away from aubrey wodonga.
Yeah, you've gone to work thismorning, smashed out a few hours
driven to aubrey wodonga,jumped on a plane like literally
a couple hours ago.
Yeah, flown up to brisbane,jumped in an Uber, got up here
and sitting in the podcast chairand we're going to go out and

(01:47):
have breakfast and have a chattomorrow morning.
And then you're straight on aplane tomorrow morning and
flying home.
So talk about commitment.
Yep, yep, no, you got to dowhat you got to do.
Before we go back and talkabout how you got into it, like
your growth in the last 18months has been pretty insane.

Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yeah, it's been awesome and I don't know.
Everyone gets into the buildingindustry.
It gets busy and you know youthink of all the shiny things as
the best things that everhappened.
But now we take back and have abit of a look at where we've
come from and our growth's moreso from downscaling and changing
the way our business operates,more so than some people think
growth, you know going andbuilding 20 homes a year or
getting your business up to youknow, a big team of chippies.

(02:24):
Our growth's been the oppositeto get the office right, so our
foundations are right, andreally bring everything back to
where it's enjoyable and thennow start building on, you know,
better homes and the way we dothings and get back enjoying it
again yeah, because I bang on alot about like.

Speaker 1 (02:38):
Turnover means nothing, like if you know, it
doesn't matter if you got 1million, 10 million, $10 million
, $100 million, whatever.
If you're not making money,it's pointless.
Do you mind if I share?

Speaker 2 (02:48):
some numbers.
Yeah, go for it.

Speaker 1 (02:50):
And correct me if I'm wrong, but you, since joining
Live, life Build andunderstanding your numbers and
stuff, you've dropped yourturnover by what?
$4 million or something.

Speaker 2 (02:59):
Yeah, we ran consistently around that $10
million, $11 million mark andobviously just spinning tires
and thinking, yeah, this isawesome, we're picking up
beautiful big homes, we're doingnice commercial work, we think
we're kicking goals but thenjoining Live, life, build,
actually catching up andlearning more numbers.
We have brought it back.
Well, last financial year waspretty recent, it was around
that $7.5 million, but also wehalved the team.
We had 17 chippies.

(03:20):
We've 17 chippies, we've goneback to seven chippies and we're
doing the same work as when westarted cutting back.
We got back to about 10carpenters, back to seven, but
we're doing the same work as 10.
But just the culture's back, theenergy's back, the efficiency's
back, the offices.
You know everyone loves comingto work, everyone loves having a
chat and my biggest goal and Iguess where my success looks at
now is if I can have people cometo work, enjoy what they do,

(03:48):
but also get time to have aholiday and book things in with
their family.
And I want we've designed ouroffice now if someone's away,
they don't get a phone call.
It shouldn't have to wait tillthat person can get back on
monday and they'll answer yourquestion.
And that's my biggest rewardnow to get a really nice team
with us.
Everyone's enjoyable about whatthey do and I want to work with
my staff to where they want togo and what they want to do.
So we've got a few aspirationsin the pipeline for building the
staff up and letting them dowhat they need to do.
But it's just awesome.
Like me, my man's been with menearly seven years now and he
come to me from a chippy andwanted to be a supervisor and oh

(04:10):
, just the last.
The growth in him over the lasttwo years.
You got to tell him to knockoff so little things like he.
I make him pick his daughter upand his daughter's up from
school a couple days a week andhe knocks off early and just
those sort of things.
My growth now it's just.
It's not all about working 12hours a day, seven days a week
and it wasn't worth it.

Speaker 1 (04:25):
So, that's, you can't do any of it without a team.
But now you, um, so you, you'vereduced your turnover by three
and a half odd million dollars.
Yeah, you've halved your teamand we've made profit.

Speaker 2 (04:35):
But and you've made a quite substantial profit yep,
um, but not only that, you,you've had pretty substantial
holidays this year yeah, well,well, this was the first time in
definitely I think it was sevenyears since the wife come away
with us because we got thehorses and everything.
We actually went away on aholiday, flew up to Airlie Beach
and went out fishing and didall the things we wanted to do
with our kids and I didn't getone phone call for the whole

(04:55):
week and that was my win To havea team that could run the
business.
Obviously set ages up in thebackground before you go, but it
was just awesome to switch offfor a week and come back fresh
and it actually felt a bit weirdgetting around without the
phone attached to my ear andthat was just yeah, that that's.
You can't put money on thatlike that was awesome.
And this year we're trying toplan maybe three weeks to go up
through the outback and evenwell, it's a hard thing but

(05:16):
we're working on it.
Um, our school a lot of kids goto the same school and they got
a three-week middle of the yearbreak and of course, everyone
wants time off with their kids.
So we're nearly thinking aboutshutting the business down for a
week so everyone can have thetime off.
So you know it's in thepipeline.
These are the little thingsthat we're looking at to you
know.
Keep the staff happy and makeit enjoyable.
Yeah, that's freaking awesome.

Speaker 1 (05:33):
But, like I bang on a lot about how, um, like it's
easy to go out and get, likeeveryone's looking for a
business manual, whether whatdoesn't matter what type of
trader or builder you are, buteveryone wants this, this
business manual that's going togive you all the secrets to run
a great business, know yournumbers, make money yep, um, but

(05:53):
can you tell us a little bit,because I I think that's helpful
and you definitely need it, butnone of that will work if your
mindset's not correct yeah, well, I'm not your typical gym
person or anything like that,and I found getting the mindset
right and having a morningroutine is huge for me.

Speaker 2 (06:10):
Like I get up, alarm goes off at three o'clock.
I go to that gym and I hategoing to the gym.
But now I've learned that if Ihate it I'm going to do it more.
So I'm not a weights person butif I go for it, yeah, if I go
for like a run on the treadmilland I'm going to do five minutes
of a run, if I'm thinking thewhole five minutes that I don't
want to do it, I'll do anotherminute and then you know, one
day you have a good day whereyou're not feeling it, so you
just stop at five minutes.
So that's my mental game thatI've never learned about.

(06:31):
That I've been doing in thelast six months and it's changed
the way I come to work of themorning.
You know I'll get in.
I want to be in the officebefore anyone comes and annoys
me and just changing those keylittle things are just, and I
want to be home at four o'clockevery day Routine's huge, isn't

(06:51):
it Massive?
yeah, it's huge, and just beingable to switch the phone off and
just trades get used to you notbeing there.
I'm gone at four o'clock,especially now we've got
daylight savings in Victoria soyou can get out with the kids,
they can ride their horses or wecan go for a ski out the river
as it warms up and have a lifeafter work.

Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yeah, it's all important stuff.
Like mate, we've got so much totalk about I don't know where
to keep going back and pullingyou up or what to go on to next.
But like routine's massive Likein so many people like I just
think people make excuses Likeit's simple as that I could make
an excuse every morning whenthat alarm goes off.

Speaker 2 (07:32):
But if I don't get up and just get straight up, get
all me clothes out the nightbefore, smoker packed everything
ready to go, like the othermorning I got to the gym and I
forgot me towel and I've got tohave that two minute cold shower
, like that's part of me ritual.
Oh well, I'm still having acold chair, I'll just work it
out.
Get dry later.
If someone sees me doing anudie run down the street to get
dry, well, that's their badluck.
But just those little mindsetchallenges, you know, you're
sort of I've never, ever beenlike that and I just found

(07:53):
that's helped me so much.
So what, what made that?
What was that change?
I don't know.
I think it's just, you know,listen to obviously yourself,
and like getting addicted tolistening to podcasts and you
know, every little podcast mightgo for an hour.
Sometimes I've just got to gofor a drive because we don't go
very far.
Um, and you just get that onelittle thing you try and
implement and I just don't know.
I think I'm a bit addicted toit now and just seeing the
change in the day, like how Iattack the day and um, you know,

(08:15):
and just the change that we'vehad as the business as well.
Like I can be more attentive inthe mornings and really make
myself accountable to you know,if the staff needs something
from me, I can book it in mydiary and be there.
So yeah, there's been a lot ofchange with that.

Speaker 1 (08:28):
It's a flow-on effect too, isn't it Like if people
see that you're taking 100%ownership and you're not making
excuses, like it flows throughthe whole team, or just
something as simple as like acalendar.

Speaker 2 (08:36):
Everyone in my office team now runs a calendar and
they can see everyone's calendarand if they want me to do an
inspection or go do something,they'll look at my calendar.
The site supervisor will lookat, you know, if he wants to do
a walkthrough with a client,well, what meetings have I got
on for the week and when is hegoing to plan that in?
And it's funny, now, after 12months, it's just they'll put in
the calendar.
I've got to make sure I checkthe calendar because sometimes I
might miss it because I haven't.

Speaker 1 (09:06):
I've no overlapping of communication and yeah, yeah,
it's great.
And that um, yeah, commitment'shuge.
The um like yeah, I I feel Ifeel bad when I'm I'm being a
bit hard on people, like becauseeveryone's like, oh, I've got
young kids or I've just had ababy, or I've I'm not gonna like
sleep at the moment, or likethere's yep, there's an excuse
for everything.
If you let there be.

Speaker 2 (09:23):
Well, you start getting annoyed too.
Like you get it, like it's likewe're very strict on, say, our
scheduling and you get atradesman make up this excuse of
why he didn't turn up and it'sjust like we're running all
these jobs, we're doing all this, we're not making excuses.
And it's funny, once you startlearning how not to make an
excuse, you do get frustratedwhen people have got excuses and
you're like I just want to helpthem now, like not be rude to
them, just say, hey, why don'tyou try this or why don't you do
this?
And I'm no mentor by anystretch of the imagination, but

(09:46):
you just see how it's improvedyourself and just the family
life too, not just business, butyeah, you just now they're
starting to rub off on a fewlittle things, like my daughter
hates being late.
I'm always if you're not there10 minutes early, you're late.
Yeah, and that you know itstarts to flow on, yeah the?

Speaker 1 (09:59):
um, I don't know what's going on outside We've
got birds or something on theroof of the shed but anyway, I
think it's really important tokeep that same routine.
For me, that's been a massivegame changer because I think I
used to always be the personthat would always be leaning
towards the easier way.
I remember, even growing up,when I got into racing, mountain

(10:20):
bikes and things and I hadasthma growing up and I got to
the state titles and things.
Looking back now I use theasthma as excuse, like I
remember, uh, being on this itwas a queensland trials for a
cross-country event because Ialways had this dream to go to
the 2000 olympics on the withthe mountain bikes.
Yeah and uh, yeah, I'm pedalingup this hill and I just started

(10:42):
puffing and it's almost likeI've talked myself into having
asthma, having asthma so that Ididn't have to finish the race
or something.
Yep, um and yeah, whereas now Ijust there's no excuses no, and
that's the best way to be.

Speaker 2 (10:55):
You know it's awesome .
And then you just have that noexcuse attitude.
It just helps everything like,no matter what it is, like it
could be, I can't bother takingthe bins out tonight.
No, I've, I've got to do it.
Tonight's got to go out Like itjust starts rippling effect
into everything you do.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:07):
People are telling me I'm mad mate, Like even just
yesterday, like I'm prettyfucking tired sitting here today
, as you can probably tell frommy eyes.
But like I had to go out to thefarm yesterday, like our farm's
on a good day, four hours 45,uh drive.
Battle in the bruce.
Hey, battle in the bruce it'sthe opposite way.
So the traffic's generallypretty good.

(11:28):
Yep.
Um, and I had to go and meet afew people up there.
We've just submitted our da andwe're trying to get some
approvals and things.
So, um, I committed like Iwanted to go up there.
I got a heap of shit on so I Ihad to leave home at four
o'clock yesterday morning tomake sure that I could make the
first guy that wanted to meet meout there.
And I've committed to trainingevery day now until I do this

(11:49):
next challenge.
So I was like, well, fuck, I'vegot to be up at 3 o'clock then.
If I don't get up at 3 o'clock,I can't do my half-hour workout.
That's just how it is, isn't itLike I'm feeling it because I'm
fucked today, but I'll have topick it up tonight and get to
bed a bit earlier.
But when you take 100%ownership for things and you
commit to making no excuses,everything just gets easier.

Speaker 2 (12:10):
Well, it's even simple things like on the job
you used to make an excuse for,say, a tradesman doing a good
job.
If you take ownership and say,well, that's my fault, he didn't
do the good job because Ididn't check it, or whatever the
scenario is, it helps there aswell.
Like it's just huge and yeah,well, that's unfortunate.
Well, I've got to get up atthree because it's not making
any more hours in the day andyou know my afternoons are
precious for me with the kidsand what we do on the farm and
at home.
And I'm like, well, I used togo to work at four and I wanted

(12:32):
that four to six.
Well, I've just got to go anhour earlier because I've got to
fit this gym in somewhere, andso how are you going with?

Speaker 1 (12:38):
the.
So you're, you're, you're up atthree every morning, off off to
the gym and then at the officesmashing out your two hours.
Yep, like what would you callthat?
Two hours personal development?
Or just I just call me a power.

Speaker 2 (12:49):
I get in there, I sit down, I normally look at what
I've got to get done for the day.
I've normally got notes that Ifollow pretty heavily still
paper ones but I find that theseway to remember I do a bit of
journaling, a bit of you know,just trying to get that into my
day.
It's something I never done.
So I'm really just working myway through that over the last
probably six or eight weeks.
So just writing a few more justwhat I'm thinking at the time
down where I want to be, what Iwant to get achieved in the next

(13:10):
sort of five or six years, andthen that, yeah, I just call it
me a couple of hours of power.
Like no one rings me.
My brother's a landscaper, itI've got these two hours.
If I get that done, I'll givehim a call a bit early, but then
my main man always comes in atsix and he's always five to six
every day you hear the rollerdoor go up.
So it's it's very critical.

(13:30):
It gives you I can get you knowduring the day probably what
would take me.
Four hours I can get done inthat too.
So it's yeah, yeah, I try notto miss it.

Speaker 1 (13:37):
But you like you're committed but, like you said,
you don't want to change thatafternoon.
You want time with the kids andwhatever.

Speaker 2 (13:43):
Whereas for the previous years it's always been
like work comes first, so youhave to just do it and I'll roll
in the door at six.
It's like no, I want to be homeat four and I don't want to
answer my phone after four.
Yeah, yeah, that takes a lot ofcommitment, yeah, and mindset,

(14:06):
like I'm very I hate not whenpeople ring you, obliged to
answer the call.
I really want to help them and,like you're saying, taking
ownership and being like you see, these trades and it's
unorganized, like the brickyringing you of an afternoon when
he could have rang you all dayto ask you for something, or you
know, just your generalstereotype tradesmen that are
getting to the end of the dayhaving a beer and thinking, oh,
I'll ring matt and see if he'sready for that job.
So we've gone with ourscheduling and we're like a nazi
camp now with our schedule andwe want to make sure that we're
following that schedule andwe're choosing trades now based
off who will follow thatschedule and we've got a
concrete in there doing oursurrounds and we've got to watch

(14:28):
him, because if we don't makesure that schedule's right for
those surrounds or say, thebricklayer's running a week
behind or the stormwater didn'tget put in, he'll turn up.
So our goal for the next 12months is that we shouldn't have
to speak to him on thatschedule.
We send that out, yeah,everyone reads it, they come
back and they just follow it,yeah, and then we'll pick the
trays based on that.
We've just made a huge changewith our concreter, used the
same concreter for the last 12years and we've had to make a

(14:50):
big call and go the oppositedirection because it was just
mucking our schedules aroundlike two or three week delay on
when we want to put that slab inthe ground.
Then it affects the whole job.
So, yeah, that's probably ourgoal for the next 12 months
really focus on no excuses withour job scheduling and our and
our quality of our jobs too andthat's the sort of commitment
you need.

Speaker 1 (15:07):
hey, like we've, we've made a call, um.
Look well, today we're sittinghere recording this.
Today it's the 28th of november, um, and so we're about to take
on um, another person inmanagement and another four
on-site staff.
So it's a pretty, and even thatwe're still going to struggle
to keep up with the work we havefor next year.
Yeah, but like next Friday,we're doing a full leadership

(15:30):
session with myself, camille andthe supervisor and this new
staff member, yeah, and thenafter that we're moving on to
the lead carpenters.
We're really going to knuckledown on everybody's role
descriptions and have a veryclear understanding of exactly
who does what in the business,who does what on sites, yep, but
I've basically warned everybody.
So we're going to have a bit ofa function in the first couple

(15:53):
of months of next year with allof the trades that are living up
to our expectations.
So if any of my trades arelistening to this and you
haven't been invited to thatevent, it's probably because
you're.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
Step up.
Yeah, you need to step up.
Level up a bit, would you?

Speaker 1 (16:07):
yeah, level up, yeah but, like I'm, one thing that's
really ticked me off the lastfew months is I can't stand that
people are only thinking aboutwhat they have to do the day
they show up to do it.
Yeah, and it's frustrating likewe work months ahead, like we
might be working six, eight, 12months ahead in the office.
We're setting up Google drives.
We're sending all these guysdocuments, we're locking them in

(16:29):
, we're sending them jobschedules.

Speaker 2 (16:31):
It's huge, the office .
Now you get people saying to mewhat are you all doing there?
Why do you have so many in theoffice?
But, for instance, we just dida little tiny renovation.
It took us four weeks to do thejob and I use that now as an
example to trades.
Well, this is what it takes.
The office works huge.
If the office works not right,the job's not right.

(16:52):
There's, you know, selectionsaren't done.
People aren't.
Like we're real fussy on thattoo, like everything's got to be
signed up before we startwithin reason.

Speaker 1 (16:57):
Sometimes you might have something that yeah
whatever reason with the client,but I think whenever you're
building custom stuff there,there's always that something.

Speaker 2 (17:04):
And they're the little things that just make the
job run to time, make it allrun to schedule, make their
owner accountable too.
It's setting that expectation.

Speaker 1 (17:11):
I suppose, but we're just finding there's too much
wasted time.
The trades that aren't takingthe time to review their
drawings and get their headaround the job before they show
up.
They're the ones that arewasting hours of supervision
time the day they're on site andthen something comes up because
they haven't bothered to lookat it.
So then the supervisor ormyself or someone in the team is

(17:32):
running around trying to getsomething for them because all
of a sudden they figured outthey needed it.

Speaker 2 (17:37):
So all those inefficiencies are costing
homeowners and it's adding toyour supervising time, and we
had this discussion the otherday.
We're sort of working out liketrying to we should be allowing
for our supervising time.
So we're trying to work thatout and then we're doing the
same sort of thing.
Well, that trade we shouldn'tuse because he's taking up too
much time.
When we get there, so say weget to roughing stage, we'll try

(17:58):
and have a day when time frame,so then my supervisor's there
for that period of time and thenhe's gone and he can go do
something else for the day,whereas before you'd meet the go
for the walkthrough electrician.
The next day go with theplumber.
The next day you might have thehomeowner at the end, just in
case I wanted to change itbefore the plaster went on.

Speaker 1 (18:13):
and you're right, it's three or four days, then
that could be one morning, yeahyeah, but the trades, just that,
I think they've they've grownto expect it like I think so
many builders just hold theirhand, let them show up to site,
and the ones that piss me offthe most are the ones that have
a bit bigger team, and so youmeet them on site, you go
through with the boss or thesupervisor or the leading hand

(18:36):
or whoever it may be, and youthink everything's sorted.
And then a day or two laterhe's not on site but one of his
workers is, and his worker areasking you, supervisor, the same
questions that you just toldthem two days ago.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
Or you go have a look at it and it's not right and
you go.
Well, I've been through this,I've explained it.
They've quoted the job.
They've looked at the job.
Zach's same problem is therenow.
Yeah, and it's by us, I think.
The same thing getting the andon.
You're gonna so with ourelectricians.
We're very lucky.
We've got a good crew of them,but same thing they got bigger.
I think they got 60 odd staffnow and they do, yeah, a lot of

(19:07):
different stuff as well, butthey've got a leading hand and
he runs that job.
So he'll do the walkthroughwith the client.
He'll manage his apprentices,he'll manage the qualified
electrician on site.
But we built that over years oftalking to him to say, well,
we're sick of this.
Every time we get a goodelectrician build up, you put
him up into another role and westart we're training your
apprentices up and, yeah, theywill work with you once you
start explaining to them what.

Speaker 1 (19:27):
And if they don't, well, unfortunately, you got to
find another one, yeah, and Ithink that you've got to make
that call every now and thenbecause you can't, um, at the
end of the day, like there's alike I don't know, probably piss
some people, some tradies, offby saying this but, like most
tradies, don't advertise.
No, not once you get the workwith the builder.
Like we're the ones doing allthe marketing, doing all the
sales, meeting the client,spending 6, 12, 18 months, two

(19:51):
years for all that preliminarystage, yeah, and like literally
sending you plans and saying,hey, work on a silver platter.

Speaker 2 (19:58):
They don't.
Sometimes they don't even knowthey have to talk to the client.
They've just got to turn up anddo the job and go home.
They don't have to speak toanyone, don't have to organize
anything.
Yeah, half the time we mighteven supply the material.
All they've got to do is justrock up with their tools yeah,
yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:08):
And then they and they still want their handheld
to walk through the job, showthem everything that needs to be
done, like yeah, so, um, yeah,probably piss some traders off
for saying that, but it'sreality.
So, yeah, I think if we're, ifwe're going to improve this
industry, then it's not justabout builders stepping up and
designers and architects Likeit's, it's every trade.

Speaker 2 (20:26):
And it comes back to like obviously the builders got
the brand.
There's nothing worse thansaying, oh, that didn't work at
real good job.
That build is no good.
It's normally the tradesman ofwhatever you know plumber,
whatever it is has made themistake, not the builder.
That builder's going to be thebest builder in the area and
you're going to get more workthat you don't have to worry
about chasing.
Yeah, it's pretty simple, isn'tit?

Speaker 1 (20:47):
Oh, mate, it is.
It's like, let's face it, anytrade that does a decent job,
like builders, just keep feedingthe work 100%.
There's no cost to them at all,apart from a bit of quieting
time, exactly.
But like you've come a long way, let's go back a little bit.

(21:10):
Like so you got a prettyinteresting story.
Um, can you tell us a littlebit about, like, how, what, what
was going to happen for you toget your apprenticeship?
Because I think this is yeah sogeez, I am going.

Speaker 2 (21:16):
Great, it was a while ago but, um, yeah, I remember
like my old man has electricalbusiness in town that mum was a
midwife so we spent, yeah, a lotof grounded time.
Oh, we had grandparents haddairy farms.
They were always out and aboutdoing something.
I really loved just buildingthings.
Mum and dad used to buy andsell, like build and sell, and
had a bit of land and I justdon't know I didn't want to
crawl in roofs and put ceilingfans in and things like that.
I thought I want to be acarpenter and, um, dad had

(21:37):
always said to me that he wishedhe was a carpenter.
He had a chance to be acarpenter or electrician.
He went the electrician way.
I don't know whether that wassome, but I went that way and
you know, I did work experienceand I actually traveled 45
minutes away by bus to do it.
They didn't havepre-apprenticeships back then,
but it was a supposed to taketime off your apprenticeship.
So I took the v-line bus toshepherdon and your, your, your
story.

Speaker 1 (21:57):
Sorry to cut you off, but is commitment like for any
young people out there that arewhinging and bitching that they
can't get a job?
Yeah, listen to what matt'sabout to say, because it's it's
what you need to do yeah, wellit's.

Speaker 2 (22:07):
Um, I was.
I wanted to be a carpenter andthere wasn't many jobs.
I thought I'll go do the learnwhat I can go to what they call
a pre-apprenticeship now.
So I'd go every wednesday on av-line bus down to shep school
and start to nine, but you hadto get the six o four o'clock to
get the bus home because myparents couldn't come and get me
.
So you do that.
That was fine.
And then I did work experiencewith every builder around town.

(22:28):
I wanted to, you know, just tosee what everyone did.
And this one builder I got onphone for work.
No, no, didn't, didn't have anarcs.
I was like I want to be thereand then one builder he was did
a lot more new homes and Ithought that's where other
builders, you know, push abarrel, do something like that,
like now you can use the drop soyou're capable.
You'll be right.
And they used to bring me whenthey had a frame and I'd go

(22:48):
there and just cut the frame upfor them.
Yeah, and I just thought it wasthe best, put my work boots on
and take me smoko for the dayand dad would drop you off and
you just worked for the day 15,16 yeah would have been, might
have been 14 even when I firststarted doing it and and they
were a really good bunch ofblokes to get along with.
They were probably the only crewaround town that had three or
four guys, whereas a lot werejust old-fashioned, just the
builder and maybe an uncle orsomeone working with them.

(23:08):
And I thought no, that's what Iwant to do.
So I did, got to the end ofyear 11 and thought no, I've had
enough of school, I'm not aschool kid, no-transcript.

(23:30):
Well, there was a reason theydidn't want them.
So I was talking to my cousinwho's a plaster and he was in up
in cairns working at the time.
He's like I'll get you acarpentry apprenticeship up here
.
So I just finished doing up meold couple of years and put the
dirt bike on the back and theswag and I was like well, after
Christmas I'm, I'm have to go.
So we got around the small town.
The builder said to me uh, rangmy dad, cause back then there
wasn't mobiles everywhere ranghim and said I think your son

(23:52):
needs an apprenticeship.
We'll give him one, but wedon't have any really to do, but
we'll put him on.
So I was cleaning gutters Idon't remember how many times.
Yeah, digging trenches by hand,whatever it was, and it was
such a.
I look back now.

(24:12):
It wasn't at the time, but youlook back now and you learnt so
much.
You learn how to hang plaster.
You learn how to.
We used to dig our slabs byhand with a shovel.
You'd spend a week on theshovel digging slabs by hand and
a jackhammer, but it taught youa lot about how to do the
sandpads correctly.
Did you have?
How old are you, mate?
I'm 36.

Speaker 1 (24:30):
No 35.

Speaker 2 (24:31):
35.

Speaker 1 (24:32):
Yeah, you're nine years younger than me, did you
have?

Speaker 2 (24:34):
concrete pumps.
No, we used a kibble with acrane and they'd put their
concrete in it and then lift itup with a crane, and then we'd
dump it or we'd just push thewheelbarrow.

Speaker 1 (24:43):
Mate, my whole apprenticeship, we never had a
concrete pump, yeah, just awheelbarrow.
Yeah, we wheelbarrowed all ofour slaves and that was the
thing.
That was your job.
We'd turn up in the morning andthe like I um.
So I was the same we.
I used to do all the landscapingshit around my boss's house and
he'd knock off most fridaysbloody early and do whatever he
did, and I'd have to mow hislawn, trim his head, just do

(25:04):
everything.
Oh yeah, we'd turn up to thesites in the morning with 12
planks on the truck and we'd layplanks out across the mesh.
Yeah, yeah, and there'd be likesome.
I remember one day there wasprobably 10 or 12 of us on
wheelbarrows.
Yeah, there was no such thingas a concrete and that's what we
did.

Speaker 2 (25:21):
Like if the kibble was later on, early on it was a
wheelbarrow and that was yourjob.
You never argued, that was justyour job as the apprentice.
Or when you got a bit more upthe food chain you might have
hung on the vibrator for thepoor or something like you sort
of.
That's what you did, and now Idon't find now it's very hard
like a tip run or something, butI've got tip trailers now.
Back then you'd spend an hourat the tip in four degree heat
shoveling out of the trailerlike it's.
I don't know it's come a come along way for the wrong reasons,

(25:44):
I think.
Now, like it's, I look back,fortunate enough to look back on
my apprenticeship and I wasvery lucky to have a what I call
an old-fashioned apprenticeshiplike.

Speaker 1 (25:51):
But it taught you.
It taught you respect and andhard work.

Speaker 2 (25:55):
Yeah, I just wanted to be there, like I'd turn up
every day.
I'd be well, dad, driven intous.
You got to be early.
Yeah, if you're 10 10 minutes,if you got to be there 10 10
minutes before you need to bethere or you're late.
And that's just what we did.
You turned up and little things.
Like you try to learn what thecarpenter was going to do, like
you might be framing all week soyou know he needs to drop saw
out or some nail guns, so youtry and think ahead a little bit
to have it ready.
So when the carpenter finishestalking to the boss, the head

(26:16):
carpenter, you'd be ready to getinto the day, whereas you know,
sometimes these days it's sortof just wait around and see what
to do.

Speaker 1 (26:22):
Yeah, everyone's standing there waiting to be
told what do I need to do likeit drives me freaking insane,
yeah and you hear people sayingoh it's, it's hard to get an
apprenticeship, it's hard to dothis.

Speaker 2 (26:31):
Well, I don't know, it's maybe builders just getting
harder because they they knowwhat they went through and
they're sort of expecting thesame thing, but it's I don't
look.

Speaker 1 (26:39):
Do you think that's?
Do you think that's hard?
I don't think me wanting thatis me being hard no, I don't
think so.

Speaker 2 (26:45):
I don't know.
I think I don't know.
I just find you got to start atthe bottom, like I worked at
iga packing shelves.
I wasn't, you know, the managerof the store.
You got to work your waythrough to work out how it's
done.
I think that's made us thebuilder, that company that we
are today, because you've you'vedone the hard yards, you've
seen how it's done and you knowa bit of knowledge behind the
other trades as well.

Speaker 1 (27:01):
Yeah, but like just um, like just I, I I try and
tell all of my younger guys thatwe put through, like, if you,
if you just put in the effort,yeah, you will make good money
yeah because everyone that'scoming through and look.
This is no offense to youngerpeople, but I think this is just
reality.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
Like everyone's just gotten lazier and lazier well,
covid we call it the covid downour way that at any qualified
carpenter who got qualified attheir fourth year or sometimes
done a school base might bethird year they're out getting
really good money subbing around.
I've been in the industry 17years and I'm still learning
every day and excited to learnevery day.
I no offense to them, but as asunlicensed tradesmen, you're

(27:42):
going out there you're doingdecks per goals, which is fine,
but then you're stepping up intobathroom rentals and all of a
sudden you're getting reallygood money doing these things
that maybe you should have takena few more years to work with a
builder, to sort of work youout with the builder, to learn
different ways of doing it.
And it's also makes meaccountable too to go.
Well, I need to really train myapprentices so when they do
leave they do know what theyneed to do.
Yeah, but it'd be nice to haveone that got to his fourth year

(28:02):
and hung around for a little bitlonger so you could get that.
You know bit of bit ofcamaraderie with them and I've
got one, two that just gotqualified recently and I've got
one, two that just got qualifiedrecently and I've just said to
them you could tell me afterChristmas where you want to be
in three or four years and we'llwork on that for next year.
Lucky, they're both hangingaround, which is great, but I
get a lot of enjoyment out ofwatching them grow and seeing
what they want to do, ratherthan just turn up every day with
a nail bag.
Well, do you want to end upbeing a supervisor?

(28:24):
Would you like to learn how to?
And we get a lot of feedbackfrom our sort of apprentices.
We do do a bit of concrete andwe do do a little bit of tiling,
a little bit of hanging plaster, depending on the job, and it's
the variety that we're findingour apprentices are really
liking rather than just.
You know, there's watering thetrade down that much where you
just stick framing or you'rejust doing fixes, or Well it's

(28:44):
the only way to learn, isn't it?

Speaker 1 (28:46):
And I believe when you do a little bit of
everything, and you do a littlebit of everything, you do learn
to think ahead and you do learnwhat the other trades need.
Like if you're just smashingframes up every day, you might
not understand why studs have tobe in a certain position, or
like with rebates in slabs andfloor systems and things Like.
If you don't understand thewaterproofing and the falls in a

(29:07):
wet area and how the tollerneeds to do the bedding, you're
not understanding what you'retrying to set up for 100 all
you're thinking about is whatyou've got to do yeah, and then
you lead it to the ones thathave left in that fourth year.

Speaker 2 (29:21):
Well, they don't understand how all that works,
but they know they can do it.

Speaker 1 (29:23):
Yeah, so they just go and do it and it's yes, it's
scary oh, it's really scary andthe thing is with people that
are with a lot of people in ourindustry.
They don't know what they don'tknow no so they're going in and
they're smashing out work, notknowing that what they're doing
is stuffing up the next tradethat comes through or or is

(29:44):
causing an issue two, three,five years down the track and
it's even the same as us.

Speaker 2 (29:49):
Like we've been going for 12 years now and you're
still wanting to be better.
Every day You're looking atolder jobs that might have had a
little issue or a problem goingwell.
We don't want that to happenagain.
How are we going to fix it now?
Like you're forever adaptingand changing?
I suppose yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:01):
Like I was just at a meeting this morning.
So we've got a job that's aboutfour and a half years old and,
um, and the timber windows thatwere specified on the job, like
we it wasn't our usual supplierand the timber windows are
failing, like all the mullionsare all rotten and falling apart
and there's a beating aroundwindows, and like this window

(30:23):
company is trying to put it backon us.
And like, we've gone backthrough all our paperwork and
we're like mate, we orderedpre-primed, so don't tell us
they weren't painted because yousent them out to site painted,
yeah, and that they sat on sitefor too long before they were
painted.
We went back through ourschedules.
We know the delivery date.
We know we've got the invoicefor the painter for the outside
paint work.

(30:43):
Yeah, so we can work out fromthose two dates that they're
only on site for about six weeks.
Yeah, so we yep, um, so we've byfar exceeded what we needed to
do.
Yeah, but, and this windowcompany is pushing back, they
don't want to know about it.
But, um, so we've engaged anindependent, um, glazing and
window expert to come to thesite and do his own report.

(31:03):
Yep, and made in this industry,like you just said, like every
day you're learning, but that'smy pet hate with these.

Speaker 2 (31:10):
Call it a tradesman or a supplier, shit happens and
they don't back you.
Like we had a job the other daythat was probably similar, four
or five years old, it wasaluminium cladding and it was
like a nice gum grey colour andit all went purple.
Client was fantastic.
Rami said well, that shouldn'tdo that.
Like, that's the idea.
He didn't want timber, hedidn't want for 12 months
against this aluminium companyand we finally just did the job

(31:31):
last week and replaced 40 gramsworth of aluminium cladding that
the company come to the partywith and was awesome.
Yeah, but that took 12 months offighting with them just to get
them.
They couldn't even get a rep upto have a look.
Yeah, and I've heard a lot ofstories like that around where,
like a one locally had a cementsheet cladding product and
couldn't couldn't get the repout to look at it.
But then the next job he hadseventy thousand dollars worth

(31:52):
of cladding going on it.
They come up and fix the job.
So I'm like that's where theindustry needs a lot more
support to builders, becauseeven if it's a tradesman that's
done the wrong thing and he'sgone and you're left to fight
yourself to fix the problem,because that trades is no longer
around like it's.
That's.

Speaker 1 (32:04):
I hate that part of the industry.
Yeah, but like this guy thismorning was incredible, like I'm
really looking forward to himsending his report through.
But yeah, like he like I'vebeen a builder for whatever it
is uh, 18 years, 17 years, nowsomething but like he was
explaining me why the size ofthe tim, the millions on the
sides of timber windows are acertain size, why the, why the

(32:25):
bottom um sections are certainsize, like all these just little
things that I don't know, no,but we know coming.

Speaker 2 (32:32):
I don't even know.
They're probably just.
That's the mold they've got.

Speaker 1 (32:35):
That's the way they build them, yeah, and just the
way the beating's meant to beinstalled and like types of
silicon to use and like howdifferent wind ratings affect
the glazing, like just all theselittle things that like,
because, like, as a builder, youyou get the plans, you send
them out to a windowmanufacturer.
Yeah, you send them the energyefficiency report, all the
engineering, the wind rating,all those types of things and

(32:58):
like, honestly, you just crossyour fingers and hope that the
company's going to send you backwhat is fit for purpose.
You just presume.

Speaker 2 (33:04):
I suppose that's their job.
They should do it.
And look, we're being caughtout with tradesmen and that way
you send it to them.
They've got to do their job.
You're hoping they'll help you.
And this is where I found a bigdifference, especially the last
sort of three or four years,compared to when I first started
.
I had old school trades.
I'd turn up on site as a chippywith my nail bag on, do the
frame, get it all ready, go dothe lockup.
The trades would just come in,talk to the client, do their job

(33:26):
and go home.
You didn't.
Whereas now you've got tosupervise everything, everything
Down to making sure that, like,say, the air con blokes tied
all these air con ducts upcorrectly with the right size
tape, Like all these littlethings that you shouldn't have
to check.
It's very hard.
I find it hard as a builder now, because there is that many
little loopholes where thebuilders can be at fault.
Yeah, and we're not doctors.
We didn't go do a six or sevenand we can't.

Speaker 1 (33:48):
Google it all.
But there's so much to know,isn't there?
And then people whinge aboutthe margin and stuff they think
we're making.
And yet, like I know from whenI was a subbie, when you're a
subbie your dollar value of workis quite small or smaller than
the builder's dollar value.

Speaker 2 (34:03):
Your profit margin is a lot more on that dollar value
.

Speaker 1 (34:05):
Yeah, and that's right.
So it's not uncommon for allyour independent trades like to
be making 20, 30, 40, 50 percentmarkup so like, yeah, I could
make that off a house, it'd beall right.
But yeah, I do think that thewhole industry does need to
level up its game, like it's um,it shouldn't be left up to the

(34:25):
builder to have to understandand know everything, like I
think we're pretty lucky, like,I'd say, 80% of our trades.
They do put in a lot of effortand they do.
I love it when they come to usand go, hey, we've just learned
this, we've got to keep up todate with the new codes.
One of our trades he's actuallybeen ringing me a lot lately and
saying, oh, look on all yournew jobs, it's my tile.

(34:49):
You need to start setting up orputting all fall in in your sub
floors so that we don't have todo two layers of waterproofing.
So, yeah, well, it's good tohave trades that are working
with us to make sure that we candeliver quality products 100%.
Yeah, so I'm just want tofucking get in, smash out their
little part of the work andreally don't care about what
else is going on.

Speaker 2 (35:09):
We always had the saying that you only know good
tradesmen when there's a mistake.
That's what we used to alwaysrun by because they'd be awesome
when they're getting paid andthe jobs are sailing.
And as soon as you pull them upon that one thing and you cop
the earful down the phone orwhatever it is, it's like a
righto.
You know that tradesman wasn't.
You know that's.
That's what we're looking fornow in our trades.
Like you should be able to geton the phone.

(35:30):
Like I had a painter once whereI'd get another painter to come
in and repaint the house when hewas gone.
Just, you know, when you'reyoung and in the industry,
you're trying to do the rightthing by running a little town
and yeah, that was the worstthing we could have done.
It gave us the bad reputationfor not a very good paint job.
And then you know we've learnednow how it's'll come back and
fix it and there's no billattached with it.

(35:51):
They'll back themselves ontheir work and go oh, we should
have picked that up, but that'show it should be, isn't it?

Speaker 1 (35:55):
Like I don't know?
I'm positive you do the samething, but like mate, I wear so
many costs on a job because Iwon't hand over a home until
it's up to my standard we've gotthat same rule we won't hand it
over.

Speaker 2 (36:09):
Now, especially in the last 12 months, we've made a
real strict rule that we're nothanding over till we know
evidence, whereas we used to saywe're just waiting on.
You know, whatever it was to bedone, they'll do it next week
and the owner wants to get inbecause they're paying rent or
whatever pressure they'reputting on you now like no,
there's a done rule.
Traveling our office um, hewants to sort of get it to a 21
day rule.
Where the house is finished, wego through and then there's
time for the owner to look dowhatever they want, go through

(36:31):
it and then we hand over, likejust trying to make it good for
both parties, because not thatwe don't want to go back, but
sometimes you might have achange in weather or whatever
the problem be and you'll pick,like we had one the other day.
We, which we just hand overyesterday all finished, nothing
wrong, just waiting for theseptic be signed off by the
local shire, and the owner wentaround one night and the mix
sink mixer on the basin wasleaking, like they'd been
installed for three weeks.

(36:52):
Like no one's fault, it's justa faulty product and like all
right, no worries, we better getanother one and get them out
and sort that out.
There's all these little thingsthat can happen like it's yeah,
it's building, yeah, it's thejoys of it isn't it.

Speaker 1 (37:02):
Yeah, it's yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:04):
Like you think about how many products trades, people
, deliveries like it's a movingitem, like I often say, like I
used to, I've done up a few carsand like some of that and all
that sort of stuff and I try toexplain.
The paintwork on a house it'snot like painting a car.
You don't have it in acontrolled environment where you
can put a bake it or you canhave it airtight.
But we're working with whatsurfaces.
We've got, um, like the qualityof product, like cement sheet

(37:25):
and stuff's not like how it usedto be.
It's got ripples and dimplesand stuff in it.
Now the products aren't keepingup with the level of quality I
think we're all trying to get tonow and that's a really hard
one.
You've got inferior productsthat you're trying to work with.

Speaker 1 (37:37):
I think that's a really important point too.
Just across the board, with alltrades, every day is different.
The elements change, the teamenvironment changes.
There's so much to contend with.

Speaker 2 (37:50):
Well, it's something a little like concrete slabs
changes.
There's so much to contend with.
Well, it's something a littlelike concrete slabs.
Like I've been really workinghard in the last 12 months on
how we should be pouring ourconcrete.
What's the environment like?
What's the day like when we'repouring?
Is it a frost, is it?
And just that work we've donenow has got our slabs to where
they were, whereas before wejust trusted concrete.
Are they going to put a bit ofwater?
No, they're going to do thisand you know it's.
I don't know.
It seems the industry's beenwatered down a lot with the
knowledge and the you know theycan especially a slab, poor slab

(38:12):
and drive away.
The problem might happen to itfor 12 or two years later.
Yeah, they're well and trulygone.
So I don't know.
That's where I find theindustry a lot challenging now,
like you've really got to knowand look, go down a few rabbit
holes all the time, looking atdifferent things and whether
it's yeah, hey, how they paintedyou what sort of no more gaps
he uses on his skirting boardsand stuff to make what.
Now they spray everything.
It's different to how they usedto back roll everything and you

(38:32):
know different, like we stillwant the painter to say back,
roll the walls.
You know a lot of people justgo in and spray in the whole
house and say tip off your doors.
And stuff like painting the topand bottoms of the doors for
starters, like all these littlethings that we took for granted
as well, you would have been thesame what we got an old school
apprenticeship, I suppose wherethings were just people just did
their job properly and mytrades quote the house, like I
don't give them a po for a price.

(38:53):
So I'm like quote for what youneed to do and do it properly,
quote to do it properly, andthen that's the bill.
And if we lose the job, well,joe, blow down the road can have
it, because he obviouslydoesn't allow for something.
So but that comes back to, Ithink, mindset, like you're
saying before, like we lost a, areally substantial project that
we quoted, done ourpre-construction process, got
paid for that, but we were happywe lost it because we quoted it
, we knew our numbers, we'dbuilt houses for the other

(39:16):
family and then we thought, well, you know, that's our best
price we put forward.
If another builder wants totravel an hour from town to come
and do that job for that client, well, they've missed something
.
But two years ago I would havebeen upset about that, whereas
your mindset changes once youcan shift that and your team
like well, next project yeah,yeah, I think like again, that's
another really important partof the industry and for trades
and builders to be aware of.
Like you don't have to competeon price, no, and it is hard for

(39:40):
us, like we, that's the biggestmindset thing we've got.
Like we, you know, got a fewtwo million bands around.
We've.
Look we.
A lot of people say, why do youhave so big overheads?
I said, well, I can't do what Iwant to do with the quality of
my work and how I want to lookafter my customers without the
team that I've built.
Now it hasn't just happenedovernight, it's been 12 years of
going up and then coming backdown and the team we've got.
Now it costs what it costs,unfortunately, but in the last

(40:01):
12 months, the projects we'vehanded over, the satisfaction,
it's like the old days again.
Go have a coffee with any oneof our clients the last 12
months and that's unfortunatelythe team we need to do that job.

Speaker 1 (40:11):
It's hard, isn't it?
Because people don't understand, like people think, that a
builder is someone with a nailbag on that is on site and just
managing the trades.
Yep, it's hard.
I think it's people hard forpeople to get their head around,
and not only just clients, buteven designers, architects and
tradies you get that comment alot.

Speaker 2 (40:33):
Oh, you're not on the tools anymore.
I said if I had my choice I'dbe on the tools every day of the
week, but I can't like.
And I had a builder tell meonce unfortunately he passed
away and he was great.
He taught me a lot.
He said you won't make anymoney if you're not on the tools
and that's going back 10 yearsago.
I'll never forget theconversation with him.
But the industry's changed somuch that if we weren't on the
tools doing the paperwork, theproblems that we'd have with
those jobs would be astronomical.

Speaker 1 (40:54):
But it's not only that.
There's been a fewconversations in the Live Life
Build community about this atthe moment and it's important
for builders and tradies tounderstand this.
For you to be able to buildyour site, team up and have a
certain, you need a certainamount of work to cover your
overheads, yep, and so to keepthat certain amount of work to
cover your overheads, yeah, andso to keep that certain amount

(41:15):
of work, you have to have a bigpipeline of work 100 and so
somebody's got to be managingthat.
Yeah, so I only just had a.
We had a big team meeting withmy site team last week and I was
explaining to them like withthe size team we have now, we
need a certain volume of work on, yeah, and to get that volume
of work and keep that consistent, I need to have um 16 to 20

(41:37):
projects in pre-construction yep, all the time.

Speaker 2 (41:40):
Yep, so huge and that's a lot of work of
pre-construction like that, with, you know, quote and repricing,
chasing up.
You might be going to drive andcatch up with the client, the
architect, or you might be goingto see a supplier.

Speaker 1 (41:50):
Might be a new product and that's a lot of work
similar with your side.
You're probably more but umlike you, and so that that's a.
That's a full-time gig just onits own.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
Yeah, yeah, well that's even like my role now.
Like I've trained jacko, he'smy main man up.
I call him the constructionmanager now.
He was the site supervisor.
He's coming to the office nowbecause we've found this big
lull between when the job'squoted comes through.
It's still got to get ready forconstruction, there's still
ordering of windows and all thatpre-ordering, so the job runs
smoothly.

Speaker 1 (42:17):
I feel like some of the trades have no like these
trucks just show up to site andthey have no idea.

Speaker 2 (42:23):
Yeah, like we're doing all those PVC windows now,
some of them could be 12-weekturnaround on order.
So sometimes you're orderingthe day you sign the body
contract and then 12 weeks timeyou're starting the job.
You're trying to chase a permitbecause you know even just
putting a permit in can be hard.
You might be chasing a surveyor, or you might be chasing the
council, or you know, there's somany things that no job ever is
the same.
There's always a surprisearound the corner.

Speaker 1 (42:43):
Yeah, so just we got a little.
We went on another tangentthere, but what?
Um, so you were going topossibly take off and move to
cans.
I'm surprised you could putyour dirt bike in the back of
the datsun, to be honest yeah meseven daddo 720 I had.

Speaker 2 (42:58):
Yeah, we built a tray for it and, um, I couldn't
hardly fit behind the steeringwheel.

Speaker 1 (43:01):
That was half the battle um, but yeah, and then
like a builder said hey, youcan't leave town, we're gonna,
we'll put you on whatever.
So you did all the work andstuff for him.

Speaker 2 (43:09):
But yeah, um, then you obviously finished your
apprenticeship yeah, finished itand then I wanted to make sure
I spent some time with him again.
But then I just wanted to learnwhat other builders were doing.
There was a few other buildersaround town.
There was an old fella wecalled crazy colt.
He was old school carpenter.
Like I learned to build windowsby like windows by hand, on site
stairs, all that old-fashionedcarpentry, everything was done
batting roofs, all theold-fashioned stuff that I

(43:31):
didn't get taught in the otherapprenticeship and it was
awesome, like it was just.
And then I built a goodrelationship with him so I'd sub
you back to him.
And then another builder movedback from darwin need hands.
I'd sub you with him and I fora couple years just floated
around and then studied nightschool.
That was every single wednesdayand every second friday,
saturday for night school, forme license, which was an hour
and a half away, but then andyou had a young family at this

(43:52):
point yeah, I built me firsthouse at 19 and then built me a
first house at 19, had first kidat 19, so, plus doing all this
other stuff on the side.

Speaker 1 (43:59):
So anyone that's fucking making excuses.

Speaker 2 (44:01):
You don't have any time like seriously you got to
make time and then, like, evenwhen I was doing my
apprenticeship, I was stillworking at iga three nights a
week because I wanted to build ahouse.
I mean back then, think so, youwere working all day on the
tools and then I'd finish at 4o'clock and my boss was really
good at that.
Sometimes I'd be a bit late towork at IJ and then you'd work
till 8 o'clock three nights aweek and then some weekends
you'd go work on the farm andmilk because there was more
money that you could earn.

(44:22):
All I wanted to do was build ahouse.
That was my goal and where it'sgone.
But my first house was 16squares that's what I could
afford at the time, cost me 160grand back then, like it was
well, it's still there today.
Um, and it's um, yeah, just theway things have changed now.
Like I look at, say, being awell, newly qualified and doing

(44:42):
that, versus now, newlyqualified wants a four-bedroom
house, they want the pool, theywant the shed and the other
house is too dear.
Million dollars of dirt, yeah,and a nice car and everything
like that.
Like, had nothing wrong withthe hylux, but I didn't have the
flashes hylux, but it got me by.
Look, I sold me dirt bike tobuy me work trailer because I
was like, well, I need a worktrailer so I can do some cashies
, because I can't fit everythingon the back of the ute anymore.
So I don't know, I think it'sjust where people sit in life

(45:08):
and where they want to be.
And you know, I now I thinkthat was stupid.
But I had some nice cars and wehad some good things and we did
some great stuff.
But I'm like I've wasted a lotof money on four-wheel drives
over the years.
Um, yeah, so yeah did all thatand um that progressed on to
being a builder then in thesmall town and then a bloke that
taught me where I did myapprenticeship.
Um, come on board with me andhe was like my main builder.

(45:29):
So I had him.
And then, crazy cole, we hadhad a worker and he'd go work on
the farm for a bit and thenwe'd get his worker for a bit.
Then his worker wouldn't goback.
So then I end up having toemploy him and then I had to go
do all cole's work as well,because I felt bad because I've
just taken his worker off him.
Um, so it's funny how thingswork out.
And that's jacko.
He's my main man now today.
Yeah so, and the other fellathat was with me helped him get

(45:49):
his license.
He's out on his own now in townas well.
So yeah, it's been a revolvingdoor, but I did get a very
spoiled.
I suppose I had a lot of goodcarpenters come through from the
older generation, so that was ahuge adjustment, especially in
the last sort of six years whereyou lose those sort of guys
because they move on and thecaliber of the next one's coming
up.
Not that they're not good andnot good fellas, they just
weren't taught how we weretaught.
So then you had to startlearning.
How do I teach them what I wantthem, how I want them to act?

Speaker 1 (46:12):
every huge, every uh, every year.

Speaker 2 (46:15):
There's just a few little secrets getting lost in
there, oh huge and that's whereI like I really, you know, can
pick and choose where you wantto be in your business.
I really want to come back towhere I can train these
apprentices.
So nothing better than teachingsomeone how to hang a door and
they hang that door and just tolook on their face, or that's
what I enjoy about the industryand that's where I'm trying to
build my team up, because I'dlove to be back there teaching

(46:36):
this new generation, not being atrade school teacher, but just
teaching my guys coming throughso they can love the industry,
like how we got taught to lovethe industry with timbers and
all that's getting lost now.

Speaker 1 (46:44):
Yeah, like it's just really there's a plan, build it,
let's go the next one yeah,well, look, I'm definitely no
expert at it, but like Iremember during my
apprenticeship, like my boss,like the timber would turn
upside and we, we did a fewhardwood frames, which was just
absolutely flogged yeah, I waslucky, I missed that.
And then um, and then cypress,like we have.
I don't know, do you havecypress down your way?

Speaker 2 (47:04):
no, no we had a lot, a lot of oregon for like back in
the day, but no, no, not muchcypress I Mate, it was just
heavy as anything.

Speaker 1 (47:15):
So the timbers would turn up to site and I did part
of my apprenticeship with myboss and his brother and the
timber would turn up to site andhe'd go oh, that's that timber,
that's that timber I know a fewtimbers now when they turn up
to site but you see theapprentices now and a lot of
them can't even you tell themover and over and over again and
like they can't even tell youthe difference between a treated

(47:36):
piece of framing, a bit ofpre-prime timber, a bit of
finger jointed pine, like justreal basic stuff.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
There's nothing better.
Like we're doing a reno at theminute and they're cutting the
floor up and the apprenticeswere cutting.
I was like, oh, there's nothingbetter that smell of murray
pine being cut.
How'd you know it was that?
You didn't even look at it.
I said I don't know what thesmell is.
It's just from years of workingwith those sort of beautiful
timbers which are all gone now.
Like we used to do the fix-outswith KD hardwood, now
everything's prime pine and youknow your miters can be filled
up if they have to be, whereasback then you didn't get a

(48:01):
second chance.
It had to be a tight cut.

Speaker 1 (48:05):
Like there's things like I don't know about you in
your way, but like some of thepre-primers, bloody, two, three
mil thick and it chips, and thenyour painter's got to try and
we find on it window reveals alot like it'll chip off.

Speaker 2 (48:16):
It'll be that thick or chip, and then you got to try
and patch up, especially on theexternal corner, and it's just.

Speaker 1 (48:21):
And then, if you, for any reason you got to rip a
reveal down, like if you're, andI say, wet area, where you got
six mil bill or whatever and youand your cladding's still on
the outside.
So you've got to rip the revealdown a little bit, trying to
get that pencil round, edge onthat pre-prime shit.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
Well, even something simple, like we used to arras
all our architraves before weput them on.
That's not done anymore.

Speaker 1 (48:39):
Well, yeah you can on the pre-prime no because now
they're spraying everything.

Speaker 2 (48:42):
They don't want the arras edge because it doesn't.
So there's all these in theirtrailer anymore.

Speaker 1 (48:49):
Yeah, yeah, we're still pushing for that.
I actually did some work on thetools only a few months ago and
for the life of me I couldn'tfind me a little hand plane that
used to be in my nail bag.
Yeah yeah.
I went to the local tool shops.
I went to three shops, couldn'teven find one.
No, no.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
That was a standard nail bag requirement.
Yeah, just a nice little one.
They've all got squares intheir pocket.
But yeah, no, it's even likethe 3mm quirks around doors and
windows when you put your arcson just these little things that
you're just trying to driveinto them.
I don't know, just such amentality.

Speaker 1 (49:19):
Do you make your team go around and mark all their
quirks?
Yep.

Speaker 2 (49:22):
You just have a little gauge block.

Speaker 1 (49:23):
You mark all your.

Speaker 2 (49:24):
I just made them all one out of a bit of timber and I
just got the 3mm quirk.
Give more one.
Yeah, normally now they'remaking their own because they
keep losing them.
But yeah, just the littlethings where you can try to try
and teach them those littlethings and just make sure you
got your nice quirk around yourdoor before it meets your jam,
and just those little things,like even backing a door off,
little, just all these littlethings that are just getting
lost.

Speaker 1 (49:43):
But yeah, I don't know it's a big amount of
carboners that don't know what.
Backing a door off is no idea.

Speaker 2 (49:47):
It's crazy yep, so it's just um, it's going to be
interesting the next 10 yearsgoing to be a wild ride.

Speaker 1 (49:51):
I think it's funny about because, like a lot of
people we've had on the podcastlately, builders and tradies,
like everyone's talking aboutteaching the young generation,
like the next lot of peoplecoming through, and I think it's
incredibly valuable.
But it is a hard task becausethere's a lot of us tradies out
there that want to teach theyoung people the right skills,
but it's it seems to be veryhard to find the out there that

(50:12):
want to teach the young peoplethe right skills, but it's it
seems to be very hard to findthe young people that want to
learn them.

Speaker 2 (50:16):
Yeah, 100%, like we're very sported and we've got
a lot of farm kids and we findthem fantastic because they've
worked on the farm with theirmum or dad or they've just
learnt that.
I suppose call it common sensejust working around machinery or
knowing what a spanner is orwhat a shifter is, or just
general knowledge of tools.
Yeah, skyhawks, yeah,left-handed hammers, all that
sort of stuff.
So yeah, and it is.
It is tricky like um, I'veactually got my young fella

(50:37):
wants to do a school-basedapprenticeship and, like my wife
said, I feel sorry for youbecause you're going to be
worked pretty hard like you wantthem.
You see a lot of father sonscome through and I want him to
be worked hard because I wanthim to know, to want to do the
job, like not in a cruel way,but like I'll send him with the
boys and I don't want, I wanthim to be on the shovel, I don't
want him to be precious oranything like that and I I don't
know whether people comingthrough, whether it's how
they're brought up, whetherthey've been, I know, band-aided

(50:59):
and you know may or they canget away with that.
I mean that whole school systemI don't get me started is wrong.
That's wrong.
I mean.
I remember we used to getbelted every now and then with a
seal, paper roll and stuff.
You did something wrong.
You couldn't do it these days,but that's just how it was, and

(51:20):
you didn't make the mistakeagain.

Speaker 1 (51:23):
I don't agree with that.
I got the same and made it it,definitely with my depression,
anxiety and stuff.
Like it made me not want to goto work.
But there's got to be like Idon't know, look for any young
people out there listening.
If you want to send comments,reach out or whatever and give
us some ideas.
But like for me, it's ano-brainer.
Like if you're a young personout there that's coming into the

(51:44):
industry, it doesn't matterwhat trade it is.
Like you just head down, bum up, you get there in the morning.
Like you said before, youshould know what you have to do.
Like if you've been working ona, I'm just pulling shit out of
the thin air now.
But like if you're a tiler andyou're working with a tiler on
the day before or you've justdone the waterproofing, you
should know that when you turnup or you've got the trailer
locked on, you're going to bedoing the bedding.

(52:05):
Like, get the buckets out, getso that when your boss finishes
talking to the builder orwhatever it's good to go, or if
you're yeah, we've started totick the box sheets, like
especially framing's an easy onebecause you can do from go to.

Speaker 2 (52:17):
Oh hey, do this, we've done programs.
So like I've one of myapprentices just qualified, did
his first frame there a fewweeks back, the building
inspector come, made him walkthrough the building inspector,
not one problem.
He went through that, tickedthe box and followed and did a
fantastic job.
But it's just sometimes aboutme, as a builder too, educating
myself on how I can now thatnext generation.
How can I help them?
And these ticked the box sheets.
They don't have to worry, theycan just worry about what

(52:41):
they're doing now, if theinstallations behind the wall
junction, before we're puttingthe paper on just these little
things.
And it's been more again backto the office, more procedures
and stuff in the office so thaton-site crew can learn and then
that first-year apprentice canlook at the list and go.
I can go do those L bracketsnext because we haven't done
that yet or whatever it is, Idon't know.
I've found that has helped us alot.

Speaker 1 (52:59):
Yeah, it's huge Having that system or checklist
just to work them through.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
Yeah, we even started doing transportables as well,
because we found like with ourplumbers and electricians they
were saying the same thing withtheir apprentices.
So we built a couple just astrial, just to let my
apprentices go and do a stickframe with the list and work out
window head heights.
And it doesn't matter if theymuck it up, it's out on the farm
, it's.
You know it'll be right when wefinish it.
No-transcript.

(53:33):
Electricians went out therewith their apprentices and let
them rough in the house andwe've done a couple of them now
and that's where people go wrong, is not?

Speaker 1 (53:39):
people like?
They're so tight on the pricingof the job that they're scared
for anyone to make a mistake, sothey baby their apprentices and
they don't, because the realityis you only learn from making
mistakes.

Speaker 2 (53:49):
Well, I'm capable for it.
Like, you'll get a team ofchippies and you know, say,
someone hangs doors really well,someone does frames really well
, and you get in the mindset ofwe're running low on those hours
, especially in a job.
I will send that bike to thefixer, he'll do it in half the
time and I can take fullaccountability for that now that
I do and I go well, no, they'regonna have to do that day, but
that fix that probably two dayslonger, but then the next one
they might be one day longer andthen the next one they might be

(54:11):
on time, because they've got tolearn and the next one.
They'll be a day I'll take fullresponsibility a lot of the time
now, with no excuses to go.
If that apprentice has got tohis fourth year, he doesn't know
what haven't I taught him why?
What can I do better for thenext one, so that they can come
along and enjoy it?

Speaker 1 (54:24):
because I see my trades all the time and I've got
to keep reminding them likethat you've got to.
If they make mistakes, it's onme, I'll take the hit, I'll take
the loss, but they, unless theymake mistakes, they're not
going to learn.
No, you're just going to throwthem in the deep end yep, I
reckon.

Speaker 2 (54:37):
And they love it, they'll, and then they.
Especially if that apprenticeis upset because he's made that
mistake, then he remembers nexttime that.
And by going in the deep endthey remember.
I was the same Like give me abook, I wouldn't read it.
But if I watch a video or getshown how to do it there, I'll
go do it.
But then by having to do ityourself, you remember.
If someone keeps showing youeach time, you just don't
remember.

Speaker 1 (54:56):
Yeah, one of my biggest learnings, mate, was my
boss went away on and so mysecond part of my apprenticeship
it was I worked side by sidewith the boss.
He had some other carpentergangs that did stuff, but we did
a lot of stuff together so Igot to do a lot of stuff that
people didn't get to do.
I went to some meetings andstuff and helped, did a lot of

(55:18):
setting out and that.
But he went on a holiday for aweek and left me to do a fit out
and like with my previous boss.
I was a gun at all theskirtings afters, cupboard
shelving and stuff, but I'dnever hung a door.
Yep and um.
He showed me one door before heleft.
He like spent 20 minutes withme and he's gone on this holiday

(55:39):
and I was freaking out like themonday, tuesday, like I reckon
I spent a day and a half likejust trying to get like these
two doors right and I wasfreaking out.
I was like he's going to comeback, he's going to fucking go
off his nut because I justhaven't done anything and I just
kept at it.
I didn't have a smoker, Ididn't have lunch, I just kept

(56:00):
going and going and going andI'd figured it out and I got it
right and then I just smashed Idon't know what.
There was nine, 10, 11 doors inthis house and I got the fit
out done.
By the time he came back he wasstoked.
I fucked a few up.
He went around the job with meand he showed me.
But because I had done it andthen he walked through the job

(56:20):
with me and he pointed out whatI'd fucked up, I learnt because
I knew what I'd done and it wasvery.
You might have known you'vedone it and thought I'll see how
it goes, but it was.
It was really easy for him tosay oh, dwayne, like you need to
, you should be putting squarelines on your jams when you hang
your doors, like all your jamsneed to be like.
Yeah, and it's a pet hate ofmine now, like I can't stand
when you walk through a houseand the bottom of the door jams

(56:42):
like there might be a tile orsomething on the floor, yeah,
and the jams are twisted like itdrives me nuts.

Speaker 2 (56:48):
Yeah, I'm the same.
When you get two skirtingboards and you see in some
houses they don't line up whenthey hit the architrave, it's
like it's not hard, like we putthe little clout behind it.
We do and you tap it back andjust those little tricks, like I
.
I was bad, like, especially withcovid coming and going, you're
trying to put the jobs in and Iwasn't on site all the time and
I started to learn those littlethings to teach the apprentices
and yeah, it's amazing, like ifyou get a good, if you get the
right apprentice and a good crew, it's it's just so exciting to

(57:10):
show them those little tips andtricks that you take for granted
, that you know, yeah, yeah yep,so um mate, obviously, then
you've come through, you'veyou've jumped into business,
like so you've been building.

Speaker 1 (57:20):
Now for what?
12?
Years, 12 years, I reckon yeahyep, look what's some of the
challenge, like what's thebiggest challenges you've had in
that time?

Speaker 2 (57:27):
definitely managing trades and they're, I guess,
being younger, being a youngerbuilder as well with the older
trades and clients managingclients like um, since learning
to choose your clients.
But I guess that comes fromexperience too, and and this is
where I like having a team,because the all our team deal
with that client when they comethrough and, um, you know, you
sort of get to see what theclients do, how they've come

(57:48):
through over the last couple ofyears, why that job didn't work,
and same thing again, takingaccountability for what we can
do right and how we can fix it.
We've had some jobs and youknow, I don't know a builder yet
that hasn't had a mistake orsomething happen that can't be
fixed.
But you know, depending on theclient, it could be a different

(58:09):
resolve.
So, you know, with bringingthrough our pre-construction
process, if that client can'tchoose the toll they want, they
carry on.
We start to see these few alarmbells earlier, earlier on, and
we can make the call not to dothat job.
Um, and then you know we canchoose whether they're they've
got to make sure we're the rightfit for them and they're the
right fit for us, and that'sprobably been one of the biggest
things I've.
We've seen change in theindustry that you can actually
choose yeah, and it is hard in asmall town because there's not
always that much work out there,but yeah it's better than how
many people in your town.

(58:30):
What have we got?
Seven chippies.
And then I've got an estimatorIn your town.

Speaker 1 (58:34):
How many people in?

Speaker 2 (58:35):
your town.
What have we got?
7,000 or something.
Oh shit, yeah, that is small.
Yeah, it's not.

Speaker 1 (58:42):
We would be lucky to go half an hour either way,
that's another really importantlesson for people that listen,
because I get so many trades andbuilders say to me oh, I can't
do well, in my town I've onlygot $10,000 or $20,000.
You've got 7,000 people in yourtown.

Speaker 2 (58:55):
You've turned over $8 million a year.
You've just got to adapt.
I won't say no to anything forthe right client.
It is hard.
We would love to build customnew homes and do our commercial
jobs, but there is such asatisfaction to, in a renovation
, to go to someone's house wherethey've lived in it for a while
.
They might only want to add abedroom and a bathroom on the
back of the house, but they justlove it.
When you finish it, that's justa new, new room for them.
And yeah, unfortunately becauseI love my job that's we're

(59:18):
doing a lot more renovations butwe'll do anything from a
bathroom reno right through,because I like what you said,
but it's all about the client.
It's all about the client.
I don't care.
I'll go build a shed forsomeone if they want me to Like.
It's all about that clientrelationship now, and that's
really been a focus over thelast 12 months.

Speaker 1 (59:32):
We're exactly the same.
Well, the job has to be.
Well now, and I think you'regoing in the same direction.
Like for us, now the job has tobe good quality materials,
healthy building.

Speaker 2 (59:43):
We turned one down the other day which I never
would normally, because theyjust weren't listening.
Like we have to hit theseven-star energy rate in
Victoria and this one wouldn'tquite hit it, and like we're not
worried.
I'm like you should be worried,like you should want to build
this as energy efficient as youcan.
And you know we use all theproclimate wraps and we've gone
down that rabbit warren and Idon't even think it costs any

(01:00:04):
more money.
It's just about you know howcan we build that home better
and that's our standard now wewill do that.
We've got our first one comingup where we're going to wrap the
roof.
No one else is wrapping roofs,but I feel it's going to be
better for our home and it'sgoing to make that home last,
because I don't want someoneringing me in four years' time
with a problem that I could havesolved now.
We got a blower door test donethe other day on one, the first

(01:00:27):
one.
We'd done two airtight and wewere down to five air changes a
minute.

Speaker 1 (01:00:29):
An hour, an hour, sorry, yeah, so we're right on
that limit of, especially in ourclimate.

Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
So then we're looking at HRVs and it is very much on
that limit of how far is too far, especially talking passive
house and all those which I amnot an expert on at all.
But it's more for us to.
The more we're educatingourselves, the more we want to
build that home better.
And you know, unfortunatelythis is the hard thing with the
industry if we go locking thatup to airtight, well then we're
doing worse things than what wecould be doing.

Speaker 1 (01:00:55):
So well, we're um in the new year.
I've been trying to organizefor the last few months and
we've been too busy, but, um, inthe new year I've actually got
stewie shelton coming up.
We're going to blow a door testfour or five of our jobs we've
done in the last 18 monthsBecause I sit on the fence with
Passive House.
I think it's a good concept.
I think for me it works reallywell in cold climates I'm more

(01:01:17):
about.
For me, my core values are Iwant to build healthy homes, but
I want to create healthyenvironments for the people that
live in them.
Yeah, and for me, being lockedin an airtight box that breathes
for you is not healthy.
Yeah, and I'm probably going toupset some people by saying
this, but I think we've got alot of sickness in this planet.

(01:01:40):
We need to touch and feel andbreathe.
So, yeah, I'm not convinced onthe whole passive house thing.
Like for me, my values arebuilding using sustainably
sourced products, um, productsthat can be 100 recycled, that
they're in use, and you'retrying to use a lot more natural
products, lots of timbers,stones, um, all those types of

(01:02:02):
things.
But it is really good feelingwhen you attract clients that
are like-minded and, like youtouched on before, like exactly
the same, the client is moreimportant to us than the job.
So, as long as the job meetsour values which is also
integrity, honesty,communication, education is one
of our values we'll do the job.

Speaker 2 (01:02:22):
I don't care if it's a pool, pavilion, a house, a
shed, but it's all about thatclient experience and client
relationship and we neverthought about that in the last
12 years or last 10 years, neverworried about it, and it wasn't
till, yeah, joining live lifebuilding, starting to work on
the business and look at howmuch and then start going back
over the problems on the jobsand what caused those problems
or things like that.
Or and you start, it comes backto the client every step of the

(01:02:45):
way, whether it's you know theyhave a fight with the tradesman
on site or whatever it's beenin the past.
The last 12 months has justbeen awesome.
Like you get a phone call froma client.
They ring up telling you howmuch they loved it.
Or you have a site meeting.
They'll be talking about whathappened on the footy on the
weekend or whatever.
You know it's a differentpersona.
It's a different what I, whatwe do for we love doing it.
So last thing you want to do ishave an unhappy client.

(01:03:06):
So so you?

Speaker 1 (01:03:08):
like, obviously you said that was a issue with the
clients and stuff.
Knowing what you know now, yeah, but I'm sure you've had all
the things that most businesseshave.

Speaker 2 (01:03:18):
Like you, you've had trouble with your numbers, your
finances, oh yeah oh yeah, whenyou come back to finances like
we had turnover, we're lucky.
We had cash flow.
We didn't know what cash flow.
Well, now I look.
Lucky, we had cash flow.
We didn't know what cash flow.
Well, now I look back at ituneducated, I didn't know what
cash flow was.
We just had it coming inbecause we had the jobs coming
in.
And it wasn't until you get afew breaks in the traffic that
you start going oh, I need topay that bill, I need to get
that stage come.
Then it puts that pressure onof.

(01:03:41):
You've got to get rob and peterto pay paul.
So once you start learning allthat, it helps a lot.
But that's where we also builtthe office up, because with cash
flow, you need the jobs comingin, but if you're not quoting
the jobs, you can't get the job.
So it's, it's a, it's a bigcircle in it, but it's
everywhere I went back.
It went back to well, right nowI need to build an office that
works to help.
We'll fix the office first andwe'll get that done first and

(01:04:01):
then we'll work on site.
And that's been a couple yearprogression and that's where
it's got to now.

Speaker 1 (01:04:05):
Yeah, so what advice would you give mate for?
For people out there I knowmaybe listen to this podcast and
see and maybe questioning whythey do what they do like I
reckon you need a biggest thingis talk to people.

Speaker 2 (01:04:16):
Like I'd never talked to builders until now because
you always the local builder,never liked you because you're a
competition.
But now I'll speak to people oninstagram or reach out.
I got a builder from tassiering the other day just for a
chat.
Like just awesome.
Like we got a little brekkiegroup going in shepherd and now
with a few builders that are allsimilar and we don't have an
agenda, we just go there to havea chat and it's amazing what
comes out of the chat.
So I'd say, yeah, bit of backto anyone.

(01:04:36):
You go get some mentoring.
There's a you know a fewplatforms out there, like
elevate been great for us to beable to just learn.
We're carpenters.
At the end of the day, 90 of uswe're not, we're not doctors,
we're not lawyers, we don't knowthese things.
And like the live events iswhat I've loved, because you
have a beer or even having alunch with someone.
You just have a random chat andyou go, oh well, I didn't think
of that and oh, they've hadthat problem, we'll fix that

(01:04:57):
because they've had that, so wedon't have that problem.
So just get out there and chatto builders is probably the
biggest thing that's, and if youcan get with the right builders
, everyone's happy to have achat all trades should be uh
communicating across the boardplumbers, sparkies, tires, like
the whole one and the biggestthing.
I don't know you put yourself indifferent circles, but I feel
the circles we're in in theminute, with the builders we're
talking to, everyone wants toget better, everyone wants to

(01:05:19):
learn from each other and bebetter and I don't know, I've
never had that in the last 11years.
It's only really been the lastsix months.
Are you addicted to it?
Yeah, I love it.
Yeah, it's addicted.
To listen to podcasts.
I I think the main reason I goto the gym for the morning, even
if I've run on the treadmillsaid listen to a podcast quickly
, like just to get that onelittle thing out of it that you
can add in.
And you know I'm trying to getmy staff into it.
Some of them look at me a bitstrange but yeah, just by them

(01:05:41):
doing their calendar now.

Speaker 1 (01:05:42):
We'll work on it, we'll get there, yeah are you
doing anything else besides theum exercise and the regular
routines?

Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
no, that's, that's.
That's mainly what I'm doing.
Yeah, breath work.
No, I've done a bit of breathwork at a few events, but I
haven't got into that yet.
I'm trying to do the journaling.
Yeah, um, yeah, I mean, it'shard.
The last sort of two months isour busy period and it's hard
enough to breathe sometimes, letalone fit something else in.
So your breath, your breathworks, just general breathing

(01:06:12):
every day, exactly right.
But you're having to run aroundthe paddock trying to catch a
horse, so I get caught.

Speaker 1 (01:06:14):
Oh, that's a good segue because I wanted to go
into.
Like your, you've um also got apretty successful business on
top of building, haven't you?
Your wife operates yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:06:23):
So the wife's a vet nurse and loves animals and um,
unfortunately, we're onlybuilders, not millionaires, so
we couldn't um go into the horsesports.
We do a lot of camp drafting,cutting, and it got expensive.
Had to buy the truck, we had tobuy the caravan.
I was like this is tooexpensive, we need a business
for it.
So, yeah, we breed umperformance horses for the yeah,
for the camp drafting industry,and it's been a great passion,
like my wife loves, and it'sgood to good to see her

(01:06:44):
enjoyment.
And, yeah, the vets get a lotof money off us, that's for sure
.
It's expensive in that regard,but it's just great, even with
my kids, like I, can get homefrom work and see the arena and
dust kicking up everywhere andthey're out there riding around
and they're not sitting insideon technology.
They're out there, you know,chasing each other around and

(01:07:07):
you can be having a beer withsomeone and talking to them and
everyone's on a level playingfield.
Yeah, no one.
Yeah, there's some very wealthybusiness people or you know,
but you're all there in the dustwith a hat on and everyone's
having a chat and everyone'sthere for the same reasons.
And, oh, it's been greatwatching our kids grow up and
and help with a bit of theiranxiety and stuff too, going
through that um school periodfrom transition from high school
to primary school to highschool, and you know they're

(01:07:28):
doing really well with theirhorse sports and learning.
Being with these other kidsthat ride horses and they're not
worried about what brand ofshirt they got on and all that
sort of stuff like it takes allthat away and it's just um,
you're out there with youranimal having fun.

Speaker 1 (01:07:39):
Yeah, there's a lot to unpack, I think with that.
I love how you um like youthought of it as a business, yep
, and we're still working on it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:48):
I'd love to get my wife involved in Live Life Build
and show her all these things,but because the building
business is so busy it's taken abit of a backward seat.
But we had Linsim BorderCollies and Linsim Jack Russells
as well, so we used to breed alot.
Everything breeds at our joint.
We finished breeding kids, sonow we're breeding animals so,
yeah, because you got four kidstoo.
Yeah, I got four kids, yeah, so,um, they're, um, yeah, really

(01:08:11):
enjoyable.
Now they're at a good age, theycan, um, especially my eldest,
he's 15, so he's always helpingaround the farm and, like he
messaged me when he got off theplane, they need another bale of
hay.
So he'll sort that out tonightwith the tractor and it's just
great being able to bring themup, like we had bobcats and
excavators, and from an earlyage he was out there helping me
dig a trench, or just being ableto give him that other side of
life and, I guess, give him abit of responsibility.
Let him sit on that excavatorand I won't show him how to

(01:08:32):
operate.
He can work out what thelever's doing.
He's in a big sand pit, so butnow he's quite a good help.
So I don't know been able togive our kids, you know, ride
motorbikes around and give themhear a bit of quiet.
You think what's happened andthey've they've played around,
done something wrong.
The other day they had it tobogging out snow, to bogging out
behind one of the motorbikes onthe grass I love me grass and

(01:08:52):
it.
I was like I'll let him go, butyeah, one stack didn't hit the
water tank and it's like, well,we'll learn not to do that next
time.
So I don't know, yeah, verysport to be out of town and
trying to bring our kids up, youknow, so they can do whatever
they want to do.
Like it's got my son coming up.
He really wants to be acarpenter.
So well, he went, did smallengines because he loves
motorbikes and thought that'sbetter as a hobby.
So yeah, just trying to I don'tknow no expert in it, but just

(01:09:15):
trying to help them.
And the other daughter wants toget into equine and things like
that.
So just trying to help themfind their interest, I suppose
the horses we've only like.

Speaker 1 (01:09:22):
As you know, we've talked about a bit recently.
We um like we're only justgetting into the horse early
days.
Um, currently they're both.
My girls are sharing a horse,but that's very quickly looking
like becoming more horses.

Speaker 2 (01:09:34):
Yeah, one, then two, then 20.

Speaker 1 (01:09:37):
oh, mate, now we're bloody looking at other moving,
other houses and all sorts ofshit, but um yeah the horse is
the cheap bit that's all therest that goes with it, but it's
oh, mate, I'm getting a lot outof as well.
Like I can't get believe anincredible animal the horse is
well I'm from like a motocrossbackground.

Speaker 2 (01:09:54):
I've never, like family, have had horses on farms
and stuff, but I've never beenaround them.
And it's fantastic, like nowwe've got foals coming out that
we had had to pull one out theother morning early in the
morning and a bit of bondingexperience.
But now watching it come outand be alive and just say it's
just awesome, like that's unreal, yeah, and the kids get a bit
responsible.
They've got to feed the dogs,they've got to feed the horses,
they've got to look after them.
Like there's a lot more thanjust that horse and just

(01:10:14):
watching them bond too.
Like my daughter had one thatshe couldn't crack a whip on and
now she can crack a whip.
She goes to stockman challengesand just the way they're bonded
is together, like it's um, yeah, just not hop on and ride it.
There's a.
There's a lot of work behindthe scenes.

Speaker 1 (01:10:26):
They're um, they're.
They're very powerful and likeemotional animal that they'd
really make sense a lot, yeahwhat what's going on and how you
feel and like yeah, and evenjust the calmness being around
them.

Speaker 2 (01:10:36):
Like, um, like my son , he's very good at catching
them.
Now he's learned that.
You know it's your persona, youcan't you gotta.
You know they're a big animaland, um, especially the young
ones that we've got to handle,and it's it's.
It teaches them to be a bitdifferent how they react to a
situation as well.
It's in life, like you know, itcan be a bit fiery sometimes in
that cattle yard and you cansort of learn to adapt and be a
bit mellow about it, because assoon as you're worked up, then

(01:10:57):
they're worked up.
And now I've brought that intomy work, like if I get worked up
, well, then that person that isthere is going to be worked up.
If I can be calm about it,they'll be calm.
So yeah, it does it's true.

Speaker 1 (01:11:07):
You turn up the site dragging your feet around your
whole team's going to be likeenthusiastic, positive.
There's always a solution likeyour team's going to, and that's
the biggest thing with themistake.

Speaker 2 (01:11:15):
I'll tell my boys to let me know they go.
You won't yell at me.
I'm like no, I'd rather workwith you to find that issue.
I'm not going to give you aboutacross the year and say it
wasn't right.
Yeah, like yeah, yeah, there'sa lot from it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:24):
Yeah, but you um, you had a bit of a um I don't even
know what to call it likecelebrity experience, didn't you
?
Like you, for anyone thatwatches yellowstone?
You, oh yeah, you importedbuddy.
Yeah, we've done it.

Speaker 2 (01:11:36):
Yeah, we've imported the metallic cat and and done
that.
Um, we've just had well, we'vegot a couple of foals.
We've actually yeah, we embryotransplant a lot out of the
states.
We've just had a smooth talkingstyles foal just get born the
other day.
It's beautiful, I don't knowwho that is.

Speaker 1 (01:11:48):
But for anyone that watches yellow stain, what is it
?

Speaker 2 (01:11:50):
triple six yeah yeah, um matt imported some yeah,
semen across from that stallionand yeah, it's um.
Did it work?
Yeah, yeah, it's kicking goals.
Yeah, I actually sold it to ourcousin and he's taken on and
trained it and yeah, we've donethat side of it and some, yeah,
it's definitely good interest,like I.
Yeah, the wife loves it andjust watching them grow up, and
then that's a cheap exercise, ahno, no.

(01:12:12):
What do you like?
How does?

Speaker 1 (01:12:13):
that even work like.
Does it have to be here withinus?
Like it's frozen, I guess it'sfrozen.

Speaker 2 (01:12:17):
It comes across it's frozen, but you um go to the
breeding barn.
So we've got um.
We've actually got one near us.
We did have one about two and ahalf hours away when he where
my cousin lives as well, andthey're fantastic at breeding.
They're big into polo cross, sothey deal with all that.
For you.
It's got to be the right timingof cycles and yeah, there's a
whole lot in.
I'm lucky my wife deals withall that.
I just need to drive the truckand drop them off at the right
time.
So, yeah, there's there's a lotin and a lot of learning.

(01:12:39):
And yeah, it's um.
Look, we're still we're onlyeight years into that and we're
still learning every day withhow that goes.
And yeah, it's um.
You know we have breedingseasons that go backwards really
quick and some that go reallywell, but it's a hobby.
Yeah, it's, everyone's got tohave a hobby.

Speaker 1 (01:12:52):
So it's a hobby that you've.
You're running like a business.

Speaker 2 (01:12:55):
Yeah, exactly, yeah yeah, just trying to, because
it's, it is expensive.
Like we got the truck where yougo away on a weekend.
Like you got fuel, you've gotall those expenses and you know,
like everyone thinks buildersare millionaires, it's um,
you've got to have more thanjust what you're doing to get by
.
But it also makes everyoneaccountable too, like and and,
and.
It gives us a reason to do whatwe do.
Like on a weekend, you'll begoing away doing something else.

(01:13:17):
I'd be working every weekend ifI didn't have that knock off on
.
Now, knock off on the oddfriday and we go away and it's.
It's created a differentwork-life balance.

Speaker 1 (01:13:24):
Yeah, but it's really I think it's really important.
Like camille and I, everythingwe do is a business, like even
the farm we've got at the moment, like everything is set up as a
business.
So even though it's a hobby andit's, it's our passion and it's
our goal yep like it's.

Speaker 2 (01:13:36):
We've got aspirations .
To move that on again.

Speaker 1 (01:13:39):
It's just um, we had a bit of a tough breeding season
there.

Speaker 2 (01:13:42):
That cost a bit and it makes you wonder why you do
it.
But it's no different tobuilding.
You have good and bad jobs.
You have good and bad thingsthat happen seasons.
So now we're building up again,like we've got three foals this
year and we'll build on thatfor next year.
And, yeah, again, like we doour building business, scale
everything back.
We went crazy and we had a lothappening with that breeding
side of things, scaled it backas well, like we only got three
foals this year but they're allquality.
So, yeah, it's um and then whatdo you?

Speaker 1 (01:14:03):
do?
You advertise them or you takethem to shows.

Speaker 2 (01:14:06):
We normally go up to Tamworth for a big sale every
year, but the last couple ofyears we've sold them out of the
paddock just through knowingpeople and it's been really good
that way.
And now we're starting to seethem come through and see how
they perform and how they go on.
And yeah, it's awesome seeingyour brand out there getting
around.
Because you put a little brandon the side of the hip and now
you can see that getting aroundeverywhere, the hm everywhere.
So that's, I'm pretty exciting.

(01:14:26):
We'll have to talk horses.
Are they quarter horses?
Yeah, quarter horses, but we'vegot stock horses as well.
So, um, the girls have just gotinto something new is the stock
horse showing.
I'm a bit more of a fast pacedsort of person, so they've been
doing a bit of that stock horseshowing, but again it's all
behind the scenes, like that'sall breeding our brand and
making our horses win, or makingour horses be seen, because my
girls love them and they treatthem better than me half the

(01:14:48):
time.

Speaker 1 (01:14:48):
They get treated.
So I didn't.
I'm still trying to sort of getmy head around how it all works
.
Like we just went to theWarwick Radio it was on the
other weekend biggest radio inAustralia.

Speaker 2 (01:14:57):
Yeah, it's good up there.

Speaker 1 (01:14:58):
Man, it's massive, but it's the first time we've
ever hung around to the end onthe sunday and just listen to
like the awards and um trophiesand things, and I couldn't
believe it.
Like the right, like peoplemust, like breeders must pick
riders and then put their horseunder that rider and then the
horse is just as important asthe rider, 100%.

(01:15:18):
So they're talking about the,the rider, but the horse is also
getting the trophy and bandanaand that's what it's all about.

Speaker 2 (01:15:24):
Like it is got like.
We're by no means up the top ofthat chain, but we watch it.
And you look at some of thosegood riders now and it's like
sponsorship.
That horse has to be good to beunder that rider to win,
because then it can breed on orits foals can sell for money and
it's a huge, it's massive.
Yeah, they do an awesome job.
And some of those really goodguys they travel Australia just

(01:15:45):
doing that every day of the weekand, geez, they're a good hand
and you would have saw some ofthe best up there at Warwick.
Like they're some of the bestin Australia.

Speaker 1 (01:15:50):
Oh, I can't believe the prize money and I know it's
nothing.
My girls are just I don't know.
They're probably a couple ofmonths in.
They're getting trained now.

Speaker 2 (01:16:07):
They want to do about it and I'm like holy shit yeah
yeah, did you watch the redoubt?
Are they camp draft whileyou're up there?
Yeah, yeah, it was really.
It's a really good one up there.
Yeah, there's, and campdrafting has just got massive.
It's huge now, let alone someof the rigs that are getting
around to put all these thingsin.
Oh man, I couldn't believe, sowhat a like similar to you.

Speaker 1 (01:16:19):
Like I was growing up I was all into summon at drag
racing, like going to car showsand things and I don't know.
Even back then, like, as wellas watching the cars and the dry
race and things, like I justused to like cruise around the
pits and just checking thingsout and like so, while the girls
were watching the horse andthat up there, I thought, oh,
I'm gonna go for a walk aroundthe paddocks and have a look
around.

Speaker 2 (01:16:36):
And, holy shit, I spent because I've got four kids
.
I spent a lot of time pushing apram at drafts and I used to do
the same thing.
Go for a walk around, put onekid to sleep and have a look,
and that's how we build ourtruck.
Just by looking at those trucksand it's amazing.
It's a building and cars.
You look at these things youknow well, that's nice.

Speaker 1 (01:16:52):
So that's a good setup and I thought there was
money in drag racing events withb double trucks and stuff.
And then walking around warwickand there's b double trucks.
Well, so there was b doubletrucks set up for the horses,
yeah, and.
And then the same I don't knowcompany or property or station,
whatever it is, would then haveanother truck with all the hay
bales and shit on it, and thenthey'd have a couple of I don't
know Chevys or F-trucks orwhatever.

(01:17:14):
Yeah, it's unreal.
I've seen one.

Speaker 2 (01:17:20):
We've got a big farm near us and they get to a lot of
draftives and they've got aJeep that comes out of the back
and it's painted the same colourLike some of the stuff you see
getting around, like it's.
We're definitely not that We'vegot an old Mitsubishi glorified
cattle truck with a caravan onthe back, but yeah, it is
awesome and it's just great tobe out and involved with all
those sort of people and it'sjust a different lifestyle.
Really.
It gets you away from thehustle and bust.
I love it and I definitelythink people.

Speaker 1 (01:17:43):
Since COVID, those sort of country events are just
getting more and more popular.
People are getting out of thecity.

Speaker 2 (01:17:49):
It's ridiculous I do on the draft.
Now there's waiting lists toget into a draft and stuff and I
like the fact that I can be 60and still doing it with my kids
and hoping they come with me.
Like that's what I'm hoping for.

Speaker 1 (01:17:58):
Like you see, a lot no-transcript girls out to their
training now and, yeah, likenot riding or not anything, I'm
not really drinking at themoment, so just literally just

(01:18:20):
sitting there bloody elbows onthe rails and just watching yeah
, we't half the time have timeto drink because by the time you
get home you're doing somethingand then you're having tea and
going to bed.

Speaker 2 (01:18:28):
It works really well.

Speaker 1 (01:18:29):
Yeah, but, mate, we'll start to wrap it up Before
we get out of here.
Is there anything else you'dlike to, I guess, put out to
trades and builders?
Any advice?

Speaker 2 (01:18:38):
No, I reckon the biggest thing is just mentoring,
cultivating that out there,that once you start, and then
you start meeting these newpeople and you get in that
community of like-minded people,like it's huge I wish I would
have done earlier.
Like, unfortunately, you can'tgo back and see the money you
wasted or the things you couldhave done better, but you can
only go from now.
Like we just look at I thinkwe've been 18 months or
something and the last 12 monthshas hit like it's awesome now.

(01:19:01):
Like it's just looking at andwe're always trying to get
better.
Like, like you have a littleproblem at work, like it could
be, maybe the tank didn't getordered for that job or whatever
it is.
Well, how do we fix it now?
Like you're always problemsolving to get better and yeah,
that's what I reckon.
Just go out and get addicted toit.
It's great.
Have you noticed some of yourtrades are getting help?
No, no, no, I haven't noticedthat, but I from trades with our

(01:19:23):
scheduling, I've noticed thatand they've noticed that.
You know, especially cominginto Christmas, which is always
crazy, well, used to be crazy.
So now we're like, well, it'snot crazy.
We're programmed in our jobs,we know what we're doing.
We're putting two slabs down sowe can start them next year.
It's not crazy for us leadingin, we got a handover yesterday

(01:19:51):
and we stalled a whole different.
They're compared to the rest ofour trades or they're a big
business.
But aside from that, no, no,it's just getting get the job
done and get home.

Speaker 1 (01:19:58):
They're not even thinking about yes tomorrow or
then where they're going oh,we're seeing, we're really
starting to see like a few ofour trades now.
Um, I had a really goodconversation with my sparky
yesterday.
Like he's, he's reached out,he's getting some mentoring and
coaching and he's, um, he wastelling me how it's just really
improved his, his, um, hisefficiencies his cash flow.

Speaker 2 (01:20:17):
I've spoke to a few one man being sparkies back home
and they are.
I don't know if there's anothersimilar to like, level up, like
for live life, build like umfor's, but it seems to be.
They're starting to look at it,but your plumbers and your
plasterers, are they doing it?

Speaker 1 (01:20:30):
Yeah, plasterers, he's really kicking goals.
He's into the training stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:20:35):
Well, I'll look at it that if we can have trades, go
to work.
Everyone wants to make money atthe end of the day because
otherwise you wouldn't be doingit.
You need to put food on thetable, and then there's not that
argument because they get tothe end of the job and they've
realized their boys are blowingthe hours out.
They don't have time to comeback and fix a patch or it just
helps everything.
If everyone get on the samepage and start learning the
numbers and their figures andhow to run their business better
, then they're not as stressedout and how help us to make our

(01:20:58):
job a lot easier to run it.

Speaker 1 (01:21:00):
Yeah, I think it's awesome, mate.
Well, um, look, reallyappreciate you jumping on a
plane and shooting up here thisafternoon.
It's been a really good chat.
Look for everyone that'slistening.
I guess we've got somethingreally big in the works for next
year.
We can't tell you too muchabout that at the moment, but
Matt will be a part of that.
And, yeah, hopefully, once weannounce that, you can all come
along and say g'day and we canreally talk some cool stuff.

(01:21:22):
But, mate, appreciate your time.

Speaker 2 (01:21:23):
No, thanks for having me, it's been awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:21:25):
Good to see the shed, but it's been bloody hot yeah
it has.
We'll go and get a drink, butyeah, look, guys, I really hope
you're enjoying the podcast.
Please like, share, subscribe,tell every other trader, every
other builder you know aboutthis podcast, because we want to
continue to make thisAustralia's number one
construction podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:21:47):
We'll see you on the next one.
Are you ready to build smarter,live better and enjoy life?

Speaker 1 (01:21:49):
then head over to live like buildcom forward,
slash, elevate to get startedeverything discussed during the
level up podcast with menePearce is based solely on my own
personal experiences and thoseexperiences of my guests.

(01:22:10):
The information, opinions andrecommendations presented in
this podcast are for generalinformation only, and any
reliance on the informationprovided in this podcast is done
at your own risk.
We recommend that you obtainyour own professional advice in
respect to the topics discussedduring this podcast.

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