I Can't Keep Quiet About It Anymore - Pulling Back the Veil on the Building Industry.

#151 Helen Armstrong from House of Stars shares her 33-year journey in the construction industry while revealing critical insights about current building codes and their unintended consequences for homeowners and builders alike. She explains how modern construction practices aimed at energy efficiency may be creating the perfect conditions for widespread mould issues in Australian homes, similar to the leaky home crisis in New Zealand.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Back 33 years ago, it used to take about three to
four months to build a low setthree, four bedroom dwelling.
33 years forward, you wouldthink that we'd see some
progression, but now that samehouse is taking eight to 12
months to build.
And what do you think that is?
Well, mobile phones is probablyone of the biggest things, but

(00:22):
most definitely red tape.

Speaker 2 (00:24):
Yeah yeah, productivity is definitely down.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
One of the things that I'm really passionate about
is removing the red tape wherethere is none.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
G'day guys.
Welcome back to another episodeof Level Up.
We are back in the shed todayfor another cracking episode,
and this one will definitely bea cracker because I've got a
lady here today that I hadn'tseen for probably 10 years, 12
years, and then she actuallyshowed up at my Level Up

(01:00):
experience event and I was overthe moon.
We had a good conversation.
I'm like, man, you're coming onthe podcast, but to yeah, I
just want to give a big warmwelcome I guess an introduction
to Helen from House of Stars.

Speaker 1 (01:12):
Hi Duane.
Thank you, I got it right, yes.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
House of Stars.
Helen is definitely an expertwhen it comes to energy
efficiency ratings and all thatsort of thing.
But to take you back to how weactually met was we were just
talking about it off air.
It was in 2010.
And back then for a few yearsyou were the judge with the

(01:36):
Master Building Awards, and wemet the year that I won the
Rising Star Award.
Yes, so yeah.
Now we're back.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
I know it's a long time, so how?
How long have you been in theconstruction industry?

Speaker 2 (01:51):
uh, I've been in the construction industry now for 29
years 29 well, it started whenI was 15, so, um, definitely a
long time, but running, runningmy own building business.
Now, this, this is our um.
I worked it out the other day.
I think it's our 17th year as,okay, yeah, building, but, um, I

(02:11):
just want to touch on somethingbefore.
Like, we've got a lot of stuffwe're going to talk about today
and some of it, uh, is probablygoing to be a bit controversial,
but I'm all for opening up cansof worms and getting this
industry talking, but, um, so Ireally want to point out so I
won the master builders rising astar award in 2010.
I'm pretty sure it was 2010,might have been 2012, I think.

(02:33):
I'm sure it was 2010, because2010, I think, was the year that
I should have won the otheraward that I didn't.
But, um, why I want to pointthis out is so when, back then,
when I won the rising star award, um, for master builders
queensland, you, you didn'tenter it.
It was.
It was a and correct me if I'mwrong, but it was an award like,
I think that year we had threeor four projects entered yes and

(02:57):
the judges selected me becausethey thought my work was good oh
, brilliantyour work was brilliant um, but
like that was like 2010 to 2012was some of our biggest
struggles.
So, um, it was actually a shitshow behind the scenes and it's
the reason I want to point itout is because it doesn't always

(03:19):
like.
At the time, I thought it wasunbelievable.
I I thought I've won thisRising Star Award, people are
recognizing what I'm doing, butat the time I was face value.
It looked like we were buildingmulti-million dollar homes, we
had a massive team, we weremaking lots of money, but behind
the scenes it was a shit show.
We had no cash flow.
We were basically nearly goingbroke.

(03:41):
Every single day was issueswith clients.
Like it was just terrible.
So I think it's.
There's a perception at alllevels across the industry,
isn't it like just because youwin awards doesn't mean you
you're actually doing well?

Speaker 1 (03:57):
that's very true.
Part of the awards process,though, is to recognise the
human behind the work.
Yeah.
So we're not interested in that.
We're interested in the heartbehind the project and the
quality of project.
And it goes without saying,dwayne, that you have yourself

(04:20):
and your team, some of the bestcraftsmen offer the best
craftsmanship that industry'sever seen.
Yeah, and we recognise that.
Did that Rising Star Award?
Did that help you?

Speaker 2 (04:34):
It did help me personally, like, because I like
the industry is a hard industry, so getting recognition
definitely does help encourageyou to keep pushing and keep
doing better.
So look it definitely didn't goastray like I.
It's still on the wall in myoffice.
It's the.
It's actually the only awardthat is on the wall okay all of
our other master builders awardsand ha awards are sort of down

(04:57):
in the shelf.
You don't really see them.
But the rising star one is onethat I walk past every day and I
I still do get proud by it.

Speaker 1 (05:04):
So that was an honorary award.
You didn't actually apply forthat.
The judges selected you out ofall the other projects for the.
Rising Star.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
Award.
So how did you get involvedwith the?
What were you doing back then?

Speaker 1 (05:20):
So I've been in the construction industry for 33
years.
Yeah, I started House of Stars17 years ago and when I, a
couple of years into startingHouse of Stars, I decided that
for me to create somecredibility really quick would

(05:41):
be to enter awards yeah, so Imyself was behind the scenes
entering awards.
I won a few awards and then oneof the industry associations
said hey, do you want to?
Would you like to be a judge?
Yeah, absolutely, I'd love tobe a judge.
Yeah, so that's how I got thatparticular judging role.

(06:02):
I've done many judging rolessince that time.

Speaker 2 (06:05):
I really a pretty cool role, like you get to see
some amazing homes, absolutelyyeah yeah the and look, I really
I don't know I again knowingwhat I know now like you, you
build connections with peoplelike I.
Like, obviously over there wasa, I think a four or five year
period there where we did entera lot of homes and we did win a

(06:27):
lot of awards.
But, um, like I literally onlysee you every 12 months when you
come to judge the awards and Idon't know.
It was just always friendly andalways good and we connected
pretty well.
So I was stoked the other weekwhen you turned up to my event
and I wanted to see what youwere doing, how you were going.

Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (06:48):
So we'll come back to all that sort of stuff later,
but let's so.
You're now an energy assessingexpert.
Yes.
Can you take us back to like?
You've been in the industry 33years.
How did you get into theindustry?

Speaker 1 (06:59):
First of all, I was the first woman labourer ever
employed by G James Glass andAluminium back in 1992.
They were launching a newdivision called the Security and
Safety Division and one of themarketing gurus thought that it
would be great for G JamesProfile to employ a woman.

(07:22):
I mean, there was very fewwomen being employed back in
those days.
So that's how it all startedand we were installing window
film security film, not solarcontrol, just exclusively solar
control film.
It was a big problem in the 90sof nickel sulfate, which was

(07:44):
tough and glass exploding andthe glass would be falling 20,
30 stories.
So the security film wasdesigned to hold the glass
together and we also did solarfilm as well.
And just installing solar filmI started to recognise the

(08:05):
benefits of energy efficiencywell before energy efficiency
was even a buzzword.
Yeah, the cost of energy.
Electricity was very cheap backthen, right, and for me, I felt
that I had a greater purpose.

(08:25):
There was no room for me tomove at G James, so I went and
worked for another company doingwindow tinting.
And same thing roadblock.
Yeah, it was always the new guysthat come along and got the
bigger bonuses, the pay rises,and so I just kept moving along

(08:48):
and eventually I landed atechnical role with a company
called QIS SolarWise and wespecialised in insulation, solar
hot water, window tinting,swimming pool heating and also
window film.
I think I already said that.

(09:08):
So initially they employed meto grow their window tinting
division and they realised thatI had a great potential and I
wanted to learn more and I endedup being the the sales manager
for the technical team.

(09:29):
So we not only did we, we build, but we built designed heat
pumps and gas heaters forolympic swimming pools and
domestic swimming pools.
So I was in that role for 10years and then I was married.
At the time I had a little boy,little baby, and when he was

(09:52):
two years old my marriage endedand I had an opportunity to go
back to to QIS, but back inthose days I was working 60, 70
hours a week.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, oh.
My sales were, you know,$150,000, $200,000 a month.

(10:14):
So it was a big position and,as a single mum, knowing that I
was only going to have access tomy little man for 50% of the
time, house of Stars really wasbirthed by myself really from a

(10:38):
survival point of view, soyou've been going 17 years.
Yeah, House of Stars is 17years.

Speaker 2 (10:44):
So you've been going 17 years.
Yeah, house of Stars is 17years.

Speaker 1 (10:50):
There wouldn't have been, like you said, there
wouldn't have been that buzzaround energy efficiency back
then.

Speaker 3 (10:54):
So energy compliance came in in 2003 into the
building code.

Speaker 1 (10:57):
Back in those days they had the deemed to satisfy,
which is a bit like a roadworthy for a car a tick and
flick, and also the star rating.
Now, the Deem to Satisfy wasthe most common method of energy
compliance in 2003.
And a lot of insulationcompanies.
So the company that I work for,qis SolarWise, we did the Deem

(11:21):
to Satisfy energy reports forthe builders.
Yeah, the star rating was alsoavailable back in 2003.
It was three stars at the time.
Yeah right, a software programcould only rate to five stars
back in those days and threestars was the minimum
requirement.
So that, coming in 2003, Istarted House of Stars in 2006.

Speaker 2 (11:47):
Yeah, unreal, I should point out too before.
I should have done it at thestart, but for anybody that's
watching, we have thisincredible platter sitting
between us because Helen showedup with this awesome array of
foods which I've been gettingstuck into.
So you're the first guest everto show up with food We've had
plenty to turn up with food.
We've had plenty turn up withalcohol and drinks and stuff I

(12:09):
like food, duane as you can asyou can tell yeah, so it's
always nice to share someyummies yeah, no, definitely so.
Um, look, I'm keen to see wherethis podcast goes, because we've
definitely got a lot to talkabout.
So tell us some of the changesthat you've seen from then, like
well, I think the greatestthing would be is back 33 years

(12:32):
ago.

Speaker 1 (12:33):
It used to take about three to four months to build a
low set three, four bedroomdwelling.
33 years forward, you wouldthink that we'd see some
progression, but now that samehouse is taking 8 to 12 months
to build yeah, yeah, and what doyou think that is?
Well, mobile phones is.

(12:53):
Is is probably one of thebiggest things, yeah, but most
definitely red tape yeah, yeah,productivity is definitely down.

Speaker 2 (13:02):
I think like you don't.
Um, I just see what happens onjob sites these days compared to
when I like.
So, yeah, 29, no 27 years agowhen I started my apprenticeship
like we got a lot more done ina day than what you see a volume
builder doing these days, do?

Speaker 1 (13:20):
you think that that's because we've got a lot of
distractions.
You've got the mobile phone,you've got social media
addiction, TikTok, Snapchat.

Speaker 2 (13:28):
There was no phone, like you say.
The boss was on site with meand there was only a team of
three of us.
But yeah, we would build astick frame three, four bedroom,
like 180 to 220 square metrehouse in a day.
It would turn up with packs oftimber in the morning and by the
time we left it forth, betweenfour and five in the afternoon,

(13:50):
it would be a fully built frameready for roof trusses so the
culture was a lot more serious.

Speaker 1 (13:55):
Right, they're a lot more committed, is that?

Speaker 2 (13:57):
yeah, I don't know.
Look, I definitely had a greatboss, but, um, like I think a
lot of the cultures changed.
Like we, like we got pushedhard, like I did anyway.
Like it was like you wererunning yeah, like there was no
just dragging your feet aroundchecking your phone, like it was

(14:18):
like the radio was on and youwere running, yeah.
But I do think that a biggerpart of it is the red tape like
there, and and not only that,there's a lot more product goes
into a house now yeah, of courselike you, um, but when I
started my apprenticeship, likewe weren't even putting any
building wrap on it oh, right,okay so

Speaker 1 (14:38):
I don't know when that started coming in back in
1992 uh, or actually, excuse me,not 1992 when I started with
qis, which was 1997.
I used to sell rolls of sarkingout the boot of my car yeah
drive around to job sites.

(15:00):
You need some sarking.
No thanks, we don't use it.
We don't use it.

Speaker 2 (15:04):
Yeah yeah, yeah.
So when, when did that?
When did the rule come in thatyou had to in?
2003 yeah, yeah and look,correct me if I'm wrong on this
or I'm out of place, but I I Ibelieve now that our industry is
very reactive and it all theeverything the governments, the
associations and things and theymake a lot of decisions without

(15:27):
actually doing consulting theindustry, the people on site
absolutely there's.

Speaker 1 (15:32):
No, there's very little stakeholder engagement
and particularly extremely low,uh, stakeholder engagement with
custom home builders.

Speaker 2 (15:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
That's my experience.

Speaker 2 (15:46):
Well, and that's what I was going to get at, they
might do a little bit withbigger builders, but from what
I've seen and been aware of,they don't want to talk to
renovation extension custom homebuilders because there's too
many of us and I sort of believethat the whole industry is
driven by the volume builders.

Speaker 1 (16:07):
I would.
I would have to agree with you.
Yeah, I've been on a number ofcommittees throughout my career
and majority of my experience inthose committees is majority of
those would be would be projectbuilders yeah.
Less representative of customhome builders, or yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:28):
Or smaller builders yeah but they seem, when it
comes to the energy ratings,like it's not, yeah, there's not
enough consultation out there,and like I'm only sort of trying
to go back now to figure outwhy we're having the problems
we're having now, like, and Iactually I believe a lot of the
changes that are coming nowwe're creating more issues.
Um, but like the way I sort ofbeen explaining it to people,

(16:51):
like we were building homes fora while, like so my, my view is
the old queenslander is aboutlike for our environment, where
we are here, southeastqueensland, the old queenslander
is the perfect home.
It's up off the ground a bit.
It's got huge, big, wideverandas, lots of shading, lots
of natural ventilation.
Yes, it gets cold in winter,but we're humans.

(17:12):
You go, put a jumper on, youlook after yourself.
You don't expect your house todo it yeah but then we've now
built like we.
Then we started putting sarkingon and then so that became a
thing and we now know that thefoil is terrible.
It doesn't allow moisture totransfer inside the outside, and
then we have insulation thatcome in like I'm not sure you

(17:34):
probably know the exact yearthat the insulation come in 2003
so then we start filling ourwalls with bulk insulation and
then, because of the foil papernow the moisture is getting
trapped in that insulation andnow we're just starting to see
mould issues.

Speaker 1 (17:49):
But are those mould issues, do you believe, directly
related to the paper, or thefact that the building code has
evolved, and a lot of that isabout reducing the window areas
and the fall prevention screenscame in in 2013, so you either
needed a window restrictor, so asliding window that would

(18:14):
typically open 45 percent is nowlimited to opening to 120.
Uh, 120 mil.

Speaker 2 (18:22):
Yeah right, look, I'm definitely no expert, but from
the, from what I know, what I,what I feel, I know from all my
own homework and research andjust talking to people like
yourself, I I think we'vecreated the problem because
without, without knowing what wewe've done, we've created more
airtight houses, absolutely, andnot only like that's a good.
I've never even thought aboutwhat you just said with the fall

(18:43):
prevention and limiting theopening of windows.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
The airflow.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
Always sort of going along the lines of just over the
course of the last 20, 30 years, products have gotten better,
so like windows have gottenbetter, seals have gotten better
, and so without really knowingwhat was happening, have the
windows really gotten better?
I think they are.

Speaker 1 (19:03):
Well, it depends what company isn't, it depends where
they're coming from and a lotof the double glazing is coming
well, which is required quite agreat deal now in in the current
code.
A lot of those windows arecoming from from china, yeah,
and they're not necessarilyargon gas filled.

(19:24):
And another thing that you maynot know is did you know as soon
as you screw a security screenor a fall prevention screen to a
double-glazed window, thedouble-glazed window is not
under warranty.
No, and you've also compromisedthe air in between the frame.

Speaker 2 (19:44):
Therefore, you're going to have condensation
issues oh, if you've penetratedthrough, as soon as you
penetrate through the frame?

Speaker 1 (19:49):
yeah, yeah, they're things that are overlooked in
the building code.
Is those unintentionalconsequences?

Speaker 2 (19:58):
yeah, I guess, unless you're buying a window that's
actually got a screen trackbuilt into it exactly you're
penetrating a seal through thewindow.

Speaker 1 (20:05):
So then, if you're not using screens, you need to
limit the window opening to 120mil, and that's only trapping
all the moisture inside, andthen I believe, in another two
to three years we're going tohave more unhealthy homes, more
mold than you can poke a stickat.
I agree, I think like I canpoke a stick at.

Speaker 2 (20:25):
I agree.
I think, like I said, there'sjust not enough investigation.
I had Paula Baker-Laporte outhere for my event the other week
or whatever months ago.
It feels like it was only acouple of days ago, but I
learned so much from her whileshe was here.
We spent seven days with her andit just really opened up my

(20:47):
eyes to about how we should bethinking about our homes and, um
, like, the way she thinks of ahome is that it's a living,
breathing thing, like our househas to perform like yeah, you
like, the house basically needsa set of lungs, like you need
the, the walls, to be able tobreathe in and out, and you need
it to be able to hold moisturewhen it's appropriate and then

(21:08):
release that moisture when the,when the temperature and the
humidity is right and all thosetypes of things absolutely I
feel like we're going down thispath where we're getting pushed
to create more airtight homes.
But if you're creating a moreairtight home and you're not, uh
, dealing with what comes withthat, yes, then yeah, we're

(21:32):
creating more problems.

Speaker 1 (21:33):
Absolutely, I agree.
I think another thing is thatthere's a great deal of emphasis
on accessibility, inclusiveinclusivity, and another thing
that's been a big oversight isdouble glazed windows and doors.
Well, if people have gotaccessibility issues or strength
issues, be they a child ormiddle-aged, whatever half of

(21:59):
them can't even open and closethe windows.
Yeah.
Right, because they're too heavy.
So those houses are going to bemore reliant on air
conditioning because they'regoing to be closed up all the
time, yeah and that, and, as aconsequence, they're going to be
very unhealthy inside, yeah,incredibly moldy with the other
thing.

Speaker 2 (22:18):
I think, with the double glazing, like, what I'm
seeing now is like we're, um,we're sort of working with
designers and architects nowthat are, um, we're sort of
sending clients to a more um I'mnot sure what the word is for
it but like a very independentsort of assessment where it's

(22:38):
not like a tick and flick thingbecause, like, as you say, like
the code is sort of pushing fordouble glazing, but double
glazing might not work on a fullhouse, like you.
So you really need to be doingassessments that take sort of
each elevation uh, on its ownmerit, because if you, double
glazing might work fantastic onone side of the house, but on

(23:01):
the other side of the house itmight actually need to get a bit
more heat in or let a bit moreheat out, um, so you might
actually be creating problemsfor yourself.
So do you see that, like withyour are you are your tests
going further now to um likedoing like, basically, each
elevation on its own assessment?

Speaker 1 (23:24):
No, no, no.
I don't know where that methodof compliance is written in the
current building code.
Duane, yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:36):
Yeah, no, but you were saying before that by doing
that, it might actually benon-compliant.
Is that what you were sayingbefore?

Speaker 1 (23:47):
Well, I feel that that method of compliance is
what you would call aperformance-based design brief,
which is something that isagreed upon between the builder,
the client and the buildingcertifier, and they negotiate uh
, and the building certifierwill sign off on that.

(24:07):
Uh as a as a performancesolution, yeah, perhaps one that
you've maybe created yourself,not a performance solution that
is written in the building codeas such, because within the
building code, a performancesolution is outlined.

(24:27):
It used to be a loophole, butthey closed that loophole when
they changed the wording to theperformance based solution
cannot have a lesser outcomethan the deemed to satisfy
provisions yeah so what thatwould mean is you would have to
do your glazing calculationunder the deemed to satisfy
provisions.
Yeah, so what that would mean isyou would have to do your
glazing calculation under thedeemed to satisfy provisions and

(24:49):
if it says you need doubleglazing or triple glazing,
technically a performance-baseddesign brief cannot be less than
that.

Speaker 2 (24:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah Okay .

Speaker 1 (24:58):
So if there's any performance-based solution that
varies, there's anyperformance-based solution that
varies from the building code,like well, technically, that's
up to the building certified tosign off on that yeah, yeah,
yeah, no, look it's.

Speaker 2 (25:16):
It's something I'm trying to educate myself more on
, because I don't um it's verycomplex energy efficiency.

Speaker 1 (25:23):
In fact our stakeholders would say that
energy compliance is one of themost complex, convoluted parts
of the building code.
Because in Queensland we've gotthe National Construction Code,
which is national, and thenwe've got the Building Act 1975,

(25:45):
which is exclusive toQueensland, and in there there's
lots of different transitionalarrangements, alternative not
alternative solutions, but thediscretion for a building
certifier to apply the earlierbuilding provisions yeah.
And then you've also got theQueensland Development Code.

(26:09):
So in Queensland you've gotthree codes.
There's not a great deal ofenergy assessors or
practitioners or professionalsthat understand how to interpret
those together yeah.
And having said that, one ofthe biggest inconsistencies

(26:29):
that's happening today in theindustry is under the building
act of 1975, under section 61.
It allows every singlealteration and addition project
to be assessed under the earlierbuilding provisions yeah, Every

(26:49):
day of the week.

Speaker 2 (26:51):
So that takes precedence over the new code.

Speaker 1 (27:01):
Within the building certifier, or builders or
designers.
They might not know that orthey might have their own
interpretation.
So here we've got 1,000builders, and most of them don't
even know that.

(27:21):
Yeah, I didn't know that.
So you and I this is a scenarioyou and I are pricing on the
same project, an alteration andaddition project.
My building certifierunderstands and interprets the
legislation as it's writtenWithin Section 61, there's no

(27:43):
limitations.
Within section 61, there's nolimitations.
The only limitation forapplying the earlier building
provisions for energy complianceis does the building certifier
consider it to be a compromise?
The structural integrity or thestructural safety of the
building?
That's the only limitation.
Yeah, but in other sections ofthe building act which are 20

(28:06):
sections, 30 sections away,there's things called half
volume triggers, right, but whatwe've got is we've got a great
deal of part of the industrythat's read the legislation and
gone oh, half volume is 50%floor area.
You and I both know there's abig difference between half

(28:29):
volume and 50% floor area.
But some certifiers will go oh,no, no, no, no, I can't apply
the earlier building codebecause the new work is more
than 50% of the floor area, ismore than 50% of the floor area.
That doesn't exist in Section61.
Yeah, so what we are doing,part of our training, is we go

(28:51):
out and we educate the buildingcertifiers about the legislation
, our builders and our buildingdesigners, and we say to them
this is Section 61.
Yeah.
And we say to them this isSection 61.
Yeah.
If the building certifier says,oh, we can't apply Section 61

(29:11):
because of the 50% floor areatrigger, I get on the phone,
have a chin wag to the buildingcertifier and say, with all due
respect, you do realise that's acode blend.
Codes are not intended to beblended.
The intent of the legislationwithin the Building Act is to

(29:31):
use that act.
So one's called Section 61 andone's called Section 81.
If they were related, don't youthink they'd be called Section
61A and B, right?
Yeah?
Think they'd be called section61 a andb, right, yeah?
But they're actually 20 codesapart and section 61 is under
the earlier building provisions.

(29:51):
So how we're making a change inthe industry.
And look, some buildingcertifiers.
You know what they.
You know what they say to me,duane, don't you?
I can only imagine yeah I justwant you to tick a box and but I
can't keep quiet about itanymore because you and I are
pricing on the same job.

(30:13):
My building certifier says yes,helen, section 61, yours says
what.
Yours says no, yeah, you'regoing to meet the current code.
What does that mean?
That means that you and I arepricing the same client and we
could be sixty thousand dollarsapart yeah, yeah have you just

(30:33):
have you just wasted your timequoting.
Yeah, how long.
How long did that take you toquote that project?

Speaker 2 (30:40):
yeah, well.
Well, look, we've got a processwe don't quote against other
builders.
But, um, I I get what you mean,but I could be building the
wrong thing.
Like, if we've got a process wedon't quote against other
builders, but I get what youmean, but I could be building
the wrong thing.
Like if I've got a certifierthat done that wrong, I could be
actually pricing the wrongthing for the client.

Speaker 1 (30:53):
So the certifier's not actually necessarily done it
wrong.
It's within their jurisdiction,yeah, so they can say it's got
to meet the current code.
But the interesting thing is isit's called the new housing
code.
It's an alteration, addition, anew house.
Yeah.

(31:17):
There we go.
So at the moment, we've gotthis major disparity where we've
got builders that are quotingagainst each other and they're
not even quoting on the samelevel playing field.
We've got builders that areengaging building certifiers and
they don't even know whatenergy efficiency code they need
to meet.
Then we've got the clients thathaven't been given the option.

(31:41):
Perhaps they may have had tomeet the current code and it's
cost them an extra $60,000 to dothat.
So the legislation I think oneof the things that I'm really
passionate about is removing thered tape where there is none
right.

Speaker 2 (31:59):
So what do you mean by that?

Speaker 1 (32:00):
Well, there's no red tape surrounding Section 61,
right, it's actually alegitimate part of the
legislation that allows everysingle alteration and addition
to go under the early buildingprovisions.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
Yeah, you were telling me about something at my
event when we caught up thatthere was something missed or
something was there.
And then it says a lot ofhouses that are now
non-compliant.

Speaker 1 (32:29):
So did you see that letter from Master Builders?

Speaker 2 (32:32):
Yeah, did you have a read of it, yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:33):
Did it make any sense to you?
A little bit, okay.
So when the new energycompliance code came in in 1st
of May 2024, earlier, all youhad to do was meet the building
fabric, which is the insulation,the glazing, the ceiling fans.
So we call that the buildingfabric.

(32:55):
The new code includes not justan improved building fabric, but
also the whole of homeassessment.
Now, the whole of homeassessment is where an energy
report needs to tell you whatthe performance requirements of
the air conditioning systemneeds to be, what performance

(33:19):
requirements, the hot water, theswimming pool pump?
Now, as an example, if you havegas hot water, did you know
that you need to install a solarpower system to offset the gas?
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:37):
That's pretty interesting, but even I'll come
back in a minute.
You finish what you're sayingso what's?

Speaker 1 (33:42):
what's master builders has written a letter to
the minister is that they'verealized that a lot of energy
reports have been accepted,approved and built that exclude
the whole of house assessment.
So they're only half compliant.

Speaker 2 (34:01):
Yeah.
So what happens with that?
Nothing.

Speaker 1 (34:05):
Do you really want me to get into that?
I think that should besomething that we talk off air
actually All right.
Because it'll open up a realhuge can of worms.

Speaker 2 (34:15):
Yeah, all right, right, well, we can do that, but
so, but like back to whatyou're just saying there, like a
lot of a lot of people wouldn't.
Well, from what I see, a lot ofpeople are going to contract
without knowing their hot water,their pool pump, their like,
their, their like builders arelocking them into contracts
before they've even had thatstuff finalized well, I think

(34:35):
that's the biggest message,right, do not quote on a project
unless the client's providedyou with an energy report.

Speaker 1 (34:43):
Don't even quote on it.

Speaker 2 (34:45):
Well, we've changed our process, our
pre-construction process, in thelast sort of six to 12 months,
because we were like energyassessing was something that was
always getting left right tillcertification, like right at the
end, and a lot of the timeslike we'd get told, oh look,
it's fine, it passes everythingand we'd go to contract.

(35:07):
And then next time we get thestamp plans through and the
energy's ratings different, weit's it ups the cost of all the
windows and everything changes.
So we've changed our processnow to say that before we go to
contract we must have a finalenergy assessment done so that
we can finalize our costingsabsolutely, yeah, it's just
riddled with danger if you don'tdo that.

Speaker 1 (35:30):
Yeah, yeah, what we also tell builders, because you
might not be the only builderpricing on a project don't
organise the energy report forthe client.
No, yeah.
Get the client to actuallyengage the energy assessor.
Now we always qualify what codeapplies to the project, right,
is it the earlier code or is ittoday's code?

(35:52):
And then we also talk to thecertifier to to determine that
now if a builder you got fourbuilders pricing on the same
project and they organize theenergy assessor, the owner's not
going to be paying for fourenergy assessments right yeah,
and particularly if it's underthe current code, there's more

(36:16):
of a risk that that projectmight have to go back to
redesign to meet the currentcode yeah, we push for the, the
architect or the designer wholike in whoever's

Speaker 2 (36:26):
got in the team like we.
Really I believe they should bedoing it like should be part of
their process.
It it should be yes engage anenergy assessor and like we are
seeing, like we've got one guyor two, got two people now that
do it quite well, like theythey're engaging the energy
assessor.
Before final drawings yes, andthen working with them to come

(36:46):
up with solutions so that theycan be drawing the right size
windows, and having thoseconversations, because it, like
I'm sure you would see it, likewindows tend to be one of the
biggest items.

Speaker 1 (36:57):
Oh, most definitely.

Speaker 2 (36:59):
If you get the rate, like the difference in rating
can mean like, depending on thesize of the job, could be a
difference of $10,000, $20,000,$30,000 in windows.

Speaker 1 (37:06):
And this is where it's really good to talk about
that Flexibility of having thatearlier code available for all
alterations and additionsprojects is we had a 30 of my
business is second opinion.
Now that's pretty bad, right.

Speaker 2 (37:22):
30, so people have already got a, got an assessment
.
They come to you for a backupfor a second opinion.

Speaker 1 (37:29):
Now a lot of those second opinions are coming back
to us because I the glazingperformance requirements aren't
even available on the planet,yeah Right, so they send their
energy report off to the glazingcompany.
No glass exists?
Okay.
Then there's other ones wherethey may.

(37:52):
It's been done under thecurrent code.
It's an alteration in addition,but it needs double glazing.
And now all of a sudden thebuilder's being told that he
needs to replace existingwindows in a character, in a
housing that's got a characteroverlay.
He needs to replace existingwindows with double glazed

(38:13):
windows.
You can't do that?
Yeah Right, so they come towindows.
You can't do that?
Yeah Right, so they come to us.
We smooth it all out, we talkto the building certifier, we
get it approved under theearlier provisions and then we
go ahead and make the projectviable again.

Speaker 2 (38:30):
Yeah, there's so much to it, isn't there?
How does the average homeownersupposed to understand all this
if even builders and certifiersdon't.

Speaker 1 (38:38):
Well, that's where there needs to be education, and
we've seen such a huge gap anda need for it that we're
actually going out I mean,everyone gets a platter, dwayne,
we go out with a platter and wework with teens.
Because you've heard of theterm confirmation bias, right?

(39:00):
No, no, the confirmation biasis when you read something and
you change the words.
When you read it, you changethe words but those words don't
actually exist in the sentence.
Yeah, right, so it's interestingthat we will go to you know a
team, and we'll have eightbuilding certifiers all at the

(39:23):
table and we're reading exactlythe same legislation, right, and
it's only four paragraphs, likesection 61, it's not a big read
.
And and one certifier go, oh,but no, you can't do that.
Or oh but no, and it's.
The collaboration is justbrilliant because it brings up

(39:43):
that confirmation bias and thatconflict, so something that
you've been telling yourselfalways.
You know, red, red's thefastest car and someone says, no
, but yellow and orange can bejust as fast, and then me
proving it to you and you're ohshit, yeah, that's right yeah so
that's what those collaborationsessions are about.

(40:07):
And another thing about a levelplaying field is within the
building act, section 37 alsoallows any project that started
building design prior to the 1stof may 2024 new dwelling and
allows those to also be assessedunder the early building

(40:30):
provisions every day of the week.
Yeah, because we're workingwith a lot of builders and
architects, particularly withyour passive homes.
They might have been in the theplanning designing process for
12 to 18 months, sometimes twoor three years right yeah so
when, when they're working withus, we qualify and we don't just

(40:52):
I use this terrible term, butwe qualify them, we don't just I
use this terrible term, but Isay slap on, we don't just slap
on the current code, yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (41:04):
So what's your goal?
I see you've just done a newwebsite.
It's fantastic, thank you, andso it seems to me like your
passion now is not just doingthe assessments, it's actually
educating the industry on what'srequired.

Speaker 1 (41:17):
Educating the industry on legislation.
I think one of my greatestgoals, dwayne, is to reduce the
amount of building insolvencies.
Yeah, so since 2021 inAustralia, we've had 8,759

(41:37):
builders go insolvent.

Speaker 2 (41:39):
Yeah, the figures are huge.
I just saw the ones for thisfinancial year.
It's looking like we're goingto go over 3,000 just for the
year.

Speaker 1 (41:46):
Oh yes, I know that's insane.

Speaker 2 (41:52):
And so what's your plan to help reduce that?

Speaker 1 (41:55):
To help people understand the legislation,
create a level playing field sothat builders are pricing on a
level playing field, allowingthe earlier building provisions
in as many cases as possiblewithin the legislation,
delivering more affordablehousing, giving clients the

(42:18):
opportunity to upgrade wheretheir budget permits.
So that's one of my greatestgoals is to educate builders.
Yeah, okay, and make sure thatthey engage their building
certifier with confidence.
And make sure that they engagetheir building certifier with
confidence.
I always call buildingcertifier God.

(42:38):
They can make or break aproject right.

Speaker 2 (42:42):
Yeah, they can.
Yeah enough, I'd be callingthem God.
The one we use is very good.
Mark's very thorough.
We use him because he does.
Actually.
He pulls you up on things.
He'll ring you while he'sassessing drawings and ask how
we're going to build something.

Speaker 1 (42:55):
Don't get me wrong I'm not here to undermine
building certifiers.
We're here to protect them sothat they can mitigate their
risks.

Speaker 2 (43:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:04):
So I'm not some sort of smart-ass nerd that's coming
in and trying to challengebuilding certifiers challenge
building certifiers but ourdirection is to get them
familiar, not just buildingcertifiers, but builders and
building designers as well.
Uh, just to refresh them sothat we've got a level a level

(43:25):
playing field do is affordablehousing.
I mean majority of your clients.
Right, let's face it, they,they wouldn't be first-time
buyers, right?

Speaker 2 (43:35):
no, but reducing the cost of building is something
I'm really passionate aboutright okay, I do firmly believe
that with what I'm doing with mytraining, business, live, life,
build.
Like if I hand on heart,believe that I can reduce the
cost of housing.
If we can get all buildersrunning more successful, more

(43:57):
profitable, more sustainablebuilding businesses, yes, it
will reduce the cost.
And I did a post yesterday onmy socials about this and
someone said to me how as ifyou're going to make the cost of
housing more affordable if thebuilders are more profitable and
I said, well, it willdefinitely come down because,
like the thing is at the moment,so if we so 24, 25 financial

(44:21):
year, it looks like we're goingto going to exceed 3 000
companies in the constructionindustry going broke.
So those 3 000 companies like Ican only imagine, I would
imagine that they're leavingbehind.
It would easily be in thehundreds of millions, if not a

(44:44):
billion dollars of unpaid bills,but easily in the hundreds of
millions.
So people don't understand likethat money that hasn't been
paid, we're all covering that,but that's getting.
Like I know two companies verywell, like I personally know two
companies very, very well thatone's a hardware and, uh, one's

(45:07):
a um, like a roofing metalworkbusiness.
Between those two companiesthey're going to write off this
year over $9 million in unpaidinvoices from builders that have
gone broke.

Speaker 1 (45:24):
That's scary, hey.

Speaker 2 (45:25):
So and that's what I'm saying they don't just write
that off.
Those losses get worked ontothe cost of what we all pay for
our materials.
So I think it's huge, I thinkthere's yeah, it's it's a big
driver for me to get everybuilder running a more
successful, profitable business,which the on flow from that is

(45:47):
that we reduce the cost ofhousing, our clients get better
quality homes, um, we reducewaste, we help the environment,
we have healthier employees,because you haven't got a boss
that's running around allstressed and flogging everyone
because he's trying to makemoney.

Speaker 1 (46:06):
I think too.
Every time the price of a houseincreases, so does the risk to
the builder right oh?
yeah 100%, and every time youadd one extra inclusion in one
extra layer, whether it beglazing, whatever, it gives you
that extra level of risk oflosing profit.
We've had, coming back toenergy efficiency, we've had a

(46:31):
builder like yourself and we sayoh well, we believe that your
project's eligible under theearlier building provisions.
Can you please go back?
Here's the blurb.
And some builders have comeback and it's taken them two
weeks, four weeks, six weeks,eight weeks to get a.
Yes, Now, that's something thatwe never talk about.

(46:53):
Is the cost of delays?
Now, that's something that wenever talk about.
Is the cost of delays?
Okay, so we might just say well, energy efficiency has
increased the cost of a house by20 to 80 grand, but what's the
cost of all the delays in that?

Speaker 2 (47:05):
Yeah, well, again, that's part of the like you
touched on it before, like thelength of time it's taking to
build, because of all the extramaterials we have to put in them
.
So these are all the littlethings that people aren't
considering.
The government and the mediajust bang on about the cost of
housing has gone through theroof and all this type of thing,
but if they keep adding redtape and look, some of it's good

(47:29):
.
We do have to improve the waywe build.
I have no hands down.
We have to do that.
But I do believe there needs tobe more homework, more
investigation, more consultationwith the industry before we
start enforcing code changes.
But um, like that has a lot todo with why the house is taking
long to build.

(47:50):
And if the house takes longerto build, you've got longer
temporary fence higher longertoilet higher longer, more
supervision to manage theproject for I think the only
answer is is to come up withyour own association.

Speaker 1 (48:02):
Duane definitely that would be the only way that we
could actually deliver all ofthat stakeholder engagement yeah
, the voice of those builders.
Because myself alone I've beenon many committees.
I'm currently not on anycommittees.
I'm not a member of anyassociation.

(48:25):
Therefore, even though I'vedone a significant amount of
stakeholder engagement, wrotelots of policies for Senator
Gerard Rennick, which obviouslyActually that's another way that
you reached back out to meafter all those years.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:40):
I'm a massive fan of his.

Speaker 1 (48:41):
Yeah, I'm absolutely devastated.

Speaker 2 (48:43):
He didn't get in.

Speaker 1 (48:44):
Yeah, me too, me too, so I'd been doing a lot of work
behind the scenes.
So my goal is to have thecurrent NCC investigated,
redacted and made voluntaryopt-in out down.
That's my goal, okay.
And.
I've been working very, veryhard on that, quite

(49:05):
strategically.

Speaker 2 (49:08):
Sorry, go back again.
That was a big one, so what'sthat?

Speaker 1 (49:12):
My goal is to have the ncc to a national
construction code yes, 2022energy efficiency revoked, made
voluntary opt-in, opt-out yeah,so that you don't have to meet
the current code.
The client can decide whetherthey want to meet the current

(49:32):
code or whether they want tomeet the earlier code or whether
they want to meet the earliercode.

Speaker 2 (49:36):
And what's the driver for that?

Speaker 1 (49:40):
Well, housing affordability equality as well,
because if you're driving up theprice of houses by 20, 40, 60
grand, that's actuallydistributing wealth, isn't it
Right?
So it's pushing a lot of peopleout of housing.
Not only when we increase thecost of housing, that

(50:04):
unintentional consequenceincreases the cost of rents,
right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So it's almost like a disease.
Now, the ProductivityCommission is currently
reviewing the NationalConstruction Code.
Now we're in.
What are we in?

(50:24):
It's nearly July.
We're in July, yeah, that'sright 3rd of July and the
Productivity Commission has gota YouTube video that says that
they are aware that the NCC hasnever been assessed for its
productivity.

(50:45):
Have you seen that YouTube?
No.
I'll flick it to you.
Yeah, yeah, so that's why theNCC 2025 didn't come in Dwayne.
Yeah, right Because it's onhold.
Yeah, all right.
And that's the other way we canmake a change is get on the NCC
and the ABCB committee.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:05):
Yeah, yeah, let's do it.

Speaker 1 (51:07):
So that you get a lot more practical insight.

Speaker 2 (51:11):
Yeah, well, back to what you said before like, so my
, my, one of my other goals islike I, I part of my mission is
I I don't like the wordassociation, but I do want like,
live, my, look, my company,live, life, build.
I want it to be the companythat builders come to and we

(51:32):
separate from the rest of theindustry.
So I, I.
It absolutely blows my mindthat all builders are put in the
one basket and I firmly believethat all custom renovation,
extension, refurbishmentbuilders need to be our own.
I'll say association, but Ijust can't believe that we have

(51:56):
to live to have the sameeverything.

(52:18):
As a builder that's turning overhalf a billion or a billion
dollars a year, but the other,the flip, the other part of that
is I truly believe that like acustom builder, like a family,
run a smaller business.
So I don't know, you'd have tohave obviously a, a requirement,
but I'm I've told my head, I'mthinking like builders that

(52:39):
build less than 20 homes a year.
Every home's a custom home.
They don't build the same housetwice, like all that sort of
thing.
Like we're building betterhomes than the volume builders
and the other guys.
So because one thing I'm reallyworried about is, like the
government bangs on that allthese changes to the building
code are to like, especially nowthat mould and condensation are

(53:00):
getting mentioned, that thecode is to build healthier homes
and better quality homes.
But I'm actually concerned that, especially with a lot of the
changes that come in in the lastfew years, that they're
actually creating a massiveproblem that in the next like my
biggest fear is that Australiais going to go through like

(53:23):
Europe and New Zealand did withthe leaky home syndrome, like
we're going to have massive moldissues.

Speaker 1 (53:28):
No doubt.
And the interesting thing is iseven under the Residential
Tenancies Authority, a homethat's mouldy is inhabitable,
right yeah?
So I had a girlfriendrespiratory issues, long story
short.
She wanted to break her lease.
That was back in the day whenyou had to pay your rent right

(53:52):
up to the end of your lease date.
Yeah, the owner of her housewas her own family doctor for 20
years.
Yeah, she had respiratoryissues.
The whole house was full ofmould.

Speaker 2 (54:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:04):
Right.
She made a number of complaints.
Anyway, I said, let me, let me.
I love this stuff, let me takeit over.
So I organised a mould companyto come out but not habitable.
She got out of it, didn't haveto pay break lease fees and

(54:26):
that's gonna.
That's gonna be happening, rightthat's gonna be happening
everywhere or worse, the tenantwill stay in there and say, hey,
duane, it's mouldy, it's nothabitable, got nowhere else to
go, but I'm not paying your rentuntil you rectify it.
And that's actually in thecurrent rental tenancies
authority.

(54:46):
But no one's directly linkingthat together yet.

Speaker 2 (54:52):
Yeah, I think that's going to become a huge problem.
There's going to be a lot oflandlords that will end end up
broke because then they justwon't have tennis and so I so
what I've seen in firsthand.

Speaker 1 (55:01):
I'm at woody point, you know woody point yeah yeah,
and next door to me was adilapidated house and 10
dilapidated units, right, andthe way around it was is that
the landlord or the owner justrented to these people directly
because they didn't meet theresidential tenancies authority

(55:26):
standards.
So now, all of a sudden, whatyou've got is you're gonna have
this huge underworld parcel it'sunderworld, but it already
exists of houses that don't meetthe minimum housing standards
and landlords just renting outthese shit boxes right, but

(55:46):
they're still shelter, right.
Yeah, still better than livingin a car or a tent which is
legal to do You're allowed tolive in that, but you're allowed
to live in a shit or a tent,which is legal to do You're not
allowed to live in that, butyou're allowed to live in a shit
box, right, that leaks and hasgot broken stairs, and that's
the underworld that's beingcreated.
So these houses are stillavailable for rent, but just not

(56:09):
through the system.

Speaker 2 (56:11):
Yeah, I also think there's a big and look, this is
only something I'm I'm.
I'm just so passionate nowabout healthy homes, like
providing our clients and notjust our clients, other people
that want to build and renovateinformation, um, about creating
homes that not only give usshelter but actually help our

(56:33):
way of life in during the timewe live there, and I feel like
there's this big.
So everything in australiaseems to be driven around cost.
Uh, you got volume buildersjust smashing out cookie cutters
for um, a certain cost, whichis driven by what people can
afford, but then the way thatthey're getting built is not the

(56:57):
best, and so we have theseenergy efficiency ratings and
things that we have to meet.
But there seems to be a bigdisconnect between the materials
that we're allowed to buildhouses out of as well.
And like as I bought mattrisinger out as well for my
event from the states and helike he's one of the leading
sort of building science guys inthe world.

(57:19):
He's big on youtube and stuffand he just couldn't.
He was blown away thataustralia allows house to be
built out of steel frames and um, actually, we took him to him
for a drive.
He wanted to go into a housingestate and have a look, because
he's like we just don't get thisin the States.
It's not allowed.

Speaker 1 (57:35):
I think the steel frames that evolved from COVID
right when we ran out of timber.
I don't know what thepercentage was.
Yeah, I'm not sure.

Speaker 2 (57:44):
Yeah, but they're everywhere now and it's cheaper.
But a steel-framed house ishorrible.
It's like one of the worstproducts you could build a house
out of.
Like it.
It like it gets condensation onit.
It doesn't.
It doesn't hold moisture.

Speaker 1 (58:00):
So then you get all this sweat and condensation just
sitting in your wall, whichwell since most builders don't
know this, but since 2009, ifyou built with metal frames, be
it external walls or roof, youalways have to have a thermal
break.
The thermal break is, you know.
But that's so labour intensiveright?

(58:22):
Well, a lot of them are doingthe thermal break.

Speaker 2 (58:24):
Oh, are they?
So they're putting their.
Well, I shouldn't say a lot,but a few are.
So they put their wrap aroundthe framing and then they put a
cavity button over that frameand it creates an air gap on the
outside.
But the issue you have is you'vestill got a steel frame that's

(58:45):
holding moisture inside theframe, which most of them are
using just the cheapestinsulation they can buy, so that
insulation is then absorbingthe moisture, or even what
happens even more is you thenhave the moisture like sitting
on the paper on the back of theplasterboard and so then in the

(59:05):
back of it like you pull.
I guess people, people that arewatching and listening this
could go and do an experiment.
But you can pull theplasterboard off a the inside
wall of a of a steel framedhouse within six months of that
house being finished, and theback of the plasterboard will
have mold over it look I.

Speaker 1 (59:27):
and no, no disrespect to metal frames, but you know
we've had so much rain, duane,there's a lot of timber frames
out there that as soon as we getone sunny day, whammo yeah.
Right yeah great yeah, theconcrete slabs, they're drenched
.
I don't know what the moisturecontent is, but we get one sunny

(59:50):
day and bang go down the tiles.
So I mean you and I could goright down but this is, this is
what I mean.

Speaker 2 (59:57):
There's so many other things that should be getting
considered as well, not just theenergy rating of a building,
like, um, like, is that stuffthat you're looking into, you're
aware of, or you?

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
I'm aware of a lot of things.
A couple of my best friends aredispute resolution lawyers,
construction lawyers.
So, duane, we talk all day,every day, about these
situations.

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
The frame.
We've got a couple of clientsat the moment that are a little
bit frustrated, I guess isprobably the best word.
So with that we've obviouslyhad all that rain on our timber
frames.
I'm no different to otherbuilders, but we're not lining
the insides of the house, sowe're actually we're leaving the
houses sit and we're moisturetesting the timber until it gets

(01:00:42):
below 14%.

Speaker 1 (01:00:45):
The QBCC does not cover energy efficiency under
their home warranty scheme.

Speaker 2 (01:00:54):
How does that work?

Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
It's part of the building.
There's lots of things that areexcluded under the QBCC home
warranty scheme.
I'd have to Google it.
My phone's in the car butthere's a lot of items.
So mould is also not includedunder the QBCC home warranty
insurance scheme.

(01:01:17):
How does that work?
I can't.
I'm not the one to answer thatfor you.

Speaker 2 (01:01:23):
I actually didn't know that I would have, so you'd
have to think that's going tochange now that mould's
referencing the code.

Speaker 1 (01:01:31):
Well, I think, isn't it mainly structural defects and
pretty severe poor qualityworkmanship?
I don't know, I'm not sure.

Speaker 2 (01:01:42):
Yeah, we've got it.
We're doing a, a huge refurb atthe moment on a house that um,
actually, yeah, it's only justquick that you said that, like
we, we started out.
The client engaged us becausethey they wanted a kitchen and a
few bathrooms refurbed and, uh,it was fairly high end home.
But, um, over the 18 months ofdealing with them and designing

(01:02:05):
and stuff, they went away on aholiday and come back and the
house was full of mold and endedup getting condemned for their
home insurance through theiryeah, but then they tried to go
back to the original homewarranty insurance and yeah,
they they.
Actually they wouldn't cover itbecause it's not covered.

Speaker 1 (01:02:24):
Yeah, there's a lot of things.
Driveways are not covered.
There's a lot, of, a lot ofthings I can't remember off the
top of my head.
Um isn't that interesting,though, where I had a a couple
of of discussions with some ofmy friends and said I don't get
it Right.
So, but particularly with theenergy efficiency, we've got
builders that say the differencebetween the old code versus the

(01:02:46):
new code is beefed up the priceby 60 grand Right On the bill
price, not including delays orwhatever.
So the client's actually payinga higher premium for the qbcc
warranty insurance due to thosethings, but they're not covered

(01:03:06):
yeah, yeah, I've never thoughtabout like that that's yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:11):
Look, all that home warranty insurance stuff really
bugs me like, especially whenthey max.

Speaker 1 (01:03:16):
Yeah, like that's a whole 200 grand or optional 250
grand yeah, but you kept payingyour premium on the yeah I don't
.
If you find someone that canmake sense of it, get them to
call me, because I'd like.
It's almost criminal, isn't it?

Speaker 2 (01:03:31):
like you're paying.
If that's the case, why doesn'tthe premium get capped at a at
a certain price, like becauseyou?
That premium just keeps goingup and up and up and up and up,
and yet your payout figure iscapped.
It's quite ridiculous.
We can go down lots more rabbitholes.
But I also wanted to chat toyou today On your new website.

(01:03:54):
You're really getting behindwomen in the industry, which I'm
pretty passionate about as well, so tell us a little bit about
that.

Speaker 1 (01:04:01):
Well, if you wind the clock back, I started in the
building and constructionindustry in 1992.
I was yet to meet another womanin the industry for another 15
years after that.
It's really important for womento have role models and leaders

(01:04:22):
in the industry.
I'm not suggesting, it's notabout blowing my own trumpet,
but I wish that I had have hadsome mentors back in the early
days, because it was hard.
Yeah, yeah, very difficult.
Yeah, yeah, very difficult.

(01:04:44):
And what's happened over thelast probably 10, 15 years since
I've applied for awards formyself and then judging
positions, is I realized thatevery woman is incredible.
Any woman that survives in thisindustry is unique in some way.
Yeah, and they're always askingthe same questions oh, I could
never apply for an award, whyshould I apply for an award?

(01:05:07):
And when I met you at Level Upand you said to me oh, my
daughter is thinking about, youknow, coming into the
construction industry, itinspired me to write a couple of
blogs that would inspire notjust young women but women of
any age to to enter theconstruction industry.

(01:05:28):
It's not easy, but it's a hellof a lot easier than what it was
33 years ago there's a lot ofroom in the industry for females
well we need more females incommittees, in associations,
most definitely, yeah, look Idon't, I don't know why, um, why

(01:05:50):
there's not more?

Speaker 2 (01:05:51):
I'm definitely trying to do my best to encourage
people to get into the industry,like you.
Just, everything in the worldworks better when there's
there's two, two types of peoplein it, and I think it's fear.

Speaker 1 (01:06:03):
Yeah, yeah, a little bit of fear.
I I even notice like, over thelast decade, men men like
yourself are becoming moreconscious, right?
Not all men are becomingconscious, not all men are doing
the work on themselves right.

(01:06:23):
Self-development.
You talk about the stigma allthe time of meditating and that
sort of being a little bitwoo-woo, right, and you probably
are a bit woo-woo to quite afew blokes out there right.
But a lot of blokes.
Traditionally in theirbloodlines women would generally

(01:06:48):
have a more traditional role.
Yeah, so that's still very,very, very strong in a lot of
bloodlines.
And then I also find, even inmy own position, talking to you
know some building certifiersand commercial lawyers, there is

(01:07:09):
still a lot of ego there.
Right, yeah, men, men have abit of ego and they don't
necessarily they feel quitethreatened by a woman, not
because our intention is to makethem feel uncomfortable, but
sometimes they do.

Speaker 2 (01:07:26):
Oh, definitely, yeah, yeah, and there's no need for
it.
We all add value.

Speaker 1 (01:07:30):
We're all the same.
It's about collaborating, right?
Yeah, it's not about you beingright and me being wrong.
It's let's create a levelplaying field and come into
alignment.

Speaker 2 (01:07:42):
Yeah, I think there is the ego.
I feel goes both ways.
There is also some women in theindustry that they need to drop
the ego because it puts peopleoff.

Speaker 1 (01:07:56):
Well, it might be a little bit too scary for men as
well.
What inspired me to get into amale-dominated role is back in
1990, mum took a car for aservice and I saw a female
mechanic there and I said to mumthat's what I want to do.
I don't want to go back tograde 11.

(01:08:18):
I want to go to trade college.
So I spoke to a couple of theblokes in the workshop and they
said never again would we employa woman.
She's a destruction.
She's a pain in the ass, she's afeminist, you know all of that
sort of thing.
I did do the motor mechanicscourse, by the way, dwayne, yeah

(01:08:40):
, yeah and finished it withflying colours, but I couldn't
get an apprenticeship, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:08:46):
Yeah, no, look and look, definitely having two
girls.
Yeah, I'm keen to like, if Iwould love the industry to be in
a position, when they're readyto get a job, that they're
accepted into it.

Speaker 1 (01:09:00):
So on the website we've got a lot of links that
young women or women of any age,they could be a grandmother, a
lot of links to align them withassociations where they can find
jobs, they can find mentors,and then, in addition to that,
any woman that perhaps she mightbe a first year apprentice or a

(01:09:21):
woman that's leading or evenlaunching a new product, a whole
network of industry awardswhere she can apply for herself
and get that recognition because, look, let's face it with not
in construction awards, duane,but in in those awards, women in

(01:09:43):
construction that there's nocost yeah, yeah and it's all
free advertising.
You don't have to win to to beshowcased, yeah, yeah.
So you inspired me to to createthat and I believe it's an
awesome resource.
I think it's fantastic.

Speaker 2 (01:10:01):
I was really impressed when you sent me the
link to it.
There's so many.
I'm not sure if you know aboutthe girls in Tassie that have
created the Go Company.
It's the feminine packs forgirls to have on websites.

Speaker 1 (01:10:15):
I did, I did see that .

Speaker 2 (01:10:18):
Yeah, I just see a lot of things happening in the
industry that are changing it upand I guess blokes well, for
all the blokes that listen tothis podcast like, yeah, we need
to pull our head in, like we'vegot to be support, more
supportive and make women feelcomfortable in this industry and
and in return, the women cancan come back to their feminine

(01:10:42):
right and I've found that verydifficult and I'm still working
on it because I've had to bereally hard and I come across as
being incredibly aggressive atsome times, but it really is
passion.

Speaker 1 (01:10:57):
But a lot of women have to step out of that
feminine role to show up in theconstruction industry, be really
nice just to be able to sitback and still be soft and
gentle and nurturing andrespected and appreciated,
rather than having to to be sostrong, yeah, yeah, it must wear

(01:11:20):
you out sometimes oh yeah, Iwear myself out.
Yes, absolutely, absolutely theother thing.

Speaker 2 (01:11:27):
We'll start to wrap it up shortly, but the uh, the
other thing that I was really Ididn't realize you're um such a
big supporter of the tx guys.
Yeah, I, yeah, I love theblokes.
I think they do an incrediblejob where um um alliance members
with them with live life,builds so, um, like it's a, it's
a powerful message, isn't itwhat they absolutely look to

(01:11:50):
wayne, we have builders thatthat share quite a lot of
personal things with us.

Speaker 1 (01:11:56):
And again, my second opinion service.
That didn't start until the newenergy compliance code came in
Right.
So we've got builders that areprojects are going to the wall,
right yeah, or they're quotingon projects and then finding out

(01:12:17):
that they're not viable.
I've got to go back to thedesign board.
That affects everything, right?
Not just his quoting, but hislife, his marriage, his
relationship with his children.
Yeah.
Yeah, so it is legislationbuilding and mental health.
They all go hand in hand right.

(01:12:38):
Yeah, and 8,000, nearly nearly9 000 builder insolvencies yeah,
so mental health is one of thehighest things on my radar.

Speaker 2 (01:12:48):
absolutely yeah is it something that you've dealt
with personally oh my, yes, yeah, most definitely.

Speaker 1 (01:12:54):
I've spent a couple of decades on a personal healing
journey, a lot of trauma, infact.
In the last four years I'velost my mother, my father and my
grandmother, so all threepassed away.
So it's been a very tough time,particularly for the last five

(01:13:18):
years.
A very tough time, particularlyfor the last five years.
Uh, I've only just discoveredrecently I see a, a business
psychologist coach.
Yeah, two hours every fortnight.
I've been doing that for acouple of years now to teach me
to speak a little bit softer, alittle bit calmer yeah and it's,

(01:13:39):
it's been one of the one of thebest things, and I didn't
realize.
Work for me, because I'm abloody hard worker.
All the women in my family arevery hard workers.
It's actually a conditioning,yeah, but it's also a
destruction, yeah yeah yeah yeah, no, I think.

Speaker 2 (01:14:02):
Look, every, I think everyone deals with it in one
way or another, don't they likeit?
There's always something goingon in our lives that we've got
to try and push through and andum, and then trying to keep
motivated through those times.
It wears you out sometimes.
Yeah, yeah, no, look, helen, Ireally.
I appreciate I'm gonna getstuck into some of this food now
when we stop talking, but, um,look, we'll possibly get you

(01:14:25):
back for round two, I think, atsome point.
But I really appreciate youcoming on and just sharing your
knowledge, because I do thinkenergy efficiency is something
that is really, uh, overlooked,misunderstood, like people just
think that it's some tick andflick thing they have to do to
be able to build a house, but itactually plays a really

(01:14:45):
important role in the lifespanof the house, yeah, and the
health and comfort.
Yeah, yeah.
So no, I appreciate your time.
It's been really good havingyou.

Speaker 1 (01:14:54):
We will catch up so we can talk about an association
.

Speaker 2 (01:14:57):
Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely Stay
tuned for that one.
But look guys, as always, ifyou love this podcast, please
share, like, subscribe, leteverybody know about this
podcast, because we are on amission to make this Australia's
or continue to make thisAustralia's number one
construction podcast.
We'll see you on the next one.
Are you ready to build smarter,live better and enjoy life?

(01:15:19):
Then head over to live likebuildcom forward slash elevate
to get started everythingdiscussed during the level up
podcast with me, duane pierce,is based solely on my own
personal experiences and thoseexperiences of my guests.

(01:15:41):
The information, opinions andrecommendations presented in
this podcast are for generalinformation only, and any
reliance on the informationprovided in this podcast is done
at your own risk.
We recommend that you obtainyour own professional advice in
respect to the topics discussedduring this podcast.