You Gotta Learn to Crawl Before You Walk.

#73 Embarking on a career in the trade industry comes with its fair share of challenges and learning curves, something our guest, Josh Kernick, knows all too well. His story is not just about mastering the tools of the trade but also navigating the intricate world of construction with integrity and ambition. Stepping into our virtual workshop, Josh recounts the pivotal choices he made, including the tough decision to switch builders mid-apprenticeship—a move that ultimately steered his career toward a more fulfilling trajectory.

Throughout our candid discussion, we unravel the layers of craftsmanship that go beyond the woodwork. Josh's zeal for carpentry shines as he speaks to the heart of what it means to craft structures with precision and care, juxtaposed against the industry's harsh reality of cost-cutting and compromised quality. His journey is an eye-opening look at the business side of building, stressing the importance of a well-rounded skill set, and the delicate balance between maintaining high standards and the push for efficiency.

We delve into the nuts and bolts of effective mentorship, the significance of accountability, and the artful management of time that allows for growth without sacrificing personal well-being. So tune in, as we lay down the groundwork for success with our apprentice craftsman, Josh, guiding us through the framework of his developing journey.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Is it worth it?

Speaker 2 (00:01):
Is it worth being a builder?
Yeah, 100%.
G'day guys, welcome back toanother episode of Level Up.
We are back in the shed thisafternoon for another cracking
episode.
So something a little differentthis afternoon.

(00:22):
So we've been reaching out and,I guess, putting the word out
there to get a few young guys onYoung guys or girls, whatever
it may be.
So because I'm reallyinterested to hear their point
of view about how they feel theindustry works, how it operates,
how they've been treated, allthose types of things.
So, look, if you are a youngguy or go out there that's, in
the building industry then makesure you shout out because we'd

(00:42):
love to have you on.
But today we've got Josh here.
How are you, josh?
Hey, mate, good, awesome.
So Josh reached out to me awhile ago now, like I don't know
, perhaps four months, maybe.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
Five months yeah, two to three months ago sent an
email, sent a text, sent amessage.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
So Josh reached out to me and he's got ambitions to
become a builder and reached outto me because he just wanted to
have a chat and get some advice, learn more about the industry
and all those types of things.
And I said, mate, why don't youcome on the podcast?
Because these sorts ofconversations can help thousands
of people.
So, yeah, he's here today tohave a chat to us about his

(01:23):
journey, where he's come from,what he's been doing.
So, on and off, you've madeabout three and a half years
through your carpentryapprenticeship.
So, without going into hugeamounts of detail, because it'll
come out through theconversation, but you obviously
love the industry.

Speaker 1 (01:39):
Love it Love carpentry.
And so yeah, you started acarpentry apprenticeship,
obviously roughly three and ahalf years ago, yeah, three and
a half years ago, yeah, and I'veworked for a few different
builders good builders, badbuilders.
I've had a pretty good trackrecord with them and about a
month ago ended it with myprevious builder and then I took

(02:02):
a step back and decided to say,hey, let's take the next few
months to find out what's outthere.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
Find out what it means to be a builder.
So what made you pull the pinon your previous builder,
considering you're so close tofinishing your time?

Speaker 1 (02:19):
It's a bit of an interesting one.
They are a family friend first,before they were my boss and
there was a conflict of I feelwe had conflicting morals on a
situation that happened and,instead of potentially ruining

(02:41):
that friendship, decided to takea step back and move on and
that was really amicable andthey're amazing and I love them
and still talk to them and stillget advice from them and it's
awesome.

Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah, I know the guys you're working for and they're
great guys and they definitelydo some good work.
So what was your story previousto that?
So before that, you'd work witha couple of different builders?

Speaker 1 (03:06):
Yeah, yes, so I started off as a removalist,
picking up furniture and doingstuff.
And one day I was moving a manand he said hey, I like your
work ethic, I like how you move,you're a gun.
I want you to come and work forme as an apprentice.
Come make a career.
Removals is not a career.

(03:27):
And so I started on with himand he was great, we're doing
some really awesome work,renovations and new builds,
upper market stuff, great.

Speaker 2 (03:37):
And then I decided so up until that point, did you
ever consider the buildingindustry?
Was it on your radar?

Speaker 1 (03:45):
To be honest, I did carpentry in school, or rather
sorry, product design andtechnology and I loved it.
Loved working with my hands,loved designing things.
Obviously that's a little bitmore cabinet making and a little
bit more different from justbeing a carpenter in the
construction industry.
Went through school, did thatand then spent six months after
I finished school sitting aroundnot knowing what I wanted to do

(04:06):
in life.
So I figured what better way togrow up than move out of home
and move in a state I'moriginally from Victoria?
a little town called Ballaratand I wanted to kick start my
adult life by kicking myself outof the nest and moving up here
with not a lot of plans.

Speaker 2 (04:25):
So you moved up here.
You got a job as a removalistthat led to a carpentry
apprentice and then, yeah, thatfirst guy didn't work out, so
you left him and moved on toanother builder.
So I'm very curious because Ilove to improve.
I know there's definitely evenin my own building business.

(04:47):
There's always massive room forimprovement.
Like myself, my team membersand especially with younger guys
, I do feel for the younger guyssometimes, like the older guys
tend to give them a hard time,and especially when it comes to
I don't know look, I was thesame for many, many years ago.

(05:08):
I'd pull my team up on it nowregularly, like you just expect
people to know, and becauseyou're under the pump on site,
you're trying to get as muchwork as you can done for the
boss and so you're putting morepressure on the younger guys and
it can be like for differenttypes of people.

(05:28):
It can be a hard situationbecause they don't like being
driven all the time.
So I'm keen to hear from yourpoint of view, from a younger
guy that's been an apprenticefor a few years now with
multiple different builders.
So what's the main driversbehind leaving the other two
builders?
Was it a personality thing?
Was it a work quality thing?

(05:49):
So, first builder left.

Speaker 1 (05:52):
So I was working for this first builder that started
my apprenticeship and he wasgreat for all I knew.
I was very green, I was verynaive, I didn't know much.
So I was like I took a stepback and I was like maybe I'm in
a bubble, maybe I'm not, Idon't know.
So I had a friend, this familyfriend, that his father runs a
carpentry, he's a builder, heruns a business, and I said, hey

(06:14):
, can I come work with you for aday, for a week, just to gauge
what else is out there and tomake sure I'm not in this little
bubble where I'm potentiallyworking for a crappy builder.

Speaker 2 (06:29):
So, this is the first builder, because you've told us
a bit of a story like is thisfirst guy, the guy that you like
?
We're going back fixing thingsand you run like yes yes, so in
the email I sent you.

Speaker 1 (06:41):
Yeah, it's quite a funny story.
He was keen, he was ambitious,he was a bit older, he was like
30s, early 40s and yeah, he hada house that he bought.
It was his house and then we anold Queenslander lifted it up,
built it out.
The block was only about 8 to10 meters wide and then it went
back a couple of hundred metersand, yeah, we built it up and it

(07:05):
was cool, but in some areas hecut corners.
In this deck he cut corners andyeah, that made me take a step
back and think, oh, is he a goodbuilder?

Speaker 2 (07:19):
So you stood up to him on a certain occasion,
didn't you?
And so, even if he did it rightthe first time, he wouldn't
have to do it again.

Speaker 1 (07:24):
It's a funny story.
A bit of context needed forthat one.
So we had finished the job, wehad moved on to the next job,
and these pretty much what he,how he, did.
The deck was concrete, concreterisers, concrete steps, and
then he just laid bush batten orrough sawn down, screwed it

(07:45):
into the concrete and then wejust laid our decking on that,
me being a first.

Speaker 2 (07:49):
So no, no sort of damp proof membrane underneath
the batten.

Speaker 1 (07:52):
I think what we did was we put blackjack, or I
forget what the actual technicalname of it is.

Speaker 2 (07:59):
Bitumen paint.

Speaker 1 (08:00):
Yes, we put that down , which at the time I was like
oh yeah, cool.
But now I look back on that andI'm like, no, that's not how
it's done.

Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yeah, probably not the best product for that
scenario.

Speaker 1 (08:10):
No, 100% not.
So we did that, put the deckingboards down and this was during
the floods back in and theheavy rain back in 2021, 2022, I
forget which one and they werewider decking boards, 120s and
they kept swelling and poppingand kept popping the screws and

(08:30):
we kept going back.
This whole build was ninemonths and then we left, moved
on to the next job and we weregoing back.

Speaker 2 (08:39):
So what hardwood deckings?
What screwed into pine batten?

Speaker 1 (08:42):
Into?
Yes, that was just screwed intothe concrete floor.

Speaker 2 (08:47):
Yeah, and so the batten were popping off the
concrete, were they?

Speaker 1 (08:50):
The.
It was many reasons.
The batten were popping off.
The spacing for the deckingboards was too close together so
when the heavy rains came andthey swelled, they were pushing
against each other and pushingthem up and off.

Speaker 2 (09:07):
It was just trash and we kept going on that.

Speaker 1 (09:10):
And so the story is that I was very green and naive.
We were all there.
This was the third time.
We went back and the form wasthere, the builders there, and I
was like, oh, if we had justdone this properly from the
start, wouldn't this havehappened.
Just said it not even thinkingabout it, and the look of pain

(09:33):
on the builders face when I saidthat, coming from a first year,
he knew he stuffed up.
He would have been losingthousands of dollars on that.
It's kind of funny but alsokind of embarrassing.
I was just green and I openedmy big mouth around thinking
about it, but he kept it on thechin and I think he recognised
that he definitely cut somecorners there.

Speaker 2 (09:51):
It's not not to make any excuses, but there's a lot
of builders out there and tradesthat just they continue to do
things the way that they'vealways been taught.
They don't put any time intoeducation.
They, like so many trades andbuilders, don't even read the
specification documents orproduct data sheets or any of

(10:12):
that type of thing.
So they just they're doingthings without knowing if it's
right or wrong, like they'rejust doing it because that's the
way they've always been shownor taught or how they think it's
done.
So it's look, it's good thatyou've had I guess I don't know
if you call it balls or whatever, but you've obviously made a
call to move on to anotherbuilder after that to try and

(10:35):
find someone who you thought wasdoing things the right way.

Speaker 1 (10:39):
Yeah, definitely, and they were, and they were
incredible.
They didn't just do carpentry,they did everything.
And I'm so.
A lot of people don't like that.
A lot of people don't likepicking up a shovel, a lot of
people don't like picking up apaint brush.
They are so hyper-specialisedthat they oh, that's not my job,
but I ate that up.
I think it's a great skill tohave to know how to concrete, to

(11:01):
paint, to plaster, to, to doall this stuff on top of
carpentry, to do cabinetry, todo all this stuff, and because
of that, I was able to set up mylittle handyman gig that I do
and it's been a huge asset.

Speaker 2 (11:18):
Yeah, so don't don't take this the wrong way, but
like so, if you haven't finishedyour apprenticeship or you're
not qualified, how are yourunning a handyman business?

Speaker 1 (11:25):
So QBCC law is what is it?
If you're not, if you don'thave your cert 3 or you don't
have a trade under your name,you can't do any works over the
price of 3.3K 3,300, yeah.
I don't go anywhere near that.
I do handyman work so I wantedto do it properly.

(11:45):
A lot of people like it'sawesome, a lot of apprentices do
cashies, but I wanted to do itproperly from the start to gain
that experience of being able todo it properly.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
So you made the calls , you looked into it, so you're
doing it all about board.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
I kind of did a bit of a soft launch and it's still.
You know, I'm doing handymanwork here and there, but I'm not
pushing into it as heavily as Icould.
It's more just for fun, forexperience, for learning how to
talk with clients, learning howto do quotes, learning how to do
this stuff.
And I did it properly.
I set up an ABN, I haveinsurance, I have public
liability, I have properbranding, I have contracts that

(12:23):
I get clients to sign.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
Mate.
We need to get you on my QuoteEase Quoting Programme please,
mate.
It'll sort you out.
You'll smash out all yourquotes for your handyman work in
seconds.

Speaker 1 (12:32):
Definitely.
It's actually quite funny.
I just came across a limitationon the Quoting app that I'm
using at the moment.
That is not able to be bypassedin the app, so I'm actually
currently looking for a new appMate free trial.

Speaker 2 (12:46):
we'll hook you up, we'll train you, it's all.
We'll get you on board.
But well, look, I think that'sawesome, that you've shown that
ambition and you're doing that.
So where's the aspiration comefrom?
To be a builder?
You've been doing it a fewyears now.
You obviously have got todevelop a bit of a passion for
it.
Is it the work that's drivingyou?
Is it the possible financialoutcome if you run a good

(13:07):
business?
What's driving you?

Speaker 1 (13:09):
For me, it's carpentry, building.
It's not just a job, it's alifestyle and it's a passion.
I love working with beautifulbuilding materials.
I love the honour it is to workwith clients and you are.
It's awesome.
You are building their dreams.

(13:29):
You are making their dreamsbecome reality.
And what an awesome job that is.
What an honour it is to do thatand I want to do that for
clients and I want to do it well, especially in an industry
that's full of there's a lot ofgood builders and then there's a
lot of not good builders.
And the passion, the drive thatIs what drives me to wanting to

(13:53):
do this, to come on thispodcast to reach out to about
seven different builders thatI've worked for over the past.

Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yeah, it's definitely a shame.
Look how Our industry is fullof incredible builders,
incredible trades, but realityis a lot of them driven to do
Below-par work because they have, like, if they've got to get in
and out as quickly as possibleto try and make a dollar out of
it.
No one.
If only they put a little bitof time, energy and money into

(14:22):
Developing their knowledge andtheir skills and their business
and their mindset and all thosetypes of things and Realize that
it's not all about the bottomyeah line and the price, and the
other big driver for ourindustry is it's driven by
volume builders.
So in the volume building Marketit's not hey, here's a, we got

(14:43):
this job coming up To go totheir subbies.
Can you give us some pricing onall this?
It's like hey, here's 50 homes.
We're paying you $16 a linearmeter to throw out wall frames.
We're paying you $16 squaremeter paint it like you.
We're paying your $30 squaremeter lay tiles.
They set the rate.
So when it any Tileers,plumbers, concrease whoever it

(15:09):
may be, that get tied up in thatwork.
And don't get me wrong, there'splenty of trades out there
making a shitload of money, yep,doing work for volume builders,
but they are running around,like everyone that works for
them is running around.
It is all just get in, get out,and a lot of the time the next
trades covering up shit work bythe previous trade and the first

(15:31):
time it becomes apparent iswhen the homeowner has moved in
and there's an issue withsomething.

Speaker 1 (15:34):
Yes, so I had the opportunity to work for a volume
builder, cory Cory from idealawesome guy, contacted him, did
a little bit of work.
He's been on your podcast.
He's great.
What he's, what his crew dies,is amazing, and that was my
first experience being on, hedoes a carpentry work.

(15:56):
He's not a volume builder.
So I worked with them for aweek and it was awesome.
It was again trying to gain asmuch experience of how the
industry works, especially whenyou're in that little bubble,
you're doing Renault's, you justtinker away on a little
Queenslander.
It was awesome being on thatvolume site but, yeah,
definitely was sad seeing someof the other mobs and how they

(16:17):
Just cut corners and it justbroke my heart because this,
this isn't a job, this ispassion.
I love doing thing, I lovedoing carpentry and I love doing
it right.
Yeah and yeah, there's a lot ofcorners cut because all they
care about is money and I have astrong belief that you can run
a successful business withouthaving to cut corners and you

(16:38):
can without having to Takeadvantage of the clients not
knowing any better.

Speaker 2 (16:45):
Oh, mate, you don't have to cut to others.
I ran a very, very successfulsubcontract carpentry business
for years and years and there'sa lot of bills that I work for
that were paying me far morethan they're paying other gangs
that work for them.
And that was because of theyappreciated my skills, my
organization, my leadership andand they just knew if I come on

(17:06):
their sites and I we smashed outthe work that it would be.
It actually saved their moneyBecause they're supervised
enough to check our stuff.
But they just knew that if DPSconstructions was on the job,
then yeah the supervision wasspot-on.
And look at, that's all reasonwe're doing this podcast.
Like to level up the industry,like lift the game for everyone
involved, but like, what's yourplans moving forward?

(17:29):
Like, how are you going toupskill yourself to become a
builder?

Speaker 1 (17:33):
That's.
That's what this is all about.
I've taken my.
I've taken Until the end of theyear.
I've set myself a goal, and thegoal is I'm not a builder now,
I'm an apprentice.
I'm going to finish myapprenticeship, but what can I
start doing now to set myself upto become an excellent builder?

Speaker 2 (17:53):
So what are you doing ?

Speaker 1 (17:57):
A lot focusing on the business, learning how to talk
with clients, learning how to doquoting because so pretty much
I hear all these stories.
I hear all these stories ofthese builders that were
chippies and then they justbecome builders and the cert for
and it doesn't teach you how torun a business.
It doesn't teach you how to doall of that and and hearing all
these mistakes, misquoting andand just Things that they've

(18:20):
done wrong.

Speaker 2 (18:21):
But what are you doing to like?
Are you doing programs?

Speaker 1 (18:25):
You're doing courses, you got mentors my search for
and I'm trying to Took some timeto decide whether I wanted to
do the diploma or the cert, forI've now decided to do the cert
for a little bit more easier andand practical practical for
what I want to do.

Speaker 2 (18:41):
I I'm what's the differences in them?
I haven't done that.
I haven't done that sort ofthing, mate, for 27 years.

Speaker 1 (18:49):
Well, that's why I came.
I've been in contact with allthese builders, people like you
coming on this podcast.
It's because there's nolearning for online.
I'm trying to discover that andand and I'm sure there's a lot
of other blokes out there.
They have a lot of questions.
Pretty much the cert for issingle story new builds and your
diploma In this is so.

(19:11):
This is the search for andbuilding construction and the
diploma in building andconstruction.
The diploma allows you to gothree stories up and Unlimited
outwards, so you do townhousesthat are connected, and it more
focuses on the fire safetyaspect.
The diploma is pretty much thecert for.
It has all the cert for unitsand then there's just a couple

(19:31):
of other units on top of it butis this you're talking about?

Speaker 2 (19:34):
This is to get you builders license, or so I am,
because builders license is yougenerally get Like in Queens on
here.

Speaker 1 (19:42):
Anyway, you get low rise, medium rise and open yeah
so so to get your low rise youhave to do your cert for, and
then if you want to go get yourmedium rise, you have to do your
diploma To get the license thecert for doesn't give you the
license it it meets theprerequisite to go and Try and
obtain the license you have todo your cert for and then you

(20:06):
have to have two years as Like aregistered site supervisor, not
just a head foreman.
They've cracked down on that soI did all.

Speaker 2 (20:16):
I did all it was.
It was called somethingdifferent, but about Six or
seven years ago I did Everythingto get my open builders license
and I passed everything likepaid the money, did all the
courses over about 18 months,two years and I was completely
devastated at the end because Igot to the end and they're like

(20:36):
it's awesome, you've passedeverything, well done, ticked
all the boxes.
Now you need to go and work foran open builder for two years,
but you're not a builder.
Yeah, fuck that.
Why would I shut Great,profitable, successful building
business down to go and work foranother builder for two years?
100%.
So like I don't.
And look, I only did it to tickthe box.
Like just to from me.

(20:57):
It was just another thing to sayof Gain that knowledge.
I've got that experience.
I can tick a box to say I'vegot my open bills license, but I
never had any intentions ofbuilding High-rises or buildings
that required an open builderslicense.
But yeah, but what about?
Like actual skills?
So you're doing that to getyour?
I was gonna say business sidethings, but it's not even really

(21:18):
business side things but you'redoing that to to grow your
knowledge and get a certificate.
What are you actually doing tofurther your skills and Become
the builder that you seem sopassionate about trying to?

Speaker 1 (21:31):
level up.
I'm on the hunt for a goodbuilder that can teach me and
and grow me and actually wantsto invest in me to then Make me
a builder because I'm keen.

Speaker 2 (21:43):
I'm keen to deep dive , so don't think I'm Go for it,
go for it because I think thissort of conversation will help a
Lot of builders but also a lotof young people that are either
thinking about getting in theindustry or maybe having a hard
time in their apprenticeship orwhatever at the moment.
But so You're sitting theresaying you want to find a good
builder, like what is a goodbuilder to you?

Speaker 1 (22:04):
so I Initially started my goal as saying I'm
trying to find the perfectbuilder, and then I quickly
realized that's that's notrealistic, that's not how it
works.
No one is perfect, but there'sa very clear difference in the
industry, because there's a lotof good builders and there's a
lot of bad builders.
I'm trying to find the rightfit.

(22:24):
I'm ambitious, I'm keen and I'mtrying to find a builder that
that does the work that I wantto do and and and invest in his
boys, cares more about Not justthe business, but the boys.

Speaker 2 (22:36):
If you, if you have a happy crew, you're gonna have a
happy business so how I Lovethis because it's very it's
interesting here and differentpoints of views about so.
So, yeah, so you want to find agood builder.
So I'm hearing you want abuilder that has good culture in
their team, has good values,that invest time and money into

(22:59):
Helping you seem grow.
Is that correct?
Yeah, I'm assuming you want abuilder that does things to code
and quality work 100%, providesa good work environment.
Yeah, because one of thehardest things for like and I'm
sure a lot of business ownerswill agree me to out there one
of the hardest things for me asa business owner is Keeping a

(23:22):
team that gels.
Yeah, it's hard, man.
It's not like a game of footballwhere, like your side-by-side
and working with each other for80 minutes, like literally day
in, day out, your Over the topof each other.
You're helping each other outlike the way that I explained
all the time.
It's not like a.
You can have a company that has400 employees and they all sit

(23:43):
in their little cubicles andthey do little thing and they
have a little chat at smoke a.
Yeah, like Trades arephysically working side by side.
You're smelling each other.
You're getting sweet, sweetlives.
Yeah, dripped on you.

Speaker 1 (23:55):
So it is as a employee.
It is.

Speaker 2 (24:00):
Keeping the team Motivate, motivated, working
together, communicating Clearlytogether, getting on, because
everyone's got differentopinions, different beliefs,
different cultures, like allthat stuff.
But like I hear we, I hearwhere you come from, the about
finding a good builder.

(24:20):
But like for me as an employee,what are you going like if
let's say I was that goodbuilder, so I tick all the boxes
and you want to work for me?
What are you gonna do for me?

Speaker 1 (24:30):
so that's the thing.
I got a clarify to what.
When I say all this, I'mlooking for the best builder.
I don't mean to come off ascocky and arrogant.
No, yeah yeah, is it wrong forme to want to work for a good
builder.

Speaker 2 (24:42):
No, it's yeah, 100%.
I love it.
Yeah, I'm super keen to hearwhat are you gonna do for that
good builder.
That's the thing if you want tobuild.
That's gonna do all this foryou.
What are you gonna do for himor her?

Speaker 1 (24:58):
Bring value to the business.
Yeah, 100%, that's all it'sabout is it's the little things
as an apprentice, it's justrocking up on time, showing
interest, asking questions, notjust being a robot that gets
there's definitely a time andplace to be a robot and just do
what you told but but showing akeen interest and showing a
willingness to learn, bringingwhat I have to the table,

(25:20):
bringing the the, the few butvaried skills that I I have.
The fact that I came to I wasworking with one builder and
they they were all chippies andwe damaged an existing Part of
the house, just the wall.
We put a hole in the wall.
He's like, oh, how are we gonnafix this?

(25:41):
I'm gonna have to get theplaster in there.
We've been in gone and I waslike, oh, I know how to plaster,
I'm gonna do that.
I'm a handyman, I can do littlejobs like that.
So, personally for me, what Isee is that, personally for me,
what I see what I bring is Justthe different skill sets that I
have and trying to fit that intowhat the builder needs and

(26:02):
wants, because it's not about me, it's about what the builder
needs.

Speaker 2 (26:05):
Yeah, I heard um.
I heard this really explainedreally well in one of the
audible books I've beenlistening to lately and it look
it's never gonna happen.
But it was a story about um, avery ambitious young person
wanting to get into a job and hebasically was putting himself

(26:27):
out there and going to companiesand saying, like I will work
for you for free, like you're agreat company, I love what you
do, like I just want to workwith you, I'll do it for nothing
.
And he thought by saying thatand doing that that he was
providing incredible value.
But from an employee employerspoint of view, it it's not free
because someone's got to put ashitload of time and effort into

(26:49):
training you to become thatLike to learn the skills that it
takes to do that job.
So, like this sort of stuffreally does, um, I don't know.
It interests me now because,like I said before, you get the
tradies on site that just headdown, bum up because the boss or

(27:11):
whoever is above them iswanting so much work done so
they feel they don't have thetime to slow down and put the
time into showing an apprenticehow to do something, or even
another tradie for that matter.
So, yeah, it's finding thatcompromise between how do you

(27:32):
work together, how do you addvalue, how do you, I guess, grow
your knowledge and skills whenthe people on site aren't
necessarily taking the time toprobably train you as good as
they should Like?
I try and really drum it intomy team now, like one of my

(27:54):
favourite sayings at the momentis you have to slow down to go
forward.
So we can't just be head down,bum up all the time.
So if we want to train youngerguys better and get them to the
level that we need them to be,yes, things are going to slow
down and yes, things are goingto cost me more money, but we've

(28:17):
got to put the time into them.
So for you, as a young fella,how would you approach that on
site?
Or how would you like if youwere in that situation?
How would you approach thecarpenters or the lead
carpenters or supervisors or theboss of the company to say, hey
, look, I'm not learninganything.
Everything's too quick, noone's taking the time to

(28:39):
actually show me stuff.
How would you approach all that?

Speaker 1 (28:41):
Well, I think it's the role of the carpenters to
teach you.
Definitely, but you have totake control of your own
learning.

Speaker 2 (28:51):
Because a lot of people aren't.
People are trades.
They're not taught to beteachers.
They're not taught to beteachers, yep, asking questions.

Speaker 1 (28:57):
Just, you can never ask too many questions.
It's such a simple thing.
Ask instead of just being therobot and just watching them and
then doing it.
Say, hey, why do you do it thatway?
Why have you done it that way?
Have you done it differently inthe past?
What's the benefits of doing itlike that?
What are the disadvantages?

Speaker 2 (29:12):
So how would you handle someone that doesn't like
a hundred questions?

Speaker 1 (29:16):
This is going to sound a bit obnoxious and
controversial, but I wouldn'twork for them.
That's why I'm taking the timeto find a builder that fits me.
I've stressed it comes off ascocky, but it comes from a place
where I want to find a companylong term.

Speaker 2 (29:35):
So if someone's like I'm on my younger guys backs all
the time, like even when I wasan apprentice, my boss used to
call them story books and thenwhen I started my time, I called
them story books and when I wasdoing my pressure I was going
to say back in my day I'm notthat happy made.
Our nail bags were filled withstory books and those story
books were off cuts, a plier, aplasterboard, 70 by 35, whatever

(30:00):
it was, but you had story bookson you.
Now, with my team, they have tohave notebooks on them, yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:07):
I carry one on me all the time.

Speaker 2 (30:08):
Yeah, if you're getting told to do something
like you're taking notes, you'rewriting things down.

Speaker 1 (30:14):
I have notes for cut lists and then I have my to-do
list on my phone At the start ofthe day when we're going
through with the builder and thehead chippy or the foreman.
It's not just their job to planout the day.
It is their job.
But take control, that's what Ido.
I'm there, they're taking theirnotes for the day and I'm there

(30:35):
taking my notes as well, comingup with a list of things that I
need to do for the day, what Ican do for the carpenter, what I
can get him.
All of these things.

Speaker 2 (30:44):
I'm a big fan of having you need to have a target
.
So every morning having atoolbox meeting might be five,
ten minutes, but just especiallyfor younger people, every
single morning, whatevercarpenters are on that site,
whether it's two, three, five,ten, doesn't matter.
Have a quick chat, alright,guys, this is where we got to
yesterday.
By the end of today I want tobe here and like planning the

(31:08):
day so that, even as a youngcarpenter or apprentice that may
not have all the skills to dowhat's getting done, you have
focus for the day and I believethat by doing that, by the lead
carpenters or tradesmen on sitedoing that, I hope that it gives
younger guys like yourself, Iguess, the skills to be asking

(31:34):
like, alright, what do you wantme to do next If you're
finishing up one area?
Like what can I set upsomething over there?
Like what's coming up next, andI get some timber ready?
Can I get?
Can I move the scaffold?
Can I move the saw bench?

Speaker 1 (31:48):
Well, when you go through with the to-do list at
the start of the day, I don'thave to then ask them what's on
next?
I can go and get it set up.
I don't have to go up and say,hey, I've just finished nailing
this off, like, what do you wantme to do next?
I go up and say, hey, I've justfinished nailing this off, I'm
about to go start doing this, isit okay?

Speaker 2 (32:08):
Is that?

Speaker 1 (32:08):
something else you'd rather me do?

Speaker 2 (32:10):
And that's brilliant, because a lot of guys out there
are just going from one thingto the next like, alright, what
do you want me to do now?
Done that back again.
Alright, what do you want me todo now?

Speaker 1 (32:18):
Yeah it's a bigger picture and you've got to take
control of it.

Speaker 2 (32:24):
Yeah, look, I hope this conversation is opening up
at Canterworms for people thatare listening, because there's
so much going on here.
You literally have you havetradies or people that are
living their own little lives.
In there there's a particulartype of person and, like I said
before, like a lot of tradiesjust want to do their job.
They don't want to holdpeople's hands and they're not

(32:44):
taught how to be teachers andall that type of stuff.
And then you've got youngergeneration coming through that
are too busy thinking about thenext opportunity they're going
to get to look at social mediaon their phone.
So they're getting told likeand this is the biggest
frustration for myself or foreverybody in my team is okay.

(33:07):
So you ask what to do next orwhat's happening or what's going
on today.
We take the time to explain it,you take your notes in your
book, but it's gone straight inone ear and out the other and
ten minutes after the meeting,you're still asking again
alright, what are we doing now?
So, like I know, like attentionspans don't seem to be what

(33:33):
they used to, or is it becauseof the way that it gets
explained to you?
Like, what do you think happensin those situations?

Speaker 1 (33:41):
I find for me what works best is when you I'm a bit
better now, but when you're 19,16, you can be an apprentice.
It's scary having to do stuff,these big burly men telling you
what to do, but it causes you towant to rush through it and do
it and you've got to trainyourself to be like take the

(34:03):
time.
Okay, look, I'm not doing it asquickly as the carpenters are,
but what's better if I half askit and rush through it and go
and do it and then go up to themand say, hey, I've done this,
but it's all wrong, or taking astep back and saying, okay, how
do you want me to do this?
Just a little bit of criticalthinking.

Speaker 2 (34:22):
Yeah, do you think the one percent is important?

Speaker 1 (34:26):
The one percent?
Can you explain that to me,sorry?

Speaker 2 (34:28):
Mate, I'm just a massive fan.
A lot of my teams are a big fan.
Bye, yeah, sorry, like just,whatever you're told to do, you
just you always go that extraone percent, that extra little
bit, that extra little detail, alittle bit of extra effort,
like just impress.
I do that Do it to the bareminimum.

(34:48):
Do it to impress Every singlething you do.
Do it to impress.

Speaker 1 (34:53):
I'm probably for a lot of the carpenters I've
worked with and for.
I'm almost annoying in thataspect.
I'm constantly asking too manyquestions.
There's a time and a place toput your head down and do your
work.
You definitely got to earn yourstripes but I'm asking so many
questions and I'm trying to findthese little one percent that I

(35:13):
can do better.
What can I do for him now?
What can I do better?
Hey, last week, how did I go?
What can I do better this week?
All these little things I'mtrying to just chip away at so
that by the time I'm qualified,I'm a good carpenter.

Speaker 2 (35:27):
Like from an employee .
Like every trade I know, everybill I know could employ more
people tomorrow.
But that's, that's just reality.
That's not exaggerating.
But trying to find the rightapprentice, the right carpenter,
the right laborer is superdifficult because it's like

(35:50):
everyone's wanting, like no onewants to like.
When I did my apprenticeship anda lot of people my age, I'm
sure, will agree like, like Iknew what I wanted to be, so
that part of it was easy.
But like every single day Iwoke up and I rocked up to work.
I was there to impress and Ibusted my balls to get

(36:12):
everything done as quick as Iprobably possibly could, as good
as I could for the skills thatI had at the time.
But just every single day andmade I got screamed at, I got
shit thrown at me.
My boss used to call me youngand like all I heard all day was
fucking young.
And where are you?
Like I'm waiting.
Like if I'm standing around,I'm losing money, like what the

(36:33):
fuck are you doing?
Like every day.
And so I went through two bossesduring my apprenticeship.
I didn't finish, I only didthree and a half years, but I
haven't had enough skills and mymy last boss was good enough to
sign me off.
Yeah, but so it look and so Idon't.
They're very few and farbetween.
Like you know, like we've put,I couldn't even tell you off top

(36:55):
of my head how many apprenticeswe put through now in the last
20 years, but we're 18 yearsit's definitely a lot, but
they're few and far between,like the ones that just want to
try hard and impress everysingle day.
And I feel bad because, like Ithink back now, I think I'm sure

(37:17):
a lot of the kids that we'veput through that dropped off
would have actually been reallygood trades, but is it the way
that I've treated them?
Is it the way my teams treatedthem?
Could we have done thingsbetter?
So that's why I'm really keenon these conversations now,
because I do feel there's got tobe a better way.
Like it can't just be, we alljust can't be out there saying

(37:39):
that I just there's no good kidscoming for anymore, like
everyone's lazy, like no one,still everyone just wants the
most money and doesn't want todo the work to get it and all
that like.
So there's got to be a lot ofconversations had around these
topics, because I'm sure there'sa lot of young people out there
that will become great tradiesand great builders if they're

(38:00):
given the right opportunity.

Speaker 1 (38:01):
Yeah, so it takes two .
It takes an apprentice that'skeen and willing to put in and a
builder that's also willing toput in as well, and if you have
those two combinations right,you'll.
You'll grow this youngapprentice to becoming a great
chippy and potentially, one day,a great builder well, it's way

(38:22):
more than that.

Speaker 2 (38:23):
Like, yeah, you can't just be keen.
Yeah, you've like somethingthat I've learnt now, like
you've, you've got a it's.
You've got to have the rightattitude, you've got to have the
right mindset.
You've got to.
You've got to be calm.
You've got to.
You've got to understand that,yes, there's going to be things
that are going to be done yeahmultiple times is going to be
mistakes.
It's going to cost a bit ofmoney along the way you can

(38:45):
teach skills, but you can'tteach character.
You can't teach ambition so Imake characters the biggest
thing now, like I, I can teachsomeone or my team can teach
someone skills, but we can't.
Attitude is the most importantthing 100% and yeah, that's.
I don't know that's we weregoing all day.
We could definitely open a canof worms on that.

(39:06):
I'm pretty old school when itcomes to that sort of things.
Like I do believe the world'svery privileged now.
Everyone wants everythingstraight away and doesn't want
to do the hard yards, yeah, solong game.
There are a lot of people arejust looking at the short game
we still haven't figured out howyou're getting from where you
are now to being a builder.

(39:28):
So, like with questions, whatdo you got?

Speaker 1 (39:30):
I'm still figuring it out.
So pretty much some questions Ihave for you is and these are
earnest questions I want youradvice for me personally and for
other people that might be onthis journey as well.
What are some of the avenues Ican, I can take?
I'm doing my search for, I'mgoing to, I'm I'm contacting all
these different builders,getting different bits of advice

(39:50):
and tips from them.
Coaching programs I'm anapprentice.
I can't afford to to join HIAwith the however many thousands
of dollars it is a year to jointhem.
What are the avenues that thatsomeone like me, who is keen and
ambitious, can, can do tobecome a better chippy for a

(40:11):
builder?

Speaker 2 (40:13):
I mean, I don't.
I don't think there's anyexcuses these days, like there
is so much free information outthere and look, there is plenty
of incredible trades onInstagram, for example, that are
sharing incredible content.
The same YouTube mate.
There is some incredible tradesand builds on there that are

(40:36):
putting amazing knowledge andskills out there for you to
watch and learn from somethingoften that you've said, though,
in the past, is you have to payyour to pay to put into yourself
, to you've got to spend moneyon yourself that's it yeah, so
the quicker you can learn tospend like I wish I had a start

(40:59):
at spending time, money andenergy on myself in my early 20s
, not in my mid 30s.
And so there's all levels.
Mate, like, honestly, there isno excuses.
I I do lots of online stuff nowwith mentors, europe, states.
I generally like these days Ipay for the higher level ones,

(41:23):
but mate a lot of the onlinestuff with billionaires or
experts in marketing or expertsin business, experts in finances
.
Mate, you can get a ticket tomost online events for $99.
Yeah, so there is no excuses.
But if you can't come up with$99 to spend on yourself to
boost your knowledge and youryeah like just your, the

(41:50):
information that you can get putin front of you.
Like to me, like I said, like tome these days it's all excuses,
like there is always a way toget and books and podcasts.
There's so much informationabout it's a podcast of well
more.
So, audible books have changedmy life.
I've learnt just as much fromlistening.
So, mate, audible books.
What is it?

(42:10):
1495 a month or something?
I've learnt just as much, ifnot more, from audible books
over the last five or six yearsthan the hundreds of thousands
of dollars that I've spent withcoaches, mentors and programs in
the last probably four or fiveyears.
So no, yes, it's definitelyworth paying the bigger money

(42:33):
when you get to that level thatyou can with these programs,
because for me, like the programitself, like whether you pay
$99 or $12,000, you're gettingthe exact same information.
The difference is thatgenerally, after the event, it's
the connections and it's thenetworking.

(42:54):
That's again, you pay thebigger money because the
knowledge and the relationshipsand the networking that you get
out of that is worth everysingle cent.
But, like I said, the $99 jumpin, get the recording of the

(43:16):
Zoom, like get to join it onZoom or whatever man, just jump
on board.
Definitely yes.

Speaker 1 (43:23):
I've bought a lot of books, I've listened to a lot of
podcasts, I've signed up to goto a couple of the master
builder sessions, and there'splenty out there 100%.

Speaker 2 (43:35):
My biggest thing now, mate, if I could go back.
If someone asked me what adviceI would give to a 20-year-old
Duane mate, I can tell youstraight away it's going to be
putting that extra 1% Everysingle day.
So I'll list the day out foryou.
You get up early.

(43:55):
You get energised.
You show up early.
Don't show up on times late.

Speaker 1 (44:01):
Especially when it comes to tradies 100%, you
should be on site before thetradies.

Speaker 2 (44:06):
If you're working with other tradies, with other
builders, and you're anapprentice, you're a labourer,
you're a young guy that'swanting to learn, you should be
on site before anybody else.

Speaker 1 (44:16):
You're there with your tools out already to then
help the tradies take theirtools out.
That's what I've always triedto do.

Speaker 2 (44:21):
You should be turning up, showing that shows your
keen, it shows your enthusiasm,it shows your motivated.
You should be there unlockingthe gate so that when the
tradies turn up, they back theirtrailer in or back their u-din.
Before my boss had even turnedhis engine off, I was unloading
gear out of the back of theu-din.
I wasn't waiting for him totell me every day oh, we're

(44:41):
doing this today, we need that,we need that.
You should know.

Speaker 1 (44:45):
It's again that touch on that being a robot versus
having a little bit of criticalthinking.

Speaker 2 (44:48):
So wake up early, show up before everybody else.
If there's nothing to get ready, grab a fucking broom and start
sweeping the job out ofcleaning the site.

Speaker 1 (44:59):
There's always something.
Well, there's not nothing to do, there's always something to do
.

Speaker 2 (45:02):
There's always something to do.
And then when it comes to theactual work mate, like just
communication, like I said, Ifeel for a lot of younger guys
that I've put through their timebecause I was going down the
track like I was taught, I'dyell and scream and kick people
in the ass and it's not theright way.
So, and look, I've still got alot of room to improve on it.

(45:26):
But I'm really big oncommunication and if I think
back now, that would be myadvice to the 20-year-old me
don't just yell and scream atpeople.
Take the time to figure out thetype of person they are, the
personality.
Figure out what type of person,how they learn.
Like, do I need to draw thempictures or point things out to

(45:49):
them more?
Because I know for me the way Ilearn is by writing things down
, taking notes, scribblingthings on pieces of paper.

Speaker 1 (46:00):
So Everyone's different and you've got to
adjust the way that you approachpeople differently to how they
are and who they are.

Speaker 2 (46:07):
Yeah, my biggest mistake mate with not just
younger guys but anyone thatworked in my business for a long
time was I was trying to makethem me Like I could smash it
out, I could do this, I could dothat, and I was always angry
because I was like why the fuckcan't you do that Like.

Speaker 1 (46:24):
How can?

Speaker 2 (46:24):
I do it in this amount of time and it's taking
you that amount of time, likeeverybody's different.
So, yeah, figuring that out,but, yeah, show up early, put in
the effort, show your keen, askquestions.
The 1%, like honestly, it'sthat 1% and that 1% needs to
flow through not just youngerpeople but the entire industry

(46:45):
and look, this will definitelystir things up.
But what's it been?
Now?
Running my own business 20 oddyears, I've only had a couple of
dozen times where people thatwork for me have given me a
Christmas gift.
Like people think this doesn'tmean much, but to me this is

(47:08):
super important.
I don't believe employeesshould give Christmas gifts.
We always do it.
We do it most of the time.
We give bonuses and things but Idon't believe we should.
It should be the other wayaround.
People should appreciate thatthey, like someone, is employed,
they've got a job, they'regetting paid every week.

Speaker 1 (47:29):
Especially if they're good and they're feeding into
you, so doesn't have to be huge.

Speaker 2 (47:32):
Give your boss a $10 scratchy at Christmas time.
Give the boss a scratchy on hisbirthday.
Show the company you work forthat you appreciate having a job
.

Speaker 1 (47:41):
I've done that with my previous boss.
He was doing a little job onhis house where you had another
job going on and I said, hey,like you're doing the sheeting,
Like I will come in on theweekend and I'll help you sheet.
Thanks for the job that you'vegiven me, Thank you for the
opportunities you've given me,the skills that you've taught me
100% like.

Speaker 2 (48:03):
It's a very different world, mate.
And look, I'm not saying it tobe a dick.
My boss was renovating hishouse, like I used to same as
you just said, like I wouldliterally go.
All right, mate, what's goingon over the weekend working on
your house?
Oh, yeah, sweet, what timetomorrow.
I got nothing on.
I'll come and help you.

Speaker 1 (48:19):
It's just DSC.

Speaker 2 (48:21):
For me it was just I was furthering my skills, I was
getting more knowledge, likebecause it was more time on the
tools.
It was more time doing work.

Speaker 1 (48:27):
It's not that hard.
There's so many like just put alittle bit of effort in.
There's so many people thatjust put in 90%.
Just put some blimmin' effortin.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
Yeah, mate, getting ahead in life, getting the job
you want, having the financialsituation you want, is really
not that difficult, it's not.
It's just people aren'tprepared to put in that extra 1%
.

Speaker 1 (48:50):
Yeah, and to have integrity and to work hard and
it's not that hard.

Speaker 2 (48:55):
Yeah, so what else you got for me, mate?
What other you come here foradvice.
What do you want?

Speaker 1 (49:02):
One thing I wanted to touch on was obviously I'm
doing my handyman work.
I'm doing weekend work withblock layers, I'm doing weekend
work with all these otherdifferent trades, trying to pick
up little bits of the differentskills.
So you're doing that for free,no, so I've no.
So Well, I've told a few of theother trades I've met on site.

(49:26):
I said, hey, let me know If youever need an extra set of hands
on the weekend.
Here's my number.
Please call me.
I'd love to learn how to layblocks, had love to learn how to
do polished concrete, how to doall of this and what.
The question I had was what'syour take on?
Everyone's specialized thesedays.

(49:50):
Everyone's so hyper-specializedin doing different aspects of
carpentry.
Some carpentry mods only docliting and some only do this
and some only do that, andthat's great and there's
definitely a market for that.

Speaker 2 (50:00):
But Again, that's driven by the volume.
Builders mate.
They get a carpenter gang intothe frame.
They get a gang into thewindows and suites and cladding.
They get a gang into do theinternal fit-off.

Speaker 1 (50:12):
People are so afraid to just go out of their bubble
to pick up a shovel or to dothis.
Like we had some concrete bagsdelivered the other week and the
truck driver was like, yeah,you guys need to take them off
the truck.
We don't Company policy, wedon't take them off the truck.
What?

(50:33):
Just put some work in, Put someeffort in.
Everyone just wants to do theirown little thing and they don't
want to broaden their skill set, they don't want to pick up a
shovel, they don't want to do alittle bit of painting, a little
bit of this, a little bit ofthat.

Speaker 2 (50:48):
Look, I think it depends on Well, it depends on
who you're working for.
Yeah, I'm not making excuse forthat truck driver, but that
sort of thing is driven by lawsand people suing and all that
type of rubbish, 100%, and Idon't realize that.

Speaker 1 (51:03):
I understand that it's multifaceted in that way.

Speaker 2 (51:06):
But yeah, look, I'm definitely a fan of the more
skills you can have, the better.
Like in my business, our boyshave a crack at everything.
We do concreting, do roofingyeah, awesome.
We've never really done muchtiling.
Over the years we've done alittle bit of plastering, but
again, you've got to look at itboth sides Like I think that's

(51:28):
fantastic and I love that.
I've got an incredibly skillfulteam.
I love that myself and mysupervisor and my lead
carpenters have a lot ofexperience.
But there's people out therethat don't want to do all that.
There's people out there thatjust want to go and work for a
builder and turn up every singleday and do all the carpentry.

Speaker 1 (51:48):
Just get paid.

Speaker 2 (51:49):
And look, there's definitely a lot of people out
there.
So these days you've got, socarpentry, these days you can do
a full apprenticeship doingframes, cladding, fit outs, and
you get a carpentry license and,like I believe, you're not a
carpenter.
And we've employed carpentersthat have come to me for a

(52:10):
carpentry job and haven't toldme like I've asked them all the
questions, they've told me theycan do everything, put them on a
fit out, and they're 30 yearsold and they can't hang a door.

Speaker 1 (52:19):
They're quicker putting up frames, they're
quicker cutting and doing allthat, but then you also got
plastering Like plastering.

Speaker 2 (52:25):
These days you can get a sheeting team, a setting
team, a corners team, a sandingteam.
So you've got plasters outthere that aren't fully
qualified as a plasterer thatcan do everything.
So it's just the way theindustry is going, because and
again, it's a lot of it's drivenby volume builders with tight
schedules and just get in andget out and everyone's in a rush

(52:47):
.
But I think it's very importantto be skilled or at least have
a little bit of knowledge abouteverything, especially if you
want to become a builder.

Speaker 1 (52:58):
I feel exactly the same and that's why I'm doing
the handyman business and tryingto pick up a little bit of
everything.
As a builder, you need to knowhow blocks work.
You need to know how tilingworks not to the full extent
that the trades do, but you needto have a clue and these
chippies that just come throughand work for framing mobs, and
then you can go and become abuilder after that, after you do

(53:20):
set four Like they shouldn't bebuilders, you need to have an
idea about all the other tradesand how it works.

Speaker 2 (53:29):
Yeah well, and you need to make sure you employ
trades that are as passionateabout what they do as what you
are about, as you do, whereaswe've employed carpenter gangs
over the years, mate, that havelike I've done I've tried to do
my homework, I've asked all thequestions.
They've fit the bills, so we'vegiven them work to do.
They've, like one guy inparticular, had quite a large

(53:53):
team come in through a frame up.
It was rough as guts and thencracked the shits because I
wouldn't pay him.
His last draw, that he put inand argued for a week or two,
gave him plenty of opportunityto come back and get it.
This wasn't even to my standard.
This was to pass the engineersinspection and he didn't want to

(54:17):
do it.
So that particular job ended uptaking nine of my carpenters
two weeks to get that frame upto our standard but also to pass
frame inspection.
And that particular person outthere now on social media has
run a massive carpenter gangsdoing his own spec is like all
types of stuff.
So look, hopefully, since hedid that that was, I don't know,

(54:39):
maybe nine years ago Hopefullyhe's up to his skills and he's
running a better business thanhe was back then.

Speaker 1 (54:47):
But is it scary, like as a builder, having to like
obviously you've been buildingfor many years, have you got
your trades?
Pretty fine tune.
You have your guys that you goto, that you can trust.

Speaker 2 (54:58):
Oh look, definitely we've got fantastic trades, but
the reality is mate well,especially now, the building
code is having the biggestchanges it's had in I forget
what it is 20 or even 30 years.

Speaker 1 (55:11):
Yeah, I think it was like 20 years.

Speaker 2 (55:13):
So, unless you're out there, unless my trades and I
know it's few of them are, butunless my waterproofer or my
Tyler or my window company or mythe designers and architects
that I work with, the certifiersI work with, unless they're all
out there going to theseseminars and reading all the
emails that we're getting sentfrom our licensing bodies and

(55:34):
upskilling themselves to like, Ineed to be over this shit.
I can't just rely on trades,like I can't rely on a building
designer.
Well, the ones we work with Ican, but I still like to have my
knowledge around it.
But, yeah, I think builders arebad for that.
They they rely too much on thepeople they're employing to do

(55:57):
the work and then crack theshits when something's wrong or
not right.
Supervision, to me, is thenumber one most important thing
to having a successful buildingbusiness.
Yeah, and it's probably anotherthing that gets overlooked by
clients.
Again, volume builders, Ibelieve, have nowhere near

(56:18):
enough supervision because theymight have one supervisor
looking after 10, 20, 30, 40, 50jobs.
Yeah, it is impossible for onesupervisor when you take the
driving time in between, Likefor us, like myself and my
supervisor, like we only havelast year we got up to a point

(56:39):
where I think we had nine jobson it once at all different
stages and sizes and, like mate,that was hard for the two of us
to stay on top of everything.
Like supervision, like as abuilder, I think it's definitely
something that a lot ofbuilders overlook and don't
allow enough time and a lot ofbuilders sort of get to a point

(57:00):
where they just think, oh yeah,I can sit back in the office and
run everything from here, butsupervision is the absolute key
to having a business thatprovides your clients the
quality that they deserve to begetting.

Speaker 1 (57:14):
Do you feel like there should be more
accountability for the othertrades?
100%, because it always comesback to the builder.

Speaker 2 (57:20):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (57:21):
Which doesn't seem fair.

Speaker 2 (57:22):
Yep, no trades, 100%, mate, but our last-seeing
bodies.
They tried that for a littlewhile and then they went back to
the way it is now, because it'stoo many people to try and
change, the waterproofing fails.

Speaker 1 (57:31):
It's not the waterproof, it's the builder's
fault.

Speaker 2 (57:33):
Yeah, but again, look , I don't mind it the way it is.
Like, if I want to be a builderand I want to charge what I
need to charge to run asustainable, successful,
profitable building business,then it is my responsibility to

(57:53):
make sure that every singlematerial is fit for purpose,
that every trade does whatthey're meant to do, that my
sites are safe and secure, likefor me.
It's simple as that.
I am the builder, I am theprincipal contractor.

(58:15):
Everything is my responsibility.
I don't point the finger atanybody.

Speaker 1 (58:21):
That's good.
I think a lot of builders needto hear that and actually do
that.
There's a lot of builders thatdon't take responsibility.

Speaker 2 (58:27):
Well, look, I've learned a lot of expensive
lessons, mate.
It hasn't always been that way,but these days it's black and
white.
Contract says that me myself,as a principal contractor, is
responsible for every singlething that happens on a job site
.
Even if the owner's suppliedsomething or the owner's engaged
in another contractor, it is myresponsibility to make sure

(58:49):
that that contractor does thingsas per building code or as per
specifications.
A builder just can't throw hishands in there and say, oh look,
that's not my problem.
The client engaged thatcontractor.
It's black and white.
The builder, as a principalcontractor, is responsible for
everything that happens on abuilding site.
It's black and white, 100%.

(59:11):
Do you still want to be abuilder?

Speaker 1 (59:13):
That's the thing.
I have the ambition and thedrive to want to be a builder.
But then I look at all thesebuilders and I'm like no, it
seems too stressful.
That's why I'm taking the timenow to try and set myself up, so
I can hopefully bypass some ofthose mistakes that a lot of
builders make.

Speaker 2 (59:33):
Yeah, look, we Look.
You might live like Bill Benes.
We have so many members nowsigning up to that that can see
what we're doing and they'veworked for builders that are
running a shit show and they'vejust seen for their whole
apprenticeship that they'veBuilders being pulled in their
hair and winging about everyoneand having all these issues.

(59:56):
So we've got so many.
We've got guys that aresupervising for builders that
are trying to get theirbuilder's license.
We've got guys that arecarpenters that want to become
builders.
We've even got guys thathaven't even finished their
apprenticeship yet and soactually going back to you
saying that they're $1000, youcan't afford things.
We've got guys that areapprentices that are fourth year

(01:00:20):
apprentices, know that theywant to.

Speaker 1 (01:00:23):
A part of live life.

Speaker 2 (01:00:24):
Yeah, they know they want to become a builder.
They've heard all the shitstories, they've worked for
people that have been runningterrible businesses and they
want to put themselves on thefront for it and just hit the
ground running.

Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
Well, that's why I came here to ask you about, like
, how they're investing.
What can you do?
Yeah, as an apprentice, setyourself up.
Yeah, so they're investing.

Speaker 2 (01:00:42):
Yeah, and look, it's a lot of money they're investing
in themselves.
But look for me, look, it'seasy for me to sit here and say
it's easy For me.
I would.
Me personally, and I've donethis through a lot of time in my
life I would rather drive a$2000 shit box car and put all

(01:01:06):
the money into the tools that Ineed to do my trade, the courses
I need to do to get to where Iwant to get to, rather than and
look, you hear this story allthe time.
So I'm quite happy to not go onholidays or not be out three
times a week with my friendseating out or going to the

(01:01:28):
movies, or, yeah, like you canstill have a good life for not a
lot of money.

Speaker 1 (01:01:32):
But you're career.
You might as well invest in itif you're going to be doing it
for the rest of your life.

Speaker 2 (01:01:34):
Invest in yourself and invest in.

Speaker 1 (01:01:37):
And don't even get me started on the cars that some
of these apprentices are driving, when they're throwing all
their money at those.
Well, this is a thing everybody.

Speaker 2 (01:01:47):
There's two things that people tell me all the time
now because they see what I'mdoing, they see all these
businesses I got and that I'mteaching other builders how to
do things, and two things that Iget told constantly.
Number one is I don't haveenough time.
Number two is I can't afford it.
I use those same two excusesfor a long, long time and I'm

(01:02:08):
quite happy to sit in there andtell everybody that that's all
there are.

Speaker 1 (01:02:11):
They're excuses If you want something, you make the
time.

Speaker 2 (01:02:16):
If you want something , you find the money.
Sell something Like don't drivearound Some of these people
that are telling me this I drivearound in a, the V8 Land
Cruiser.
Well, a V8 Land Cruiser or somesort of new dual cab, yeah,
yeah, they got a trailer full ofall the Milwaukee or McKee or
whatever it is.

Speaker 1 (01:02:31):
They got the $30,000 trailer, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
So and I actually only said this to someone the
other day that called me,because I get lots of people
reaching out wanting to adviceand shit and I was giving this
person advice and everything Isaid they had to come back for,
and I ended up saying to themyou can give me all the excuses
you want, you're never going tochange my mind because I've done

(01:02:55):
that all worse, Like I've losthundreds of thousands of dollars
, if not millions of dollars.
I've nearly been broke a coupleof times.
I've been fined by workcoverings, had to pay super back
.
I've had terrible situationsI've lost money on.
I've done everything thatpeople give me excuses.

(01:03:16):
And the way that I look at itnow is if I can turn like going
from the person that I was tothe person I am now.
Anybody can do it.
Because I was Mate, I had theshitest mindset, I thought I
knew everything.
I lost heaps of money.
There is no excuse someone cangive me.

Speaker 1 (01:03:38):
That you haven't made .

Speaker 2 (01:03:39):
That I haven't made.
So you've got to put in thetime and the effort.
If you want something badenough, you will make it happen
100%.
So what else you got for me,mate?
I want you to leave thispodcast today on fire.

Speaker 1 (01:03:54):
You've given me a lot to think about.
Honestly, I'm almost lost in myown head about it, but I want
you to walk out of here todayand go.

Speaker 2 (01:04:02):
I'm going to be a builder.
I'm going to do this shit.
I'm going to find out, I'mgoing to do whatever it takes.
I'm going to be the bestbuilder I can.

Speaker 1 (01:04:08):
Is it worth it?

Speaker 2 (01:04:11):
Is it worth being a builder?
Yeah 100%, if Anyone that'sfollowed me for a while, like
I've talked about my story a lotLike being a builder is the
only thing that I ever wanted.
To be One of those lucky people, that, just that's it.
That's all I wanted to be fromas young as I can remember, and

(01:04:33):
so I became a builder.
I dropped out of school when Iwas 15.
Like, I actually got suspendedfrom school about two weeks
before the end of year 10.
So I really didn't even finishyear 10.
But I yeah, like I just Icouldn't get an apprenticeship.

(01:04:55):
I went and worked in a trust andfame factory.
Like I just I took small steps.
Like I worked there for two anda half years.
So I was 15 years old and Iloved it, mate, and I was
working as hard as the guys thathave been there for 20 years.
I worked my ass off and Ibulked up.
I used to walk around the yard.
I used to be able to go out inthe timber yard because I ended

(01:05:16):
up being on the cutting bencheswith a huge saws, and I used to
be able to go out in the timberyard, grab six, six meter, 90 by
35s, throw them on the shoulder, carry them back to the saw
bench.
I loved it, yeah, awesome.
And then my old man's in theindustry and he found out he got
a.
One of his mates was lookingfor an apprenticeship so he
launched it for a short.

(01:05:37):
Got that didn't finish myapprenticeship.
Started contracting Actuallydidn't finish my apprenticeship.
I went and worked for my oldboy for about 18 months painting
and then developer.
He was working for wantedcarpenters, went and worked for
him.
Well, he said to me oneafternoon.
He said hey, dwayne, you're acarpenter, aren't you?
Why don't you get off the brushand come and swing a hammer
again?
So that long story short, thatled to me starting my

(01:06:00):
contracting career grew up amassive contract carpentry
business did that until I hadenough experience to get my
bills licensed, went and did mybills license course.
So I had my bills licensed bythe time I was 25, I think.

(01:06:20):
And then literally 25, 26, Ithink I was actually, and
literally by the time I was 32,mate, I was out, I was ready to
go and clean toilets and hatedit, hated the industry, hated
everything about it.
I'd lost hundreds and hundreds,if not millions, of dollars,
just everything I'd worked forin my car.

(01:06:42):
I'd built up such a at a youngage investment portfolio of
properties, all this stuff andliterally within six years of
getting my bills licensed, justhad lost it and the passion was
gone.
So going from a point wherelosing it all, starting again
and then getting to where I amnow, it is 150% worth it.

(01:07:10):
So the biggest change in thelast 10 years has been the
amount of time, money and energyI put in myself.
That is my number one thing now.
I'll invest, whatever it takes,time, money, energy in myself
and then that has flown in.
Come back to developing systemsand processes in my building
business that are like nothingelse in the industry, combined

(01:07:32):
with joining up with my businesspartner, merely Lee, and
creating Live Like Build, andthen taking everything that we
were using in our buildingbusiness with her knowledge from
home owners and just takingthat to the next level and now
just the passion that I have nowis just insane.
So absolutely it is worth it.
But I think most people getthey get so caught up in

(01:07:56):
thinking that as soon as theybecome a builder, everything's
going to be fine, they're goingto earn lots of money.
It doesn't happen.

Speaker 1 (01:08:05):
You don't make money on some jobs, don't?

Speaker 2 (01:08:07):
you and they lose the passion very quickly.
So that is why, like thosetypes of stories is why, like I
said, we've got people in Live,Like Build, that aren't even
finished their apprenticeshipyet, haven't even got their
bills licensed yet.
But this story mate is ripe inour industry.
So these people are getting onthe front foot.

(01:08:29):
They're putting in the dollars,they're putting in the time,
they're putting in the effort.
So by the time they start theirbuilding business, they've got
all the documents in place, theyunderstand all the contracts,
they've got all the systems andprocesses ready to go, they've
got all the knowledge andexperience they need to know how
to build a team, they know howto do their marketing and they

(01:08:49):
just hit the ground running.

Speaker 1 (01:08:51):
That's awesome.
That's so good to hear that,because that's what I'm trying
to do.
I'm trying to set myself up,and that's awesome to hear that
there's other people out therethat are ambitious and want to
grow and learn and setthemselves up well to become
great builders.

Speaker 2 (01:09:04):
You'll only ever get so far, mate, talking to people.
You've got to spend time andmoney to get yourself to the
next level.

Speaker 1 (01:09:11):
How do you juggle?
Because I'm a young man, I havea partner.
I love spending time with her.
How do you juggle?
Because it's addictive, theself-improvement and the wanting
to grow the business and to doall these things how do you
juggle it?

Speaker 2 (01:09:30):
Do you do personal scheduling?

Speaker 1 (01:09:34):
I do no.

Speaker 2 (01:09:38):
You've got to schedule things, mate.
So everyone quite I get told bya lot of people actually had a
guy pull me up on it the otherday, telling me that he didn't
think that I appreciated sleepand had I done enough homework
and do I realise how importantsleep is.
So I had to tell him this wholestory.
I've never been a big sleeperand I've had sleep apnea since

(01:10:00):
my late 20s and all this type ofstuff.
But I schedule.
I'm super big on scheduling now.

Speaker 1 (01:10:09):
Can you clarify what you mean by that, because I have
a calendar and I put my stuffin there and I have some to-do
lists.
What's scheduling for you?

Speaker 2 (01:10:21):
So I'd always get this story wrong, but I'll tell
my version of it.
So there's a story about aglass jar and filling it up.
So if you have a glass jar andsomeone says, hey, fill that
glass jar up, and they give yousome rocks, so you put the rocks
in there and you fill it up asmuch as you can and the person
says, well, is it full?
Yep, can't get any more rocksin there.

(01:10:42):
So they give you pebbles.
You put the pebbles in thepebbles, fill the gaps and go
all around the rocks.
Is it full?
Yep, can't fit any more in.
Then they give you sand.
You pour the sand in.
The sand fills all the littlecrevices and it fills it jam
packed and it's full.
Yeah, no, it's not.
So then they give you water andyou take the water in the water

(01:11:03):
seeps into the sand and thenyou've got a full jar.
So our lives are exactly thesame and it's all about being
organized.
So I do far more now than mostpeople.
I do more now in probably oneday than a lot of people do in a
week, and yet I've got morefree time than what most people

(01:11:24):
have.
So so many people say to me youwork too hard, like, and you'll
get a lot of this from familyand friends the more that you
start to improve.
But family and friendsconstantly tell me oh, you work
too hard, duane, you're alwaysworking.
That's because that's all theysee.
They don't see that I'm likethis weekend I'm heading off
right at Saturday morning, man,I'm going on a farm.
For three days I'm building mydriveway.

(01:11:45):
I love the shit.
I spend a lot of time with mykids and my wife Like.
We sit down every night.
We like do shit with the kids,whether it's playing games,
watching TV or documentaries orwhatever.
So the only reason we can dothat is because we schedule
everything, and this started inLiveLock Bill.
We do what we call Sundayplanning sessions and that's in

(01:12:08):
there, because the first thingmy wife and I did have to be six
or eight years ago.
Everything was shit.
We never had any time, alwaysrun around putting out fires,
picking kids up, dropping kidsoff.
Never seen each other racingaround all day, cooking dinner,
washing the dishes, cleaning upKids, go to bed, sit down for 10
minutes, go to bed, wake up, doit all again.

(01:12:29):
And it was shit and we're likewe can't keep doing this.
So my wife wanted to do someexercise.
I wanted to do some exercise.
She put in Pilates in thecalendar.
I put in.
I started going bush walkingwith some mates on a Tuesday
morning and mate, it was only acouple of weeks and we're like,
holy shit, like ourconversations are changing, like

(01:12:50):
you're actually she's gettingtime to do a couple of exercise
sessions.
People are asking me hey, needto meet you on site tomorrow.
I'm like I know it's Tuesday,I've got something booked in.
I can't meet you.
I'll meet you at nine o'clockor I'll meet you on Wednesday,
and so we just kept adding to it.
So I'm a massive fan that youhave to fill your calendar with
all your personal stuff first,and you can do this whether
you're an employee or anemployer.

(01:13:10):
You just got to juggle itaround to make it work.
So if you want to do yourexercise, put that in Like.
So in my calendar.
Family holidays, long weekends,take the kids to school, pick
the kids up, date nights, likeall the personal stuff goes in
first and then the business fitsaround it.

(01:13:31):
Like I'm the business owner, soit's a bit more flexible, but
like I might go out forbreakfast with mates or go out
for a work lunch or something,but then I'll sit in the, I'll
put the kids to bed and I'll sitin the office two hours.
So I do far more hours in aweek than what my guys do on
site.
But I'm just more flexible withthe way I move my hours around

(01:13:53):
With my team.
I encourage them to do all thisstuff as well and tell me, like,
if you want to drop kids atschool, like let us know, let's
work it into our job schedules.
If your kid's got a schoolevent on or they got a sports
event on, like, let's get it inthe schedule.
Like I want my team doing thepersonal stuff just as much as
I'm doing the personal stuff.
So yeah, our calendar is a fillwith personal stuff and the

(01:14:16):
business stuff fits around it.
But man, I'm the type of personif I don't have shit listed out
, I call it white noise, like Iwill sit on Instagram for an
hour and flick through shit.
I will jump on YouTube or you'vegot to fill up your time or
else you waste it and that's thebiggest problem, Like that's
one of the biggest things ispeople are spending their time

(01:14:38):
just doing shit that they don'tneed to be doing, Stuff that's
not adding value to them, totheir family, to their business.
So I get it You're young,you've got a partner, you want
to spend time together, but justhave a schedule.

Speaker 1 (01:14:50):
That's cool.
Yeah, because I was thinkingand this is what a lot of people
think, I guess, is not needingto cut back on stuff.
I guess there's a time and aplace to do that, but maybe not
just cut back, but let'sreorganize, and then you're
going to have to cut back.

Speaker 2 (01:15:05):
That's cool.
My biggest thing to people now,when they tell me they don't
have time to do things and can'tfit everything in, is to go to
your phone and see how much timeyou spend on social media.
So if anyone sits in front ofme or tries to tell me on the
phone now that I can't fit it in, I can't.
I don't have an hour to spendon LiveLockBuild working on my
business.

Speaker 1 (01:15:25):
You've been three hours on the Facebook.

Speaker 2 (01:15:27):
Go to your phone, go through all your apps.
Tell me right now what's itsaying.
You've spent on social mediatoday yeah, 20 minutes.
All right, so 20 minutes.
Let's say that's what you'redoing every day.
20 minutes is seven days in aweek, builds up, it adds up, so

(01:15:49):
that's just over two hours.
So if you're spending 20minutes a day on social media,
that's two hours and 20 minutes.
Don't tell me you got no time.

Speaker 1 (01:16:01):
Especially when you're spending hours on social
media.
That builds up real quick then.

Speaker 2 (01:16:05):
There is nobody on this planet that has spent in 20
minutes.
Most people spend in two hoursa day, so I don't have any time
where I can't fit shit in is notan excuse because you have the
time, you're just wasting it.

Speaker 1 (01:16:21):
No, that's cool.
No, you definitely.
It's a lot to take in.
You've given me a lot to thinkabout.
That's awesome, it's.
Yeah, I'm keen to take what yousaid and go home and actually
have a sit down and think aboutit and actually take the time to
kind of mull over it.
Finish it.

Speaker 2 (01:16:40):
My advice to you, mate, is finish your
apprenticeship.

Speaker 1 (01:16:43):
Yeah, that's definitely going to happen, yeah
.

Speaker 2 (01:16:46):
Like I said, I didn't finish my apprenticeship so I
was lucky enough, my boss signedme off.
I'd finished all my TAFE stuff.
But look, I learnt more beingthrown in the deep end.
And this is what I say to myteam Like, don't worry about the
young guys stuff and up Likeeverything.
As long as I don't stuff up thesame thing 20 times, everyone

(01:17:09):
is going to make a few mistakes.
But I learnt so much by justjumping in the deep end and my
like I used to tell people, yeah, I can do that, no worries at
all.
I remember, like literally acouple of months after I started
contracting, I had to do thisbig deck and this like octagon
gazebo thing.
I'd never done anything like itin my life.

(01:17:29):
And, mate, I remember I jumpedonline, I bought a roofing book
that showed you like how all theangles and the seat cuts and
the birds mouth and everything Ineeded.
And yes, it cost me a bit ofmoney because I had to buy a few
extra pieces to do it because Icut a few wrong.
But I jumped in the deep end,mate.

(01:17:49):
I rang some chippies, I know.
I talked to people and I builtan octagon gazebo and it was
perfect.
I made a few mistakes, but Ijust kept improving, just going
to give it a shot.

Speaker 1 (01:18:04):
I've done that a few times.
I've said yes to clientswithout actually having any
knowledge of what I'm doing, andthen I jumped back in the car
and the first thing I've done iscalled a builder that I know.
Hey, how do I do this?
Or I go home and spend all thistime studying and researching
how you do it.
Just give things a crack.

Speaker 2 (01:18:20):
You've got to give things a crack, you've got to
believe in yourself.
Like I said, it's at 1%.
If you never try, you're nevergoing to know 100%.
Well, mate, look, thanks verymuch for coming along today.
Hope I haven't been too hard onyou.

Speaker 1 (01:18:31):
No, no, it's good to hear, it's good to hear.

Speaker 2 (01:18:33):
Yeah, stay in touch and I look forward to seeing
where things go, mate.

Speaker 1 (01:18:36):
Awesome Thanks, Dwayne.
Are you ready to build smarter,live better and enjoy life?

Speaker 2 (01:18:47):
Then head on to livelikebuildcom forward, slash,
elevate to get started.
Everything discussed during thelevel up podcast with me,
dwayne Pierce, is based solelyon my own personal experiences
and those experiences of myguests.
The information, opinions andrecommendations presented in
this podcast are for generalinformation only, and any

(01:19:10):
reliance on the informationprovided in this podcast is done
at your own risk.
I recommend that you attainyour own professional advice in
respect to the topics discussedduring this podcast.