Susan Lieu Breaks Family Silence Through Art and Healing: The Weight of Grief

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
So I'm in sixth grade, and Ireally want to do volleyball tryouts.
And my mom says, no, we don'thave the money for it. And I'm trying
to sneak out one morning. I'mtrying to make an American sandwich
instead of my Vietnamesesandwich so I don't get made fun
of. And I bump into her in thekitchen. She knows what I'm gonna
go do. I fess up, and shesays, I can't do it. And then I say,
well, fine, then I hate you.And I saunter off. I go to school,

(00:24):
I go to volleyball tryouts.And when I come back home, my brother
is home from college, and it'sa Thursday. He shouldn't be home
on a Thursday. And he said, gopack your bags. Mom's in a coma.
And what I didn't realize isthat morning she went in for plastic
surgery, a tummy tuck, thenarrowing of her nostrils, and a

(00:46):
chin implant. And two hoursinto the surgery, she lost oxygen
to her brain. The doctorwaited 14 minutes before he made
the 911 call, and it's usuallyafter four minutes. Without oxygen,
you have permanent brain damage.
Today's guest is Susan Lieu.She is a Vietnamese American playwright.

(01:07):
She's a performer, and she isan author of a book that has landed
at the top of so many listsfor 2024. Susan's story is one of
resilience, healing, andreally, the courage to reclaim her
own narrative after quite anunimaginable loss. At 11 years old,
her life really changedforever when her mother passed away

(01:27):
after a botched plasticsurgery. Throughout the conversation,
we really talk about how Susannavigated these complexities of grief
and these culturalexpectations, plus the family dynamics
while growing up as the childof Vietnamese refugees. Through her
groundbreaking one woman show,140lbs, how Beauty killed My Mother,
and her debut memoir, Susanhas turned her personal tragedy into

(01:50):
a powerful tool for connectionand healing. Together, we talk about
how she found her voice,confronted intergenerational trauma,
and inspired others to reallyembrace vulnerability and the power
of storytelling. Whetheryou've experienced loss, struggled
with your own identity, or arejust simply looking for inspiration
to live as authentically aspossible, I think you will enjoy

(02:14):
this conversation. So withoutfurther ado, here is my conversation
with Susan as she shares herstory of finding, finding purpose,
honoring her mother's legacy,and really creating ripples of change
through the power of art andtruth. I'm Matt Gilhooley, and this
is the Life Shift. Candidconversations about the pivotal moments
that have changed livesforever. Hello, my friends. Welcome

(02:46):
to the Life Shift podcast. Iam here with Susan. Hello, Susan.
Greetings.
Greetings. I like that usuallypeople are like, hi, but I like greetings
because that's usually what Isay to people via text when someone's
like, hey, Matt, greetings.
Yeah. Or. Or if, like, you'reabducted by aliens.
Oh, you could do that.
Yeah.
I hope that never happens.Well, it is 2025. Things are a little

(03:08):
crazy, so anything couldhappen. Anything can happen. And
maybe that's more welcomethese days for some of us. Anyway,
thank you for wanting to be apart of the Life Shift podcast. I.
I want to shout out our mutualfriend Michelle Glovac for connecting
us. What a gem. She was on theLife shift podcast about 152 years
ago telling her story. Andthat's how we've been connected since.

(03:29):
I help edit some of herepisodes. So she's a gem. And so
I want to say hi to Michelle.
Hey, Michelle.
And so people are probablytuning in to hear you. They maybe
have never heard of the LifeShift podcast, so maybe I can tell
them a little bit. This showstems from my own personal experience.
When I was 8, my mom waskilled in a motorcycle accident.
And at that time my parentswere divorced. My dad lived about

(03:52):
a thousand miles away fromwhere I lived with my mom full time,
and I was visiting my dad forthe summer and my mom was going on
a motorcycle trip with herboyfriend. I fought her to not go,
but I was 8. So who listens toan 8 year old? And I was probably
just throwing a temper tantrumat the time, but I was visiting my
dad and I got picked up earlyfrom school one day or summer camp

(04:13):
one day and my dad had to sitme down and tell me the hardest words
he's ever had to say out loudand tell me that my mom had died
in a motorcycle accident. Andit was like this line in the sand
moment in which everythingthat I had dreamed for my life, everything
my dad had dreamed, everyonein my family had dreamed for me,
was no longer a possibilitybecause everything had changed so

(04:35):
much. And this was like late80s, early 90s. Nobody was really
talking about a child andgrief and recovery and all these
things that come along with,like being a full fledged human.
So nobody talked about it. Andso I assumed that I had it to be
perfect so that if I wasperfect, my dad wouldn't leave like

(04:57):
my mom left. In my smallbrain, my mom left me. And so the
whole time I was like, doother people have this like, singular
moment that maybe like totallyshifted everything in their life.
And so now I get thisopportunity, I say, a healing opportunity,
to speak to hundreds of peopleabout these pivotal moments. Not
all trauma induced, maybe somepositive in other ways, but I get

(05:19):
this opportunity to learn fromhow we as humans can be resilient
or move through moments orfeel very similar, even though our
experiences are so different.So that being said, I'm just so honored
that you want to share yourstory in this way with me.
Thanks for having me. Andthere's so many parallels to our.
Story and it's, it's, youknow, it's so like I look back, I

(05:44):
don't know. If you look back,we'll get into the details of your
story and see how similar theyare. But I don't know, if you look
back at the time period in the80s, in the 90s, experiencing trauma
that you experienced andseeing now from this perspective
of 2025 and going, oh, man, Iwish someone had just opened that
door or allowed this, that orthe other. And then, I don't know,

(06:07):
I go down this spiral of like,where would I be had those opportunities
been afforded.
To me, which then becomes anightmare. You'd be not talking about
your trauma publicly.
What would I do? Yeah, I wouldhave, would have unpacked it a long
time ago. So I say all that tosay that every conversation that
I have on this show heals somepart of that eight year old in me.

(06:30):
That when I started this showat like 40, I didn't realize I still
needed to be healed, you know,and it's just such a lovely opportunity
to connect with other humansthat I might never interact with
ever in my life. And so I'mjust really grateful for you and
all the other guests to justwant to do this and sit here with
me.
So thank you a hundred.

(06:52):
Before we get into your, yourstory and your pivotal moment, maybe
you can tell us a little bitabout Susan in 2025. Like, how do
you identify?
Yeah, I'm a VietnameseAmerican playwright, performer and
author and mother. I live inSeattle, Washington, and I'm really
trying to get better at my TRX straps.
You know, like, as long as yousecure them.

(07:14):
Yeah, as long as you securethem. I'm a almost 40 woman trying
to figure out what rules. Iwant to write my own life to have
satisfaction and peace. So I'mjust kind of at a turning point where
I'm like, I'm over the hill.Well, let me stop listening to my
like, childhood conditioningand let me listen to me. So that's

(07:38):
where I'm at.
That's a challenge. Are youfinding that challenging or freeing?
It's just a muscle. And it'slike the more I gotta practice in
really small ways and then I'mgetting better and better. And I'm
working with a coach right nowand, and she helps me just, just
even a weekly touch point. Iverbalize my wins and I'm like, those
were wins. Those were wins,you know, and it's, it's, it's a

(08:00):
very interesting time for mebecause last year, 2024, when my
memoir published, it was areally incredible year, accolades
wise. And I was burnt out andstressed and I got really sick. And
actually no accolade wasenough because I could always point
to the next thing that Ididn't have. And so I got myself

(08:21):
really sick last year. And Iam actually very healthy right now
in this moment because I alsodon't find achievement as sexy as
I used to.
That's big. That's reallyhard. I often talk to people about
kind of what I've called thechecklist life of like, I just needed
to do this and then once I dothat, I should do the next thing
because that one is going tobring me success or happiness. But

(08:42):
wait a second, that didn't. Igot to go to the next one and it
just became this like. And Iwas like, where did this checklist
come from? Like, these aren'tthings I want to do. These are the
things that I assumed otherpeople wanted me to do. They were
just, you know, that checklistthat we were all following. So I
really relate with that. And Iwould say in my 40s too, I've, I've
come to the point in which Idon't care as much. That sounds really

(09:08):
bad to say, but I don't careas much about how other people feel
about how I feel. You know,Whereas before I felt like I had
to project that I was alwayshappy or I was always winning or
whatever it may be. So Iwelcome you to this, this journey
in your life and this part ofyour journey because as you, as you

(09:29):
say, you're already seeingthese little wins, which is probably
a really great feeling for you.
Yeah.
So let's get into your storythat will probably find some parallels.
Maybe you can paint thepicture of your life leading up to
where you want to center thisconversation around that life shift
moment.
Yeah. My parents wereVietnamese refugees, came over to
the Bay area in the 80s, andI'm about 9, 10, 11 years old and

(09:55):
living in a four bedroom housewith 13 relatives. And so at one
point I'm like, there's liketwo twin size beds and it's my aunt,
it's me and my sister. So mymom had, my mom and dad had come
over as boat people. And thenafter we got off welfare, started
sponsoring everyone over andeveryone who came over worked in

(10:15):
our nail salons and we had twoof them and my mother was the North
Star and she called all theshots and we all obeyed. There was
karaoke on Sundays and it wasVietnam, like Vietnamese language
all the time. My grandma wouldalways like say all these crazy things
to me and I was always doingthe wrong thing and my Vietnamese
wasn't Vietnamese enough. Andat school I wasn't American enough.

(10:37):
And I was like, okay, there'sno daycare, there's no summer camp,
it's work in the nail salon.So as early as six years old, I have
been working in my parentsnail salon with my sister. And that
all comes to a head at my lifeshift moment.
I mean this, this upbringingis so unique to someone like me who

(10:57):
comes from a very smallfamily. Looking back on that or remembering
in those moments, was that anenjoyable period? Cause I know you
mentioned some like,challenges in school versus home,
but did you like havingeveryone around?
I mean, yeah, the I, I am aextreme extrovert. And so for me
it's like it, it felt so good.And to this day, if I'm not constantly

(11:19):
in community or going tocommunity events, there's a part
of me that feels empty. And I,I, I really want to start Super Soul
Sundays. S O U P E R where Imake a big pot of soup every Sunday
or once a month and havepeople over because there's so much
beauty in that communion andjust rubbing up against people and
supporting each other. And soI do miss that in part of my childhood

(11:40):
where there was always someoneto take care of me or yell at me,
to like get me in line tofigure out how to, you know, clean
the rice better or wash thedishes better or do whatever. I always
felt like I had my tribearound me.
Yeah. And for me it sounds soforeign. It was just me. I was an
only child, my parents weredivorced. And people even to this

(12:01):
day are like, you want to playa game? I'm like, I don't like games.
Like, I didn't grow up withpeople to play games with. And so
it was, it's like fascinatingto me. Whereas I'm like, I love my
alone time. Like, I reallylike, I can, I love the people time,
but I Also need that rechargetime of, like, this is where I can
find communion with myself tofigure out my thoughts and stuff.

(12:23):
So that's. I mean, I love thatyou loved it, though, because I.
I could also see the otherside, where someone would be like,
just let me out of here.
I mean, I gotta say, though,growing up Vietnamese is like elders.
And I was the youngest offour. And then there's my aunts,
my grandparents, and myparents. Like, elders are always
right, you know? So there'salso this. Maybe it wasn't like a
idyllic childhood. Like, therewas always, like, I couldn't express

(12:46):
myself or if I was veryexpressive. That was. Vietnamese
girls don't do that. And therewas a lot of expectations to be perfect.
And yes, you know, you had toget an A. Otherwise you get split,
spanked, or yelled at orbanished or you lose privileges immediately.
So there was also all of that, too.
And is it also doublychallenging in, like, going to school

(13:08):
and seeing other people havedifferent type of family environments?
Is that, like, is there achallenge in that? Or. Oh, this is
ignorance right now.
Playing I grew. I grew up inSanta Rosa, so my peers were mostly
white. I. I remember I wouldbe like, oh, my God, you have fruit
snacks. Oh, my God, you haveAmerican food. Oh, my God, there's
sleepovers. What is all. What,you get your own birthday party.

(13:30):
You don't have to ask for it.Like, there was all these other things
that I found fascinating aboutAmerican culture that I wanted. And
then my. My parents would belike, we don't have money for that,
or, what. What are you goingto do when you sleep over at someone's
house? You know? And it wasjust like, oh, so I think that there
was this drive to assimilateas new refugees into this country

(13:54):
and don't get in trouble anddon't rock the boat. But then there
was also this push and pull oflike, oh, don't get too Americanized
now. What do you think you'redoing? So again, it's like this,
like, insider, outsiderposition, where in a way, I always
felt like I was always anoutsider wherever I was. And that
was the difficult thing,because you're still a kid, you still

(14:15):
want to belong.
Yeah, I don't think youunderstand either. You don't understand
why there are these or not youin particular. But as a child, you
don't really understand thatthere are multiple cultures. And,
like, I mean, maybe I'mspeaking for myself because growing
up in Massachusetts, it waslike, I was only around White people
that look like me, you know?And when I moved to Georgia and when

(14:37):
I moved to Florida, there werediverse communities, and it was like,
oh, there are other people outhere that aren't just me. So I can
imagine as a young child that.That you have this. This confusion
as. Or maybe you don't do.Like, is it weird to know that other
people don't live like you?
I mean, I didn't think aboutthat. It was more like, gosh, I'd

(14:59):
like to have their full houseparents, you know, where the mom
was around and she wouldlisten to your feelings and she would
do what you wanted, you know?Like, my parents were too busy. They
were working all the time.Like, I didn't get any of that. It
was just like, put your headdown and work and do your homework
and if not, work at the shop.So I. I think part of it is, like,

(15:22):
maybe I didn't really realizewhat I was missing because I just.
I was. I had to fall in line.
And you said your mom was aNorth Star.
Oh, yeah.
And. And North Star. Was thisalso, like a. An emotional guiding
light or was this just like,she was. She was the place that kind
of set the. The standards.
I would not call her anemotional guiding light. She got

(15:44):
no time for that, right? She'sactually managing the 12 other people
in the house. She was like,okay, we're going to open this next
salon. We're going to move tothis city, okay? And this, everyone,
you, you, you, you sit here.You do this. You're training on this
new thing. And then. And thenI'm gonna reposition you here. Like,
it was like we were a footballteam, except we were our family and

(16:06):
we were doing nails, you know,and she was all. She always had a
cool about her. I remembereven she used to sell these counterfeit
dooney and work bags in ournail salon. I remember I wrote this
in the memoir, but there's astory where, like, the cops came,
and they were like, you can'tdo this. And she's like, huh? And,
like, she was super chillabout it. And, like, my aunts thought

(16:26):
they were gonna get their nailsalon licenses taken away. They thought
my mom was going to jail, andshe just was super cool about it,
you know, like, and there was.There was always, like, no problem,
you know? And then somehow wewould have these, like, fat parties
on the holidays when we couldactually close the salon, and there
would be, like, 60 people atour house, all our different relatives

(16:48):
and her friends and all that.And it was just like, she was this.
A magnet for people and foodand. And communion. Even though they
were having a. Later I foundout a very tough time. Interesting
to co. Sign their house. They.After we. We didn't have money coming
here to America. And withineight years, my parents bought a
house.

(17:08):
Wow.
We were on welfare and then webought a house in eight years. Later
I found out one of the housesthey bought. 14% interest. You know
what I mean? And then still.They were still going. They're still
going for it, you know. And soI look back, I'm like, wow, they
had it. Now I have one kid.That's it. That's all I have. And
I feel like it's hard. And I'msitting there thinking about everything

(17:30):
that my mom did and overcamewas crazy.
Yeah. And with all thosepeople to fall in line to make sure
that everyone can succeed in away and then.
Teach them English, learn howto drive a car, get your license,
like, it was just like, boom,boom, boom. It was all happening
concurrently. So no, she hadno emotional space for me.

(17:50):
Right. Or I mean, it justsounds like she was. She was the
coach and people justlistened. And you kind of fall in
line because. And then I thinkpeople naturally kind of fall in
line. When you see someonethat looks quote, unquote, successful
in something, you kind oflike, well, then I need to. Need
to fall in line to. Toachieve, to do the right things.
She was the 10th of her 12siblings, and she was the only one

(18:11):
who attempted to escapeVietnam by boat. And it was on her
sixth attempt that her and mydad and my two brothers made it.
So once she came to America,she would send remittances back.
Like, that's how others wereable to invest and actually get out
of poverty. So my mom is this,like, legendary figure in our entire
lineage of a family becausenow so many more aunts and uncles

(18:35):
have come over and cousins.But it was because she took that
risk.
Yeah. And I know we're talkinga lot about your mom because your
mom plays this. This big rolein this life shift moment in your
life.
Yeah.
So, you know, however you wantto paint what that looked like for
you, I think be a good time.
Yeah. So I'm in sixth grade,and I really want to do volleyball

(18:55):
tryouts. And my mom says, no,we don't have the money for it. And
I'm trying to sneak out onemorning. I'm trying to make an American
sandwich instead of myVietnamese sandwich so I don't get
made fun of. And I bump intoher in the Kitchen. She knows what
I'm going to go do. I fess up.And she says, I can't do it. And
then I say, well, fine, then Ihate you. And I saunter off. I go

(19:16):
to school, I go to volleyballtryouts. And when I come back home,
my brother is home fromcollege and it's a Thursday. He shouldn't
be home on a Thursday. And hesaid, go pack your bags. Mom's in
a coma. And what I didn'trealize is that morning she went
in for plastic surgery. Atummy tuck, the narrowing of her

(19:37):
nostrils, and a chin implant.Two hours into the surgery, she lost
oxygen to her brain. Thedoctor waited 14 minutes before he
made the 911 call. And it'susually after four minutes. Without
oxygen, you have permanentbrain damage. So my brother and my
sister and I pack our bags, wedrive an hour to San Francisco, and

(20:03):
my mom is just in a coma. Sothis, this. This huge. She's like,
oz, right? And like now she'sjust. Her face is sunken in, her
hands are cold, there'sliquids coming out of her body. And
I'm like, what happened?Because up until this point in the
nail salon, I watch soapoperas. And that's what. I know what
a coma is. And I know in thesoap opera you always wake up, you

(20:26):
have a one in a million chanceof survival, and you always wake
up. And I was like, okay,well, I guess she's just. I wasn't
that nervous driving down, butthen when I saw her, I was like,
oh, this does not look likeshe's gonna wake up. And five days
later, she flatlines.
And you were 12?
I was 11 at the time.
11.
And my family to this day,it's been about three decades now,

(20:50):
we have never spoken about itever again. About her, about how
she died? No. Never.
Like anyone in your family?
No. And I was the one whowould ask questions and they were
like, you're stuck in thepast. Move on. What is there to talk
about? There are no other memories.
That's. I mean, that's a lotto take on as a child, like. Because

(21:15):
also, I would imagine you aregetting questions from the people
around you that are not familytoo. Or were you getting. Because
I got, as an 8 year old with adead mom, I got the jokes from the
jerks in school. I got thecompassionate teachers, everyone.
Like all this bombardment ofthings I didn't know how to answer

(21:36):
or like, I didn't even knowhow to address that, but I could
go home and say it to my dad.But in your case, did you experience
any of that?
I remember I go back to schooland I'm just like, oh, my God, you
know, what am I supposed todo? Because really, my dad was like,
take the week off. And I waslike, okay. And all I did was read

(21:57):
library books. Like, there wasnothing. I. I mean, no one talked
to me. There was no griefcounseling. There was. There was
nothing. Everyone just wentback to the nail salon to work, and
I was just at home by myself.And then I come back to school. I'm
on the playground waiting forthe bell to ring, and Jessica, the
bully goes, what's wrong? Yourmom die or something? And I was like,

(22:20):
oh, my God, does everyoneknow? Like, because I didn't know
what my teacher said. I don't.I don't know what anyone knew. And
then that's when I heard thebell ring and I dashed to the yard
duty lady. I don't know her.All I remember is I just put my head
into her boobs and I, like,get a big whiff of, like, really
intense 90s perfume.
Sorry.

(22:40):
And I'm. But that is the firsttime that I allowed myself to cry
after my mom died. Becausethere was no one to cry with. Like,
there was. It was like, justmove forward like.
A week after or so.
Yeah. Yeah. Like, I mean, Ididn't. I didn't cry at her funeral.
I didn't because I was like,what? What is that going to change?

(23:02):
Because that's how you wereconditioned, or you were assuming
you were supposed to feel that way.
I mean, my aunts were crying,but I was just sitting there. I was
like, there's nothing I can donow. And I remember at the funeral,
all of the relatives wouldjust, like, they would like, pat
me on the head, pat me on theshoulder two times and be like, do
well in school. And I didn'tactually really understand what happened.

(23:24):
All I knew was the termstomach surgery. I didn't know she
got plastic surgery. I didn'tknow it was a botched tummy tuck
and she tried to get all theseother things. I didn't know that
the doctor was on probation,had 19 lawsuits against him, didn't
have medical malpracticeinsurance, actively preyed on Vietnamese
refugees. He's a white guy.Did not know any of that. All I knew

(23:46):
is there was a sub stomachsurgery and something with anesthesia.
That's all I knew until Istarted investigating as an adult.
Yeah. I'm curious how. BecauseI know you said it here that you.
The maybe one of the lastthings you said to her were those
words. Did that play into yourpsyche at all?

(24:06):
Huge guilt.
Huge guilt. Because I mean,let's say you didn't mean it. Like
we don't mean those thingswhen we're a kid.
I mean, in the moment Iprobably meant like, why can't I
have these things? You know,you're not even around and you never
let me hang out with myfriends and I always have to work
at the nail salon. You know,I'm an 11 year old tween. Right.

(24:27):
But it was a guilt that Icould never share with my siblings
or my family. So where did itgo? You know, it was like stagnant
and stuck in my body because Iwasn't. We weren't allowed to bring
up the past. We just. It wasso crazy, Matt. It was like we just
pretended she never existedafter that.
Yeah, I can't relate to that,but yet I can. Like, I feel like

(24:52):
my experience was not don'ttalk about was. I overheard and assumed
the adults around me saying,we just need to make sure he's happy.
And that's how I like assumedthat they couldn't see me do those
other things. So I don't knowif it's true, if I could have talked

(25:13):
to them about it, but I knew Icouldn't in my mind because they
needed to make sure I wasgonna be okay. So like there's like
this part where I internalizedit a lot, but for different reasons.
Like you didn't even have anoutlet. Did you find any outlets
that weren't your family? Likebeyond the yard lady.
Yard duty lady? Yeah, that'swhere I just started achieving and

(25:38):
getting a lot of approval. Soin middle and high school, I did
middle school and high school.I did community service and student
government and eventuallygraduated as the president of my
high school was like all whitehigh school. I was president because
I got a lot of approval andrecognition, mentorship, compassion
from the adult mentors. Andalso I was always rewarded. I always

(26:01):
knew where I stood. I alwaysknew it felt very merit based. Right.
Whereas at home there wasemotional landmines everywhere and
I didn't know where they were.
Were each of the achievementssatisfying or was it more of like,
okay, what's next? As that. Asthat kid? Because it didn't last
long enough for you to enjoy.

(26:21):
I mean, I mean, I, I think I'mstill grappling with how do you enjoy
things?
Do you think that is more yourupbringing or more this experience
of not being able to emote anddo those things.
It's combo, you know, I'm. I'mthe child of refugees. There's huge
scarcity complex. We werealways very concerned about food
and money and, you know, like,it's always fight or flight. Right.

(26:46):
So there's that. And then I'mtrying to fill this, this, like,
unfillable hole in my heart,and the only thing that's going to
give it to me is deepemotional connection with my family.
That's the only thing I can'thave. So, of course, everything else
I'm grasping for, includingbeing the first student in my high

(27:09):
school to ever get intoHarvard, you know, like, I'm, I'm.
I'm just like, going for it,going. And then it's never enough.
I get to Harvard and then it'slike, I still want the recognition
of my family. I'm now getting,gaining the freshman 15. And there's
this line that hangs over meall the time where they're like,
if you gain too much weight,no one's going to love you and you're

(27:30):
going to die alone. And theysaid that to me when I was 12 and
I was always like the slightlypudgier one. My sister had this like
double zero body, you know,Like, I was like, how wiser. Double
zero. Like, why don't you juststart at one?
It's not a number.
Yeah. And so I eventuallyjoined a cult, really, in college.

(27:51):
Korean yoga cult. And then Ieventually changed my thesis and
I start writing about them andI sink a lot of money in there because
I think I'm going to bringworld peace by becoming a yoga instructor.
Was it the community aspect of it?
Oh, yeah. Community aspect. Ihad a maternal figure there who was

(28:12):
my surrogate mom. And also therules were clear on how to be worthwhile.
Right. This is how you haveworth. If you buy this next package,
if you clean up the yogacenter, if you, you know, it was
really clear. Whereas I thinkin my family, I just. It didn't matter
how earnest I was, I wasalways doing it wrong.

(28:34):
Even when you were achievingall those things, like in school
and Harvard and.
No, it just didn't matter. Noone, no one really. It. It always
got twisted with one sibling.He'd always turn it nasty. Oh, you
just want attention orwhatever, you know, and stop showing
off. Yeah. And then my dadwould be like, why don't you get
in Stanford? And then I'd belike, okay, I, like, tried really

(28:59):
hard.
Right? Like, what else can Iactually do to win this at Some point,
there's nothing, right?
Yeah, no, that's, that's thework I've been doing around radical
acceptance that I'm not gonnaget my elder's approval. But also,
it just shows the generationaldivide. Like, my dad didn't know
what Harvard was, you know,I'm sure he asked. After I called
him at the shop that I got in,he just probably just like muttered

(29:23):
it to his customers, you know,and then they'd be like, oh, Tom,
like, that's actually a bigdeal. You know, like he, he, he grew
up in communist Vietnam anddidn't finish ninth grade and then
comes to America. So what canI expect him to know? Like, now as
a 39 year old, I'm like, it'svery clear to me. Like, we were just
oceans apart. And he didn'tunderstand how America worked. You

(29:47):
know, like, I would be like,I'm gonna go do community service
now or I'm gonna do stuff forstudent government. And he would
be, he thought it was. I wassuch a rebel. And he was just like,
don't waste your time on that.Like, why don't you listen to me?
You know? And I was just like,I think I need to do this to get
into college. And so that'sjust like a reflection of the fact

(30:09):
that he was a refugee, Right.And he didn't know how America worked.
Were your siblings treatedsimilarly or did they have a similar
experience? As far as the lossgoes, as far as, like navigating
the emotional mines or. Whatdid you say? Minefield?
Yeah, landmines.
Yeah, landmines.

(30:29):
Everyone fell in line and justpretended she didn't exist.
Are you youngest?
Where. Yeah, I'm the youngest.So that's where it was mind boggling
because I was like, did anyonenot. She was alive, right? Like,
it, it was, it was kind ofcrazy because after a while I, I
really thought I was like,wow, like, I am stuck in the past,
you know, Even though I waslike, no, actually, all of this is

(30:52):
crazy. Each of them go on todo their own thing. And, you know,
I reach out to my siblings, Ihang out with them. As long as we're
not talking about our mom.
It's got to be so curious foryou to wonder if in their secret
lives, if they had people totalk about. Like, did they pretend
around you that they weren'tgoing to talk about it and they talked
about it with someone else?Because I feel like that's a lot

(31:13):
to bottle up. I. You know, it is.
We've never talked about it.
Wow. Yeah. Even after your.
Even after my one woman showwhere I impersonate them in front
of them.
They came and they just said nothing.
Two siblings came. One siblinghas never come in engaged. And my
dad doesn't engage.

(31:35):
Yeah. First of all, and I, Iknow you don't need this, but I'm
sorry that you had toexperience life in this way. Yet
I understand how and whyyou've achieved so much because of
that. So I just want to putthat out there that I really feel
for you because this is sochallenging as a, as a 40. I almost

(31:56):
said 90. As a 40 year oldperson thinking back about these
young versions of us and thethings that we wish we could have
known.
Yeah. I mean, I think that'swhy the memoir was so important to
me is like I was writing itfor 11 year old me to be like, let
me, let me normalize, let mejust connect with you. That what

(32:18):
happened was not okay and thatyou can still, you can still heal,
you know, was part of your.
Healing journey that find ortrying to find answers, to piece
things together, to piece thepuzzle together. Like all the things
you said about that doctor andwhat your mom was doing was part
of you're healing that,seeking that.

(32:40):
Yeah. So remember, we're notallowed to talk about our mom. Right.
So I go through the cult, Iget out of the cult.
I forgot about the cult already.
Yeah. I moved back to Vietnam.I moved to Vietnam and I'm trying
to like figure myself out,should I be a human rights lawyer?
International development. Andmy sister comes back with me and
here I'm working with, I thinkusaid and I'm working with cacao

(33:05):
farmers. And, and this is fullcircle because we have a chocolate
company that we started inhigh school together. And she's like,
can you help me with my dream?Help me with my dream? I'm like,
okay, you know, and. And Imove back to the Bay Area, I start
helping her build thechocolate company. And then eventually
I'm like, I gotta go follow mydreams, go to business school, meet

(33:25):
my husband, find myself inSeattle, work in some jobs where
I'm not a culture fit, but I'mjust doing it to please my dad and
pay off some loans. And thenthere's this part of me where I'm
like getting a lot of pressureto have kids. And I was like, how
can I become a mom if I neverknew my mom? Like, if something went

(33:48):
wrong, like, who would I call?Like my sister has had now one kid
at this point, but we couldnever really talk about motherhood,
because it was like anextension of our mother. And I was
like, God, I think this soundsterrifying. And then the other part
of me, I was like, I also feellike I can't be a mom because I feel
like I'm a coward in life.Like, I was disappointed with the
adult I became. Yeah. Becauseyears prior, I had started stand

(34:12):
up comedy, and actually I was.I was crushing it. And I was. I headlined
at the Purple Onion. I did a45 minute set, and then eventually
I get heckled by this randomguy at a charity fundraiser. And
I was just like, oh, my God,who am I kidding? What a dumb idea.
And I walk away from themicrophone for three years. And then
so I was like, so wait, I wantto be a mom and tell my kid, be what

(34:35):
you want in life. But I did.I. I'm not actually doing that. I
know I feel amazing on stage,but now I don't do it anymore. So
what's that about? Right? Soit kind of all came to a head where
I was like, okay, if I'm gonnabecome a mom, I just need to get
the Wiggles out with thisperformance stuff. Like, let me just
try some stuff. And then I'm.And then I'm going to, like, have

(34:56):
a baby. And. And so I go tothis solo performance class, and
they're like, tell a fiveminute story. And I was like, okay.
I was like, I want to avengemy mother's death. So I went to look
for a killer. And so I startedtalking about how I tracked down
the plastic surgeon, and thenI found out he was dead. And then
I like. And then I wanted toknow answers because my family wouldn't

(35:17):
talk. Anyways, five minuteslater, they're like, oh, my God,
have you told that storybefore? And I was like, oh, you think
I just, like, air my dirtylaundry up for everyone to. To smell?
I don't think so, buddy. I'mnot allowed to talk about that. But
that was the next Life Shiftmoment, because it was like there
was this calling that I had,and there was so much unknown. Right?

(35:39):
And. And. And I wanted thetruth of my. My mother so I could
become a mother. And then itturned from that point months, like
two months later, I did myfirst solo show. And I. I played
a number of characters in 25minutes. And then I was like, okay,
great, I'm gonna take my IUDout now. Like, I did it. I made some

(36:00):
programs. I put it on theseat, you know, like, yeah. And then
who knew that that would justOpen up the floodgates to this guy
after the show was like, man,that was really raw. But like, I
don't, I don't know who yourmom was. Like, the only scene you
have of your mom is you,little Susan, and trying to like,
ask for mom to come back fromthe coma. Like, who was your mom?

(36:24):
What was she like? And I waslike, I wish I knew. So that sends
me on this wild goose chase tothen track down the plastic surgeon's
kids, read the depositions,thousands of pages of depositions,
go back to Vietnam, try to getmore stories. And every time I learn
something new, I put it onstage in a one woman show. And the
fifth one is called 140 poundshow beauty killed my mother, where

(36:45):
I play 15 characters in 65minutes. And it was a two week, two
week run. And I remember mytwo siblings, Wendy and Kang Anthony,
they come up, they're watchingthe show. At the end of the show,
my sister leans over to mybrother and says, is that true? Did
you really pull the plug onMa? And he's like, yeah. So there's

(37:10):
live discovery happening,right? That they have slowly started
to un, unravel small stringsof stories to me. And so I folded
it in. And then they're onstage, we're doing a Q and A live,
talking about my mom for thefirst time in front of 140 people.
But they can't talk about her.They can talk about me talking about

(37:30):
her. Do you get what I'msaying? Like, it's still not the
emotionally vulnerableconversation I want, but they're
starting to open up andthey're starting. There's now a turn
happening. And it was afterthat show that I did take out my
IUD and I got pregnantimmediately. And it was only then
when I realized I was pregnantthat I was like, all right, that's

(37:51):
it. I'm taking the show on a10 city national tour that I'm going
to produce.
That's amazing.
So because I was like, oh, Ican only go during my second trimester,
right? Like, that's the idealtime. So for the procrastinator in
me, I'm like, cool. Window.Window constraints.
Yeah.
And then I did it. And sittingin the, in the, like, Fringe Theater

(38:12):
in New York City in St. Mark'swas my future literary agent.
So all of it really comes fromyou sharing for the first time. Like,
you opened the floodgates ofthat, saw the power of story for
yourself and other people sawyou for you without judgment. Like,

(38:33):
just like that. Like, I needto know more, I need to know more
about you. Open thosefloodgates and share with. And then
you just like all this stuffkind of like snowballs into a healing
journey. Is. Was it a healingjourney for you?
Completely. Because I now, Ineeded to know how am I like my mother?
And all of this research andall the performance, now I see it,

(38:55):
you know, I am a. I am animage of my mother.
You are.
And I also found out in thedepositions, my body is like my mother.
She was five one, I was fivetwo. She was 140 pounds, but lied
in her intake form. She was110. Girlfriend was 140. I'm 140
pounds, you know, on a day.I'm not bloated. Right. So it's like.

(39:17):
And then also, like, you got to.
Learn her more as an adult.
And now that I have a kid, I'mlike, I used to think before I had
a kid, I was like, oh, my God,I wouldn't be friends with my mom.
Like, she was so vain. Like,she, she died from something preventable.
And then now that I. My kid'sfive, I squeeze my belly fat, you

(39:38):
know, Like, I. I don't. Idon't feel sexy. I don't feel desirable
in this society. Society.Right. Like, I don't feel visible.
And now I'm like, starting toreally empathize with where my mom
was of having to hold so much.She had no self care time. I got
a facial yesterday. You know,like, I get. I get to have so much

(39:59):
more than she did because Istand on the sacrifices of my mother
and father. Right. And alsoI've learned some profound lessons
about how we talk about bodiesand worth and money and achievement.
And I try to practice thatwith my son because, man, last year

(40:20):
with my book tour, things aregreat. Things were great. My book,
best of 2024 for NPR. L.Smithsonian. Like, I was on national
television. My. My book tourended at the Smithsonian. Yeah. For
a debut author, you know, I'mnot a celebrity. Yeah. Like, I'm
like, good job, Susan.

(40:42):
And you probably meant it. Didyou. No.
There was, like, to feelproud, to give myself that approval.
Right. Of what the child wantsfrom the parent. Right. It's. It's
still this unlearning andactive loving for me. And I think
that's part of the reason whyI was so sick last year. Right. And

(41:06):
so it's been a very healingjourney. Yes. In terms of. I have
an altar of my mother righthere. I see her. My. I talked to
my son about her. He talksabout her and he's like, God, I gotta
make her a card. I'm like,okay. You know, I miss her. I'm like,
great. Okay. So I actively tryto name the shame when people feel

(41:29):
it. I allow feelings to feelin our family. You know, we will
go to solution mode, But Ialso allow feelings to exist because
mine were repressed for decades.
Right. You weren't allowed tobe a full human. No, yeah. No, I
agree.
Disrupted the collective harmony.
Right. Yeah. You don't want tomake anyone else uncomfortable or

(41:52):
they don't want you to makethem uncomfortable.
Well, and also, you're justdisobeying. You have to respect your
elders. It's not. You knowwhat I mean? It's not about comfort.
It's like, you broke the rule,the sacred rule, which is obey your
elders.
Yeah. Do you feel like youhave a better relationship with your
mom now that you have allthese pieces and you were able to
dive down into this and feelthat connection?

(42:14):
Yeah, of course. I mean, in mybook, I talk about psychics and spirit
channeling and how my momcomes to me. So there are many instances
where she is communicatingdirectly to me and telling me to
keep going, because for anumber of times, I tried to stop
along the way because I wasjust disrupting the peace in the

(42:36):
family, for sure. And theywere like, what are you doing?
Do they accept this version ofyou now? Do they accept how you are
so vocal about it, or is it still.
Like my sister and my brotherand my aunts do, and then one brother
and my dad does not. Like, wejust pretend I don't do it.

(42:57):
Okay.
And my dad's like, why don'tyou become a loan officer?
That's fun. You should totallydo that.
I mean, I think I could stillat least be a real estate agent.
You know? Like, I'm like, Icould earn a commission.
Yeah. No, I get. Yeah.
But we just pretend I don't do it.
So you maintain a relationshipwith them, but you just know the
boundaries and how you. Howyou can navigate it without affecting

(43:21):
you too much.
Yeah. I think the corequestion is, like, how do I love
my family and love myself?Because for a long time, it was,
I'm going to love my family bybeing obedient, but not honor my
needs. Right. And now I'mlike, okay, I think I have enough
emotional intelligence to nowrecognize indirect boundaries. Because

(43:41):
they were showing meboundaries. They just weren't being
explicit about it. Right. Soif someone gets really mad at me
or wants to hang up the phoneor whatever or says, please don't
ever talk to me about thisever again. That's called a boundary,
Susan. Cool. You know, andlike, because my currency is deep
emotional intimacy. And so Iwas like, but maybe I just, if I
just try a different way,maybe it'll be better. But I, I think

(44:04):
now in my middle age, I'mlike, oh, wow, like everyone has
demons. How you're behavingright now is the best that you can
do right now. And it might notall be about me. You know, like you,
you're projecting your ownperception and, and that might not
be about me. And so if I don'twant to be in the crossfire or this

(44:26):
is not making me feel good,cool. I'm going to set my boundaries
around that too. But like Isaid, I grew up in a 13 person house.
There were no boundaries then.Right. So I didn't know what boundaries
were in a physical sense and Ididn't think I needed to have them
in an emotional sense. But nowI understand boundaries. Okay, well,
how can I still take care ofmy needs? Right? Because I recognize

(44:49):
at one point where in theworld where I do obey, I call that
the default world. What was myresult and how did that make me feel?
And if I'm not happy withthat, what can I change and what
can I be responsible for? Forme that doesn't infringe upon them.
Right. I think for a long timeI was like, you are withholding information

(45:10):
from me because you don't likeme, you know, or I, I've offended
you on such a deep level,like, and I made it about me. And
it was when I stopped pointingthe finger at them and said, cool,
so what can I do for my ownhealing journey? What do I need?
Well, you know what, what Ineed is to know the truth and I need
to process it by doing a onewoman show and writing memoir. I

(45:32):
never needed to do any ofthis. If you, we could have just
had a conversation maybe. Imean, sure, there's a part of me
that's always been veryexuberant and like love the stage.
But finally I said, you know,I'm just not going to obey the old
rules anymore and I'm going todo what I need to do for my own fulfillment.
Yeah, you're living your lifefully as, with your rules, with the

(45:53):
things that, that bring youjoy and bring you whatever emotion
that you need at thatparticular time. Took me about 30,
I was probably like early 30s,which my. I kind of look at my end
of my grief journey, if youwill, with my mom, like for my teens
and my twenties, I either useit as a crutch, so I used it like,

(46:16):
oh, if I did something bad orwrong, it was because my mom died.
But if I won something or didsomething really well, it was because
my mom died, you know, likeit. So it was like these double crutches.
Nothing of it was my owndoing. It was always this. She was
dead. So that's why thishappened. Whether that was good,
bad or indifferent. And Iwould not take chances and I would

(46:38):
just pick the easiest thing tobe successful at because I knew,
okay, well, if I can get an Aor I can get what, you know, if I
can get an award in thatparticular thing, I'll definitely
do that. And so in my 30s, I'mgoing to this like my fifth therapist
because it's a journey. Yougotta find the right one, you gotta
right find the right fit. Andshe was like, you realize that every
decision that you've madesince you were 8 years old, you did

(47:00):
it with that scared 8 year oldbrain. And I was like, oh my God.
And was like the cloudsparted. I was like, holy crap. That
was like grieving all thethings that I didn't live for myself
and make the decisions that Iwanted to do. And so, you know, it
took a couple years after thatto really kind of what you're describing
and just be like fullyunderstanding of what I need and

(47:21):
how I need it and that I'm incharge of that and not if my dad
is happy with that decision orso. And so is happy, you know, and
it's. It's been such adifferent journey and I. The way
you describe your story andthe way that like I almost see this,
this opening of the floodgatesof sharing your story for the first
time is like such a change inyou. Would you agree that that really,

(47:43):
like there's really a beforeSusan and an after Susan from that?
Yeah, I mean, I pivoted intothe arts full time after that.
Did you feel like a differentperson after sharing that story?
And it can be. No.
The show, I am so emotionallyvulnerable in public. And yet it

(48:07):
didn't feel uncomfortable. Youknow, I felt like I finally was unapologetically
me. And I also, I feel like Istepped into my healer path because
then it's like I called ittherapeutic theater. Right. Like
I keep you there with thehumor, but then we go really deep
and really vulnerable andshame, we talk about shame. Like

(48:31):
we, we just go there and thenI Hope I'm a mirror for you. Right.
Like it's going to resonatefor you. Why is it resonating? Oh,
interesting. You know.
Right. It's permission, Ithink it's. Seeing someone be vulnerable
is permission, in my opinionto also investigate if I'm feeling
that way or investigate that.Oh, I'm allowed to be sad about that

(48:55):
because someone else is. SoI'm sure there were like hundreds
of people that saw thousandsof people that saw you and were like,
oh, my story is totallydifferent than hers, but that emotion
is very familiar and maybe Ican now share my story with someone
else. So I can't imagine theripple effect that your book and

(49:19):
your show and all the thingsthat you've done has had just from
that 11 year old kid whowasn't allowed to say all those things
out loud.
Not allowed. Yeah. In one yearI performed my show 60 times to 7,000
people.
Yeah. So, I mean, at leasthalf of those people, you know, I'm

(49:40):
not, I don't want to discountit. Maybe it was 100%, but you know,
like, people are so afraid ofemotion and I. Yeah. You know, and
we shouldn't be. It's such afulfilling part of our lives. Like,
I love to cry.
People are crying. So peopleare crying for me when they come
up to you after the show andthey'll be like, I'm so sorry, I
don't know why I'm crying. AndI was like, one, don't apologize.

(50:02):
And two, we, we both know whyyou're crying.
Right.
Because I touched this cord ofthis place that you've hidden away.
And now it gets, it's gettinga little oxygen and it wants some
attention. And the more youcan nurture it, something can evolve,
right. The stagnant energy.Energy can start moving and that's
exciting. Right? So cry.

(50:23):
Do you celebrate that part ofwhat you give to the world?
No, like, I mean, that's myhonest self. Right, like where. Because
okay, Maybe this is 2024season, but like, it's more like
I'm like on to the next thing,baby. Or like, okay, cool, niche
audience, like, keep sharingyour story to more people, you know,

(50:46):
Come on, baby, let's do this.Like, I think there's this refugee
hustle in me where I'm like,more, more, more, you know, growth.
I get it.
And then, but in the moment,in the moment where I'm locking eyes
with people and they'retelling me stories they've never
shared with anybody else,where we're just, they're like I

(51:07):
have no words, and I'm like,it's cool to have no words. And then
we just, like, hug. I do. I,Like, I've hugged a lot of people,
and I'm just like, yeah, I'm.I'm living the dream right now. Like,
I'm walking on my path, and I.I think, like, maybe I don't actively
celebrate. And that's thismuscle I'd like to flex more. Right.
Is to enjoy all of this. ButI. I am feeling pretty good because

(51:30):
my coaches are like. She'slike, maybe when you drive around,
just ask yourself, like, howcould it get better than this? And
I'm like, okay. And so I tryto say this line to myself and it.
And I'm like, holy cow. Iactually do what I want in life.
No, it's.
For a long time, I did not.
Right? You did what everyoneelse wanted you to do.

(51:50):
Oh, yeah.
Or you thought everyone wantedyou to do.
Showing up was really about meand my dad.
I get it.
And showing up to work, it wasjust like, I'm so expressive that
it was, like, really obviousthat I was. When I'd be frustrated,
right? I was like, I don'tlike dealing with bureaucracy and
politics and power. Like, I'mlike, you guys are spending money,
and you don't actually haveany answers, so can we try a different

(52:12):
solution? It was like, oh, myGod, you're not allowed to say these
things. And I'm like, why? Iknow the difference of being really
miserable at work, right?Where it's like, I'm not using my
talents. I don't feel like I'mliving or all of this, like, leadership
development workshops and allthis stuff. Like, I felt like I was
groomed to be somebody andthen to be at a job where I'm like,

(52:36):
they're like, no, no, justpress the button, Susan. And I was
like, but I want to do otherthings besides pressing the button.
They're like, stop it. Pressthe button, Susan. So looking back,
I make the shift in 2018 tobecome an artist full time. And I
had a lot of goals. I had alot of money goals and press goals.
And seven years later, I'mlike, all right. Like, the other

(52:59):
week, I did some publicspeaking in front of California Asian
American superintendents,principals, and teachers about owning
our stories. And I was theopening keynote at a conference for
400 people. And it was like.And. And I turned into stand up comedy.
I turned into, like, I wasdoing my talk, and then I. And then

(53:20):
I. And I would do my comedyand it was really amazing. And I
get to do that for a living.
I. I love that. But I lovethe. The underlying thread of the
healing journey you're givingother people through your own healing
journey. Because, like, it'sone thing to finally be in your own

(53:47):
where you are chasing your owngoals, your own things that are filling
your cup versus what youthought other people needed. And
I know you're still working onthe pieces and the achievement pieces,
but to know that, like, evenjust that talk that you just mentioned,
I bet there are so many peoplethat now feel a little bit more ownership
of being fully them andsharing their full story and not

(54:12):
the story that they thinktheir constituents want to hear.
Right? We're all like broken,flawed humans. And to get the permission
to share that aspect of us, Ioften tell people, like, I'm gonna
connect with your valleys waymore than I'm gonna connect with
your. Your peaks of yourmountains. Because those are the

(54:32):
places where we really see howour humanity can exist and move through
and move forward and thosethings. So I just want to say thank
you from the world for openingthe door for so many people to feel
more comfortable sharing whothey are fully. So thank you from
the world received.

(54:54):
Message received.
It's beautiful.
It's like. It's like power Jiujitsu. Because I'm not telling you
what to do, Matt. Correct.Like, I'm just like, here's my story.
Here's my story, you know, andit's. It's. I'm not shooting on you
to do it any way. It's like,it's. I'm just going to tell my story

(55:14):
and I create space. You openthe door, whatever needs to rise,
right? And I think that's thecool thing, right? That's total empowerment.
And I think that's moresustainable, right?
Of, like, that's a byproduct,what you're doing. That's a byproduct
of what you're. What you'redoing. There's probably someone that
watched you six months ago.You planted a seed. They're not feeling,

(55:36):
and they're not feeling it.And then today they think back to
that moment and go, oh, myGod. I'm not the only one that feels
that way. Like, this is not foreign.
Yeah, I get. I get. I love fanmail. And I get the coolest notes
is usually through Instagram.And this one mom was like, hey, I'm
going through a really toughtime. And I listened to your audiobook

(55:59):
and then I got a tattoo. Andit inspires me to get up every day
and support my daughter. And.And when I'm feeling down, I think
about your mother. And she'slike, she's now on the fourth re
listening of the audiobook.And I'm sitting there going, it's
random White woman in SantaRosa, you know? And I was like, wow,
that's amazing. And peoplewill pull me aside on the street
and be like, hey, you're 140pounds. And I was like, depends if

(56:23):
I'm bloated. But no, they'relike, but they're talking about the
show, right? And then they'lltell me which one they went to and
how they made them feel andwhat changes. I. So many notes.
It's beautiful.
Students then pursuing amaster's degree. My book is being
taught in high schools andcolleges in America. And it's just
kind of like I was like, guys,my work is not highbrow. You know,

(56:47):
like, it's not fancyliterature. It's just my honest take
on my experience.
Yeah, it's real.
And. And it. I hope it'sentertaining, but I hope that there's
an unlocking that.
There is for you. There is,and there will be, because now I
will be able to read this to.To hear all the little details, But
I don't know. I think it's so.Whether you told your story to 10

(57:11):
people or 7, 000 people,there's just so such an impact that
I've learned through thisjourney. One quick example. I spoke
to someone. It's probably beenlike 100 episodes ago or so, but
when I was growing up, around16, 15, 16, I got into this phase
in which I convinced myselfthat my mom was not really dead.

(57:34):
She was in a witnessprotection program. And I thought
it was the weirdest thing, soI wouldn't tell anyone. And so I
was talking to this guest, andshe was telling me her father died
when she was 5. And in herteens, she convinced herself that
her father was not dead. Hewas in witness protection and he
was going to come backsomeday. And at that moment, I felt

(57:54):
validated that I was notbroken. I was not weird for thinking
that. And so that's what I'msaying. When people hear these things,
you don't even. It could belike one day you, like, went and
got coffee and this happened,you know, whatever it may be. And
they are like, oh, I'm not theonly one that feels that way. I'm
not. I'm not broken. I'm likea normal human being. And that's

(58:17):
why I keep getting so stuck onhow the byproduct of all the things
you're doing for yourself andfilling these boxes of like this
artist journey that you're on,the byproduct is helping people feel
more human. That I apologizefor coming back to it so many times,
but it's just so important.I'm thinking of the 8 year old Matt,

(58:38):
the 11 year old Susan thatprobably felt one way or another
that like we were the onlyones going through this and like
how the hell are we going toget through it? So thank you for
validating so many people toknow that like they're not the only
ones to feel weird ordifferent or whatever it may be at

(58:58):
that moment in time.
Yeah, I think the core word isbelonging. They don't feel like they
belong.
No. And, and I think by whatyou're doing, the ripple effect is
that parents, what you'redoing with your child now, parents
that see you will also opendoors for their kids, the 8 year

(59:21):
old, the 11 year old, to saythe things that feel uncomfortable,
that feel scary, that feelwhatever it may be. And then we work
through it together as humansbecause that's just what we do. We're
resilient beings whether wewant to be or not. Somehow we always
kind of make our way through,you know, in hard moments. So I,
I just think as hard as yourstory is, the beauty in your story

(59:44):
was when you felt comfortableenough to really share that with
strangers and then go downthat road of healing. So thank you
for your beautiful life storythus far.
Thank you.
I like to kind of bring thesehome and I see we've hit the hour.
Mark, I love to ask a questionand usually I'll go back to, I would

(01:00:07):
go back to this 11 year oldSusan and ask her if this version
of you could say something toher. But I'm almost wondering if
before you walked into thatspace where you shared that story
for the first time, is thereanything that, that you now 2025
Susan would want to say tothat version of Susan about this
journey you were about to go on?

(01:00:28):
Every day just take one morestep, you know, like I had, I had
signed up for the soloperformance class because I was looking
for structure of like how do Ideal with this deep calling? And
it seemed too big and itseemed like I'm too late. Who am
I kidding? And I didn't studytheater, I didn't study writing.

(01:00:58):
And yet I have been able to dothese mediums and share my story.
And I just want to just tell2017. Susan, just take another step.
Every day, just take one smallstep. That's it. One small effort.
Yeah. What do you think shewould say about Susan seeing you
now and the things you're doing?

(01:01:18):
Hell yeah, girl. Hell yeah.Like, I, I, I didn't think it would
come to this. Honestly, Matt.Like, I, I knew I wanted to write
a book, but I didn't actuallythink I get a book deal. I didn't
really think it would hap.Like, I wanted it. I could see it,
but I was like, I don't knowhow. And even now I'm like, I want
to do film and tv. And I'mlike, I got ideas, you know? Like,

(01:01:42):
I, it's. And I'm. I don't knowhow, but, you know, it's possible.
I know it's possible. I mean,maybe seven years from now, we'll
have the same conversation andbe like, what did you Want to tell
2025 Susan?
You know, like, be like, man,you had a lot coming, right?
Maybe. So maybe that's. Ishould take that advice, which is
every day, take one smallstep. That's it. Just one. Just one.

(01:02:03):
No, I love it. If people wantto take a small step in their life
and connect with you and sendyou fan mail or find your book or
get in your circle, what's,like, the best way to find you? Do
you want to hear from people?Like, what's, what's the deal?
Oh, yeah, I'm an extrovert. Iwould love to hear from people. My
website is Susan Liu, Lieu me.And that's where you can subscribe
to my substack Live like youeMortal. You can follow me on Instagram

(01:02:27):
at Susan Liu. And I have apodcast myself. It's called Model
Minority Moms, where we talkabout being everything for everyone
else but ourselves.
Another important thing you'reputting out there. We will put all
those links and stuff in theshow notes. That's the easy part.
Thank you for changing livesthrough this conversation as well.

(01:02:47):
There were things in thisconversation that reminded me of
why I share broken parts of meon social media, on with my friends,
because it creates morehumanity in the people around us.
So thank you for validating myexperience through your story and

(01:03:08):
the way we have thisconversation. Conversation. Thank
you for just wanting to be apart of this.
Thanks for having me.
Well, the, the honor is mine.And thank you to Michelle for connecting
us. If, if, if you'relistening out there and something
that Susan said resonates withyou or you think someone in your
life needs to hear thisconversation. We would love it if
you share this episode withthem and kind of change the world

(01:03:30):
one little ripple at a time.And I think with that, I'm going
to say goodbye. And I'll beback next week with a brand new episode
of the Life Shift podcast.Thanks again, Susan.
Of course.

(01:03:51):
For more information, pleasevisit www.thelifeshiftpodcast.com.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Susan Lieu Breaks Family Silence Through Art and Healing: The Weight of Grief