July 24, 2025 • 18 mins
Is ambition driving you—or draining you? In this powerful episode, Lindsey welcomes Kathy Oneto, author of Sustainable Ambition, to unpack how we can pursue our goals without sacrificing our well-being. They explore how ambition operates on a curve, how to balance drive with rest, and why our motivation doesn’t always have to come from within.
With practical tools and a refreshing take on success, this conversation invites you to slow down, reflect, and align your ambitions with what actually matters.
Listen in to learn more:
Ambition operates like pressure: too much or too little can backfire
‣ 00:00:01 – 00:00:31
Kathy introduces the "ambition curve" and how finding your sweet spot leads to optimal performance. Our culture pushes a ‘more is more’ mindset—but at a cost
‣ 00:01:00 – 00:02:30
Kathy breaks down how external influences and idealized standards can lead to overload and dissatisfaction. Motivation doesn’t have to be pure to be effective
‣ 00:04:30 – 00:06:00
Lindsay and Kathy agree: extrinsic motivators can be valid stepping stones toward deeper purpose. The 4 sustainable motivators: vision, purpose, values, and joy
‣ 00:07:00 – 00:08:30
Kathy walks us through the core motivators behind her framework for sustainable ambition. Ambition changes throughout your life—and that’s okay
‣ 00:09:00 – 00:10:30
From resume goals to legacy building, Kathy shares how our definition of success evolves over time. Ambition isn’t an identity—it’s a state that can ebb and flow
‣ 00:13:00 – 00:15:00
Learn how detaching from ambition as a fixed trait creates space for rest and recovery. The Sustainable Ambition Framework: Right ambition, right time, right effort
‣ 00:16:00 – 00:18:00
Kathy outlines her 3-pillar model and how it can help prevent burnout while still pursuing what matters.
Resources & Mentions:
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-lindsey-elmore-show--5952903/support.
With practical tools and a refreshing take on success, this conversation invites you to slow down, reflect, and align your ambitions with what actually matters.
Listen in to learn more:
Ambition operates like pressure: too much or too little can backfire
‣ 00:00:01 – 00:00:31
Kathy introduces the "ambition curve" and how finding your sweet spot leads to optimal performance. Our culture pushes a ‘more is more’ mindset—but at a cost
‣ 00:01:00 – 00:02:30
Kathy breaks down how external influences and idealized standards can lead to overload and dissatisfaction. Motivation doesn’t have to be pure to be effective
‣ 00:04:30 – 00:06:00
Lindsay and Kathy agree: extrinsic motivators can be valid stepping stones toward deeper purpose. The 4 sustainable motivators: vision, purpose, values, and joy
‣ 00:07:00 – 00:08:30
Kathy walks us through the core motivators behind her framework for sustainable ambition. Ambition changes throughout your life—and that’s okay
‣ 00:09:00 – 00:10:30
From resume goals to legacy building, Kathy shares how our definition of success evolves over time. Ambition isn’t an identity—it’s a state that can ebb and flow
‣ 00:13:00 – 00:15:00
Learn how detaching from ambition as a fixed trait creates space for rest and recovery. The Sustainable Ambition Framework: Right ambition, right time, right effort
‣ 00:16:00 – 00:18:00
Kathy outlines her 3-pillar model and how it can help prevent burnout while still pursuing what matters.
Resources & Mentions:
- Kathy Oneto’s Book: Sustainable Ambition
- Podcast: Sustainable Ambition with Kathy Oneto
- Website: www.sustainableambition.com
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-lindsey-elmore-show--5952903/support.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
This idea similar to pressure and performance, where if there's
too much pressure, you don't perform, if there's too little pressure,
you don't perform. And I think ambition is like that too,
where ambition, where we don't have enough ambition, we can
start to become stagnant. Kathy Aetto, Welcome to the Lindsay
(00:24):
Elmore Show.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Well, Lindsay, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
I'm so excited to talk to you because we're going
to talk about sustainable ambition today because so often I
think people get it in their head.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
That we have to achieve, achieve, achieve.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
And we get into this mindset of if we don't
just have more and more and more all of the time,
day in and day out, sometimes without us even realizing it,
it can take a toll on so emotionally and physically
and relationally. Talk to us about how you see this
(01:09):
more and more nor mentality just present itself and what
are the costs of.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Living in this way? Yes, it's a great question.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Well, our society today, you know, really impacts us to
lean into kind of wanting to do more, more and more.
And you know, we are as humans naturally influenced by
our external world and so that's that's a natural thing.
(01:42):
But as you said, there are these costs to us
feeling like we need to do more. So how does
that show up? Well, one way that shows up is,
you know, today in today's world, kind of this idea
of the fear of missing out right thinking that we
always need to be doing things or we're seeing a
people doing things, And what can happen is we start
(02:03):
chasing more and more and more and not checking in
to really determine, well, is that something I really want
to do. It can also start to lead to us,
you know, putting more on our plates than we really
have the capacity for. So it's very natural for us
humans again to be overly optimistic about all that we
(02:24):
want to do and or that we can do rather
and we also have a bias toward adding things. But
the problem is right that we can always get overloaded
and over extend ourselves when we are constantly saying yes
to things. And then also in our world, we have
(02:45):
these ideal norms that have formed ideal workers, ideal parenting,
and that also influences us to think we always need
to be doing more. That also leads to this that
so many of us today in our work are always
on we're always connected, and so what does that lead to?
(03:08):
It can lead to as ultimately, if I go back
to even the first one, Oh, we're chasing things that
were influenced by external forces.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
We may be chasing things we don't even want.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
So then we end up being unsatisfied and we're wondering why,
you know, we're chasing things and doing more and more
and more and putting more on our plates. So we're
constantly overwhelmed. And if we're always on right and we're
always leading, you know, trying to achieve these ideals, we're
overextending ourselves and getting over exhausted. We're stressed, and oftentimes
(03:39):
we're not recovering enough to really be able to sustain ourselves.
So I have kind of a love hate relationship with
this idea of external versus internal motivations, Because if somebody
is living in a situation where they are either unhappy,
(04:05):
or they're overweight, or they're not sleeping, or they've got
an unhealthy marriage or whatever is going on in their lives,
that's not this kind of north star of where they
want to go, where instead of having that fear of
missing out, they're like I will leave this stuff out
because I'm in pursuit of this thing. I personally don't
(04:30):
quite care if the motivation is extrinsic or intrinsic. I
just want people to get up, move, try something, be
unafraid to fail, and just say I'm going to get
out there and live life.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
If someone is in.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
A situation where they're like, I haven't gotten off the
couch in you know, a month, and I don't care
what it is, but if it's an extrinsic motivation, I'm going.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
To use it to get me off the couch. But yet,
at some point, we really want to find.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
What is in us that is driving us towards our
purpose and something greater. How do you take people from
inaction through the inertia If we have to use that
extrinsic motivation validation to eventually land us at purpose, how
(05:34):
do you walk people through that pathway?
Speaker 1 (05:38):
I really love this, Lindsay, and I appreciate you bringing
this up because I too don't like to live in
the land of either or. I think that there is
a reality that external is not all bad right to
your point, and many of us are achievement oriented and
we want some of those external accolades, right, And so
(06:00):
it's not all bad, and you're right, sometimes we need
some of these external forces to help motivate us, right.
And by the way, some of that external kind of
feedback feeds our self efficacy and gives us confidence to
continue moving forward.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
So I totally agree with you. External isn't all bad.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
And the other component of it is, you know, when
we don't know ourselves as well, which, by the way,
life is a learning journey learning about ourselves and understanding ourselves,
and especially when we're younger, we don't many of us,
eighty percent of us, according to research by Stanford Adolescent Center,
don't have a clear vision of who we want to
(06:39):
be and where what we want to achieve in our life.
And I think that's obviously eighty percent of us. That's
more normal than not. And so using these external guides
early on in particular, I think it's very natural and
it's very normal.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
And so to your point where I try.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
To point people in this journey from Okay, I might
be using these external things to motivate me, but how
do I find myself in that? And so I like
to lean towards the idea of congruence or you know,
finding the residence in it for you. And so you know,
there are foreign motivators that I talk about in my
(07:18):
book Sustainable Ambition, And you know the four that I
reference are you know, vision, Well, what kind of vision.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Do I have for myself? And again that's going to.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Change over time? But what do I want for myself?
It's looking at you mentioned purpose. So I like to
think about purposes. How do I want to give or
contribute or kind of what kind of impact do I
want to have in the world, because I think purpose
can feel very lofty and big for people and out
of reach, but we can learn or kind of ascertain, well,
(07:47):
how do I just want to contribute or make an
impact in this particular moment.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
The third is values? What are important to you?
Speaker 1 (07:54):
And I think we can learn those about ourselves over
time and those tend to be more sticky.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
And then the final one is well what do you love?
Speaker 4 (08:02):
You know?
Speaker 1 (08:02):
What really you know in the more academic sense that
true intrinsic motivator of kind of like.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
What do I do just for the pure satisfaction of it?
So where I like to coach people is to kind
of say, well, where can you align to one of
those motivators, right to find some of yourself in it.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Because even if, for example, you have work that you
might consider a job just a job, nothing wrong with that, right,
But my hope might be, well, how do you see
it connecting for you? How does that job contribute to
the vision you have for your life. Maybe it's about, well,
it's really important for me to care for my family,
and that's how it fits in. You know, that could
(08:40):
also be connecting then to a value that's really important
to you, right, you know, so there are different ways
to I think, find a little bit of yourself, even
if some of these things might start as being extrinsically driven.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
How do you think that this pursuit of purpose changes
across the lifetime.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
I think that's a great think. That's a great question.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
You know.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
It's interesting that you so I'm gonna you know, I
do think it can change. And you know, I'm kind
of basing this based on other people's work and what
some other people kind of talk about. You know, I
think that I'll start with later in life. Often people
kind of say and people have written about, you know,
like David Brooks has talked about like the resume virtues
(09:29):
early on, you're trying to kind of it's more a
little more ego driven. You're trying to achieve things, and
then once you get to a certain point, you start
to switch to these like eulogy, you know, kind of
achieve achievements. You know, so you know, what do you
want to be known for? You know, how do you
want to contribute? How you want to give back? You know,
people start to talk about legacy a little bit later on,
(09:49):
and so I do think that that is a natural.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Thing that happens.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
And yet there's research now that I'm honestly just starting
to dig into more that talks about how how connecting
people to mattering and being able to make a contribution
can really support their own self efficacy. And I was
listening to a researcher, unfortunately I'm going to forget her
(10:15):
name right now, but who was talking about this in
connection with young kids and how kids, for example, in
high school these days, especially high achieving high schools, are
getting stressed out and are overly worried about figuring out
their path and needing to set themselves up for success.
And they're finding that even with some of these kids,
(10:37):
you know, connecting them to how can they matter and
how can they contribute and even how do they matter
to their family unit? And contribute to a family and
unit can really help them in terms of again building
that self confidence, that self efficacy, and it's helping from
a stress management mental health perspective as well.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Let's take it to the opposite side.
Speaker 5 (11:03):
When does the ambition come into felt sabotage?
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Yeah, that's a good question. Yeah, I think about this.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
So one of the things that I talk about in
the book, and I'll admit this is not overly scientific, Lindsay,
but I do believe that ambition operates on a U
curve in my in my sense, and so the way
that that usually is represented in kind of scientific ways
is like it actually looks.
Speaker 4 (11:30):
Like an upside down you.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
But it is this idea similar to pressure and performance,
where if there's too much pressure, you don't perform, if
there's too little pressure, you don't perform. And I think
ambition is like that too, where ambition, where we don't
have enough ambition, we can start to become stagnant and
(11:52):
like you were talking about earlier, maybe not getting ourselves
off up off the couch. We're not feeling engaged, we're
not kind of participating and things we're not feeling motivated.
But it can start to you know, get into the
you know, danger zone if you will, or I kind
of say the severe zone when we start to get
(12:13):
negatively attached to striving, when it gets back to that
kind of desire to wanting to do more and more
and more, we feel compelled to continuously achieve, and when
that starts to lead to us over extending ourselves to
the detriment of perhaps putting other things in our life
that are really important to us to the side, and
(12:34):
we're putting aside our well being in terms.
Speaker 4 (12:36):
Of the pursuit of those ambitions. So is there a
time life where we kind of get on a curve
where sometimes we're really ambitious and then other times it's like,
you know what, I Am going to take some time off.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
And how do we get out of this kind of
keeping up with the joneses mentality and allow ourselves like, hey,
I just finished my degree, I don't have to do
another one right now, Or you.
Speaker 5 (13:12):
Know, I just spent six months planning a wedding.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
I don't have to go on a honeymoon right now.
How we get out of these societal pressures to continue
to go, go go, what you kind of call status
anxiety and say, you know what, I have enough ambition
(13:35):
for today and it's not as high as it was
three days ago. And yeah, So I love this question, Lindsey,
because I do believe that ambition is you know, does
ebb and flow over time? It Actually I would characterize
it as ambition has different states of ambition, and so
(13:55):
I think what can help people is to one What
often happens is that peace people think that about themselves
as ambition is kind of a character trait.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
They see it as part of their identity.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
I am somebody who is ambitious, and I think if
we can help shift people's mindsets from seeing it just
as a character trait to actually being like, no, I
have different states of ambition, and ambition can go up
and down and ebb and flow over time. If we
can shift our mindset around that, I think we can
then allow ourselves more permission to say, you know what,
(14:29):
I don't have to be driving hard all the time.
I can give myself a break and actually see that
I just went through an intense period.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
I was ambitious about that.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Now, but I need and I need a break to
be able to restore myself. I think the other shift
that people can make is to recognize that ambition. Yes,
it's connected with the I idea of hard work, something
that you know, it's connected to a.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Desire that you want.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
You know that you have where you want to put
in the hard work. But that doesn't mean that you
have to be driving hard all the time. You know,
humans operate between two states, right, you use your energy
and you need to restore it. And so allowing yourself
that space to be able to actually restore your energy
(15:16):
as well, I think is really important. So I think
it starts with some mindset shifts, as I'm saying, to
then give yourself permission to actually dial it down so
that you can remain ambitious over a longer time and
actually make it sustainable.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Let's talk about you know, your book is Sustainable Sustainable Ambition,
How to prioritize what matters to thrive in life and work,
and you talk about the sustainable ambition brain work where
you have three pillars, the right ambition, the right time,
(15:54):
and the right efforts.
Speaker 5 (15:57):
You say that doing this can help people to chase
goals without burnout. And you've talked about it on your podcast,
and your podcast has the same name sustainable ambition, So
talk to us about those three killers and how people
can put them into play in their lives.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yes, so I think about sustainable ambition. Let me just
also say, like to me, it's about how do we
pursue our goals and dreams in a way that's like fulfilling,
focused and manageable both in the short term and the
long term, rather than the all consuming and leading to
sacrificing yourself or your life in the process. And so
(16:43):
as you said, it's about to me, directing our ambitions
both consciously and also wisely.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
By aligning the right ambition at the right time with
the right effort.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
So right ambition is really about part of what we
talked about before, which is how can we get connect
to our goals and ambitions how can we make them
meaningful and motivating to us? So that is about connecting
to those motivators that I shared earlier. Right time is
about thinking about, well, how can I prioritize what matters
(17:15):
most now across life and work, taking both into consideration.
And then right effort is about being discerning about where
we're using our effort, both how much effort am I
putting into things? But then how am I managing my
energy over time? So I do keep myself sustained. And
I think a couple of key things just to call
(17:36):
out really quickly. One is that people may see the
term right as being oh, there's a right or a
wrong way to do this, And what I mean by
right is really kind of more that Goldilock's right.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
It's about getting it right for you.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
And this is very much a personal activity and a
personal practice. And I think that second point that I
want to make is related to that word practice, which is,
to me, this is not e I'm you know, I'm
not saying that this is like I have a magic
wand and I'll like you're bur out forever.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
It's like, No, this.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Takes constant attunement, and it takes it's a constant practice
to kind of keep things in alignment for yourself.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Kathy is the founder of Sustainable Ambition, host of the
Sustainable Ambition Podcast, and the author of the new book
Sustainable Ambition, How to Prioritize what matters to thrive in
life and work.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
This is the Lindsay Eilmore Show
This idea similar to pressure and performance, where if there's
too much pressure, you don't perform, if there's too little pressure,
you don't perform. And I think ambition is like that too,
where ambition, where we don't have enough ambition, we can
start to become stagnant. Kathy Aetto, Welcome to the Lindsay
(00:24):
Elmore Show.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Well, Lindsay, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
I'm so excited to talk to you because we're going
to talk about sustainable ambition today because so often I
think people get it in their head.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
That we have to achieve, achieve, achieve.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
And we get into this mindset of if we don't
just have more and more and more all of the time,
day in and day out, sometimes without us even realizing it,
it can take a toll on so emotionally and physically
and relationally. Talk to us about how you see this
(01:09):
more and more nor mentality just present itself and what
are the costs of.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Living in this way? Yes, it's a great question.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Well, our society today, you know, really impacts us to
lean into kind of wanting to do more, more and more.
And you know, we are as humans naturally influenced by
our external world and so that's that's a natural thing.
(01:42):
But as you said, there are these costs to us
feeling like we need to do more. So how does
that show up? Well, one way that shows up is,
you know, today in today's world, kind of this idea
of the fear of missing out right thinking that we
always need to be doing things or we're seeing a
people doing things, And what can happen is we start
(02:03):
chasing more and more and more and not checking in
to really determine, well, is that something I really want
to do. It can also start to lead to us,
you know, putting more on our plates than we really
have the capacity for. So it's very natural for us
humans again to be overly optimistic about all that we
(02:24):
want to do and or that we can do rather
and we also have a bias toward adding things. But
the problem is right that we can always get overloaded
and over extend ourselves when we are constantly saying yes
to things. And then also in our world, we have
(02:45):
these ideal norms that have formed ideal workers, ideal parenting,
and that also influences us to think we always need
to be doing more. That also leads to this that
so many of us today in our work are always
on we're always connected, and so what does that lead to?
(03:08):
It can lead to as ultimately, if I go back
to even the first one, Oh, we're chasing things that
were influenced by external forces.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
We may be chasing things we don't even want.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
So then we end up being unsatisfied and we're wondering why,
you know, we're chasing things and doing more and more
and more and putting more on our plates. So we're
constantly overwhelmed. And if we're always on right and we're
always leading, you know, trying to achieve these ideals, we're
overextending ourselves and getting over exhausted. We're stressed, and oftentimes
(03:39):
we're not recovering enough to really be able to sustain ourselves.
So I have kind of a love hate relationship with
this idea of external versus internal motivations, Because if somebody
is living in a situation where they are either unhappy,
(04:05):
or they're overweight, or they're not sleeping, or they've got
an unhealthy marriage or whatever is going on in their lives,
that's not this kind of north star of where they
want to go, where instead of having that fear of
missing out, they're like I will leave this stuff out
because I'm in pursuit of this thing. I personally don't
(04:30):
quite care if the motivation is extrinsic or intrinsic. I
just want people to get up, move, try something, be
unafraid to fail, and just say I'm going to get
out there and live life.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
If someone is in.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
A situation where they're like, I haven't gotten off the
couch in you know, a month, and I don't care
what it is, but if it's an extrinsic motivation, I'm going.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
To use it to get me off the couch. But yet,
at some point, we really want to find.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
What is in us that is driving us towards our
purpose and something greater. How do you take people from
inaction through the inertia If we have to use that
extrinsic motivation validation to eventually land us at purpose, how
(05:34):
do you walk people through that pathway?
Speaker 1 (05:38):
I really love this, Lindsay, and I appreciate you bringing
this up because I too don't like to live in
the land of either or. I think that there is
a reality that external is not all bad right to
your point, and many of us are achievement oriented and
we want some of those external accolades, right, And so
(06:00):
it's not all bad, and you're right, sometimes we need
some of these external forces to help motivate us, right.
And by the way, some of that external kind of
feedback feeds our self efficacy and gives us confidence to
continue moving forward.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
So I totally agree with you. External isn't all bad.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
And the other component of it is, you know, when
we don't know ourselves as well, which, by the way,
life is a learning journey learning about ourselves and understanding ourselves,
and especially when we're younger, we don't many of us,
eighty percent of us, according to research by Stanford Adolescent Center,
don't have a clear vision of who we want to
(06:39):
be and where what we want to achieve in our life.
And I think that's obviously eighty percent of us. That's
more normal than not. And so using these external guides
early on in particular, I think it's very natural and
it's very normal.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
And so to your point where I try.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
To point people in this journey from Okay, I might
be using these external things to motivate me, but how
do I find myself in that? And so I like
to lean towards the idea of congruence or you know,
finding the residence in it for you. And so you know,
there are foreign motivators that I talk about in my
(07:18):
book Sustainable Ambition, And you know the four that I
reference are you know, vision, Well, what kind of vision.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Do I have for myself? And again that's going to.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Change over time? But what do I want for myself?
It's looking at you mentioned purpose. So I like to
think about purposes. How do I want to give or
contribute or kind of what kind of impact do I
want to have in the world, because I think purpose
can feel very lofty and big for people and out
of reach, but we can learn or kind of ascertain, well,
(07:47):
how do I just want to contribute or make an
impact in this particular moment.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
The third is values? What are important to you?
Speaker 1 (07:54):
And I think we can learn those about ourselves over
time and those tend to be more sticky.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
And then the final one is well what do you love?
Speaker 4 (08:02):
You know?
Speaker 1 (08:02):
What really you know in the more academic sense that
true intrinsic motivator of kind of like.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
What do I do just for the pure satisfaction of it?
So where I like to coach people is to kind
of say, well, where can you align to one of
those motivators, right to find some of yourself in it.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Because even if, for example, you have work that you
might consider a job just a job, nothing wrong with that, right,
But my hope might be, well, how do you see
it connecting for you? How does that job contribute to
the vision you have for your life. Maybe it's about, well,
it's really important for me to care for my family,
and that's how it fits in. You know, that could
(08:40):
also be connecting then to a value that's really important
to you, right, you know, so there are different ways
to I think, find a little bit of yourself, even
if some of these things might start as being extrinsically driven.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
How do you think that this pursuit of purpose changes
across the lifetime.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
I think that's a great think. That's a great question.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
You know.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
It's interesting that you so I'm gonna you know, I
do think it can change. And you know, I'm kind
of basing this based on other people's work and what
some other people kind of talk about. You know, I
think that I'll start with later in life. Often people
kind of say and people have written about, you know,
like David Brooks has talked about like the resume virtues
(09:29):
early on, you're trying to kind of it's more a
little more ego driven. You're trying to achieve things, and
then once you get to a certain point, you start
to switch to these like eulogy, you know, kind of
achieve achievements. You know, so you know, what do you
want to be known for? You know, how do you
want to contribute? How you want to give back? You know,
people start to talk about legacy a little bit later on,
(09:49):
and so I do think that that is a natural.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Thing that happens.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
And yet there's research now that I'm honestly just starting
to dig into more that talks about how how connecting
people to mattering and being able to make a contribution
can really support their own self efficacy. And I was
listening to a researcher, unfortunately I'm going to forget her
(10:15):
name right now, but who was talking about this in
connection with young kids and how kids, for example, in
high school these days, especially high achieving high schools, are
getting stressed out and are overly worried about figuring out
their path and needing to set themselves up for success.
And they're finding that even with some of these kids,
(10:37):
you know, connecting them to how can they matter and
how can they contribute and even how do they matter
to their family unit? And contribute to a family and
unit can really help them in terms of again building
that self confidence, that self efficacy, and it's helping from
a stress management mental health perspective as well.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Let's take it to the opposite side.
Speaker 5 (11:03):
When does the ambition come into felt sabotage?
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Yeah, that's a good question. Yeah, I think about this.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
So one of the things that I talk about in
the book, and I'll admit this is not overly scientific, Lindsay,
but I do believe that ambition operates on a U
curve in my in my sense, and so the way
that that usually is represented in kind of scientific ways
is like it actually looks.
Speaker 4 (11:30):
Like an upside down you.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
But it is this idea similar to pressure and performance,
where if there's too much pressure, you don't perform, if
there's too little pressure, you don't perform. And I think
ambition is like that too, where ambition, where we don't
have enough ambition, we can start to become stagnant and
(11:52):
like you were talking about earlier, maybe not getting ourselves
off up off the couch. We're not feeling engaged, we're
not kind of participating and things we're not feeling motivated.
But it can start to you know, get into the
you know, danger zone if you will, or I kind
of say the severe zone when we start to get
(12:13):
negatively attached to striving, when it gets back to that
kind of desire to wanting to do more and more
and more, we feel compelled to continuously achieve, and when
that starts to lead to us over extending ourselves to
the detriment of perhaps putting other things in our life
that are really important to us to the side, and
(12:34):
we're putting aside our well being in terms.
Speaker 4 (12:36):
Of the pursuit of those ambitions. So is there a
time life where we kind of get on a curve
where sometimes we're really ambitious and then other times it's like,
you know what, I Am going to take some time off.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
And how do we get out of this kind of
keeping up with the joneses mentality and allow ourselves like, hey,
I just finished my degree, I don't have to do
another one right now, Or you.
Speaker 5 (13:12):
Know, I just spent six months planning a wedding.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
I don't have to go on a honeymoon right now.
How we get out of these societal pressures to continue
to go, go go, what you kind of call status
anxiety and say, you know what, I have enough ambition
(13:35):
for today and it's not as high as it was
three days ago. And yeah, So I love this question, Lindsey,
because I do believe that ambition is you know, does
ebb and flow over time? It Actually I would characterize
it as ambition has different states of ambition, and so
(13:55):
I think what can help people is to one What
often happens is that peace people think that about themselves
as ambition is kind of a character trait.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
They see it as part of their identity.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
I am somebody who is ambitious, and I think if
we can help shift people's mindsets from seeing it just
as a character trait to actually being like, no, I
have different states of ambition, and ambition can go up
and down and ebb and flow over time. If we
can shift our mindset around that, I think we can
then allow ourselves more permission to say, you know what,
(14:29):
I don't have to be driving hard all the time.
I can give myself a break and actually see that
I just went through an intense period.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
I was ambitious about that.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Now, but I need and I need a break to
be able to restore myself. I think the other shift
that people can make is to recognize that ambition. Yes,
it's connected with the I idea of hard work, something
that you know, it's connected to a.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Desire that you want.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
You know that you have where you want to put
in the hard work. But that doesn't mean that you
have to be driving hard all the time. You know,
humans operate between two states, right, you use your energy
and you need to restore it. And so allowing yourself
that space to be able to actually restore your energy
(15:16):
as well, I think is really important. So I think
it starts with some mindset shifts, as I'm saying, to
then give yourself permission to actually dial it down so
that you can remain ambitious over a longer time and
actually make it sustainable.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Let's talk about you know, your book is Sustainable Sustainable Ambition,
How to prioritize what matters to thrive in life and work,
and you talk about the sustainable ambition brain work where
you have three pillars, the right ambition, the right time,
(15:54):
and the right efforts.
Speaker 5 (15:57):
You say that doing this can help people to chase
goals without burnout. And you've talked about it on your podcast,
and your podcast has the same name sustainable ambition, So
talk to us about those three killers and how people
can put them into play in their lives.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yes, so I think about sustainable ambition. Let me just
also say, like to me, it's about how do we
pursue our goals and dreams in a way that's like fulfilling,
focused and manageable both in the short term and the
long term, rather than the all consuming and leading to
sacrificing yourself or your life in the process. And so
(16:43):
as you said, it's about to me, directing our ambitions
both consciously and also wisely.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
By aligning the right ambition at the right time with
the right effort.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
So right ambition is really about part of what we
talked about before, which is how can we get connect
to our goals and ambitions how can we make them
meaningful and motivating to us? So that is about connecting
to those motivators that I shared earlier. Right time is
about thinking about, well, how can I prioritize what matters
(17:15):
most now across life and work, taking both into consideration.
And then right effort is about being discerning about where
we're using our effort, both how much effort am I
putting into things? But then how am I managing my
energy over time? So I do keep myself sustained. And
I think a couple of key things just to call
(17:36):
out really quickly. One is that people may see the
term right as being oh, there's a right or a
wrong way to do this, And what I mean by
right is really kind of more that Goldilock's right.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
It's about getting it right for you.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
And this is very much a personal activity and a
personal practice. And I think that second point that I
want to make is related to that word practice, which is,
to me, this is not e I'm you know, I'm
not saying that this is like I have a magic
wand and I'll like you're bur out forever.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
It's like, No, this.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Takes constant attunement, and it takes it's a constant practice
to kind of keep things in alignment for yourself.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Kathy is the founder of Sustainable Ambition, host of the
Sustainable Ambition Podcast, and the author of the new book
Sustainable Ambition, How to Prioritize what matters to thrive in
life and work.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
This is the Lindsay Eilmore Show
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