July 17, 2025 • 34 mins
Listen & Watch Links
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🌐 Visit Dr. Kyra's website: https://drkyrabobinet.com
Why do we keep doing the things we know aren’t working? In this episode, Dr. Kyra Bobinet, author of Unstoppable Brain, breaks down the real reason behavior change feels so impossible—and how neuroscience can set us free.
Lindsey and Dr. Kyra delve into the brain’s habenula (also known as the failure detector), examine why hustle culture can lead to burnout, and uncover the shame loops that undermine our best intentions. Dr. Kyra shares a compassionate, science-backed path to sustainable change rooted in rest, self-trust, and the courage to try again.
If you've ever thought, “I know what to do, I just don’t do it,” this episode is your permission slip to stop performing and start healing.
Key Takeaways
- The habenula shuts down motivation after repeated perceived failures.
- Traditional self-help often triggers shame instead of promoting change.
- Hustle culture teaches performance, not transformation.
- True behavior change requires rest, self-compassion, and aligned action.
- You are not broken—your brain is trying to protect you.
00:00 – Intro and trigger warning: performance pressure & behavior change
03:45 – Why motivation isn't enough
07:12 – The hidden brain region that controls behavior (the habenula)
12:30 – Burnout cycles and shame triggers
18:15 – The trap of perfectionism in wellness culture
24:02 – Three "medicines" for the brain's failure loop
29:45 – How to recognize sustainable transformation
Resources & Next Steps
- Learn more about Dr. Kyra and her work: https://drkyrabobinet.com
- Grab a copy of Unstoppable Brain
- Subscribe to the show for more insights on healing, growth, and purpose-driven living
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-lindsey-elmore-show--5952903/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
We know what we should do, we just don't actually
want to do it. So we're gonna talk about doctor
Chira's book Unstoppable Brain that d bunks today's over dependence
on performance driven tools such as calorie counting and smart
goals and likes and followers that attempt to motivate us
(00:24):
in to behavioral change. Doctor Kira Bobinette, Welcome to the
Lindsay Elmore Show.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Great to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I'm so excited to get to talk to you again.
You have a book called Unstoppable Brain, and you talk
about biological reasons that people are running on empty and
you talk about a structure in the brain called the habenula,
and you talk about how it is the brain's failure detector.
(01:00):
Talk to us about what this is, why it is important,
and how does it cause us to get stuck?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yeah? Yeah, So this is the brake pedal for all
behavior in the brain. This determines whether you do something
or you don't do something. And so it is the
definition of stuckness meant to keep us from taking life
threatening risks and bad decisions. And so what happens is
that when we try to do something different with our lives,
(01:31):
like let's say we're trying to improve our lives and
be more rested or be more well in general. This
is the part of the brain that if we judge
ourselves secretly, silently, or we feel like we're not doing
it perfectly or the right way, then this area of
the brain will become activated. And that's just like in
the break in the breaks in your car, you pump
(01:52):
the brakes, you're going to come to a screeching halt.
And so we don't know that we're doing this to ourselves.
But by thinking in terms terms of all or nothing,
black and white comparison thinking, I call these failure diseases.
You know, these kind of repeated patterns of how we
quote unquote fail how we just get disappointed, how we
(02:13):
get frustrated, those kinds of things. If we don't tend
to those thoughts, then they activate this area and we
lose all of our motivation to keep trying good things.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
So when you say failure, you mentioned frustration, I'm assuming
this is where you actually set out, you have a goal,
you don't achieve it. But what are some of the
more subtle ways that we quote fail throughout the day.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yeah, failure is something that we've been so avoidant of
it as a society that we haven't embraced all the
different forms that it can take in our brain, all
the different signals that we can perceive of as a failure.
You're you know, you could fail at doom scrolling something
as you know, silly as that can turn on this
part of the brain and kill your motivation. So we
(03:08):
just didn't know that this existed, and so therefore we're
not taking it seriously yet. So disappointment center is another
nickname for this in the science world. And you know,
the main thing is that anything that makes you feel bad, helpless, powerless,
like you're not doing it right, like it didn't go
exactly as planned, anything anything like that, Any thoughts like
(03:32):
that can turn this part on. And this part of
your brain is also responsible for, you know, negative self talk.
So anytime you're being hard on yourself, anytime you're judging
yourself or criticizing yourself inside your own head, this is
going to be the area that you're activating, and then
you're killing your motivation to do something good for yourself.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
It sounds like this is not a good structure, Like
why do we need this in our brains?
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Yeah, well, I mean it keeps us alive, you know,
it keeps us from touching the hot stove more than once.
It keeps us from making stupid decisions and keeps us
from making you know, risky decisions with our money or
our relationships or even our health, you know. And so
it is a good thing to have this kind of
more conservative area of the brain that's like no, no, no,
you know, like think about it, you know, don't do that,
(04:24):
don't just like, you know, throw caution to the wind.
But again, when it comes to good stuff, it's also
stopping us. It's also the brake pedal. And so I
think that's just something that people we just didn't know
until now.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Where is this located in our brain?
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Yeah, I recently talked to a habenula researcher, and it's
a very small community of habenula researchers in the world, right,
but this is like one of the only women, I think,
And she said, you know, our joke in our circles,
it's a nerdy joke, is you know, the whole cortex,
all the other brain matter is just there as padding
for the habenula, meaning that it is at this center,
(05:03):
the very center of the brain in the midbrain, and
so their joke is like everything else is just kind
of like a pillow around this area to keep it safe.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Okay, Okay, So it's not like in the limbic system,
the cortex, the here, the there, It's it's kind of
is it diffuse or is it like, oh, it's as Yeah, all.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Of those, all of those come into this hub, and
so therefore it has control over those functions. It controls
your mood, you know. It is responsible for depression, anxiety.
It's responsible for addiction and withdraw symptoms from addiction. It's
responsible for your motivation, your dopamine system, your serotonin system,
(05:52):
your melatonin system. All of these things are all centralizing
to this little, tiny half centimeter double like little peace
in the middle of your brain.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Okay, So how do we care for this area of
our brain if it's so important in protecting us and
preventing us from making irrational and stupid decisions, How do
we care for this area of our brain?
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Yeah? I think that the main thing that we're dealing
with now in our society is that there's so much
information flooding our brain like no other generation before us
has had to deal with the amount of information and
the amount of decision making and discernment that our brains
have to these days, and it's exhausting. I mean, people
are tired, they're burned out because we didn't know about
(06:44):
this area of the brain. And now the modern skill
is to a notice when it's on. So things like procrastination,
things like feeling badly, things like feeling unmotivated, those are
all signs and symptoms that this area the brain is on,
because it turns on without us knowing it, right, because
we kind of just have our thoughts and we don't
(07:06):
realize that our thoughts triggered it, and then we're like, oops,
I'm procrastinating. Why am I procrastinating? So the modern skill
is number one, noticing those symptoms number two, then secondarily
doing everything you can to hunt where you might have
failed or felt disappointed or frustrated or disempowered, and then
turning it off deliberately, meaning that you either get support
(07:29):
you know, through peers or friends or things like that,
or you go to therapy or you do something good
for your body, you know, anything that can shut it off,
because you are basically saying what matters is that I
didn't fail tell a different story, have a different way
of thinking about it. It's called reframing in psychology, where
(07:51):
you know, I thought about it this way, and now
I'm thinking about it this way. And the more you
can think that you cannot fail at something and you
have failed it's something, the more protected you are from
this mechanism.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Is it dangerous for us to turn off this function
of the hebenula?
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Yeah? I think what we're seeing in addiction medicine is that,
and also in depression is that once you overstimulate it,
like you trigger it, trigger it, trigger, it starts to shrink,
they think. And that's just like the breaks in your car.
If it starts, your brake pads wear out, then you
don't got brakes, and your brakes go out, and then
you do reckless things unopposed. So when you shrink, you know,
(08:34):
people with shrunken hemenula are usually depressed. They are impulsive,
they are addicted to things, and they feel out of control.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Ah ah. And if somebody has a shrunken hebenula, are
there things that we can do to expand it again?
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Yeah? And what's so interesting is that there was a
study on bariactric surgery patients and they weren't looking for this,
but they found in their brain scans after about six
months post surgery that their habenula had returned to a
normal size, but that because they were probably addicted to
food and maybe other things in the beginning, they had
(09:14):
shrunken habenula probably depressed all those things that they were experiencing.
Depression is a symptom in my opinion, it's not a disease.
It's something that is a symptom of, Hey, my hebenula
is on, I need to do something about it. And
now that we know, we can put these pieces together.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
What do you think depression is a symptom of failure?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Yeah, I think I failed at something. I fail at
being like the other kids. I fail at, you know,
being the perfect mom. I fail at you know, I
have some expectation of where I should be in my career,
or my relationship should be a certain way, or I
should be a certain way, or gosh, I shouldn't you know,
watch so much TV shows and things like that, like
(10:00):
just those little life failures, and then they turn on
and because you are depressed, you are depressed, meaning that
the more depressed you are, the more depressive symptoms you're
going to experience because you can't find your way out
of the failure free fall.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
If we're in this failure free fall, is it only
leading to depression or can it also lead to emotional
outbursts or anxiety or antidonia you know, I mean they
can manifest Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yeah, it's a long list sleep disorders. So you know,
the habenula is also in charge of your circadian rhythm,
particularly the sort of non rem sleep where you're recovering.
And it also drives emotional eating and stress eating and
also stress itself, chronic stress. Okay, And so all of
(10:56):
the things that we in our society think are problematic
around our mental health and our lack of well being
seem to pivot or center around the habenula's actions. And
so that's why I say that the modern skill is
learning how to figure out where your thought you failed
and then to find a way to you know, believe otherwise,
(11:19):
and to talk yourself out of it or get yourself
out of it, let it go. Even some people can
do that.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
I think a lot of people are afraid of failure
and afraid to talk about failure. How do you encourage,
you know, parents to talk to children about failures, spouses
to talk about failures, and how do we talk about
failure more effectively in the workplace.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Yeah, I feel like what's working for people that I
talk to is failure is an illusion. It's a concept,
not a reality, because you know, you cannot fail at
living your life. You cannot fail it being you. This
is what I tell children, is where I tell teenagers
and young people especially because they are, you know, facing
(12:05):
a world where they put so much pressure on themselves.
You know, we have these kids performing at like nine ten.
You know. It was this very very successful executive and
I had a conversation the other day and her son
threw up at summer camp because it was soccer and
he was he was he had so much performance anxiety
that he had to go home for the day because
(12:25):
he was just so high, strong and nauseous. Right, And
so you know, we have to protect our children and
kind of pad them with, Hey, you know, you cannot
fail at this. You know, even if you don't do
well at soccer camp or whatever, maybe soccer is not
your thing, Life will guide you to your thing. You
(12:46):
are an athlete, regardless of soccer or no soccer. So
those kinds of things. I think if parents know about
this mechanism in their child's brain, let alone what they
should do for themselves. You know, they can help protect
their children as they're going into these performative environments like school,
like sports, like any skill that your child is endeavoring.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
I mean, I think a lot of a lot of
children and a lot of adults are going into either
a literal game, a sports game, or kind of the
game of life where they're in some sort of working environment,
a parenting environment that's challenging, caring for an elderly parent,
(13:29):
and a lot of people feel like they're doing all
the right things and yet they're living on the edge
of burnout all the time, sometimes for years. Where does
this emotional exhaustion arise from and how can people overcome it?
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah? Two things expectations and comparisons. You know, we get
this idea with media, social media that can think of
how perfect we need to be, and we even take
that into our home communities and schools and religious organizations
and feel like we're not measuring up. And you know,
I love the phrase giving yourself grace, like that should
(14:12):
be endless grace. You know, that shouldn't just be in
that moment, it should just say like, hey, you know,
nobody's perfect. Literally, no matter what they look like, there's
nobody who's perfect. I've met them all, you know, supermodels
and famous people and all these people that people look
up to, and everybody suffers, and so realizing that, you know,
(14:33):
realizing that you're doing the best you can and loving
your effort, you know, as a caregiver. You know, my
mom took care of my grandmother for ten years in
her home, and she was burned out and she was
exhausted because she was also raising my little sister. And
I just said to her one day, I was like,
wellm you're doing everything right. And I could just feel
(14:54):
the exhale because she put pressure on herself. Now, remember
the hbanola is the source of negatives off talk, So
her hebenula is going, you know, I'm failing at carrying,
I'm failing at parenting. I'm failing and failing and failing.
And you know, again, burnout is basically you know what
you should do, you're just not doing it. And that's
because your herbnula is on right. So the ease come.
(15:17):
The ease comes from turning it off, like getting good
at turning it off, and in my family were an
active conversation around this, Okay, where's your track it? Where's
your hebenula on? Oh how do you turn it off? Well,
I think I could do this, or I think I
could believe this, or I could let go of the
idea of the perfection or my expectation. Like that kind
(15:41):
of mental flexibility, which recently was shown to be the
definition of intelligence, is cognitive flexibility. The mental flexibility, the
adaptation that I call it iterative mindset, you know, the
ability to iterate your way through life so that you
are protected from failure.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
So if someone is living in a mindset where they
just think that they're failing at everything, you know, it's
great to be like just turn it off, But what
are some ways that you encourage people with some like
(16:21):
really down to earth, meaningful lifestyle interventions that can take
them from this mindset of I'm not going to try
because I'm going to fail to. Even if it doesn't
turn out the way that I want it to, it
doesn't mean that it's a failure.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Yeah. And I found in my research that people who
you know are good at this are always iterating, meaning
that you know they are tweaking what they're doing. They're
investigating what else to do, They're experimenting, they're trying on
something different, or they're you know, they're they're tinkering with
it like you would tinker with an old car, like
(17:02):
those kinds of people. And I'm trying to get the
message out that like everybody can do that, you know,
that's available to everybody. We just didn't know because we
were so stuck in rigid linear performative you know, methodologies
that we forgot how to be humans, you know, I
mean you look at Ai. Ai was born from iteration,
(17:25):
cycles and cycles and cycles of iteration selected for you know,
the chatbots we see today were selected out of chatbots
that didn't iterate because those died and these lived. And
so we're no different, you know, as living, breathing, learning
beings here to learn, you know, you know, we it
is our birthright to iterate our way through problems and
(17:46):
to figure it out.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
So if we are in a work environment where it
is achieve it, make it happen, or else that it
seems like could trigger this this failure center, but also
trigger our fear centers or cortisol making us less likely
(18:11):
to be able to do the tasks. What would you
say to a boss who you know gets frustrated that employees,
you know, you give them a task and a week
goes by and it's like, have you done anything on that?
And it's like, depending on the type of person that
(18:34):
you're working with, either you have expectations of them that
are not being met which causes problems, or they don't
have the drive or the skill set or the ability
to ask questions. They've got that fear coming in. How
do we craft a work environment that turns fail you're
(19:01):
into an iteration.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Exactly. I think like two things. One is, anybody that
you see has risen in their lives to a level
of high success with effort, with merit does it with iteration.
So that's that's the blueprint. And you can reverse engineer that.
If you are early in your career and you're just
getting started, you can think, Okay, how can I iterate
(19:27):
on this? How can I iterate on that? Those kinds
of things, and even iterating on your workplace, because if
your workplace is truly truly toxic, then an iteration could
be getting a different workplace, you know. And then the
other thing I would say is if you're the manager,
and this is something we're actively practicing at my company.
Fresh try is asking your people to iterate instead of fail.
(19:52):
You know, Okay, so I want this next iteration. That
doesn't say that you failed at this. It just means like,
here's how I want you to improve it. Here's how
I want you to learn, here's how I want you
to tweak it. You know, I just had a conversation
this morning with somebody who is very intelligent and very
scientific and very perfectionistic about her work, and you know,
(20:14):
just saying, hey, this is what I need for this iteration,
that ooration. It's safe language that way, and it doesn't
mean that at the end of the year, we don't
look at what are your accomplishments, you know, what are
the things because we are professionals and we can perform
in our roles. It's just that right now we're overperforming,
we're over relying on performance, and we're under relying on
(20:37):
iteration and acknowledging that that's the way to real engagement,
to real you know, accomplishment and maximum productivity comes through
that iteration layer, not through continually beating somebody over the
head with performance measures.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Well, That's kind of what I was about to get
at is if you've got a culture where you've got
metrics that have to be met or either the system
is going to be penalized or the individual is going
to be penalized, it doesn't give a lot of flexibility
(21:17):
for error and for saying, like I tried it, it
didn't work, so I'm going to try X, Y, and
Z next because of what I learned in the first
experiment or the first engagement with a new employee or
(21:38):
whatever it may be. We all have opportunities to fail
all day long. I mean, do you think that humans
throughout the day fail more or succeed more?
Speaker 2 (21:52):
I think two things happen. There's two batches of people.
There's people who have a performance mindset, which in the
science shows that they will be demotivated, you know, because
of the venula. That's my that's my assumption there, and
that they can be prone to lying, cheating, and also
working less. So if you want somebody to work less
(22:14):
and to succeed less, then you have rigid goals and
you have performance measures that don't move, and you, you know,
force them to do it this one way and you
give them no flexibility or ability to adapt. Then there
is the the iterative mindset. You know, people who iterate
(22:34):
their way through because in every part of business, I
don't know about you, but like I have to iterate
multiple times a day on what I think I'm approaching something,
you know, what I'm creating in response to this, and
and you know, including researching more and things like that.
So those people again rise to the top. And the
more that they can get people under them and on
(22:56):
their teams to also think that way and also iterate,
the more productive they're going to be, the more responsive
they're going to be, the faster they will recover from challenge,
and the more creative they're going to you know, solve
their problems. So it's very serious business and to me,
you know, looking at it over and over again, the
same pattern. I was in a big company once and
(23:18):
I saw how, you know, the performance measures alone without iteration,
without the ability to adapt, created a lot of hostility,
a lot of burnout, a lot of gossip, you know,
a lot of throwing people under the bus that you know,
really bad behaviors from individuals. And then we still had
a twenty percent layoff every fall, you know, to make numbers,
(23:42):
and so this is the roughness of the game that
we're playing. But again, those that could adapt and iterate
their way through the year, like myself, rose to the
top and got promoted and did well and I didn't
know what was going on, then otherwise I would have shared,
you know, the knowledge then as well.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Looking at the people that get you know, kind of
systematically laid off in November, or the person that gets
a promotion, what are some fundamental things that these people
do not have in common?
Speaker 2 (24:21):
One of them is able to manage their hebnula and
the other one is not. So the ones that succeed
are the ones that and I'm not saying everybody who
gets laid off has not managed their hemenula. Well maybe
they did, and they're just supposed to be somewhere else,
you know, like that they're not in the right place,
you know, from like a god view, if you will.
(24:44):
But let's say that they were otherwise supposed to be
there or could be there right Those that stay there
in their right place are the ones who are able
to turn off and manage their hebenula, keep going, keep
iterating when other people will fail to do so, and
you know, lose their motivation and get stuck and get
(25:07):
lost and lose time wallowing in depression and feel disempowered
and feel shy and feel feel like they're the victim.
You know, So all of those things, it just splits
the population into in my experience.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it is one of those things.
We're all failing. It's just how much you're learning from it.
And if you're failing and other people are working on
projects with you, chances are they're making the same mistakes
that you are. It's just everybody is afraid to talk
about it. How did failure become such a taboo?
Speaker 2 (25:48):
I don't know, you know, I think that it's it's
human nature to want to succeed and have and be
seen as a success, you know. And so you know,
one thing I found in is that the Sun of
Freud was the one who, in the nineteen fifties created
the sort of modern marketing of you know, not feeling
(26:08):
good enough, and so all of the ads telling you
you're not pretty enough, you're not skinny enough, you're not
rich enough, you're not you know, smart enough, all that
stuff I think set the stage for this fear, this
terror around failing, especially in front of others.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Yeah, you know, I think about these strategies that can
help people to get into those motivational systems in a
way that is sustainable. I think so often we're trying
to feel better, when really, if we're just able to
(26:47):
feel better, whether those feelings are fear or sadness or
anger or frustration or love or happiness, if we're able
to feel it and name it, I think that we're
better able to then think our way through it. Because
(27:10):
if you know that you're frustrated and you're trying to
do a task, chances are maybe you could pick a
different time to do it, or you go, okay, I
am feeling frustrated, and you use that frustration to propel
you to tell you to propel you forwards so that
(27:30):
you can do things a little bit better. Kara tell
us about your book, Unstoppable Brain.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Yeah, so, Unstoppable Brain is the first book to cover
this science of the habenula. You know, we're lucky to
live in a time when this is coming out, and
I knew that normally science takes about seventeen years to
work its way through the system, and I was like,
I think we can I think we need it now.
You know, so I really wanted to do a good
(27:58):
job covering like how important, how significant this is, because
give it a few years, lindsay, and all of mental
health will turn on this fact, all of performance will
turn on this fact, All motivation stuff will turn on
this fact. Like people will be talking about this right
and left, because it's more significant than any other area
of the brain that we have, you know, so far
(28:19):
focused on as a culture, you know, and we as
a culture have have you know, motivation was first used
in the nineteen fifties. Goals was first used in the
nineteen forties after World War Two. So there's ways in which,
you know, the kind of collective psychology adopts certain truths
and then makes them their own and applies them. So
(28:41):
that was the whole book. That was the whole reason
for writing the book was to help people to A
know they had a benula, B know how serious to
take failure see, know how to turn failure off with iteration,
and really just free themselves up so that they could
do what they wanted to do and get out of
you know, the no do gap. I know what to do,
I just don't do it.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Why do you think this works? So much better than
kind of traditional things like counting calories and you know,
living on social media and going after the likes and
the followers, and even we haven't talked a lot about
the smart program. I love the smart program. Why do
(29:22):
they not work?
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Smart goles? Yeah? I think it works sometimes. You know,
in my research they work five percent of the time
for five percent of people, but for ninety five percent
of the people. Eventually, what happens is that some imperfect,
unexpected thing happens, and then a failure occurs in the brain.
I think my theory, Lindsay, is that if maybe we said, okay,
(29:47):
use a smart goal, but realize that it's very unlikely
to work exactly as you're planning, right, you know, even
though you created this perfect plane, right, you're perfect smaar t.
It's all checked off and everything, and then you go
live it and it doesn't look at all like that.
And so if we tell people this is going to happen,
you know, it's most likely gonna go sideways. Don't freak out,
(30:09):
you didn't fail, you know, just iterate. Then it could
be safe. But right now, the way it's practiced, it's
a sharp, pointy knife that cuts people eventually, you know,
because at some point it goes sideways and then they
don't know what to do. Then they blame themselves, then
they trigger demotivation, they trigger depression, and the whole thing
kind of cycles out, and the next thing you know,
(30:31):
they're just eating chips in front of a laptop or whatever,
or in front of a phone.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
It sounds like my kind of Thursday right there. You
know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
I'm sitting in small measure, Yeah, I know, I'm.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Sitting here right now, going like you can go to
the gym within the next hour, or you can sit
here and eat chips in front of in front of
a computer and watch Netflix. And it's you know, my
therapist always says, depending on the decisions that you make,
(31:04):
you're either going to feel one way when you walk
in here tomorrow or you're going to feel a different way.
Which way do you want to feel? You know, do
you want to walk in here going like you know?
And it may be one of those days where true
self care is I'm going to take a bath at
four o'clock in the afternoon and eat some cake and
(31:26):
go to bed at seven point thirty. That may be
true self care one day, but there is something too
turning off this part of your brain and being like
it's not a huge deal. But I went outside this
morning and that was an accomplishment. Or I went to
(31:49):
the gym even though it was thirty minutes, and that's
still an accomplishment. I kept my mouth closed when I
was angry, you know, that's an accomplished.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Or or or I ate the cake and I learned something,
you know, I learned that I don't want to do
that every night. Or I learned that I could eat
less of it because I threw away the rest of it,
or you know, like that there's just any any little
bit of harm. Reduction is what it's called, you know,
(32:20):
just just getting in your way, you know, stopping the
descent as soon as you possibly can, you know, so
that you can have some modicum of Okay, I've got
a grip on myself, you know. And the more you fail,
the more you fail, and so again, talking yourself out
of that failure, or having somebody who's really good at
(32:41):
talking you out of your failure is the way out,
you know, and and iterate, iterating out of that really dark,
deep place where you think all is lost. And the
more you recover. I find the more people recover, the
more they stand up, the stronger their legs get and
they can stand up faster, and they recognize when stand
up and their confidence comes in and that's how they
(33:03):
get empowered.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
I love it. Listeners, go and check out doctor Kyrabobinett
dot com. If you are someone who wants the autonomy
and power to change your life for the better and
yet feel stuck in the same old bad habits, patterns
and short term fixes. And if you think you sit
(33:26):
back and go I know what I should do, but
I can't get myself to actually do it. Unstoppable Brain
is for you, where doctor Kira. She's gonna teach you
more about the habenula, the possibly the most powerful controller
of behavior that we have ever found. So go pick
up a copy of Unstoppable Brains and check out doctor
(33:50):
Kyro Bobinett dot com. Doctor Kyra, thank you so much
for coming in and being a guest today on the
Lindsay Elmore Showing.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
All right, thank you
We know what we should do, we just don't actually
want to do it. So we're gonna talk about doctor
Chira's book Unstoppable Brain that d bunks today's over dependence
on performance driven tools such as calorie counting and smart
goals and likes and followers that attempt to motivate us
(00:24):
in to behavioral change. Doctor Kira Bobinette, Welcome to the
Lindsay Elmore Show.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Great to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I'm so excited to get to talk to you again.
You have a book called Unstoppable Brain, and you talk
about biological reasons that people are running on empty and
you talk about a structure in the brain called the habenula,
and you talk about how it is the brain's failure detector.
(01:00):
Talk to us about what this is, why it is important,
and how does it cause us to get stuck?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yeah? Yeah, So this is the brake pedal for all
behavior in the brain. This determines whether you do something
or you don't do something. And so it is the
definition of stuckness meant to keep us from taking life
threatening risks and bad decisions. And so what happens is
that when we try to do something different with our lives,
(01:31):
like let's say we're trying to improve our lives and
be more rested or be more well in general. This
is the part of the brain that if we judge
ourselves secretly, silently, or we feel like we're not doing
it perfectly or the right way, then this area of
the brain will become activated. And that's just like in
the break in the breaks in your car, you pump
(01:52):
the brakes, you're going to come to a screeching halt.
And so we don't know that we're doing this to ourselves.
But by thinking in terms terms of all or nothing,
black and white comparison thinking, I call these failure diseases.
You know, these kind of repeated patterns of how we
quote unquote fail how we just get disappointed, how we
(02:13):
get frustrated, those kinds of things. If we don't tend
to those thoughts, then they activate this area and we
lose all of our motivation to keep trying good things.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
So when you say failure, you mentioned frustration, I'm assuming
this is where you actually set out, you have a goal,
you don't achieve it. But what are some of the
more subtle ways that we quote fail throughout the day.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yeah, failure is something that we've been so avoidant of
it as a society that we haven't embraced all the
different forms that it can take in our brain, all
the different signals that we can perceive of as a failure.
You're you know, you could fail at doom scrolling something
as you know, silly as that can turn on this
part of the brain and kill your motivation. So we
(03:08):
just didn't know that this existed, and so therefore we're
not taking it seriously yet. So disappointment center is another
nickname for this in the science world. And you know,
the main thing is that anything that makes you feel bad, helpless, powerless,
like you're not doing it right, like it didn't go
exactly as planned, anything anything like that, Any thoughts like
(03:32):
that can turn this part on. And this part of
your brain is also responsible for, you know, negative self talk.
So anytime you're being hard on yourself, anytime you're judging
yourself or criticizing yourself inside your own head, this is
going to be the area that you're activating, and then
you're killing your motivation to do something good for yourself.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
It sounds like this is not a good structure, Like
why do we need this in our brains?
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Yeah, well, I mean it keeps us alive, you know,
it keeps us from touching the hot stove more than once.
It keeps us from making stupid decisions and keeps us
from making you know, risky decisions with our money or
our relationships or even our health, you know. And so
it is a good thing to have this kind of
more conservative area of the brain that's like no, no, no,
you know, like think about it, you know, don't do that,
(04:24):
don't just like, you know, throw caution to the wind.
But again, when it comes to good stuff, it's also
stopping us. It's also the brake pedal. And so I
think that's just something that people we just didn't know
until now.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Where is this located in our brain?
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Yeah, I recently talked to a habenula researcher, and it's
a very small community of habenula researchers in the world, right,
but this is like one of the only women, I think,
And she said, you know, our joke in our circles,
it's a nerdy joke, is you know, the whole cortex,
all the other brain matter is just there as padding
for the habenula, meaning that it is at this center,
(05:03):
the very center of the brain in the midbrain, and
so their joke is like everything else is just kind
of like a pillow around this area to keep it safe.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Okay, Okay, So it's not like in the limbic system,
the cortex, the here, the there, It's it's kind of
is it diffuse or is it like, oh, it's as Yeah, all.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Of those, all of those come into this hub, and
so therefore it has control over those functions. It controls
your mood, you know. It is responsible for depression, anxiety.
It's responsible for addiction and withdraw symptoms from addiction. It's
responsible for your motivation, your dopamine system, your serotonin system,
(05:52):
your melatonin system. All of these things are all centralizing
to this little, tiny half centimeter double like little peace
in the middle of your brain.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Okay, So how do we care for this area of
our brain if it's so important in protecting us and
preventing us from making irrational and stupid decisions, How do
we care for this area of our brain?
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Yeah? I think that the main thing that we're dealing
with now in our society is that there's so much
information flooding our brain like no other generation before us
has had to deal with the amount of information and
the amount of decision making and discernment that our brains
have to these days, and it's exhausting. I mean, people
are tired, they're burned out because we didn't know about
(06:44):
this area of the brain. And now the modern skill
is to a notice when it's on. So things like procrastination,
things like feeling badly, things like feeling unmotivated, those are
all signs and symptoms that this area the brain is on,
because it turns on without us knowing it, right, because
we kind of just have our thoughts and we don't
(07:06):
realize that our thoughts triggered it, and then we're like, oops,
I'm procrastinating. Why am I procrastinating? So the modern skill
is number one, noticing those symptoms number two, then secondarily
doing everything you can to hunt where you might have
failed or felt disappointed or frustrated or disempowered, and then
turning it off deliberately, meaning that you either get support
(07:29):
you know, through peers or friends or things like that,
or you go to therapy or you do something good
for your body, you know, anything that can shut it off,
because you are basically saying what matters is that I
didn't fail tell a different story, have a different way
of thinking about it. It's called reframing in psychology, where
(07:51):
you know, I thought about it this way, and now
I'm thinking about it this way. And the more you
can think that you cannot fail at something and you
have failed it's something, the more protected you are from
this mechanism.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Is it dangerous for us to turn off this function
of the hebenula?
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Yeah? I think what we're seeing in addiction medicine is that,
and also in depression is that once you overstimulate it,
like you trigger it, trigger it, trigger, it starts to shrink,
they think. And that's just like the breaks in your car.
If it starts, your brake pads wear out, then you
don't got brakes, and your brakes go out, and then
you do reckless things unopposed. So when you shrink, you know,
(08:34):
people with shrunken hemenula are usually depressed. They are impulsive,
they are addicted to things, and they feel out of control.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Ah ah. And if somebody has a shrunken hebenula, are
there things that we can do to expand it again?
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Yeah? And what's so interesting is that there was a
study on bariactric surgery patients and they weren't looking for this,
but they found in their brain scans after about six
months post surgery that their habenula had returned to a
normal size, but that because they were probably addicted to
food and maybe other things in the beginning, they had
(09:14):
shrunken habenula probably depressed all those things that they were experiencing.
Depression is a symptom in my opinion, it's not a disease.
It's something that is a symptom of, Hey, my hebenula
is on, I need to do something about it. And
now that we know, we can put these pieces together.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
What do you think depression is a symptom of failure?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Yeah, I think I failed at something. I fail at
being like the other kids. I fail at, you know,
being the perfect mom. I fail at you know, I
have some expectation of where I should be in my career,
or my relationship should be a certain way, or I
should be a certain way, or gosh, I shouldn't you know,
watch so much TV shows and things like that, like
(10:00):
just those little life failures, and then they turn on
and because you are depressed, you are depressed, meaning that
the more depressed you are, the more depressive symptoms you're
going to experience because you can't find your way out
of the failure free fall.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
If we're in this failure free fall, is it only
leading to depression or can it also lead to emotional
outbursts or anxiety or antidonia you know, I mean they
can manifest Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Yeah, it's a long list sleep disorders. So you know,
the habenula is also in charge of your circadian rhythm,
particularly the sort of non rem sleep where you're recovering.
And it also drives emotional eating and stress eating and
also stress itself, chronic stress. Okay, And so all of
(10:56):
the things that we in our society think are problematic
around our mental health and our lack of well being
seem to pivot or center around the habenula's actions. And
so that's why I say that the modern skill is
learning how to figure out where your thought you failed
and then to find a way to you know, believe otherwise,
(11:19):
and to talk yourself out of it or get yourself
out of it, let it go. Even some people can
do that.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
I think a lot of people are afraid of failure
and afraid to talk about failure. How do you encourage,
you know, parents to talk to children about failures, spouses
to talk about failures, and how do we talk about
failure more effectively in the workplace.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Yeah, I feel like what's working for people that I
talk to is failure is an illusion. It's a concept,
not a reality, because you know, you cannot fail at
living your life. You cannot fail it being you. This
is what I tell children, is where I tell teenagers
and young people especially because they are, you know, facing
(12:05):
a world where they put so much pressure on themselves.
You know, we have these kids performing at like nine ten.
You know. It was this very very successful executive and
I had a conversation the other day and her son
threw up at summer camp because it was soccer and
he was he was he had so much performance anxiety
that he had to go home for the day because
(12:25):
he was just so high, strong and nauseous. Right, And
so you know, we have to protect our children and
kind of pad them with, Hey, you know, you cannot
fail at this. You know, even if you don't do
well at soccer camp or whatever, maybe soccer is not
your thing, Life will guide you to your thing. You
(12:46):
are an athlete, regardless of soccer or no soccer. So
those kinds of things. I think if parents know about
this mechanism in their child's brain, let alone what they
should do for themselves. You know, they can help protect
their children as they're going into these performative environments like school,
like sports, like any skill that your child is endeavoring.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
I mean, I think a lot of a lot of
children and a lot of adults are going into either
a literal game, a sports game, or kind of the
game of life where they're in some sort of working environment,
a parenting environment that's challenging, caring for an elderly parent,
(13:29):
and a lot of people feel like they're doing all
the right things and yet they're living on the edge
of burnout all the time, sometimes for years. Where does
this emotional exhaustion arise from and how can people overcome it?
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah? Two things expectations and comparisons. You know, we get
this idea with media, social media that can think of
how perfect we need to be, and we even take
that into our home communities and schools and religious organizations
and feel like we're not measuring up. And you know,
I love the phrase giving yourself grace, like that should
(14:12):
be endless grace. You know, that shouldn't just be in
that moment, it should just say like, hey, you know,
nobody's perfect. Literally, no matter what they look like, there's
nobody who's perfect. I've met them all, you know, supermodels
and famous people and all these people that people look
up to, and everybody suffers, and so realizing that, you know,
(14:33):
realizing that you're doing the best you can and loving
your effort, you know, as a caregiver. You know, my
mom took care of my grandmother for ten years in
her home, and she was burned out and she was
exhausted because she was also raising my little sister. And
I just said to her one day, I was like,
wellm you're doing everything right. And I could just feel
(14:54):
the exhale because she put pressure on herself. Now, remember
the hbanola is the source of negatives off talk, So
her hebenula is going, you know, I'm failing at carrying,
I'm failing at parenting. I'm failing and failing and failing.
And you know, again, burnout is basically you know what
you should do, you're just not doing it. And that's
because your herbnula is on right. So the ease come.
(15:17):
The ease comes from turning it off, like getting good
at turning it off, and in my family were an
active conversation around this, Okay, where's your track it? Where's
your hebenula on? Oh how do you turn it off? Well,
I think I could do this, or I think I
could believe this, or I could let go of the
idea of the perfection or my expectation. Like that kind
(15:41):
of mental flexibility, which recently was shown to be the
definition of intelligence, is cognitive flexibility. The mental flexibility, the
adaptation that I call it iterative mindset, you know, the
ability to iterate your way through life so that you
are protected from failure.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
So if someone is living in a mindset where they
just think that they're failing at everything, you know, it's
great to be like just turn it off, But what
are some ways that you encourage people with some like
(16:21):
really down to earth, meaningful lifestyle interventions that can take
them from this mindset of I'm not going to try
because I'm going to fail to. Even if it doesn't
turn out the way that I want it to, it
doesn't mean that it's a failure.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Yeah. And I found in my research that people who
you know are good at this are always iterating, meaning
that you know they are tweaking what they're doing. They're
investigating what else to do, They're experimenting, they're trying on
something different, or they're you know, they're they're tinkering with
it like you would tinker with an old car, like
(17:02):
those kinds of people. And I'm trying to get the
message out that like everybody can do that, you know,
that's available to everybody. We just didn't know because we
were so stuck in rigid linear performative you know, methodologies
that we forgot how to be humans, you know, I
mean you look at Ai. Ai was born from iteration,
(17:25):
cycles and cycles and cycles of iteration selected for you know,
the chatbots we see today were selected out of chatbots
that didn't iterate because those died and these lived. And
so we're no different, you know, as living, breathing, learning
beings here to learn, you know, you know, we it
is our birthright to iterate our way through problems and
(17:46):
to figure it out.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
So if we are in a work environment where it
is achieve it, make it happen, or else that it
seems like could trigger this this failure center, but also
trigger our fear centers or cortisol making us less likely
(18:11):
to be able to do the tasks. What would you
say to a boss who you know gets frustrated that employees,
you know, you give them a task and a week
goes by and it's like, have you done anything on that?
And it's like, depending on the type of person that
(18:34):
you're working with, either you have expectations of them that
are not being met which causes problems, or they don't
have the drive or the skill set or the ability
to ask questions. They've got that fear coming in. How
do we craft a work environment that turns fail you're
(19:01):
into an iteration.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Exactly. I think like two things. One is, anybody that
you see has risen in their lives to a level
of high success with effort, with merit does it with iteration.
So that's that's the blueprint. And you can reverse engineer that.
If you are early in your career and you're just
getting started, you can think, Okay, how can I iterate
(19:27):
on this? How can I iterate on that? Those kinds
of things, and even iterating on your workplace, because if
your workplace is truly truly toxic, then an iteration could
be getting a different workplace, you know. And then the
other thing I would say is if you're the manager,
and this is something we're actively practicing at my company.
Fresh try is asking your people to iterate instead of fail.
(19:52):
You know, Okay, so I want this next iteration. That
doesn't say that you failed at this. It just means like,
here's how I want you to improve it. Here's how
I want you to learn, here's how I want you
to tweak it. You know, I just had a conversation
this morning with somebody who is very intelligent and very
scientific and very perfectionistic about her work, and you know,
(20:14):
just saying, hey, this is what I need for this iteration,
that ooration. It's safe language that way, and it doesn't
mean that at the end of the year, we don't
look at what are your accomplishments, you know, what are
the things because we are professionals and we can perform
in our roles. It's just that right now we're overperforming,
we're over relying on performance, and we're under relying on
(20:37):
iteration and acknowledging that that's the way to real engagement,
to real you know, accomplishment and maximum productivity comes through
that iteration layer, not through continually beating somebody over the
head with performance measures.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Well, That's kind of what I was about to get
at is if you've got a culture where you've got
metrics that have to be met or either the system
is going to be penalized or the individual is going
to be penalized, it doesn't give a lot of flexibility
(21:17):
for error and for saying, like I tried it, it
didn't work, so I'm going to try X, Y, and
Z next because of what I learned in the first
experiment or the first engagement with a new employee or
(21:38):
whatever it may be. We all have opportunities to fail
all day long. I mean, do you think that humans
throughout the day fail more or succeed more?
Speaker 2 (21:52):
I think two things happen. There's two batches of people.
There's people who have a performance mindset, which in the
science shows that they will be demotivated, you know, because
of the venula. That's my that's my assumption there, and
that they can be prone to lying, cheating, and also
working less. So if you want somebody to work less
(22:14):
and to succeed less, then you have rigid goals and
you have performance measures that don't move, and you, you know,
force them to do it this one way and you
give them no flexibility or ability to adapt. Then there
is the the iterative mindset. You know, people who iterate
(22:34):
their way through because in every part of business, I
don't know about you, but like I have to iterate
multiple times a day on what I think I'm approaching something,
you know, what I'm creating in response to this, and
and you know, including researching more and things like that.
So those people again rise to the top. And the
more that they can get people under them and on
(22:56):
their teams to also think that way and also iterate,
the more productive they're going to be, the more responsive
they're going to be, the faster they will recover from challenge,
and the more creative they're going to you know, solve
their problems. So it's very serious business and to me,
you know, looking at it over and over again, the
same pattern. I was in a big company once and
(23:18):
I saw how, you know, the performance measures alone without iteration,
without the ability to adapt, created a lot of hostility,
a lot of burnout, a lot of gossip, you know,
a lot of throwing people under the bus that you know,
really bad behaviors from individuals. And then we still had
a twenty percent layoff every fall, you know, to make numbers,
(23:42):
and so this is the roughness of the game that
we're playing. But again, those that could adapt and iterate
their way through the year, like myself, rose to the
top and got promoted and did well and I didn't
know what was going on, then otherwise I would have shared,
you know, the knowledge then as well.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Looking at the people that get you know, kind of
systematically laid off in November, or the person that gets
a promotion, what are some fundamental things that these people
do not have in common?
Speaker 2 (24:21):
One of them is able to manage their hebnula and
the other one is not. So the ones that succeed
are the ones that and I'm not saying everybody who
gets laid off has not managed their hemenula. Well maybe
they did, and they're just supposed to be somewhere else,
you know, like that they're not in the right place,
you know, from like a god view, if you will.
(24:44):
But let's say that they were otherwise supposed to be
there or could be there right Those that stay there
in their right place are the ones who are able
to turn off and manage their hebenula, keep going, keep
iterating when other people will fail to do so, and
you know, lose their motivation and get stuck and get
(25:07):
lost and lose time wallowing in depression and feel disempowered
and feel shy and feel feel like they're the victim.
You know, So all of those things, it just splits
the population into in my experience.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it is one of those things.
We're all failing. It's just how much you're learning from it.
And if you're failing and other people are working on
projects with you, chances are they're making the same mistakes
that you are. It's just everybody is afraid to talk
about it. How did failure become such a taboo?
Speaker 2 (25:48):
I don't know, you know, I think that it's it's
human nature to want to succeed and have and be
seen as a success, you know. And so you know,
one thing I found in is that the Sun of
Freud was the one who, in the nineteen fifties created
the sort of modern marketing of you know, not feeling
(26:08):
good enough, and so all of the ads telling you
you're not pretty enough, you're not skinny enough, you're not
rich enough, you're not you know, smart enough, all that
stuff I think set the stage for this fear, this
terror around failing, especially in front of others.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Yeah, you know, I think about these strategies that can
help people to get into those motivational systems in a
way that is sustainable. I think so often we're trying
to feel better, when really, if we're just able to
(26:47):
feel better, whether those feelings are fear or sadness or
anger or frustration or love or happiness, if we're able
to feel it and name it, I think that we're
better able to then think our way through it. Because
(27:10):
if you know that you're frustrated and you're trying to
do a task, chances are maybe you could pick a
different time to do it, or you go, okay, I
am feeling frustrated, and you use that frustration to propel
you to tell you to propel you forwards so that
(27:30):
you can do things a little bit better. Kara tell
us about your book, Unstoppable Brain.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Yeah, so, Unstoppable Brain is the first book to cover
this science of the habenula. You know, we're lucky to
live in a time when this is coming out, and
I knew that normally science takes about seventeen years to
work its way through the system, and I was like,
I think we can I think we need it now.
You know, so I really wanted to do a good
(27:58):
job covering like how important, how significant this is, because
give it a few years, lindsay, and all of mental
health will turn on this fact, all of performance will
turn on this fact, All motivation stuff will turn on
this fact. Like people will be talking about this right
and left, because it's more significant than any other area
of the brain that we have, you know, so far
(28:19):
focused on as a culture, you know, and we as
a culture have have you know, motivation was first used
in the nineteen fifties. Goals was first used in the
nineteen forties after World War Two. So there's ways in which,
you know, the kind of collective psychology adopts certain truths
and then makes them their own and applies them. So
(28:41):
that was the whole book. That was the whole reason
for writing the book was to help people to A
know they had a benula, B know how serious to
take failure see, know how to turn failure off with iteration,
and really just free themselves up so that they could
do what they wanted to do and get out of
you know, the no do gap. I know what to do,
I just don't do it.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Why do you think this works? So much better than
kind of traditional things like counting calories and you know,
living on social media and going after the likes and
the followers, and even we haven't talked a lot about
the smart program. I love the smart program. Why do
(29:22):
they not work?
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Smart goles? Yeah? I think it works sometimes. You know,
in my research they work five percent of the time
for five percent of people, but for ninety five percent
of the people. Eventually, what happens is that some imperfect,
unexpected thing happens, and then a failure occurs in the brain.
I think my theory, Lindsay, is that if maybe we said, okay,
(29:47):
use a smart goal, but realize that it's very unlikely
to work exactly as you're planning, right, you know, even
though you created this perfect plane, right, you're perfect smaar t.
It's all checked off and everything, and then you go
live it and it doesn't look at all like that.
And so if we tell people this is going to happen,
you know, it's most likely gonna go sideways. Don't freak out,
(30:09):
you didn't fail, you know, just iterate. Then it could
be safe. But right now, the way it's practiced, it's
a sharp, pointy knife that cuts people eventually, you know,
because at some point it goes sideways and then they
don't know what to do. Then they blame themselves, then
they trigger demotivation, they trigger depression, and the whole thing
kind of cycles out, and the next thing you know,
(30:31):
they're just eating chips in front of a laptop or whatever,
or in front of a phone.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
It sounds like my kind of Thursday right there. You
know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
I'm sitting in small measure, Yeah, I know, I'm.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Sitting here right now, going like you can go to
the gym within the next hour, or you can sit
here and eat chips in front of in front of
a computer and watch Netflix. And it's you know, my
therapist always says, depending on the decisions that you make,
(31:04):
you're either going to feel one way when you walk
in here tomorrow or you're going to feel a different way.
Which way do you want to feel? You know, do
you want to walk in here going like you know?
And it may be one of those days where true
self care is I'm going to take a bath at
four o'clock in the afternoon and eat some cake and
(31:26):
go to bed at seven point thirty. That may be
true self care one day, but there is something too
turning off this part of your brain and being like
it's not a huge deal. But I went outside this
morning and that was an accomplishment. Or I went to
(31:49):
the gym even though it was thirty minutes, and that's
still an accomplishment. I kept my mouth closed when I
was angry, you know, that's an accomplished.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Or or or I ate the cake and I learned something,
you know, I learned that I don't want to do
that every night. Or I learned that I could eat
less of it because I threw away the rest of it,
or you know, like that there's just any any little
bit of harm. Reduction is what it's called, you know,
(32:20):
just just getting in your way, you know, stopping the
descent as soon as you possibly can, you know, so
that you can have some modicum of Okay, I've got
a grip on myself, you know. And the more you fail,
the more you fail, and so again, talking yourself out
of that failure, or having somebody who's really good at
(32:41):
talking you out of your failure is the way out,
you know, and and iterate, iterating out of that really dark,
deep place where you think all is lost. And the
more you recover. I find the more people recover, the
more they stand up, the stronger their legs get and
they can stand up faster, and they recognize when stand
up and their confidence comes in and that's how they
(33:03):
get empowered.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
I love it. Listeners, go and check out doctor Kyrabobinett
dot com. If you are someone who wants the autonomy
and power to change your life for the better and
yet feel stuck in the same old bad habits, patterns
and short term fixes. And if you think you sit
(33:26):
back and go I know what I should do, but
I can't get myself to actually do it. Unstoppable Brain
is for you, where doctor Kira. She's gonna teach you
more about the habenula, the possibly the most powerful controller
of behavior that we have ever found. So go pick
up a copy of Unstoppable Brains and check out doctor
(33:50):
Kyro Bobinett dot com. Doctor Kyra, thank you so much
for coming in and being a guest today on the
Lindsay Elmore Showing.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
All right, thank you
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