EXPERIENCE 202 | Rick Gardner - Bull Rider, Roofer, Rocket Scientist, Professional Walleye Fisherman, Serial Entrepreneur, Venture Hub Founder, and EOS Implementer - The LoCo Experience

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Rick Gardner is an EOSimplementer in our Northern

(00:02):
Colorado region.
He grew up in Leadville,Colorado, and had his dreams of
a long professional bull ridingcareer ended by injury.
He's gone on to a series ofinteresting professional and
entrepreneurial ventures, andhis previous chapter was
Founding and Growing a VentureAccelerator and Investment Hub,
aligned with the University ofBuffalo in New York, which
served over 150 companies andraised over 100 million in

(00:23):
capital.
Disclaimer, we forgot to talkabout the Professional Walleye
Fisherman chapter.
Enjoy.
Let's have some fun.
Welcome to the LoCo ExperiencePodcast.
On this show, you'll get to knowbusiness and community leaders
from all around NorthernColorado and beyond.

(00:46):
Our guests share their stories,business stories, life stories,
stories of triumph and oftragedy, and through it all,
you'll be inspired andentertained.
These conversations are real andraw and no topics are off
limits.
So pop in a breath mint and getready to meet our latest guest.
Welcome back to the LocoExperience Podcast.

(01:08):
My guest today is Rick Gardnerand Rick is an EOS implementer.
He's an inventor, a serialentrepreneur, and the creator of
the iHub accelerator andinvestment fund in upstate New
York.
And then he moved here.
Why'd you move here, Rick?
Well, I'm from here.
You're from here?
Yeah, I went out there.
I remember that.
Yeah, that's right.
I went out there just for thatopportunity.

(01:30):
And then for family reasons, Icame back to Colorado.
Yeah.
Yep.
Um, where should we start?
Like, uh, let's, tell me aboutyour first invention.
Let's go there.
Um, let's.
Even if it didn't pan out.
Like, even if you were ateenager and never went
anywhere.
Yeah.
Um, I had a lot of inventionswhen I was a kid.
Um, I guess my first realinvention was after I graduated

(01:52):
from college.
Um, I went to work at, um,Lockheed Martin.
Okay.
And, um, there was a, a rocketcalled the, the Titan rocket.
And it had, um, this problemcalled Pogo, where it would
explode after it left the launchpad.
Okay.
And so I worked on an inventionto, uh, mitigate that.

(02:14):
That was like the Titan right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, you know, so that was kindof my first post college
invention.
Um, and then I went to HewlettPackard.
Well, what, like, you put ananti explosion device on it?
Well, it's, it's kind oftechnical, but, um, basically I
changed the natural frequency ofthe, of the propellant feed
line.
Oh.
Which prevented the, the, uh, Itwas creating like a harmonic

(02:36):
imbalance virtually.
Exactly.
Yeah, exactly.
Tuning fork done wrong.
Right, right, exactly.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Very intuitive of you.
I'm, uh, I like to say I'm aninch deep and a mile wide.
Like, I don't know much aboutmuch.
Yeah.
But I can understand thingsfaster than a lot of people.
Yeah, yeah.
A little bit.
Yeah, so.
But only that deep.
It's over my head if we keepgoing.
Yeah, I'm, I'm similar.

(02:57):
So, so lucky to say this.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Let's have him do some morestuff or?
Yeah.
And so, you know, I, um, Iworked on a lot of really cool
things.
Um, the Cassini spacecraft thatwent to Saturn had a similar
problem.
Okay.
They found it just before, um,they were going to launch the
vehicle.
Okay.
So 30, 30 days before, um, theyfound this instability in the

(03:21):
test pad.
Okay.
So they asked me to figure outhow to fix it.
Because if we missed the launchwindow, uh, for the trip to
Saturn, we would have had towait.
Yeah.
17 years later, you're likeready to go again.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Yeah.
It was a similar, similarproblem.
So I kind of became the de factocombustion stability guy.
Hmm.
Interesting.
So, um, yeah.

(03:42):
It could have worked in, uh,like racing at formula one or
something like that.
Right.
Instead too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause I've, I've, that's a lotof the, like how, how fuels and,
you know, And mechanics react atthe extreme.
Exactly.
Is really the secret in racingand rockets, probably.
Right, yep.
Yeah, and with rockets and even,you know, race cars,

(04:05):
everything's, everything's rightat the limit, right?
So, anything that, there's not alot of margin for error.
Yeah, yeah.
Let's, uh, let's shift to whatyou're doing now.
We'll talk more about unfoldingyour journey, but, uh, EOS for
those that are uninitiated, uh,on the entrepreneur's operating
system.
I know that much.
Yeah.
Um, do you want to set thestage?
I've had a, I think you'reprobably our fourth.

(04:26):
Okay.
EOS implementer on right at theend of our fourth or start of
our fifth season here.
So, uh, it's something I'mendlessly curious in and I think
people need to know more aboutit.
Yeah.
So.
You know, I, I mean, the bottomline for what EOS is, is it
helps get a group of people frompoint A to point B in the most
efficient and effective waypossible.

(04:47):
Okay.
And it sounds simple, but thefirst question is, where is
point B?
Yeah.
Right?
It's kind of hard to geteverybody to go in the same
direction if you're not surewhere point B is.
Yeah, yeah.
Right.
And so.
You know, that's, that's reallywhat it's about is getting all
the human energy in anorganization to go in the right
direction.

(05:07):
And in order to do that,everybody in the organization
has to share the vision forwhere point B is and the plan
for getting to point B.
Yeah, yeah.
And so, you know, it's really,that's kind of the simplified
view of it.
But, um, you know, what EOS isbased on is six key components
of any business.
And it turns out that, you know,about 5 percent of businesses

(05:31):
are really good at those six keycomponents.
Okay.
And they're, those are the greatcompanies.
And, you know, about 95 percentof the companies are only good
in a few of those keycomponents, and they're kind of
successful in spite ofthemselves.
Yeah, yeah.
So it's really well in 40percent of the companies are
kind of bad at some of them.
They'll be gone in five years.
Yeah Yeah, yeah, and and andit's really just you know the

(05:54):
other thing that happens to withentrepreneurial organizations is
we start them and You know, wekind of get things going based
on our our intuition, right?
Yeah, yeah, and we don't finduntil we get to a certain number
of employees that our intuitionis no longer gonna carry the day
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and you met my small teamhere, you know, I've got just

(06:15):
enough, you know Communicationand vision to keep them on track
ish But if we got much biggermuch more complicated, it would
be that much harder Yeah, andand a lot of times what happens
is is that That kind of tends tocreep up on us that we've grown
to a point where, um, you know,it's, it's beyond our previous

(06:35):
methodology.
But also driving ownership,discipline and accountability.
Yeah.
You have to know where you'regoing.
Everybody has to be aligned withthat.
You have to have the right team.
You know, and you have to do itwith discipline and
accountability.
It's funny, I, I told this storyfor years before I ever heard of
EOS, uh, but it was kind of thesame theme in that, um, have you

(06:57):
ever been to Colorado Springsarea, 11 mile reservoir?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So, Jill and I got caught up bya Sleet and a huge wind and to
make any progress, we had to bepointed exactly into the wind
and row at the same exact time,because if we were off kilter on
the road, we just sat there.
If we turned sideways, we wentback 50 yards, and I use that as

(07:19):
a example of how teams canreally be more powerful
together, right?
If you had eight rowers on eachside of an old Viking boat, and
one guy was goofing off, right?
You would know it.
Right.
And that's what, right.
And that's what maybe helps youfind that guy goofing off That's
right.
That's right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That one guy can make the, theboat go in circles.

(07:39):
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's, it's really about allof those things coming together.
And, you know, the other partthat's pretty powerful about it
is, you know, when we talk aboutthe six key components mm-hmm
Um, it's tough to get to theroot cause of issues in a
business.
if you're not strong orstrengthening those six key

(08:01):
components.
So a lot of things could bemisdiagnosed.
For example, if you think youhave a people issue, but your,
your plan isn't clear oraccountability isn't clear, it's
really tough to say whether ornot you have a people issue.
Yeah.
Right.
Interesting thing.
Yeah.
If you don't have ownership andaccountability.
Yeah.
So Reflecting on a conversationI had with Alma here recently,

(08:25):
um, she's been in the operationsmanager role for, I don't know,
16 months or something likethat.
And, you know, really, um, cameinto the role with a vision of
making it easier for LOCO togrow and have that good
experience for the members andstuff.
And, and we've improved that.
And, um, We're not growing asfast as we maybe have in the

(08:45):
past.
So she was like, Oh, maybe I'mdoing, maybe I'm the problem,
you know?
And I was like, I don't thinkso.
You know, I'm pretty confidentif I had a 40 year old instead
of a 22 year old.
Like we'd still be stumblingover the same challenges.
Yeah.
Um, you know, let's call itintuition, but that's the way it
is.
Well, and that's a good sign ifshe's, if she's reflecting like
that.
Yeah, for sure.

(09:06):
No, I mean on the GWC, she'seasy.
You know, whether we have it inthe right seat, for sure.
We don't know necessarily.
So I guess maybe can we startwith the, what are those six,
uh, areas?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Turn the lens on.
Yeah.
And it's, it's none of it'srocket science.
It's all, it's pretty commonsense, right?
But, uh, the first one is thevision component and that's kind

(09:28):
of as it sounds, you know, um,making sure that you have
clarity on your vision andeverybody in the organization is
100 percent on the same pagewith that vision.
We have a special way or aunique way to define vision
because vision is kind of anoverused term everywhere.
Everybody has a differentdefinition.
We have a pretty specificdefinition of what a vision is,

(09:49):
but that's the first component.
The second component is thepeople component.
And like you were talking aboutearlier, Um, it's not only
having the right people inthere, you know, the right
people to fit your culture, butalso the right seats for those
people.
And, um, You know, that's a veryimportant thing and getting the
vision component strong and thepeople components strong leads

(10:10):
you to the next component.
And that's really the datacomponent.
And that's understanding whatare the fundamental things that
are driving your business.
What are the things we should belooking for?
It's kind of like the dashboardalmost.
Right.
Right.
Like what, if you were going tohave a bill of dashboard, what
needs to be on there?
Right.
And you know, I see twoextremes.
Um, some companies don't gatherany data.
Yeah.
Right.
Others gather too much data, andthey choke on it, and they're

(10:33):
not sure what's important, soeverything's important, right?
And so, but it turns out ifyou're good with the vision, the
people, and the data component,then you're pretty, you're
starting to get pretty good atidentifying issues, and that's
the next component.
Okay.
Is, is the issues component, andit's creating a transparent
organization that's comfortablebringing up issues.
But it's also really good atprioritizing and diagnosing,

(10:56):
getting to root cause and makingthose issues go away.
The next component is theprocess component and it's
really putting that structure inplace in the organization so
that, um, you do things theright way every time.
Yeah.
And you know, it's, again, kindof that entrepreneurial
approach.
I haven't really thought of itthis way before, but I'm almost

(11:16):
thinking about like a race car.
Yeah.
Uh, right.
Like the people.
It might be the driver, it's thehead mechanic and stuff.
The issues is, why does thiskeep breaking when we do this?
You know, the process is kind oflike, okay, in turn three, if we
set up the drift early Right.
And, you know, you know, hitthe, hit the throttle right at
halfway point.
Right.

(11:36):
We'll come out of it perfect.
Right.
And, and, and, you know, whathappens too is, is as your
organization grows, You know,um, process isn't that is, isn't
as important when you have oneor two or three or four people
in your organization.
But then you start hiringpeople, you've got, maybe you've
got a dozen or a couple dozen.
And now that becomes an issue,right?

(11:58):
Because you no longerintuitively know your processes.
They kind of have to bedocumented and simplified,
right?
Yeah, and then you lose threeout of those first four fully
trained people.
And some of the new people don'treally have the right tools.
Process in mind anymore.
And so unless it's documented,you can lose a lot.
Yeah.
And, and, you know, I, I reallypreach this simplified approach,
which is, you know, what are theseven or eight core processes

(12:21):
for your business?
What are the few steps that arerequired to do it?
Right.
So kind of a 20, 80 approach, 20percent of the steps will get
you 80 percent of the value.
Trying to get a hundred percentof everything documented to get
you a.
700 page SOP that nobody reads.
Yeah.
I like it.
And so, you know, once you startstrengthening all of those,

(12:42):
then, um, the, the, uh, tractioncomponent is the sixth component
and that's really driving thatownership and accountability
throughout the organization.
And so.
So, really working on all six inparallel is, is the key to, to
really making progress.
Um, what got you excited aboutEOS?
Is this part of your ownjourney?

(13:04):
Did you use it in some of yourcompanies?
I did.
And, um, when I first readTraction, I think what, what
really appealed to me is itreflected my leadership and
management style.
Mm.
And.
And, and it was so simple,simply described and, and

(13:24):
intuitively easy to understandit's excuse me.
It's very similar to everythingI've done throughout my career
in a much more elegantly definedway.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so I thought it was verypowerful.
I wonder if it's from that.
I remember from an early locothink tank chapter meeting, um,
Todd Gilson, I think he was thequote master.

(13:46):
But, uh, Complicated isinteresting.
Simple gets done.
Yeah.
I don't know if that was, uh,from the traction book or
something similar to that, butthat's kind of the theme you're
talking about here is it is.
And, you know, being a, anengineer and a designer too, um,
you know, the simplest designsare the most difficult to
achieve, right?

(14:06):
A lazy engineer makes verycomplicated designs, right?
And so there's a lot of, there'sbeauty in that simplification
and elegance.
And.
Because it's, it's, it's sosimple to understand, people,
um, get the illusion that it'salso simple, simple to
implement.
Yeah, yeah.
Right, and that's where thechallenge lies.

(14:28):
But conceptually, it's very easyto comprehend and understand.
It all makes sense.
Yeah.
It's not the management du jourthat, that we all read about,
right?
So, in your role as a, as a EOSimplementer, like, what's that
look like, I guess, from, fromyour shoes?
You You connect with businesses,mostly 1, 2, 4 million dollar

(14:48):
businesses that want to be 2, 4,10, 20 million dollar
businesses?
Yeah.
And you know, it's, you know,the revenue is part of it, but
really when things start tobreak, it's by number of
employees.
Okay.
So when businesses get to around10 employees, that's when things
start to break.
So that's kind of the entrypoint.
Okay.

(15:08):
Yep.
That was actually my, myoriginal question.
Entree to the market with locothink tank was what we called
thinkers and it was mostly fiveto twenty employees Yep, partly
because when when you get uparound eight was what I was used
to tell people.
Yeah, you know the More thaneight can't really be managed by
one person, right?
You know and and unless they'rea superb manager and then are

(15:29):
they still doing the otherthings they need to do, right?
Yeah, and so that's where thingsstart to break is, you know when
they get into that range and Buta lot of times, you know, maybe
they'll get to 20 or 30employees and then they hit some
sort of a ceiling and they'renot sure why.
And, you know, that's where Ican come in and help figure out
what, where we might, where wemight have some problems and how

(15:50):
we might be able to help.
And what kind of training do theimplementers have?
Because EOS has become a bigYeah.
Oh, a big I don't know how many,is there a thousand implementers
around the country yet?
No, there's not that many.
I think there's probably, um,worldwide, probably 700.
Okay.
Okay.
So it's not saturated by anymeans.
No, no.
In that market.
But no, but they have developeda big platform training program

(16:12):
at this point.
Yeah.
And it's, it's really the, youknow, the prerequisite is, you
know, a lot of experience as anentrepreneur.
Have you done something?
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
Okay.
No, you can't just become an EOSimplementer because you think it
would be fun.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.
And so they have a pretty severeor pretty rigorous vetting
process to make sure that you'vegot the chops to do it.
Makes sense.
And you've got the experience todo it, but also the kind of the

(16:36):
psychographic profile to do it,which is, you know, you're open,
you're honest, you're humblyconfident, you know, a lot of
those kinds of things.
And do they have like their ownkind of vetting system in that
regard?
Yeah, they do.
Oh, I think, is it Colby?
No.
Um, Colby's part of it, but it'snot a really big part of it.
Um, What they do is they, youknow, they have members of the

(16:57):
community will, will interview,um, Oh, interesting.
interview people who want tobecome an EOS implementer.
Typically what you need is a, isa referral from somebody who's
already an implementer thatvouches for you.
Okay.
And then there's a whole, uh,vetting and interview process
that they go through.
Interesting.
And then, like, you get, kindof, certified or whatever.

(17:18):
You start, and then you huntyour own fish, kind of thing.
Yeah, yeah.
Is that right?
Yeah.
You go to a week long training.
Yep.
And then, um, yeah.
And then, uh, you know, clients,and then EOS takes some portion
of your, of your fees.
No, they just have a flat, aflat.
Oh, really?
You pay a flat fee to be one andthen do as much work or as
little within that as you wantto?
Yep, yep.
Oh, interesting.
Yep, yep.

(17:39):
Probably makes sense.
You know, the, the cynicalperson in me is like, you know,
Be nice if they could just get40 percent of whatever you make
for them, you know, but yeah No,it's that's one of the things
that's appealing about thecommunity to me Yeah, this kind
of abundance mindset Which isyou know, if you if you do the
right thing if you help firsteverything else takes care of

(18:01):
itself Yeah, yeah, that's cool.
Um Let's talk about kind of yourprinciples for business, like
outside of the traction model orwhatever, like what's, what's,
what, what does Rick reallystand on when it comes to, to
maybe even defining what clientsyou'd want to work with and,
and, you know, your set ofparts, let's say.
Yeah.
So, you know, for me, um, thetype of clients I like to work

(18:25):
with are, are people who areopen and honest and, and
vulnerable.
Yeah.
willing to admit they need help.
It fills my cup to help people.
And I'm not interested inhelping people who don't want my
help.
Yeah.
Right.
Well, it's impossible usuallyanyway.
And, and, and part of that too,is, is people who want to

(18:46):
continue to grow and to continueto improve and, um, you know, in
terms of, you know, in terms ofmy management style, it's always
been to really try to manage byobjective.
And, and that's one of thethings I hit on quite a bit in,
in EOS is there's this conceptof delegating.

(19:07):
Sure.
It's not very powerful todelegate a handful of tasks to
someone, although sometimes youhave to do that.
What's really powerful is todelegate a significant objective
to someone and let them figureout how to achieve that
objective.
Yeah, yeah.
That's where you have a lot ofpower and that's where really
hiring the best people you canfind, getting clarity on their

(19:28):
objective and leaving them aloneis where you get a lot of power.
Yeah, that's an intriguing,obviously I transmit a lot of
these thoughts to my ownsituation and like, one of the
things I know we'd like to do atLoco Think Tank is, what's that
uh, FPS system or FMS system,how much your, your members
would refer you.
Uh, I forget what the name of itis, but like, I think that would

(19:51):
be really useful for us toreally be curious, more curious
about how interested our memberswould be to refer to us.
Right.
Right.
And which chapters are thestrongest in that?
Cause that's like a, to me,almost like a indicator of
health in general.
Right.
Um, But it's quite a project.
Yeah.
And it's not just a bunch oftasks.
Right.
Right.

(20:12):
Um, and, and I'm not necessarilythe organizational process
development person.
So, you know, rather than beinglike, Hey, let's dip our toe
into this.
No, the objective is by end ofQ2 Alma, you want to have a real
systemized way of sampling thiswithout driving our members
crazy.
Yeah.
And that's, that's theobjective.
Right.
And that's powerful.
And, you know, I'll tell youkind of a lesson I learned in

(20:34):
my.
In my career.
Yeah.
Um, when I was at LockheedMartin, I got promoted.
probably far too early.
And, um, I didn't realize it atthe time, but I, I wanted that
promotion for all the wrongreasons, right?
I was a mechanical engineer.
Um, I wanted my ideas to be theones that had the most weight,

(20:56):
you know, I thought I knew best.
And so I became, you know, Itook that leadership position
because I thought, I don't know,more about ambition kind of,
yeah.
If you will.
Yeah.
And.
And it was a little dis, it wasa little bit of a, I didn't
realize it at the time, but Iwas leading a bunch of engineers

(21:18):
that were in the same disciplineas me.
And I thought I knew best.
And then fast forward a fewyears, I got promoted at, at
Hewlett Packard.
And I had people with PhDs inelectrical engineering.
I had software engineers.
I had, you know, a lot ofdifferent engineering
disciplines.
reporting to me.

(21:38):
And I, and I was like, what am Ihere for?
If I'm, if, if I know less thananyone reporting to me and at a
very wise manager, tell me youhave to understand now the
product that you, that youcreate now is a high performance
team.
You still think you're trying tocreate new products.

(21:58):
You're creating a highperformance team that creates
products.
Your product is the team.
And so that's what, when I hadkind of a transformation that.
Now I have to be very good atsetting objectives because I'm
not going to be able to tellthem task by task what to do.
I have to make sure theobjective is clear.
And then if they need helpfiguring out how to achieve that

(22:21):
objective, That's a separateconversation.
And so that's when I started togrow as a leader.
Were you really good at peoplealready?
A lot of times people imaginethe engineer type to be kind of,
well, people averse.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm not your typicalengineer.
I, a lot of people, we couldtalk about my background before
that at some point, but I becamean engineer cause I was really

(22:45):
good at designing and creatingthings.
And I thought.
If I become an engineer, I'll beeven better at creating and
designing things.
A lot of people become engineerscause they were good in math and
science in high school andsomebody told them to be an
engineer.
And it's really a struggle forthem to be creative at all.
Right, right.
And so I went into it in alittle bit different.
And so I've always been kind ofatypical in terms of, you know,

(23:07):
the social interaction.
Managing by objectives is one ofyour big criterias, I think I
hear.
Is there other things you wantto draw while we're, Well, I
mean, just management byobjective.
Um, you know, I hired, I try tohire the best people I can find.
and trust that they want to do agood job.
I don't, you know, and, and I dotrust from day one.

(23:30):
A lot of people say, you have toprove to me that I can trust
you.
Which that's a little bitdifficult to do if they decide.
Well, they can choose not tostill.
Yeah.
We had, uh, Oh, I forget hisname.
Trustology is this book.
Um, he's a local guy, smart guy.
And that's kind of the premiseof the book is, is you can't,

(23:51):
Earn trust, you can only grantit.
Right, right.
Ultimately.
Right.
So and so, I, it's always servedme well to, to trust that people
wanna do a good job.
Yeah.
And they're motivated.
And if they're not successful,it's because of me.
That's, that covers 99% of thecases.
Okay.
And, uh, anything else that arekind of your big commonalities?

(24:18):
Um, Potentially, I can't thinkof any right now.
Yeah.
You know, I think this is goingto be a better unfold as We go
back to your, your roots anyway,and kind of explore that journey
out of big corporate ultimatelyinto kind of that serial
entrepreneur space.
Um, but we usually go back evenfurther to like first grade.
Yeah.
So were you Colorado alreadythen?

(24:39):
Um, so I was born in Colorado.
Okay.
Um, my parents were in college.
And where was, where was that?
They, they were in Alamosa atAdams state.
Okay.
And, um, I was Still young, Idon't remember when this
happened, but my dad got hisfirst job out of college.
Okay.
And we moved to New Jersey.
Okay.

(24:59):
For a year or two.
Then he got transferred toCalifornia for a year or two.
Then we moved back to Colorado.
And tell me, what was thecircumstance, maybe, of them
being at college at Adams StateUniversity?
Were they from Colorado familiesas well?
Yeah.
My mom grew up in Walsenburg.
Okay.
Yep.
Um, my dad grew up in Steamboat.
Yep.
And, uh, he was an athlete, sohe had a wrestling scholarship

(25:22):
to Adams State.
Gotcha.
Gotcha.
And that's where they met.
And so they had, um, At leasttwo, they, well they had two.
And from Walsenburg, like,Alamosa is like a city.
Right, exactly.
Metropolis.
Right, right, yeah.
Yeah, so they had two of us whenthey were still in college.
Cool.
Yep.
And, uh, so you kind of got toexperience this, this city life,

(25:42):
uh, as you, as a toddler kind ofthing, and then back to
Colorado.
Yep, yep, yep.
Move back to Leadville and whatokay?
It's interesting place to growup there, too I imagine yeah, so
that's probably what in some ofyour earliest actual memories
are you're like a middle Youknow a middle elementary of at
this point.
Yep.
Yeah, and what was what wasyoung Rick like?

(26:03):
What would your what would yourthird grade teacher describe you
as in Leadville or fourth grade?
Um, that's a good question Idon't think people thought I was
a very good student.
Yeah I Just not paying attentionenough.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think I wasn't payingattention.
I don't think I was Realenergized about school at that
age, you know Were there moresiblings to come by the way?

(26:26):
Yeah, so I have an older sisterand a younger sister.
Okay, okay.
Yeah, and So you're cruisingalong and how long in in
Leadville or what was some ofthe major milestones there as
you grew?
You know I'm trying to rememberthe, the earliest things.
Um, you know.

(26:47):
Yeah, what was the culture ofthat town?
It had, because it couldn't be,what, maybe a couple hundred
kids?
Yeah, I think.
At least three, four hundredkids in the whole high school?
Yeah, I think my graduatingclass was, was fifty kids.
Okay, yeah.
Um, you know, we, we lived inthe country.
We had horses and cattle.
Okay.
And, um.
And your dad was like Engineeror something like that?
He was, but he quit that early.

(27:07):
He quit the corporate stuffearly and he moved back to
Leadville and became a silverminer.
Oh, interesting.
For his vocation.
Yeah.
On his own or working for asilver mine?
For a silver mine.
Okay.
But we ran horses and cattle.
Yeah, yeah.
And we had hay and stuff likethat.
And then, um, you know, thosemines shut down in the early
80s.
Okay.

(27:28):
So we found ourselves trying toscratch out a living up there by
any means.
With horses and cows andwhatever else.
Yeah.
Harvesting logs.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We had a, we had a businesswhere we would clear cut
National Forest.
We'd get a contract to clear cutNational Forest and then we
would, you know, uh, firewood tothe ski resorts up there and had

(27:50):
a snow plowing business and, um,all kinds of different stuff.
Yeah.
Was your dad ever, or was yourmom, if you reflected on that,
like, were they happy to nothave taken the Lockheed Martin
path or the Jersey path orwhatever?
Yeah.
I think so.
They were there because theywanted to be.
Yeah, I think so.
I think, um, you know,especially my dad.
He, He was happier, um, doingthat kind of thing.

(28:12):
He just never fit into thatcorporate, yeah, that corporate
environment.
Yeah.
Um, so let's take you to the endof high school here.
You're trying to decide where togo to college and stuff.
What does that look like foryou?
Oh, that was not Never thought.
Not even on the radar?
No.
Really?
Okay.
So I, I, I rodeoed all throughschool.
Okay.
I did six events all the way upthrough high school.

(28:33):
Like starting as like a 11 yearold or 12 year old or something?
Actually, I started ridingsteers and stuff when I was five
years old.
Yeah, interesting.
Um, and then.
Okay.
Rodeoed And was, was that whatyour dad was raising like
bucking bulls and stuff likethat too or?
Um, we had, we had rope andcattle and rope and horses and
stuff like that.
Gotcha.
But, um, and so I did six eventsthrough high school.

(28:56):
Um, when I graduated from highschool, my, my best event had
clearly shown itself to be bullriding.
Okay.
And so I, as soon as I graduatedfrom high school, I turned pro.
Wow.
Yeah.
And rodeoed, and I had no planB.
Um, but, but the only thing Idid have going for myself is I
took auto shop and welding inhigh school, so I could work on

(29:18):
cars and I could, and I couldweld if I needed a job.
Well, imagine rodeo is at leastvery seasonal, right?
No, it's year round.
Is it really?
Okay.
I would have said, I guess youjust do indoor arenas in the
wintertime.
No.
Not always.
No, not always.
Gotcha.
Yeah.
A lot of rodeos down south inthe wintertime.
Oh, sure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Can we, like, how long did youdo rodeoing?

(29:40):
Let's see.
As a pro.
Um, two, a little over twoyears, and then I had a career
ending injury.

(30:28):
Tell me about the lifestyle.
Um.
Like, what's that look like,really?
Is Chris LeDoux telling us true?
No.
Chris LeDoux, he pretty muchhits it on the head.
Yeah.
Um, back in those days, it was ahundred and some rodeos a year.
Okay.
You were on the road all thetime.
Wow.
Yeah.
You were.
You were scratching, scratchingto make a living.
If you were making enough moneyto stay on the road, you were

(30:52):
doing really well.
And when is this?
This is like in the mid ninetiesor something like that?
Mid eighties.
Mid eighties.
Okay.
Yeah, you must be a lot olderthan I think But yeah, and so,
you know, it was you know, itwas great You know, I was living
the dream.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's what I alwayswanted to do.
You were staying on the roadYeah, we were putting much in

(31:13):
their savings account, but rightright to pick up truck that
didn't need new tires yet Yeah,that's right.
Yeah, and so and you're a singleguy, I guess.
Yeah, I was single Yeah, it wasgreat.
The um Did you have, like,buddies that you toured around
with and stuff, or whatever?
Like, rent an apartment for awhile or anything like that?
Or were you just pretty muchstaying in hotels?
Yeah, we were on the road allthe time.

(31:35):
How do you get your mail andbills and stuff like that?
Well, we'd have a, you know, anapartment back home that we all
shared.
Gotcha.
You know, but That you werethere for like Right.
27 days a year.
Yeah, yeah, yep, yep, yep.
Hmm.
So The injury.
Yeah.
that?
Yeah.
So, um, I tore the ulna from mywrist on my riding hand.

(32:00):
From it?
Yeah.
The ulna disconnected from mywrist.
So the radius and the ulna arethese two, the big one's the
ulna?
The little one is the ulna.
The little one is the ulna.
And that popped up anddisconnected from my wrist.
And I had to have reconstructivesurgery.
Like a pond head in the ground?
No, it was You were holding ontoo tight.
I was holding on too tight.
Oh, damn.

(32:20):
My I had a big strong bull.
My elbow didn't give, and myulna popped up.
And so that was the end.
Really?
Just like that?
Yeah.
There was no surgery rehab for ayear or anything like that?
No.
The When I finally got thesurgery, the doctor was like,
You You can't do this anymore.

(32:41):
Yeah.
You know, did you have ideas tomaybe I could do team roping or
some other thing?
No, you focused all your effortinto yeah bulls and you know
when that was gonna do it whenthat got taken away from me I
was like, you know, I was one ofthose people who I couldn't have
anything to do with it anymoreYeah, because I missed it so
much I had to kind of put thatin a box put it aside and try to

(33:04):
move on because I missed it Somuch were you like depressed?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Had you in those?
You Months on the road andstuff.
Were you like partying and stufflike that?
Did that get worse?
No, I mean, he didn't turn toalcohol as a soothe.
No, I mean, you know, we didparty.
I don't want to, I don't want tosay we didn't, but we were
professional too.

(33:25):
We were professional.
Right.
Right.
Fair.
Right.
All right.
You know, so for me, yeah, forme, the hardest thing about
staying on the road was stayingin shape, you know?
And so that was always somethingwe were trying to do.
Um, but for me, it was myidentity.
Yeah.
Yeah, and so when I got takenaway, it was like what well,
what is my you're like 20 yearsold?
Yeah, or something like that,right?

(33:47):
And you go through a process tofigure that out or yeah, you
know I had to go home and get ajob right away And so, you know,
I went to work for a farmer outin Eastern, Colorado Okay, then
I got a job building elevatorlegs as a welder.
Okay, I'm doing some stuff inthe oil fields as a welder.
I Decided you know, maybe Ishould go to college You And,

(34:10):
um, so I moved to Greeleybecause there was a junior
college in Greeley.
And I got a job at themeatpacking house in Greeley,
Momford.
And they asked me what shift Iwanted to work.
And I said, straight graveyards.
And they were like, really?
Who?
Nobody ever chooses that.
Right.
You just wanted to have yourrest of your day open for
school.

(34:31):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I got a job at Monfort.
Dang.
Probably paid better too, Ireckon.
It paid pretty good.
It had full benefits.
Yeah.
And Turns out I couldn't havereconstructive surgery until I
got a job with benefits.
Oh, gotcha.
So Dang, so you were, you were,you were Building grain bins and

(34:53):
doing these different thingswith kind of a little bit jacked
up, uh, Yeah, wrist there.
Yeah, it was it was pretty bad.
Mm hmm but so I went to thecommunity college in Greeley and
You know, they said the firstthing to do is take a pre
assessment test to see where youare Okay, and so I took a pre
assessment test and they Got theresults back and they called me

(35:17):
in and they said, well, you'reat a ninth grade math level on
the ninth grade reading level.
What is it you think you want tostudy?
And I said, I want to be anengineer.
And they actually laughed, theywere like, I think you should be
a little bit more realistic.
Maybe a welder.
Right.
Right.
And so, um, and so.
Um, I was taking classes parttime working in the meatpacking

(35:39):
house and then, um, I started aroofing business, left the
meatpacking plant.
And.
And so you, like, you reallyjust didn't pay much attention
to school at all, like duringyour high school years too.
No.
Cause it's obvious to me andI've, this was obvious to your
parents and your teachers thatyou were smart, intelligent
enough to get it.
I think so.

(35:59):
No, but I think, um.
Maybe they knew, but I didn't.
Right.
Well, it's also easy for you tobe annoying enough by your
disinterest that they don't carewhether you're smart or not.
It could be.
You know, like, whatever.
If you don't want to learnnothing here, then we'll check
you later.
Right.
That's really interesting.
Right.
Okay, so, so you start dabbling,getting some classes under your

(36:21):
belt?
Yep.
Started my roofing business,kept taking classes.
Um, In roofing businesses, likeyou and a couple of contract
laborers here and there kind ofthing, just doing residential
roofs when, especially whenthere's hailstorms.
When there's hailstorms, you're,you're making money hand over
fist.
Right.
And, um, and so I, I was takingenough prerequisite classes at

(36:43):
Ames that I was ready to startan engineering program.
And then I got accepted into CSUengineering program on a, On a
probationary basis, because, youknow, if, if you don't have the
ACT or SAT scores and you're notright out of high school, they
don't know what to do with you.
So they accepted me.

(37:03):
Um, on a one year probation andso I had to take all the, all
the math and science andengineering classes my freshman
year and get a B or better inall of them and then they would
accept me.
Okay.
Interesting.
Yeah.
And so, you showed them?
You got B's and above oneverything?
Yeah.
And you were allowed to stay atCSU?
But it was, it was, um It wasout of pure fear.

(37:25):
I mean, I had a family that wasdepending on me.
And, um You're talking aboutyour parents and stuff?
Or did you find a gal on thisjourney?
Yeah.
When you were bull riding?
Yeah.
No, after bull riding, beforecollege, I got married.
Okay.
And, um, and so, you know, thatself induced poverty of Well,
and married and had a child too,otherwise she'd been making a

(37:48):
little scratch for you and youcould have coasted.
Yeah.
Okay.
And so, um, you know, there wasa lot of fear that I wasn't, I
wasn't smart enough.
Yeah.
You know, I'm looking around inthese freshman classes and
everybody was the valedictorianfrom their high school.
Hmm.
Right.
And, um, you know, it, it tookme a little while to figure it
out.
Yeah, and they just laughed atyou when you said, I want to be

(38:08):
an engineer.
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
Right.
I'm just this, this kid out ofnowhere.
Huh.
Who didn't even take math inhigh school.
Right.
Well, and you were probablyhumble, confident, at least as
far as it went to bull riding,and some of the other rodeo arts
are different things, but hadn'treally developed that yet.
Right.
In your intellectual capacity.
Right.
And, you know, the one thing Ilearned from my dad is to work

(38:28):
hard.
Yeah.
And, you know, I didn't realizeit at the time, but, um,
everybody there was smart.
Right.
What separates people is hardwork.
And so, you know, on myfreshman, my freshman, uh, first
freshman class, they said, lookto your left, look to your
right, those two people won't behere on graduation day.

(38:48):
They take pride in flunking out50 or 60 percent of the
engineering students.
That scared me to death.
Right.
And, you know, I didn't realize,um, I didn't know that first
year that I was going to beokay.
I just, I was scared to deaththat I wasn't going to make it.
And that fear never left meuntil I got to my senior year.

(39:09):
I realized I got a 4.
0.
I've never even had a B yet.
You're probably going to beokay.
You never hardly had an A inyour life before that.
No, no, no.
Yeah.
And also I had to get done infour years, which, you know,
most, I think the averageengineering degree takes five or
six years to get.
I would say so.
Yeah.
I, I went to school forengineering, uh, and took five

(39:31):
and a half years to come outwith an economics degree.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So.
Yeah.
So it was, you know, it wasjust, it was, like I said, it
was all fear, fear of failure.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know.
And then what?
Like, um, were the jobs what wasit?
This is like what early 90s bythis time?
Yeah, by this time I graduatedin 94.

(39:52):
Okay.
Okay, so mid 90s.
Yeah, and you know I had youknow, I had an opportunity to to
work at the engines lab at CSU.
Oh, really?
With Dr.
Wilson.
Okay.
And, you know, Dr.
Wilson and I and a couple otherstudents kind of opened up that,

(40:12):
that building where the engineslab was.
Oh, is that right?
And I got to do a bunch ofreally cool stuff as an
engineering student.
Oh, wow.
And, um, my junior year, um, Istarted realizing that the
economy was looking a littleworse than I had hoped.
And so to kind of mitigate therisk that I couldn't get a job,
I had put together some fundingfor a graduate program.

(40:35):
In case I couldn't get a job.
Fortunately, my senior year, Igot an offer from Lockheed
Martin.
And they made me an offer beforegraduation.
And so Were you an intern forthem or something like that?
Or how did they get to know you?
Uh, just like a professor'svouch for you somehow?
No, they did recruiting.
Okay.
On campus.
Okay.
And, um, they were hiring forsomething called the Leadership

(40:59):
Development Program where theyhired 10 new college grads
nationwide with this idea thatthey were going to be, um, you
know, set up for leadership inLockheed Martin.
I mean, my, I, I got started ina credit and management training
program, you know, teaching thenear future lenders and distant
future bank presidents, uh, howto be in our, in Thing, you

(41:22):
know?
Right.
That was my beginning of mycareer was the same kind of
thing.
Yeah.
And you know, I think lookingback on it, I was, um, I was
probably a little more seasonedthan most new college grads
because I was, you know, I wasdamn near four years older.
I was damn near 36 years older.
You know, I was damn near 30 bythe time I graduated from
college.
Yep.
Yep.
Um, you know, that, that wasprobably a benefit.
And was that a good program toyou?

(41:43):
Like beneficial outside of justthe being a part of Lockheed or
was the program less importantthan the people around you?
Well, what ended up happening isit was an ill conceived program.
So the idea was you'd get a newjob every six months for four
years, and then you'd be a welltrained, well rounded leader,
but you show up at eachmanager's, um, office and say,

(42:06):
I'm leaving in six months.
Right.
They're like, you're a pain inmy ass.
I don't even want to give youany time or resources.
And so I pulled out of theprogram and went into the
engines propulsion lab.
Okay.
And that's where I kind of foundmy home.
Yeah.
And found that first, uh,residence challenge and whatnot.
I'll saw.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, you know, after a fewyears, I realized that, um,

(42:28):
although it's fun work, um,becoming labeled as an aerospace
engineer can be suicide.
Hmm.
And so, because there's such afew number of companies that you
can work for or it's, you know,you can kind of be pigeonholed
if you've been an aerospaceengineer for 20 years, Hewlett
Packard is not going to hireyou.
Right.
Right.
And so I left when I was still ayoung engineer with good

(42:49):
experience, but I wasn'tpigeonholed yet.
And so I went to HewlettPackard.
Okay.
Yep.
Which was very much in itsinfancy.
strong part of life at thatpoint in time.
Yeah.
I mean, everybody wanted to workat HP.
Totally.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was the best place.
Best and brightest.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, and right back into productstuff or is this when you

(43:09):
transitioned into managingpeople more?
I went right into, right intoproduct development and it was
just great.
It was great because you know,we had in the division I was in,
we had everything in one place.
So we had marketing.
engineering, manufacturing,sales, everything was in, in one
place.
And so it really was a cool.

(43:30):
So you got to kind of whatLockheed was trying to show you
by having these different jobs,you got to just meet people that
are doing these differentfunctions.
Right.
Right.
Interesting.
Yeah.
And so that's when I startedrealizing that, um, you know,
the, the biggest failure inproduct development happens long
before the product is developed.
And that's really understandwhat the market needs are,

(43:53):
making sure that you have acompelling product for those
market needs.
You don't over design it orunder design it.
And you have clarity about whatthe value proposition is and
what people are willing to payfor that value.
Yeah, yeah.
And so Well, that was really,we'll get to there, but that was
really the The linchpin of youraccelerator, uh, investment hub.

(44:15):
Right, exactly.
And it turns out it doesn'tmatter whether you're a startup
or a fortune 500 company, um, Ifyou don't develop the right
product for the market, in aFortune 500 company, you just
have a small decrease inrevenue, right?
I remember when CNN came outwith their, what was it, CNN
Online or something like that?

(44:35):
And it's like, to fix theproblem of nobody wanting to
watch online, Our news network,we're going to create a huge
online community where peoplepay to watch it online, right.
To not watch it online orsomething.
Right.
I think they lost 300 million inlike six months and then pulled
the plug.
Right.
Yeah.
And you know, more productmarket fit analysis first.
Yeah.
And talk to 10 people.

(44:56):
Right.
And you know, the, but what endsup happening is especially in,
with entrepreneurs.
Um, we see the solution tosomething and we pursue that
solution, you know, with, withjust reckless abandonment, a

(45:16):
solution, it's a solution andalso, and I'll get to my, I'll
wrap this point up, but also,especially as an engineer, if
you're an innovator and aninventor, you're all about,
you're taught for four years,how to solve problems.
Thank you very much.
You're never really taught theimportance of clearly defining

(45:38):
the problem.
Mm hmm.
And whether or not it's worthsolving.
Yeah.
And so we're trained to dosolutions.
We're not trained to think longand hard about the problem.
Yeah, yeah.
And so, um, that's, that's whatends up happening even in
Fortune 500 companies.
For sure, for sure.
And in economics training, uh,you know, that notion of

(46:00):
unintended consequences is kindof right there from the
beginning.
Right.
Much more so than, than on anengineering basis.
Cause it's like, Um, and it'skind of like, there's the
problem, make it go away.
Right.
You know, and yeah, sometimesyou'll cause other problems from
that, but it's not in the sameway that the complex systems are
exposing.
That's the difference between, Iguess, engineering is generally

(46:20):
dealing with, um, one, I don'tknow what the complicated
system, right.
But it's all kind of within thatthing.
You know, if you get thatharmonic vibration out of that
rocket engine, it doesn't blowup anymore.
Right, right.
But it's a complicated or acomplex system.
You know, all these peoplemaking all these different
buying decisions based oncompeting products and brand
awareness.
And, and, you know, the thingthat I, that I really started to

(46:45):
put a lot of thought into is,um, and I've kind of segmented
it, you have problem space andyou have solution space, the
longer you can stay in problemspace without thinking about a
solution.
the better you are at clearlydefining the problem.
Once you start entering solutionspace, your ability to detect

(47:09):
that you missed the root causeof the problem goes away.
You get enamored with yoursolution and you'll never
revisit the problem again.
Have we talked about Locosprocess?
I'm sure.
Well, you're familiar probablywith Vistage at least.
Yeah.
Yeah.
The Vistage meeting.
It's kind of the same, but youknow, it's clarifying questions
before suggestions.
Right, you define the problem,ask the question, and then your

(47:31):
fellow 10, 12 members can onlyask clarifying questions for 15,
maybe even 20 minutes out of a30 minute session.
And then you get five minutesfor suggestions.
Okay.
And the same kind of thing, thelonger you can stay on the
problem.
And so when, when I'mfacilitating free think sessions
and stuff, when there's newbiesthere, like always, I have to be
like, now, is that a suggestion?

(47:53):
Is that a, is that a question?
Made, or suggested, it made itsound like a question.
And it's for that same reason ofstaying on the problem.
Right, right.
Long enough.
And staying on it long enoughto, to really distill it down to
its essence.
Yeah, yeah.
Right.
And so, um, so anyway, that's,that's where the problem usually
starts in product development.

(48:15):
So, you have a little time in HPand there, and then that's when
you kind of started being in thepeople business, is that right?
Yeah.
That mentor that shared thatwith you?
Yeah, yeah, so I And was this inFort Collins here?
This is in Northern Colorado atHP?
It was at HP in Greeley, andthen I went, uh, to HP in
Loveland.
Okay.
During the, the, uh, Agilentspinoff time frame.
Yep, yep, yep, okay.

(48:36):
And that's where I was promoted.
Yep, gotcha.
And then, um, Like, did you gostraight from there into your
first entrepreneurial venture ortell me that circumstance maybe,
and maybe set the stage.
You've got a wife and more thanone child by now, this time in
your career.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
And so, um, yeah, so I got to doa lot of really cool stuff at

(48:58):
HP.
I got to figure out where, youknow, like I mentioned, where
the, the root cause of theproblems were for, for products.
Yeah.
And so I started moving upstreamfrom, uh, the engineering to
more of the product management.
Yep.
Inbound marketing, um, that kindof thing.
And so, um, you know, then I waspromoted at Agilent and I ran a

(49:19):
team of people designing thesystem on a chip tester.
Okay.
And so, um, really trying tounderstand what the market needs
were, um, you know, how we coulddifferentiate the product, that
kind of thing.
Yeah.
And what did Agilent do that wasdifferent than HP?
Like when that spun apart?
The, the only difference wasthey separated it by product

(49:39):
line.
So, okay.
HP was originally started by,um, Bill and Dave developing
engineering test equipment.
Yep.
Then they moved into consumerproducts like the printers and
that kind of thing.
So when they spun off Agilent,it was all the original
engineering and test equipment.
Okay.
HP became all the consumerproducts.
Gotcha, gotcha, okay.
Yep.
That was, that was myperception, but I wasn't really

(50:01):
clear about if Agilent had otherproducts or things like that.
Well, when I made the move, Ithought, you know, Agilent would
probably carry on the heart andsoul of HP.
Yeah.
You know, they had already hireda celebrity CEO for HP, and I
could see things were changing.
And so I went with Agilentbecause I wanted to be part of
that, that culture.

(50:22):
And then what happened withthat?
Did Agilent continue on as itcontinued on?
Did it re emerge?
I don't, I don't really know,honestly.
So Agilent continued on, uh,they went through, um, a period
of about 10 years where theywere, um, spinning off
businesses.
Taking the proceeds from thosespinoffs and doing stock

(50:43):
repurchase.
Oh, interesting.
And they got down to where, Ithink, HP in Loveland, for
example, went from 13, 000people down to about 900.
Yeah.
In that 10 year period.
Yeah, yeah.
And, um, I think after I left,Agilent decided to go into just,
um, biotech stuff or maybehealthcare stuff.

(51:04):
Oh, interesting.
Yeah, yeah.
And then the rest of theelectronics stuff was spun off
into Keysight.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
So.
Interesting.
Alright.
And so you leave to chase, chasewhat pasture from here?
Um, so I left, um, I leftAgilent and I went to, um,
Pelco.
They, Pelco designed, um, videosurveillance and back end

(51:27):
software systems.
Oh, okay.
So they developed the camerasand the back end software for
Yeah, for banks and stuffespecially.
Convenience stores, whatever.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
And so that was really funbecause they had started a new,
a new, uh, It was basically astartup within Pelco, which was
in, in Fort Collins.
And we were developing internetprotocol technology and

(51:50):
everything prior to that hadbeen the old analog recording
stuff on discs and right.
Right.
Get rid of them after a month orsix months or a year.
If nobody claims that he gotrobbed or whatever.
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Okay.
Yeah.
So that was really fun.
So super early cloud really insome ways.
Yep.
And.
And from there, like youmentioned, you, you got taken

(52:11):
out of state for an opportunity.
What was that?
Or maybe went what timetimeline?
Um, yeah, so that there was afew, a few businesses and
startups in between there.
But, um, you know, I went, youstarted, Um, two that I started.
I want to, I want to hear thefirst story of the first start.
Yeah.
So the, um, so I went to, um,there was a startup in Boulder

(52:34):
called MinuteKey.
Okay.
And they, um, they developedthose kiosks that you see in
grocery stores where you putyour house key in.
Yeah, yeah.
And 60 seconds later, it kicksout a copy.
A little bit similar to when youbuy your dog tag at Vetco or
whatever.
Yeah, exactly.
So they had, um, they had putout a couple of prototypes of

(52:55):
those machines and gotten sometraction in the market, gotten
quite a bit of funding.
Um, but they really needed someprofessional help in terms of
how to develop a product.
Okay.
So they brought me in, you know,I analyzed the To be kind of the
product manager?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Effectively?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I And the problem solver forthe few little glitches that
were keeping so many people frombuying it?

(53:16):
Right.
Or whatever.
And so, but you know, how do youscale from a handful to three or
four thousand of these machines?
Right.
And, um, what are the challengesassociated with that?
What does the machine need to donot only to meet the business
goals, but also meet the goalsof the consumer and that kind of
thing.
And so, you know, I ran that,um, scaled that up.

(53:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sounds pretty interesting.
Yeah.
Then, um, I started a, um, itwas, it was an engineering.
Did you get chips for that?
Uh, did you get any extracompensation for helping them
figure it out?
Did you have an equity slice?
Yeah, I had some, I had somelittle piece.
Okay.
Yeah.
Well, that's not, I mean, it'snice if you're going to solve
big problems.

(53:56):
It's nice to have a piece of theupside.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, then I went to a, um,engineering research, applied
research, um, idea that, that,um, would take.
Engineering technology formanufacturing and help small to
medium sized manufacturersutilize that technology to
become more competitive.

(54:17):
Okay.
Um, that failed miserably.
Okay.
What was the value propositionthere?
Is this machinery?
Is it software?
Um, all of the above.
So one of the, one of thetechnologies was non destructive
evaluation of, um, of weldjoints and things like that.
So you could determine nondestructively whether or not a
weld was good.

(54:38):
You could also use artificialintelligence, um, looking at the
stock coming into, uh, a, um, aforge machine and you could
determine what parameters theforge machine needed in order to
put out, you know, parts withinspec and that kind of thing.
Oh, right.
Like the quality of the basestock coming in kind of matters,
how long the forge has to cookit kind of thing.

(54:59):
And it's real time evaluation.
Okay.
Interesting.
You know, so the idea was that alot of this, this technology,
small to medium sizedmanufacturers can't afford to
develop.
Sure.
And so we would develop it andthen make it available.
Yep, yep.
So, and then, like, what was thefailure?
So it was a hybrid model.
It was a a, um, non-profit.

(55:22):
Mm mm.
Not for loss, but not forprofit.
Right, right.
So that you could get governmentgrants to do the research.
Yep.
And then you would charge smallto medium sized manufacturers
for those solutions.
Right.
And that was the, that was thesustaining component.
The sustaining component.
Never really materialized.
Yeah.
Gotcha, gotcha.
Yeah, we researched some stuff,we came up with some conclusions

(55:44):
and the marketplace didn'treally find us.
Yeah.
And you know, I think there wasa, there there, um.
You know, that could have workedout, I think, with more time.
But, um, so then I, I had anopportunity.
There was a guy in Louisvillethat had developed technology,
um, for taking sunlight,capturing it, um, on a rooftop.

(56:07):
Okay.
Unit putting it into, uh, fiberoptics and, and then you
basically can provide daylightat a very high efficiency.
So I partnered with him and likea skylight.
I, I actually had a businessthat did solar tubes back in the
day.
And so like, even in this place,they would put a skylight 10

(56:27):
feet up and then run a littletube and then a little receiver,
and so you got skylight andsunlight in here.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But in a different way.
Yeah.
And so this was, um, you know,pretty powerful technology.
It was four or five times moreefficient than any other, uh,
that's really cool.
And, you know, there's, so youhave this, this beautiful
technology, but what do you dowith it?

(56:49):
Yeah.
You're competing with a lightbulb.
Right.
Uh, that run, and now we've gotLEDs and stuff besides and
whatever else, you know, theyjust don't take that much
energy, right?
And so, you know, you startlooking at, well, could it,
could it replace the lightingand business and.
In, in office buildings.
Well, it could, but who cares?

(57:10):
Does the tenant care?
Yeah, the tenant would see adecrease in their utility bill,
but the owner of the buildinghas to approve all this change
to the infrastructure and theysee no benefit to it.
Yeah.
So that really turned out not tobe maybe you might have Happier
employees by a little bit orsomething because they got

(57:31):
natural sunlight instead ofthese right good light bulbs But
then we thought hey, I got anidea all these marijuana
growers.
Mm hmm.
They're using all this crazyamounts of electricity Yeah,
maybe we can pipe in naturalsunlight.
Yeah full spectrum naturalsunlight, right?
And help and grow marijuana thatway.

(57:52):
Yeah, and so, you know, we cameup with this You All the, all
the analysis that showed that wecould probably grow marijuana
and we could do it full spectrumand it would probably be
cheaper.
And all this other stuff.
And then, you know, I got to thepoint where I said, we have to

(58:12):
prove that this is feasible.
I don't want to do any moreproduct development until we
prove that this is feasible,viable.
We got to talk to some growersand see if they want to buy
this.
We talked to a lot of growers.
They were very interested.
Everything looked good, but Isaid, we have to do a pilot.
And so, um, we got a grower thatagreed to do a 12 week flower

(58:35):
cycle with our technology.
And it turned out it did have animprovement to yield.
Okay.
But it was not enough of animprovement to justify kind of
the re fitment of all these you.
The complexity.
The complexity, the cost, all ofthat.
Yeah.
And it turned out that LEDtechnology was getting better

(58:55):
and better and better.
Mm-hmm.
And cheaper.
And cheaper and cheaper.
Yep.
And that was the solution.
Yep.
Was better.
LED technology.
That makes sense, honestly.
'cause then, and plus you cando.
Kind of whatever parts of thespectrum you want to supplement,
you can do that with LED too.
Right, right.
Interesting.
So I left that, um, you know, Igave it, I gave it the good
college effort.
Yeah.
And, um, I'm sure thattechnology at some point will

(59:17):
find a home.
Maybe.
It's still in hibernation rightnow.
But it was the classic exampleof a solution looking for a
problem.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And, um, you know, that, thatbecame kind of a recurring theme
in my career is a lot ofsolutions looking for problems.
Mm hmm.
And so, it's about that timethat I got the opportunity to

(59:39):
build that investment fund.
Okay.
And the, the, the coachingprogram and the accelerator
program in Buffalo.
And, like, were there some, somewealthy and people in Buffalo
that were like, Hey, we gotenough money, we just need the
right person to build thisaround?
Or like, what, how, what's that?
Yeah.
You said I got this opportunity,that seems such a random thing.

(59:59):
Yeah, it sounds random.
Um, So the connection is, um, Ihad a very close friend in
Buffalo who told me this, thisthing was coming up.
Okay.
But what it is, is you, youknow, Buffalo has this history
of being, you know, the centerof the universe in terms of
manufacturing at the turn of thecentury in the 1900s.
Sure, and Woodward Governor herelocally.

(01:00:20):
The center of wealth.
Kodak, right?
Yeah.
Even and stuff.
It was like the center of wealthin, in industrial America.
Hmm.
And, you know, in the 50s, 60s,70s, and 80s, that all just
tanked, right?
And so, you know, Buffalo's beenthis great culture, this great
city looking for a spark.
And the people there are justincredibly hardworking and

(01:00:44):
innovative, but they just kindof needed a spark.
And so the state of New York andother foundations started
realizing, You know, maybe thespark is to start putting some
things in place forentrepreneurial endeavors in
Buffalo.
Yeah.
And so Well, and Pittsburgh hashad kind of a similar Exactly.

(01:01:04):
Uh, whatever, rebirth of sorts.
Right.
And probably came with someintentionality.
Yeah.
And so, you know, what ended uphappening is the state of New
York and, and, and otherphilanthropic groups wanted to
start funding, um, startups inBuffalo.
Okay.
Yeah.
And so they started pullingtogether these resources looking

(01:01:28):
for someone who could kind of,you know, put that together,
pull it all together and putsomething together that was
actually going to work.
Right.
Well, cause it's easy to give abunch of grants away and have
none of it ever do anything.
Right.
And so that's, that's, that'swhere I came in and, you know, I
said, okay, um, let's take astep back and think about root

(01:01:50):
cause.
Yeah.
Why do startups fail?
Right.
Well, 90 percent of them failbecause they have a solution to
a problem.
That's not worth solving.
So we do know that 90 percent ofthe startups fail for that
reason.
We would be remiss if we didn'tmitigate that as our number one
risk.
Right.

(01:02:10):
And so, um, and I said, the waywe do that as we intervene very,
very early before they've becomeenamored with their solution,
spend all their life savings ona solution.
Let's intervene before thathappens.
And so, um, you know, I puttogether this, this phased
program where if you wanted tobecome part of this, I'll give

(01:02:34):
you incubator space and I'llgive you coaching for three
months.
Those first three months, you'renot allowed to talk about your
solution.
Okay.
And I went through this whole,um, kind of rigorous process
where I would force them toanswer questions about what's
your target market.
Okay.

(01:02:54):
What problem do they have if youcould solve that problem, and I
don't know what I don't want toknow how you're gonna solve it
But if you could solve it, howmuch how much could you charge
for it?
You know and I want you togather evidence about how big
that market might be if you'reright about your target and all
of Those sorts of things then Iwould say if you get through

(01:03:16):
those first three months And Ibelieve that you may be on to
something.
I'll give you a hundred thousanddollars in six months You To
prove you might be right.
That still doesn't mean I wantyou to go spend a hundred
thousand dollars on productdevelopment.
I want you to work on proving.
Or getting more, um, confidencethat you might be right.

(01:03:37):
How many customers actually arethere, I want you to talk to
people about what they actuallywould pay for this.
Right.
Those kind of things.
Right.
Putting some quantification tothose guesses.
And if they get through that,then there's 250, 000 to do a
very early minimum viableproduct to prove even further
that you might be on tosomething.
You're still not doing productdevelopment yet.

(01:03:57):
But now you're preparing to, toprove to other investors you
might be right.
And so that was the, and that'swhen the, and then at that point
they might get either angelfunding or, or a seed round or
something like that.
Yeah.
So I would do pre seed a hundredK 250 K, um, kind of pre seed

(01:04:18):
seed.
And then, you know, later Iwould help broker a deal.
Right.
Um, maybe even put some of yourown chips in too.
Put another million in and getother investors.
That was kind of the concept.
Now, are these, um, likesoftware as a service products
or the physical products, uh,mostly with some technology
involved, I'm assuming, butmaybe not.

(01:04:38):
It didn't have to be.
Is there stories that you'reparticularly proud of, um, from
that incubator?
Yeah.
So you can talk about, yeah, no,there's, there's a couple, you
know, the one that, that I'mreally, that I think about all
the time is there was, um, a lotof this was through.
The University of Buffalo.

(01:04:58):
So for logistical reasons, itwas easier to take this
investment and put it into theinfrastructure of university at
Buffalo.
And so we would take not onlyinnovations from the community,
but innovations from universityat Buffalo.
And, yeah, kind of that notionof a commercializing stuff
that's been invented here.
Yep.
So there was this, um, um,medical student, I think he, he

(01:05:22):
had graduated by this time, buthe had an idea of saving.
Healthy stem cells for use laterwhen people got cancer and
charging Storage fee for yourstem cells, right?
Because it's your actual stemcells.
Yep.
Okay.
Yep.
Yeah, and so Stem cell bank.

(01:05:42):
Yeah, and so he was convincedthat he needed a million dollars
to build this lab for extractingand storing So he came into the
program and I said Excuse me Hecame into the program and I said
Let's, let's put that aside fora minute.

(01:06:06):
Let's talk about who your targetcustomer is.
And he was like, um, people whoare concerned about getting
cancer someday.
I don't know.
So, so we kept, you know, I metwith him every week to talk
about the kinds of things hecould look at to determine what
the target customer was.
So he, he was a very goodstudent, he was very diligent

(01:06:29):
and he, he came to theconclusion that it was, you
know, women of a certain age, ofa certain income level that were
the most likely to want this.
Okay.
Excuse me.
And so then we started talkingabout the value proposition and
he was dumbfound, he wasbefuddled for a while.

(01:06:51):
How do you quantify the value ofthat?
Yeah.
And I said, well, just thinkabout it.
Are there any other things outthere?
that are similar in terms of thevalue that they provide.
And a couple of weeks later hecame back and he goes, I think
it's kind of like lifeinsurance.
It's really peace of mind.

(01:07:14):
And so then he started reallyunderstanding the demographic
and psychographic profile of histarget, what they were really
wanting and understanding, youknow, what their needs were and
how to provide that.
And so he spent his firsthundred thousand on really
understanding that more deeply.

(01:07:34):
And then he spent his next 250,000 getting a third party lab
spun up to do some of it.
But it wasn't a long termsolution.
It was to get enough customersto sign up for it, pay for it,
and store their cells so that hecould get a Series A round.
And so, you know, what was sorewarding about that is now he's

(01:07:55):
growing.
You know, he's now getting tothe point where he's building
the infrastructure himself.
He's gotten the funding, seeingwhere he was when he came in and
seeing where he is now.
It's like night and day.
Yeah, that's really cool.
And you know, it was just reallyrewarding to see somebody that
passionate and that open to.
And what was his field?

(01:08:17):
Like, he was obviouslypassionate about the stem cell
technology for some reason?
Yeah, he was a medical student.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
He just probably saw somebody'slife impacted by access to stem
cells.
Well, shouldn't everybody havethis?
Well, in medical studentsespecially, like, my
veterinarian or any veterinarianwill spend all of your money if
it will increase by 1 percentthe chance that your dog lives.

(01:08:38):
Right.
From getting run over by a car.
Right.
Or whatever.
Right.
Like, it doesn't really matter.
Your wallet is to their concern.
Yeah.
Yep.
Um, and it's kind of the natureof medicine in some ways.
One of the things that's thehardest to combat is except for
the risk of being sued for notdoing enough.
So then we test it.
Right.
Every test under the sun, whichagain is spending all your

(01:09:01):
money.
Right.
Uh, anyway, I digress.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, you know, and, and it was.
It was high tech stuff likethat.
Um, you know, we had somebattery technology, we had that
kind of thing, but we also hadsome, you know, just really good
ideas that just needed to get,needed, needed some structure in

(01:09:22):
order to get to market, youknow?
How long were you involved withthis accelerator?
Uh, it was about four years.
Okay.
Yep.
Had to come back to Colorado forfamily reasons.
Yeah.
You're caring for a parent orsomething like that, is that
true?
Yeah.
It has, uh, in the.
Challenges of later life, Iguess.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Did they move down fromLeadville?

(01:09:43):
He moved down right after Igraduated from high school.
Oh, really?
Yeah.
Turns out he thought he wasstaying there for me.
Well, there was more rodeos upthere and stuff.
Right, that's right.
Um, let's uh, I guess, otherbusiness lessons, um, that we
should talk about from theincubator days, or?
Well, I think, um, I mean,building a community like that,

(01:10:04):
I, I met Allison Seebeck earlyin her, uh, time at the
Warehouse Business Accelerator,and it's hard to spin something
like that up, even if you'vegot, you know, Investors that
are eager to support, you know,known demand.
There's just a lot of, a lot ofcomplexity.
Yeah.
And I think, um, you know,there's a couple of things that
make it difficult.
You know, one is, um, especiallywhen you're doing it, like I was

(01:10:27):
in Buffalo, where I had, it wasbasically a double bottom line
investment fund, right?
I had to create, the result hadto be jobs and economic impact,
but I had to get enough returnon that investment to keep the
fund evergreen, right?
So it turns out it can be verydifficult to.
And so, you know, I said earlyon, yes, I'm here to create

(01:10:53):
jobs, but I'm going to be brutalin terms of if the founder is
not a fit, if they're not open,right, they're out.
Right.
If I can't, if they're not opento, to help, they're out.
Yeah.
If their idea sucks and they'renot willing to pivot off of it,
they're out.
Right.
And so that's what that firstthree months was for.

(01:11:14):
And a lot of these places thatare trying to do this.
And are you like working there?
You're coaching them once a weekor something like that, too.
Are you in some other people aswell?
Yeah, I had eventually, youknow, started out with me and a
few other people that worked forme.
Eventually we built the wholeinfrastructure with what we call
the entrepreneurs in residence,where I would hire serial
entrepreneurs for 10 hours aweek and I would assign them in

(01:11:38):
areas where they had expertiseand that kind of thing.
So we built the whole.
a pretty big infrastructurearound.
Well, and you were not attachedto that community.
So that was quite a push.
You must have had somebody,like, connecting you to the
right people with intention.
You know, the funny thing was,they Or they just got drawn to
you.
They, they, they adopted me asone of their own from the
beginning.
It was really cool.
That's neat.
You know, and when I startedshowing results, it was just

(01:12:00):
like a snowball effect.
Yeah, yeah.
You know.
Well, and because Buffalo's, youknow, What, maybe half a million
people or something like that inthe, in the city and maybe a
million, but it's like, in someways it's more of a, you know,
people have asked me where wouldlocal think tank move to next,
you know, and we're localcommunity think tank.
And I hate to say it, but Ithink Buffalo would be a better

(01:12:21):
fitted community than wouldDenver.
Yeah.
Cause there's just more sense ofcommunity kind of, Denver is
kind of this fragmentedamalgamation from all these
different kinds of communitiesand Colorado Springs is even
kind of that way.
It's not really a community.
It's.
Right and different communities,you know, chase them to each
other and I grew up in Coloradoand I love Colorado But the
thing that I realized when Iwent to Buffalo is a lot of

(01:12:43):
people who are in Colorado orfrom somewhere else Mm hmm, and
they're here to live thelifestyle.
Mm hmm And when I went toindividualistic basis, right and
when I went to Buffalo Irealized everybody that was
there was there because theyloved that community and they
wanted to be there Yeah, so itwas a very different vibe.
Yeah, and so everybody was moreYou almost altruistic if you, if

(01:13:04):
you could say, because theyreally wanted to improve the
other people to succeed as muchas anything.
Um, I'm going to propose that wetake a short potty break and
then we'll hit the closingsegments.
Sounds good.
Go from there.
All right.
All right.
Cheers...

(01:14:05):
So the closing segments, uh, asindicated in my overview email,
Faith, Family, and Politics.
Uh, do you have a preference onwhere to start in that
conversation?
Wherever you want.
Um, let's talk about family.
I feel like we could have metyour wife, uh, Along the
journey.
You're still married, I think.
Yes.
Okay.
How many kiddos now?

(01:14:26):
So I have two.
She has three.
Okay.
Yep.
So she brought three.
We just got married about tenyears ago.
Oh, so you had a different wife?
Different wife.
Okay, gotcha.
Well, let's uh, I guess let'sjust open the family topic up to
you.
How did that evolution comealong?
So you've got two with yourfirst wife and she's got three

(01:14:48):
with her first husband together.
Right.
Okay.
Yep.
And, and who's your wife now?
Does she have a name?
Tricia.
Hi, Tricia.
She's the greatest.
She's the greatest.
Okay.
Um, what would she say about youand where did she find you?
Um, so her dad and my dad werefriends.
Oh, really?
So when we were little kids, weplayed together.
Oh, wow.

(01:15:08):
And Um, you know, we'd knowneach other off and on, um, you
know, when we were growing up.
Sure.
We kind of lost touch.
Yeah.
And then, you know, 20 someyears later, we reconnected.
Okay.
You know, and I had two kids andshe had three kids and, yep.
So you came back here to helpcare for your dad.
You have, you've got two sistersas well.

(01:15:30):
Are they also caretaking, you goon shifts and things?
Um, what's that look like?
You know, we're all kind ofpitching in, but they live, you
know, in Colorado Springs and inFlorence area.
And so I'm kind of, You're theprimary.
I'm the primary.
Does your dad live with you?
No, he still lives alone.
Oh wow.
And so, um, he's gotten to thepoint though where, um, you

(01:15:51):
know, I take care of all of hisfinances.
I take care of everything.
Is it Alzheimer's?
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
And so.
I met somebody with LouGehrig's, uh, recently as well,
so I couldn't remember.
Yeah.
And you know, it's, it's, hedoes well if he's in his
routine.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, um, so everything that I dofor him is to keep him in his
routine.
It's, it's my, my grandmother,my dad's mom, uh, passed in that

(01:16:15):
fashion and really up until thelast couple of years, she was
fairly independent as well.
Um, with, again, with, uh.
dad doing a bunch of things tomake sure they got done and
whatever else.
But it's, I think the hardestpart of it is how long it can be
sometimes.
Yeah.
And his, you know, I just foundout recently he has, he has
Alzheimer's combined withvascular dementia, which I don't

(01:16:38):
know the difference really.
I guess I didn't really know thedifference either, but, um, Now,
what's become more predominantis the vascular dementia.
Oh, is that right?
Yeah.
And so, it's progressingdifferently than it would have
if it was only Alzheimer's.
Okay.
And so, he's, I think he's gonnabe able to stay independent
longer.
Oh, okay.
But it's still When they sayvascular dementia, that's more

(01:16:59):
of a blood flow thing?
Yeah.
Yeah.
As contrasted with Alzheimer'sis more of a protein Yeah.
Neuron.
Deficiencies, right?
Or whatever.
Yeah, and he has both.
It's just that the vascular ismore predominant.
I see.
Gotcha.
Yeah Any key things that hetaught you that have applied to
your business career?

(01:17:19):
You know, I think it's You knowhard work and don't blame
others.
Look internally if you're havingproblems.
Yeah, right There's no victims,right?
If you don't like the pathyou're on Then you should do
something.
Yeah, right.
And that's always stuck with.

(01:17:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you know, and then, youknow, just the work ethic Yeah,
you know when I was a kid whenwe were doing Projects on fence
or whatever if I was standingthere with my hands in my
pocket, you know, he's He'd belike There's a million things
you could be doing right now.
There's a broom over there.
There's a shovel over there.
There's something you could bedoing right now.

(01:18:00):
You know, be it, be it pluggedin enough to the situation that
you can figure out what to do.
Right.
And, and, well, that's kind ofthat project based, right?
Yeah.
Or objectives based.
Yeah.
To your point, looking ahead,knowing what he might need next.
Right.
You know, dad, I'm going to goget the wire cutter.
Right.
You know, or we're almost out ofposts here.
I'm going to run back to thetruck and get four more posts.
Exactly.
So we can finish this stretch.
Yep.

(01:18:21):
Yep.
Yep.
But I think, you know, just.
You know, those kinds of thingsreally stuck with me all my
life.
Would you ever consider thatlifestyle of cows and horses and
chickens and pigs and stuff?
No, not so much.
No, I just, you know, it's, itwas a gray.
I, I loved it.
Um, but I started, as Imentioned, I started getting

(01:18:42):
away from it when I, And then Irealized, wow, there's so much
more you can do in life ifyou're not, if you don't have
the, the anchor of, of horsesand cattle at home.
So, um, with you and gosh, I'msorry, Tricia.
Yeah.
Um, are you guys have anygrandkids or anything yet?
Yeah, we do.
Some coming along soon.
Let's see all together.
Maybe we could play the one worddescription of grandkids.

(01:19:04):
Yeah.
Yeah, so we've got, uh, seven.
Oh, that's a pretty good chunk.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, she's, she's got two inSalt Lake.
Her son is in medical school.
Oh, cool.
Actually, he's in his residency.
His last year of residency.
Yeah.
And, um, one's just a baby, so Idon't know about her
personality, but the other oneis just, she's just a

(01:19:27):
firecracker.
Super intelligent, greatvocabulary, you know.
Had like three.
Yeah, right.
Um, anything else when we talkabout family that you'd really
want to make sure we mention?
Um.
You know, I think, you know, forme, I, I haven't necessarily
been driven by success, my lifein my life.

(01:19:47):
It's been about fulfillment, butreally about providing security
for my family.
And, um, you know, it's, it'skind of come full circle with me
that providing security for myfamily and helping others has
kind of started to, to be thething that fills my cup, you
know, and so it's kind ofrelated to the security thing.

(01:20:10):
But it's really helping othersovercome or avoid some of the
mistakes that I've made, andseeing others be successful.
Yeah.
You know, that's really what'sbeen important to me, and
that's, to me it is in some wayrelated to family.
Well, and I think I see to someextent that family is.
Like almost anybody I comeacross, uh, that could use my
help, you know, like some ofthose founders in your incubator

(01:20:33):
were, became almost like familyto you, you cared that much
about their experience, whatthey're, what they could do.
Right, right.
You know, and that's, that'spart of what drew, drew me to
EOS too is, you know, this wholeidea that we help first with no
expectations about gettinganything out of it and
everything else takes care ofitself.
Yeah.
That's pretty cool.

(01:20:53):
Um, faith or politics?
We haven't talked about faith atall so far.
Um, but I suspect that at leastup in the mountains there,
there's kind of a churchycommunity for most people or
maybe not?
Yeah, yeah, I mean I, I grew up,um My, my mom's family was
Catholic.
Okay.
And, um, in order for mygrandmother to approve the

(01:21:18):
marriage with my dad, Yeah,yeah.
all the kids had to be baptizedCatholic.
All the kids, all you kids.
All of us kids.
He didn't.
He wasn't.
He wasn't Catholic.
He, you know, he went to nondenominational churches, you
know, but, um, yeah, so we wentto Catholic church growing up
and, um, you know, I rememberwhen I got old enough to think

(01:21:39):
independently, I remember askingmy grandmother when we were at
mass.
Mainly being a smart aleck, butI would say, Hey, if we don't
stand up and sit down, wheneverthey tell us to do, to do that,
are we going to go to hell?
She got so mad at me, but, um,So you're open to challenging

(01:22:00):
the rules and the bends andwhatever.
I was open to challenging the,you know, yeah.
The, the pomp and circumstanceand all the rules.
And, um, but I always believedin God and I always believed in
a higher power.
Yeah.
And, you know, if I look atwhat's happened to me in my
life, I know that that's true.
Right.
And, um, Once you start to seeprovidence in your life, it's

(01:22:20):
hard not to look at it again.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so, you know, I, I, um, Ithink I've, as I've gotten older
too, the more I've come torealize that there is something
greater than me.
Yeah.
There is a higher power.
Yeah, yeah.
You know.
Um, politics?
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I can tell you myview of politics is right along

(01:22:44):
the line of everything I've saidabout business, which is, I wish
that we could talk about theroot cause of issues, rather
than getting in separate campsand debating solutions.
Right?
You know, like, I wish we couldagree on the facts, agree on the
problem, and then go intosolution space.
Yeah, yeah.

(01:23:04):
But we can't seem to do that,and that's Yeah, it's an
interesting, like, even when youtake it to any of those major,
you know, like, nobody can arguethat the, the inner cities of
too many cities in America are atrap that's really hard to
escape from or to createeconomic solvency from.
Right.
You know, they don't even havea, an affordable supermarket in

(01:23:26):
a lot of these places.
Walmart's pulling out, you know?
Right, right.
Um, I was in St.
Lucia recently, and there's alittle town called, uh, Ons,
Onslauray.
And it's kind of like where allthe poor people live in St.
Not all of them, but, butthere's six or eight thousand
people that live there and theydon't even have a gas station or

(01:23:47):
a proper grocery store.
Um, because it's just noteconomically viable, you know, I
guess, or whatever.
The guy that we were talking tosaid it's kind of politics is
why it's that way.
And maybe it's politics is theway it's that way in Detroit and
was that way in Pittsburgh andBuffalo.
I don't know.
Yeah.
Um, what would you, so thatwould be your main solution is

(01:24:09):
just listen to each other moreand identify the real problem.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, have you ever sat downand, and talk with somebody and.
Just decided you hate thembecause of, no, you've never
done that.
Right?
No.
I mean, only if they decide theyhate me.
Right.
Well, that's really the only,that's really that my only

(01:24:30):
criteria almost.
No, but I mean, you know, we, weall have quite a bit in common
and, um, you know, the otherthing too, you know, I've
traveled outside of the countryand, you know, we went to Mexico
about 10 years ago and there wasthis great kid.
He was a local kid.
He worked at the resort that wewere at.

(01:24:50):
Yeah.
And that kid was super smartand, you know, just a great kid,
but he, you know, he's livinghand to mouth.
He can barely scratch together aliving.
And I'm thinking the onlydifference between him and me is
where I was born and who I wasraised by.

(01:25:11):
Right.
That's the only difference.
And so, you know, I'm prettydamn lucky to have been born and
raised in America.
And I'm proud of that.
Yeah.
I think all of us are.
And if we come from thatfundamental basis, we probably
could, um, we could probablytalk about our differences a
little bit more, um,intelligently.

(01:25:33):
Well, yes, and, like, I don'twant you to discount the fact
that you didn't, you came fromvery humble beginnings as well.
You know.
Yeah, but not, not like thatkid.
No.
True.
True.
Understood.
But your family certainly didn'thave enough extra resources to
scholarship him to come tocollege in America.
No, you know, no So that'sthat's true.

(01:25:57):
But you know, I but I still youknow, it's like the other thing
God God blessed me with somecertain amount of capabilities
to become an engineer.
I was, I didn't do anything.
I was given that.
Sure.
Yeah.
And I'm lucky and thankful.
Well, I think, you know, a lotof people think that even ideas
don't necessarily come from yourbrain.

(01:26:17):
They're like gifted upon you.
Einstein started to wonder abouthow things come to him.
Right, right.
Um, what do you think about kindof the Like we've had a really
interesting, almost shift in thepolitical, you know, in this
most recent election, I thinkroughly two thirds of the
funding went to the, to theDemocratic Party?

(01:26:40):
Or, not two thirds of thefunding, but the, the, the
millionaires and billionairesare funding the Democratic Party
much more so now and, and theRepublican Party has become kind
of the blue collar populistYeah, I can't discuss party of
the working class, and that'sall happened in the last ten
years.
Right.
That, that's the problem withlabels too, right?
Right.
It's You know, I don't know, youknow, it's not the Republican

(01:27:04):
party that we knew in theeighties.
For sure.
No, you know, well, neither isthe democratic party.
Neither is the democratic party.
Yeah.
Right.
They're, they're dramaticallydifferent.
They just have the same name.
Do you think there'll be.
Like further evolution there orI think it's really hard to say
what the Democratic Party's likewho's it who's the next?

(01:27:25):
Stars, you know who the nextBarack Obama is.
Yeah, it's it's really tough totell me who the next Donald
Trump is, too Right, and I thinkso much depends on if he does a
shitty job or a good job, right?
You know if he does a decentlygood job He's probably got the,
the sway to keep those bluecollar, populist kind of voters

(01:27:46):
and, you know, all the Hispanicsand a lot of blacks that have
come on board with the Trumpbrain.
Yeah.
So that's really interesting.
Yeah.
And I think it, a lot of itcomes down to, you know, you
know, people, what people heardduring, during the, the lead up
to the, to the election and howthey internalize that.
Yeah.
Some of it may, you know, maybespin, some of it may be.

(01:28:08):
According to both parties, likeif their party didn't win, this
might be the last election, youknow, so that was the drama was
over the top.
It was over the top.
And I, I tend to, you know, Itend to be more damp than that,
right.
I don't get too high or too low.
Um, you know, I do think we'refundamentally structured to do
the right thing.

(01:28:28):
And, you know, I think, youknow, I, I, I study a lot of
history and I view, you know,there's been times in, in the
past in America where, you know,The world's going to fall apart
if things don't change in thiselection or that election.
And I, you know, I fundamentallythink, you know, America will
eventually do the right thing.
But I do think, I do hope thatwe can start talking about the

(01:28:52):
facts and not opinions and spinson the facts.
Mm.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, and that's been aninteresting, you know, the What
are the facts?
You know, we literally had aministry of truth or a
misinformation bureau orsomething like that set up for
briefly in 2022 or 2021 orsomething like that, right?
You know, that's a dangerousplace to me if, if, uh, somebody

(01:29:14):
becomes the decider, right?
Exactly.
What's true.
Right, right.
So, yeah.
Um, anything else in thepolitical realm you'd like to
make sure you get your chip in?
You're not really thatinterested in that.
No, I'm not affiliated.
I just want to do the rightthing.
Yeah, fair.
Um, did you think about whatyour loco experience was going
to be?
Before coming to this?
Yeah, this is the, uh, thecraziest experience of your

(01:29:36):
lifetime that you're willing toshare with our listeners.
The craziest experience?
The namesake of our podcast.
Well, I've done a lot of crazystuff.
Um, but one thing that might beacceptable to your podcast.
Okay.
Believe it or not, this is thestrangest fact about me.
All right.
I was the foreman of the jury inthe Taylor Swift trial for the

(01:30:00):
DJ in Denver who grabbed her assduring a photo shoot.
Oh, really?
I like it.
Tell me, tell me more.
So it was a federal, it was afederal.
Tell me about the case a littlebit.
Because some people, I rememberit vaguely, but uh, yeah, give
me the bones of the.
Yeah.
So, um.

(01:30:20):
It was, she was in her early,mid twenties, I guess, at the
time.
Um, she was doing a photo shootfor a meet and greet in Denver
for a concert.
Okay.
A DJ was there.
Okay.
And he, after she did the meetand greet and a bunch of photos,
um, he, Wanted to take a picturewith her.

(01:30:43):
Okay, and Allegedly he grabbedher ass During the photo and
they took a picture of it Yeah,okay, so he sued her for using
her celebrity Influence.
Oh to get him fired from theradio station.
Oh damn, so he sued her forthree million dollars.

(01:31:04):
Okay She countersued him for adollar, um, with sexual, for
sexual assault.
Okay.
And so that was what the trialwas.
Yeah, yeah.
And so, we had to, it was a weeklong trial.
To prove beyond a reasonabledoubt that he actually did grab
ass.
No, we just had to prove, it, ithad nothing to do with that.
That's what was so funny.

(01:31:24):
Okay.
We had to decide whether sheused her celebrity Mmm.
Influence to get him fired fromthe radio station.
Right.
And probably not.
Right.
It probably, because she, shejust, all she had to do was say,
Hey, DJ Josh Dumbhead grabbed myass and the station owners were
like, Bye DJ Josh Dumbhead.

(01:31:45):
But it was even, it was evensimpler than that.
She told her manager.
So her management machine, hermanagement machine told the
radio station, they had all the,everything documented what they
told the radio station, theradio station fired him.
Right.
There was a simple case.
Right.
And so, was it simple inmanaging through it as a jury

(01:32:07):
foreman though?
It was difficult in that the,the jury instructions were
pretty complex.
We, we deliberated for fourhours, but three and a half
hours just trying to figure outexactly what we were supposed to
be deciding.
And what the elements of itwere.
And so once we figured that out,then we're like, okay, what do
you get?
You know, let's take a vote.

(01:32:28):
And he's like, we were like, ofcourse she didn't get him fired.
And of course he grabbed herass.
So he has to pay her a dollar.
That's cool.
I appreciate that.
She only countersued him for adollar.
You know, she probably couldhave tried to make it a lot
rougher on him, but, but why?
Yeah.
But it was funny, I showed up, Ishowed up for jury duty, I had

(01:32:48):
no idea.
Was she there?
Yeah.
Yeah.
She was there every day.
Oh, crazy.
Yeah.
I bet she wouldn't be thereevery day if the same thing
happened now.
Maybe, I don't know.
I mean, she was pretty famousthen.
Right.
Huh.
Fascinating.
But, um, yeah.
So, I show up there.
Are you a Swifty?
Actually, I'm not a Swifty, but,um, but I do appreciate what

(01:33:08):
she's done.
Yeah, yeah.
You know What a creator.
Yeah.
But, you know, I show up forjury duty and there's 200
jurors.
We had no idea what we're therefor.
And then I get thisquestionnaire all about Taylor
Swift, and I'm like, what the?
I know nothing.
Yeah, so that's a trivia factabout me that not very many

(01:33:29):
people know.
I haven't been nowhere close tothat close to Taylor Swift, I'm
pretty sure.
Have you been to her concert?
I haven't.
No, not yet.
No.
Well, Rick, I really enjoyedthis conversation.
I hope that, uh, you continue tobe blessed by and be a blessing
to the business community herein Northern Colorado.
I'm really glad to have youhere.
Yep.
Um, is this your longtime home?

(01:33:50):
Oh, yeah.
Uh, yeah.
No, no reason to go back toBuffalo or whatever.
No, no.
Cool.
Well, we're glad to have you andthanks for pouring into our
community.
All right.
Thanks, man.
Take care.
Yep.
We'll do.

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