EXPERIENCE 204 | Building Health on a Strong Foundation - Jane Brewer, Upper Cervical Chiropractor and Owner of Precision Chiropractic - The LoCo Experience

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Jane Brewer grew up in a diverseneighborhood in the heart of New

(00:02):
York City, with a constant heartfor people and service and
adventure.
She signed up for the AmeriCorpsplan to work in supportive
Habitat for Humanity projects,and at 22 revealed that she
didn't have a driver's licensewhen her manager asked her to
drive a truck and trailer to aproject.
A few short years later, shedrove herself to Crested Butte,
Colorado, for a job on a skihill.

(00:23):
and worked a series of smalljobs before landing in 9 1 1
dispatch.
Her journey turned after abeneficial season with a local
chiropractor and an encouragingword, and she landed in the
Front Range of Colorado freshout of chiropractic school in
Atlanta.
This year, she's celebrating 10years of growth and the purchase
of a new office location.
This year, she's celebrating 10years of growth and the purchase

(00:45):
of a new office location.
Jane has been a member of LocoThink Tank for over 5 years and
hers is a story of steadygrowth.
Constant love for her clientsand community and building
healthy lives on strongfoundations.
Enjoy.
Let's have some fun.

(01:08):
Welcome to the Low CoveExperience podcast.
On this show, you'll get to knowbusiness and community leaders
from all around NorthernColorado and beyond.
Our guests share their stories,business stories, life stories,
stories of triumph and oftragedy.
And through it all, you'll beinspired and entertained.
These conversations are real andraw, and no topics are off
limits.
So pop in a breath mint and getready to meet our latest guest.

(01:37):
Welcome back to the LocoExperience podcast.
My guest today is longtime LocoThink Tank member and doctor of
chiropractic Jane Brewer withPrecision Chiropractic, and I
love how you look with your blueteal hat with the blue teal
light in the background.
I do expect color coordinatedlighting on all of my podcasts.

(01:57):
Yes.
Yes.
Well, you said this is yourfirst time One of your first non
Zoom podcasts.
Correct.
Yeah, a lot of the interviewsI've done have been through a
screen, so this is different.
Well, and they're probablylooking for, like, your smart
girl stuff in chiropractic, andparticularly, what is the thing
that you're the expert on?
This is a mouthful.
I have a credential.
It's a DCCJP.

(02:18):
So it stands for Diplomate inChiropractic Cranio Cervical
Junction Procedures.
It just means I'm a head andneck specialist.
Yes.
Yeah.
Oh, in the Atlas.
Correct.
Right.
That's the, that's the Uppermostvertebrae in the spine.
Juncture, okay.
Yeah.
I was trying to remember it,trying to remember it.
Good job.
I did.
Yes.
But not really.
Uh, so You had it, yeah.
So you're one of like, Reallysmall number of people with that

(02:38):
designation, like a few hundredsand thousands, maybe.
Excuse me.
There's been about 60 of us thathave completed the program.
The fourth cohort is goingthrough now, so we'll add to the
ranks here when they make itsuccessfully through the
program.
Oh, wow.
And are you out for two years orsomething?
Yes.
Uh, finished up in 2022.
Okay.
Dang.
I remember sitting down with younear my office when you, took me

(03:02):
through all the steps of tryingto make the decision of joining
that program.
And that was before I was amember.
Oh, is that right?
Oh, that's cool.
Yeah.
I'm glad that that wasimpactful.
I remember that conversation.
I didn't remember how impactfulit was the right decision for
you.
It was.
It was.
And in different ways than I mayhave anticipated in the
beginning, but.
All right.
So, um, I guess let's justintroduce your, your business to

(03:23):
the world here, uh, in anotherway.
another fashion than all theyears, whatever you've done
before.
But, um, what is PrecisionChiropractic all about?
We are a chiropractic clinic andwe provide really specialized
chiropractic services thatreally care for folks with head
and neck issues.
For example, we take care of alot of people with migraines,

(03:45):
headaches, different vertigoconditions.
A lot of folks recovering fromconcussion, traumatic brain
injury, jaw issues, ear issuesbecause of related it is to the
head and the neck.
So, kind of especially for you,compared to a lot of
chiropractors have a reputationas being like a backcracker.
Sure.
Right?
But you're really more of acranial specialist, anything in

(04:05):
that area, the top of the neck.
And it's messing your stuff up.
Yeah, that's my bread andbutter.
And of course the next connectedon down.
You can do the back cracking ifyou need to, whatever is useful.
I, you know, any adjusting thatwe do in my practice, it doesn't
involve much forceful twisting,popping, cracking.
That's a very traditionalchiropractic.
Okay.
method of practice and there'sother ways and what we do,

(04:27):
especially with the upper neck,because it is a very delicate
area.
And in my opinion, it requires avery dedicated and careful
approach to managing and caringfor it, especially in those more
complex cases with people whohave had injuries.
Um, it's a very calculatedadjustment.
It's very gentle.
It is designed for theindividual based on very precise
measurements that we've takenfrom imaging.

(04:49):
And it's an instrument, uh,guided adjustment.
Oh.
with your hands or you mean theinstrument actually?
So there's a instrument thatactually delivers the force
because it's exactlyreproducible every time.
Is it a little plunger thingy?
It's, I'm shocked I haven't beento your, I haven't been through
your chair.
I know.
Well, you're going to, I'm goingto be moving here in the

(05:10):
springtime.
So you'll have to come see ournew office.
I will, uh, I'll pay for anappointment once you get settled
into your new space.
Well, first step, consultation.
Okay.
And that's always complimentary.
Okay.
Perfect.
But yeah, I mean, I take care ofall chiropractic cases and I
would say the most commonreason, of course, people think
to visit a chiropractor is theyhave some kind of neck or back
pain.
That's I think what chiropracticis known for.
Sure.

(05:31):
But.
with what I do, I really lookand it's a little different,
but, um, we really look at theupper neck as a structural
foundation.
And we're not used to thinkingabout the foundation of sitting
at the top.
You know, we don't build a housefrom the ceiling down, but what
I try to do in an initialconsultation with the folks that
come see me is just teach themwhy from a structural and a
neurological perspective, thatif, This is going to sound

(05:53):
silly, but if your head's not onstraight, if your head's not
sitting over top of the rest ofyour spine, everything else is
going to pay the price for it,both from a structural
standpoint, leading to all kindsof postural compensations and
aches and pains elsewhere.
But from a neurologicalstandpoint, that's about as
close to the brain, the sourceof all those signals as you can
get.
And so if you've got anobstruction there, it's going to

(06:13):
create problems downstream aswell.
I've got, uh, And I'm shockedthat I haven't, but I just, I
was, so I, I used to go tochiropractor once in a while
when I was banking, you know, meand Jill both had income and
discretionary and a lot moresitting stuff.
And then I was, you know, foodtracking and completely broke
and then early stage think tankstill completely broke.
Yeah.
Still not wealthy, but I couldget a, you know, a couple of

(06:34):
adjustments if I wanted to, butI've got like a straight neck.
Yeah.
Like probably you've seen that alot of times.
Absolutely.
I still do some of the exercisesthat a chiropractor from 18
years ago told me I could do totry to help progress for sure.
And that curve in the neck isreally important.
We developed that in infancy.
That's why tummy time is soimportant for babies.
When babies start to pick theirhead up and tilt their head up,

(06:57):
that's when that curve develops.
Well, I assume my brain isheavier than most people's.
You got a big noggin.
Well, I was thinking I'm extrasmart.
Oh, big brain, heavy head.
Just big melon.
So, uh, what's your team isyou're the only doctor I am the
only doctor currently And we'vealways been a two person team.
I've always had one right handwoman.

(07:19):
So for 10 years, I've employedjust three incredible people who
have become really closefriends.
And I feel like that's reallyspecial too, to create that
opportunity for somebody else.
So.
We've always been a two personteam as I move into this new
office that I keep mentioning.
Yeah, yeah.
I will hire a second clinicalassistant because it'll help

(07:39):
free me up to do some of thethings that only I could do.
But still, probably you'll staythe only doctor you have
interest in.
I, you know, I, I do.
And I think There's a couplemotivations behind me wanting to
bring in an associate doctor.
First is, of course, for them.
You can take a vacation withoutyour clients missing you.
Yeah, that's, that's a big dealon my end.
I'm sure.
That time freedom.
For lifestyle.
It's, when I choose to leave,it's a very intentional choice

(08:01):
because, you know, again, twosides of that coin too, my
patients aren't getting the carethat they need and I have no
income.
Yeah, yeah.
And by going back to maybehiring another doctor, I've
applied with two of thechiropractic colleges, um, All
I, as far as I know, all of thechiropractic schools require you
do some kind of externship orclinical experience before you

(08:21):
graduate.
Try before you buy that way.
Exactly.
So with the two, the school thatI went to and another school
that's located in SouthCarolina, I've applied now to
host interns.
So I think the next time I do godown that path, they will have
to spend at least, you know, aquarter.
In my office.
Yeah, yeah, not on my dime,right but also to see if we're
good match for each other Yeah,for sure.

(08:42):
Well, they want that too.
Yeah, because I Mean mostchiropractors eventually want to
have their own practice Or maybenot.
I maybe it used to be that way,you know 20 years ago or
something, but maybe it's not asmuch I'm not sure either and
there's a few options, buteither way they can't do it
right out of school It was whatI was going to say.
Like, they're just not smartenough.
I know, but you're an unusualperson.

(09:06):
Plus you were, you were olderthan average.
So you already had lifeinteraction skills and stuff.
You're not like, excuse me, sir.
Can I be your chiropractor?
In the line of the grocerystore.
Excuse me.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Um, so tell me about this new,you're buying a building.
You're buying a space.
Was it a building?
A condo space?

(09:26):
Where is it at?
After 10 years of.
paying somebody else's mortgageand I'm going to be paying my
own.
So I feel really proud aboutthat.
Well, you should feel proudabout that.
And we're going to be moving inthe springtime.
I've got an awesome contractor,actually, this connection
pathway through loco, which ispretty cool.
Awesome.
And you can, you can say theirname if you.
Oh, so through Moses Horner, ourchapter facilitator, he

(09:48):
introduced me to Josh Mathis,who owns Projects Limited.
So he's going to be doing mytenant finish.
Yeah.
I'm not familiar, but.
Yeah.
Super good guy.
And it's been awesome workingwith him so far.
But.
I'll be moving in thespringtime.
Our new office is going to bejust a straight shot five miles
north.
So currently I'm near Shields inSentara.
Right.
Like by the Bonefish andwhatnot.
And so if you drive five milesnorth on County road five, so

(10:09):
past crossroads and we're like,The ranch is okay fuzzies.
Yeah.
Yeah, and you keep going northbefore you hit 392 it Yeah,
right Windsor exit like wherethe ice rink is exactly so it's
in the business It's in thebuilding this part just north of
the Better Business Bureaubuilding.
Okay, the BBB.
Yeah, I'm there all the timeYeah.
You'll have to come say hi.

(10:29):
Um, you could lobby Moses tomove your chapter right there.
Okay.
But then it'd be kind ofawkward.
You're like, I just have to goacross the hall.
No.
I like coming up to Old TownFort Collins.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah.
I live in Fort Collins.
I love to come up here.
Cool.
But you would have room in thisnew space if you wanted to add
a, uh, you, you mentioned thatanother clinical associate would
be first.
Yes.
So my next hire is going to beanother clinical assistant, as

(10:53):
far as, you know, somebodythat's going to help.
chart for me, help direct theflow of patient traffic in the
office and just free my time upto actually just focus on caring
for people and do the clinicalthings that only I'm licensed to
do.
And so I'll have more, one moreadministrative focused assistant

(11:13):
and one more clinical focusedassistant.
They'll be cross trained.
So one of them can take avacation or have a few days off.
Well, that's important for justquality of life and stuff too.
You know, one of the interestingthings is, uh, Like with local
think tank, um, we don't reallyhave to make the sausage, right?
The machine kind of runs.
And so Alma had, um, Come backfrom a little trip and then

(11:37):
she's trying to plan a trip nextNovember to Japan Oh my gosh,
awesome And then I grew up witha group of eight or something
But all these other people arelike, you know I don't know if I
can get enough hours and my bossis gonna be cool with me being
gone for ten days in a row andthis and that and like You see
like local think tank is coolthat way.
Yeah, like I'm like I'm proudthat she's sacrificing some

(11:58):
lifestyle to take a trip toJapan.
Yeah.
A couple of years ago, I decidedto effectively salary, I guess,
my office manager because I dotake a lot of time off.
A few years ago, I was takingtime off to travel for my double
mate program, and I speak at alot of conferences.
And, uh.
Every so often we take apersonal vacation, and it just
never felt right to me to havean employee that would suffer my

(12:21):
insane schedule and be like,sorry about your paycheck.
I'm going to be out of town thisweek.
And so my office manager nowgets It's steady hours, same
paycheck every two weeks, nomatter whether, you know,
there's some weeks we put in,exactly.
Yep.
And some weeks we have a lotmore time off.
And so it's just a nice to nothave me worry about it and not

(12:42):
have them worry about it.
Yeah.
That's cool.
That's smart.
Um, So sometime this spring,April, May or something like
that.
Just depending on how thingsflow.
I think actually in two weeks,we scheduled a date where I'm
going to go in there and I'llput on a hard hat and some
glasses, and we're going tosmash some walls and windows and
just demo and get ready toactually build it out.
I worked with a.
I'm a consultant for a law firmin Atlanta that helps design

(13:05):
floor plans for chiropracticpractices.
So I've learned a lot from beingin my space for 10 years about
how things should flow in theoffice and where things should
be located and kind of thejourney of the patient from when
they walk through the door andthey stop at the front desk.
And this is where a new patientgoes.
This is where an establishedpatient goes.
So it's laid out in much smarterway.
Yeah, perfect.
Um, and what was yourchiropractic school, by the way?

(13:26):
I went to life universityoutside of Atlanta, Georgia.
Okay.
Okay.
And then they're affiliated ornot at all with the South
Carolina one that you could alsotake people from independent,
just similar, you'd like theirstyle, like their values.
I do like they are, uh, morephilosophically based
chiropractic, you know, you'llfind there's chiropractors of
many different flavors, I guess.
And honestly, some of theschools, their focus isn't even

(13:48):
a whole lot of adjusting, whichis pretty Mind boggling to me,
because that is the one uniqueskill that as chiropractors we
offer to people.
And even under the fat umbrella,there are many different ways to
adjust the spine.
But if you're not doing that,you're not doing the one thing
that we're, So if you're justadjusting without having

(14:10):
measured first kind of, you'relike, well, I don't know where
we started.
I don't know where we're going.
That's exactly right.
We'll just do some cracky,cracky and get you on every two
weeks schedule.
Yeah.
We do a lot of objective outcomemeasuring in my office, a lot of
pre and post testing because Imean, If anything else, like, if
nothing else, I want to knowthat I'm influencing the change

(14:31):
that I set out to make.
Of course that's important tothe people I'm taking care of,
too.
You know, pain levels are, youknow, after three months, the
pain levels are down 75%.
Right.
What graded that?
Um, and range of motion is, youknow, this much more, that kind
of thing.
Totally.
So, Dutch people that are, um,Chiropractic skeptics, uh,
maybe, maybe that comes fromyour own journey or what you've

(14:55):
seen, um, since becoming achiropractor, because I think
there's a lot of people, like, Iwouldn't, I'm just kind of,
Poor, a little bit poor, mostlycheap, you know, so I've, and
I've taught myself how to try todo yoga and stretches and
different things to be morehealthy care.
I don't really have, I don'thave migraines, I don't have

(15:16):
neck pain, thank the Lord, youknow.
Yeah.
So I'm going to start out bysaying, I think the spine is a
really strange blind spot whenit comes to healthcare.
And I don't think it's managedvery well.
You know, it's like, we allthink.
To get our teeth cleaned.
It's like our wiring harness,basically.
Can we all get our eyes checked?
We get our hearing checked.
We have blood work done.

(15:37):
The spine is a huge blind spotin that system, and like you
just mentioned, it protects themost important thing we have,
without which everything elsewould actually cease to function
correctly.
Right, right.
And so, And these are conceptsthat I learned, I would say, in
my early 30s.
I, like you mentioned before, Iwas older when I went to school.
I started chiro school when Iwas 32 years old.

(15:57):
I had an art degree.
And so I didn't really have evena whole lot of science
experience.
I just had a personal lifechanging experience with my own
care, which inspired me to go toschool.
I just saw that at its purestplace, chiropractic just makes
sense, that the spine houses thecentral nerve system.

(16:18):
I tell my patients, think aboutit like the electrical wiring
system in your body.
And you've got the source up inthe brain and those nerve
pathways, it's kind of likedriving on I 25 every day.
We've got three lanes now.
When all three lanes of trafficare moving, life is good.
We get from point A to point Befficiently.
We arrive at our destination,life is good, right?

(16:41):
But if there's an obstructionthere, if there's an obstruction
in one lane, two lanes, ifthere's an accident, if you
know, it's snowed and theyhaven't plowed and there's an
obstruction there, it's going totake you longer.
It's going to be more dangerous.
The conditions aren't as ideal.
It's a really similar concept.
If the brain isn't able tocommunicate over those neural
pathways, then some kind offunction, and those nerves

(17:04):
control everything, everymovement we make, everything we
sense and feel, how we connectwith the world outside of
ourselves, and how everythinginternally is regulated.
And if there's an obstruction inthose neural pathways, something
is going to result in a loss offunction there.
Do chiropractors make adifference?
People with autoimmune disorderssometimes?
Certainly.
When you think, you know, firstof all, you've got the whole gut

(17:27):
and brain access, right?
Right.
And so the brain Has a hugeneural network, not only in the
spine, but throughout the entirebody.
And you know, autoimmunity isjust a failure of the body to
recognize what is innate.
And what is a foreign invader,right?
And so it's not that we treatthose things directly.

(17:49):
You know, I'm not.
an immunologist, I'm not acardiologist, like, but we do
work with this underlying neuralnetwork that coordinates the
function of all those things.
And I will tell you, in the 10years I've been doing this, I
have seen people's, uh, Crohn'sdisease or, you know, other
autoimmune conditions improve,you know, objectively, you know,
they'll go to their medicaldoctor and their blood work has

(18:11):
changed.
And it's like, cool, your body'sregulating itself a bit better.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's great.
Okay, cool.
I, uh, I don't know if I'vetalked to you about, probably
not, but I've had, I saw you hada hitch in your giddy up.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Which I believe is, is psoriaticarthritis.
I've had psoriasis a couple oftimes in the last few years,
like on the skin, even now intomy elbow, there's a little

(18:33):
psoriasis thing.
Right.
Yeah.
But I believe that Um, in thiscase, in last winter, last
November, um, it's been causingme swelling in my knee.
Some joint issues.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And there's like a, like alittle surface almost over my
kneecaps.
There's a little popping andclicking that shouldn't be
there.
Me too.
But for different reasons.
Well, yeah.
Mine's not scheme related oranything.
I don't think.

(18:53):
Um, but it's, it's because, youknow, something in my body is
kind of telling this area to dosome stuff that it shouldn't
want to be doing.
Or maybe it's not managinginflammation as optimally as it
should.
Right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's.
It's true.
We're not taught to think aboutour bodies in this way.
Nobody thinks, Oh, my knee'sfeeling a little inflamed.
I should go have my neckchecked.
Right.
Well, I should probably go toget some acupuncture would be as

(19:16):
useful.
All of that works with thosenatural, innate capacity of our
body.
Exactly.
To heal itself because truly.
That's how it all happens.
We, we heal ourselves.
It's better if it's that way.
Otherwise, you just kind of gethooked on steroid shots every
nine months or whatever.
Truly, that's not healing.
That's, that's more of a patchthan a fix.

(19:38):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, it gets you out of thewoods and there's, don't get me
wrong, there's a time and aplace for everything.
But I think a lot of the folksthat come to me, and every so
often I even have somebody thatwalks through my door, they're
like, I feel great and I justwant to keep it that way.
It's like awesome.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I've been to actually the,you know, Um, the doctor that
started Life University inMarietta, Georgia, Dr.
Sid Williams, he was just hugepersonality, you know, you got

(20:02):
this big booing Southern voiceand I actually had the privilege
of knowing Dr.
Sid and he passed away, um,while I was actually in
chiropractic school.
That's, it's okay.
But he, you know, he would saythese things and some of them
would just stick with you andhe'd be like, you either pay now
or you pay later.
And there's a truth to that, youknow, it's, it's hard to

(20:24):
measure.
Or impossible to measure whatmight not happen later on down
the road because you had theopportunity to take care of
yourself now.
So it is in that way, a littlebit abstract, right?
It can be chiropractic.
It can be, you know, justspending that 30 minutes a day
exercising.
It can be drinking one extraglass of water every day.
Like it doesn't have to beanything complicated or

(20:44):
expensive.
That was water.
Oh no, yours is tequila too.
Just kidding.
Um, so I guess, and I want toget into your personal
particular story and get thedeets on that, but like, since
you've been practicing, do youhave the authority to share like
some real dramatic storieswhere, you know, you were the

(21:06):
main thing that caused somebodyreally dramatic changes?
Yes.
And I always want to, Make surepeople No, I want to make sure
people understand that I'm justa facilitator in that process.
I know what to do and when to doit to restore their body's
inborn recuperative abilities,right?

(21:28):
And so if I take credit for allthe good stuff, I've got to take
credit for the ones that didn'twork too.
And I do, you know, but thething is, Everybody's different.
So to answer your question, um,that was my little asterisk at
the beginning.
Yeah.
My little caveat.
It's not a magic bullet alwaysin some situations.
What people do the 99.
9 percent of the time they'reoutside of my office also has a

(21:49):
huge impact on how their bodiesfunction too.
Two bags of Doritos every nighton the couch.
Right.
It isn't going to matter howmany adjustments they get every
month.
I think chiropractors are neveras nerdy as when we're in
school, like, and we're studentsand we're just on chiropractic
island and surrounded by peoplewho really think the same way.
But, you know, we would eat oursalad at lunch and be like, this
broccoli is going to become myeye tissue tomorrow.

(22:12):
But, yeah, you know, That's,that's those, I think from the
outside looking in, they wouldbe called these miracle cases,
right?
Those are the things that keepme really fired up about what I
do.
And honestly, even the littlethings that get better, like the
person that could check theirblind spot easier because they
could turn their head better,like that lights me up too.

(22:32):
But man, through the years, likeI've seen folks go into
remission from MS, like they'vehad post MRI scans, and those
lesions have healed.
gone away or reducedsignificantly.
That's pretty cool.
Along with the associatedprobably increase in just
functionability quality of life.
And to me that, like, that'sreally what it boils down to is

(22:52):
the quality of life piece.
Right.
So that's, that was really cool.
Um, I also was caring for a momwho, She did great.
She had a lot of TMJ issues thatcleared up really well, but I
was talking to her.
She was on my table one day andshe said, Oh, my son, he was,
uh, getting towards the end ofhigh school.
And he was a really talentedbaseball player, like was
looking to get recruited bycolleges.

(23:14):
And she said, man, he's, he'snot doing well.
He was in a massive collision inthe outfield.
Like, I think he had theimpression of that other kid's
braces, like in his forehead andhe had a pretty serious
concussion.
And I was like, Oh my gosh, youneed to bring him to me.
Right.
And so she did the very nextday, she brought the son in and
we did our imaging and she'slike, he just hasn't been
himself.

(23:34):
He hasn't been sleeping.
He's not, you know, even closeto being able to function to go
back to school.
I mean, the kid was in a badway, real serious concussion.
And so did imaging.
And what happens, you know, Imeasure the imaging, I craft an
adjustment, there's veryspecific angles and measurements
that we, we create for theindividual.
inflammation within there that'sholding it out of place on the

(23:56):
spine or something?
Well, if you've hit your headhard enough to create a
concussive force, there's no wayyou, you know.
It didn't knock your neck out ofalignment.
So it's, the spine is out ofalignment and it's like, what
is, is it muscles that aresupposed to keep it in
alignment?
Yeah.
There's muscles, there'sligaments, but the, you know,
when it comes to concussion,there's a lot of factors there
and it's really cool.
I read a lot of research, butthere, is a lot that connects

(24:18):
with fluid dynamics.
And so by that, I mean, bloodflow to the brain, that blood
flow brings oxygen, nutrients,creates healing.
That's part of even like thebalancing is kind of the
pressure, like having for thetire pressure balance on both
sides.
And we have cerebrospinal fluid.
And the more that we start tounderstand about the purpose of
CSF, it, it's like, the scrubbrush for the neural tissues in

(24:42):
our body.
And so it, it basically washesall of the These things are
regenerating all the time.
Right.
It washes all of the, you know,the plaques and all of the
metabolic waste products thatcan accumulate in those tissues.
And by the way, those have beenDead white blood cells.
No, been implicated in someneurodegenerative diseases like
Parkinson's, Alzheimer's,dementia, that's all abnormal
protein deposits in the brain.

(25:03):
And anyways, that CSF shouldflow and it should those tissues
healthy.
So back to the kid, when youknock your neck out of
alignment, it can almost like acork in a bottle start to create
a less than optimal flow.
So anyways, going back to thatkid, he was not doing well.
Moral of the story is, I got himadjusted.
We have our patients, we have astabilization room where
patients get to rest in thesezero gravity chairs.

(25:25):
It's super comfy, it's reallyrelaxing, but it also serves the
purpose of stabilizing theadjustment.
So we tucked him in for 10 or 15minute rest after the
adjustment, and he fell asleepfor what the mom said was like
the first time in I think it wasthree or four days since he had
his accident.
And I was like, did we leave himin there for longer?
She's like, can we?
I'm like, we can leave him inthere as long as you need to.
And so after about, I wasthinking about 45 minutes to an

(25:46):
hour.
We woke him up.
I post checked him.
Everything looked great.
I said, I'm going to, I toldhim, I'm going to text you
tomorrow morning and just checkin with you and see how he's
doing.
And so I texted him on the nextmorning.
And he texted She's like, hewoke up and he's himself.
I saved that text messagebecause and I think we were
talking before we startedfilming But I'm not a crier.
Like that's not how I express myemotions But that one that one

(26:08):
hit me right in the feelsbecause what does that mean for
the trajectory of this kid'slife?
Right, and so he got back to it.
She's like we now have toBasically stop him from doing
more than he should be doingright now and he went in he was
there's an incredible clinic inTown called the Asha brain
clinic.
Okay, and they deal of coursewith a lot of folks that are
healing from TBIs and concussionand so I got a phone call from

(26:32):
one of the providers over thereThey're like we need to know
what you did to this kid And Isaid, he went in for some
testing after his injury, andthen he went in for another
round of testing.
And he tested not only normalfor a teenager in his grade
level, but better when he hadbombed all the testing prior.

(26:53):
And so that just opened up areally cool door to, and this
ties into your question beforeabout chiropractic skepticism.
We kind of went off the railswith that, but it's really cool
to, uh, you have those doorsopen.
And I also credit some of mymore advanced training to be
able to have these conversationswith other healthcare providers,
MDs, neurologists,endocrinologists, to sit toe to

(27:14):
toe with them and explain, thisis why physiologically these
results are happening.
This is how we accomplish thatoutcome.
These are the steps that wetook.
It didn't really, it didn't everinvolve me picking somebody's
head up, twisting it and hopingfor the best.
It was a very gentle,calculated, precise correction.
And the goal isn't to see ourpatients twice a week for the

(27:36):
rest of their lives.
The goal is to get them asstable and as few adjustments as
possible, to teach them torecognize the signs when things
aren't quite right.
So they can come in and gettuned up.
But yeah, this, that just wentall over the place.
No, I think that it's actuallysets up my next question, which
is like, how old is yourbusiness now?
10.
It'll be 10 years this year.
Okay.
In July.
So 10 years is not quite nineand a half now.

(27:59):
Yeah.
In business.
I graduated 10 years ago, but Iopened my business July of 15.
So.
Like, talk to me about theprocess of finding, cause if
you're, if you're actuallyfixing people.
Right.
And you don't have a supervisible location necessarily,
like you're always going to findnew people to keep your practice
growing, I imagine.
Or do you equip your customersto be really comfortable with

(28:20):
referring you?
Or how, what has been your mixof finding customers for your
practice?
Initially, I did a lot ofnetworking.
I remember.
In the beginning.
I saw you at a lot of places.
Oh my gosh.
I always think about, uh.
I'd never see you aroundnetworking anymore.
It's like Fight Club, right?
Yeah.
And like, they were going aroundto all these different meetings,
right?
I was like, it's like networkingFight Club.
And you just, you have to showface.

(28:40):
And it's not that you arenecessarily recruiting your
patients from these things, butyou want to be the person they
think about when their neighborhas a migraine or their friend
gets into a motor vehicleaccident or whatever it is.
You want to be that top of mind.
Go to place.
And especially because I havethis little niche within
chiropractic, like if somebodyhas a head or neck issue, there
literally isn't anybody betterin Northern Colorado.

(29:03):
And it's weird to toot my ownhorn like that, but it's, Just
the truth.
So now, like you said, thingshave evolved, right?
After 10 years, you do establishmore of a reputation.
I get a ton of referrals fromother healthcare providers, so
that's wonderful.
And then of course, with ourpatients, the results speak for
themselves too, when they startfeeling better.
better and noticing theseimprovements in their day to day

(29:24):
lives.
They refer their spouse.
And they tell the story at work.
And then six months later,somebody at work is like, Hey,
Marcy, who was that chiropractoryou saw?
And it's awesome.
Of course for me and for mybusiness, but it's awesome for
them too, because now theircoworker doesn't come in
complaining every day or theycome home to their spouse.
And you know, I've, those arepieces of feedback that I've

(29:45):
gotten to like kids have said tome, like, thank you for making
my dad happier again.
Like, he comes home and he'sexcited to play with me on the
floor and, you know, do stuff.
It's, it's really cool.
My goal is to try to make youcry here tonight.
It's not going to work.
I might, I don't know.
We'll see.
We'll see how this goes.
I can see how pointed myquestions can get.
Uh, well, congratulations onapproaching.

(30:06):
When did you get out of school?
Like I graduated from schoolDecember of 2014.
So I just kind of right therenow.
About seven months.
We landed.
My husband, Wes, and I, we livedin Colorado for about eight or
nine years before we moved toAtlanta.
So I go to school and we prettymuch always knew Colorado would
be where we returned to.
But Front Range was totally new.

(30:27):
We lived on the Western Slopeand we were ski bombing it.
It was wonderful.
Talk to me about More about thebusiness of chiropractic, maybe.
Yeah.
Um, we talked a little bit aboutacquiring clients, you know, you
didn't, you know, you could, asa new business, you can spend
all your money on marketing andnobody, nobody even hears you.
I want to mention one thingbefore we move on.

(30:47):
Um, you know, you were sayinglike, of course, patients will
have a natural life cycle, so tospeak, but I will tell you most
of our patients, when we get tothe end and we do a progress
exam, we actually put everythingup side by side.
This is where we started.
This is where we've ended up.
And that kind of is the,Evidence, right?
That things have changed tosupport how they're feeling.
Yeah.
Also, like I would say the vastmajority of our patients choose

(31:08):
to come in usually about once amonth to just have their spine
checked.
Yeah, that's what I was going tosay.
Just a little tune up.
Exactly.
Just make sure.
It's peace of mind.
Which is a hundred bucks thesedays?
Not even.
Not even.
Not even, Kurt.
Okay.
Alright.
Um.
Yeah, and I think it just makessense.
They've, uh, made the initialinvestment and they feel
motivated to protect the gainsthey made and also they feel

(31:29):
good and they want to stay thatway.
Well, I might even book a checkin appointment before your new
location is open.
Okay.
But I'll come in for my actualwork in the new place.
Well, you should come see mycurrent office.
It was a good home for us forten years.
I've been to your currentoffice.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, two, three times.
Perfect.
Yeah, that's right.
Mostly to drop off, like, uhChristmas gift or things like
that.
Um.

(31:49):
I, you asked me a question.
Oh, business y stuff.
Like the business ofchiropractic.
We've talked about your smallteam kind of, but like you're
the, basically the, the revenueall flows through your fingers.
It does.
You're doing the thing.
Yep.
And from the beginning I knewchiropractors, I mean that
title, our education, the reasonwe have that degree.

(32:12):
We have become.
educated in being essentiallydoctors of the nervous system.
And we access that through thespine, right?
And so I, see a tremendous valuein that.
That's a great phrasing.
I hadn't really heard it putquite like that.
Yeah.
Um, but when you say it thatspecifically, yeah.
It's true.

(32:32):
Right.
Well, I mean, a nutritionist iskind of a doctor of the food you
eat.
Right.
Whatever.
Like there's all thesespecialties and saying it in
that fashion.
Totally.
I think people understand maybe.
Yeah.
And it makes sense to me thatway, but, um, so anyway, well, I
don't know the business ofchiropractic.
I always knew like, you know,there's, I have a buddy, can I
say a bad word?
It's not even a bad word.

(32:53):
Um, It's I grew up in New Yorkcity.
That was like my first language.
I really have to try to filterthings out sometimes, but a
really good friend and colleagueof mine, Dr.
Bill Lord and who practices inConnecticut.
Um, he.
loves to say there's an ask forevery seat.
Okay.
And they're like there is therethere's a time and a place for

(33:14):
everything and everyone andthere are a lot of chiropractic
clinics that will throw out likethey'll dangle the 17 new
patient special or 39 allinclusive Well, the walk ins
welcome kind of things on Right,and there's nothing wrong with
that.
And I would say sometimes ifyou're just looking for like a
quick, you know, Hey, I need,I'm feeling pretty tight, or I

(33:36):
need to increase range ofmotion, or I've got a little
muscle spasm, or just lookingfor that temporary pain relief,
okay.
You know, you do that, but Ijust knew with the specificity
of what I do, we're just goingto charge a fair value based fee
for our services.
We're not going to offer anydiscounts, we're not going to do
sales, and I'm not going tobargain with people.

(33:56):
I think it's so interesting.
I would never go into mydentist's office and be like,
Oh, well, your fee is 129.
Would you take 70 and I'll payyou cash?
I'm like, no, our fee's our fee.
And.
So, I don't know if that's Areyou covered by insurance?
I, you know, we are not innetwork with any insurance
providers with the exception ofMedicare.
Um, Okay.

(34:17):
I, you know, if you're apracticing chiropractor and
you're going to see patientsover 65, you need to accept
Medicare.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, and I do accept someMedicare patients.
I have to be Yeah, aware of howmany because the reimbursement
rates are pretty invisible.
Oh, is that right?
Yeah.
Yeah But insurance is a wholedifferent beast.
So we are a fee for servicefacility If our patients do have
coverage we can give them knockthe documentation You know, they

(34:38):
could submit directly we justtake ourselves out of the
middle.
It just keeps it simple foreverybody yeah, same thing
probably with like even carcrashes or different situations
like that where insurance mightbe paying for that kind of
stuff.
Yeah.
I, you know, I just dipped mytoe in the water.
I, you know, we had an existingpatient that was in a motor
vehicle accident.
They asked if I would try tobill their med pay through their

(34:59):
insurance.
And I, I tried and I said,listen, I, I can't, we're two
people, like some biggeroffices, they have billing
departments.
They have somebody that's abilling specialist.
I just can't do that.
But I was just wanting to run,um, My business in a way that
was fair, that was lean, and itjust made sense.
And those aren't the skills thatyou learned in school.
And so I learned a lot fromfriends and people who were on

(35:23):
the path before me that helpedme avoid the major pitfalls, but
a lot of it's trial by fire andjust figuring it out.
And also just, I try to just bea good person.
Right.
I think that goes a long way.
Well, and you strike me as thekind of person that's probably,
it's hard for you to spend morethan you, you know, Earned kind
of like philosophically, maybethat's not true.
I, you know, it's interestingwhat starting a business does to

(35:45):
your money mindset, like what Iused to think was like a lot of
money, right?
I don't think it's a lot ofmoney anymore.
My rent is, you know, what Iused to pay as my gross income.
100%.
And so it's cool, like it's coolto expand your mindset in ways
like that.
And being a business owner, Ithink does that in a lot of ways

(36:07):
if you let it, but, um, what'sthe investment for a
chiropractic degree kind ofthing for enough, like to get
through school.
So I graduated with about 185,000.
And I will tell you, because ofinterest rates on student loans,
I probably owe like 50, 000 morenow than when I graduated and

(36:28):
I've never missed a payment.
The system is rigged, man.
Oh, that's so gross.
It's okay.
Yeah.
And, you know, there's, uh, Ijust listened to a really
interesting book called A HappyPocketful of Money.
And it was this whole like moneymindset thing, but it was all
rooted in quantum physics.
It was super interesting and areally quick, easy read if
anybody listening has anyinterest in any of that.

(36:49):
But it really was about how tochange your mindset about money
and money.
It's all just energy, right?
If, if, if we hold it too tight,it's not going to flow to us
either.
And so I think that's somethingthat being a business owner has
taught me is that, you know.
It's like some people will sayyou gotta spend it, you gotta
spend it to make it.
Yeah, yeah.
I think there's some truth tothat.
Yeah, yeah.

(37:09):
I, uh, I've been saying lately,especially since like the
European energy crisis stuff andwhatever, that, uh, energy is
more like money than money islike money.
Because you can't just printenergy.
Right.
Right.
You got to dig it out of theground or collect it from the
sun or spin the little blades orit's going to be harvested from
somewhere from somewhere it'sgoing to take some effort, you

(37:31):
know, which is why gold used tobe money wasn't that easy to
find.
You had to freaking look hardfor it.
So that took energy.
Uh, same kind of thing, likeyou're talking about here.
Yeah, it's true.
Um, so a little bit, a littlebit probably on the business,
uh, lessons.
Have you, you mentioned three,uh, real strong associates so

(37:53):
far in 10 years almost, or nineplus years.
Exactly.
So that's pretty impressive.
It's, it's awesome.
And I wish I could have kept allof them for different reasons.
And I also acknowledge that likepeople pursue their own dreams.
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, and then you also had a, uh,an associate doctor.
For a very short period of time.

(38:13):
Okay.
And that was at this past year?
Oh gosh.
No, I think that was in 2023.
Okay.
Yeah.
And was this, this wasn't anintern?
It wasn't?
No, I.
Somebody that had beenestablished.
Had hired a fairly new grad.
Okay.
And I like to think of it as myvery expensive learning

(38:33):
experience.
Fair enough.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was, it was difficult.
It, you know, I think it, Asmuch as you try not to take
those things personally, and youjust realize people are going
through their own shit.
And that's a reflection of thechoices that they make.
Um, it was, it was, It wassomething that I thought about
every single day after ithappened.
It just was very hurtful.

(38:54):
And, you know, I think I tried,I set a place at the table, like
a salary kind of thing, and thenthey had to eat, but they didn't
really have an incentivenecessarily build their base.
Well, it was, yeah, a littlemore to it than that.
I think in the beginning, wedidn't really even get through
the phase where they weretrained enough to be able to see
patients on their own way kindof thing.

(39:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so it was pretty shortlived.
I, I learned a lot from thatexperience, uh, things I will do
differently in the future when Igo down that road again.
And I'm to the point where Idon't think about it every
single day.
Right.
So that's a good thing.
Well, it's a nice thing about achiropractic.
Businesses, you can be, if youcan be efficient with your time,
you can see a lot of patients ina day.
For sure.
I see an average day is probablyabout 40 patients.

(39:38):
Wow.
Okay.
So that's quite efficientalready.
Peopling.
Yeah, that's exactly.
Dang.
I didn't really realize thescope of that.
And those are establishedpatients, new patient
interactions.
Of course we sit down with them.
Yeah.
But otherwise we're just in theflow and we're seeing folks that
are on the path.
Yeah.
We're just moving and grooving.
Yeah.
Um, so I feel like probably wecould jump in the time machine.

(40:02):
Um, does it make sense to go allthe way back or should we go
back to the origin story?
I was born on a Monday.
The question I really wanted toask was, was the person that
Impacted your life inchiropractic also a She was not.
upper cranial person?
Or how did you Upper cervical.
Upper cervical?
That's okay.
How did you get that specialtydirection going?
So I was living in CrestedButte.

(40:24):
Okay.
And live in the Lifestyle thatcomes along with that.
I was, you know, probably skieda hundred plus days in the
winter and learn how to mountainbike when I lived out there.
Like I said, I was a city kid.
What did you do for money?
I worked for the ski area forseveral years, right?
So I did a year of AmeriCorpsafter.
Okay.
undergrad, because it turns outour degree didn't prove to be

(40:46):
terribly useful.
AmeriCorps was super, uh, thatwas pretty cool.
That's why I got involved withHabitat for Humanity.
So anyways, yeah, I worked, Ivolunteered with a, uh,
AmeriCorps team on a Habitathouse some years ago.
Yeah.
Very cool.
So yeah, that was my, and that'show I ended up on the board of
directors here.
Okay.
But anyways, um, moved acrossDubuque through just crazy set

(41:07):
of life circumstances and, youknow, it, those were fun years,
right?
You know, the early.
And I was just crashing all thethings I was crashing, learning
how to ski.
I was crashing, learning how toride a bike, how to date boys.
Yeah, that too.
That was, yeah.
Maybe you had one already.
I don't know.
Uh, no, the Crested Beauty, atleast back then, that was 20
years ago.

(41:27):
There was the saying, the, theodds are good for women.
The odds are good, but the goodsare odd.
And that was totally true.
Although I did end up meeting myfuture husband at Crested
Beauty, so that's a huge win.
But anyways, because I was justbeating myself up all the time.
And like, literally every time Iget back from a bike ride, I've
had this raging headache.

(41:48):
And I'm like, I can't keep goinglike this because at some point
you realize like, okay, I've gotto go on a bike ride.
I'm going to get a headache.
I'm going to pop a couple ofibuprofen, rinse, repeat, rinse,
repeat.
And I'm like, which istemporarily correcting the
issue, but it's not getting tothe cause of why that's
happening.
And so, you know, my hip washurting, all kinds of stuff.

(42:10):
And I was.
Barely 30 years old, 31 yearsold, maybe, and I was like,
well, I should probably dosomething about this and a
friend of mine in town was like,go see Dr.
Mimi.
She's a great chiropractor intown.
And so I did.
And of course, my body startedto feel better.
And she was a, you know, very,you know, Traditional adjuster,
like adjusted the full spine.
And because we were in a veryactive town, she would adjust

(42:32):
your wrists and your legs andall the things that feel great
when you walked out of there.
And you, I felt really wellloved when I walked out of there
too.
And it was very different thanany other like doctor
experience, right?
It was personal and it wasfriendly, right?
More like a massage.
Yeah.
And there was a differentconnection there.
And I also think there wassomething really appealing to me
at that time, even before I knewany of this, that, I was working

(42:56):
with my body.
I wasn't taking anything fromthe outside and putting it in
there.
I was just working with the goodthings that I already had.
Right.
And so of course my body startedfeeling better.
But at that time, like I wasdealing with some weird like
thyroid imbalance and I redid myblood work and everything
normalized.
And I was like, That'sinteresting.
And so the next time I went into see Dr.

(43:17):
Meavy, I said, Hey, this ishappening.
She's like, Jade, haven't Itaught you anything?
And it's, you know, a lot of thestuff that you and I were
talking about before that reallyevery organ and tissue in your
body is connected to the oneunder your hat.
Right.
And if those lines ofcommunication aren't open,
there's an obstruction there.
Yeah.
Things are not going to work theway they should.
So you're not just feeling likelooser.
You're feeling just like.

(43:38):
Better.
More connected.
Yeah, right.
It's, things are firing allcylinders.
And so it just got me thinkingand I was, I was a 9 1 1
dispatcher for the last fouryears.
I lived over in Gunnison County.
Okay.
That was the craziest job I everthought I'd have.
Right.
Take some interesting phonecalls in that role, I imagine.
Totally.
But at that time she startedplanning this.
She's like, you know, you'd be agreat chiropractor and I'm like,

(43:59):
Okay, thanks.
But then Those seeds took rootsomehow.
And so the school that I endedup going to in Atlanta, um, they
offer what's called a lifeleadership weekend.
So prospective students can,they'll just come check it out.
Almost host these weekends wherethey, you know, exactly like you
can connect with doctors in theareas, current students tour the
campus and just start tounderstand like, Hey, this, this

(44:20):
is what it would be like.
And so I said, well, I'm goingto go in Westside.
I don't even think we had beendating that long, maybe about a
year and maybe a year and ahalf.
I don't remember exactly, but.
I was like, I'm going to go outthere and do this weekend and
I'll know it's either a yes or ano, but I'm done.
Yeah, and I got there and I'llprobably tell you probably
within the first couple hours.
I was like, I was like, I'mgoing to have to, yeah, from

(44:45):
literal paradise in Crested Viewwith a guy that I just kind of
started dating and I was superinto, and we, you know, we were
living together and I was like,how, how is this even going to
happen?
So that's how it started.
But.
She was not an upper cervicalspecialist, but I do remember
distinctly having a conversationwith her before I left for

(45:07):
school.
And she's like, you're going togo to school.
And I had to do six months ofundergrad prerequisites because
I didn't have a science basedundergrad degree.
And so she's like, we'll takethe first six months and your
course load is going to belighter.
And there's a bunch of differenttechnique clubs on campus where
you can, you know, just seelike, This is only one way to do
it.
There's a lot of ways to dothis.
And she's like, there'schiropractors who adjust by

(45:29):
hand, there's chiropractors thatuse an instrument, there's
chiropractors that use acertain, uh, types of equipment.
And she's like, there's evenchiropractors that really just
focus on the top bone in theneck.
I don't, I remember in thatmoment looking at her, I'm like,
Well, that's crazy.
Why would they just do that?
And here we are.
Yeah.
Because, to me, it just madesense.

(45:50):
By doing this one thing, it caninfluence every other thing.
And it's true.
And, in fact, some of theoriginal techniques that were
upper cervical focused, it wascalled HIO, and it stood for
hole in one.
And, you know, that has the sortof the double meaning, like, you
know, it's like you're justgetting the whole thing because
it is a chain that works fromthe top down.

(46:13):
And then the other meeting, it'slike, it's the whole W H O L E
in one.
I can't believe I haven't like.
Actually talk to you about mystraight neck situation
properly.
It's silly.
That's okay.
And silly, you know, sometimes Iget people that come in and they
have lower back pain or sciaticnerve pain and I'm like, I'm
gonna look at that.
But we're gonna search upstreamto make sure that some of the
roots aren't upper right in theupper neck.

(46:34):
And I can't even tell you if Ihad a nickel for every time I
adjusted somebody's neck andthey're like, oh, my low back
feels better.
It's like, of course it does.
Well, and that's what I'm, I'mwondering to myself, there
probably wasn't,'cause I've metwith maybe three chiropractors
over the years, um, but none ofthem.
Had any kind of specialty inthat space or whatever, you
know, it wasn't really a thing.
It's been a thing for a longtime.

(46:55):
And I think probably a lot ofdocs don't want to do it
because, you know, we get someupper cervical coursework in
school, but I don't think it'sreally enough to feel confident
going into practice, justsaying, Hey, this is what I
focus on.
So it took a lot of extra timeoutside of school and
conferences, seminars, differenttechnique organizations, not
making money really.

(47:16):
Right.
Well, even when you're astudent, right.
And so, and then you have tohave a certain kind of mind to
want to do what I do.
There's a lot of math, there's alot of physics, and there's a
lot of calculation that goes in.
What patients see is the easypart.
The adjustment.
when it comes time, when thatperson's on my table and
everything's lined up, thatadjustment is easy as pie.

(47:37):
In fact, sometimes I tellpeople, especially people who
are a little bit nervous orskeptical, I'm like, this is
probably going to be the mostunderwhelming thing you've
experienced all day because theadjustment itself is very gentle
because I'm not trying to movethings miles.
I'm trying to move thingsliterally millimeters, but in
the exact right direction.
And all of the work that goesin.

(47:58):
To that moment, leading up tothe delivery of that adjustment,
that's the hard work.
And you still actually use kindof like math and Oh yeah.
It's more based on imaging andWell, it's all image based, but
then there's a lot of, well, I'mnot like literally doing math on
paper, but what I learned, likeyou had, you know, you held
little clear things up to x rayson a light box and Sure, and
you're like, this is You know,it's all digital.

(48:18):
This is what a millimeter lookslike on a piece of film.
Yeah, whatever.
Yep.
Interesting.
Um, let's, uh, that kind of isthe origin, so let's zoom back
to, are you good at potty breakor anything like that?
I'm good, thanks for asking.
Your water's still rockin Yeah,I forgot about it.
Uh, let's rock intokindergarten.

(49:23):
You were an East Coast girl, youmentioned, before you,
AmeriCorps took you tokindergarten.
Yeah, I was born and raised inNew York City.
Okay, really?
Yeah, which part?
Manhattan.
Okay.
Lower East Side, 27th and 2nd.
Okay, and what, what was the,the family situation?
Siblings, parents, what werethey doing?
So, my folks, they both workedfor their whole career.

(49:46):
I have a younger brother.
I look like a parent.
Yes, you do.
And I, that's a big compliment.
Would he wear this sweater?
He would wear that sweater.
He'd definitely rock thatsweater, Kurt.
Um.
My parents both worked for theNew York City Board of Education
in special ed.
My mom taught some of the most,um, you know, in some of the
most profoundly impactedautistic classrooms.

(50:08):
Um, so that was really awesometo see growing up.
And my dad ended up stillworking for the city, but in
more of an evaluator role.
So he made sure kids were placedin the proper classrooms that,
They would be able to receivethe services that they needed,
but all of the special educationlandscape, that's a really
interesting, uh, on the autismside, like I think of autism

(50:30):
kind of as something that'sreally, well, it has blossomed
so much more the last 20, 25years, for sure.
Right.
But a place like New York city.
Yeah.
Would kind of be a canary in thecoal mine.
They're like, Hey, we've gotenough of these kids that have
this characteristic becausethere's just so many people,
like in North Dakota, there'slike four kids with autism in
first grade.
Right.
I mean, like you probably grewup in a town as big as my

(50:51):
apartment building.
Like if that a hundred, ahundred people are, I don't
think my town's population everwas over a hundred.
Oh yeah.
It's smaller than my apartmentbuilding.
And so, yeah, my brother, mybrother is a two and a half
years younger than me.
Um, he's.
Did your parents come from theretoo?
Okay.
Interesting.
Yeah, yeah.

(51:12):
Interesting.
New Yorkers get a bad rap, man.
I think we're pretty friendly.
Well, they don't come here verymuch, honestly.
Like, I've only met, I've metprobably Ten upstate New York
people for every one cityperson.

(51:32):
Yeah, I that actually moves toColorado I could tell right away
when I have a patient in myconference room like when I meet
somebody for the first time I'mlike you're from where I from
like nine times out of ten.
I'm right Yeah, no Have younoticed the same like when you
meet other New York people?
Most of them are upstatecompared to the city.
I would say so.
Yeah.

(51:53):
I mean, New Yorkers think that'sthe center of the universe.
Most of them don't leave.
Like, right.
It's kind of like North Dakota,except for they think it's that
they're miserable people thatdeserve the punishment they're
receiving from God in the formof weather and wind.
Oh, Very different.
They don't really think aboutit.
Yeah.
Kind of.
That's kind of the culture.
Okay.
My ancestors must have beenstupid.

(52:13):
If they moved here, how the helldo I get out of here?
I'd have babies here.
But they're tough.
Yes.
Yes.
And relatively innovative andsmart.
But yeah.
Yeah.
And they make fun of city peopleanyway.
I know.
Well, it's interesting.
I married a guy from Mobile,Alabama, and I was so worried to
have our parents meet for thefirst time.
Okay.
Thank you.
Yeah.
Okay.
I was like, Oh my gosh, myparents are like the
quintessential, like Jews fromBrooklyn, right?

(52:38):
They're loud and they're, but myparents are like, they're just
the friendliest people.
Well, but they're like, not to,no offense intended, but I don't
think about.
Special education leaders when Ithink Jews in Brooklyn, I think
either Delhi or Banker or Well,my maiden name is Goldsmith.
And so my, you know, my family,a lot of them were jewelers,

(53:00):
like out of the line.
So, yeah.
So your, your family wereescapees from that line of, uh,
Yes.
So, but they were, were, wereyour, were they middle class in
that circumstance?
Very much so.
Like we grew up in rentcontrolled housing and, Yeah.
Um, you know, I think Of course,they were stable jobs, though.
Yes, very much.
You know, exactly.

(53:21):
So you didn't have much fear ofno future.
We never wanted for anythinglike that.
Yeah, we had a really, I wouldsay idyllic childhood and a lot
of regards.
Yeah, as far as having to livein New York City means.
No, I'm playing, but you don'tknow that there's a different
world out there.
Like, that's where you grow up.
And that's kind of free range.
Like you could, when you wereeight years old, You could kind

(53:42):
of be out in the city or it was,it was kind of sketch.
Oh, for sure.
New York in like the eighties,there was a lot of homelessness,
a lot of drug use.
Like the neighborhood I grew upwith was, it was pretty marginal
at that time.
And so I can't remember how.
I must have maybe been in 5th or6th grade when my parents would,
there was a little coffee shopin the ground level of the

(54:04):
apartment complex that I grew upin and I just remember my best
friend, Athena, like, you know,they would probably hand us a 10
bill and like, go home forlunch.
Right.
You know, we'd ride the elevatordown, we'd walk outside the
lobby into the building nextdoor to the coffee shop and
like, you know, of course thedays before like cell phones or
anything like that.
Sure.
Sure.
But I'm just curious of theculture what it really looks
like to grow up, you know, be ayoung person.

(54:25):
Yeah I thought it was reallycool I mean the places that we
went on class trips or placesthat like people plan their
vacations around And I was justlike our backyard, right?
But then the other side of thatit's like I didn't learn how to
drive until I was 22 years oldIt was oh, wow, terrifying.
Okay Um, you know, people playedsports where they had fields,
like stuff like that.

(54:46):
It's just really different.
Yeah.
So talk to me about like, whatwere like the, cause I always
think about sports, you know,being the, whether it's track or
soccer teams or different thingslike that, but what do, what do
city kids?
So I played a lot of basketball.
Get into it.
Okay, sure.
And that's, that was my lovewhen I was in high school and
even getting into college.
All right.
And I, we played softball too,but it was interesting.

(55:07):
We like, we had to.
Shlep, all of our equipment onthe subway, like, you know,
somebody would carry a bag ofbats and the balls and all the,
you know, catcher's gear and allthat stuff.
And we would ride the subway tolike Central Park or a place
that had a park, a public parkthat had fields.
And that's where we would playour games.
I got a bag full of balls.

(55:28):
Well, I mean, that's all again.
It's like, that's what we did.
And it was pretty cool.
You ride the subway home andyou're like, no, he's going to
fuck with me.
I got a bag of baseball batsright now.
It was good.
Yeah.
Well, plus you're part of ateam, probably all right.
Well, on the way, on the waythere, but then we all live
different places.
So we would all go our separateways on the way home.
Yeah.
We would divvy up the gear andyou'd bring it back to school
the next day.
And how was your, um, academicpursuits?

(55:49):
Were you a smarty pants early?
I was, I, you know, I just, I'mwired to thrive in that kind of
environment.
I loved school.
I was always like a great testtaker.
And yeah, it's not that I alwaysloved learning.
Cause I think as I've gottenolder, like when you figure out
what you actually love and whatyou're passionate about, I'll
learn this, learning that'seasier.

(56:10):
But I mean, I, I always was areally good student and you
know, just brain that takestests really well.
Well, and, and cultural pressuretoo, right?
Like the, between the Japaneseand the.
Jewish, uh, there's a couple ofcultures that just have a real
Yeah, I mean, maybestereotypically,
stereotypically, but in theactual numbers, too But in my

(56:31):
family, I guess, like, there wasnever that pressure It never
felt like outsider's pressure NoNo But just kind of cultural
expectation for sure.
But I also felt like it gave methe, you know, the balance of
like, Hey, I'm going to performwell in school and I'm not going
to screw this up.
So I'm also going to stay outtill like three in the morning.
Like cultural makeup of like theneighbors and the schools and

(56:53):
stuff.
Was it like, there's likeeverything like blacks and
Puerto Ricans and whites.
Everything.
And I think I like, I'm stillactually really good friends
with a lot of people that I wentto elementary school with and we
have all commented like ifeverybody's.
kindergarten class photo lookedas diverse as ours.
I think the world would be abetter place because you don't
learn intolerance for, Anybody,when you grow up in a place like

(57:17):
that, you just, you're just kidsand you like who you like.
It doesn't matter what fleshsuit they're wearing.
Well, I think New York city hasprobably been known for that for
a long time in general.
I would imagine so.
Right.
It's been kind of a melting.
Pot.
I call a Fort Collins, a, uh, awhite cheese fondue.
Cause there's people from allover the country.

(57:37):
They're just all white peoplefrom all over the country.
I know, you know, that's been areally difficult thing about
living in Colorado.
Like I do miss the diversity of,and there's honestly, like I've
had the privilege of traveling alot of places.
There's no place like New Yorkcity.
Oh, I'm sure.
Yeah.
Uh, I spent about.
30 hours in New York City on onetrip, and that's all so far.
So that's probably why I asked.

(57:57):
You got to go and you got tohire my dad, Phil, to be your
tour guide.
So did you, as you're gettingready to be.
Uh, going off.
Did you go to college directlyfirst?
I did.
So I graduated from high school.
I went straight to undergradbecause that's, I guess, what
you did.
And where?
What?
I went to school in Binghamton,New York.
So about four hours away fromthe city, like sort of Western
New York, Finger Lakes ish.

(58:19):
It's about an hour away fromSyracuse, Ithaca.
Which, the Finger Lakes arereally cool looking on a
geographic map.
Super pretty.
Yes.
It's, I think that's prettycool.
One of the most beautiful partsof the country.
I wouldn't, yeah, I wouldn'tdoubt it.
And the Adirondacks, superpretty.
So I, I, you know, you're what,18 and you go to undergrad and
you're like, Oh, I like that.
art.
I like making pictures.

(58:39):
So that's what I'm going to do.
Yeah.
But undergrad was awesome.
Like I, again, just like, do youlike be a graphic designer?
Yes.
So that was like my focus withmy art degree was photography
and graphic design.
So some of the graphic designskills that I learned and gosh,
when I learned, I mean, I waslooking at your hat, is your hat
yours?
That was a joint effort.

(58:59):
Okay.
You gave some feedback tosomebody that's more skilled,
fresher.
Well, you know, when I learnedwe were literally Making things
with like t squares and exactoknives.
I'm not kidding.
That makes me sound really oldWe were also developing actual
film with chemicals and printingthem on paper Right, and that's
just how the world was when Iwas an undergrad.

(59:21):
Oh You're not nearly as old asme, but I'm very close.
Are you really?
I'm 50.
I turned 50 this summer.
I am 46 Okay.
Yeah.
So yeah, so you experienced aworld without Cell phones, at
least a little bit, you know, asyou were a teenager.
Rotary phones, all the things.
Totally.
Yeah.
Interesting.
So.
Yeah.
I think the world was.
I put you younger in my mind'seye.

(59:41):
I've got you like 42 orsomething like that.
So.
I'll take it.
Yeah.
So yeah, you're right though.
None of those skills reallyapplied 10 years later.
And so, yeah, technology, Imean, it's almost like that
software is planned to becomeobsolete in a short period of
time.
Right.
And so, you know, when it comesto designing stuff like Canva
and all that stuff nowadays,like that makes it really easy.
And I love doing all that stuff.
And I do a lot of work for,yeah, our graphics for my

(01:00:05):
newsletter and all that stuff.
I enjoy doing that stuff and I'mvery particular about how things
look and, um, but some stuff Ijust don't have the time.
Well, sure.
And well, it didn't sound likeit was really a passion.
Yeah, you know, I never reallydid it professionally.
And so it's something that Idon't, I don't think I probably
would've been good at it, butthat's just not where life took

(01:00:26):
me.
So you, so you signed right upfor AmeriCorps after?
So after I graduated fromundergrad, I.
Had no idea what I wanted to dowith my life.
And I had toyed around withjoining the peace corps, but
there were a lot of requirementsas far as like, I was curious
about that myself, but it was, Iwas from North Dakota and nobody
did stuff like that.

(01:00:47):
Yeah.
It was a two year commitment.
And I was like, okay, I can'tremember exactly all the
reasons.
I think, you know, I don't knowexactly why I chose not to
pursue that, but then somebodymentioned, oh, well, they have a
version of the Peace Corpsthat's just the United States
and it's AmeriCorps.
And I was like, oh, that soundsreally cool.
And so I applied.
Actually, I hope this doesn'tget too weird, but like, because

(01:01:09):
I've been reading all thesebooks that have this quantum
physics lead to them.
Um, I think that's the firsttime I actually like, manifested
something in a way like, that Inow understand that.
It has everything to do with howyour thoughts actually have a
huge part in creating yourreality.
But I applied for thisAmeriCorps position with Habitat

(01:01:31):
for Humanity and you had tochoose your top three
geographical locations.
And so my first choice was like,I grew up on the East coast.
I was like, I want to experiencethe West coast.
I want to go to Portland,Oregon.
And so I, That was my number onechoice.
And I think my second one waslike Austin, Texas, Minneapolis,
it was, you know, big urbanareas.
And I got assigned to Portland.
I was like, sweet, got my firstchoice.

(01:01:52):
And then we all like all of theAmeriCorps placements from All
across the country, we met inactually America's Georgia,
where the headquarters is, andwe had our big orientation.
Kind of a bootcamp y thing.
And I can't even tell you, Italked to everybody like,
Portland was my first choice,Portland was my first choice,
and I had no idea it was thatcompetitive.
And I was like, I manifestedthat shit.
It was pretty cool.
Okay.
And so I, yeah.

(01:02:12):
Do they, do they choose youbased on like, what they think
of your qualifications?
Why do the other people get acedout?
I don't know.
Like, you know, I had aninterview, like a phone
interview, and then, you know.
Just a ranking system orsomething.
Maybe so.
Or pulled your name out of ahat.
It was a team and so I thinkthey probably interviewed to
make sure that they were tryingto put together a team that they
thought would get along and havegood synergy and all that stuff.

(01:02:34):
Different personality types andall that stuff.
So I don't know.
But it was really cool.
They do the same thing with theexchange students.
Uh, like Lenny from, fromFinland that's with us now.
He's like, you know, Coloradowas my second choice, you know,
but, um.
So however I got it, it wasreally cool.
So I got there and.
And Portland's cool, especiallyin those days.
Those days it was really cool.
Um, you know, we lived inNortheast Portland and it just

(01:02:56):
had a lot of flavor and again, alot of cultural diversity, which
made me feel like right at homecoming from New York.
Some tall buildings even, notthat many, but a couple.
And so I remember getting homefrom that orientation.
in Georgia and we went to theoffice and they threw me the
keys to the truck and they werelike, back the truck up to the
garage and hook up the trailer.
We'll tell you whichconstruction site we're going to

(01:03:17):
go to.
And I just looked at them.
I was like, I can't.
I can't do that.
They're like, Oh, you've nevertowed a trailer before.
We'll show you how to hook it upand it'll be fine.
I'm like, no, I don't have adriver's license.
They were like, what?
And so that was like my firstlike AmeriCorps job was to learn

(01:03:38):
how to drive.
And they turned me loose inthis, I think it was like a
1980s GMC flatbed truck.
And they took me out to thePortland Speedway with this huge
open parking lot.
Big clunker of a stick shift.
They're like, figure it out.
And they're like, if you coulddrive this, you could drive
anything.
And it was true.
And I, I got pretty comfortabledriving around in that big

(01:03:59):
clunker of a truck.
And my fellow AmeriCorps member,Jim Taddeo, he drove this old
minivan and he's like, you coulduse, he's like, you don't want
to, drive a stick shift for yourroad test.
It's like, it's just one lessthing to think about.
You could drive my minivan.
I was like, thanks man.
It was great.
But he's like, just don't evencome close to touching the
handle of the passenger seatbecause the seat will just flop

(01:04:24):
back flat and that's where theinstructor sits.
And I was like, Oh my God, I wasso nervous the whole time that
the instructor was just going toend up like flopping back, but
it worked out.
I was just telling Lenny a storylast night.
Uh, that's very.
Um, I was bragging to the peoplethat we were taking driver's ed

(01:04:44):
with, so we got, we got adriver's license at 14 in North
Dakota.
That's amazing.
Um, and.
And terrifying.
Also.
And I, and I was, it was justlike barely before I was going
to turn 14, but I was still ableto take the class.
Yeah.
And we were talking about whowas the best driver.
Um, in the class and I was like,well, clearly it's me and my, my

(01:05:06):
school friends were like, well,you're always like sliding
around corners and stuff likethat.
I was like, well, yeah, that'swhy I'm the best driver.
And I had already loggedprobably five to 10, 000 miles
of driving before I went todriver's ed and got my driver's
license at 14.
Uh, so just such a different anddriving trucks full of grain,

(01:05:26):
combines and tractors andwhatever else.
Backing up trailers.
Anyway, yeah, totally differentperspective there we could
actually take a break anyway.
You wanna?
You wanna octu?
Yeah.
Okay, I think we should.
Let's do that.
All right.

(01:06:29):
Um, and so, we're back.
And when we broke, you were, uh,giving a driving test, uh, with
a minivan.
And it was successful.
It was, yeah.
You got your driver's license atthe fine old age of 22, yeah.
Um, and, uh, during the break wewere talking that like, in your,

(01:06:50):
like, community, in the placethat you live, like, 90 percent
adults Didn't really drive.
Oh no, like my parents didn'town a car growing up.
Really?
I would venture to say that mostof my classmates or their
families probably didn't owncars either.
I can't imagine how expensive itmust have been.
Did you drive subways then alot?
Yeah, we walked a lot of places.
Um, you know, when it was toofar to walk, we would either
take the subway, City bus.

(01:07:12):
Yeah, we take a cab.
So like what do you want onexploring as a family and what
some of these places are?
Oh classes, would you takesubways?
Sometimes I mean there wereschool buses that would take us
on class trips Like I neverwrote a school bus to school,
right?
Right, we would walk we walkedto elementary and junior high
and when I got to high school Iwould either ride the bus or the
subway or I thought was realcool.
I would rollerblade to schoolYeah, I think that's so

(01:07:35):
illustrative of The differencelike yeah, um, one of the things
I've said a lot is like theUnited States needs to hold the
United States a little moreloosely.
You know, there's like these,this kind of movement of, you
know, banning the electoralcollege, for example.
Well, then New York andCalifornia would basically tell,
you know, everybody in NorthDakota, how to live.

(01:07:55):
They have no idea like what itis to have their kids driving
their farm tractor at 13 yearsold.
Cause that's what you need todo.
Right.
It's just a different world andyou know, different needs.
And you know, my world, there'sa saying like structure
determines function, right?
Like the structure of your spineis going to determine the
function of your body.
Like it's the same thing.
Like your environment determineswhat you need to have the skills

(01:08:18):
to be able to Impulse for aperhaps more collectively.
Supportive society when you havehomeless people in the streets
and things like that like it'slike no We should take care of
this because that's yeah, ourkids safety right totally North
Dakota.
Like they're like Here, rideyour bike to your friend's
house.
Right, and don't get your armstuck in this piece of farm
equipment.
Right, don't fall off the binwhen you go up and check and see

(01:08:40):
if the grain is dry.
And like we were learning how tojaywalk in traffic, right?
When you're jumping from haybale pile to hay bale pile, you
know, make sure if you do fallyou try not to land on your
head.
Yeah.
I mean, maybe similar skill setsjust applied in an urban versus
a rural setting.
One is more Frogger, the otherone is more Tarzan.
So you get your driver's licenseand now you can finally go off

(01:09:04):
and be part of this team inPortland?
Or were you already in Portland?
Oh no, I, other people would,Drive me to the construction
site.
But it was cool.
It was cool to be able to dothat I mean just even the little
things like I remember the firsttime I drove myself to the
grocery store I was like I couldbuy my groceries by myself.
This is crazy.
Did they teach you like how toswing a hammer?
How to, you just saw all thosethings too, right?
Oh for sure.

(01:09:25):
So that was really what we werethere to do We were there to
basically become assistant sitesupervisors.
And so we learned all thoseskills We were sent roof
trusses.
We were hanging drywall.
We were, you know, Frame it inWindows.
Like, we learned it all.
It was a really cool thing todo.
And then it also planted theseeds for me to become involved
with Habitat here.
Yeah, yeah.
Cool.
Um, and so, so you stayed withAmeriCorps for a while, right?

(01:09:47):
A year.
It's a year of service.
Okay.
Yep.
And then, what was thecircumstance that landed you?
So I, gosh, when I graduatedfrom undergrad, I was, I was
dating a guy.
We tried to do the distancething.
We probably shouldn't have stuckwith it, but we did.
So I moved back.
He, we were living in upstateNew York, Saratoga Springs at

(01:10:08):
this time.
And so I went back.
We tried to, you know.
pick up where we left off orwhatever.
And, you know, it was definitelya bad idea for the beginning,
but actually for a couple ofyears, we just toughed it out
and, um, it was pretty, I mean,that was an interesting phase of
my life.
Like I landed there, it waswinter time.
We're getting into the wintertime, so I got a job at a little
coffee shop, and That's UncommonGrounds.

(01:10:30):
I've worked at Uncommon Grounds.
Have we talked about thatbefore?
I don't know.
I have a, uh, one of my, when Istarted dating my wife, I lived
with two gals I worked with atthe bank, and one of them had
worked at Uncommon Grounds.
Wow.
I've been there.
Small world.
When we were in upstate New Yorkat one time.
I've put cream cheese on so manybagels in that place.
Yeah, she was always a big fanof that, uh, coffee shop.
Yeah, it was a good coffee shop.
Yeah, yeah.
And so that's, I mean, I learnedto love good coffee when I

(01:10:51):
worked there and then I wouldalso work the one coffee shop in
New York that I've been to inSaratoga Springs.
Yeah.
That was a really weird, all ofNew York state.
I've never been to anothercoffee shop.
And it's the one that I workedin.
Um, that was a weird town.
There was a huge disparitybetween like the haves and the
have nots of that town.
Like a veil kind of situationwhere there's all these rich
people.

(01:11:11):
Yeah.
Like Skidmore college and lotsof very wealthy college students
and horses.
Racing and then the people thatmake them coffee.
Yeah, and the people that likegrew their vegetables, which was
mean So I worked on a smallorganic farm.
Okay in those years two in thesummer even more skills You're
pretty well rounded for a citygirl.
Totally super drive a bus.
You couldn't hammer nails Icould grow Yeah, and so it

(01:11:36):
actually was through the farmand You know, setting up at our
farmer's market that I metsomebody who would spend his
summer's farming in upstate NewYork, and he would spend his
winters working for the Ascariaand Crested Butte.
And so when my relationshipfinally came to an end, you
know, Was this a love interest?
No, no, no.
Just a friend.
Yep.
Happened to be that lifestyle.
And you're like, well, he said,Hey, I can get you a job at the

(01:11:56):
Ascaria and Crested Butte.
No problem.
He said, just come out toColorado for the winter.
I was like, awesome, Doug.
That sounds great.
And so I was pretty slow in thewinter.
Anyway, I'm sick of coffee.
I needed to get out of thattown.
I was at that point, I had movedout and I was literally in my
friend's walk in closet.
It had a window though, so thatwas good, but I had like a blow
up, like twin mattress in a walkin closet.

(01:12:17):
I was like, I need a venuechange.
And so when Doug mentioned that,I was like, Oh, yeah.
Awesome.
I would love to spend the winterin Colorado.
And you know, I had a jobwaiting for me when I got there
and I would use to drive this.
It was awesome.
I had a 1995 Volkswagen Golf.
That car was awesome.
Like little stick ship, zippylittle car.
Yeah, I'd love that car.

(01:12:37):
And so the plan was we weregoing to just pack my car up and
we were going to road trip itout together and.
We'd land in Crested Butte andabout a week before we were
supposed to leave he calls me.
He's like Jane Um, I'm not goingto Colorado this this winter.
I was like what I Was like we'resupposed to leave in a week What
the hell and he's like I he Iguess say I'm probably still the
case but getting a he reallywanted a job on Ski Patrol.

(01:13:00):
Okay, and those positions areprobably super competitive in
Crested Butte and He was offereda position at a resort in
Vermont.
So he's like I'm staying on theEast Coast this winter.
Oh dang He's like, well, don'tin the door for ski patrol.
Well, he's like, don't worry.
You still have a job waiting foryou.
Like you're going to love it.
Godspeed.
And I was like, okay.
So I packed all my shit into myVolkswagen Golf and I drove

(01:13:20):
cross country by myself.
I stopped in Albuquerque to seesome friends who actually also
worked at Uncommon Grounds, whohad moved.
And I dish dove in therestaurant that they work out to
just make a little bit extramoney to make it all the way to
Crested Butte.
I landed there.
And.
I think I got there and then thevery next day I started work,
they put me on the lift up tolike, you know, this is like sea

(01:13:41):
level and Were you ski?
I snowboarded a little bit, youknow, took in Vermont or upstate
snowboarding New York for PE inupstate New York.
Okay.
I wasn't terribly good at it,but I was like, you know, 23
years old.
But you'd ridden at a liftbefore at least.
Oh yeah.
A little bit.
Stuff that stuff stuff.
And, but not at elevation.
Oh my gosh.
They put me on a lift firstthing with a shovel.
They're like, we're building theramp to get off the lift.

(01:14:02):
And I thought I was going to dielike 11, 000 feet.
I was like, what am I doinghere?
But I stayed at a hostel thefirst couple of nights I was in
town.
And then I met just a bunch ofreally cool people.
We got a condo together up onthe mountain and, you know, we
lived pretty classic ski bumlife for several years.
It was awesome.
And, you know, I ended upworking at Camp 4 Coffee in
Crested Butte for many yearstoo.

(01:14:23):
It was a really good experience.
Simple life, when I look back onit.
And how did the 9 1 1 dispatch,you were like, Well, I guess I
should get a big girl job orsomething?
Well, I mean, that was part ofit.
Like, year round jobs in theGunnison Valley.
And again, I'm speaking like theGunnison Valley of 15, 20 years
ago.
It was very different.
Um, They were hard to come by,like your own jobs with

(01:14:44):
benefits.
Like there was used to be a hugeoff season, like month season.
We'd have month season in thespring, and then we'd have month
season again when the, you know,the fall and you were, a lot of
people were out of work for afew months out of the year.
Yeah, I think that's reallyinteresting, even for the, the,
the.
The local restaurants andstores.
They would close and that's whenthose restaurant owners would
take a breather, take theirvacation and tourism was down.

(01:15:05):
So there wasn't a whole lot ofpeople under the locals to feed.
And so town would shut down.
And I mean, those were magicaltimes.
It would probably like, if youlooked at like monthly receipts
and wages paid and stuff, it'sprobably got some really crazy
seasonality.
Most definitely.
Now I don't think anything shutsdown.
There's no off season anymore.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But yeah, at that time, you hadto really plan for that because

(01:15:28):
you probably had no income orvery much reduced income.
Right, you got two shifts a weekinstead of six at the
restaurant, whatever.
Totally.
Exactly.
And so, I don't know.
I mean, it wasn't that Inecessarily needed a change, but
it was just a, it was just a,there was a curiosity to that
type of work.
And I know I've always thoughtno matter what we do, we're in
service to people, whether I'mserving somebody a coffee, or I

(01:15:50):
am answering a phone whensomebody's having an emergency
or exactly like whatever we do,we are serving somebody.
Right.
And I was like, well, this is adifferent, really unique way to
serve the community.
And honestly, growing up in NewYork city, I did not at that
time have very positive views oflaw enforcement.
And so I, you know, I, you know,Challenged my own way of
thinking and actually made somereally great friendships with

(01:16:11):
people and learned a lot Youknow, you learn about a lot.
You learn a lot about humanity.
You learn a lot about yourself.
You have to handle otherpeople's shit So it was a weird
job.
Do you like if you could open achiropractic office in Crested
Butte?
Today and still have the sameLifestyle, discretionary income,

(01:16:32):
would you want to, or do you,are you back in love with
Northern Colorado now thatyou're here?
Oh man, that's a hard question.
I mean, I, I miss the mountains.
I miss living in a mountaintown, but I don't think I could
thrive and do what I do, likethe specific type of
chiropractor that I do in a townthat's small, in a community
that's small.
And it's also like, it's still avery much tourist driven economy

(01:16:53):
there.
And I'm sure the chiropractors.
Maybe there's more than one.
I'm not sure.
I've been back in a while ButI'm sure they get a lot of walk
in traffic from skiers who justneed a one off adjustment And
there's for sure a place forthat in town, but that's just
that that's not what lights meup that you do Yeah, fair
enough.
Okay But yeah, I would happilylive there again.
Would you let's talk about likeLike a possible next chapter

(01:17:18):
like do you want to do this fortwo years?
20 more years and then retirenow that you've got kind of your
business kind of rocking or doyou have curiosities?
Would you I can't I honestlythis is weird to say I can't see
myself doing anything differentat this point There's nothing
six already.
So actually 15 more years youcan retire but I love what I do
and I feel like I have the skillto be able to do it.

(01:17:42):
And I have the ability tocommunicate its importance to
people.
And it feels really good tooffer to offer a solution for
people that they're not findingany place else.
And so I think I don't ever seemyself retiring necessarily in a
traditional sense.
It's like, you know, maybe oneday I would hope to bring on an
intern who would become anassociate who could then, you
know, Basically purchase mypractice and take it over and

(01:18:05):
keep that legacy going.
Maybe they'll even let you worktwo days a week there.
Exactly.
And just come in and, and justdo the part that I love, which
is actual caring for peoplepart.
I don't have to worry aboutlike, writing the checks or, you
know, dusting the light fixturesor anything like that.
Yeah, yeah.
I dig it.
Yeah.
Um, what would you say to ayoung, uh, medical professional?

(01:18:27):
person are the most, whether itbe nutrition or chiropractic or
whatever, acupuncture, somehealthcare realm, like what are
the most important?
Cause a lot of them are servepeople first and they don't
really think about the businesselements.
What, I guess, what would beyour advice to somebody in that
mindset of, uh, you know, makinga sustainable machine out of

(01:18:51):
the, if you will.
I think there's probably a hugebenefit in, associating with
somebody first.
You know, I didn't do that rightout of school.
Like I think there was, I had aunique set of circumstances.
I was a bit older and I knewspecifically the type of
practice I wanted to have.
And we knew we were moving toFort Collins.
There was nobody else here doingwhat I needed to do.
So it was on me to basicallypurchase all the equipment and

(01:19:12):
do all that anyways.
So I'm like, well, if I'm doingthis, I'm, I'm just going for
it.
But I think there could havebeen a lot for me to learn being
in.
Practice with somebody elsebeing under somebody else's
roof.
If you were 23, work forsomebody for three or five
years.
I think there's immense value inthat, or at least having mentors

(01:19:34):
that you hold close that canguide you through startup,
because I'm going to say, like,I, you probably, in most schools
that train you to be a massagetherapist, nutritionist,
acupuncturist, chiropractor, youmight have a business class or
two, but you do not get abusiness education.
It's not what school's designedfor.
And that's a whole otherconversation.

(01:19:54):
But you don't graduate withthose skills.
And you don't even graduate withthe skills you need to, like,
understand how to go to anetworking function and connect
with people.
And if that doesn't comenaturally to you, it's, it's a
really awkward process.
awkward thing.
Right.
And so for somebody young,that's looking to do that, like
either gain experience and, youknow, make those mistakes when
you have somebody by your sidewho could help you through them,

(01:20:16):
or at least have those mentorsclose that can guide you through
it.
Like, I mean, I think that'swhat Loco Think Tank is for me
now and has been for five yearsis those peers that can, you
through it.
Provide input and It's been neatto see so many of you grow so
nicely over the last sevenyears.
it's my crew.
Yeah, yeah.
Uh, one of the things that youdidn't say, but I was thinking
at the time is for a youngperson to really go to a

(01:20:39):
practice that you admire.
Yeah.
You know, there's, there'salways going to be practices out
there and doctors out there.
You kind of got to dig a littlebit, figure out for sure who you
want to be a part of their team.
And it's been cool.
I've had through the many years,students reach out to me and ask
if they can come shadow likechiropractic students.
And it's always an honor whensomebody reaches out to ask
that.
And You know, I guess to someextent, like, that there's got

(01:21:01):
to be this almost, like, Wizardof Oz thing, too.
It's like, you know, there's nosecrets behind my curtain.
There's no magic or, you know,mystery to it.
It's just grinding it out everyday.
And, not grind it in a negativeway, but it's, you know, it's
not all glamorous work.
It's not all happy results.
You're meeting 40 people in aday.
That's a lot of interactions.

(01:21:22):
And it's also a lot of peoplewho maybe aren't Because they're
not feeling their best or in agrouchy mood because they're in
pain and you know, It's notalways like rainbows and
butterflies and a lot of timesit is and the days go by but
then there's heaviness to it andalso, you know, we've talked
about this a little bit aboutbeing in business is the

(01:21:43):
opportunity you hold a mirror upand it's a lot of reflection of
like who you are and At the endof the day, it's you know You
know, nine good things canhappen, but one bad thing
happens, and how do I come homeenough to just focus on that one
negative thing?
How do I celebrate the wins,too?
Well, I suspect that it, foryour crew at your local Think

(01:22:04):
Tank chapter, that's part of it.
Like, they help you look back atthe accomplishments instead of
just that one little piece.
Yeah, and we all need that.
Otherwise, like, I mean, I thinkthat's a recipe for burnout.
If we don't have that, you know,bird's eye view or that
perspective.
You mentioned the, the attemptto hire an associate doctor
there and it was an expensivelesson or whatever.
Yeah.

(01:22:25):
20 grand.
You know, I maybe not quite thatmuch intentionally didn't do the
math because I, I just didn'twanna know.
Right.
But I'll just say lawyers aren'tcheap.
Right.
Um, well, and, and I, and Isuspect that the, having people
that help you get to a mindsetof, you know, we're just gonna
move past it.
Yes.
Don't even really need to knowthe math.
I know.
And I mean, even now, about ayear and a half later, I don't

(01:22:51):
know that I'll be at a place ofgratitude for the experience.
Right.
I think that's gonna require alittle bit more self-reflection,
but I.
I am grateful for, I mean, eventhe people that I met along the
way and the opportunity to like,understand the system, so to
speak, and what happens when anemployee decides to file a
frivolous complaint.
Like, what does that look like?

(01:23:12):
And that is such a thinganymore.
Yeah.
Like I never heard about it whenI was in banking of employees
that were just kind of like, youknow If they got terminated and
they weren't happy about it,they just like try to make it
somebody else's problem Yeah,and that happened and on my good
days.
I just realized that onlysomebody who's in a pretty dark

(01:23:34):
place makes decisions like that.
And you know, in those moments Ican have compassion for the
situation, but on my less goodmoments, I'm like, who does
that?
Who does that?
But it's a suffering person whodoes that.
Yeah.
Well, hurt people, hurt people.
And it, you know, honestly, the,the system is set up so that

(01:23:55):
somebody who just is disgruntledor had a bad experience or just
has a bone to pick, they couldliterally just fill out a form
online and just click submit andit goes to the state.
And then the onus is on thebusiness owner to fight that.
And, you know, I interviewed acouple lawyers when this all
happened.
The first one was like, well,you know, you'll probably spend
less time, less energy, lessmoney, not fighting this, just

(01:24:16):
settle.
And I was like, Oh, it just feltdirty to me because what this
person was doing was calling mycharacter into question with the
statement that they provided.
And I was like, I know in myheart and in all the
documentation that I have thatnone of this is true.
Right.
And.

(01:24:37):
You know, I interviewed anotherlawyer who is the one I ended up
working with and he's like, andI'll tell you right out of the
gate, this is a very employeefriendly system, but you know,
looking at all the documentationyou have, like, there's no
question.
And so he said, if you want togo through this process, I can't
guarantee you an outcome, but itwill probably be favorable for
you.
Um, And it's going to probablytake months.

(01:24:57):
And it did from start to finishthe whole process going through
like interviews withinvestigators from the state
took about seven months.
And at the end of the day, they,on everything that I was, you
know, accused of doing basicallynone of it held any water.
And you know, it, you know, Itfelt really good.

(01:25:18):
Like actually was in our cohortsmeeting.
I was with, uh, we were justgetting to Avery and I was with
Moses.
We were waiting in line and I,my cell phone rings and it was
my lawyer.
I was like, Oh my gosh, this hasto be the decision because we've
been waiting, waiting, waiting.
And in that moment, I justwanted to run outside and like
incredible Hulk my shirt off.
Yes, I won! Because it was justmonths of I am vindicated.

(01:25:40):
That anguish, that mentalanguish, but then after that I'm
like, man, this doesn't muchfeel like winning.
Right.
Like, it just feels like awaste.
You had 40 hours at least spentscrewing around with this whole
deal.
And all the money and the timeaside, it was like the heartache
that I put myself through.
Yeah.
That sucked.
Well, may you never have thatkind of experience.
I've talked to a lot of friendsand colleagues are like, man,

(01:26:02):
you sure got the worstexperience out of the way first.
I was like, usually people get alittle bit richer first before
people target them for that kindof stuff.
It's okay.
You know, they have a little bitmore like when somebody has got.
20 or 30 employees or something,they're like, Oh, he can afford
it.
I can just get the, you know,whatever unemployment they don't
really deserve or this or that.
And I just think the wholesituation too, is a really

(01:26:22):
interesting reflection of folkswho went through, I would say
school, particularly school thatrequires a lot of hands on
interaction with people who wentthrough school during the
pandemic and they didn't have toshow up for class.
Right.
They just did class online.
Or they, you know, Did it whenthey felt like it and submitted
the work, but when you're in aprofession like mine, you can't
just decide to show up when youfeel like it.

(01:26:45):
You show up whether you're, youknow, feeling a hundred percent,
you show up whether there's afoot of snow on the ground, you
show up for people becausethat's what your job is.
And our patients deserve us at ahundred percent.
And in my mind, like when I walkthrough the door, like I wear
scrubs in the office.
Like it just makes it easy.

(01:27:05):
I don't have to think about whatI'm wearing in the morning.
If they're embroidered with myname and my logo, and it's
comfortable.
It's like wearing jammies towork every day.
It's really comfortable.
When I put that, when I putthose pants and that top on,
it's go time.
And it puts me in the mindset.
Like I am in a work mindset.
Even if you had a fight with Weson your way to work.
Yeah, whatever.
I'm, I'm Dr.
Jane now.
Correct.
In fact, like, you know, bestjokes are always like, Oh, you

(01:27:26):
got your doctor costume on, butit's true.
Like there's something about it.
And then when I take it off andI'm home, I try to leave that at
work.
And it's just interesting.
Like, I, I hope that there's ayounger generation of
chiropractors and otherhealthcare professionals coming
out of school that do have thatdrive and do have that passion
to show up for people, becausethat's not what I was showing.

(01:27:47):
People need it.
Um, I feel like we've covered alot of the, the journey.
Um, we always talk about faith,family, and politics as our
mandatory segments.
Yikes.
Um, yeah.
Where would you like to startthere?
We can go in order, I guess.
Um, so yeah, are you, my friendsays, are you Jewish or Jewish?

(01:28:13):
Uh, are you kosher?
Do you do synagogue stuff atall?
I mean Growing up, I think, youknow, we observed the big
holidays.
Like, my mom's parents were moreconservative.
Like, I think they kept a kosherhouse.
Like, they had different sets ofdishes.
And, um, me and my grandma madegood chicken soup.
Um.
You had matzo balls anddifferent things.

(01:28:33):
Yeah.
And like, we celebrated all theholidays together.
Yeah.
With our families.
And which, when is Hanukkahafter?
We just had actually this, justafter Christmas.
Well, it's different because theJewish calendar is different.
Okay.
But this year, the first day ofHanukkah actually fell on
Christmas Day.
Oh, is that right?
Okay.
And so this year Hanukkah camereally late.
Yeah.
So that's usually it's littlebit earlier.
It's the 12th or 15th or, yeah.
And so we celebrated Hanukkahgrowing up.

(01:28:55):
Okay.
And you know, we lit the menorahand said our prayers.
Like my, my brother and I did goto Hebrew school for many years.
I, you know, I joke around, I'mlike, I was a Hebrew school
dropout.
Do you, do you have any Hebrewskills?
Like can you say some words andstuff?
Not really.
I mean, I could sort of likepronounce text if I was looking
at it, but I don't know what thewords mean, but you know, all

(01:29:15):
the different songs and theprayers that we used to say in
like religious school, like, youknow, if I ever do go to a
temple for high holidays, like.
A lot of it, like, just soundsreally familiar because it's
what I remember from mychildhood.
But we did go on a reallyincredible trip to Israel as a
family when I was in highschool.
And so that was amazing.
I was listening just thismorning, actually, there's a

(01:29:36):
Canadian Christian apologist onJoe Rogan.
I think Rogan's slowly turninginto a Christian, but like over
the last five years, he's gottenmore and more less dismissive,
we'll say.
But anyway, this, this Canadianguy, apparently.
tore up this dude in some kindof a podcast debate and it went
viral and this dude was likeSending cease and desist because

(01:29:57):
he sounded like such a dumbasswhen debating this fellow
Anyway, he was talking about howlike at the time that the jewish
faith the monotheism kind ofEntered the world conversation,
if you will.
Like there was the Greeks andthe Romans and there was like,
yeah, your Zeus is kind of likemy Poseidon and Athena is this

(01:30:18):
and this, these gods live hereand there.
And then the Jews come, comealong and they're like, well,
no, actually there's one God andhe created the whole works.
And if you're gods or anything,they're demons.
And just kind of the, uh, Iguess in a lot of ways, the,
the.
the leadership of the Jews interms of that whole, the

(01:30:39):
monotheism element, I guess.
And so how do you, are you areligious Jew?
Do you believe in a creatorbeing?
I do.
And I don't know that it's, youknow, the Jewish version of
that, but I, you know, I dothink that there's something
greater out there and I don't.
Necessarily have a particularlabel for it.
Fair?

(01:30:59):
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, I mean, do you, do youthink of it as Yahweh or
whatever in your mind's eye asnot a, it's not that God that's
described in some of yourparents?
No.
Not necessarily sex or whatever.
Yeah.
Okay.
I'm just, yeah, it's good,curious.
Uh, like I am, I am the worst.
Like, I don't, it's like, youknow, you probably heard a lot
growing up.
Jewish in New York is like avery cultural thing.

(01:31:19):
Right?
I would imagine.
I mean, and a lot of it has todo with like eating good food
and just being with family and,yeah.
Yeah.
Um.
Yeah, so there's a big culturaland religious, there's two
different things kind of,there's cultural Jews and
religious Jews in some respects,and probably just like
Christianity and especiallyChristianity like in Europe, you

(01:31:39):
know, my grandparents were morereligious and now we're not as
much.
We're different, right?
We observe our faithdifferently.
Yeah, fair.
Um, anything else on the faithtopic that you would want to
share?
Really, I think it's, it's justgood to be.
You seem like you'd be like acoexist bumper sticker person,
at least in spirit, if not inpractice.
I would never put that, yeah,correct.

(01:32:00):
But I agree, and I honestlythink that, you know, across
most faiths and religions, wehave a lot more in common than
we have that's different, right?
And at the bottom of it all,like, it's the golden rule,
right?
Do unto others.
Yeah, I kind of describe it asthe same force described by
different kind of writers orwhatever, even the, even the
manifesting.
Element like some people callthat prayer You know, like it's

(01:32:23):
kind of the same.
Can my intentional communicationwith the universe or with God or
with whatever.
Can that sometimes make adifference in what happens?
Yeah.
And I think we all should, um,look to people with other
opinions and faiths anddifferences, uh, with curiosity
and respect and, um, freakinglove each other.

(01:32:47):
That's a co exist buffer stickerexcept for, you know, you don't
have to have it.
It offends the graphic designerin me.
That's fair.
Um, family.
Let's, uh, we talked a littlebit about family, but let's
talk, maybe before we talk aboutyour husband, let's talk about
your, your family.
Your mom, your dad, yourbrother, just a little bit more.
Maybe your grandparents, ifthere's really impactful things
or the smartest uncle ever.

(01:33:09):
Oh man.
I think, have you ever watchedSeinfeld?
Yeah, sure.
So like, that was definitely mydad's grandparents, that whole
dynamic.
Like which one?
Like Kramer or like Jerry?
My grandmother was definitelyEstelle Costanza.
Oh, yeah.
I got it.
I got it.

(01:33:29):
And the dad too.
So that was just madness.
They, my, my dad's parents had alittle apartment and actually,
uh, right on Coney Island, andso it was really cool to go
visit them and we go to like thedirty beach on Brighton beach
and like, you know, fill bucketswith sand crabs and ride the
roller coasters at Coney Island.
And so that was cool.
And my mom's.
Parents, um, they wereimmigrants from Poland.

(01:33:50):
Oh, wow.
Okay.
And they were a lot moretraditional and yeah, they, uh,
they passed when I was prettyyoung, so I don't have a ton of,
they were like immigrants fromPoland, like to escape ZI stuff
and whatnot.
Yeah.
Like that kind of thing.
I think they both immigrated toUnited States through the uk.
Oh, wow.
And I think they narrowlyescaped being persecuted in the
Holocaust because they lookedAryan, like they were blonde

(01:34:11):
hair, blue eyed people.
And Yeah, I was gonna ask aboutthat.
And that's part of, they were.
Polish Jews, but not necessarilyethnic or they weren't, they
were more Aryan looking as, asyou are, I suppose is fair.
Cause you're big too, for what Iconsider like the child of
little Jewish people in New Yorkor whatever.
I mean, you're not big, butyou're fairly tall.

(01:34:32):
You're 5'8 or something.
You're fairly physically strong.
Like you could beat me up if Ikeep talking about how big you
are.
I'm a lover man, not a fighter.
But I mean, you're not.
I understand what you're saying.
Anyway.
Correct So, um, where were weat?
We were just talking about, wewere talking about my
grandparents.
Yes.
Okay.
Um, but, um, yeah.
Okay, so that was the deeperfamily history is at least on

(01:34:55):
that side.
Yeah.
The others were in New York fora long time kind of thing.
And, yeah, my parents were bothborn and bred in Brooklyn and,
um, yeah, they were both inpublic school education.
They retired.
Um.
And they had, like, we were afamily of four.
We grew up in an apartment of, Iwould probably say, like, about
a thousand square feet, whichwas pretty big.
Did you have a separate bedroomfrom your brother?
I did, but honestly, growing up,like, we were besties, my

(01:35:17):
brother and I, and so he had abunk bed, so I always slept in
his bedroom when we were little.
But obviously, when I got olderand, you know, became a
teenager, I was like, I'msleeping with my little brother.
I was just too cool for that.
But just close.
Yeah, and we still are.
He married a wonderful woman whois from Muskegon, Michigan, and
that's where they live with myniece Carmen.

(01:35:37):
Muskegon.
It's about an hour from GrandRapids.
Okay, yeah, yeah.
On the lake.
What a nice part of Michigan.
It's pretty.
Yeah.
It is pretty.
I dig it.
Um, what would you say, uh,your, uh, favorite quality about
your brother is?
Ah, he's got a big heart.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He's got a big kind heart.
He might say the same thingabout you.

(01:35:57):
I don't know.
Can't spit words in his mouth.
Um, where'd you meet Wes?
Wes and I, Wes and I met inCrested Butte.
And how much, uh, how longbefore you first met, before you
kissed him?
Oh, Wes and I, we knew eachother for a while before we even
thought to maybe becomeinterested in each other.
It's a small town, you prettymuch Know everybody that the

(01:36:21):
odds are good, but the goods aregood for the concern.
That's right And I mean I wasnot looking for a relationship
When I started hanging out withwes at all, I was actually
living You know about sevenmiles outside of town on this
little.
Um, you know in a yurt like offthe grid I was like, I want to
be as isolated as possible.
Wow.
Had you had your heart broken orsomething or what was your

(01:36:41):
premise?
Wanted to be with myself.
Yeah.
Yeah, and You know I startedworking at Dispatch West at that
time, was working for theCrestbeat Marshall's office.
And so we communicated with eachother just because we had to
professionally.
And then I had, we had a mutualfriend who had shoulder,
shoulder surgery.

(01:37:01):
And I picked him up from thehospital and got him home.
And, um, I was like, hey man,let me stock your fridge so that
you're set up.
And so I went to the store and Iwas like, I'm going to come home
and cook you dinner before Ihead home.
And so I went to the store, gotback to his place, and He's
like, Wes is downstairswinterizing his motorcycle,
because Wes would keep hismotorcycle in Lars's garage for

(01:37:23):
the winter.
And he said, see if he wants tocome up for dinner.
I knew Wes, and so I was like,hey Wes, I'm upstairs cooking
Lars dinner.
Like, he just got Got in fromsurgery.
Yeah.
I said, why don't you come upfor dinner?
I was making breakfast fordinner.
I freaking hate those tubes ofbiscuits that explode.
Scary.
Yeah, the pop worse than achampagne.
I know and so Wes was justtalking about like, hey, you

(01:37:44):
know, I really hope to you know,ride to Baja and eat fish tacos
on the beach.
I was like who is this guy?
And like, in that moment, I waslike, I think I, yes, you got a
motorcycle too.
I know.
It was like, I just had no idea.
And so that's, you know, we hadmade plans to hang out.
It didn't really happen.
I was living down in Gunnison atthat time because that's where

(01:38:06):
dispatch was about like, youknow, 30 miles down valley from
Crested Butte, but I was goingto be spending New Year's Eve up
in Crested Butte that year.
And I said, Hey man, I'm goingto be up in Crested Butte for
the night.
And a bunch of us are planningon going out for dinner.
Why don't you join us?
And he did.
We had dinner, we went out, theBrick Oven is a, was, was a
pizza place there, it's nolonger open.

(01:38:27):
I've been there before.
I know, it's like, just allthese cool memories.
But we went over to the Brick,where we both worked, actually.
Like, I was a delivery driver,so was he.
He worked at the kitchen, Iworked at the counter.
And, um, I said, Hey, I'm goingto go grab us a drink.
What do you want?
He's like, I'll just get mewhatever you're having.
So I got an IPA and a shot ofMaker's Mark.
Okay.
And for each of us, and it turnsout that Wes is an IPA drinker

(01:38:51):
and he loves Maker's Mark.
And I.
Did not want to drive home thatnight because I had been
drinking and everybody else hadgot home.
Well, then I was like shit I Waslike hey, I said services in
that loop.
Oh, no, then I didn't cross theButte Didn't exist yet.
Oh, and so I was like, hey, canI stay your place?

(01:39:14):
But I was Very clear, I waslike, I am sleeping on your
couch, like, I am not doing thistonight.
And so I did.
Like, we, I, you know, we wentand we sat on his futon, we
watched Gross Point Blank.
Great movie.
And I watched Point Blank.
Oh, Gross Point Point Break.
Different.
Gotta watch Gross Point Blank.
It's a good movie.
Alright.
Um, old school.
I'm surprised you haven't heardof it.

(01:39:35):
I think it, it's tickling amemory bell, but I, you know, I,
I haven't seen it for sure.
It's your homework.
Yeah.
Okay.
And, you know, I slept on thefuton and that's it.
We just, we started spendingmore time with one another and
it had me, I don't know, I don'tmaybe.
a few weeks, a month.
Like, I was living out of town.
He came over for, I cookeddinner one night and it turns
out, like, I found out I cookedall the things he hates.

(01:39:56):
I was like, I didn't know.
I was like, I'm going to make usnice dinner.
And it's like all the things hedidn't want to eat, like salmon
filet and, uh, like mashedpotatoes and with this, all this
garlic and it's like all thisstuff that he didn't want to
eat.
And, uh, He left after dinnerthat night and nothing happened
and Not even a kissy yet?
Not yet.
And he left and I think he, itwas winter and he left his

(01:40:18):
gloves.
And he was outside trying toprobably scrape his windshield
and realized, oh my gloves areinside.
So he came in for his gloves andThat was our first kiss.
Yeah.
Like, kind of in the doorway.
Yeah.
So that was weeks after theromance kind of started.
I think so.
That's very, uh, old fashionedof you.
I was like, I'm not doing thisthe same way.
Right.
That's always yielded the sameoutcome, which was an ended
relationship, right?

(01:40:39):
I was like, we're going to dosomething different.
And how long, uh, how longbefore you guys made it official
or you are married?
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
We got married actually when Iwas in chiropractic school.
So we dated for about five yearsbefore we got married.
Okay.
Okay.
Um, like we talked about before,I dragged him out of paradise to
move to Atlanta, Georgia so Icould go to school.
But his family, he grew up inMobile, Alabama, so it was

(01:40:59):
actually really nice to be closeto his family while, for the
four years we were down there.
So we saw them a lot morebecause it was a pretty easy
drive.
And yeah, we He's like, whywouldn't I marry this girl
that's going to come out ofcollege with 185, 000?
Right?
Yeah.
It's good.
I want, was it four years ofchiropractic?
Two years?
Four.
Yeah.
Well, it's a three and a halfyear program if you go straight
through, but then I had thosesix months of undergrad work

(01:41:20):
too.
Okay.
So it's 50 grand a year ish orat least was ish at that time
with all the everything.
For sure.
Dang.
And Wes and I never talked aboutmarriage, ever.
And so when he proposed, I wascompletely shocked.
I had no idea.
Really?
No idea.
Like, you never thought aboutit?
Like you were five years in?
I mean, we were like We werehappy and he was my person and

(01:41:44):
we had the cats.
No, like, I mean, if you haven'tnoticed, I'm not the most
traditional person.
No, no.
And so I never felt at thattime, I was like, I don't need
this.
certificate just to, like, giveme confidence in my
relationship.
And could you even imagine mewearing a traditional wedding
dress, Kurt?
Um, no.
No.
Definitely not.
I've seen you at different, uh,you've won awards where I've

(01:42:06):
been the emcee.
Yes, you have.
I think that's how we first met.
Might have been.
But, yeah.
I mean, we did it our own wayand it was really cool.
Yeah.
What would be your, uh, whywould you say, um, you kept
coming back, uh, to Wes?
Was it, like, you just vibedwell?
Yeah.
Was it He He I mean, now likewe've been together for 17

(01:42:28):
years, like he really is the yinto my yang.
Like he, he's patient and he'scalm.
He's not nervous.
He's not a worrier.
Like, so all of myidiosyncrasies, like he really
balances them out really well.
And that gives me a huge senseof peace.

(01:42:48):
It's really good.
And are you likewise kind oflike exciting and stirring
things up Yeah, like He'd bejust a boring dude.
No, I don't think Wes would everbe boring.
Wes, he He doesn't have fishtacos on the beach.
I know.
And he's got just this likesleeper, awesome sense of humor.
Um, but yeah, like I, I'm kindof, I don't know, I guess the

(01:43:11):
party planner, which isinteresting role for me because
I am not like the mostextroverted person.
Like I really recharge mybatteries being home and Well,
you're all excellent executionthough, I think.
Yeah.
And so like, you know.
If we're going to be, if, if oneof us is going to be booking
like a ball or vacation, it'sgoing to be me booking it for
us, typically.
Yeah.
Did you guys ever considerchildren?

(01:43:33):
You know, for a short time.
Yeah.
Like, and I don't know that itwas ever like out of this
massive desire to have kids, butit was maybe more of like, I
don't know, like, I don't knowif I'd be okay not knowing if it
could have been, you know what Imean?

(01:43:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like, just, if it happens,great, if it doesn't happen,
great.
Right, right.
And actually now that I'm 46, Iam eternally grateful that I'm
not a mom.
Like, I love kids, I love myniece, I love caring for kids in
my practice, and I just love mylife.
And I love the simplicity of,of, you know, Being able to pick
up and go and do what I wantwhen I want to.
And, um, I, parenting, I can'teven imagine how difficult it

(01:44:15):
is.
The world's a really weirdplace.
I was like, uh, 42 maybe.
And Jill was 36 when her parentswere like, Hey, if you want to
do the IVF thing or something totry to figure it out, you know,
we'll, I was like, that'd be 60.
You know, I was like, I don't, Idon't know if I want that, you
know?
And we were still pretty brokeat the time.
Look at what you guys are doingnow.

(01:44:36):
Like you're, you're being.
You know, parents to exchangestudents.
Like, there's so many ways toadulting.
We could foster a kid orsomething if we wanted to.
Yes, 100%.
We can even adopt one as long asthey're like 14 already.
Yeah.
No diapers.
Right.
But man, parenting a teenager?
Yeah, screw that.
No thank you.
Yeah, I mean, I get enough ofthat with these exchange
students, kinda.

(01:44:57):
Yeah.
Try to, try to leave themsmarter and more grown up than
they came.
Yeah, we're cat people.
I don't like to hear that,really.
We have a cat as well, but Idon't, we don't call ourselves
cat people.
I mean, like, we also live in asmall condo.
It wouldn't be, like, ideal fora dog.
Well, cats are like, Kind of thethey're kind of a low investment

(01:45:18):
critter.
Like they're so self contained.
Yeah, they like to be petted andstuff like that But if you go
away for ten days and we sawSure, but but they don't need
it.
No, they're self contained.
Our cats are dog like.
They like being around people.
Okay, they're very social Wouldyou have a one word description
for your two cats or is it morethan one more than two?

(01:45:39):
We do we had litter mates Leoand bonkers two males.
And we lost bonkers last year.
It was really hard to lose ourbuddy, but it was also hard on
Leo, his brother.
Like he'd never been alone hiswhole life for 15 years.
He's 15 years old and he was asad boy.
And so we're like, you know, Wesand I weren't necessarily ready,

(01:46:00):
but we're like, we're going toget our cat a cat.
And so we did.
We got a, we adopted from AnimalFriends Alliance.
They're wonderful.
And so, And we got a littleCalico who was a stray and they
thought she was about a year anda half and she had just had a
litter of kittens and she waslike sort of found on the street
and taken into a foster home andwe went to meet her.
We've just fell in love withher.
She was just the sweetest,skinniest little thing.

(01:46:21):
And, um, we got her home, youknow, for two days.
Oh yeah.
So we thought she's a lunatic.
Her name is Birdie and she'sjust, uh, she's a wild cat.
And she, you know, she has a 15year old brother who.
You know, Leo's pretty chill andBernie just wants to chase him
around and fuck with his tail.
He's like, can you know.

(01:46:43):
So, you know, it's, they're notbesties, but they co exist.
They co exist like the bumpersticker.
Right.
Yeah, they're alright.
Um, politics.
We better, uh, try to beefficient with our time here to
get you out on time.
Uh, where do you politics lie?
What's your, uh Ugh, I don'tfeel like the current president.
Political system has a party ora individual that reflects my

(01:47:09):
beliefs.
Um, how did you, you didn't, uh,take a week off after the Trump
election though.
It wasn't that serious.
That's scary.
You know, I just keep on keepingon like, there's that, like, you
know, you make your voice thoughand you, you cast a vote and
that's the cool part aboutdemocracy is you accept the
outcome.
Right.
And you know, it's hard becauseI think there's ideals espoused

(01:47:31):
by the democratic party that I'mlike, yes, there's ideals
espoused by the Republicanparty.
I'm like, yes.
But at the end of the day, Aperson's a person.
How about, uh, how about Canada?
Should we take Canada as our51st state?
Have you been watching that?
I have a lot of really goodfriends in Canada.
I'd love for them to be Be astate with us.
Yeah, then we could just gothere.

(01:47:52):
Right?
No passport?
Yeah, exactly.
Drive across the border?
I don't know.
You know, I, I try to walk afine line, you know, politically
and just being like, having myhead buried in the news, like I
want to, I want to be informed.
I don't want to be ignorant towhat's happening in the world,
but I can't get lost in iteither because it's just
madness.
Well, and if, if 65 percent ofCanadians said, yeah, actually,

(01:48:14):
it sounds pretty nice to be astate instead.
That could just do it, right?
I have no idea.
That's above my pay grade.
I think I'm good at a lot ofthings.
And actually my office, there'snot a lot of rules.
Like, you know, I take what I doreally seriously as far as like
the doctoring part, but we havea great time.
We have a really upbeatenvironment in my office.
We have a great time.
Like there's always laughter andfun, but the one rule I have is

(01:48:37):
we don't talk politics in theoffice and we don't talk
religion in the office becauseeveryone comes from a different
place.
You know, I don't know who'ssitting in my lobby or in the
chair outside the adjusting roomlistening to this conversation.
And no matter what my beliefsare, it has no bearing on my
ability to care for the personin front of me.
And I would never want that tobe the reason why somebody was
put off from getting the carethat they need.
Yeah, that's fair.
Alright.
So that's the one rule I for me,I like, I think it's better to

(01:49:02):
talk about things a little bitinstead of it being like topics
that you can't talk about.
For sure.
In certain venues and.
Right.
You know.
Podcasts are probably better.
Like.
Yeah.
Like I hope it was verycomfortable talking about.
Oh, it's okay.
The faith topic.
For sure.
Earlier and just, you know,curious about matzo balls and
Hanukkah and what not also.
It's good food, man.
Yeah.
But not when I have a, like awaiting room full of people.

(01:49:22):
Right.
Like that's not the time or theplace.
If you've got matzo ball breath,you're not coming to my clinic.
Right.
Yeah, it's, I mean, it's weird.
Like, oh man, social media isjust such a weird place.
What do you think about Facebookchanging their policy?
I don't see, I did see it.
We'll see if that, uh, actuallyholds to be true.

(01:49:44):
What do you think about it?
It's like, you think it's goodfor Facebook?
That there's not fact checkers.
Right.
Or that they're more of acommunity notes model kind of
thing.
I don't know.
I don't know.
If somebody's a fact checker,they're always corruptible, it
feels like.
Of course, there's always a biasto it.
Yeah.
And no matter what you'relooking for, you're going to

(01:50:04):
find, you're going to find theanswer out there.
Like, as in, if you think you'reright, you can find evidence
there that you're right.
Right.
Uh, you know Babylon B?
Yeah.
Yeah.
They, they released their top10, uh, fact check moments of
2024 to commemorate Facebook's,uh, Zuckerberg's, so that the

(01:50:26):
top one was, uh, their articlewas, uh, CNN purchases
industrial sized washing machineto spin the news before
publication.
And Facebook threatened themwith, like, banning their
account because it wasn'tobvious that this was satire.
Oh my god.
Anyway, uh, I like the BabylonBee.

(01:50:47):
I think it's pretty hilarious.
It's funny.
I think all of that's made usincredibly dumber, though.
Social media.
Oh for sure.
Yeah.
No, I'm a pump and dump kind ofguy.
I drop my podcasts on it and Igo down the rabbit hole
sometimes and I'm like, who arethese people and why am I
looking at their photos?

(01:51:08):
The loco experience Are youprepared to share your loco
experience?
Not your loco think tankexperience?
Oh, yeah Although you can do acommercial there if you'd like
to, but the namesake of thepodcast is the craziest
experience of your lifetime thatyou're willing to share.
You know, you had prepared methat you were going to ask this

(01:51:28):
question in the email, and I, tobe honest, haven't given much
thought to it.
Well, it's best on the cuffanyway.
I know.
I, you know, we talked a lotabout like, I've had a really
eclectic life.
Yeah.
Any, like, life threateningexperiences, near deaths,
anything like that?
Thank God, no.
Okay.
Um, you know, I took some crazy911 calls, for sure.

(01:51:50):
Okay.
Yeah.
What do you think is the mostnumber of beers you've ever had
in one day?
Definitely an undergrad.
I'm just going to keep askingyou inappropriate questions.
That's fine.
Until you've come up with a goodlocal experience.
Oh gosh, like you're justdistracting me from the task at
hand.
We went to St.
Lucia.
Recently.
Yeah.
Um, and we were there for 10days and they got these little

(01:52:14):
petton, like 270 milliliter,4.5% little beers.
Yeah.
That was kind of the island beerAnd they're just like, you just
drink'em.
Especially when you're comingfrom elevation.
Sure.
So my estimate was like around150 peons in 10 days, like 15.

(01:52:34):
I would die a day for me.
I would die.
No, you wouldn't.
Like not at sea level.
Maybe.
That's like six IPAs.
I feel like I got That's likesix IPAs, seriously.
Most of my drinking behind me,seriously, when I was in high
school.
Oh, good.
Yeah.
So, um, So you don't have anyvices in the, in the drinking
days, even when you were skibombing and stuff like that?
Yeah, I mean we partied forsure, but not like heavy, crazy

(01:52:58):
stuff.
I don't know, like I've, I liketo have fun, but I also like
have this cautious part of me.
You never took a hero's dose ofmushrooms or anything like that?
No, not a hero's dose.
You don't have hero's doses?
No.
I do.
I've never experienced itpersonally, but I don't know,
like maybe I'm too much of acontrol freak to, you know, I
think, yeah, probably want tolet go like that, but maybe it'd

(01:53:18):
be good for me.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
Oh dude.
Rick Perry, uh, the formergovernor of Texas was on Rogan
advocating for Ibogaine.
That's like this like kind ofterrible gross drug, but it's
getting a lot of the PTSD Peopleand the suicidal things and
getting people off opioids.

(01:53:39):
Oh more than anything So this hewas on there with this guy from
Kentucky that got likeeverything Crossed bridges
except for the newadministration came in and
pulled the plug on doing a studyof this Ibogaine drug to mostly
to get people off the opioids,fucking people up all over
Appalachia.
Um, but it's also fucking peopleup in Texas and Wisconsin and

(01:54:00):
Nebraska and everywhere else.
And actually, you know, there'sdifferent organizations within
chiropractic that do a lot oflobbying and no one else helps
with pain relief.
Chiropractic care.
I mean, as corny as that sounds,it's true.
Like it's a natural way ofhelping people deal with pain.
So anyway, it's a reallyinteresting, um, I guess it's
kind of adjacent to thepolitical side, but with this,
like you think about Uh, withthe, the maha element of the

(01:54:22):
maggot too, right?
I hope some of that stuff istrue.
I hope we get food additives outof our supply.
Totally.
You know, I hope some of the,like, I hope, I hope.
These ideas people are gonna puttheir money where their mouths
are.
I really sincerely do agree Didyou think of anything crazy look
crazy experience?
Nothing give me like a topic.
I don't know Gosh, like I'veliterally had like seven near

(01:54:45):
death experience.
Really?
I mean, I don't like I haven'thad like a boring life by any
stretch Yeah, nothing.
So I mean anything that really Iguess to me like One thing
that's kind of crazy is like,you're like, I signed up for
this AmeriCorps thing, andthey're like, Here, drive this
truck to this place, and you'relike, I don't, I mean, But it's,
like, we kind of covered that,and it's not really crazy crazy.

(01:55:07):
It's not crazy crazy.
Have you ever done a long roadtrip to a foreign land where you
didn't really know what you weredoing?
Well, I mean, I drove to CrestedButte by myself.
Yeah, that's pretty crazy.
A week after the dude said, G.
A.
K., I'm not going.
Sure.
I mean, that was a big leap inmy life for sure.
I think going to chiropracticschool was another big leap.
Um, that's not crazy though.
It's just like seeing anopportunity and, you know, I

(01:55:31):
think the move out to CrestedButte from, I mean, the walk in
closet that you were living inwas a pretty big draw, I'm sure.
And so it was kind of, Like yousaid time to make a change.
Yeah, but I mean that changedthe trajectory of my whole life
for sure But had you even beenno to the rockies before sight
unseen?
I didn't know I was moving toliterally a town at the end of a

(01:55:52):
dead end road 1100 people I hadno idea And now I think honestly
having traveled more of thestate of colorado after being
you know, i've been here for along time I still think that's
the most beautiful place, youknow one thing that uh, People
say like one thing that'sinteresting about marriage.
You've been 17 years You is thatit's like, you don't, you don't

(01:56:13):
stay married to the same person.
Like we all have these differentchapters in our life.
And that's one reason to bemarried is so that provided you
both want to stay, like you'rejust patient enough to weather
some of these changes inchapters or whatever.
For sure.
So, and I mean, I'm so glad tohave somebody to come home to

(01:56:34):
that almost doesn't live in thesame world, right?
Like that's why we have ourentrepreneurial peers because
they get what we were goingthrough.
And it's just nice to come homeand be like, let's just start
Watch the episode of Bad TV.
Do you want to give a shout outto, uh Either Moses, uh, my
landlord here, uh, chapter, yourchapter facilitator for sure.

(01:56:54):
So I, I think we started, Imean, this is going to sound
super weird.
I started in 2019.
I, the reason I remember that isbecause that's the year my mom
passed away and I rememberhaving one of my first chapter
meetings and it was literallylike, I was probably June of
2019 cause my mom passed in Mayand you know, we do these check
ins and they're, you know, at ascale of zero to 10, how you
doing personally?
I'm like, like two, like prettyshitty, but these are people

(01:57:15):
that I just met and I'm like,yeah, I don't know how.
Deep of a dive to take and, andyou know, so many of those
people who were in that roomthat day are still in the room.
And I'm so grateful.
Like Moses is an incrediblefacilitator.
Like he's just got all theseyears of experience and he's
willing to share it from his ownabundance.

(01:57:36):
Right.
Like, and it's like, I lookforward to it.
Like, you know, when we firsttalked, I'm like, I got to sit
in a room for four hours.
But like, I look forward to thatevery single month.
And like that.
I let go of a lot of stuff likeduring COVID as far as, um,
memberships and groups and allthis stuff that I was doing,
because you know, what you getout of something is what you're

(01:57:57):
able to put into it.
And I realized it was a goodtime to evaluate a lot of that
stuff.
And I was like, well, you know,here's what I'm keeping and
here's what I'm letting go of.
And I'm so grateful, like for mygroup, like they have become
really important people in mylife and people who understand
like the ins and outs of what wego through.
So like, I think that's, uh,Testament to you and like what

(01:58:20):
you've created the space thatyou've created to help us, you
know, it's the space Yes, it'sthe but it's the people that
create experience, you know,yeah And I mean, I don't know
what other chapters are like,but I like to think we're the
best you're right up thereYou're right up there.
You just can't say it If peoplewant to look up precision
Precisionchiropractic.

(01:58:40):
org or com or something likethat?
Yes, there's a lot of PrecisionChiropractics and ironically I
know most of them across thecountry, right?
So we're PrecisionChiroCO.
com Okay, got it.
Yep, CO for Colorado.
And do you do like, Instagramsor LinkedIn?
Yep, so it's uh, I suck at thesocial media thing for my
business.
Like I put stuff up there, likewe have a platform that

(01:59:02):
automatically solicits reviewfrom patients.
So when people leave us reviews,they automatically post our
social media.
Like, I don't mind it.
Like, I don't take care of itthat much, but we are on
Instagram and Facebook atPrecision Chiro CO and I have a
personal LinkedIn profile.
Jay Brewer, DC.
Cool.
Yep.
Anything you want to ask mebefore we wrap up?
What do you think about thetank?

(01:59:22):
I think it's really cool.
You've been inside it before,right?
We've been inside it, yep.
I thought so.
Um, when we were at your place.
We need to, um, be better abouttrying to, I would like to do a,
uh, like at least a maybe three,four, five.
Riggs camping trip and go up tosome kind of national forest,
maybe just up to Veda Vu area.
Yeah, for sure up there.
Yeah, it's sweet.
We could hike, we could ridebikes.
Totally.

(01:59:42):
Let's do it.
Okay, let's get a weekend.
Loco van extravaganza.
Yep, Camperoo.
We're in.
All right.
Okay.
Thanks, Jade.
Thanks, Kurt.
Bye for now.
Bye.

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EXPERIENCE 204 | Building Health on a Strong Foundation - Jane Brewer, Upper Cervical Chiropractor and Owner of Precision Chiropractic

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}EXPERIENCE 204 | Building Health on a Strong Foundation - Jane Brewer, Upper Cervical Chiropractor and Owner of Precision Chiropractic