December 22, 2025 • 32 mins
Avatar: Fire and Ash is the weakest instalment of James Cameron’s trilogy.
We discuss the many ways in which the movie betrays the franchise’s core values, the illogical directions that Cameron sends Jake Sully in, and the loose ends that the film ends with.
We also talk about the lack of humour and self-awareness, the poor dialogue, and the incomprehensible third act action sequences.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:16):
Hi, I'm Akara. The number one welcome.
The long take. This week, we're discussing the
new James Cameron movie. Of course, it's called Avatar.
It's the third one in the franchise.
It's coming like three years after the last one.
Surprisingly, you didn't take a decade.
So I guess congratulations to everyone in the world.
Yeah, this is nowhere near on the level of the second one,
which I think you remember. Both of us enjoying what
(00:37):
happened here. Yeah, I think they it, they did
a dhurandar with this one, rightwhere they didn't know where to
cut the story and where to like,yeah, like this movie was
supposed to be a single movie and then they were like, let's
make 2 and now it's just too long and this.
Yeah, like this. Like, almost like an excellent
(00:57):
epilogue of the second one. Yeah.
So many things are being like revisited, rehashed.
Like I love the water action sequence, which was like,
probably like 4 sequences in onesequence.
In the second one. It was like, it showed like, you
know, like I think it came like,then we came a few months after
the Ryan Coogler Black Panther one second sequel and I was
like, oh, this is how you do a proper water sequence.
(01:19):
And now I'm like, you are doing the same thing again and this
time your water sequence is terrible.
Yeah, I mean, see the water sequences I was so like
mesmerized by in the second one that I didn't mind.
Or the Cardona like or how couldit be better, you know, give me
that like high frame rate, whatever, underwater diving and
(01:39):
all that stuff. I really, I dug that that and
all the veil stuff. There's more veils here.
All that really good. What I didn't and I like this
movie mostly. Like for two hours I was like on
board. Right.
I was no, I was, I think out like within the 1st 3035
minutes. That's all that's painful then,
(01:59):
because when you have like 2 1/2hour, yeah.
Now it's like, what are these scatters doing and why are they
doing this? And why are they taking so long
to do the same thing that they were doing before?
It was really weird because the movie, they do like some really
wild stuff, like Jake does some really wild stuff which you
never see coming and it's completely like against him as
(02:21):
the person that we've been introduced to.
Like he firstly, it escalates, right?
He's like Spider, go away, we will banish you.
Which is like so weird because he's the Family Guy, right?
We will protect everybody. He's protecting like random
people he doesn't even know, butlike Spider, which is over you
and then. Ten years later, the kids are
(02:42):
like, we will not like do this. This is insane.
Like even not like, you know, wejust lost one of our like
brothers, siblings. We not like that we would do
this. And then they're like, OK, OK,
we just go send, you know, send them off together.
And everyone's agrees. And I was like.
So it only happens so to kind ofstart.
The move forward, yeah. It happens because then that's
(03:04):
the only way James Cameron figured he could introduce the
fire people. Yeah, who show up like pirates
in the middle. Like, it's totally by chance
that they show up, right? It's not like Agar Matlavo,
Egged and Bhadnikal did. I don't know if the movie would
have existed, you know? I don't know.
Some like, at least it was set up so that I bought because like
the guy who was like taking off with them, he's like, please
(03:24):
expect like readers. They've been getting more
concerns and I was like OK, theywere expecting readers but I'm
like the level of aggression they showed.
So if like Jake Sully and Nathiri were not with them, they
would have been like massacred. How did the fear make get to the
reef in the 1st place like that?How did the initial journey
happen if the return journey? Sort of?
Yeah, and it's sort of that, butlove Jake and who have beaten
(03:46):
the Sky people like twice before.
Yeah. And they're like.
Wing for that they're just like the scar like nothing.
The entire like feet comes down.I'm like how are these guys
trading anything? It's a total loss.
Which then begs the obvious question, like, where were these
guys earlier? Yeah, yeah, I.
Feel like an invention, right? It's almost like he's making up
the story as he goes along and you're like, Oh no, that's
actually what he's doing. Which is like the Harry Potter
(04:09):
thing, right, With the book 5 May or like this existed the
whole time. Why didn't you just come up with
it? And you're like, yeah, yeah, she
just came up with it anyway, So whatever.
That's that again, like movie logic, whatever, move around,
like forget it. What is even Wilder is when he's
like, I will kill you. That was like 8 second.
(04:32):
Like Spider is that important? So the whole trope of like
Logan, Children of Men, Last of Us, the child has something like
some superpower that can be harnessed.
Yeah, either for like the old oreither for bad, but like, yeah,
to the but the protagonist is like, I don't care what happens
to the world, I will save this person.
(04:54):
Yeah. And that is what you to them,
right. The stories you just mentioned,
all of them, you're like, Oh my God.
Like insane choice but I love this guy.
I thought he was doing. This guy is like seeing the
bigger picture. He's like, no, wait, our planet
is more important so one kid candie.
But I'm like, I don't actually care because I don't care about
(05:15):
Pandora. I care about Spider because I
see him all day. Yeah.
And so like store out of left field that till the very end
when he's like, so Neti is like saying whatever and you buy that
because she's always been a little suspicious of.
Just like I get that from her because she has no like human
connection directly, right? Like and she.
(05:35):
Says in like direct words, like I've lost everything, right,
because of these people. So I can understand that you
project that hate onto whoever looks like the people.
Exactly. That is, you know, and the movie
addresses that the movie The Jake query, like indirect word
says that, you know, like you can't like get angry, you can't
be hateful, all that all that stuff.
And then he's like, I'll kill. It's so unbelievable that even
(05:59):
after he has pulled spider into the forest to kill him, I have
not believed it. I'm like, they want to pull the
rug from under her feet. Obviously someone do that.
So I mean, it's one of those things, right?
A rapist is not someone who actually commits rape, he's the
person who thinks about committing a rape.
That will be equally insane hair, will be equally evil hair,
(06:19):
and a person who thinks about killing their whatever adopted
child is weird. Is is insane that this is the
protagonist movie? Why did that happen?
I don't know. Yeah.
And why did he, like, think about that for so long?
It's not like he thought about for two seconds and like, Oh my
God, what are they thinking? It's so weird.
And then and then and then she jumps in and she like name
(06:40):
Akmar, but. Before that already had the
change of mind, so her arrival is almost like meaningless.
Yeah, the damage has been done, right.
You're like it's like one of themost epic kind of shoot yourself
in the foot moments like I thinkon a movie The size, right?
Like why would you do this at this?
Stage and I wouldn't mind if that actually was like a trigger
to like essentially have like spider be like, how the hell
(07:00):
could you do that? I am like now leaving your side
or something like that. But it's not like the movie goes
there. No, he just like, oh, OK, never
mind. He literally says it's OK, I
know I must die now and be one with the AOL.
Stop talking in like lower talk as a human being dialogue is
like so poor every 10 minutes that I was like Oh my God, I
(07:22):
want to like I finally find the script right and then like punch
him in the face. I'm like, can you please go back
and like redo it again? Yeah, I was like quite strong
whiff of George Lucas on this one.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. George Lucas Some like episode
1-2 and three. Yeah, the prequels, yeah.
So I had like the opposite reaction.
Like I was also like quite annoyed by the dialogue and I
(07:45):
was quite like pointedly noticing, K I thought James
Cameron does not know jokes. We thought Christopher Nolan was
bad at humor, but like, he's actually better than James
Cameron because there was so many moments where you're like,
somebody needs to call out what's happening on screen so
that they can wink at us or tellus that they're on the same
(08:06):
page. Because in the end, so much
that, like, you remember the scene where, like, Jake, Jake is
like, in some cage in front of like, a viewing public, and then
four independent missions are staged to break him out.
Yeah. All four, none of them have
contacted each other and it's just four happening
simultaneously. Spider has escaped from the lab
(08:27):
and he's just hanging out in public in front of everyone.
Yeah, yeah, barely these guys. And then and these guys like
what? Nothing.
There's not these guys. Yeah, Netidi is coming.
And then the random person out of nowhere, they're Yeah, I
love. This entrance like they are at
this point they do not give any care of like how this stage are
breaking right, because it's like these guys are allowed in.
(08:50):
So that's crazy that you know, quality should just bring in his
new ash people buddies and they come into the base of humans and
they're like yeah, you just keephold on to your weapons and I'm
like what no, that would never happen.
They will be asked to surrender all of the weapons.
So that's crazy one. Secondly, they're allowed to go
in and come out whenever they want.
So some of them go out again because that's how Nathir is
(09:10):
able to like capture one of themand get the badge that she needs
all important badge and she justcasually then strolls into the
base. I'm like, are we in the 1970s
James One territory now? Isn't the stupidest thing is
like the So I get it when they do it once, but when they do it
three times when Jake and Koragekind of team up, yeah.
Yeah, but then like before that there is again, like Nathan is
(09:31):
the way that she comes in. So they also live the same way.
Like literally everyone's after them.
There's like a giant helicopter like after like Spider and Jake
and Nathan then comes in, takes out the helicopter and she just
disappears on the base. And then next shot they jump cut
to like morning. And I'm like, but how did they
escape the base? That's the all important thing
here. Walt Disney Nebola police card
though, Sir. It's one of those things, right?
(10:00):
Like it's like Marines honor briefly.
We will not kill each other. Yeah, I was like 8 second.
You guys were literally trying to kill each other.
Like I would not be that honorable.
Like if I haven't like 4 times in this movie, 20 seconds after
they were trying to kill each other.
Yeah, yeah. I don't buy it.
See, I don't buy it at all. If you do it once and they have
(10:21):
to be teammates for the entire movie, they can't just keep
going back and forth. Yeah, you know, And it's like
one of those obvious, like writing choices.
Like I'm like each second to Agar usne beside Karthi, I'm
briefly up in a truce called Karina.
Then you can't go back on it. Right.
The more interesting thing is for them to kind of team up and
then him having. Yeah, like.
Show the moral like quandary of like quarters being like
(10:41):
actually like this is insane. I care about spider more about
than like the entire like human position.
Like it's all and that's, but they're not really pushing into
that. Like everyone keeps reverting
back to that programming of like, Oh no, but I am in this in
this alliance. Screw your alliance.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Similarly, like would have been
more interesting like the the four independent rescue machines
(11:03):
that I was talking about, it would have been more interesting
for them to kind of by chance collide and all four of them to
be like each second year also inthe same thing.
That was so much that in city first you'll be funny, then you
will get to see your team up sequence of like them
coordinating and doing this properly because it is actually
an insane thing that that you need like to get him out of this
(11:24):
thing that he's surrounded by everyone like that would need a
coordinate effort. So there will be great on that
level and then you will get likeextended sequence of like a
prison break thing. But no, let's just like, make it
happen. Also on like a thematic level,
right? Because he is like some sort of
spiritual leaders at the APL andfor him to inspire multiple
characters to rescue him from. All sides.
(11:46):
Like the guy does it like Jimin Clemont does it.
Basically, he's a plot device because he he's not important in
the movie before that scene and he's not imprisoned in the movie
after that scene. So I'm like your entire point in
the movie from three hour to 20 of the movie for like 5 minutes
is to ride 1 bulldozer and get him out.
Yeah, and he's like 4. 100. Yeah, yeah, that's like 6 hours
(12:07):
a movie. He exists only for this.
It's crazy strange because like the Michelle Rodriguez character
did similar stuff in the first movie, but she she was she was a
presence throughout the movie. She just show up at the end,
right, Which is, I mean, the same person made both movies.
I don't understand. Yeah, I don't understand.
That's what, how can you, the same guy, actually shot these
(12:28):
movies like back-to-back so thatthe kid actors wouldn't age too
much, right. So this movie has been in the
can for like some four years I think.
By the way, like in the same movie, a 70 year old is playing
a 13 year old, so it doesn't matter.
Which has been normally been like, canonically justified,
right? So like, you can't fight that
anymore. But yeah, the problem is how can
(12:49):
he, this guy who made like the same movie just like cut into
two parts because it was too long?
Like this first half is so greatand the second-half is like.
I don't know. I think there's also like
someone needs to come in and be like, Sir, I understand, but I.
Don't think he allows that, right?
I think like games Cameron is like in his own island making
these movies. No one is from Disney ever
(13:12):
visits him unless they are like Sir Call Final Cut are like OK
he can we screen it? Yeah, yeah, I mean famously
egotistic. It's like that level of control
now, like it's like pre production, production
everything. He has final cuts to say on.
Yeah, but you know, like you canyou watching this movie, you can
tell like there's too much like there's too many threads that
you can't resolve that is factory like there's the Curry
(13:33):
thing that comes out of nowhere like she's feeling.
Like we get intermission in India.
So like the scene that happens with at Varang's base when he
the quarter which visits them tolike get them on their side and
then she does the whole like drug scene inside the tent.
I was like, that scene needs to come 60 minutes before.
That's the only the only interesting bit of the movie is
(13:53):
the weird horny stuff that they get up to.
Yeah, that scene needs to happenlike in the 1st 20 minutes
because you need to establish how this character is going to
be the new villain. And you're doing this way too
late and I don't care why. Like you suddenly have this like
essentially new like faction that is going to play like
issues and everything. Like there's a seem like another
like tool in quadratches like thing and not expensive.
(14:15):
Like that's what I loved about the 1st to 2nd movie is that you
introduce me to a new part of the planet.
You jump like so much that time that you could expand and
introduce entire new family. There was enough to like, you
know, latch onto the OK, I'm learning new things on the
person side, new things on the planet side, new things on like
the human side. And this is feels like, Oh, we
just took one more step out of the house and I'm like, I just
saw this three years ago. Also like after the 1st 30
(14:39):
minutes or whatever the emotional toll of having lost a
son isn't felt like I feel that should be hanging over that.
Should be the drive through of the entire movie.
Yeah, as opposed to sometimes, you know, taking up arms is OK,
which I feel is the ultimate message that the movie kind of
lands on, which is also like, weird in its own way.
(15:01):
Like it goes again that. Convinced way too soon.
I think eventually the tool coneto like just become like violent
now like the entire time they'relike, no, no, we won't do
anything but. It's not just the tool cone,
right? It's also the Navi.
We forgetting that? Yeah, when we were introduced to
these people, he was saying sorry.
Like literally saying sorry to like a John War for hurting the
(15:23):
John War. It was why they also refused to
touch like metal weapons becausethey're like, no, this is like
way too like easy. Like this is how you end up with
like mass killings. Sure.
It goes, again, like every character, it kind of goes
against what they are fundamentally or what they were
fundamentally introduced. This is not just character
development, you know, it just goes against who they are.
(15:43):
Like it's not a bad person turning worse or a good person
becoming which. Is why I think eventually what
happens is like this is you can tell this is an American at some
level making this movie because he's just bringing his mindset
and like forgetting the people or the culture he created.
Which is ironic because he wantsto the 1st 2 movies are all
about highlighting how that is more important than what we
think is important. Like western culture feels the
(16:07):
dominant culture. But it might not be because and
and the movie was very critical of Like America about American
foreign policy. Yeah, like the first movie is
literally the Iraq war. Yeah, and the second movie is
fully so even I would argue thismovie come first ish is very
critical of like it's critical of the oppressor, right?
It's critical of the invader andAmerica is the invader in
(16:31):
virtually every global conflict.So it is very self aware in that
sense. But then when you turn the
oppressed into versions of the oppressor, then you're kind of
going against the very nature ofthe story that you're telling,
right? Because who's to know that
tomorrow, Jake, Sully, whatever team of Navi won't fight the
(16:53):
fire people and make them? Honestly it's so annoying also
because their motivation isn't really established.
Like why is Varang doing it off beyond the point of Oshi wants
like power on some level she's. Been angry at Ava for not.
I don't know, yeah. So you should see she's taking
out their anger on, like, other people of, like, of her kind.
(17:14):
Yeah. So it's like she started civil
war on some level. But I don't feel like, like,
motivation enough. It just feels like you've handed
the humans like more Alice. Yeah, I mean, Kiri is also angry
at Ava, right? But then Kiri, I don't know if
the movie is trying to do this deliberately.
Like both of them are kind of questioning their faith, but
then one kind of understand on adeeper level and the other one
(17:35):
has kind of renounced it and they are evil for doing that.
I don't know. Because then there are I don't
know where Varang goes at the end.
Like that's a big hole in my mind.
Like I don't know what happens to her and she doesn't die.
She's like they're trying to like.
Appear Yeah, yeah. From the movie like.
Conveniently keeping her alive for like the next two parts if
they want to bring her back. I don't know what happens to
Paya Khan. Maybe he's dead, maybe he's not.
(17:57):
I don't know. Yeah.
I also love how like the Paya Khan collect the elder all those
elders show up to like start thekick off the fight and because
then they warned the ash people to take over in the fight and
change the narrative the big dudes just like disappear mid
fight. And somebody says it right?
Yeah. I'm like, but there was just
here toppling ships, where are they now?
(18:18):
Yeah, it's very confusing. And in the LA towards the end,
it knows all the fighting or other things or other.
There was so much like stuff on screen where I'm wondering if
like, so people complain that the Russo brothers can't frame a
shot, but Cameron was always supposed to be the guy who knows
how to design an action seek. Which is literally what he
(18:39):
praised him for like 3 years agoand never do.
He's like Oh my God, we like youcould tell the choreography and
like I knew what the setting waslike you know, this was the
fighting, this laid out the stage of like oh this is where
the everything was. This is the objective.
I think the second we is very like even though it's expensive,
it's knows it has like a straight line through that This
is what one side is trying to achieve.
This is what the other side is trying to achieve and we can go
(19:02):
towards those goals. Yahape, the motivations are so
weird and they keep changing. As we've talked about with
Korich and like Jake, every 10 minutes is that you just like in
your mind, you're confused like in the scene, what are what is
ex party trying to achieve? I have no idea anymore.
Yeah. Yeah, it's also like Jake is
supposed to be the protector, right?
The silent story protector. But then he gets so nervous
(19:25):
about letting LOAC do anything like take responsibility in the
first half of the movie. Like he's letting me do ya bad.
You won't move. You're not.
Ready. Yeah, at the same time, he will
complain when he doesn't wear his like calms and be like, why
were you not in the air and I called you.
So like it's always very confusing where he doesn't want
him to pass him and doesn't wanthim to participate.
(19:46):
No verse right, because in the second-half he's like, oh, so
you want to go and like go on a dangerous mission in the ocean
to find Paya Khan good luck. Bye bye.
Why is he not worried sick the whole time?
He's he's. Is an actual peril law is, you
know, like we see that see sequence where he's like almost
(20:07):
drowning and stuff, almost dead.Yeah.
But they don't cut back to like,what, Jake Soli kind of being
worried out of his mind. Oh, my God, my other son is
gone. You know, even though that's
what he's supposed to be most concerned about, like protecting
family. How are you allowing your son to
go on like? This years after like the second
(20:28):
movie. This is like probably few weeks
or months after. It was insane.
Like it doesn't make sense for Jake to be like hard tikka tuja.
It doesn't make sense for Nateeri to be like hardikka tuja
side quest Kirkya. It doesn't make sense only it
makes sense only when you when you're like oh so of course the
whales need to be someone and this guy needs to be the one who
does the summoning so that the father learns to respect him.
(20:52):
And that's the only reason why this entire 2 hour thing is
happening. We so.
Lost I'm so I was so confused bythe end because they kept
cutting two people just so that they could like declare what
they were doing. Actually.
They're like I'm those second tothe kids and they're going to
declare ABI hum yekar nawali andthey record back to those
(21:12):
people. Then Korich is fighting again.
Then Korich dies for no reason. I don't know if he's dead or
because we don't see him dead. No RSC seen him.
Like this is the whole like Marvel has this problem as well
now even advertise the problem like you.
You want the gravitas of killinga character and audience to feel
that, but then you also like want to cheat that and then
bring them potentially back if you want later.
(21:34):
So now he's walking back right? He's saying that he doesn't want
to do more right. Which is like he, I think he
always had to like undersell these things.
And the moment the movie toucheslike one 1.5 billion, then he'll
be like, oh great, look at what I what I delivered.
I'm the greatest, I think of theworld.
Yeah, this is a guy who, like, won his Oscar.
He literally declared that on the Oscar stage.
So like what? Do you expect from her that's
(21:55):
true? He does that.
I don't know what he means at this time, Yeah.
But I just at the same point, like you were discussing, you
know, like I'm talking about howhe's like betraying the whole
Navi thing is set up. And I feel like he's also like
giving up things that he himselfhad like put in early on in
terms of even like mainstream appeal.
So this movie, the first movie, the Navi exclusively talking
their language, right? So Jigsaw is the outsider.
(22:17):
He has to like learn the language and notice the culture
of the language still. And the movie has lots of titles
and all of that. In this one, he just gives that
up. Everyone's talking English.
No, but in the second movie theykind of explain in a very, I
thought efficient way, right where they where Jake, Sally
basically says that, listen, everybody's talking in their
native language, but I understand it now.
(22:39):
So because I understand it, the audience understands it.
But one of Jake said he's not inthe scene.
I mean, you're right, but it's like this.
They do have Qantas talking to your life Varang and I'm like
why is this scene in English at this point?
But then when when Qantas and Varang reached like the base and
they're actually talking in 2 languages because you can tell
because when college talks to the general, Varang can't
(23:00):
understand that. But I'm like they're both
talking in English but OK. One English and the other
English. Yeah, yeah.
And then Jake and Korich also talk in English and then they
switch to Navi. Let's see, this is the ideas of
so I don't even go there. Yeah, But I think this is
basically like a a little symptom of like how little like
(23:23):
the West or Americans like, wantto read subtitles.
So eventually every film maker will give up things like this.
They're built in their world just to appeal to like the
masses. Hey, at least the veil had
subtitles. Only when they choose to and
then sometimes they have. But I know sometimes like the
leader of the reef will translate.
I don't like why you're talking.I can just get subtitles right
now. Everybody, and I don't know,
(23:46):
like only is like the leader, the only person who would
understand the whales. I have no idea.
Like sometimes they'll do like hand signals for some of the
whales. Some of the whales, they don't
need hang signals. And I'm like confused.
I'm like, some of them are like deaths.
I'm not there. No, if we are going to go down
this road, the whales also have like clothes.
That was insane to me. The whales have like chains and
chains, but they have like banners.
(24:08):
And I'm like, how does this work?
When you're underwater? You don't get strangled by your
own banner. And who made it?
There's a question you do not want to ask because the movie
examples. So we don't go there, don't want
to ask these good. It's chains like chains as in
like the Sky people sort of the.Chains are like the chains of
(24:30):
like, you know, power. They have self constructed the
chains to show it's like standing.
They don't have a possible thumbs, but they have their
jewelry. I don't know how that works.
It's one of those things where James Cameron was there.
You won't ask these questions. You just roll with it.
Yeah. But then because the movie
doesn't work for us and now we're.
Yeah, yeah, I'm. Sure, doing all of this.
Yeah, I'm sure this stuff was there in the 2nd and the first
(24:51):
one also where nobody cared about it, but this one you're
like 8 second. Where does this franchise go
from there? Like also what I love is that
these some at least the first two, we don't know about this
one, but the first two movies are like the top 2 grossing
movies in the top whatever threeor five all time, right?
Like cinema history, all of that.
So they're popular movies, but somehow they are like culturally
(25:14):
irrelevant. Like no one will come up to you
and talk about Avatar ever. That's weird, right?
Nobody does that. But then everybody seems to
watch these movies like there are full like uncle aunties
coming to watch these movies like it's.
Right. I think how is a kind of
franchise be so popular at one level and then also be so
unpopular at the same time? So Cameron had a very.
(25:34):
It made sense. The answer to that is that there
is no additional media to support the friend.
It's just the movies. So but.
That doesn't happen with like stuff like, I don't know, like
New Orleans Dark Knight, but like you will, someone will
bring it up like at least once ayear.
Yeah, but then you Batman is like a constant presence, right?
Whereas this is only this existsonly in the movies and nothing
(25:57):
else. So you have nothing else to kind
of drive that conversation. Sure, but I.
Got to show us like it's also like not distinct enough like
the movie start. Like now I know because I just
saw three, spent three hours with them.
And then when the movie starts, all I remember is Jake and
Netri's names. I could not remember any of the
kids, what they what they were called until then.
I remembered what said out loud.I'm like, OK, Lola, OK.
I had no idea. So that's smartly What he does
(26:18):
is like, initially for the firsthour, he has everybody repeat
names loudly over and over. Yeah.
Because, you know, like no one'sgonna remember.
Yeah. Even though I remembered Like
Spider, I remembered Piya Khan. I remembered Nitam, the kid who
dies. No, do not remember.
All I remember was like Jake andNiteri and everything.
When I started talking I was like OK, I had a faint memory of
(26:40):
like this but I if you had askedme before the movie was like
what are the kids called? Like pop quiz, I could not have
not done it. Possible, yeah.
Which is why he, I suppose, has everybody, like, call people by
their names over and over again.Yeah.
At least three years or whatever.
Like I said do the the movie andyou ask me like what is the Ash
person called? Like leader called I would not
be able to tell it. Like you could give me 5 guesses
(27:00):
and I will not be able to get it.
I forgot AB when we were making notes.
I forgot the name. AB I remember, like I think I'll
remember like maybe until like afew weeks if you keep asking me
that now, because I have told myself now I can't just
remember. But if you just ask me randomly
out of the blue and out of four drops, I'd be like, no idea.
Yeah, I mean, it's one of those things I it feels very like up
in the. Air, but it doesn't happen when
(27:20):
I say like there's not been a new Mandarin season for like
ages. But I know the guys called grow.
Yeah, I don't know. That's one of those weird
conversations where you're like,yeah, we'll check back in when
you're ready. Yeah.
But like otherwise, you have no staying power.
I don't know, like, honestly, for maybe like it's very
difficult to predict how things are going to be, but like it is
(27:41):
a very like nobody has done this.
Like there are things that I sawin these 3 movies that I've
never seen before, right? And, and the leaps and bounds,
like even between movies, like the quality of the water.
Yeah, yeah, is. Especially the 1st and 2nd
movie. The leap is insane.
The leap is insane. This one and the second one feel
feel a little like similar. Yeah, but like the Varun
(28:03):
character, there were scenes in which we had like close-ups of
her and I could have sworn that it was just make up.
Like you can't tell it's digital.
Yeah, like, you know, all the VFX stuff with like the motion
capture stuff is now so good that I think it took me like 2
hours and I was like, wait, they're not actually blue
people. Like this is data computer.
Yeah. Like everything is in the
(28:24):
computers, right? Nothing is real.
And like that person, you could see that the pose on their skin
and that stuff wasn't. And maybe it was just the IMAX
that I was watching. It was very good, but I don't
know if it was there in the first one.
Definitely. Like yeah, first one I think was
like definitely outdated from like now, but like a second like
the huge jump with like all the waters that you mentioned now
the skin stuff is so real. You forget that this is not
(28:46):
actually human being being shot.Yeah, the skin is really good in
this and skin and water. I think it really.
Leaps and that like helps you sell it so much that you forget
you actually feel like you are our on Pandora.
Which is, yeah, when it's good, it's good, right?
These movies like that. A version is top notch it just
he needs to allow some external like writing like let's just pay
Someone Like You know you have no endless you know people who
(29:10):
are like good writer like give it to like Craig Mason or
something the 4th one like let him write some huh?
Just. Get like an army of like
rewrites. Which I think he has.
He had like a writer's room and all.
He's set up for the scene. Yeah, but not like enough to
like take the top credit was like he's involved in top
credit. He's also credited for editing
(29:31):
this time. Amazing.
He's like a vanga. Yeah, yeah, this point like it's
a full too much control. But yeah, I don't know, It feels
like the ending of this movie felt very abrupt to me.
I don't know where. Yeah.
I can't figure out like where it'll go.
Like it's almost like it's like a soft reset at this point and
he needs another like jump 10 years because anyway he'll end
up dropping 10 years because everyone will have grown older
(29:51):
by time he shoots the next one. I.
Suppose like Spider is supposed to be the next hero hero.
But you need somebody to like bridge the gap between the two
races. And I say Jake Sally was
anointed in the first one. So that's what I but I really
doubt that there'll be more though of these movies.
(30:12):
I think that's like one thing I don't put put past Cameron that
because he just has that weight in the industry.
Like even if this movie was not,I do 2 billion there when he can
get under made. It all depends on whether he
wants to make. And if he stays alive?
That too. And the only thing is because he
will have to make like, it's notlike if he walks away, he won't
allow someone else to make this.Yeah, this young child lives and
dies with him. Yeah.
(30:35):
I mean, Terminator, we've seen what what happened to that one.
They have a Terminator referencein this one though, quite
obviously. But yeah.
He has allowed other people to do that and that Francis has
gone to the dogs, yeah. And he's famously fought with
them also, though I don't know. I don't really.
Yeah. We'll, we'll think about it a
decade later. I guess we as we'll go back to
(30:57):
regularly scheduled program which is never thinking about
these movies. Exactly.
And then we like, what was the third kid in the row called?
Tuk. Tuk, who has like a different
name. I realized Tuk is not her.
Yeah, Tuk. It seems like the shorter the
full name is, the grand mom pronounces and like, oh OK, you
know it's going to go. Or to confuse career.
(31:20):
Yeah, you know, by Avatar fight.Oh my.
God, and Kitty will be like living on some like Luke
Skywalker or something. Yeah, I mean, see, to your
point, like this movie doesn't have like that strong cultural
kind of fandom is that if this was Star Wars, then the
(31:40):
supposedly the fans of this franchise would be a ghost.
Like they would be up in arms over what he does Jake Sully
does in this movie more than what they were over Luke
Skywalker. And like there's.
No one who's obsessed enough to like make those conversations
happen. Which is why this movie just
disappears from like cultural and like a few months after.
(32:01):
At least no one feel as stronglyto be like, eh, what about that?
Yeah, that's quite like disheartened, especially when
it's like really long also. I mean, I think even the second
one was long, but then I didn't mind it because it was
enjoyable, which this one was not on the serial level anyway.
Yes, Yep, Yep. That's all for this episode of
(32:22):
The Long Take. You can follow us on Facebook,
YouTube, Instagram and Threads at the Long Take Board.
You can write to us at the Long Take board@gmail.com.
Please use the rating and reviewwhere every episode and we will
see next week. Thanks for listening.
Bye.
Hi, I'm Akara. The number one welcome.
The long take. This week, we're discussing the
new James Cameron movie. Of course, it's called Avatar.
It's the third one in the franchise.
It's coming like three years after the last one.
Surprisingly, you didn't take a decade.
So I guess congratulations to everyone in the world.
Yeah, this is nowhere near on the level of the second one,
which I think you remember. Both of us enjoying what
(00:37):
happened here. Yeah, I think they it, they did
a dhurandar with this one, rightwhere they didn't know where to
cut the story and where to like,yeah, like this movie was
supposed to be a single movie and then they were like, let's
make 2 and now it's just too long and this.
Yeah, like this. Like, almost like an excellent
(00:57):
epilogue of the second one. Yeah.
So many things are being like revisited, rehashed.
Like I love the water action sequence, which was like,
probably like 4 sequences in onesequence.
In the second one. It was like, it showed like, you
know, like I think it came like,then we came a few months after
the Ryan Coogler Black Panther one second sequel and I was
like, oh, this is how you do a proper water sequence.
(01:19):
And now I'm like, you are doing the same thing again and this
time your water sequence is terrible.
Yeah, I mean, see the water sequences I was so like
mesmerized by in the second one that I didn't mind.
Or the Cardona like or how couldit be better, you know, give me
that like high frame rate, whatever, underwater diving and
(01:39):
all that stuff. I really, I dug that that and
all the veil stuff. There's more veils here.
All that really good. What I didn't and I like this
movie mostly. Like for two hours I was like on
board. Right.
I was no, I was, I think out like within the 1st 3035
minutes. That's all that's painful then,
(01:59):
because when you have like 2 1/2hour, yeah.
Now it's like, what are these scatters doing and why are they
doing this? And why are they taking so long
to do the same thing that they were doing before?
It was really weird because the movie, they do like some really
wild stuff, like Jake does some really wild stuff which you
never see coming and it's completely like against him as
(02:21):
the person that we've been introduced to.
Like he firstly, it escalates, right?
He's like Spider, go away, we will banish you.
Which is like so weird because he's the Family Guy, right?
We will protect everybody. He's protecting like random
people he doesn't even know, butlike Spider, which is over you
and then. Ten years later, the kids are
(02:42):
like, we will not like do this. This is insane.
Like even not like, you know, wejust lost one of our like
brothers, siblings. We not like that we would do
this. And then they're like, OK, OK,
we just go send, you know, send them off together.
And everyone's agrees. And I was like.
So it only happens so to kind ofstart.
The move forward, yeah. It happens because then that's
(03:04):
the only way James Cameron figured he could introduce the
fire people. Yeah, who show up like pirates
in the middle. Like, it's totally by chance
that they show up, right? It's not like Agar Matlavo,
Egged and Bhadnikal did. I don't know if the movie would
have existed, you know? I don't know.
Some like, at least it was set up so that I bought because like
the guy who was like taking off with them, he's like, please
(03:24):
expect like readers. They've been getting more
concerns and I was like OK, theywere expecting readers but I'm
like the level of aggression they showed.
So if like Jake Sully and Nathiri were not with them, they
would have been like massacred. How did the fear make get to the
reef in the 1st place like that?How did the initial journey
happen if the return journey? Sort of?
Yeah, and it's sort of that, butlove Jake and who have beaten
(03:46):
the Sky people like twice before.
Yeah. And they're like.
Wing for that they're just like the scar like nothing.
The entire like feet comes down.I'm like how are these guys
trading anything? It's a total loss.
Which then begs the obvious question, like, where were these
guys earlier? Yeah, yeah, I.
Feel like an invention, right? It's almost like he's making up
the story as he goes along and you're like, Oh no, that's
actually what he's doing. Which is like the Harry Potter
(04:09):
thing, right, With the book 5 May or like this existed the
whole time. Why didn't you just come up with
it? And you're like, yeah, yeah, she
just came up with it anyway, So whatever.
That's that again, like movie logic, whatever, move around,
like forget it. What is even Wilder is when he's
like, I will kill you. That was like 8 second.
(04:32):
Like Spider is that important? So the whole trope of like
Logan, Children of Men, Last of Us, the child has something like
some superpower that can be harnessed.
Yeah, either for like the old oreither for bad, but like, yeah,
to the but the protagonist is like, I don't care what happens
to the world, I will save this person.
(04:54):
Yeah. And that is what you to them,
right. The stories you just mentioned,
all of them, you're like, Oh my God.
Like insane choice but I love this guy.
I thought he was doing. This guy is like seeing the
bigger picture. He's like, no, wait, our planet
is more important so one kid candie.
But I'm like, I don't actually care because I don't care about
(05:15):
Pandora. I care about Spider because I
see him all day. Yeah.
And so like store out of left field that till the very end
when he's like, so Neti is like saying whatever and you buy that
because she's always been a little suspicious of.
Just like I get that from her because she has no like human
connection directly, right? Like and she.
(05:35):
Says in like direct words, like I've lost everything, right,
because of these people. So I can understand that you
project that hate onto whoever looks like the people.
Exactly. That is, you know, and the movie
addresses that the movie The Jake query, like indirect word
says that, you know, like you can't like get angry, you can't
be hateful, all that all that stuff.
And then he's like, I'll kill. It's so unbelievable that even
(05:59):
after he has pulled spider into the forest to kill him, I have
not believed it. I'm like, they want to pull the
rug from under her feet. Obviously someone do that.
So I mean, it's one of those things, right?
A rapist is not someone who actually commits rape, he's the
person who thinks about committing a rape.
That will be equally insane hair, will be equally evil hair,
(06:19):
and a person who thinks about killing their whatever adopted
child is weird. Is is insane that this is the
protagonist movie? Why did that happen?
I don't know. Yeah.
And why did he, like, think about that for so long?
It's not like he thought about for two seconds and like, Oh my
God, what are they thinking? It's so weird.
And then and then and then she jumps in and she like name
(06:40):
Akmar, but. Before that already had the
change of mind, so her arrival is almost like meaningless.
Yeah, the damage has been done, right.
You're like it's like one of themost epic kind of shoot yourself
in the foot moments like I thinkon a movie The size, right?
Like why would you do this at this?
Stage and I wouldn't mind if that actually was like a trigger
to like essentially have like spider be like, how the hell
(07:00):
could you do that? I am like now leaving your side
or something like that. But it's not like the movie goes
there. No, he just like, oh, OK, never
mind. He literally says it's OK, I
know I must die now and be one with the AOL.
Stop talking in like lower talk as a human being dialogue is
like so poor every 10 minutes that I was like Oh my God, I
(07:22):
want to like I finally find the script right and then like punch
him in the face. I'm like, can you please go back
and like redo it again? Yeah, I was like quite strong
whiff of George Lucas on this one.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. George Lucas Some like episode
1-2 and three. Yeah, the prequels, yeah.
So I had like the opposite reaction.
Like I was also like quite annoyed by the dialogue and I
(07:45):
was quite like pointedly noticing, K I thought James
Cameron does not know jokes. We thought Christopher Nolan was
bad at humor, but like, he's actually better than James
Cameron because there was so many moments where you're like,
somebody needs to call out what's happening on screen so
that they can wink at us or tellus that they're on the same
(08:06):
page. Because in the end, so much
that, like, you remember the scene where, like, Jake, Jake is
like, in some cage in front of like, a viewing public, and then
four independent missions are staged to break him out.
Yeah. All four, none of them have
contacted each other and it's just four happening
simultaneously. Spider has escaped from the lab
(08:27):
and he's just hanging out in public in front of everyone.
Yeah, yeah, barely these guys. And then and these guys like
what? Nothing.
There's not these guys. Yeah, Netidi is coming.
And then the random person out of nowhere, they're Yeah, I
love. This entrance like they are at
this point they do not give any care of like how this stage are
breaking right, because it's like these guys are allowed in.
(08:50):
So that's crazy that you know, quality should just bring in his
new ash people buddies and they come into the base of humans and
they're like yeah, you just keephold on to your weapons and I'm
like what no, that would never happen.
They will be asked to surrender all of the weapons.
So that's crazy one. Secondly, they're allowed to go
in and come out whenever they want.
So some of them go out again because that's how Nathir is
(09:10):
able to like capture one of themand get the badge that she needs
all important badge and she justcasually then strolls into the
base. I'm like, are we in the 1970s
James One territory now? Isn't the stupidest thing is
like the So I get it when they do it once, but when they do it
three times when Jake and Koragekind of team up, yeah.
Yeah, but then like before that there is again, like Nathan is
(09:31):
the way that she comes in. So they also live the same way.
Like literally everyone's after them.
There's like a giant helicopter like after like Spider and Jake
and Nathan then comes in, takes out the helicopter and she just
disappears on the base. And then next shot they jump cut
to like morning. And I'm like, but how did they
escape the base? That's the all important thing
here. Walt Disney Nebola police card
though, Sir. It's one of those things, right?
(10:00):
Like it's like Marines honor briefly.
We will not kill each other. Yeah, I was like 8 second.
You guys were literally trying to kill each other.
Like I would not be that honorable.
Like if I haven't like 4 times in this movie, 20 seconds after
they were trying to kill each other.
Yeah, yeah. I don't buy it.
See, I don't buy it at all. If you do it once and they have
(10:21):
to be teammates for the entire movie, they can't just keep
going back and forth. Yeah, you know, And it's like
one of those obvious, like writing choices.
Like I'm like each second to Agar usne beside Karthi, I'm
briefly up in a truce called Karina.
Then you can't go back on it. Right.
The more interesting thing is for them to kind of team up and
then him having. Yeah, like.
Show the moral like quandary of like quarters being like
(10:41):
actually like this is insane. I care about spider more about
than like the entire like human position.
Like it's all and that's, but they're not really pushing into
that. Like everyone keeps reverting
back to that programming of like, Oh no, but I am in this in
this alliance. Screw your alliance.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Similarly, like would have been
more interesting like the the four independent rescue machines
(11:03):
that I was talking about, it would have been more interesting
for them to kind of by chance collide and all four of them to
be like each second year also inthe same thing.
That was so much that in city first you'll be funny, then you
will get to see your team up sequence of like them
coordinating and doing this properly because it is actually
an insane thing that that you need like to get him out of this
(11:24):
thing that he's surrounded by everyone like that would need a
coordinate effort. So there will be great on that
level and then you will get likeextended sequence of like a
prison break thing. But no, let's just like, make it
happen. Also on like a thematic level,
right? Because he is like some sort of
spiritual leaders at the APL andfor him to inspire multiple
characters to rescue him from. All sides.
(11:46):
Like the guy does it like Jimin Clemont does it.
Basically, he's a plot device because he he's not important in
the movie before that scene and he's not imprisoned in the movie
after that scene. So I'm like your entire point in
the movie from three hour to 20 of the movie for like 5 minutes
is to ride 1 bulldozer and get him out.
Yeah, and he's like 4. 100. Yeah, yeah, that's like 6 hours
(12:07):
a movie. He exists only for this.
It's crazy strange because like the Michelle Rodriguez character
did similar stuff in the first movie, but she she was she was a
presence throughout the movie. She just show up at the end,
right, Which is, I mean, the same person made both movies.
I don't understand. Yeah, I don't understand.
That's what, how can you, the same guy, actually shot these
(12:28):
movies like back-to-back so thatthe kid actors wouldn't age too
much, right. So this movie has been in the
can for like some four years I think.
By the way, like in the same movie, a 70 year old is playing
a 13 year old, so it doesn't matter.
Which has been normally been like, canonically justified,
right? So like, you can't fight that
anymore. But yeah, the problem is how can
(12:49):
he, this guy who made like the same movie just like cut into
two parts because it was too long?
Like this first half is so greatand the second-half is like.
I don't know. I think there's also like
someone needs to come in and be like, Sir, I understand, but I.
Don't think he allows that, right?
I think like games Cameron is like in his own island making
these movies. No one is from Disney ever
(13:12):
visits him unless they are like Sir Call Final Cut are like OK
he can we screen it? Yeah, yeah, I mean famously
egotistic. It's like that level of control
now, like it's like pre production, production
everything. He has final cuts to say on.
Yeah, but you know, like you canyou watching this movie, you can
tell like there's too much like there's too many threads that
you can't resolve that is factory like there's the Curry
(13:33):
thing that comes out of nowhere like she's feeling.
Like we get intermission in India.
So like the scene that happens with at Varang's base when he
the quarter which visits them tolike get them on their side and
then she does the whole like drug scene inside the tent.
I was like, that scene needs to come 60 minutes before.
That's the only the only interesting bit of the movie is
(13:53):
the weird horny stuff that they get up to.
Yeah, that scene needs to happenlike in the 1st 20 minutes
because you need to establish how this character is going to
be the new villain. And you're doing this way too
late and I don't care why. Like you suddenly have this like
essentially new like faction that is going to play like
issues and everything. Like there's a seem like another
like tool in quadratches like thing and not expensive.
(14:15):
Like that's what I loved about the 1st to 2nd movie is that you
introduce me to a new part of the planet.
You jump like so much that time that you could expand and
introduce entire new family. There was enough to like, you
know, latch onto the OK, I'm learning new things on the
person side, new things on the planet side, new things on like
the human side. And this is feels like, Oh, we
just took one more step out of the house and I'm like, I just
saw this three years ago. Also like after the 1st 30
(14:39):
minutes or whatever the emotional toll of having lost a
son isn't felt like I feel that should be hanging over that.
Should be the drive through of the entire movie.
Yeah, as opposed to sometimes, you know, taking up arms is OK,
which I feel is the ultimate message that the movie kind of
lands on, which is also like, weird in its own way.
(15:01):
Like it goes again that. Convinced way too soon.
I think eventually the tool coneto like just become like violent
now like the entire time they'relike, no, no, we won't do
anything but. It's not just the tool cone,
right? It's also the Navi.
We forgetting that? Yeah, when we were introduced to
these people, he was saying sorry.
Like literally saying sorry to like a John War for hurting the
(15:23):
John War. It was why they also refused to
touch like metal weapons becausethey're like, no, this is like
way too like easy. Like this is how you end up with
like mass killings. Sure.
It goes, again, like every character, it kind of goes
against what they are fundamentally or what they were
fundamentally introduced. This is not just character
development, you know, it just goes against who they are.
(15:43):
Like it's not a bad person turning worse or a good person
becoming which. Is why I think eventually what
happens is like this is you can tell this is an American at some
level making this movie because he's just bringing his mindset
and like forgetting the people or the culture he created.
Which is ironic because he wantsto the 1st 2 movies are all
about highlighting how that is more important than what we
think is important. Like western culture feels the
(16:07):
dominant culture. But it might not be because and
and the movie was very critical of Like America about American
foreign policy. Yeah, like the first movie is
literally the Iraq war. Yeah, and the second movie is
fully so even I would argue thismovie come first ish is very
critical of like it's critical of the oppressor, right?
It's critical of the invader andAmerica is the invader in
(16:31):
virtually every global conflict.So it is very self aware in that
sense. But then when you turn the
oppressed into versions of the oppressor, then you're kind of
going against the very nature ofthe story that you're telling,
right? Because who's to know that
tomorrow, Jake, Sully, whatever team of Navi won't fight the
(16:53):
fire people and make them? Honestly it's so annoying also
because their motivation isn't really established.
Like why is Varang doing it off beyond the point of Oshi wants
like power on some level she's. Been angry at Ava for not.
I don't know, yeah. So you should see she's taking
out their anger on, like, other people of, like, of her kind.
(17:14):
Yeah. So it's like she started civil
war on some level. But I don't feel like, like,
motivation enough. It just feels like you've handed
the humans like more Alice. Yeah, I mean, Kiri is also angry
at Ava, right? But then Kiri, I don't know if
the movie is trying to do this deliberately.
Like both of them are kind of questioning their faith, but
then one kind of understand on adeeper level and the other one
(17:35):
has kind of renounced it and they are evil for doing that.
I don't know. Because then there are I don't
know where Varang goes at the end.
Like that's a big hole in my mind.
Like I don't know what happens to her and she doesn't die.
She's like they're trying to like.
Appear Yeah, yeah. From the movie like.
Conveniently keeping her alive for like the next two parts if
they want to bring her back. I don't know what happens to
Paya Khan. Maybe he's dead, maybe he's not.
(17:57):
I don't know. Yeah.
I also love how like the Paya Khan collect the elder all those
elders show up to like start thekick off the fight and because
then they warned the ash people to take over in the fight and
change the narrative the big dudes just like disappear mid
fight. And somebody says it right?
Yeah. I'm like, but there was just
here toppling ships, where are they now?
(18:18):
Yeah, it's very confusing. And in the LA towards the end,
it knows all the fighting or other things or other.
There was so much like stuff on screen where I'm wondering if
like, so people complain that the Russo brothers can't frame a
shot, but Cameron was always supposed to be the guy who knows
how to design an action seek. Which is literally what he
(18:39):
praised him for like 3 years agoand never do.
He's like Oh my God, we like youcould tell the choreography and
like I knew what the setting waslike you know, this was the
fighting, this laid out the stage of like oh this is where
the everything was. This is the objective.
I think the second we is very like even though it's expensive,
it's knows it has like a straight line through that This
is what one side is trying to achieve.
This is what the other side is trying to achieve and we can go
(19:02):
towards those goals. Yahape, the motivations are so
weird and they keep changing. As we've talked about with
Korich and like Jake, every 10 minutes is that you just like in
your mind, you're confused like in the scene, what are what is
ex party trying to achieve? I have no idea anymore.
Yeah. Yeah, it's also like Jake is
supposed to be the protector, right?
The silent story protector. But then he gets so nervous
(19:25):
about letting LOAC do anything like take responsibility in the
first half of the movie. Like he's letting me do ya bad.
You won't move. You're not.
Ready. Yeah, at the same time, he will
complain when he doesn't wear his like calms and be like, why
were you not in the air and I called you.
So like it's always very confusing where he doesn't want
him to pass him and doesn't wanthim to participate.
(19:46):
No verse right, because in the second-half he's like, oh, so
you want to go and like go on a dangerous mission in the ocean
to find Paya Khan good luck. Bye bye.
Why is he not worried sick the whole time?
He's he's. Is an actual peril law is, you
know, like we see that see sequence where he's like almost
(20:07):
drowning and stuff, almost dead.Yeah.
But they don't cut back to like,what, Jake Soli kind of being
worried out of his mind. Oh, my God, my other son is
gone. You know, even though that's
what he's supposed to be most concerned about, like protecting
family. How are you allowing your son to
go on like? This years after like the second
(20:28):
movie. This is like probably few weeks
or months after. It was insane.
Like it doesn't make sense for Jake to be like hard tikka tuja.
It doesn't make sense for Nateeri to be like hardikka tuja
side quest Kirkya. It doesn't make sense only it
makes sense only when you when you're like oh so of course the
whales need to be someone and this guy needs to be the one who
does the summoning so that the father learns to respect him.
(20:52):
And that's the only reason why this entire 2 hour thing is
happening. We so.
Lost I'm so I was so confused bythe end because they kept
cutting two people just so that they could like declare what
they were doing. Actually.
They're like I'm those second tothe kids and they're going to
declare ABI hum yekar nawali andthey record back to those
(21:12):
people. Then Korich is fighting again.
Then Korich dies for no reason. I don't know if he's dead or
because we don't see him dead. No RSC seen him.
Like this is the whole like Marvel has this problem as well
now even advertise the problem like you.
You want the gravitas of killinga character and audience to feel
that, but then you also like want to cheat that and then
bring them potentially back if you want later.
(21:34):
So now he's walking back right? He's saying that he doesn't want
to do more right. Which is like he, I think he
always had to like undersell these things.
And the moment the movie toucheslike one 1.5 billion, then he'll
be like, oh great, look at what I what I delivered.
I'm the greatest, I think of theworld.
Yeah, this is a guy who, like, won his Oscar.
He literally declared that on the Oscar stage.
So like what? Do you expect from her that's
(21:55):
true? He does that.
I don't know what he means at this time, Yeah.
But I just at the same point, like you were discussing, you
know, like I'm talking about howhe's like betraying the whole
Navi thing is set up. And I feel like he's also like
giving up things that he himselfhad like put in early on in
terms of even like mainstream appeal.
So this movie, the first movie, the Navi exclusively talking
their language, right? So Jigsaw is the outsider.
(22:17):
He has to like learn the language and notice the culture
of the language still. And the movie has lots of titles
and all of that. In this one, he just gives that
up. Everyone's talking English.
No, but in the second movie theykind of explain in a very, I
thought efficient way, right where they where Jake, Sally
basically says that, listen, everybody's talking in their
native language, but I understand it now.
(22:39):
So because I understand it, the audience understands it.
But one of Jake said he's not inthe scene.
I mean, you're right, but it's like this.
They do have Qantas talking to your life Varang and I'm like
why is this scene in English at this point?
But then when when Qantas and Varang reached like the base and
they're actually talking in 2 languages because you can tell
because when college talks to the general, Varang can't
(23:00):
understand that. But I'm like they're both
talking in English but OK. One English and the other
English. Yeah, yeah.
And then Jake and Korich also talk in English and then they
switch to Navi. Let's see, this is the ideas of
so I don't even go there. Yeah, But I think this is
basically like a a little symptom of like how little like
(23:23):
the West or Americans like, wantto read subtitles.
So eventually every film maker will give up things like this.
They're built in their world just to appeal to like the
masses. Hey, at least the veil had
subtitles. Only when they choose to and
then sometimes they have. But I know sometimes like the
leader of the reef will translate.
I don't like why you're talking.I can just get subtitles right
now. Everybody, and I don't know,
(23:46):
like only is like the leader, the only person who would
understand the whales. I have no idea.
Like sometimes they'll do like hand signals for some of the
whales. Some of the whales, they don't
need hang signals. And I'm like confused.
I'm like, some of them are like deaths.
I'm not there. No, if we are going to go down
this road, the whales also have like clothes.
That was insane to me. The whales have like chains and
chains, but they have like banners.
(24:08):
And I'm like, how does this work?
When you're underwater? You don't get strangled by your
own banner. And who made it?
There's a question you do not want to ask because the movie
examples. So we don't go there, don't want
to ask these good. It's chains like chains as in
like the Sky people sort of the.Chains are like the chains of
(24:30):
like, you know, power. They have self constructed the
chains to show it's like standing.
They don't have a possible thumbs, but they have their
jewelry. I don't know how that works.
It's one of those things where James Cameron was there.
You won't ask these questions. You just roll with it.
Yeah. But then because the movie
doesn't work for us and now we're.
Yeah, yeah, I'm. Sure, doing all of this.
Yeah, I'm sure this stuff was there in the 2nd and the first
(24:51):
one also where nobody cared about it, but this one you're
like 8 second. Where does this franchise go
from there? Like also what I love is that
these some at least the first two, we don't know about this
one, but the first two movies are like the top 2 grossing
movies in the top whatever threeor five all time, right?
Like cinema history, all of that.
So they're popular movies, but somehow they are like culturally
(25:14):
irrelevant. Like no one will come up to you
and talk about Avatar ever. That's weird, right?
Nobody does that. But then everybody seems to
watch these movies like there are full like uncle aunties
coming to watch these movies like it's.
Right. I think how is a kind of
franchise be so popular at one level and then also be so
unpopular at the same time? So Cameron had a very.
(25:34):
It made sense. The answer to that is that there
is no additional media to support the friend.
It's just the movies. So but.
That doesn't happen with like stuff like, I don't know, like
New Orleans Dark Knight, but like you will, someone will
bring it up like at least once ayear.
Yeah, but then you Batman is like a constant presence, right?
Whereas this is only this existsonly in the movies and nothing
(25:57):
else. So you have nothing else to kind
of drive that conversation. Sure, but I.
Got to show us like it's also like not distinct enough like
the movie start. Like now I know because I just
saw three, spent three hours with them.
And then when the movie starts, all I remember is Jake and
Netri's names. I could not remember any of the
kids, what they what they were called until then.
I remembered what said out loud.I'm like, OK, Lola, OK.
I had no idea. So that's smartly What he does
(26:18):
is like, initially for the firsthour, he has everybody repeat
names loudly over and over. Yeah.
Because, you know, like no one'sgonna remember.
Yeah. Even though I remembered Like
Spider, I remembered Piya Khan. I remembered Nitam, the kid who
dies. No, do not remember.
All I remember was like Jake andNiteri and everything.
When I started talking I was like OK, I had a faint memory of
(26:40):
like this but I if you had askedme before the movie was like
what are the kids called? Like pop quiz, I could not have
not done it. Possible, yeah.
Which is why he, I suppose, has everybody, like, call people by
their names over and over again.Yeah.
At least three years or whatever.
Like I said do the the movie andyou ask me like what is the Ash
person called? Like leader called I would not
be able to tell it. Like you could give me 5 guesses
(27:00):
and I will not be able to get it.
I forgot AB when we were making notes.
I forgot the name. AB I remember, like I think I'll
remember like maybe until like afew weeks if you keep asking me
that now, because I have told myself now I can't just
remember. But if you just ask me randomly
out of the blue and out of four drops, I'd be like, no idea.
Yeah, I mean, it's one of those things I it feels very like up
in the. Air, but it doesn't happen when
(27:20):
I say like there's not been a new Mandarin season for like
ages. But I know the guys called grow.
Yeah, I don't know. That's one of those weird
conversations where you're like,yeah, we'll check back in when
you're ready. Yeah.
But like otherwise, you have no staying power.
I don't know, like, honestly, for maybe like it's very
difficult to predict how things are going to be, but like it is
(27:41):
a very like nobody has done this.
Like there are things that I sawin these 3 movies that I've
never seen before, right? And, and the leaps and bounds,
like even between movies, like the quality of the water.
Yeah, yeah, is. Especially the 1st and 2nd
movie. The leap is insane.
The leap is insane. This one and the second one feel
feel a little like similar. Yeah, but like the Varun
(28:03):
character, there were scenes in which we had like close-ups of
her and I could have sworn that it was just make up.
Like you can't tell it's digital.
Yeah, like, you know, all the VFX stuff with like the motion
capture stuff is now so good that I think it took me like 2
hours and I was like, wait, they're not actually blue
people. Like this is data computer.
Yeah. Like everything is in the
(28:24):
computers, right? Nothing is real.
And like that person, you could see that the pose on their skin
and that stuff wasn't. And maybe it was just the IMAX
that I was watching. It was very good, but I don't
know if it was there in the first one.
Definitely. Like yeah, first one I think was
like definitely outdated from like now, but like a second like
the huge jump with like all the waters that you mentioned now
the skin stuff is so real. You forget that this is not
(28:46):
actually human being being shot.Yeah, the skin is really good in
this and skin and water. I think it really.
Leaps and that like helps you sell it so much that you forget
you actually feel like you are our on Pandora.
Which is, yeah, when it's good, it's good, right?
These movies like that. A version is top notch it just
he needs to allow some external like writing like let's just pay
Someone Like You know you have no endless you know people who
(29:10):
are like good writer like give it to like Craig Mason or
something the 4th one like let him write some huh?
Just. Get like an army of like
rewrites. Which I think he has.
He had like a writer's room and all.
He's set up for the scene. Yeah, but not like enough to
like take the top credit was like he's involved in top
credit. He's also credited for editing
(29:31):
this time. Amazing.
He's like a vanga. Yeah, yeah, this point like it's
a full too much control. But yeah, I don't know, It feels
like the ending of this movie felt very abrupt to me.
I don't know where. Yeah.
I can't figure out like where it'll go.
Like it's almost like it's like a soft reset at this point and
he needs another like jump 10 years because anyway he'll end
up dropping 10 years because everyone will have grown older
(29:51):
by time he shoots the next one. I.
Suppose like Spider is supposed to be the next hero hero.
But you need somebody to like bridge the gap between the two
races. And I say Jake Sally was
anointed in the first one. So that's what I but I really
doubt that there'll be more though of these movies.
(30:12):
I think that's like one thing I don't put put past Cameron that
because he just has that weight in the industry.
Like even if this movie was not,I do 2 billion there when he can
get under made. It all depends on whether he
wants to make. And if he stays alive?
That too. And the only thing is because he
will have to make like, it's notlike if he walks away, he won't
allow someone else to make this.Yeah, this young child lives and
dies with him. Yeah.
(30:35):
I mean, Terminator, we've seen what what happened to that one.
They have a Terminator referencein this one though, quite
obviously. But yeah.
He has allowed other people to do that and that Francis has
gone to the dogs, yeah. And he's famously fought with
them also, though I don't know. I don't really.
Yeah. We'll, we'll think about it a
decade later. I guess we as we'll go back to
(30:57):
regularly scheduled program which is never thinking about
these movies. Exactly.
And then we like, what was the third kid in the row called?
Tuk. Tuk, who has like a different
name. I realized Tuk is not her.
Yeah, Tuk. It seems like the shorter the
full name is, the grand mom pronounces and like, oh OK, you
know it's going to go. Or to confuse career.
(31:20):
Yeah, you know, by Avatar fight.Oh my.
God, and Kitty will be like living on some like Luke
Skywalker or something. Yeah, I mean, see, to your
point, like this movie doesn't have like that strong cultural
kind of fandom is that if this was Star Wars, then the
(31:40):
supposedly the fans of this franchise would be a ghost.
Like they would be up in arms over what he does Jake Sully
does in this movie more than what they were over Luke
Skywalker. And like there's.
No one who's obsessed enough to like make those conversations
happen. Which is why this movie just
disappears from like cultural and like a few months after.
(32:01):
At least no one feel as stronglyto be like, eh, what about that?
Yeah, that's quite like disheartened, especially when
it's like really long also. I mean, I think even the second
one was long, but then I didn't mind it because it was
enjoyable, which this one was not on the serial level anyway.
Yes, Yep, Yep. That's all for this episode of
(32:22):
The Long Take. You can follow us on Facebook,
YouTube, Instagram and Threads at the Long Take Board.
You can write to us at the Long Take board@gmail.com.
Please use the rating and reviewwhere every episode and we will
see next week. Thanks for listening.
Bye.
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