September 30, 2024 • 20 mins
Kottukkaali, writer-director P.S. Vinothraj’s follow-up to the acclaimed Koozhangal, divided us down the middle.
We speak about the techniques Vinothraj uses to tell an ever-evolving, odyssey-like story about a group of people accompanying a young woman to her exorcism.
We discuss the brief bursts of horror and comedy and talk about the larger points that Vinothraj is trying to make about a deeply rotten society.
We also debate the film’s ambiguous ending and wonder why the filmmaker wants to put us in the shoes of a monstrous male character.
—
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:16):
Hi I'm. And I'm Rohan NAO.
Welcome to the long take. This week we're discussing the
Tamil movie Kuttu Kali, directedby and written by Bisin Raj and
starring Suri in Anaban in the lead.
Yeah, I am then I think very opposite ends of the spectrum on
this movie 1. So it's going to be fine One.
Yeah. What do you think of?
It yeah, I mean, after so long, but I I, so I thought it's
(00:39):
pretty tremendous, you know, I'mlike more fascinated to know why
you didn't think it was even good, right?
Yeah, I think it's struggled. I think I sort of I gave up on
it because it's like it just didn't like it took forever for
me to like get put into it. Like 40 minutes.
I was just like, give me like 1 scene, give me some scene I'm
going to be invested in because like the dialogue is not doing
(00:59):
it for me. They were just like, you know,
about like rituals and superstition, every thought
line. Like it was all about people,
right? Like you have to be about
people. Like talk about what you're
feeling. Don't talk about to me about
like stuff you're going to do orwhatever.
Like that's boring. Like you're saying the same,
repeat the same thing. You're saying like we're going
to do this as well. And two minutes you're almost
like going on in circle. So that wasn't doing it for me.
The solidarity wasn't doing it for me.
Just like the full deep focus. I wasn't like, I'm not sure why
(01:22):
this approach, like how it's contributing to it because there
are places where like you will accidentally get shallow depth
of field because you put the camera so close to someone says
it's not like you're really intothe deep focus thing.
The sound that I know is just like very like annoying for me
because like the ceiling of like, you know, like the floor
was too high and it was like, you know, the coffin is almost
like I would hear like everything.
(01:44):
And I was like, you start defying.
You're not like trying to like accentuate like, oh, that's not
as important. You just like, yeah, we just put
the mic there and everything wasloud.
And this is how it is. Thomas think that's that's how
it felt like to me. Yeah.
So just kept waiting for a moment where I would, you know,
be like, oh, yeah, this is like I'm invested now.
And I want to know, like, why these people are doing what
they're doing, who they are. And it just it, it just like
didn't happen for the longest. Way, I mean, so almost
(02:06):
everything that you said is stuff that I admired about the
movie, oddly enough. And I think like I don't think
I've seen a better Indian movie this year than this one.
Like I thought the decision to appear kind of rambling in the
first half or maybe longer even was a nice kind of dramatic.
(02:29):
I don't need to that right, because all these people are
moving forward with like a single purpose, right?
They're heading towards One Direction.
Yet nothing that they release speak about indicates what is
actually happening. Like I was focusing more on
just, you know, like there's there's a couple of dudes were
like, where do we get alcohol from?
(02:51):
And that's more important to them than anything that this
convoy is participating. And then there's one person is
like, why are you paying for allthe money?
And then an argument erupts overthat, you know, these petty kind
of differences begin to creep upbetween all these people.
I was more interested in the simple fact that, you know, how
what the hierarchies are of power in this little group.
(03:14):
And over time, that becomes fascinating to see, right?
Because it's not just that the men are in power.
That's pretty obvious. The movie is kind of making a
bigger point, like some men are more powerful than others,
right? And the ones that are submissive
like this, the woman's father, is he a worse person because of
(03:37):
that, You know, for what he's allowing to happen.
Also, I wasn't bothered by, you know, like I for one admired
that Vinod Raj has. He's just made the previous one.
Also, I really liked a lot the movie that he made Pebbles, and
I think that he has such a distinct style those the
vastness of this land, right? Because it's again, it's irony,
(04:01):
right? She's like caged and not only is
she caged, the dudes don't realize it, but they're caged as
well, right? By what how they think their
mindsets are caging them. Yet here is this huge open space
where this movie unfolds similarto Pebbles, where, you know,
this guy was just on this kind of epic mission.
(04:23):
He was just walking and he was the villain that movie, and we
were following him. And here also, he's playing
around with perspective, right? All of that I thought was very
fascinating. And this isn't even what the
movie is about. The movie is about something
entirely different. Which I think is almost
irrelevant to like the central thing.
I don't think the movie like wants to like really care about
like, which is why it weeds out like it sort of like slowly does
(04:47):
drip feeds key like hunt. This is like to like
interactional exchanges that youwill be like, wow, this is what
we're going to do. That's all.
Do you? Remember the interaction with
the, the where the cop stops theconvoy?
And I thought that was so nicelyon because the cop stops the
convoy and he's like, what the hell are you doing?
And they explained to him that we're going to see this, this
(05:08):
this magic person for this girl.And the cop is like, oh, OK, OK,
OK, I'm sorry, please continue. You know, But in the cops mind,
he has just done his read for the day.
I'm, I'm such a brilliant person.
I let these people go. But that's it's, I'm sitting
there. I'm like, oh, why you?
It's it's you're sending her to doom.
Do you realize that? You think that you're helping
(05:29):
her, but all of you people like.Everyone around her, they think
that exactly right, yeah. But some people are just, I
don't know, some of them just seem like they're being cruel
also like they know this is nonsense.
But like HA Karnet or Karnet, whatever, we don't.
Think almost like forget, No, I don't think it's all know
better. It's almost like they've given
themselves up to society, like they don't want to even question
(05:52):
because those two spoke about the alcohol ones are probably
the only ones who on screen get a moment to like quote UN quote
question it when they actually find their alcohol.
But it's almost like tangential,right?
They're like yeah, yeah, like sure, like ito but so to keep
pregnant or E like is a. Word Also the main character is
fascinating where she doesn't speak right and and there is a
(06:13):
sense that you're entering the story.
This is the climax of the story.Basically, this is the third act
of her story. Like this is grand story, tragic
love story, but what we are watching is the ending, right?
Which is why, like, the whole time I was suspecting that they
might have even killed the dude,who knows, you know, at least
from the expression on her face,which is, you know, of 90%
(06:36):
defeat and just I'm, I've resigned to my fate.
But there is, you know, obviously there are like brief
moments of where she wants to either escape or she's having
sort of a premonition of like, yeah, this is where where I want
to go. But then the larger sense is
I've given up like, which is howwe are so introduced into her.
Yeah, that's a clear like, you know, sort of like indication
(06:57):
from that every every minute she's on screen, you can tell
like that's where she is sort ofis.
Because even though the thing you're hinting at, you know,
when she has that kind of out ofbody experience and she like
thinks of herself with her open head, I would think like that's
not even like a wish or a desire.
I think it's almost like, oh, inanother life, I could be that
person. In another life, I could be that
person or that's just what I imagine death to be.
(07:20):
You know, I'm like literally hoping for like the sweet
release of death or. Yeah, because that then this
point that would be better than like living this.
Than this, because there is alsothe throwaway line of, you know,
this isn't the worst thing that they've done to me or something
along those lines. Do you remember?
Which is just like scary like what?
Like because we've already seen them beating her.
(07:41):
So like what else have they done?
Is she referring to, you know, they killed the dude or is she
referring to something that happened to her?
So all of that is there, but that's all like left your
imagination. A lot of this movie is kind of
left your imagination, includingthe ending, which I have no idea
what that meant, which is probably the only bit of the
movie where I don't want to reduce it to.
(08:02):
The director is putting himself in the position of Pandy and us
also. Yeah, I was.
Not a fan of that either. Like that move at all.
Like I mean, there are actually other shots as well where the
movies, which is to get a POV and some of them I can
understand, like the anger and some of them are just like
random sometimes for me. But the the final one, because
the character like is the character in a way.
(08:23):
Like sure, Anaman is like largely new, but like even sorry
is it is he is comparatively like he's not that like given
that much to do, right, So that so his set of peaks in terms of
you say emotion are when we meethim when like his sister is like
applying that whatever white thing on his neck and then he
like starts shouting at her and beating her up almost.
That was his introduction, right.
(08:43):
So then you're like, oh, this guy's like a hole.
I don't really want to care for this guy and then his other big
peek emotional is when what we spoke about like, you know, like
he'd beating everyone up and just after like that song
incident. So when you like put me in the
POV of a character, I basically like hate.
I'm just like, I don't want to be in this space and I was like
(09:05):
a revolter and don't Get Me Out here trying for me to like to
potentially like either humanized slash like sympathize
with this guy, like he just witnessed something and now he's
shaken and I'm like this the last guy I want to feel anything
for. So I found this.
Choice. No, no.
So I think it's the opposite, right?
Because though it's not like this is Maharaj, where the movie
(09:25):
has no idea that the main guy is, you know, the movie is fully
aware that this person is insane.
You know, God knows what all atrocities he has done and what
he can do by doing that. POVI would like to give the
movie The benefit of doubt because it's a much better
movie. It's it's more skillfully made
(09:45):
than, you know, 99% of the othernonsense that I watch.
I would like to give it the benefit of doubt.
To imagine that he's not saying that this person has suddenly
had a change of heart, but he isimplying that you and I, the
viewers and himself, the director, are also under say
sexist. All of us are right.
And the sooner that we kind of introspect that we make those
(10:08):
kind of at least acknowledgmentsabout what are our biases, you
know, how how many of these incidents have we kind of looked
at and either ignored or whatever participated in?
So I think that is the crucial difference because for the
simple fact that, you know, the movie isn't confused about who
Pandy is, right? He is an insane person.
(10:28):
He is the one who should be. Whatever demon is inside him
needs to be exercised. Yeah.
But I think it's also like though there is a hesitancy now
you said like he does not is notintrospection of the but like
movie at the end, like whatever,like 1015 seconds of it while
everyone standing next to the sea and it is sort of like
trying to implant that he is questioning.
(10:50):
He is. He has, yeah, yeah, he is kind
of wondering what's happening. But that also happens in the
last five seconds and immediately after it is
revealed. And this is another like huge
point that the movie is trying to make.
It's not like a socio economic thing, right?
There's like it's almost like horror movie at the end when you
see like just so many women who've been brought to this
(11:11):
person, right? It's it's any like horror
filmmaker could take that and run with it this idea and it is
very scary. So I mean, that is the note that
the movie wants you to kind of also register in your mind.
Like, Oh my God, like what dystopia?
Yeah. So for like feel like that could
be conveyed better in a way almost like to as you know, as
you said, like the movie is leading so much into
(11:32):
imagination. I think that's something people
can just like draw from watching, right?
Because you're like, if you're watching this, it's obviously
like not an isolated incident. This is what how people are.
Also, the magic person is very plainly revealed to be like a
scam artist. It's not even, it's not that
he's putting on a show even, which a lot of these people I
imagine would do to kind of keepup that illusion.
(11:53):
But this person is so obviously a scam artist.
You know, it's not even like youidiots.
Like he's not even doing a good job at fooling you and yet
you're. That's what the movie actually
was. It's probably like the best part
for me is like, you know, when it does the like comedy in plain
sight thing that I was just likepointing out like the Idiocracy
of like what deep people are doing through.
I just like feel like the direction doesn't as good a job
(12:16):
of like, you know, potentially like making those moments stand
out or emphasizing. No, but I remember each and
every one of those moments. I watched this movie a while ago
and, and all those comedy bits that you're referring to, I
remember like I remember the the, the look on all these dudes
faces when she refuses to get out of the auto and they have to
like lift it up and turn it around.
You know, it's exaggerated to a degree of like what is
(12:39):
happening. The, the, the bull scene is
memorable. The.
Only woman was like actually gotit right because they're all
like shouting at the top and you're like that kind of like
like ground to like to do the same work, but all the others
like the bull 1 you just mentioned.
That's almost like playing like a documentary.
Just everyone stands there and then the a tiny girl shows up
and then drags her friend out ofthe three.
(12:59):
No, but it's funny, right? Because it's a bull.
Yeah, that's funny. Yeah.
And that. Grown, grown men who were like,
you know, are beating up women. A sudden, like, Cowling in front
of the bull. And then this tiny girl shows up
and she's like, OK. Yeah, and, and, and the insect
in the eye was hilarious. I mean this idiot.
That's probably like a body horror moment then.
I laughed when she licked. There was like this exaggerated
(13:21):
close up. It's of this eye.
Yeah, exact close up, because you've not used that sort of
mechanic anywhere else, or it never repeats that motif.
And her tongue just feels like it's a frog's tongue, I think.
All these all these things but were very funny.
I was like. Yeah, but that feels like almost
like a, you know, outtake from aDavid.
(13:42):
Yeah. I mean, see this is one of those
movies where there's so much that it kind of it's not feeding
you a lot of information, it's allowing you to kind of
interpret and reinterpret. So it's always more fascinating
to watch stuff like this, right,Because two people can watch the
same thing and have a different reactions like we have.
Yeah, I think. The issue is that it's just like
I understand why you would want to make something deliberately
(14:05):
almost like documented, but it'sso unengaging for like like a
long period of it, especially it's you know, like the the
initial half, like whatever the 1st, it's not like the end.
We are the 10 like the first 40 minutes that defines how you
will engage with the movie goingforward.
It's only like 18 minutes. So if I'm not engaged with like
half of it, anything you do after that, even the stuff you
I'm not talking about. And I do like CD the Minas out
(14:29):
of body thing imagination or I think the pandy meeting everyone
was for the moment I actually sat up.
Otherwise I was literally, I think the points I was gonna
start looking at the wall in my bed sheet.
But I don't know. So I thought that so I was into
it from the 1st scene, right? Which is this elaborate kind of
tracking shot of this woman at dawn, right?
(14:49):
It's very haunting. It sets up a very different kind
of film, right? Because she's.
Yeah, but then what follows it doesn't follow that, right?
I feel like it's like that kind of like visual language is
abandoned after first shot. No, but I thought so that's it's
it's very reminiscent of Pebblesalso, right, Because he does a
lot of tracking shots and Pebbles and and I oh, OK, fine.
So I mean, great. Like I know this, you're good at
(15:11):
this and, and immediately suckedin this world, right, because of
just how not only because of just the time of day that you've
chosen, because it's very haunting kind of early dawn
light. And there is like this disease,
you know, St. lamps, which kind of add this kind of
artificiality to all of this also.
But then just the act of this woman is stricken, right?
(15:32):
She there's this something is happening, it's going to happen.
And she kind of drenches herself.
And then and then it ends on thereveal of this, this the main
woman, Mina and all that was fascinating because not a word
is spoken. But then you have this kind of
journey and then and then the movie kind of keeps evolving and
and in terms of just the form that you're Speaking of, that it
(15:52):
became monotonous. I thought it was doing so many
interesting things, right? Not only is it doing this rugged
kind of Western approach almost,but then there is like these
moments of abstract, either horror or comedy or just
weirdness. You know, he is kind of
experimenting with all of that. And I thought it was like really
ambitious and he had a technicallevel.
(16:12):
They had like in terms of teams also.
It's kind of out there. It's pretty, it's pretty angry.
So angry, I mean. Teams, I think actually I feel
more than that feel like with the technical level and I
actually don't like I wasn't into it.
I mentioned like Western stuff, you know, like when it's like, I
mean, things are like very sparse and thread when it is you
have to go down to the technicallevel to set up feature.
And The thing is, it's not actually, I feel like, you know,
(16:35):
doing it for me on a technical level, like it's as a sort of
coffee. And I was just like, it's
working. But also because there's so much
like filler dialogue about like people wanting to be like just
how they feel about the situation.
This is what they're going to do.
And it's like like, what are youcommunicating?
You might as well shut up and let me like certain piece in
this auto right now I think. There's like the rooster stuff
also. Which then I kept waiting for
(16:56):
that to like become actually like, I feel like a physical gag
funny, but it's just like, it's just there.
It's like, yeah, this is there for like longest way.
It doesn't transform into. Anything there is a funny bit
with when they dress. Yeah, yeah.
It kind of goes unconscious and like everybody stops and kind of
tries to resuscitate it only because they needed to be
sacrificed later as part of the ritual.
(17:18):
Like all that stuff is pretty funny.
And the kid is there with them and he's like, no, I want to
poop, I want to pee, etcetera, etcetera.
Now I really understand like thepurpose of just like, you know,
I feel like the cattle they gavehim like another sort of
reaction later when like after. Yeah, the.
Beaten up totally. And then she like smiled at her
and he spied and just like, where's like, What are you
trying to like? What are you?
(17:41):
I mean, I did think of that moment and there's two things
that could be happening, right? One is, are you going to turn
into a pandy, right? Or the opposite of but.
In that moment is traumatized. I don't think he's turning into
a pandy like. But you understand that all of
these people have kind of witnessed similar.
Yeah, yeah. If you build up in this
(18:01):
environment, like it's almost inevitable that you turn into a
pond or are they, or you turn into like one of those like
alcohol chasing dudes who are like who just go along with
those side pieces. Correct.
So the, the, the, the smile thatis like a little hint of like,
what who's, what are you going to be like?
Are you going to grow up to be someone who does this?
Which I thought was quite profound, you know, moments like
(18:22):
that. And yeah, which is probably why
we like this, yeah. Thing is this is that probably
proof of like how one same film that you saw like show the same
frame, that same heaven thing can like have such a diverse
differential impact on the audience.
No, I would kind of add a littlelayer of noise so that it's an
example of how a well made film,or at least that how I would
(18:44):
define a well made film to be, can evoke a different response
as opposed to say Dhoom 2 right?A lot of people like with whom
too? But.
Yeah, he's not a. Relying movie to.
Like the same response. But in terms of a movie of this
kind, you know, I'm guessing, I don't know.
I don't know, has this been likedivisive?
(19:04):
I'm not sure. I think people liked it.
I haven't read that much honestyso.
But yeah, it played like some Berlin, Berlin I think earlier
this year. Yeah, but it's.
Not, probably not the first timethat I've not liked a movie.
The Square festivals. Yeah, yeah.
The last. Yeah, but yeah, I mean, in a
year we're kind of like officialselections at of Indian movies
(19:28):
is finally happening. So it's a nice kind of the
evolution, I would say. OK, that does it.
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we will see you next week. Thanks for listening.
Hi I'm. And I'm Rohan NAO.
Welcome to the long take. This week we're discussing the
Tamil movie Kuttu Kali, directedby and written by Bisin Raj and
starring Suri in Anaban in the lead.
Yeah, I am then I think very opposite ends of the spectrum on
this movie 1. So it's going to be fine One.
Yeah. What do you think of?
It yeah, I mean, after so long, but I I, so I thought it's
(00:39):
pretty tremendous, you know, I'mlike more fascinated to know why
you didn't think it was even good, right?
Yeah, I think it's struggled. I think I sort of I gave up on
it because it's like it just didn't like it took forever for
me to like get put into it. Like 40 minutes.
I was just like, give me like 1 scene, give me some scene I'm
going to be invested in because like the dialogue is not doing
(00:59):
it for me. They were just like, you know,
about like rituals and superstition, every thought
line. Like it was all about people,
right? Like you have to be about
people. Like talk about what you're
feeling. Don't talk about to me about
like stuff you're going to do orwhatever.
Like that's boring. Like you're saying the same,
repeat the same thing. You're saying like we're going
to do this as well. And two minutes you're almost
like going on in circle. So that wasn't doing it for me.
The solidarity wasn't doing it for me.
Just like the full deep focus. I wasn't like, I'm not sure why
(01:22):
this approach, like how it's contributing to it because there
are places where like you will accidentally get shallow depth
of field because you put the camera so close to someone says
it's not like you're really intothe deep focus thing.
The sound that I know is just like very like annoying for me
because like the ceiling of like, you know, like the floor
was too high and it was like, you know, the coffin is almost
like I would hear like everything.
(01:44):
And I was like, you start defying.
You're not like trying to like accentuate like, oh, that's not
as important. You just like, yeah, we just put
the mic there and everything wasloud.
And this is how it is. Thomas think that's that's how
it felt like to me. Yeah.
So just kept waiting for a moment where I would, you know,
be like, oh, yeah, this is like I'm invested now.
And I want to know, like, why these people are doing what
they're doing, who they are. And it just it, it just like
didn't happen for the longest. Way, I mean, so almost
(02:06):
everything that you said is stuff that I admired about the
movie, oddly enough. And I think like I don't think
I've seen a better Indian movie this year than this one.
Like I thought the decision to appear kind of rambling in the
first half or maybe longer even was a nice kind of dramatic.
(02:29):
I don't need to that right, because all these people are
moving forward with like a single purpose, right?
They're heading towards One Direction.
Yet nothing that they release speak about indicates what is
actually happening. Like I was focusing more on
just, you know, like there's there's a couple of dudes were
like, where do we get alcohol from?
(02:51):
And that's more important to them than anything that this
convoy is participating. And then there's one person is
like, why are you paying for allthe money?
And then an argument erupts overthat, you know, these petty kind
of differences begin to creep upbetween all these people.
I was more interested in the simple fact that, you know, how
what the hierarchies are of power in this little group.
(03:14):
And over time, that becomes fascinating to see, right?
Because it's not just that the men are in power.
That's pretty obvious. The movie is kind of making a
bigger point, like some men are more powerful than others,
right? And the ones that are submissive
like this, the woman's father, is he a worse person because of
(03:37):
that, You know, for what he's allowing to happen.
Also, I wasn't bothered by, you know, like I for one admired
that Vinod Raj has. He's just made the previous one.
Also, I really liked a lot the movie that he made Pebbles, and
I think that he has such a distinct style those the
vastness of this land, right? Because it's again, it's irony,
(04:01):
right? She's like caged and not only is
she caged, the dudes don't realize it, but they're caged as
well, right? By what how they think their
mindsets are caging them. Yet here is this huge open space
where this movie unfolds similarto Pebbles, where, you know,
this guy was just on this kind of epic mission.
(04:23):
He was just walking and he was the villain that movie, and we
were following him. And here also, he's playing
around with perspective, right? All of that I thought was very
fascinating. And this isn't even what the
movie is about. The movie is about something
entirely different. Which I think is almost
irrelevant to like the central thing.
I don't think the movie like wants to like really care about
like, which is why it weeds out like it sort of like slowly does
(04:47):
drip feeds key like hunt. This is like to like
interactional exchanges that youwill be like, wow, this is what
we're going to do. That's all.
Do you? Remember the interaction with
the, the where the cop stops theconvoy?
And I thought that was so nicelyon because the cop stops the
convoy and he's like, what the hell are you doing?
And they explained to him that we're going to see this, this
(05:08):
this magic person for this girl.And the cop is like, oh, OK, OK,
OK, I'm sorry, please continue. You know, But in the cops mind,
he has just done his read for the day.
I'm, I'm such a brilliant person.
I let these people go. But that's it's, I'm sitting
there. I'm like, oh, why you?
It's it's you're sending her to doom.
Do you realize that? You think that you're helping
(05:29):
her, but all of you people like.Everyone around her, they think
that exactly right, yeah. But some people are just, I
don't know, some of them just seem like they're being cruel
also like they know this is nonsense.
But like HA Karnet or Karnet, whatever, we don't.
Think almost like forget, No, I don't think it's all know
better. It's almost like they've given
themselves up to society, like they don't want to even question
(05:52):
because those two spoke about the alcohol ones are probably
the only ones who on screen get a moment to like quote UN quote
question it when they actually find their alcohol.
But it's almost like tangential,right?
They're like yeah, yeah, like sure, like ito but so to keep
pregnant or E like is a. Word Also the main character is
fascinating where she doesn't speak right and and there is a
(06:13):
sense that you're entering the story.
This is the climax of the story.Basically, this is the third act
of her story. Like this is grand story, tragic
love story, but what we are watching is the ending, right?
Which is why, like, the whole time I was suspecting that they
might have even killed the dude,who knows, you know, at least
from the expression on her face,which is, you know, of 90%
(06:36):
defeat and just I'm, I've resigned to my fate.
But there is, you know, obviously there are like brief
moments of where she wants to either escape or she's having
sort of a premonition of like, yeah, this is where where I want
to go. But then the larger sense is
I've given up like, which is howwe are so introduced into her.
Yeah, that's a clear like, you know, sort of like indication
(06:57):
from that every every minute she's on screen, you can tell
like that's where she is sort ofis.
Because even though the thing you're hinting at, you know,
when she has that kind of out ofbody experience and she like
thinks of herself with her open head, I would think like that's
not even like a wish or a desire.
I think it's almost like, oh, inanother life, I could be that
person. In another life, I could be that
person or that's just what I imagine death to be.
(07:20):
You know, I'm like literally hoping for like the sweet
release of death or. Yeah, because that then this
point that would be better than like living this.
Than this, because there is alsothe throwaway line of, you know,
this isn't the worst thing that they've done to me or something
along those lines. Do you remember?
Which is just like scary like what?
Like because we've already seen them beating her.
(07:41):
So like what else have they done?
Is she referring to, you know, they killed the dude or is she
referring to something that happened to her?
So all of that is there, but that's all like left your
imagination. A lot of this movie is kind of
left your imagination, includingthe ending, which I have no idea
what that meant, which is probably the only bit of the
movie where I don't want to reduce it to.
(08:02):
The director is putting himself in the position of Pandy and us
also. Yeah, I was.
Not a fan of that either. Like that move at all.
Like I mean, there are actually other shots as well where the
movies, which is to get a POV and some of them I can
understand, like the anger and some of them are just like
random sometimes for me. But the the final one, because
the character like is the character in a way.
(08:23):
Like sure, Anaman is like largely new, but like even sorry
is it is he is comparatively like he's not that like given
that much to do, right, So that so his set of peaks in terms of
you say emotion are when we meethim when like his sister is like
applying that whatever white thing on his neck and then he
like starts shouting at her and beating her up almost.
That was his introduction, right.
(08:43):
So then you're like, oh, this guy's like a hole.
I don't really want to care for this guy and then his other big
peek emotional is when what we spoke about like, you know, like
he'd beating everyone up and just after like that song
incident. So when you like put me in the
POV of a character, I basically like hate.
I'm just like, I don't want to be in this space and I was like
(09:05):
a revolter and don't Get Me Out here trying for me to like to
potentially like either humanized slash like sympathize
with this guy, like he just witnessed something and now he's
shaken and I'm like this the last guy I want to feel anything
for. So I found this.
Choice. No, no.
So I think it's the opposite, right?
Because though it's not like this is Maharaj, where the movie
(09:25):
has no idea that the main guy is, you know, the movie is fully
aware that this person is insane.
You know, God knows what all atrocities he has done and what
he can do by doing that. POVI would like to give the
movie The benefit of doubt because it's a much better
movie. It's it's more skillfully made
(09:45):
than, you know, 99% of the othernonsense that I watch.
I would like to give it the benefit of doubt.
To imagine that he's not saying that this person has suddenly
had a change of heart, but he isimplying that you and I, the
viewers and himself, the director, are also under say
sexist. All of us are right.
And the sooner that we kind of introspect that we make those
(10:08):
kind of at least acknowledgmentsabout what are our biases, you
know, how how many of these incidents have we kind of looked
at and either ignored or whatever participated in?
So I think that is the crucial difference because for the
simple fact that, you know, the movie isn't confused about who
Pandy is, right? He is an insane person.
(10:28):
He is the one who should be. Whatever demon is inside him
needs to be exercised. Yeah.
But I think it's also like though there is a hesitancy now
you said like he does not is notintrospection of the but like
movie at the end, like whatever,like 1015 seconds of it while
everyone standing next to the sea and it is sort of like
trying to implant that he is questioning.
(10:50):
He is. He has, yeah, yeah, he is kind
of wondering what's happening. But that also happens in the
last five seconds and immediately after it is
revealed. And this is another like huge
point that the movie is trying to make.
It's not like a socio economic thing, right?
There's like it's almost like horror movie at the end when you
see like just so many women who've been brought to this
(11:11):
person, right? It's it's any like horror
filmmaker could take that and run with it this idea and it is
very scary. So I mean, that is the note that
the movie wants you to kind of also register in your mind.
Like, Oh my God, like what dystopia?
Yeah. So for like feel like that could
be conveyed better in a way almost like to as you know, as
you said, like the movie is leading so much into
(11:32):
imagination. I think that's something people
can just like draw from watching, right?
Because you're like, if you're watching this, it's obviously
like not an isolated incident. This is what how people are.
Also, the magic person is very plainly revealed to be like a
scam artist. It's not even, it's not that
he's putting on a show even, which a lot of these people I
imagine would do to kind of keepup that illusion.
(11:53):
But this person is so obviously a scam artist.
You know, it's not even like youidiots.
Like he's not even doing a good job at fooling you and yet
you're. That's what the movie actually
was. It's probably like the best part
for me is like, you know, when it does the like comedy in plain
sight thing that I was just likepointing out like the Idiocracy
of like what deep people are doing through.
I just like feel like the direction doesn't as good a job
(12:16):
of like, you know, potentially like making those moments stand
out or emphasizing. No, but I remember each and
every one of those moments. I watched this movie a while ago
and, and all those comedy bits that you're referring to, I
remember like I remember the the, the look on all these dudes
faces when she refuses to get out of the auto and they have to
like lift it up and turn it around.
You know, it's exaggerated to a degree of like what is
(12:39):
happening. The, the, the bull scene is
memorable. The.
Only woman was like actually gotit right because they're all
like shouting at the top and you're like that kind of like
like ground to like to do the same work, but all the others
like the bull 1 you just mentioned.
That's almost like playing like a documentary.
Just everyone stands there and then the a tiny girl shows up
and then drags her friend out ofthe three.
(12:59):
No, but it's funny, right? Because it's a bull.
Yeah, that's funny. Yeah.
And that. Grown, grown men who were like,
you know, are beating up women. A sudden, like, Cowling in front
of the bull. And then this tiny girl shows up
and she's like, OK. Yeah, and, and, and the insect
in the eye was hilarious. I mean this idiot.
That's probably like a body horror moment then.
I laughed when she licked. There was like this exaggerated
(13:21):
close up. It's of this eye.
Yeah, exact close up, because you've not used that sort of
mechanic anywhere else, or it never repeats that motif.
And her tongue just feels like it's a frog's tongue, I think.
All these all these things but were very funny.
I was like. Yeah, but that feels like almost
like a, you know, outtake from aDavid.
(13:42):
Yeah. I mean, see this is one of those
movies where there's so much that it kind of it's not feeding
you a lot of information, it's allowing you to kind of
interpret and reinterpret. So it's always more fascinating
to watch stuff like this, right,Because two people can watch the
same thing and have a different reactions like we have.
Yeah, I think. The issue is that it's just like
I understand why you would want to make something deliberately
(14:05):
almost like documented, but it'sso unengaging for like like a
long period of it, especially it's you know, like the the
initial half, like whatever the 1st, it's not like the end.
We are the 10 like the first 40 minutes that defines how you
will engage with the movie goingforward.
It's only like 18 minutes. So if I'm not engaged with like
half of it, anything you do after that, even the stuff you
I'm not talking about. And I do like CD the Minas out
(14:29):
of body thing imagination or I think the pandy meeting everyone
was for the moment I actually sat up.
Otherwise I was literally, I think the points I was gonna
start looking at the wall in my bed sheet.
But I don't know. So I thought that so I was into
it from the 1st scene, right? Which is this elaborate kind of
tracking shot of this woman at dawn, right?
(14:49):
It's very haunting. It sets up a very different kind
of film, right? Because she's.
Yeah, but then what follows it doesn't follow that, right?
I feel like it's like that kind of like visual language is
abandoned after first shot. No, but I thought so that's it's
it's very reminiscent of Pebblesalso, right, Because he does a
lot of tracking shots and Pebbles and and I oh, OK, fine.
So I mean, great. Like I know this, you're good at
(15:11):
this and, and immediately suckedin this world, right, because of
just how not only because of just the time of day that you've
chosen, because it's very haunting kind of early dawn
light. And there is like this disease,
you know, St. lamps, which kind of add this kind of
artificiality to all of this also.
But then just the act of this woman is stricken, right?
(15:32):
She there's this something is happening, it's going to happen.
And she kind of drenches herself.
And then and then it ends on thereveal of this, this the main
woman, Mina and all that was fascinating because not a word
is spoken. But then you have this kind of
journey and then and then the movie kind of keeps evolving and
and in terms of just the form that you're Speaking of, that it
(15:52):
became monotonous. I thought it was doing so many
interesting things, right? Not only is it doing this rugged
kind of Western approach almost,but then there is like these
moments of abstract, either horror or comedy or just
weirdness. You know, he is kind of
experimenting with all of that. And I thought it was like really
ambitious and he had a technicallevel.
(16:12):
They had like in terms of teams also.
It's kind of out there. It's pretty, it's pretty angry.
So angry, I mean. Teams, I think actually I feel
more than that feel like with the technical level and I
actually don't like I wasn't into it.
I mentioned like Western stuff, you know, like when it's like, I
mean, things are like very sparse and thread when it is you
have to go down to the technicallevel to set up feature.
And The thing is, it's not actually, I feel like, you know,
(16:35):
doing it for me on a technical level, like it's as a sort of
coffee. And I was just like, it's
working. But also because there's so much
like filler dialogue about like people wanting to be like just
how they feel about the situation.
This is what they're going to do.
And it's like like, what are youcommunicating?
You might as well shut up and let me like certain piece in
this auto right now I think. There's like the rooster stuff
also. Which then I kept waiting for
(16:56):
that to like become actually like, I feel like a physical gag
funny, but it's just like, it's just there.
It's like, yeah, this is there for like longest way.
It doesn't transform into. Anything there is a funny bit
with when they dress. Yeah, yeah.
It kind of goes unconscious and like everybody stops and kind of
tries to resuscitate it only because they needed to be
sacrificed later as part of the ritual.
(17:18):
Like all that stuff is pretty funny.
And the kid is there with them and he's like, no, I want to
poop, I want to pee, etcetera, etcetera.
Now I really understand like thepurpose of just like, you know,
I feel like the cattle they gavehim like another sort of
reaction later when like after. Yeah, the.
Beaten up totally. And then she like smiled at her
and he spied and just like, where's like, What are you
trying to like? What are you?
(17:41):
I mean, I did think of that moment and there's two things
that could be happening, right? One is, are you going to turn
into a pandy, right? Or the opposite of but.
In that moment is traumatized. I don't think he's turning into
a pandy like. But you understand that all of
these people have kind of witnessed similar.
Yeah, yeah. If you build up in this
(18:01):
environment, like it's almost inevitable that you turn into a
pond or are they, or you turn into like one of those like
alcohol chasing dudes who are like who just go along with
those side pieces. Correct.
So the, the, the, the smile thatis like a little hint of like,
what who's, what are you going to be like?
Are you going to grow up to be someone who does this?
Which I thought was quite profound, you know, moments like
(18:22):
that. And yeah, which is probably why
we like this, yeah. Thing is this is that probably
proof of like how one same film that you saw like show the same
frame, that same heaven thing can like have such a diverse
differential impact on the audience.
No, I would kind of add a littlelayer of noise so that it's an
example of how a well made film,or at least that how I would
(18:44):
define a well made film to be, can evoke a different response
as opposed to say Dhoom 2 right?A lot of people like with whom
too? But.
Yeah, he's not a. Relying movie to.
Like the same response. But in terms of a movie of this
kind, you know, I'm guessing, I don't know.
I don't know, has this been likedivisive?
(19:04):
I'm not sure. I think people liked it.
I haven't read that much honestyso.
But yeah, it played like some Berlin, Berlin I think earlier
this year. Yeah, but it's.
Not, probably not the first timethat I've not liked a movie.
The Square festivals. Yeah, yeah.
The last. Yeah, but yeah, I mean, in a
year we're kind of like officialselections at of Indian movies
(19:28):
is finally happening. So it's a nice kind of the
evolution, I would say. OK, that does it.
That's all for the episode of The Long Take and follow us on
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