S9E3 - Walking the Poison Path with Coby Michael

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In this episode of The Magick Kitchen Podcast, we journey into the enigmatic realm of the Poison Path with Coby Michael, esteemed author of The Poison Path Herbal. Coby unveils the esoteric traditions of working with potent plant allies—those often shrouded in mystery and caution—highlighting their roles in magic, healing, and spiritual transformation.

Our conversation delves into the historical and ritualistic significance of these powerful botanicals, exploring how they have been revered and utilized by practitioners throughout the ages. Coby emphasizes the importance of respectful engagement and informed practice when navigating this path, offering insights into the spiritual connections and visionary experiences these plants can facilitate.

Whether you're a seasoned herbalist or a curious seeker, this episode invites you to explore the profound wisdom and transformative potential that lies within the Poison Path.

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To delve deeper into Coby Michael's work, including his writings, classes, and offerings, visit The Poisoner's Apothecary.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
This time in the Magic Kitchen, we are joined by
author Coby Michael.
I'm Leandra Witchwood.
And I'm Elise Wells.
And welcome to the Magic Kitchenpodcast, where we talk about
magic, kitchen witchcraft,herbs, and everything in
between.

SPEAKER_04 (00:57):
The Magic Kitchen Podcast is funded and supported
by thewitchwoodteahouse.com,offering a variety of
hand-blended loose leaf teas, aswell as loose herbs for all of
your ritual, spell work,wellness, and everyday enjoyment
needs.
If you would like to supportthis podcast while sipping a
great cup of tea, head over tothewitchwoodteahouse.com and

(01:21):
find the magic that's in storefor you.

SPEAKER_03 (01:23):
Kobe is an occult herbalist and magical
practitioner who teaches aboutthe ritual use of poisonous and
psychoactive plants.
The author of The Poison PathHerbal and co-author of Leo
Witch, he owns and operates ThePoisoner's Apothecary, an online
shop and educational resourcefor The Poison Path.
He has been blogging since 2016and has written articles for
Elrond, The Poisoner's Guild,This Witch Magazine, and The

(01:46):
Witch's Almanac.
The Poison Path Grimoire whatthe wheel of the year is one

(02:09):
more goddamn time.
Like this book is for you.
Like you will not have to endurethat.
You can just dive deep.
Like anyone who's like, I knoweverything there is to know
about poison path plants.
Like you need this book becauseI guarantee there's at least one
thing that's going to get you.
Right.
Yeah.
Just excited for something new.
It's so inspiring.
It's such a good book.

(02:30):
Like, sorry, I could reallyrave.
It was.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (02:33):
I'm raving too, because I was reading this and I
know a lot about The PoisonPath.
I know a lot about herbalism.
I've been studying it for 20something years.
And I was like, oh, I've neverheard of that.
I got to go like research that alittle bit more.
And, you know, it's these kindsof books that I look forward to.
The ones that really take mefrom what I thought I knew to,
oh, crap, I need to know moreabout this.

(02:55):
And that's what I love aboutthis.
And then you go really in detailof like creating those
relationships with the path.
that I think get overlooked insome books, kind of like skirted
over, like, oh yeah, you justblow cinnamon out of your hand.
I know I keep harping on thatone, my listeners, but I hate
that practice, just blowingcinnamon out your door.
Like, I feel like it's sotrivial and it doesn't really

(03:17):
connect you with the spirit, theanimism of the practice.
And I think your book reallytaps into that, getting to know
the plant before you startreally working with it.
So welcome to the podcast.
I'm so glad to have you here.
I've actually met you in person.
We met at Temple Fest and I tookone of your workshops there that
was astonishing and I loved itand I had to have you on the

(03:39):
podcast.
So welcome.

SPEAKER_01 (03:42):
Thank you.
I'm excited to be here.

SPEAKER_03 (03:43):
The first thing I actually want to start with is
why the Poison Path?
Because I thought you did areally good job of sort of
getting into that because I'mnot a herbalist.
My connection to plants isthrough land.
So if it's not growing aroundme, and often, I don't know the
name of the plant.

(04:04):
I will have to spend time,because I live most of the year
in Greece.
I'm currently, as of recordingthis, we're recording it early
in 2025.
I am in the US.
And then I lived in the MiddleEast as a kid.
So there's just been a lot ofbiomes that I've spent time in.
So I truly don't feel like Iknow individual plants the way I
would like to.

(04:24):
But those are the ones I tend toknow is like if it's around me
and I Google it in that momentand I feel really secure with my
plant app, like that's my plantknowledge.
So I went into this book assomebody who was like, let's see
how this would serve that pathof like more shamanistic land
connection.
And my notes are ridiculousbecause at first I wasn't sure

(04:47):
if it was for me at all.
But what you said in thebeginning, like got me very
hooked.
You explained that Poison pathplants, poison plants are
specifically helpful forprocessing shadow work and
releasing shame and fear andalchemizing those things.
And you said something thatreally resonated with me.

(05:09):
The shame and fear we are toldto feel in response to our
darker sides is the real shadow.
And that was that for me.
Like I was like, oh, that'sexactly, like exactly.
And I think that's why this,path calls to certain people is
they're like, like self-work andthis whole idea and like the,

(05:29):
the spiritual movement at largeof like self-improvement and
like that need to always bebetter and all that.
It actually can really just bean echo chamber of shame and
fear again and again.
And poison plants actually getus to truly alchemize that and
recognize that we're kind oflike spinning our wheels down
here when like the waterfall isactually rushing from up there
and poison plants are like,we're going to go up to that

(05:49):
waterfall.

SPEAKER_01 (05:53):
Very cool.
I'm glad that that stuck outbecause that kind of became a
pretty big theme of this bookwas the shadow work and kind of
understanding poison as anenergetic force, you know, sort
of a concept, an alchemicalconcept of something that

(06:13):
influences us and flows throughus and is a means of, you
expressing all sorts ofdifferent qualities.
You know, we talk about liketoxic relationships, toxic
people, poisons that we put inour body that negatively affect
us in different ways and all ofthese different metaphors for
sort of what this this conceptof poison is.

(06:36):
So incorporating that intoshadow work became a really big
theme of this second book.
So, yeah, for me, it was justkind of a realization that It is
the shame and the fear thatreally caused the negative
effects of what we consider theshadow.

(06:57):
And I think that embodying thoseaspects more fully and really
being able to sit with them andembrace them and, you know, in
some cases going to thatopposite end of the spectrum and
and connecting with that darkerside of ourselves that we're

(07:20):
able to get a better sense andunderstanding for what it is and
where it comes from.
And then we kind of have therealization of that being not
necessarily what defines us aspeople, maybe as a small part of
ourselves, but we're able tokind of separate it a little bit
more and allow the shadow tosort of sit across from us and

(07:47):
have a conversation where we'reboth able to sort of express
ourselves and come to a deeperunderstanding and i think that's
really where like the goal ofshadow work or the the inner
integration or embracing theshadow kind of comes from and
that's where the the healingcomes from yeah

SPEAKER_04 (08:05):
i've said that many many times it's like you need to
be able to sit across the tableand have a cup of tea with your
shadow that you can integrateits lessons and see what
superpower you developed throughthat shadow.
Maybe your shadow was beingquiet and being observant.
So now you're able to observepeople a little more detailed
and you know what theirintentions are before they

(08:28):
express the intention typething.
Those little nuances you canpick up on.
And yeah, I love the aspect ofshadow work that you work with
because it's so...
real it's not fluff it's notsomething that oh we're going to
do this journal prompt and we'reall healed no we're going to dig

(08:49):
in deep we're going to getcomfortable with it and but to
get through that you have to beuncomfortable kind of you have
to go through that metaphormorphosis and i i really
appreciate that

SPEAKER_01 (09:00):
yeah definitely lots of different layers to shadow
work and i think it's a anongoing continuous work um never
goes away.
So it's always part of us andpart of our learning and healing
journey.
And I think in a lot of cases,the shadow is, you know, it's a
spiritual ally.

(09:22):
It's where we can experience themost growth.
And in a lot of cases, theshadow is kind of a protector
that emerges as an aspect ofourself in response to trauma or
in response to somebody tellingus that something about

(09:44):
ourselves is not good or notacceptable.
And then we kind of let thislittle shadow persona out that
then acts as a buffer to kind ofprotect what's the most precious
to us inside.
So I think partnering with theshadow and working with it in
different ways that areempowering is really, really
important.

SPEAKER_05 (10:04):
Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (10:09):
It's something you said about the poison path and
shadow work kind ofconjunctively.
Is that the way to say that?
Conjunctively?
Sounds right.
Sounds weird, but it soundsright.
I know.

UNKNOWN (10:23):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (10:24):
conjunction junction what okay unrelated but that's
what my brain said was thecorrect answer anyway something
you said um about both was youthis is your quote from page 19
because like i said i have somany notes on this book like it
was really it like it meant somuch to me to read this book you
said you are the one who is incontrol even when you choose to

(10:47):
surrender and it's That is, thatis says so much.
Like I want to put it on aposter next to my hang in there,
baby.
Like it's so powerful toremember and people forget it so
often.
Like I, I recently ran a courseon the dark goddesses called the
red thread.
And I kind of just delved intolike the 10 years of Inanna
priestessing I've been doing andthe connections that were the

(11:09):
years of traveling differentsacred sites between different
goddesses, which put a pin inthat.
Cause I do want to ask you aboutVenus, the witch queen as well.
In relation to that work, I do.
But people will say to me like,oh, I'm being called by a dark
goddess and I'm terrifiedbecause I don't want to do the
shadow work.
And I'm like, what are youafraid of?
And they're like getting out ofcontrol or like instantly we

(11:31):
start using like these more, Ihate gendering things, but like
the more masculine, like thelogic, the rational, like
they're afraid that like they'lllose control.
You know, even the word controlis like, kind of a word we have
to relinquish on the spiritualpath.
We never have control.
Leandra and I were just talkingthe other day about how...
Actually, I might have even beentalking about your book, how I

(11:54):
could have never timed for mylife this interview, reading
this book, showing up today.
For listeners, we're recordingthis the day I arrived from my
three-day descent trip that Idid in early January that I
talked about back then.
But And it's amazing how thepath, when we surrender to it,

(12:14):
will take us where we'resupposed to go.
And we do have to relinquishthat control.
And it is so terrifying.
But actually, we are the onewho's in control because we said
yes to the surrender.
So it's just a constant, likeyou said, it's never over.
We're always spiraling back andwe're, you know, coming back
around to lessons.
But we are in control of everyexperience because we've stepped

(12:36):
that foot onto the path.

UNKNOWN (12:37):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (12:38):
And you put in the almost next page, you talk about
inviting the fates into yourworkings, into your circle, into
your path, and how manypractitioners find that
dangerous.
And I agreed with you when yousaid, no, they're already there.
They've always been there.
The fates, they're part of thepath.

(12:58):
I was like, yes, yes, yes.
The catalyst for chaos is ourcatalyst for change.
We can't change when we arecomplacent or we're comfortable
there has to be that thatwashing machine effect that
agitation so I love that you putthat in there

SPEAKER_01 (13:18):
yeah I think that you know healing is an important
thing and I think that there's atime and a place for that and
you know, part of this, thishealing process and where we're
at collectively and individuallyis, you know, there's a time to
heal and a time to fight.

(13:39):
And sometimes, you know, lookingat it as, as surrendering and
letting go of control should bea very like empowering and
exhilarating thing.
Like let the monster out, giveit a chance to, you know, fully
wreak havoc and, and, chaos andjust let that really intense

(14:00):
primal energy kind of flow outof you and flow through you.
And, you know, knowing that youcan always come back to center,
just like, you know, when we goon a journey in meditation or,
you know, differentvisualizations, like you are
always able to find a way back.
Like nobody is losing theirconnection to their physical

(14:23):
body and just like wanderingaround out in the ethers in like
a catatonic state for forever.
So we always have that abilityto kind of come back to center.
So I think that it's importantto kind of embody and exist in
both of those extremes.
And it's not until you'recomfortable with doing that,
that you're able to, you know,get a sense for all of the

(14:46):
variation that exists in betweenthose.

SPEAKER_04 (14:50):
And you go on to talk about the Nightshade family
and how their themes are of sex,death, and power.
And later in that paragraph, youtalk about how they are feminine
and also their magic is subtle,sneaky, and sometimes sinister,

(15:11):
but not in a malicious sense.
I loved that.
That was so perfect.
It was so eloquent because it'strue.
They are sneaky.
They don't always give you thefull spectrum, the full
perspective.
And I think it's more of in away of letting you take the
journey so that you can go havethat aha moment.

(15:32):
Oh, it's been there the wholetime type thing.

SPEAKER_01 (15:37):
Yeah, they're definitely, you know, sneaky in
a sense of, you know, there'scertain things about them that
are seductive and attractive andthat kind of draw you in.
And that was what initially...
um, piqued my interest in theseplants was their, you know,
their association to witchcraftand their different uses in, in
spell work and all of the occultside of it.

(15:59):
And it was like, that was kindof like the carrot at the end of
the rope that they're like, youknow, this is how we're going to
get this guy's attention.
And then further down the road,then you realize like all of
these different, um, healingprocesses and shedding of old
versions of yourself and, um,all of the work that they had in

(16:20):
store, you know, when theyinitially enticed you in under
one kind of pretense and thenshow up as these totally
different kind of entities thathave much more in store.
Yeah,

SPEAKER_04 (16:36):
that was certainly my experience with Belladonna
going through a Belladonnaceremony.
You know, I thought, oh, okay,it'll just be like a cool
experience.
You know, I'll see what happens.
But it was, My experience withher when I was finally
confronted with her trueessence, she was terrifying, but
so exhilarating and sobeautiful.
And it was just this moment ofthe calling was there.

(17:00):
And it was finally like all theveils were pulled off of my eyes
and I could see it all.
But it's like that blip, thatmoment where you're like, ah, I
get it.
And then once you're out of thatstate, you're like, oh, wait,
what did I get?
What was that?

UNKNOWN (17:14):
Yeah.

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SPEAKER_02 (17:42):
We got to go do these beautiful rituals that,
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SPEAKER_03 (18:02):
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Join us at seekingnumina.comslash sacredwildpriestess or tap
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Early Bird ends June 10th.
So I wanted to ask you to tellour listeners, this was like
mind-blowing for me to learnabout, tell us what entheogen

(18:24):
really means.
Because actually before you saythat, people are thinking poison
and they're like, okay, theseplants are dangerous.
But like people are ingestingpoison consistently in this
country, in the United States.
Like there's over 300- Well,pharmaceuticals aside, there are
over...
Pharmaceuticals for sure.
But there are over 300 foodgrade, quote unquote, chemicals

(18:45):
in the US that are not foodgrade anywhere else in the
world.
And they're just naturally inour food.
And in the...
I've been in the US now for awhile, like through the
holidays.
And like my nails will not grow.
I've never had that problemsince living in Greece.
My hair stopped growing.
And I've been taking twice asmuch biotin as usual.
Like there is like no nutrientsin anything here.
And...
All that to say, people takepoisons all the time.

(19:07):
And I want people to realizethat a lot of these plants
aren't really that scary when weconsider alcohol.
Alcohol is horrible for ourbody.
So just as we talk about thesepoison plants and the
psychoactive effects andhallucinations and all the
things that people might bereally timid about, have an open
mind because nothing is as badfor us as half the things we can

(19:31):
buy in the grocery store.
Okay, that's not true.
Some of these plants can bequite dangerous if you're not
responsible.
But with responsible approaches,I think these plants are quite
approachable.
So yes, tell our listeners whatentheogens actually are, because
this was like...

SPEAKER_01 (19:47):
Yeah, and on the word poison too, it's such a
broad umbrella term for plants,substances, things that we come
into contact with that have areally, really broad...
spectrum of different effects.
So poison doesn't alwaysultimately mean death or, you

(20:08):
know, grievous bodily harm, youknow, the very same substances
or chemical compounds that makea plant, quote, poisonous are
also where it derives itsmedicinal properties from.
So there's all different waysthat a plant could be considered
poisonous.
And there's been a, you know,2,000-year-long conversation

(20:31):
when we look at the earliestconcepts of that in Greece with
the pharmacon, in Latin withvenenum, and then early modern
medicine evolving in thisconversation about what poison
actually was.
Was it this quantifiable thingthat had the same effect on

(20:54):
every single organism that ithad?
contact with was it thisquantifiable thing that existed
in all of these different plantsand animals that was just like a
you know a specific substanceand then we realized that it's
all of these other variousdifferent chemical actions you

(21:15):
know so one poisonous plantmight give you a really upset
stomach or I'm not going to talkabout that.
That's too gross to talk about.
A really upset stomach oranother one might just like
completely shut down yournervous system, stop your heart.
So it's a very wide kind ofbroad spectrum of effects.

(21:36):
But when it comes to the termentheogen, that was a term that
was developed in the 1970s by agroup of ethnobotanists,
anthropologists that werestudying the world's plant
medicines.

(21:56):
So a variety of differentpsychoactive plants with
ceremonial use around the world.
So they came up with this termentheogen to differentiate from
the word psychedelic, which atthe time had a lot of baggage
associated with like thecounterculture and hippies and

(22:19):
things like that.
So they wanted a more, I guess,like academically appropriate
term.
So they took two words fromGreek, ancient Greek, which
you'll probably know like waymore about these words than I
do.
And I've never actually heardthem pronounced out loud.
So I don't know if I'll say themright, but we've got entheos and

(22:43):
which has the same root of theword for deity or divine.
So theos is to be inspired,possessed, connected to a deity,
connected to the divine.
And then the second word wherewe get the gen is genestai.

(23:06):
G-E-N-E-N-E-N-E-N.

SPEAKER_03 (23:09):
Yeah.
Great.
So, and this is a random, no,you finish your thing.
Sorry.
I'll tell you a random thingabout Greek pronunciation.
That is so infuriating.

SPEAKER_01 (23:18):
It just means to become filled with the divine,
to create the divine within, togenerate the divine within.
But I even look at it as, youknow, not so much like invoking
a deity or a spirit, but alsolike, manifesting that already
existing connection to thedivine that we have within

(23:41):
ourselves.
So with it being entheogen,inward, it implies that sort of
consumption of something thatfacilitates that connection or
wakes it up.

SPEAKER_03 (23:56):
Yeah.
So entheos is correct.
Everything you said is true.
It's also interesting because Ithink I think this was in your
book.
It might've been a differentbook I was reading concurrently.
Cause I also was reading Whenthe Drummers Were Women by Lane
Redmond.
And I was rereading Inanna, Ladyof Largest Heart.

(24:16):
And I was reading Spiral Dancewhile I was reading your book.
So I was like, just jumpingbetween all of them.
And something else I wasthinking about with Entheogen is
Entheogen Enthusiasm,enthusiasmos, which is like the
ancient Greek word for it, isthe same thing.

(24:37):
Was that in your book about

SPEAKER_01 (24:38):
enthusiasm?

SPEAKER_03 (24:39):
I

SPEAKER_01 (24:41):
don't know if it was in this last one.
It's in the one that I'm workingon because I was literally just
like rewriting it.
Oh my gosh.
in the collude in the conclusionum so yeah it has to do with
like think of it as like poeticinspiration so it doesn't always
have to be like connecting to aspecific deity but just like
that ecstasy that intoxicationlike shamanic sort of intensity

(25:05):
and

SPEAKER_03 (25:06):
it's like eudaimonia which is the same thing it's
that you've been daemon is likespirit so you've been like
eudaimonia like you've beenimbued with the spirit because
people like forget this but likeevery animism today is kind of a
smaller version of what animismwas for our ancestors it was so

(25:28):
everything back then like ifthey got an idea for a new book
The idea was sentient.
They understood it to be its ownspirit.
Like there was just anemblematic understanding of
spirit.
And that's how they understoodgenius as well.
It was like an external spirit.
So it was not like we're justrediscovering.
We're remembering what ourancestors always knew about

(25:49):
plants, which is that they are aspirit that we're calling on to
work with us when we engage inresearch.
in any ritual with plants.
And I think that's such abeautiful, it's crazy.
Like I'm reading the word inEnglish and I was like, I didn't
see it.
But yeah, enteos, like bringingthe gods into you, the divine
within.
And then the other cool thingabout the root word of like gen,

(26:12):
anything that starts with gammais actually a Y when it's the
first, only when it's the firstletter or when it's two of them
in a row.
So like enteos, I'm trying tothink of a word that has two in
a row.
Like angisi is the word forguarantee and it's spelled like
E gamma gamma.

(26:34):
So it's an eng sound.
But anyway, we're not here tolearn how to pronounce Greek.
But that word generate is thesame word for generation, which
is the same word in Greek asancestor.
So it literally, to me, thisword is saying like Generate the
divine within as your ancestorsdid.
Like it's got so much in thoseroot words.

SPEAKER_01 (27:01):
The etymology of words is just like a really
fascinating topic andlinguistics in general.
And I think that's how we canreally draw a lot of this sort
of.
ancient understanding that, youknow, comes from oral
traditions, or maybe it's justsomething that wasn't written
down or, you know, was lostthrough like picking apart these
different word meanings andplace names.

(27:24):
And it can tell us a lot aboutlike what the people actually
believed about those associatedthings through looking at the
words etymology.
And that's something I like to,I guess, kind of reiterate when
people ask you know differentways to connect to the plants of

(27:44):
the poison path or to plants ingeneral because we can sometimes
like dehumanize them um and theyjust become you know ingredients
or you know mix a plus b to getc so they're sort of reduced to
their cause and effect but yeahPoisonous plants in particular

(28:05):
have such a big personality andall of these characteristics and
these dramatic stories that makeit a lot easier for us to, like,
anthropomorphize them.
So I kind of equate it to, youknow, working with any other
spirit or deity.
You know, how do you connectwith the goddess Hecate?

(28:30):
You know, you don't necessarilyor...
never have a physical piece ofher that you are working with in
that way to connect to and callupon her.
We've got images, stories,invocations, all of these things
that connect us mentally,emotionally, and spiritually to

(28:52):
the concept and the constructthat is Hecate that allow us to
bring that spiritual essenceinto our presence.
And I think that we can workwith plants in very much the
same way once we start to thinkabout them again as like their
own spiritual consciousness.

SPEAKER_04 (29:14):
Yes, I love that because it's, I think it's
what's missing in most herbalpractices right now.
A lot of people just want toknow what, what, the active
ingredient is and the idea thatwe just use X, Y, Z, and we get

(29:35):
results where the, and I stressthis constantly, like we have to
develop that relationship.
We have to develop thatunderstanding.
And I mean, you, you tell, tell,you know, you get into the
herbs, you get detailed intosome of the plants like
blackberry and, and, When I wasreading, you know, the, the

(29:57):
vampiric herbs and the, the ideathat, you know, that there are
taboos associated with theseplants.
Like maybe that's why we, wegravitate towards the idea of
just superficially connectingwith them and using them in the
commodified way.
And in thinking of that, itreminds me of like how I've

(30:21):
interacted with Blackberry andhow I've integral it is now to
my path.
It grows at every doorway in myhouse.
And it did that naturally.
I didn't ask it to.
I mean, I did in a way.
But my relationship with it, itshows up where it needs to.
And you were talking about howit grabs energy, how it pulls
energy.
And absolutely, I've watched itdo this.

(30:41):
Anybody who shows up at my doorwith energy that I don't want in
my home, I will see that bushgrab them and hold on to them.
And it's done it to me too.
When I'm in an awkward state orI'm in a state that's not
conducive to whatever I'msupposed to be doing, I will, I

(31:02):
come, I'm not even touching thatbush and somehow it grabs me.
It'll scratch me or it'll grabmy sweater or my clothes.
And then I know, okay, stop.
it's talking to me now.
And I think that's therelationship we start building
is when we start understandingthese plants and their function,
what they do for us on aspiritual level, on a medicinal
level, on an energetic level.

SPEAKER_01 (31:23):
And, you know, just looking at the word entheogen,
you know, it implies that divineand spiritual connection.
So I know that the term was in,specific reference to plants

(31:44):
that we would considerpsychoactive or psychedelic or
hallucinogenic.
And I think it's like atightrope that we kind of walk
because on the one hand, youknow, the chemistry and the
active constituents, it's very,very fascinating.
And it's also very important,you know, when it comes to
working with poisonous plantsand knowing what they are

(32:05):
capable of, how they should beapplied safely, you different
modalities of using them, whatthe dosages are, you know, so
that's a really important partof getting this more intimate
understanding on how to workwith them safely.
But then on the other side ofthat, like we have to remember
as magical practitioners,spiritual practitioners, that

(32:28):
they, you know, they have thischemical potency, but they also
have this spiritual potency.
And so working with somethingentheogenically doesn't always
have to mean that we areingesting it or that we are, you
know, having thesehallucinogenic experiences.
And I think that sometimespeople get sort of caught up on

(32:52):
looking at that side of itversus sitting with the living
plant or working with the floweressence or incorporating it into
spell work in any of the myriadof other ways that we
incorporate plants into spellwork.
It's almost like because theyhave this chemical potency that
people become so fixated on thatthat they forget all of the

(33:14):
other techniques that we havefor connecting and working with
plant spirits.

SPEAKER_04 (33:21):
Yeah, for sure.
And I think in that sense, wealso forget that there's plants
that we work with every singleday that have that toxic
capability, like nutmeg.
Take too much nutmeg, you'regoing to have some trouble.
Cinnamon, it's incrediblycommon.
We have it in just about everybaked good out there.

(33:41):
But what happens when you take atablespoon of cinnamon?
It suddenly becomes this...
you know, fight or flight systemthat erupts in the body because
that's not what you're supposedto be doing with it.
But even ginger, you know, it'sconsidered a heal all, but take
too much ginger.
What happens?
You're on fire.
And like another personalitywithin that plant erupts,

(34:05):
another personality, anotherversion of that plant becomes
evident to us.
And I think that's why it's soimportant to really get to know
your plants and work with them,not just use them.

SPEAKER_01 (34:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
Even, you know, something thatwe use really commonly in herbal
medicine, like elderberry, youknow, fresh elderberry is
poisonous.
You know, if we burn the wood,it releases toxins that can be
poisonous.
And so that's where like a lotof these taboos come from too in
folklore and like, you know,don't bring...

(34:43):
elderwood into the house don'tburn it or you're going to upset
the spirit well there's a youknow a chemical component that
supports that too so that'salways really interesting to
find when there's thatcorrelation between different
superstitions and taboosconnected to how to interact
with the plant and then we findout that well you know there's

(35:05):
also these these chemicalreasons for it too

SPEAKER_04 (35:08):
our ancestors knew they were dumb If you're a

(35:30):
serious practitioner teeteringon the cusp of progress, it's
time to step into true spiritualmastery.
This is your invitation to jointhe Gardens of the Mystic
Initiation and CertificationProgram, where I offer
practitioners like you advancedteachings and guided

(35:51):
experiences.
Sign up now atleandrawichwood.com or find the
link in the show notes to learnmore.
Embrace your higher calling.
Your journey awaits.

SPEAKER_03 (36:01):
Speaking of things that are you know, we can look
at folklore to see directcorrelation to, you know,
perhaps scientific fact.
Um, one of the folklore piecesthat you brought in that I
really enjoyed was the devil'sgarden and the devil's acre.
Um, if you can tell ourlisteners a bit about that,
cause it actually, it's anancient practicing in Greece

(36:24):
that they still do in thevillages, the devil's acre
concept, not quite the same, butsimilar.

SPEAKER_04 (36:30):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (36:32):
Very cool.
I didn't know that there was anancient Greek root to that.
That's really awesome.
So the idea and concept of that,and I think where it was
introduced, at least to me, wasthrough, I think it was Gemma
Gary's work, The Devil's Dozen,where I think that the idea was

(36:56):
introduced.
But it was essentially this...
acre or parcel of land thatfarmers would take out of their
their fields or what they wereusing to plant their crops.
And it would kind of be setaside and left wild, you know,
sort of an offering to the devilbeing the folkloric devil or the

(37:18):
spirits of the land.
to appease them.
So kind of saying like, youknow, I'm going to set aside
this little area for you overhere in hopes that, you know, my
crops do well and I'm not havinglike blight or, you know, other
issues with drought and thingslike that.

(37:38):
So it's kind of a liminal,offertory space.
But then I kind of take that tobe a place where we as green
witches and plant practitionerscan also connect with that, um,
sort of adversarial spirit thatexists in nature.
That is sort of the, the wildand primal side.

SPEAKER_03 (38:00):
So in ancient Greece, this wild and primal
side, I always identify as pan.
Like that's my, there's amillion horn gods highly
recommend horn, uh, Horned Godof the Witches by Jason Mankey.
For anyone who's like, hmm,horned gods?
Hmm, Pan?
Definitely, that's a great book.

(38:21):
I also just started Magic at theCrossroads by Kate Freuler, and
that is pretty good, too.
I'm only one chapter in so far.
Definitely more devil-basedthan, like, Pan-based.
Anyway, all that to say, inancient Greece, my family
actually come from Arcadia,which was where Pan was
traditionally worshipped.
And in the village that myfamily's from, unfortunately...

(38:43):
It's like not really possible tolive there today unless you are
just an old farmer becausethere's no internet.
The electrics hit or miss.
It runs out of water every Julyand August.
You have to have your ownreservoirs.
Like it's a lot of things thatmake it kind of prohibitive to
live there, which is a shame.
But the very, very elderly whostill live there actually still

(39:04):
do a practice of offering towhat they call the stihia, which
the best translation of thatword is like elementals.
And they fear them, like theysee them kind of as pan, but
today they're, they wouldn'thave, you know, they're Greek
Orthodox, so they're not goingto call it an ancient deity.
But, but it's definitely thesame practice, the same idea of
like warding away bad energy bygiving the first fruits to the

(39:28):
Stikia traditionally at thespring, like at the water source
for the town.
So it would kind of serve twopurposes.
Like it would keep the stichiaaway from affecting your crops
negatively.
It also would say to the springgoddess, keep creating water
because we need you.
And then they have a devil'sacre practice that's almost in

(39:48):
reverse, which is if you don'tclear your land before,
depending who you ask, like theymight say summer solstice.
Nowadays, unfortunately, youreally want to be doing that
around Beltane because ofclimate change.
But if you don't clear yourland, you're inviting wildfire
to eat your house is the belief.
And unfortunately that's justtrue because brush burns

(40:09):
fastest.
So it's kind of like a reversedevil's acre that like, if you
let your land run rampant, itwill invite the quote unquote
devil to your space.
Do you have any questions you, Ihave, I have a few more about
it.
Go

SPEAKER_04 (40:23):
run with it.
We'll just keep conversing.
I'm looking at all my marks andstuff.
And like all of it, it's like,I'm looking at the, like the
devil's acre and stuff likethat.
Yeah.
Like my home week yard is thedevil's acre.
I just let it run wild.
I let it do what it's going todo.
And I have the greatest thingslike grow there, you know, like
things I never planted growthere and it's great.

(40:43):
So I'm all, I'm all for thisdevil's acre thing.
I was doing it before I knewwhat it was.
I

SPEAKER_01 (40:50):
feel like in a lot of ways too, it can kind of act
as sort of a crossroads.
So a place to do spell work, toconnect to different spirits
that, you know, you don't haveto find a crossroads or go to
the middle of an intersection,but you've got sort of this

(41:10):
uncultivated liminal space rightin your garden or your backyard.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (41:15):
And literally in my yard.
So I have it landscaped so thatI have pathways that are mowed.
So one of them is literally acrossroad.
And on one side, it's like mywormwood grows and the other
side, it's just vegetables andstuff like that.
And then one side, it's all mymotherwort.
And then on another side is Ihaven't planted anything.

(41:36):
It's just wild.
And that's my favorite place tosit is like in that crossword
road right there.
I

SPEAKER_03 (41:46):
wanted to pick your brain because you said in the
book that you've done some work,extensive work, you might have
even said with Venus, the witchqueen.
And I'm a priestess of Inannafor 10 years now.
And she's kind of led me on ajourney throughout the world of
like recognizing andunderstanding the ancient
worship of aspects of her.
And somehow, this is what I loveabout the spiritual path.

(42:09):
There's always something new tolearn.
Somehow I've never come acrossthis archetype or this aspect of
Venus.
If you could share with us a bitabout that.

SPEAKER_01 (42:20):
Yeah, I think it has to do with the medieval concept
of the witch's Sabbath, right?
And a lot of these locationsthat were connected to the
Witch's Sabbath were alsoconnected to the goddess Venus.
So we've got the VenusburgMountain, the Brocken Hill,

(42:42):
which is where the witches weresaid to hold their Sabbaths.
So I kind of consider Venus tobe a very, I guess, dualistic
goddess.
So we've got like the...
sort of the mainstream conceptsof what it is to be a feminine
deity, you know, beingassociated with love and beauty

(43:04):
and abundance and fertility.
But they also often have thisvery ferocious sort of like
monstrous side to it.
And we see it in the goddessVenus, you know, being very
jealous in a lot of cases andpunishing people, causing all
sorts of, you know, chaos andalmost like a, parallel to the

(43:29):
goddess Eris or Discordia youknow very jealous it's almost
like they have a shadow

SPEAKER_04 (43:37):
side

SPEAKER_01 (43:37):
Yeah, definitely.
Shadow side.
Oh, you see it in the goddessFreyja in Norse cosmology,
where, you know, not only is sheassociated with love and
fertility and sex, but she'salso a fierce battle goddess,
you know, chooses half of theslain warriors to join her in
Folkvangir and await the end ofthe world.

(44:00):
So she's like building thisarmy, you know, so they also
show these very fiercequalities, which I think is
important to kind of recognizethat when it talks when it comes
to talking about feminineenergies so goddess when it or
Venus when it comes to greenwitchcraft and plant magic she

(44:24):
is kind of associated with theabundance of the earth in
general so thereby you knowconnected to all sorts of plant
work but we also have like thatthat poison path aspect where
she is connected to the morebaneful herbs as well.

(44:46):
They used to have gardens ofVenus, which were gardens that
were full of differentaphrodisiac and intoxicating
herbs.
But I also think that she has aconnection to the garden of
Hecate, which is where all thepoisonous plants grow as well.
And I think that it's somethingthat really kind of manifests in

(45:08):
the plants of the poison path,specifically members of the
nightshade family.
We often talk about theirmedicinal properties as far as
like pain relief, musclerelaxation.
They're potential for poisoningand being deadly.
But then they're also, you know,very popularly used as

(45:29):
aphrodisiacs and in love magic.
So we have the datura ortoluache in Mexico that is used
in all sorts of different formsof love magic, from the benign
to the manipulative.
We've got henbane, anothermember of the nightshade family,
which is known for itsaphrodisiac properties.

(45:51):
It's still used even in Europetoday in mildly psychoactive
aphrodisiac massage oils.
It was burned in bathhouses tobasically make people horny and
lower their inhibitions so theycould have a good time.
Same thing with DeadlyNightshade, you know, used in

(46:14):
beautification, said to dilatepeople's pupils to make them
look more appealing.
And so there's kind of like thiselement of, you know, glamour
and seduction and what we wouldconsider very like feminine
Venusian side to a lot of these,you know, dark and poisonous
plants.
And I think that that's where...

(46:35):
kind of the role and idea of thewitch queen comes into you and
sort of embodying both of theseaspects.

SPEAKER_03 (46:45):
I love it.
And it's so true.
Like I think what I've had tocome to terms with, like it's
been really good gettingquestions from people about dark
goddess people with, because youforget sometimes you've been on
the path a while, you sometimesforget like what those beginner
questions are.
And one of the big questions Iget again and again is like, I

(47:05):
want to live a joyful life.
Why would I work with a darkgoddess?
I don't like that she's callingme because that means my life is
going to get harder.
And it's just never true.
The more we work with ourshadow, the more comfortable we
get with who that shadow versionof ourselves are, the more we
get to be joyful because there'snothing holding us back.

(47:27):
We've all done that thing wherewe're procrastinating.
on something we know we have todo.
Maybe it's sending an email,maybe it's calling that person,
whatever it is.
And you know that if you just goabout your day and you're like,
oh, great day, I'm going to goget Dunkin', get my coffee.
You're going to be in the backof your mind, just, I really
need to do that thing.
I really need to do that thing.
Whereas if you had just done thething first, how much more would
you enjoy that Dunkin' run orthat hike or all the things that

(47:51):
you want to treat yourself forbecome so much more enjoyable
because you're of this darkerside.
And I think one of the darkersides of our shadow that gets
kind of, it's been so demonized.
Like even the fact that we callVenus a dark goddess, like it's,
why dark?
Why was that the word they used?
It's first of all, it'scolonization.

(48:12):
You know, it's otherization.
Second of all, it's patriarchal.
It's saying other.
It's pushing them into the wronghalf of things because that's
what patriarchy likes to do.
It likes to dichotomize.
And part of that quote unquote,darkness they want us to
dichotomize and always want toavoid is the seductive.

(48:32):
It is that ability to know thepower you hold as a woman or as
somebody who's embodyingseduction because you can be any
gender and do that.
I think it's been demonizedagainst women for so long
because it was easy.
Men could do whatever theywanted to women and say, oh,
she, look, but she was pretty.

(48:52):
That's not me.
That's not on me.
That's not her.
Look how pretty she is.
And one of the things that Ithink I'm most grateful for
learning through my work withthe Dark Goddesses is that we
always are walking that thinsword that Poison represents so
beautifully of, do we want to bedestructive?

(49:15):
Do we want to create?
Do we want to be manipulative?
Do we want to be gentle andforthcoming and authentic?
And in a way, we can't know whatthat authenticity is if we've
never experienced what thatmanipulation is.
Even if it's, maybe we don'thave to go through the
manipulation phase, but beingable to recognize ways we've
been manipulated or manipulationhas played a part in our path,

(49:37):
it gives us that grounding andthat frame of reference to then
say, no, I'm gonna take my powerback and actually being
seductive, being sensual, whichis not the same as sexual, by
the way, everybody, knowing yourpower and your beauty is a
choice.
It's something we can decide totap into and...
And I love that poison isactually, it's so tied up in

(49:59):
that path.

SPEAKER_01 (50:02):
Yeah, I think it teaches and expresses sort of
the power that can be found inthe shadow or in this concept of
darkness.
You know, and if we think oflike all of these feminine
deities that are considered darkgoddesses and, you know, not
only deities, but, you differentapocryphal figures, other

(50:29):
spirits in mythology.
You know, we've got like Lilith,Medusa, Hecate, Kali.
You know, these are all femininepresenting figures that embody
empowerment, that embodyferocity, that have this
independence, that are, youknow, not submissive that stand

(50:51):
in their own power and for thatthey are put into this category
of dark goddesses that thenwe're taught to to be afraid of
we're taught to be afraid ofstepping into that power and you
know taking things into our ownhands and just like the um the

(51:13):
spirit or demon or deity Lilith,you know, not submitting to
Adam, you know, she was Adam'sfirst wife and everything was
supposed to go great.
And then she was like, no, I'drather do it this way.
And then, you know, that whole,whole storyline and demonization
of that kind of came out of her,you know, just, just speaking
her, her mind and trying to liveher truth.

(51:35):
And so I think that we associatethose things, those qualities
with being negative or beingcorruptive and wanting to keep
people submissive and going withthe status quo and not
disrupting society, notdisrupting the patriarchal

(51:57):
constructs that keep us kind oflocked in these different gender
roles.
And that's where even like queeridentity is so important and
playing with these differentideas of masculinity and
femininity is really likestepping into that power.
And I think that we shouldassociate that ability to walk

(52:20):
in the shadow as something thatis empowering and something that
we should be proud of andhonored to do.
And, you know, not somethingthat's going to cause us to be
punished or to make our livesmore difficult.
You know, it's very much likestepping into kind of an
Abrahamic, you know,transgressive sin equals

(52:42):
punishment kind of a narrative,which is what we're trying to
get out of.

SPEAKER_05 (52:46):
Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 (52:48):
Oh, my gosh.
Yes.
Literally, like I can't even Ican't even with sin.
It doesn't exist.
People sin is made up.
It's straight up not real.
People are always like, oh, butno, they're really sit with
that.
That's to listeners like that'smy encouragement.
Sit with that.
Meditate on that.
Journal on that.
Really look for anything youcould actually classify as an

(53:09):
objective sin, because Iguarantee you won't find it.
It just doesn't exist.
Even things that you're like,oh, murdering someone's wrong.
Or there's things that you canbe morally opposed to, but there
is no all out and out sin.
You know, like it just does notexist.

SPEAKER_04 (53:26):
And you quote in your book about darkness.
And I love this quote becauseit's, It's such a powerful
message.
Darkness is not the absence oflight.
It is the medium in which lightexists.
And that is so powerful,especially when people are
thinking of this whole sin idea,this whole darkness, this
descent.

(53:47):
Yeah, it is.
That's powerful because withoutdarkness, light has no matrix to
graft itself to.
Before illumination, darknessholds infinite potential.
Darkness is that void.
It's that creative void.
construct that we can pull fromand create and i and i
appreciate you putting that inthere because it's a reminder

(54:07):
that darkness is not the end itis not the obliteration of light
it is light cannot exist withoutthe darkness and so we have to
take that into account whenwe're working with ourselves
when we're working plants whenwe're working with people when
we're going about our days inthe world like there's always

(54:29):
darkness but where is theopportunity there?
Where's that opportunity forgrowth, for compassion, for
deeper insight?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (54:41):
For some, literally as you guys were like, as y'all
were talking, a vulture justcame, sat here, which we have
vultures in the trees behindthis house.
So it's not like the crazy, butit is crazy that it's sat right
in the window and tapped on theglass.
Oh my gosh.
And I've, I've, I brought afeather from one of these guys.

(55:02):
I'm going to say it's him.
Maybe someone of his friendsprobably.
But I did bring a feather withme on the trip I just came back
from and like connected withvulture pretty deep.
So that was pretty nice.
That

SPEAKER_04 (55:13):
was really cool.
In my tradition, we teach thatvulture is the one that teaches
us to digest.
It teaches us to take in thetoxin and transmute it into
something valuable, somethingthat we can digest.
grow from so because what doesthe vulture do that takes the
the dead thing eats it it takesin the bacteria that our

(55:37):
physiology could not handle andit transmuted into growing
feathers growing their babiesgrowing themselves regeneration
and nutrients so yeah that'sthat's a cool message

SPEAKER_03 (55:52):
i honestly i see vulture as like one of my
favorite spirit teachers becausethey they are one of the very,
very, very, very few animalsthat are carbon positive.
They do more for the environmentby being alive.
Like that just, to me, they'regods on wings.

(56:13):
I mean, I really, really, reallylove them.
So that was really special.
They gave us a little, hello, Isee you.
I like what you're saying here.
And the last thought on the darkgoddesses bit of like, you know,
the shadow.
And there is a reason that allthese dark goddesses are
creatrixes.
They're the ones who createdlife and they're the ones who
are creating from where the wombor the dark.

(56:35):
And that is where we have to goif we want to be creatrixes,
too, if we want to regain thatinspiration that we feel we've
lost.
OK, I have one last question andI promise we're going to let you
go.
You have really cool flyingointment recipes in here, like
anybody interested in flyingointment, even if you're like,
oh, I'm scared to make it.
But like, what is it?
This is a really, really, thisis actually, I'm going to say

(56:55):
it's the best resource I'vefound on flying ointments.
The most practical one and themost in-depth.
Could you tell our audience, youdon't have to give it all away
because I want them to get thisbook, but tell them some of
these improvement techniques,like why you think flying
ointments might not work as goodtoday, as well today as they did
in the past.
Because that was like, I almostlike broke my technology break

(57:19):
to call Leandra about this.

SPEAKER_01 (57:23):
Yeah, that's kind of something that's been an ongoing
investigation andexperimentation.
I think that the medieval flyingointment recipes sort of leave
some important details out orjust sort of assume that we...

(57:44):
know how to do this already.
But through the rules andpractices of modern herbalism,
modern salve making, I think alittle bit of that has kind of
been lost in translation.
So I think that one bigdifference in the efficacy of

(58:06):
medieval flying ointments had todo with the carrier oil or the
fat that the plant material wasbeing infused into.
So typically we see it being inmedieval recipes, some kind of
pork lard or animal fat, whichwhen applied topically is going
to be absorbed much moreeffectively than something that

(58:29):
is vegetable based or wax based.
And if we kind of look at modernherbal formula Modern herbal
formulas, a lot of those salvesare things that are meant to
kind of sit on the skin andtreat things superficially.
You know, they're notnecessarily meant to be absorbed

(58:49):
extremely deeply.
So they'll be for things likemuscle pain or different skin
conditions or healing likescrapes and bruises and things
that exist on the outer layeralready.
So when we're talking aboutabsorption and penetration,
those animal fats, those lipidsare able to get into our skin

(59:11):
much easier.
I also think, and something thatis sort of left out in the
wording, but it also depends onhow you read some of the
medieval recipes is that inmodern western herbalism you
know we're typically makinginfused oils using dry plant

(59:32):
material and kind of shy awayfrom using fresh plant material
because of the concern for forcontamination and shelf life but
i think when it comes toespecially plants in the
nightshade family um you knowfresh plant material is going to
be a little bit differentchemically than dry plant

(59:54):
material.
And then knowing that thealkaloids, the active
constituents in the plants ofthe nightshade family are more
water soluble than they are oilsoluble.
Having that existing watercontent present in the fresh
plant material when we make ourinfused oils or infuse the fresh

(01:00:17):
plant material into pork lard,we're kind of getting that
ability of the water to helptransfer and extract the active
constituents into the carrier alot more effectively than it
would be if it was dry plantmaterial.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:38):
Brilliant.
This is sort of like off, butkind of on the topic.
Pseudo-archaeology, quoteunquote, is like the idea that
we should actually consultmodern day experts.
in order to excavate, like, youknow, history.
Like, for example, if we wereexcavating a potter's shop, we

(01:00:59):
would call it a ceramics artisttoday to, like, see what that
thing might be used for.
And it's calledpseudo-archaeology,
interestingly, becausemainstream archaeologists who
are, it's quite a white man'sclub of privilege and money,
they refuse to consulttradespeople.
They refuse to see that theywould have knowledge of value.
And this just makes me think,like, if...

(01:01:22):
if someone was able to get youin the archeology department of
a medieval, you know, dig, whatwould we have learned more?
Like, you know, like I'm surewe've all, witches tend to have
this experience when we watchlike historical only
documentaries about archeology.
It's always like so limiting.
It's like, these two women werebest friends or, you know, it's
like, there's always somethingwrong.

(01:01:43):
Like they don't see queerpeople.
They don't see women asempowering.
They don't believe the religionwas real.
So they won't consider it.
And it just, it's, it's sofascinating to me that we can be
learning so much more about ourancestors in just, I mean, when
you describe it, it's like, Oh,duh.
But you'd have to be apractitioner to figure those

(01:02:03):
things out.
And yeah, I'm just reallygrateful that you put that in
the poison path grimoire forpeople to, to read.
Cause I've never felt likemaking flying women.
Cause everyone I've talked towas like, eh, it doesn't really
work.
And I'm like, okay, now I'mgoing to make it.
Actually, I was gonna talk toLeandra about that.
Like I was like, I'm gonna gettogether this weekend and like
get some lard and make this

SPEAKER_04 (01:02:24):
ourselves.
Well, and we also have toremember that a lot of these
practices were handed down fromlike master to apprentice.
So there would be nuances thatwouldn't be written down.
They would just be verballyexpressed.
And maybe when they're writingit down, they didn't remember or
they just wanted to admit thatso that they didn't have their
proprietary knowledge out therein the world and it's quite

(01:02:46):
possible.
But yeah, I like that idea ofthe pseudo-archaeology.
Like what else could we learnfrom people who are doing the
practice?

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:54):
What else?
Yeah.
So frustrating.
If anyone's like curious aboutthat rabbit hole, I dive into it
a lot more on Seeking Numenawith Elise Wells solo podcast I
run.
And my favoritepseudo-archaeologist, he's not a
perfect man, but his work ispretty good, is Graham Hancock.
So get Google in if you'reinterested because it is
really...

(01:03:14):
Fascinating stuff.

SPEAKER_04 (01:03:17):
This has been a great conversation.
I

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:20):
know.

SPEAKER_04 (01:03:20):
There's so many more things I want to talk about, but
we could be here for like fourhours and I don't want to do
that to you.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:27):
Yeah, I think I guess the last thing I have to
say is.
Something else that I thinkpeople will be really refreshed
to read about is thevulnerability of the tales you
tell.
Like you give us some directrituals, direct quotes,
experiences, names changed forrespect, but otherwise these are
like verbatim experiences thatyou've had.
And that's so valuable forpeople.

(01:03:48):
And I just wanted to thank youfor being vulnerable enough to
say, okay, I'm going to putthese in there because that's a
hard choice to make as anauthor.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:57):
Yeah, it's my pleasure.
I'm honored too.
And, you know, I want to givepeople things that they can
actually work with and, youknow, not just speaking about
things enigmatically or, youknow, in a way that is
mysterious and enticing andsells a lot of books, but like
very real, you know, like it's athing.

(01:04:20):
It just, it's just a thing.
So...

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:36):
Fantastic.
Thank you so much for

SPEAKER_04 (01:05:01):
joining us.
And tell everybody where theycan find you.
Any festivals or anything thatyou're doing or conferences or
where are you showing up for us?

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:14):
Well, I will be at Convocation in Michigan at the
end of February, presentingthere.
And then I'll also be at SacredSpace Conference in Maryland
towards the end of March.
Okay.
You'll see me there.

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:32):
I'm going to be there too, which is crazy
because I'm never in the U.S.
at that time of year.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:36):
I'll actually be doing my flying ointment
presentation during the deadsleeps, which is kind of like a
deep dive into, you know,picking apart the medieval
recipes and looking at like Thedifferences and also, you know,
some of the non-poisonous andnon-psychoactive ingredients

(01:05:56):
that show up in the recipes andwhat they have in common and the
role that they may have played.
So that's a good

SPEAKER_04 (01:06:04):
one.
Okay, cool.
Well, my talk is on the sacredash.
So creating like sacred firesand using sacred ash in
different ways.
So they kind of, I don't know,they might overlap a little bit
in topic.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:16):
But they do because the ash is actually...
an ingredient in the ointmentthat can help with the
absorption so there's a wholelot of potential there when we
talk about like ashes ofspecific trees and I

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:32):
literally all the incense so I use Dittany of
Crete as like my main communallike herb for this three-day
descent I just did and I keptall the burnt ashes of it
quote-unquote for no reason likemy guides were like Don't forget
the ashes.
And I brought them home and Iactually put them in the freezer
because they stink.
And I was like, that'll be thebest place to keep them until I

(01:06:54):
know what I'm supposed to dowith them.
Yeah.
Sounds like I'm going to knowwhat to do with them

SPEAKER_04 (01:06:58):
now.
You will.
You will.
Yeah.
I have, I don't know if you cansee it.
There's a little tiny green bowlin the back there.
That's where all my ash ends up.
That's my ash bowl.
So I'm excited for this.
Yeah.
We'll see you in March there.
We got to get lunch orsomething.
Yeah, we will.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:15):
Awesome.
You can also follow my workonline at
thepoisonersapothecary.com.
I'm also on social media atPoisoners Apothecary.
And I do have a Patreon that'sfocused on the poison path,
patreon.com slashpoisonersapothecary.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:39):
Awesome.
Exciting.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
This was so good.
Thank

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:47):
you.
Thank you.
I really enjoyed theconversation.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:51):
Keep us posted on all future books because we will
have you back.
Yes.
I want to read them.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:56):
Absolutely.
The third one that I'm justfinishing the first manuscript
for, so it'll probably be like ayear or so before that's
actually out, is the third or...
I don't want to say final, butthe third in the Poison Path
series.
So it's the Poison Path Oracle,divination, spirit

(01:08:17):
communication, and trance work.
So it's all.
Oh, that's so good.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:24):
I'm excited for it already.
So excited.
Yeah.
If you need endorsements orlike, yeah, let us know.
We're here.
I

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:31):
love that.
Thank you.
Awesome.
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:35):
Merry meet.
Merry part.
And marry me again.

SPEAKER_04 (01:08:39):
Thank you for joining us on the Magic Kitchen
Podcast.
Please visit my website,leandrawichwood.com, for news,
information, and more episodes.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:51):
I'm Elise Wells, and I can be found at Seeking Numina
on YouTube, Instagram, andFacebook, and seekingnumina.com.
That's Seeking N-U-M-I-N-A.