September 20, 2023 • 23 mins
In this episode, Mama Judy and I (Jill) are diving deep into the challenges of perfectionism in the realm of creativity. If you’ve struggled with perfectionism, you know it can take serious hold of your creativity and imagination – acting like a brake – stripping away the joy, spontaneity, and natural flow that fuels the artistic spirit.
We talk about the fact that true growth in any art form is a journey, and reaching a point of perceived perfection leaves no room for evolution.
We also touch on the difference between the healthy pursuit of excellence and the stifling weight of setting impossibly high standards, and what that looks like.
And for anyone really struggling with this mental block, Mama Judy and I offer a challenge to you… one we hope will set you free from the constraints of perfectionism.
We hope you enjoy today’s chat!
A few of our past episodes mentioned in this episode:
#11: How to Enrich Your Imagination to Fuel Your Creativity
#8: Art Can Heal Part 1 (Where Mama Judy and I share our stories)
#9: Art Can Heal Part 2: An Interview with Val Vaganek
#15: The Power of Commitment in Your Art Practice: Exploring Dedication, Balance, and Freedom
If you'd prefer to watch this podcast, you can find us over on our YouTube page (The Mama Judy & Jill Podcast).
We'd LOVE to hear from you! Click here to send us your thoughts and ideas for a future episode.
Send us a direct message on Instagram:
>> Mama Judy on Instagram
>>Jill on Instagram
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jill (00:20):
well hi everyone welcome back and hi mama judy Hi, Jill.
How are you?
I'm doing wonderful.
I wanted to jump right into ourtopic today.
Mama Judy and I put out a surveyasking you, the listeners, if
there's any topics that youwould like to have discussed.
And we got a request from Liz.
So Liz, thank you for sendingthis in on the topic of
(00:43):
perfectionism.
Thank
Mama Judy (00:45):
you.
Jill (00:46):
So we are diving into perfectionism today, but first
of all, I wanted to just do acheck in because I know you and
I both have had some fun, timeswith our sons.
Your son, who's in his 50s.
My son, who's in his 20s.
Recently, tell us about yourtime with Dave when you went
searching for things.
Mama Judy (01:05):
Well, I love to do rust dyeing, on fabric and
paper, and I love to use oldwire in my journals.
And I didn't have any with mebecause I'm not at home.
So I coerced him, although itwas very easy to do, to go down
(01:25):
to an old barn close by.
And we found all kinds of wireand items that I can use in
upcoming journals.
And it was so fun to have thatsupport from a
Jill (01:40):
family member.
Yes.
And the picture you posted oneon Instagram.
I think you maybe texted me onetoo, but we're so good.
They were just like artsylooking the photographs
themselves.
Mama Judy (01:52):
Yeah, they were.
I have to admit they were prettygood.
Jill (01:56):
They were pretty good.
Well, good.
And so let's just dive right in.
Yes.
Mama Judy (02:01):
They were pretty good, but they weren't perfect.
Oh,
Jill (02:06):
way to transition and meld everything in together.
You are good.
So I'm going to read I justwrote down a short definition of
perfectionism for us to kind ofstart by so you tell me if you
believe differently but I wrotedown perfectionism is the
pursuit of flawlessness.
And it's when you setunrealistic expectations, you
(02:29):
have fear of failure, and youare overwhelmed with critical
self evaluation.
Mama Judy (02:36):
Absolutely.
Everything, everything you saidon that, I would have said
myself.
And perfectionism is somethingthat at some level.
In some degree, we all probablystruggle with a little bit.
And so, we have to acknowledgethat it's something that's very
(02:57):
common.
But we're really talking aboutperfectionism.
I think we are at the level thatit inhibits your life or your
growth in your art.
Jill (03:09):
And we see it ourselves, or you hear stories about this,
how people are being stifled intheir artistic expression
because they're allowingperfectionism to take over to
some degree.
Mama Judy (03:24):
If anybody listened to our podcast on trauma and
pain and art, they will knowfrom my background that I was
married to an abusive man.
Well, that also trickles down tothe children, whether you
realize it or not.
And so, I have my, my one son,David, Is a perfectionist, and
(03:53):
so I've read a lot onperfectionism in that it can
come from an overcriticalparent.
You want to be perfect for thatperson.
I'm not saying that's always thecase, but I think a lot of what
we deal with, Stems fromchildhood.
(04:14):
And so perfectionism again isone of those things that if you
can look at yourself and say,Yeah, I do harbor that need to
be perfect and understand whyit'll help release the negative
effects of perfectionism.
(04:35):
By the way, I'm not I'm not aperfect.
I'm probably a little bit tooloosey goosey.
I could be a little moreperfect.
Jill (04:44):
Yeah.
Uh, yeah.
I don't have that problem withart either.
but tell me, has David, your sonHe is a very artistic person as
well.
Has he done anything to helphimself overcome that
Perfectionism.
And if he has, what has thatlook like?
Mama Judy (05:01):
You know, I don't know.
We've talked about it, ofcourse, many times and he's
aware of it.
So I'm sure he is working on it.
Uh, but it's pretty ingrained.
and you know, the other thingis, I don't want to make it
sound like everybody that.
Strives for perfection is,suffering from something because
(05:21):
there are personalities and Ithink partly, David's is also
one wants things to be preciseand, and perfect.
So it's kind of a combo.
But if I could just interjectsomething about perfectionism
and the seeking of flawlessnessthat comes from an example way
(05:47):
outside of art, and that was infamily therapy.
for another family member andher therapist told her, do you
realize that perfect because shethought perfectionism was a good
thing.
Perfectionism set you andeverybody else up for failure.
(06:12):
And to me, that's a reallypowerful statement on
perfectionism and just like yourdefinition, we're looking for
flawless.
Even Mother Nature is notflawless.
And so when you are looking forperfectionism, you have such
(06:33):
high goals.
Probably, you're never going tobe able to attain them.
Every time you don't attainthem, you set yourself up for
failure and fed into the cycleof feeling bad about yourself,
about your art, not being ableto enjoy the process.
(06:54):
Right.
Because is that
Jill (06:56):
also because you are so focused, more focused on the
outcome than the process?
If you're striving for thatperfection,
Mama Judy (07:03):
would you say?
Yes, I would say you are.
You're and and again, Jill, Ilike to differentiate that we're
not talking about Wanting to getbetter and better in whatever
you're pursuing we're talkingabout perfectionism that Sets
those standards so high youcan't reach them because that's
(07:28):
debilitating to the artist, tothe imagination, to just the
human being, And so you can havehigh standards and, and work
towards a goal.
Notice my little fingers goingup the ladder of the goal.
But not to the point that whenyou don't achieve the goal, it
(07:54):
ruins your day, it ruins how youview your art, it ruins how you
look at your life.
That's a type of perfectionismthat often shows up that we want
to move away from.
Jill (08:10):
Right, and another bad thing about striving for
perfection is that in many casesit's going to block your
creativity.
It will actually block it.
And so you think you're workingtowards this perfect scenario
and then you become completelyblocked because it's so stifling
to you.
Mama Judy (08:29):
Yes, it really is.
You think about the imaginationand in the past we've talked
about ways to enhance yourimagination, use it.
And that was all we alwaysmentioned free flowing things.
The imagination needs to be freeflowing.
(08:49):
And when you start saying to itat the beginning, this has to be
perfect.
Well, it's like putting thebrakes on.
Right.
Just like, you know, you'vetaken all the spontaneity away.
You've taken the
Jill (09:04):
fun away.
Right.
And another thing, striving forperfection does is it slows the
entire process down.
So if you keep going back tomake sure it's perfect and you
keep going back, you're nevergoing to finish something.
And it's nice to finishsomething when you finish a
journal or I finish a littlestitch piece.
It's fun to accomplish that andthen move on to the next thing.
(09:26):
But perfectionists get reallyslowed down in that process
where they just keep going backto it, back to it, back to it.
So Sometimes nothing getsaccomplished because I wrote
this quote down by SalvadorDali.
Yes, he says, have no fear ofperfection, you'll never reach
it.
Have no fear of perfection,you'll never reach it.
(09:47):
That's
Mama Judy (09:47):
right, we won't.
I'm going to continue to try toget better, but I'm not going to
try to be perfect.
Yes, yes.
If it was possible to be perfectin your art, you have nowhere to
go from that point on, there isno growth.
Ooh, that's a good way to lookat it.
(10:09):
You don't.
That's why all the exercises,the, the commitment that we
talked about in one of theepisodes, to show up to do it,
to get better, to learn thetechniques, to allow your
imagination.
free range.
that's what it's all about.
It's not making one perfectthing and then quitting because
(10:34):
that's what would happen.
Right.
If you've reached the pinnacle,where else do
Jill (10:40):
you go?
And how
Mama Judy (10:41):
boring would that be?
Oh, it'd be so boring.
There are even movies out thereabout, what it would be like if
every day of your life wasexactly the same way.
Humans don't want that.
Right.
so how do you get rid ofperfectionism?
Do you have an idea?
(11:01):
I have
Jill (11:02):
some thoughts.
Well, the first thought thatcomes to mind for me is in my
writing so professionally I'm awriter.
And so, this has, I, I fixed it.
I hope it doesn't come backagain but I did fix it and it
took a couple years to come upwith this but I would begin
working on projects and I justkept going back and going back
(11:24):
because it wasn't right and Iwould rewrite this sentence and.
Rearrange this wording And Iwould look at it maybe at the
end of the day and go, okay,that feels really good.
Come back to the next day, makemore changes.
And it, it just could have beenan ongoing thing.
Cause I kept feeling like it'sgot to be perfect and I can make
it better.
I thought I could make itbetter, which you can in some
cases, but I realized that itwas great when I got to a
(11:48):
certain point and I just neededto stop.
So what I do now is I havefigured out what.
You know, how much does thistask take me to do generally?
How much does this task take meto do?
And I put myself on a timer.
And if I'm going to take, youknow, 10 hours total to write,
something, I mark down the timesI'm working.
And then as I'm approaching thattime, I'm realizing, all right,
(12:09):
I'm about to wrap this up.
And it's not going to beperfect, but it's going to be
good because I put my best intoit and moved on.
So I think that is one thingthat helps is to putting some
sort of time constraints.
I know that sounds constraining,but in some people need that.
Mama Judy (12:26):
Yes, because that focuses you.
Oh God, I've only got 20 minutesto do this.
So, but out of all that.
the thing I liked the most thatyou said was you told yourself
it's not perfect, but it's goodenough.
(12:47):
And when I say that, and I'vedone that in my art over the
years.
It's not perfect, but it's goodenough.
It's good enough for that pointin time because I might go on at
some later time and try toimprove on that technique, But
I'm giving myself permission tobe imperfect, to be perfectly
(13:15):
imperfect.
Yes, we're all perfectlyimperfect, in Japan and in the
art and in the culture.
They leave a crack to show thatnothing is perfect.
A lot of Native Americancultures and their art,
especially their beading, and weall know how fantastic the
(13:39):
beading of a breastplate or acomplete outfit was.
They left one broken beat.
Oh, wow.
Because with the idea thatnothing is perfect.
And I love that.
Allow yourself the freedom toleave a flaw in your work.
(14:06):
Nobody will probably ever knowthat it's there or that you
consider it a flaw.
But you know, it's there, butyou're giving yourself
permission.
You're acknowledging I'm okay.
Having a little flaw when I wasyounger and I used to go to home
(14:27):
at classes, which I don't eventhink they have anymore.
You were always taught everystitch had to be exactly the
same length.
And I found that soconstraining.
And I would get to the pointwhere I didn't care what the
instructor was.
(14:47):
In fact, I never got an A inHome Ec because my stitches
weren't perfect.
And if you think of theabsurdity of trying to teach
someone to be perfect, Everystitch must be exactly the same.
Would you show up to that kindof a class if you knew that's
(15:08):
what was required?
I'm not.
I want a little wonky in mine.
I want a little humanness in myart.
I want to know that yes, I'vetried my best at this point,
because remember everything'sabout a point in time.
A year from now it might betotally different.
(15:30):
But I'm okay with that rightnow.
I don't have to be perfect.
Jill (15:37):
Right.
And another thing to thinkabout, you mentioned the wonky,
you know, art or wonky stitches,is if you're prone to
perfectionism, I wonder if thiswould work.
If you decide I am prone toperfectionism.
So I'm not, I, I'm going to tryto do messy art.
I'm going to actually put myselfin the position where I'm
committing myself to do messyart for a while, where, or
(16:00):
intuitive art.
Cause a lot of my stitching isintuitive and that is all about
a long stitch, a short stitch, alittle cross stitch here, a
little knot is accidentallymade.
Go ahead and leave it.
You just keep going and you donot pull the stitches out to fix
anything.
And so that would be a goodexercise.
It's a perfect
Mama Judy (16:19):
exercise on perfectionism.
And in fact, I would challengeanybody out there that does have
that problem.
Try that.
Maybe do a timer where you justgive yourself 20 minutes.
And you make the messiest artthat you can and then walk away.
(16:42):
Do not turn around and go backand say, Oh, but I have to fix
this.
I think personally and from whatI've read.
That a lot of perfectionism isabout fear of failure, and,
there probably isn't a human outthere that at some point in
(17:03):
their life hasn't had thosethoughts about failing.
And we have to know it's okay tofail once in a while too.
That's how we learn.
And so if you're aperfectionist, you are not
allowing yourself to learn andgrow.
Well, speaking of
Jill (17:23):
perfectionism,
Mama Judy (17:24):
We are going to keep recording
Jill (17:26):
this podcast, even though we're mama Judy is right now,
I'm hearing drills hammering.
So if you're listening, we'regoing to embrace how perfectly
imperfect we are.
And if you hear the banging,just go with the flow, please.
It's humorous.
Mama Judy (17:45):
That's right.
Um, yes.
Thank you, Jill.
We bring imperfection to ourperfect podcast.
Jill (17:53):
I think it's the perfect thing that happened.
It is.
It was encrypted.
Trust us.
It wasn't scripted.
Well, and also I would like toread a quote from Brene Brown
because, and this harkens backto episode eight and nine, which
you mentioned before too, whatwe talked about how to use art
is healing because she, shetalks a little bit about how,
(18:17):
what happens with your mentalwellness.
So let me just read this quote.
So Brene Brown says,Understanding the difference
between healthy striving andperfectionism is critical to
laying down the shield andpicking up your life.
Research shows perfectionismhampers success.
(18:37):
In fact, it's often the path todepression, anxiety, addiction,
and life paralysis.
Mama Judy (18:45):
I, you know, I couldn't agree with her more
from.
What I've read in other books,what I have come across in
people I know, um, I mentioned afamily member that the therapist
said you're setting yourself andeverybody up for failure.
Um, she has embracedimperfectionism, and it's
(19:09):
brought.
a sense of freedom in her life.
It can do the same in our art,as we have already said.
She used to think perfectionismwas what you were supposed to
be, and we're not.
We're not perfect.
(19:29):
In my family, as Jill knows, I'mconsidered a squiggle.
Squiggles aren't perfect.
They stop far short of that, butI love it because I don't worry
about something being perfect.
I don't want it to be perfect.
(19:50):
I want to.
Go back to what we said in oneof our earlier podcasts can I
constant and never endingimprovement if I'm perfect, I
can't improve right.
And I think to just the selfawareness piece like you
(20:11):
mentioned earlier, especially ifit was brought on by parental.
Jill (20:17):
criticism, that is something that's hard to get
past.
So this is where you're going tobe a work in progress.
If you're trying to becomeperfectly imperfect and perfect
work in progress because it'snot just like, okay, I just
listened to the podcast episode.
And we're good to go.
I'm not going to be aperfectionist any longer.
It's not that easy.
(20:38):
So, I think it is a process.
So we'd need to acknowledge thatbecause there are going to be
some people that had parents atvery high levels of being,
critical of them.
And so they're going to need tobe working through that.
Okay,
Mama Judy (20:53):
if you're on YouTube, you know that I'm moving.
I just wanted to get a littlebit away from the noise.
I was afraid it was interfering,so I moved away from it.
Anyway, we are not perfect.
Remember to leave a flaw in youryou are less.
(21:18):
It just means that like the restof us,
Jill (21:22):
you're perfectly imperfect.
also, one other exercise Ithought, for someone that's
thinking, okay, what else couldI do besides doing intuitive
art, just getting messy with it?
You do something where you useyour non dominant hand.
Yeah.
Draw a cat or a horse orsomething.
And that is something thatyou're not going to be perfect
(21:42):
with that, but to try drawingwith your non dominant hands
you're not going to put any sortof perfectionistic goals on that
for sure, because you can't.
Mama Judy (21:52):
That is right.
And it is a fun exercise.
And what you might find if youtry that enough is you find
yourself feeling good aboutbeing
Jill (22:06):
Yes.
Well, I hope this is helpful tosomeone.
It's a journey people.
It is, you know that and giveyourself some grace as well.
I think that's important.
Don't beat yourself up and justkeep creating and also being, I
think in supportive communitywith other people that see the
(22:27):
art for what it is.
I can imagine some peopleshowing a piece of art to
someone that doesn't reallyappreciate art and maybe they
would.
Be critical of it or somethinglike that.
Well, then don't show it tothose people.
Keep it to yourself or share itwith people that can appreciate
it and love it for what it isin, that it's not perfect and
it's not ever going to be.
Mama Judy (22:45):
You can share it with us.
We love imperfect art.
We love imperfect people.
We do.
Jill (22:53):
All right, Mama Judy, I love you.
This is fun.
Mama Judy (22:56):
Yes, it is great for my
Jill (22:58):
soul.
Me too.
All right.
We'll talk to you next week.
Mama Judy (23:02):
All right.
Love you.
Love you everyone.
Jill (23:05):
Thanks for listening.
Bye.
well hi everyone welcome back and hi mama judy Hi, Jill.
How are you?
I'm doing wonderful.
I wanted to jump right into ourtopic today.
Mama Judy and I put out a surveyasking you, the listeners, if
there's any topics that youwould like to have discussed.
And we got a request from Liz.
So Liz, thank you for sendingthis in on the topic of
(00:43):
perfectionism.
Thank
Mama Judy (00:45):
you.
Jill (00:46):
So we are diving into perfectionism today, but first
of all, I wanted to just do acheck in because I know you and
I both have had some fun, timeswith our sons.
Your son, who's in his 50s.
My son, who's in his 20s.
Recently, tell us about yourtime with Dave when you went
searching for things.
Mama Judy (01:05):
Well, I love to do rust dyeing, on fabric and
paper, and I love to use oldwire in my journals.
And I didn't have any with mebecause I'm not at home.
So I coerced him, although itwas very easy to do, to go down
(01:25):
to an old barn close by.
And we found all kinds of wireand items that I can use in
upcoming journals.
And it was so fun to have thatsupport from a
Jill (01:40):
family member.
Yes.
And the picture you posted oneon Instagram.
I think you maybe texted me onetoo, but we're so good.
They were just like artsylooking the photographs
themselves.
Mama Judy (01:52):
Yeah, they were.
I have to admit they were prettygood.
Jill (01:56):
They were pretty good.
Well, good.
And so let's just dive right in.
Yes.
Mama Judy (02:01):
They were pretty good, but they weren't perfect.
Oh,
Jill (02:06):
way to transition and meld everything in together.
You are good.
So I'm going to read I justwrote down a short definition of
perfectionism for us to kind ofstart by so you tell me if you
believe differently but I wrotedown perfectionism is the
pursuit of flawlessness.
And it's when you setunrealistic expectations, you
(02:29):
have fear of failure, and youare overwhelmed with critical
self evaluation.
Mama Judy (02:36):
Absolutely.
Everything, everything you saidon that, I would have said
myself.
And perfectionism is somethingthat at some level.
In some degree, we all probablystruggle with a little bit.
And so, we have to acknowledgethat it's something that's very
(02:57):
common.
But we're really talking aboutperfectionism.
I think we are at the level thatit inhibits your life or your
growth in your art.
Jill (03:09):
And we see it ourselves, or you hear stories about this,
how people are being stifled intheir artistic expression
because they're allowingperfectionism to take over to
some degree.
Mama Judy (03:24):
If anybody listened to our podcast on trauma and
pain and art, they will knowfrom my background that I was
married to an abusive man.
Well, that also trickles down tothe children, whether you
realize it or not.
And so, I have my, my one son,David, Is a perfectionist, and
(03:53):
so I've read a lot onperfectionism in that it can
come from an overcriticalparent.
You want to be perfect for thatperson.
I'm not saying that's always thecase, but I think a lot of what
we deal with, Stems fromchildhood.
(04:14):
And so perfectionism again isone of those things that if you
can look at yourself and say,Yeah, I do harbor that need to
be perfect and understand whyit'll help release the negative
effects of perfectionism.
(04:35):
By the way, I'm not I'm not aperfect.
I'm probably a little bit tooloosey goosey.
I could be a little moreperfect.
Jill (04:44):
Yeah.
Uh, yeah.
I don't have that problem withart either.
but tell me, has David, your sonHe is a very artistic person as
well.
Has he done anything to helphimself overcome that
Perfectionism.
And if he has, what has thatlook like?
Mama Judy (05:01):
You know, I don't know.
We've talked about it, ofcourse, many times and he's
aware of it.
So I'm sure he is working on it.
Uh, but it's pretty ingrained.
and you know, the other thingis, I don't want to make it
sound like everybody that.
Strives for perfection is,suffering from something because
(05:21):
there are personalities and Ithink partly, David's is also
one wants things to be preciseand, and perfect.
So it's kind of a combo.
But if I could just interjectsomething about perfectionism
and the seeking of flawlessnessthat comes from an example way
(05:47):
outside of art, and that was infamily therapy.
for another family member andher therapist told her, do you
realize that perfect because shethought perfectionism was a good
thing.
Perfectionism set you andeverybody else up for failure.
(06:12):
And to me, that's a reallypowerful statement on
perfectionism and just like yourdefinition, we're looking for
flawless.
Even Mother Nature is notflawless.
And so when you are looking forperfectionism, you have such
(06:33):
high goals.
Probably, you're never going tobe able to attain them.
Every time you don't attainthem, you set yourself up for
failure and fed into the cycleof feeling bad about yourself,
about your art, not being ableto enjoy the process.
(06:54):
Right.
Because is that
Jill (06:56):
also because you are so focused, more focused on the
outcome than the process?
If you're striving for thatperfection,
Mama Judy (07:03):
would you say?
Yes, I would say you are.
You're and and again, Jill, Ilike to differentiate that we're
not talking about Wanting to getbetter and better in whatever
you're pursuing we're talkingabout perfectionism that Sets
those standards so high youcan't reach them because that's
(07:28):
debilitating to the artist, tothe imagination, to just the
human being, And so you can havehigh standards and, and work
towards a goal.
Notice my little fingers goingup the ladder of the goal.
But not to the point that whenyou don't achieve the goal, it
(07:54):
ruins your day, it ruins how youview your art, it ruins how you
look at your life.
That's a type of perfectionismthat often shows up that we want
to move away from.
Jill (08:10):
Right, and another bad thing about striving for
perfection is that in many casesit's going to block your
creativity.
It will actually block it.
And so you think you're workingtowards this perfect scenario
and then you become completelyblocked because it's so stifling
to you.
Mama Judy (08:29):
Yes, it really is.
You think about the imaginationand in the past we've talked
about ways to enhance yourimagination, use it.
And that was all we alwaysmentioned free flowing things.
The imagination needs to be freeflowing.
(08:49):
And when you start saying to itat the beginning, this has to be
perfect.
Well, it's like putting thebrakes on.
Right.
Just like, you know, you'vetaken all the spontaneity away.
You've taken the
Jill (09:04):
fun away.
Right.
And another thing, striving forperfection does is it slows the
entire process down.
So if you keep going back tomake sure it's perfect and you
keep going back, you're nevergoing to finish something.
And it's nice to finishsomething when you finish a
journal or I finish a littlestitch piece.
It's fun to accomplish that andthen move on to the next thing.
(09:26):
But perfectionists get reallyslowed down in that process
where they just keep going backto it, back to it, back to it.
So Sometimes nothing getsaccomplished because I wrote
this quote down by SalvadorDali.
Yes, he says, have no fear ofperfection, you'll never reach
it.
Have no fear of perfection,you'll never reach it.
(09:47):
That's
Mama Judy (09:47):
right, we won't.
I'm going to continue to try toget better, but I'm not going to
try to be perfect.
Yes, yes.
If it was possible to be perfectin your art, you have nowhere to
go from that point on, there isno growth.
Ooh, that's a good way to lookat it.
(10:09):
You don't.
That's why all the exercises,the, the commitment that we
talked about in one of theepisodes, to show up to do it,
to get better, to learn thetechniques, to allow your
imagination.
free range.
that's what it's all about.
It's not making one perfectthing and then quitting because
(10:34):
that's what would happen.
Right.
If you've reached the pinnacle,where else do
Jill (10:40):
you go?
And how
Mama Judy (10:41):
boring would that be?
Oh, it'd be so boring.
There are even movies out thereabout, what it would be like if
every day of your life wasexactly the same way.
Humans don't want that.
Right.
so how do you get rid ofperfectionism?
Do you have an idea?
(11:01):
I have
Jill (11:02):
some thoughts.
Well, the first thought thatcomes to mind for me is in my
writing so professionally I'm awriter.
And so, this has, I, I fixed it.
I hope it doesn't come backagain but I did fix it and it
took a couple years to come upwith this but I would begin
working on projects and I justkept going back and going back
(11:24):
because it wasn't right and Iwould rewrite this sentence and.
Rearrange this wording And Iwould look at it maybe at the
end of the day and go, okay,that feels really good.
Come back to the next day, makemore changes.
And it, it just could have beenan ongoing thing.
Cause I kept feeling like it'sgot to be perfect and I can make
it better.
I thought I could make itbetter, which you can in some
cases, but I realized that itwas great when I got to a
(11:48):
certain point and I just neededto stop.
So what I do now is I havefigured out what.
You know, how much does thistask take me to do generally?
How much does this task take meto do?
And I put myself on a timer.
And if I'm going to take, youknow, 10 hours total to write,
something, I mark down the timesI'm working.
And then as I'm approaching thattime, I'm realizing, all right,
(12:09):
I'm about to wrap this up.
And it's not going to beperfect, but it's going to be
good because I put my best intoit and moved on.
So I think that is one thingthat helps is to putting some
sort of time constraints.
I know that sounds constraining,but in some people need that.
Mama Judy (12:26):
Yes, because that focuses you.
Oh God, I've only got 20 minutesto do this.
So, but out of all that.
the thing I liked the most thatyou said was you told yourself
it's not perfect, but it's goodenough.
(12:47):
And when I say that, and I'vedone that in my art over the
years.
It's not perfect, but it's goodenough.
It's good enough for that pointin time because I might go on at
some later time and try toimprove on that technique, But
I'm giving myself permission tobe imperfect, to be perfectly
(13:15):
imperfect.
Yes, we're all perfectlyimperfect, in Japan and in the
art and in the culture.
They leave a crack to show thatnothing is perfect.
A lot of Native Americancultures and their art,
especially their beading, and weall know how fantastic the
(13:39):
beading of a breastplate or acomplete outfit was.
They left one broken beat.
Oh, wow.
Because with the idea thatnothing is perfect.
And I love that.
Allow yourself the freedom toleave a flaw in your work.
(14:06):
Nobody will probably ever knowthat it's there or that you
consider it a flaw.
But you know, it's there, butyou're giving yourself
permission.
You're acknowledging I'm okay.
Having a little flaw when I wasyounger and I used to go to home
(14:27):
at classes, which I don't eventhink they have anymore.
You were always taught everystitch had to be exactly the
same length.
And I found that soconstraining.
And I would get to the pointwhere I didn't care what the
instructor was.
(14:47):
In fact, I never got an A inHome Ec because my stitches
weren't perfect.
And if you think of theabsurdity of trying to teach
someone to be perfect, Everystitch must be exactly the same.
Would you show up to that kindof a class if you knew that's
(15:08):
what was required?
I'm not.
I want a little wonky in mine.
I want a little humanness in myart.
I want to know that yes, I'vetried my best at this point,
because remember everything'sabout a point in time.
A year from now it might betotally different.
(15:30):
But I'm okay with that rightnow.
I don't have to be perfect.
Jill (15:37):
Right.
And another thing to thinkabout, you mentioned the wonky,
you know, art or wonky stitches,is if you're prone to
perfectionism, I wonder if thiswould work.
If you decide I am prone toperfectionism.
So I'm not, I, I'm going to tryto do messy art.
I'm going to actually put myselfin the position where I'm
committing myself to do messyart for a while, where, or
(16:00):
intuitive art.
Cause a lot of my stitching isintuitive and that is all about
a long stitch, a short stitch, alittle cross stitch here, a
little knot is accidentallymade.
Go ahead and leave it.
You just keep going and you donot pull the stitches out to fix
anything.
And so that would be a goodexercise.
It's a perfect
Mama Judy (16:19):
exercise on perfectionism.
And in fact, I would challengeanybody out there that does have
that problem.
Try that.
Maybe do a timer where you justgive yourself 20 minutes.
And you make the messiest artthat you can and then walk away.
(16:42):
Do not turn around and go backand say, Oh, but I have to fix
this.
I think personally and from whatI've read.
That a lot of perfectionism isabout fear of failure, and,
there probably isn't a human outthere that at some point in
(17:03):
their life hasn't had thosethoughts about failing.
And we have to know it's okay tofail once in a while too.
That's how we learn.
And so if you're aperfectionist, you are not
allowing yourself to learn andgrow.
Well, speaking of
Jill (17:23):
perfectionism,
Mama Judy (17:24):
We are going to keep recording
Jill (17:26):
this podcast, even though we're mama Judy is right now,
I'm hearing drills hammering.
So if you're listening, we'regoing to embrace how perfectly
imperfect we are.
And if you hear the banging,just go with the flow, please.
It's humorous.
Mama Judy (17:45):
That's right.
Um, yes.
Thank you, Jill.
We bring imperfection to ourperfect podcast.
Jill (17:53):
I think it's the perfect thing that happened.
It is.
It was encrypted.
Trust us.
It wasn't scripted.
Well, and also I would like toread a quote from Brene Brown
because, and this harkens backto episode eight and nine, which
you mentioned before too, whatwe talked about how to use art
is healing because she, shetalks a little bit about how,
(18:17):
what happens with your mentalwellness.
So let me just read this quote.
So Brene Brown says,Understanding the difference
between healthy striving andperfectionism is critical to
laying down the shield andpicking up your life.
Research shows perfectionismhampers success.
(18:37):
In fact, it's often the path todepression, anxiety, addiction,
and life paralysis.
Mama Judy (18:45):
I, you know, I couldn't agree with her more
from.
What I've read in other books,what I have come across in
people I know, um, I mentioned afamily member that the therapist
said you're setting yourself andeverybody up for failure.
Um, she has embracedimperfectionism, and it's
(19:09):
brought.
a sense of freedom in her life.
It can do the same in our art,as we have already said.
She used to think perfectionismwas what you were supposed to
be, and we're not.
We're not perfect.
(19:29):
In my family, as Jill knows, I'mconsidered a squiggle.
Squiggles aren't perfect.
They stop far short of that, butI love it because I don't worry
about something being perfect.
I don't want it to be perfect.
(19:50):
I want to.
Go back to what we said in oneof our earlier podcasts can I
constant and never endingimprovement if I'm perfect, I
can't improve right.
And I think to just the selfawareness piece like you
(20:11):
mentioned earlier, especially ifit was brought on by parental.
Jill (20:17):
criticism, that is something that's hard to get
past.
So this is where you're going tobe a work in progress.
If you're trying to becomeperfectly imperfect and perfect
work in progress because it'snot just like, okay, I just
listened to the podcast episode.
And we're good to go.
I'm not going to be aperfectionist any longer.
It's not that easy.
(20:38):
So, I think it is a process.
So we'd need to acknowledge thatbecause there are going to be
some people that had parents atvery high levels of being,
critical of them.
And so they're going to need tobe working through that.
Okay,
Mama Judy (20:53):
if you're on YouTube, you know that I'm moving.
I just wanted to get a littlebit away from the noise.
I was afraid it was interfering,so I moved away from it.
Anyway, we are not perfect.
Remember to leave a flaw in youryou are less.
(21:18):
It just means that like the restof us,
Jill (21:22):
you're perfectly imperfect.
also, one other exercise Ithought, for someone that's
thinking, okay, what else couldI do besides doing intuitive
art, just getting messy with it?
You do something where you useyour non dominant hand.
Yeah.
Draw a cat or a horse orsomething.
And that is something thatyou're not going to be perfect
(21:42):
with that, but to try drawingwith your non dominant hands
you're not going to put any sortof perfectionistic goals on that
for sure, because you can't.
Mama Judy (21:52):
That is right.
And it is a fun exercise.
And what you might find if youtry that enough is you find
yourself feeling good aboutbeing
Jill (22:06):
Yes.
Well, I hope this is helpful tosomeone.
It's a journey people.
It is, you know that and giveyourself some grace as well.
I think that's important.
Don't beat yourself up and justkeep creating and also being, I
think in supportive communitywith other people that see the
(22:27):
art for what it is.
I can imagine some peopleshowing a piece of art to
someone that doesn't reallyappreciate art and maybe they
would.
Be critical of it or somethinglike that.
Well, then don't show it tothose people.
Keep it to yourself or share itwith people that can appreciate
it and love it for what it isin, that it's not perfect and
it's not ever going to be.
Mama Judy (22:45):
You can share it with us.
We love imperfect art.
We love imperfect people.
We do.
Jill (22:53):
All right, Mama Judy, I love you.
This is fun.
Mama Judy (22:56):
Yes, it is great for my
Jill (22:58):
soul.
Me too.
All right.
We'll talk to you next week.
Mama Judy (23:02):
All right.
Love you.
Love you everyone.
Jill (23:05):
Thanks for listening.
Bye.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.