January 16, 2025 • 44 mins
Laughing Through FOPO: New Year's Shenanigans, Dry January & Mental Wellness
Welcome to 'The Mental Funny Bone!' Sarah and Chris bring you a lively chat about New Year's Eve celebrations, Dry January challenges, and the madness of watching new TV shows too late into the night. They share hilarious family anecdotes, like ‘The Holdup Game,’ tales of beer-fetching races, and more funny stories about growing up with Jumbo. On a serious note, they delve into FOPO (fear of other people's opinions) and how it impacts their lives and mental health. They discuss identity, resilience, and learning from failures, all while maintaining a perfect blend of humor and heartfelt moments. Tune in for tons of laughs and introspective insights into navigating life’s chaotic mess.
00:00 Welcome to the Mental Funny Bone
00:22 New Year's Eve Recap
00:48 Dry January Plans
02:11 TV Show Binge-Watching
08:02 Fan Mail Appreciation
09:38 Jumbo Parenting Stories
16:31 Mental Wellness Discussion
19:17 Sweaty Feet and Nostalgia
19:55 Exploring Performance-Based Identity
21:15 Defining Identity Beyond Performance
23:01 The Impact of External Validation
25:43 Learning from Failures
28:41 Purpose-Driven Identity
32:16 Personal Reflections and Growth
41:44 Conclusion and Next Steps
How to find mental health help when you're struggling. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists
https://washingtoncountyhumanservices.com/agencies/behavioral-health-developmental-services
https://www.alleghenycounty.us/Services/Human-Services-DHS/Publications/Resource-Guides
Apps - Just search mental health where you get your apps.
EAP programs are a great place to look for help!!
Additional Resources (Sports Related):
https://globalsportmatters.com/health/2020/12/04/mental-health-resources-2/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sarah (00:02):
Hi, welcome to the mental funny bone.
I'm Sarah.
She's Chris.
We are not mental healthprofessionals, but we'll talk
about some fun mental healthstuff.
I don't know if fun and mentalhealth stuff goes, whatever.
But if you do need seriousmental health assistance, please
dial 988 or go to our show notesand click on one of those links.
Chris (00:22):
New Year's Eve.
How was your, how was your NewYear's Eve?
Sarah (00:25):
Freaking wonderful.
It was fantastic.
I was up until 3am actually.
This is after looking at mywatch and going, it's eight
o'clock.
There's no fucking way I'mmaking it till midnight.
Then I ended up being awakeuntil 3am and even better.
I was not even hung overyesterday.
Chris (00:42):
That is a, that is amazing.
Sarah (00:43):
I was able to get up and clean the house after our party.
Cause we hosted, and it was fun.
And now we are into January, andyou know what January is for me?
Chris (00:52):
Dry January.
Sarah (00:53):
Dry January! My liver's doing a little dance, like, and
then like that part of my brainthat really likes the booze is
like, what the fuck?
What if they have Pepsi?
Chris (01:02):
What if they have Pepsi?
Sarah (01:03):
Cause normally I say, do you have Pepsi or Coke?
And if they say Pepsi, I say,okay, I'll have a Miller Lite.
Chris (01:09):
There's a thing on Facebook where there's a girl
who tries to order an applejuice and they don't have it.
And she's like, fine, I'll havea Bloody Mary.
Right.
Sarah (01:16):
Exactly.
We'll see how it goes.
But, uh, I'm actually excitedabout Dry January.
Chris (01:21):
Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give it a try this year.
It will have sort of minimalimpact.
Cause I'm not traveling a wholelot, but um, there are like two
trips where I'm possibly goingto meet clients while I'm in
Raleigh.
So there's, I think that wouldbe the big challenge for me.
Sarah (01:40):
That's actually why I did not do Dry January last year
because we had a big, I mean,but I only travel once a year.
I mean, this year we weren'tinvited, uh, so I dodged that
bullet.
But last year, bless you, lastyear, that is why, um, that's
why I didn't do dry Januarybecause we were traveling and I,
(02:01):
I didn't want to not drink.
Chris (02:03):
We'll see how it goes.
Sarah (02:05):
So there you go.
How was your New Year's?
Chris (02:09):
It was, it was good.
I'm trying to remember what Idid.
David and I started watching anew series, right, called, uh,
Landman, Landman.
Sarah (02:18):
I feel like that's something I don't want to watch.
Chris (02:21):
It, like, I thought it was a superhero thing, but it's
not.
Sarah (02:25):
I just see, like, uh, you know what I, comes into my head
as Groot.
Chris (02:29):
No, no, it wasn't.
It's not even, it's not evensuperhero related.
Sarah (02:33):
No, not as a superhero, but like Landman, like a guy who
looks like Groot.
Talking about how he survivesoff of the land.
Chris (02:40):
No, no, not like, not like that at all.
It's a, uh, it's the, anyway,it's got Billy Bob, Billy Bob
Thornton.
Um, he's so good in it thatthere are parts where I laughed
out loud.
And that hardly ever happens ina TV show.
Somebody also gets horriblyinjured every episode.
Sarah (02:59):
Nope.
We'll not watch it.
We'll absolutely that's a thatis a hard stop.
Hard stop.
Chris (03:05):
It is about oil fields in Texas.
Also, Jon Hamm is in it, and Iam a
Sarah (03:12):
I like Jon Hamm.
I
Chris (03:13):
do too.
Sarah (03:14):
I feel I'm
Chris (03:15):
Jon Hamm and uh, Billy Bob Thornton and it yeah, it's
just it's just crazy.
Just a crazy, crazy show.
There's ten episodes.
I think we did like six in onenight and David always has to be
the distributor of the episodescause I'll just watch all ten
and not go to bed.
Yeah,
Sarah (03:31):
that's how I am too.
Chris (03:32):
So he's like, we're gonna stop after this one.
And I'm like, well,
Sarah (03:36):
I mean, I say that before every episode, like once we get
to nine o'clock, I'm like, yeah,we're gonna, we're done.
We're done after this one.
Chris (03:41):
And
Sarah (03:42):
then like, ah, it's only 10 o'clock.
It's fine.
One more.
It's only 11.
It's fine.
We can get one more in there.
One more.
Like normal adults don't go tobed until after the news anyway.
Okay.
So we can, that's always my, butit's still, it's then I'm like,
well, it's a midnight.
Ah, what's one more at thispoint.
Chris (03:59):
Right.
Right, somewhere in that lastepisode, you're like, well, does
it even matter now?
Yeah.
I'm gonna get less than fivehours of
Sarah (04:08):
sleep.
I'm gonna get shit sleep nomatter what, so I may as well
just watch it all.
Chris (04:13):
It matters in the morning, like when the alarm
goes off at six, and I'm like,great, I have had four hours of
sleep, and I am really, reallytired.
Sarah (04:21):
Yep.
Chris (04:22):
And I really have a lot of shit to do.
So that is, that's what, that'swhat we're doing here is
watching Landman.
We only have like three moreepisodes to go though, so I
don't know what we're gonna doafter that.
Sarah (04:34):
I watched Juror number two yesterday.
Chris (04:37):
Well, that sounds, that sounds
Sarah (04:38):
good.
It's on max.
Owen actually watched it withme.
It was pretty good.
I enjoyed it.
I can say that it ended and Iwent what the fuck?
So.
Chris (04:46):
Because you were so sad it was over or because it was
just weird?
Sarah (04:50):
Cause I wanted, I wanted it to do something else.
Chris (04:54):
I see.
I see.
You didn't write it.
Not
Sarah (04:57):
that I, I didn't want it.
Like, I feel like it ended theway that I knew it was going to
end, that I feel like it shouldend, but it was just abrupt.
It was abrupt.
And I didn't like the abrupt,abruptivity of it.
Chris (05:10):
Abruptivity.
I like that
Sarah (05:11):
word.
I've made that up.
Abruptivity.
Yes.
Yes.
That's what we should do.
Um, I should.
One more thing to mention.
We went to see a Pearl Jam coverband on Friday 10 at, um, at the
stage house craft beer place inthe South Hills.
Um, It was one, our old friendthat we used to work with
(05:33):
actually owns the bar.
So we got to see him and hiswife, which was fantastic.
Um, and then we, and then we gotto watch this Pearl Jam band and
they were, they were prettygood.
I mean, my standards, I thoughtthey were great.
No, I thought they were good.
You know, he's a big Pearl Jamfan and he was like, well, well,
here's what we talked aboutgetting the tickets.
(05:55):
And I said, when they, this wasweeks ago and I was like, dude.
I went on like the cheapestthere was like 300 bucks.
I said, I really, like, I'venever seen them live.
So I feel like that would be agreat experience.
But we also don't really have300 just laying around.
So what we can do is just clearout the garage, play some Pearl
Jam music or even, you know, godown the basement that we have
(06:16):
now and just listen to Pearl Jammusic.
And I mean, if we could hoot andholler a little bit if you want,
I don't know.
But anyway, after this, he waslike, no, if you thought that
was good, then, then we need tobuy tickets.
And I was like, yeah, no.
No, I'm not.
No, I'm not.
That's a lot.
It's a lot of freaking money.
And he was like, wait, you'venever seen them.
Like we've been married for 16years.
(06:37):
He's going to listen to this.
And I specifically said to him,I've never seen them
Chris (06:41):
recently.
Sarah (06:42):
Okay.
Next.
Chris (06:44):
Next.
Um, I sent Olivia and her friendon a quest.
Um, I've been moisturizing, I'vebeen using a specific
moisturizer on my face for apretty long time and I'm out of
it and they don't make itanymore.
So it's time to get a newmoisturizer.
And I also noticed that likesome, yeah, like there's,
(07:07):
there's just spots on my facethat have scars or, but maybe a
tinted moisturizer, likesomething to put on at night and
then a nice tinted moisturizerfor the daytime.
I So, I am wearing said tintedmoisturizer and I feel, feel
pretty good about it today.
It looks great.
It looks great.
I was going to
Sarah (07:24):
say, you look very, no, I was going to say voluminous, but
I don't think that's the rightword.
Chris (07:31):
Luminous.
I look radiant.
Sarah (07:33):
Luminous.
That's what it is.
I was going to say voluminous,but
Chris (07:37):
I don't think that's the right
Sarah (07:39):
word.
Luminous is what I meant.
Chris (07:41):
When I was heavier.
Uh, David, uh, David paid me acompliment, and he's like,
Sarah (07:47):
You look very voluminous.
Because
Chris (07:49):
he wanted to say voluptuous.
Sarah (07:51):
Even that! Even that! Nope.
Chris (07:54):
I was like, okay, thank you.
No, that's great, but
Sarah (07:57):
no.
Chris (07:59):
Voluminous.
All right, let's do thisepisode.
Are you going to talk about fanmail?
Sarah (08:05):
Fan mail! We got an awesome, uh, fan mail from Jamie
R.
No, her name's not Jamie R.
Well, yeah, it is.
I don't give a fuck.
Jamie R.
It was about our interview withMichelle Kapotz, which I
personally thought was awonderful interview.
Nice.
Chris (08:18):
It was really good.
Sarah (08:19):
Um, yeah.
So, she just said that it was,it was amazing stuff and just
giving me a little, what's theword?
You know?
Yeah, a little boost.
A little boost.
Um, about my honesty and, andvulnerability during that
episode, which is a little bitrough for me to watch the second
time over.
Right.
And very rough for me to leaveit in there.
(08:41):
That made me do a lot of this.
Anyway, so I appreciate forcalling that out and she said, I
hear you and I get you.
Cool.
Know that you're not alone.
'cause we've all fucked up stuffthat we tried and thought would
turn out different.
And yes, it's exhausting andcertainly not motivating to get
out there and do it again.
But you deserve to find yourthing and I know you're on the
right track, so
(09:03):
yay.
Yay.
And that made me feel awesome.
So thank you.
Thank you Jamie.
R And it's hard not to just saythe R, like, that's what I
wanted.
Say.
Chris (09:09):
You said it.
I just made a little note to.
Sarah (09:13):
Did I say?
Chris (09:14):
You did.
Yeah.
Sarah (09:15):
Fuck.
All right.
Well, anyway, I got
Chris (09:17):
it.
I'll fix
Sarah (09:18):
it.
And she loved how we ended itwith the message of, you know,
we're not alone and holdingspace for someone else is more
than enough.
So thank you, Jamie R.
Jamie R.
Love
Chris (09:32):
ya.
Sarah (09:33):
So that's it for our fan mail today.
Want to talk a little bit about,uh, Jumbo?
Chris (09:38):
Yeah.
Let's tell, let's tell someJumbo parenting stories.
Sarah (09:43):
Yeah, I thought that we might, because there's some fun
things that, that, that we coulddo.
Jumbo used to do.
The, the cops and robbers one, Idon't know if I was around for
that one.
I think that was before I wasborn because I just know that
from hearing it.
I don't ever remember it.
I recall it fondly.
Chris (09:58):
Just as a, just as a little note, uh, those of you
who have been with us for morethan a couple of episodes, um,
you'll quickly pick up on thefact that we can't remember more
than two episodes back.
Sarah (10:09):
I can't remember one episode back.
Chris (10:11):
I have no recollection of what we said in July last year.
I have vague memories.
of it until somebody reminds meof it.
So for those of you who might benewer, you're gonna love these
stories.
Sarah (10:22):
I just want to say it.
I was thinking of this too,like, fuck, we're gonna, we're
gonna repeat stories and shit,but we've had a lot of friends
in our lives like for a longtime that I'm pretty sure have
heard all of these stories athousand times and again, and
they still, they still lovethem.
Chris (10:38):
Still funny.
I was just gonna say.
And I mean, I laugh at
Sarah (10:41):
them every time and I've been hearing them and living
them for a very long
Chris (10:45):
time.
Right.
This is more of a tribute toJumbo than anything else we can
do because Jumbo will tell thesame story 50 times.
And I will
Sarah (10:53):
laugh just as hard.
Every time.
Chris (10:55):
Alright, so when Jumbo was a new dad, Uh, he would come
home from work and he would justwant a couple of minutes like
most new dads.
He would just want a couple ofminutes to kind of settle in,
read the paper, make thattransition from work life to
home life.
And, uh, Nita and I, uh, bothjust wanted a whole bunch of
(11:18):
attention because Nita had beentaking care of me all day.
And I had been, you know,dadless all day.
So I was like, Someone
Sarah (11:25):
knew, someone knew, someone knew.
I want to play,
Chris (11:27):
I want to play, I want to play, I want to play.
And I don't, I probably wasstill like this when I was, when
I was younger.
Like when I wanted to play, Iwanted to play.
So what Jumbo would do is uh, hewould, he made up this game and
he was a bank robber.
And he would come in, he would,he would hold up his uh, finger
guns.
And he would come into the bank,um, and this is all while he's
(11:48):
seated in a chair with the paperfolded in his lap.
So he'd have his finger guns andhe would tell me, Hey, you
freeze.
And I would freeze.
And, uh, he'd be like, allright, this is a holdup.
This is a holdup.
So it's a holdup and he's like,lay down on the ground, put your
face in the ground and, anddon't, don't move.
(12:09):
And I think this might've beenbefore I was able to count.
So he couldn't give me a numberto count to.
He would just, uh, tell me tolay down with my face in the
carpet and not move.
And then every once in a while,I would like look up or make
some sort of movement and hewould, he would yell it again.
Hey.
No moving.
And he'd have the finger guns.
I would peek up and he'd havethe finger guns.
Um, meanwhile, when I had myface in the carpet, Jumbo's just
(12:32):
reading the paper.
Sitting there turning the pagesof the paper.
Um, and I am on the floor withmy, my face in it.
And every, like, even if I,sometimes I wouldn't move and he
would go like randomly, Hey,
Sarah (12:49):
Hey! And you were, you were face down in shag
carpeting, I guarantee.
Like face down in smokesmelling, shag ass carpeting.
Chris (12:57):
There was a bunny in there that I made friends with,
there were tiny.
And it was
Sarah (13:01):
so itchy and scratchy.
Chris (13:03):
Carpet animals.
Right.
Like face buried in the car,like I couldn't know peripheral
vision cause there was shagcarpeting.
Sarah (13:10):
And you were, your one eye didn't work.
Chris (13:13):
Shut up.
They both work now.
So that is, uh, that is some,uh, jumbo parenting secrets.
So,
Sarah (13:19):
uh, if you're new, if you're new dad or mom, whatever,
this is a great way to get, uh,your toddler to leave you alone
for a little while.
Oh, we're playing.
Face down.
I'll play with you.
Yeah, we'll play face down.
I'm not sure it would haveworked with Owen though, because
I think he would have just, hewould have been like, fine, then
shoot me.
I mean, I'm done.
Chris (13:39):
I was a very compliant child.
I was the firstborn, like Iwanted very compliant.
Alright, um, other Jumbostories?
What are you doing with yourcamera there?
Sarah (13:49):
I'm sorry, I have to mute something.
Yeah, the only one I, uh, theonly other one I, well, there's
a couple, and it seemed, I feellike when I mention it, you
don't remember taking Daddy'sshoes off when we would get
home.
Uh uh.
And he was drunk.
I don't know.
Maybe mom, you'll have to giveus a, tell us when this started.
I don't know.
Cause I, I very much remembercoming home and daddy was drunk
(14:10):
and he'd flop down on the bed.
Girls, get my shoes off.
Maybe it was just Sarah.
Get my shoes off.
But yeah, there was the takingoff of the shoes and then, um, I
feel like something else thateverybody does that's well
known, but it just alwayscracked me up was the racing for
the beer.
I'll time you, just the specifictiming or, um, you girls race.
(14:31):
I'm not sure, I don't reallyremember us ever racing, though.
Do you?
Chris (14:34):
It would have been, it would have been unfair.
I mean, we're five years apart.
Sarah (14:37):
But I was always faster than you, so it doesn't matter.
Chris (14:40):
I would, which, which is really funny, because I was
like, oh, I would have beat theshit out of her.
Sarah (14:45):
I would have treated it like that, that race that we had
in Eaton Park, parking lot, andI would have just hip checked
you right the fuck out of myway.
Chris (14:52):
First off, it was at Denny's.
Sarah (14:54):
Oh yeah, it was.
Where we were
Chris (14:56):
racing in the parking lot.
Um, secondly, there was a timewhere I was significantly bigger
than you.
Like you couldn't have hipchecked me because you were a
tot legged baby.
Yeah, like
Sarah (15:06):
two years ago you were significantly bigger than me.
Shut
Chris (15:09):
up.
Sarah (15:10):
Okay, okay.
When you were like six and I wastwo.
Chris (15:15):
Yeah.
It wouldn't have been any fun.
And then I, I just, I, I chosenot to participate at a certain
point.
Right?
Cause I was like.
Yeah.
Sarah (15:22):
Like, this is dumb.
I'm not doing it.
Chris (15:24):
I'm 12.
But the
Sarah (15:25):
timing, and you always, like, at least I always set the
record.
But his counting was similar tohow I would count for Owen.
Like, okay, ready, go.
One.
Chris (15:37):
Continue on with my conversation, and the kid
finally returns with the beer.
That's a
Sarah (15:41):
new record! Yeah! It was a big celebration.
So, um, yeah, fun jumbo things.
That's really all I had.
Just some cute little basicstories for this week.
Chris (15:51):
Maybe that's the advantage of having, having two
children, is that you get toextend out the time where people
will play those kind of games.
Sarah (15:58):
Yeah.
That's probably why they had me,really.
Chris (16:02):
To get the beers.
Sarah (16:03):
It's like, I need a beer runner.
And eventually they'll havekids, so I'll have grandkids
that'll run and get me thebeers.
Chris (16:10):
This one is gonna be, this one is gonna figure out the
trick.
She won't play anymore.
Sarah (16:15):
I'm pretty sure that Owen will still play if you give him
five dollars.
Right.
Chris (16:19):
It comes with a monetary cost at this point.
It's
Sarah (16:21):
no longer a race for a record, it's a money thing.
I'll give you a
Chris (16:25):
dollar.
Yeah.
If it elapses.
Sarah (16:29):
Yep.
Nevermind.
Chris (16:31):
All right.
Let's get into, let's get intoour, uh, mental wellness, uh,
section here.
So again, you good there?
Are you hydrated?
Sarah (16:39):
Yeah.
That's the, I'm hydrated.
The I'm dehydrated and need adrink is,
Chris (16:43):
ugh, people are crying.
I'm definitely cutting out allof those noises.
And then you
Sarah (16:49):
take a, you take a little drink and you go, that means I'm
all hydrated.
Chris (16:53):
Gross.
Cutting it all out.
Um, the first rule of mastery.
is the book we are reading.
So, uh, last week, uh, we caughtup on chapters one through
three.
Um, a couple weeks ago we talkedabout Beethoven.
Sarah (17:08):
My favorite.
Chris (17:09):
Right.
And didn't
Sarah (17:10):
even know he was going deaf.
Chris (17:11):
Nope.
Nobody knew.
Sarah (17:14):
Pretty fucking amazing.
Chris (17:16):
Except for everybody.
So some of the things we talkedabout last week.
So chapter, uh, chapter one isall about sort of defining FOPO,
the fear of other people'sopinions.
And that's kind of the.
Moral of the story that B.
Thoven was talking about is thathe let, he let his fear of other
people's opinion of his deafnesshold him back when he could have
(17:37):
just been making beautiful musicduring the years where, uh,
where he was, you know, kind ofhiding from that.
And then we talked about themechanics of, of FOPO.
So kind of what FOPO is andisn't.
We as human beings have a, uh,innate.
sense of wanting to belong,wanting to be a part of the
pack, because that's how wesurvived a long time ago.
(17:59):
So, so as people, we'reconstantly looking around for
clues that we're, that we'refitting in, that we're part of
the group, that we're able tomaintain and keep those
connections.
And FOPO becomes a problem whenwe start thinking about what
might happen, not what ishappening.
We start thinking about whatmight happen and, and then we
prevent that pretend rejectionthat hasn't happened yet by
(18:23):
changing or modifying whatwe're, we're doing.
So a lot of the things that leadto FOPO are sort of a poor sense
of self, like relying completelyon those reactions to tell you
who you are as a person, like.
I think we talked about it.
Oh, yeah, we talked about it alot last time being a middle,
uh, middle school girl andlooking at how you dress and
(18:47):
being like, well, obviously Iwant to be in the group of cool
kids.
So I'm going to wear four pairsof slouchy socks with my high
tops.
Cause that's what did we,
Sarah (18:57):
did we get bigger shoes in that, in those times we just
bought bigger shoes.
Like, and now like, I hate, Ihate bigger shoes.
Like I feel like if I'm wearinga half a size bigger than what I
should be aware, like my actualsize, my feet look like boats
and I don't like it, but Idon't, that's just, it's amazing
to me.
We were wearing four pairs ofsocks,
Chris (19:16):
right?
Like
Sarah (19:18):
that's a lot of laundry too.
Chris (19:20):
Right.
And your feet had to be so hot.
So
Sarah (19:23):
fucking sweaty.
Oh my, my feet are sweatingright now.
I'm just thinking about it as areaction to this.
Like 17 pairs of socks and some,some plastic ass LA gears.
Chris (19:36):
LA gears.
Oh my God.
Like the black high tops.
My God.
So you had,
Sarah (19:41):
and then you had 17 shoelaces to go with them.
Like there
Chris (19:44):
was a lot of time.
We were
Sarah (19:46):
dumb.
Chris (19:46):
Right.
A hundred percent.
Stupid, stupid people.
But we were cool.
You were cool.
Sarah (19:51):
I still think that's a, maybe, maybe.
Chris (19:55):
Right.
So one of the other things thatkind of leads to, you know, fast
tracking yourself to some, um,holding, holding back behavior
based on, uh, FOPO is aperformance based identity.
You know, one of the thingswe're going to, well, the only
thing we're going to talk aboutthis week is, uh, identity.
We're going to talk about thatperformance based identity and
(20:18):
how we can use our identities toeither feed in to the FOPO or
take some steps to makeourselves sort of FOPO proof.
Right.
FOPOP, FOPOP, I love it.
FOPOP.
Yeah.
Um, so we're going to spend agood deal of time talking about
identity.
(20:38):
Identity goes back to what aremy values?
So I think everything that we'vetalked about in this podcast up
to this point has been, how do Ifigure it out?
How do I figure out what I'msupposed to be doing?
Like, who am I?
What are my values?
What I wrote in my notes is wheneverything crashes and burns,
what will I be left with?
So a lot of, a lot of the fearthat we feel when we're talking
(21:02):
about FOPO, a part of that basefear is anticipating what
happens when everything crashesand burns.
Like, what if I am ostracized?
What if I'm out here by myself?
What if these things happen?
What, uh, what am I left with?
And what you're left with isyour identity.
So it's the subjective sense ofself built on experiences,
beliefs, values, memories, andculture.
(21:24):
That's the, that's thedefinition that we're working
with here.
So there's a lot of, uh, there'sa lot of quotes and there's a
lot of storytelling in this bookthat I tend to like skip over.
Um, Oh, those
Sarah (21:36):
are the parts I like the most.
And that I note the most.
Chris (21:39):
The one in the beginning of the chapter is about a
basketball.
And I can't remember the name ofthe player, Carl Malone.
Is it Carl?
Yeah.
Sarah (21:47):
Mm hmm.
Yep, and he was playing againstthe Bulls.
So it was the Jazz and theBulls.
Chris (21:53):
No idea.
Yeah, not much of a basketball.
It was
Sarah (21:56):
Jazz and the Bulls and Scotty Pippen was passing him as
he was walking near the field.
free throw line.
And it's FIFO line.
And it's became English therefor a second.
It was 82, 82 with nine secondsleft and it's tied.
Like biggest thing in the world.
And this guy like Malone, I wantto say Mark Malone, but that's
not it.
(22:16):
Carl Malone.
Yeah.
He's like one of the best freefree throwers ever.
Anyway, he's walking in the lineand Scotty Pippin passes him and
they used to call Carl Malone.
What did they call him?
The postman?
Cause like the mail, he alwaysdelivered.
Like a mail, or the mailman.
Mailman.
Mailman.
And um, I guess it was a Sundaythey were playing on.
(22:37):
And uh, Scotty Pippin passed himup and was like, Melman doesn't
deliver on Sundays.
And dude missed both shots.
Chris (22:44):
Right.
I mean, these are, these arelike crazy stories and like what
that one gets back to is so muchof Carl Malone's identity on the
basketball court was based onthe fact that he delivered and
that Scottie Pippen is exactlythe right thing to fuck with
him.
That's kind of what.
What happens when we are basingour, our self worth on something
(23:07):
that's outside of our control.
If you base your identity onthat and someone guesses with
you, then you're like, what ifthat isn't who I am?
What if I'm not deliveringbecause it's Sunday?
Sarah (23:16):
I think it's important that, to note that it's not just
about free frost.
When we're looking for ouridentity, that it's a cumulative
thing.
It's not just one particularthing.
It draws from many aspects inour lives.
And we need to remember thatit's not one thing that defines
our identity.
Our identity is something, in mymind, that's fluid.
It's not something that staysthe same.
(23:38):
When I was 21, I wasn't able tosay, Hey, my identity is fluid.
Red Bull and vodka.
But yeah, my identity now as a46 year old mom is a lot
different than it was when I was21 ringing in the new year on
the Vegas strip,
Chris (23:55):
right?
Sarah (23:56):
Michael Gervais says identity can morph over time.
Based on the knowledge we gainabout ourselves through
experience and how we apply thatknowledge in our lives.
But we need to understand thatit's not just one thing.
And here's where he quotes oneof my favorites, the fight club
quote, and it's, you're not yourjob.
You're not how much money youhave in the bank.
You are not the car you drive.
You are not the contents of yourwallet and you are not your
(24:18):
fucking khakis.
Chris (24:19):
Right.
You are not your khakis.
So we're, we're obsessed in ourculture with performance.
Everything's data driven.
If I can't measure it, I can'timprove it.
If you just look at athletics,the statistics drive a lot of
decision making involved in, ineverything that we do.
As a person who deals in dataand numbers, I can't, can't
(24:41):
provide enough detail on datawhen I'm making decisions.
So everything, everything isdata driven, um.
Sarah (24:50):
And that's not just in work, like data driven
decisions, data driven this.
When you look at the socialmedia side of it, you're looking
at how many followers you have,the likes that you have, the
social reach that you have, canget really, really stuck.
Chris (25:01):
That's, that's the thing with performance based
identities and being able tomeasure so much is that
performance based identities doreally well.
When we can can measure aperformance based person and,
you know, through all of school,as long as I was doing well on
the tests, then everything elsefell by the wayside.
(25:22):
It doesn't matter.
Nothing else matters.
As long as I'm performing, aslong as I'm still getting good
grades, as long as my teachersare recognizing that I'm getting
good grades.
Yes, I'm doing great.
I'm doing great.
I'm doing better than that guy.
I'm doing better than that girl.
I'm still getting A's.
I am a genius.
Those work for a little bit, butthey're not sustainable.
(25:43):
I spent my time in graduateschool looking at my performance
on exams as the way to validatethat I was smart and I knew what
I was doing.
When I should have been lookingat, do I know what I'm doing?
Do I understand the materialthat I'm learning?
I'll give you a good example.
When I was in undergraduate, Iearned like a B minus in one of
my classes, maybe a C plus.
(26:04):
It was, it was a, it was agreat, I didn't know.
I did not want because I had,I'd screwed up like the first
couple of tests and, um, then Ijust never really recovered
after that.
So I, I, I earned a bad grade inthis particular class, but I was
on pretty good terms with theteacher and I'm pretty.
You know, engaging as a person.
(26:24):
And I was like, well, maybe thisisn't C plus or whatever.
Maybe it's just an A minus.
I mean, look at my final, youknow, you can see me improving.
I mean, in no way, shape or formdid I know this material at all.
I had crammed for each of thosetests right at the last minute.
miraculously done a little bitbetter on each one, right?
So when I got to graduateschool, I had to take that class
(26:46):
over again because I wasn'tgoing to understand anything
that came after that.
But the measure of everythingwas that great.
And that's really all thatmattered until I needed the
knowledge.
And then I was like, well, shit.
So, so basing your identity atme being a smart person in math
on whether or not I got a goodgrade.
Got a good grade is looking forthat external validation and it
(27:10):
didn't matter that I didn't knowthe stuff.
Somebody said I did a good job,so I did a good job.
When, when I really sat down andthought about it and that got
sort of pulled away, then it's aproblem for me because I need to
admit that I'm not a smartperson in math until I can
actually know that material.
It was a cumbling thing.
When we base our worth on ourperformance, we stop trying to
(27:34):
extend and stop trying to gobeyond what we already know.
Like, you lose that freedom totest yourself outside of, uh,
outside of those measurements.
Because you're so worried aboutbeing so perfect that you can't,
that you can't fail.
And looking, taking a hard lookat whether or not I knew that
material was essentiallyadmitting a failure.
(27:54):
I don't know it.
I'm going to have to take thisclass again.
Part of the thing that, that youwant to do is be able to, um,
Extend yourself throughlearning, uh, about the, the
shit.
Um, if you can commit tolearning and purpose, uh, you
can start to protect yourselffrom, from FOBO.
If you can, if you can stoplooking at it like, Oh, I'm not
even going to try that becauseif I try it and I fail, then,
(28:19):
then I'll confirm that I'm notany good in my personality
symbols.
Um, but if I can look at itlike, Alright, I'm not going to
think less of myself.
I'm going to, I'm going to trythis and then I'm going to take
what I've done here and learn,uh, extend my personality,
extend my identity, uh, and basemy identity on somebody who, who
(28:39):
can take that failure and learnfrom it.
And that's a purpose driven, uh,that's a purpose driven
identity.
No,
Sarah (28:47):
no.
It makes sense.
You're good.
Chris (28:49):
So that is where we can start to protect ourselves from
that FOPO.
What can I learn from thisversus who can I impress with
this?
So if you go back to the exampleof graduate school, look at me,
I'm, I have a very good GPA toshit.
I didn't do so good in thisclass and I really need to learn
it.
So I'm going to stick with my Bminus and maybe retake that
class when I should have retakenit instead of trying to do it
(29:10):
three weeks before graduateschool started.
Those are the ways that you canmove from performance to
purpose.
Looking from external tointernal and I think one of the
things that you wrote down isnot Thinking less of yourself,
but thinking of yourself lessoften like it doesn't it doesn't
matter what anybody else thinksabout you It's like It, it's
(29:31):
your ability to move yourselfforward, I think is the, the way
that I always think about it.
Does that make sense?
Sarah (29:37):
Yeah.
To learn from it.
I really like, how do youpronounce that word?
Bulwark?
Chris (29:41):
Yeah.
Sarah (29:43):
I really, cause I had to look it up.
I was like, what the fuck isthat?
It's a defensive wall.
So a bulwark against FOPO ishaving a strong sense of self.
I just wanted to read that so Icould say bulwark and try to
figure out how I can put it intomore of my vocabulary on a daily
basis.
Okay.
Um, the other thing I wrote hereis just something that goes
along with what I talked aboutearlier is that our identity is
(30:05):
something that's fluid thatwe're constantly addressing and
constantly looking into.
And I like what he wrote here.
There's a couple things, onethat he wrote, and then it was
another quote from someone else.
I didn't write down their name,but anchoring ourself, anchoring
our sense of self in discoveryis not a cop out to avoiding
committing to who we are.
It's simply an acknowledgementthat we change with time.
(30:28):
So we're always changing and wealways have to be aware of that.
And the quote is human beingsare works in progress that
mistakenly think they'refinished
Chris (30:36):
that part of it goes back to uh Your performance based
identities are based on a seriesof if then statements, right?
Like if I get any of this classthen i'm then i'm worthwhile
Then I am the person who issmart if I win wimbledon Then
i'm a good tennis player like ifthen if then if then if then
where purpose driven is more ofa You Let's, let's see what
(30:58):
happens.
This is what I want to do rightnow.
This is important to me rightnow.
Let me, let me see if I cancarry this forward.
Sarah (31:06):
You keep building on that, but achieving the
performance based objective,it's only temporary.
Chris (31:11):
Yeah.
Sarah (31:11):
And it's great when you, when you finish that, Oh, I won
the gold medal.
Fantastic.
What's next.
Like you're moving directly intosomething else and it's just
constant.
You're not going to have asustained satisfaction, which is
what we're talking about.
The performance based is notsustainable.
And then the other thing I wrotehere is the pursuit of
excellence and high performanceis important.
(31:31):
We learn about ourselves bydoing difficult things and
testing the boundaries of ourperceived limits.
When the core motivation ofpursuing excellence Excellence
is proving our self worth.
Mistakes, failures, opinions,and criticism are experienced as
threats instead of learningopportunities.
So it's not just about myself,but more about your awareness
(31:53):
and what you can learn from eachof these things.
Chris (31:57):
Yeah, if you, if you can commit to learning and purpose,
purpose is not a prerequisitefor high performance, but you
can use that purpose to buildresilience.
And I think that is the thingthat drives high performance,
being able to fail miserably andunderstand that I am still a
worthwhile person.
I mean, I think if you go backto April, this is what we were
(32:20):
talking about, because we weretalking about me going on job
interviews.
And And me for the first time inmy life, not having something a
hundred percent lined up andready to go.
For so long, my identity wasbased on me going to get this
dream job at this dream company.
And that's going to be the thingthat, that makes me who I am
going back to the whole thingcrashes and burns.
(32:41):
Right?
What's left?
I'm still smart at my job.
I'm still good at what I do.
I still have value outside ofwhat this company thinks about
me.
I still have value outside ofwhatever led to that decision
that they didn't hire me.
Those are things external to me.
And the thing that brings youthrough those things is I, I'm
still a good person.
I'm still just as smart as I wasyesterday.
(33:03):
Nothing about that rejectionreally changes fundamentally who
I am.
So yeah,
Sarah (33:08):
and you learn, you learn from that and that's the
resilience part of it, right?
And I, as I was reading, Ithought it was pretty cool that,
that this, um, would be comingout after our Michelle
interview, because I think a lotof it goes along what I talked
about.
I failed at so many fuckingthings.
I just don't even want to tryanymore.
But, it's not just about mefailing, it's about me learning
(33:28):
from those things, and it'sabout me digging deeper.
Yeah, so I've been working withMichelle since we did the
interview, and she's officiallymy coach.
And um, and yeah, it's beenwonderful, and I've, I've
learned a lot.
I've learned a lot about myidentity that I didn't even
realize was there.
Again, not think less ofyourself.
There's nothing wrong with me.
It's not the failure part that Ishould be focusing on.
(33:49):
I need to be learning, and I'mlooking at those experiences a
lot differently.
Chris (33:54):
Yes.
Yeah, I think, you know.
Sarah (33:57):
I think it's worth mentioning the Missy Franklin
story.
She was a gold medalist, and soshe was swimming forever.
And her parents did a reallygood job making sure that she
had an identity.
Trying to help her build thatidentity outside of swimming.
Like she even said, Missy, theirdaughter, I was Missy, the
(34:18):
friend, Missy, the student, allof those things before I was
Missy, the swimmer.
And so they instilled that inher throughout her whole life.
And she was very successful.
I forget exactly which Olympicgames it was, but then she went
on to Rio and I guess she onlywon one medal and it was, she
considered that to be a failure.
And at that point she wascompletely lost.
(34:38):
And that's because she'sherself.
identity was swimming.
That's all she identified.
That's how she lived her life atthat time.
So it was really hard for her tocome out of that and deal with
that failure because that's allthat she was.
And that's even someone who,again, has really strong parents
who were trying to instill inher that that's not all she was.
(35:00):
Sometimes outwardly, we wereproviding as a parent, we're
providing what we need for ourkids, but sometimes Sometimes it
doesn't totally sink in, so westill need to be around because
sometimes they need help pickingup the pieces.
Chris (35:14):
Right.
I mean, I, we, we talk about itall the time with the emphasis
that we put on, on our littlestudent athletes.
Not playing soccer anymore afterI was done playing soccer is
hard.
That's a hard thing to give up.
And it did kind of mess with mefor a little bit.
Like part of my identity wasbeing on the soccer team.
(35:34):
And then all of a sudden Iwasn't.
Part of this chapter also talksabout people who have had FOPO
give themselves built inexcuses.
And I do this all the time.
I will leave a task up until thevery end and then rush through
finishing it.
And then if somebody criticizesit, I'm like, I left it until
the very end.
(35:55):
So, of course it's not perfect,but it would have been, it would
have been in my pretend realitywhere I actually tried and, and
gave a shit about doing a goodpresentation.
Sarah (36:04):
That makes me think of how I, like, and I, I would
still say it.
I, my soccer, what's the wordI'm looking for?
My soccer talent, I feel like Ikind of really stopped growing
at the rate that I could have atprobably 14 or 15.
And I always say that, like, I'malways like, yeah, I could have
been so much better.
I could have done so much moreif I didn't basically give up
then.
(36:25):
But, I mean, I don't know.
It's hard.
And it's still stuff, and, andworking with Michelle, it's,
it's odd that it's stuff that'shard for me to talk about
because I was 18 when I quit, or19 when I quit.
Like, whatever.
Um, and it was so long ago, andin my brain, it was fairly
insignificant.
But, um, 46 and just learningthat it was actually a really
Chris (36:46):
challenging, hard for you to do.
impactful decision to make.
I, I will fill everyone in.
She's crying a little bit.
So we're just going to, I'm justgoing to talk until she, she
gets it together.
Sarah (37:01):
Because if I start talking, then I hoot and I'm
like, daddy, and then I getreally, really ugly crying.
So, um, yeah, but it was very,very significant part of my life
that I've never given the timeto.
Chris (37:14):
When we say that this shit is hard, this is what we're
talking about.
We can have superficialdiscussions about term papers
and presentations.
Uh, or we can, we can have thesediscussions about what building
an identity is really about andwhat we, we want to change and
do differently about our, ourown identities.
Uh, what I, what I wrote down inmy notes here is we will do a
(37:35):
lot of fucked up shit to protectour identity.
And some of that is really kindof counterintuitive.
Like I'm not going to try realhard because it's so important
to me to cling to the, whatcould have been that I won't, I
won't make myself vulnerableenough.
To actually learn and get betterat it.
(37:56):
You will have chosen to preserveyour identity rather than to use
the challenge as an opportunityto learn something about
yourself.
That is the soul of what we'retrying to get at it.
Not just, not just through thisbook, but in this podcast and in
our, in our lives.
Right.
That's why it touches so manylike tender nerves is that this
is the hardship.
(38:17):
This is the shit that makes adifference.
And
Sarah (38:19):
yeah,
Chris (38:21):
yeah, we could protect our identities by saying, Oh,
everything's fine here, but whenwe, when we can do what we just
did and open up and be like,yeah, I, maybe I messed that up.
How do I move forward from that?
Like that's the, that's thestuff that you can use to fight
off the FOPO.
Sarah (38:36):
Yeah.
That's a long time to not.
In my mind, it's not thatsignificant.
I can only imagine like majorcovering that up.
So fuck.
It's something that I was inworking with her that I was,
wait, it was a big part of itand I never addressed it.
I never talked about it.
You know, people ask, why'd youquit soccer?
Well, because I wanted to, todrink and smoke.
(38:59):
That's not why I quit soccer.
I'm still, I still don't knowwhy I quit soccer, but that was
the easy answer.
Chris (39:04):
Right.
That's the, that's the hardhomework that, that we all have
is to look at it.
And I think for me, one of thebig things was being able to.
understand that if I keepcomparing myself to people,
like, and I think that's, that'sthe, that's also the part.
That's the
Sarah (39:23):
awareness.
It's just asking thosequestions.
It's stopping and being a littlemore aware of what's going on
instead of just going with thatknee jerk reaction.
Chris (39:34):
Like you said, that's that awareness piece.
That's that first part of it.
Being able to, you know, prettymajor regrets about how long I
sat in my career, not trying ashard as I could have.
Not trying to be first, nottrying to be more, not trying to
to do things that I thoughtwould kind of move myself and,
(39:55):
and not put myself out there,maybe is the best way to say it.
Sarah (39:59):
I'm not gonna put myself out there because of faux pas.
Chris (40:01):
Right.
I think that's like thedefinition of it.
I am not going to speak up.
I am not going to, I'm not goingto try.
And then when, when I finallygot to the point where something
clicked and I was like, itdoesn't matter.
I'm still going to
Sarah (40:14):
be
Chris (40:14):
good at this job regardless
Sarah (40:16):
of
Chris (40:17):
who gets that promotion, who, who gets to deliver the,
the monthly slides.
It doesn't have as much of animpact.
And I think when you can havethat awareness, you can really,
you can really fight off yourFOPO.
I'm not solely based on this onething, and I think the rest of
the book and the rest of ourexperiences with this is going
to be about getting back to thatidentity.
(40:38):
What is it about you that, thatmakes you, uh, that makes you
who you are and what measures doyou use?
So going all the way back to,um, the subtle art of not giving
a fuck, how you measure asuccessful life is going to be
the thing that keeps you from.
You know, putting yourself outthere and doing great things.
(41:00):
It's going to keep you frombeing resilient in times where
shit just burns to the ground.
It's going to make it longer foryou to recover from those
things.
And it's going to make you morefearful and make sure that those
things never happen.
I think the last thing I have inhere is the Ted Lasso.
When we're, when we're talkingabout measuring success, success
externally versus internally.
(41:22):
Um, it's not about the wins andthe losses.
It's about making these youngmen decent human beings.
It's about the lessons that youlearn from, from those losses.
And if you can base youridentity on something that isn't
measured externally, like winsand losses, that you can
actually appreciate those lossesfor what they are, which is
opportunities to learn and dobetter.
Sarah (41:43):
Absolutely.
Chris (41:44):
I'm really, really looking forward to like the next
couple of chapters.
So next week, if you guys aregoing to read along, we're going
to do five and six.
Thanks.
And then we're going to get intothe part two.
So I think part one is justsetting, setting everything up
on, you know, some things thatcan prevent you from falling
into FOPO and then we'll getsome practical, practical advice
(42:05):
and some knowledge in the, inthe other parts.
So.
That's what I got for you.
Sarah (42:10):
Well done.
I enjoyed it.
I enjoyed this chapter.
Um, and I think the rest of thisis going to be fun.
Interesting.
There's a lot of digging.
Yeah, it's
Chris (42:22):
hard, but it's so worth it.
I mean, I think you can kind ofget a flavor of FOPO and how
damaging and, and
Sarah (42:30):
Yeah.
How
Chris (42:30):
hard it is to live that kind of life and how thrilling I
don't think we
Sarah (42:35):
realize, and it comes back to awareness, if you're not
aware of the FOPO, you have noclue how much it really is
hurting you.
And once you become aware ofthat, it's, it's such a game
changer.
It really is.
Chris (42:47):
Yeah.
Sarah (42:47):
Um, and just thinking about FOPO versus, you know, uh,
January 2nd, 2024 versus January2nd, 2025.
Oh
Chris (42:57):
my God.
Sarah (42:58):
Like, I mean, life is a lot different.
Chris (43:02):
It really is.
And life is a
Sarah (43:03):
lot different because of what we've been doing.
Chris (43:05):
Yes.
Sarah (43:06):
Um, so I mean, that's, that's a huge win and we, we're
just going to continue to do it.
Chris (43:12):
Yeah, I dig it.
I dig it.
Sarah (43:13):
And it kind of started with FOPO.
Chris (43:15):
It really, it really did.
Thank you, Dan Harris.
Yeah.
Thank you, Mark Manson.
I think once, it's like, um,what's the, what's the movie,
Better Off Dead?
Did you ever see this movie?
Um.
Sarah (43:26):
I want my 2.
Right.
That's that one, right?
Chris (43:29):
I'm real sorry your mom blew up, Ricky.
A great 90s movie.
I think what One of the mostpowerful Oh, in every
Sarah (43:37):
movie that John Cusack is in, I'm sorry, I don't care what
he wore in any movie, but everyand I will see the background of
the correct movie, and I knowhe's in it, and I'm in the right
movie, but no matter what, he'salways wearing that trench coat.
Right,
Chris (43:50):
he has a boombox with him in every movie.
From Say
Sarah (43:52):
Anything?
Doesn't matter, like, could beso, like, forever ago, or like
yesterday, whatever, that'salways what he's wearing.
Chris (43:59):
Right, 100%.
Sorry, go ahead,
Sarah (44:00):
side note.
Chris (44:00):
One of the Like that, that movie has a lot of good
themes and especially when itcomes to, comes to Fopo, which
is weird because it is like athrowaway comedy movie from the,
from the eighties.
But his French girlfriend says,I think if you get a taste of
success, you're going to findout how much you like it.
(44:21):
And I think Fopo is one of thoselittle successes, like
understanding and being aware ofit is one is one of those
successes that just leads into aricher life experience.
So.
I'm real sorry your mom blew up,Ricky.
Also,
Sarah (44:39):
a
Chris (44:40):
sense of empathy is important.
Sarah (44:42):
Yeah, yeah.
All right.
Okay.
Well, I think that's wrapping itup for today.
We will talk to you guys nextweek.
Chris (44:48):
All right.
Sarah (44:49):
Later boners.
Love you.
Bye.
Chris (44:51):
Love you.
Hi, welcome to the mental funny bone.
I'm Sarah.
She's Chris.
We are not mental healthprofessionals, but we'll talk
about some fun mental healthstuff.
I don't know if fun and mentalhealth stuff goes, whatever.
But if you do need seriousmental health assistance, please
dial 988 or go to our show notesand click on one of those links.
Chris (00:22):
New Year's Eve.
How was your, how was your NewYear's Eve?
Sarah (00:25):
Freaking wonderful.
It was fantastic.
I was up until 3am actually.
This is after looking at mywatch and going, it's eight
o'clock.
There's no fucking way I'mmaking it till midnight.
Then I ended up being awakeuntil 3am and even better.
I was not even hung overyesterday.
Chris (00:42):
That is a, that is amazing.
Sarah (00:43):
I was able to get up and clean the house after our party.
Cause we hosted, and it was fun.
And now we are into January, andyou know what January is for me?
Chris (00:52):
Dry January.
Sarah (00:53):
Dry January! My liver's doing a little dance, like, and
then like that part of my brainthat really likes the booze is
like, what the fuck?
What if they have Pepsi?
Chris (01:02):
What if they have Pepsi?
Sarah (01:03):
Cause normally I say, do you have Pepsi or Coke?
And if they say Pepsi, I say,okay, I'll have a Miller Lite.
Chris (01:09):
There's a thing on Facebook where there's a girl
who tries to order an applejuice and they don't have it.
And she's like, fine, I'll havea Bloody Mary.
Right.
Sarah (01:16):
Exactly.
We'll see how it goes.
But, uh, I'm actually excitedabout Dry January.
Chris (01:21):
Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give it a try this year.
It will have sort of minimalimpact.
Cause I'm not traveling a wholelot, but um, there are like two
trips where I'm possibly goingto meet clients while I'm in
Raleigh.
So there's, I think that wouldbe the big challenge for me.
Sarah (01:40):
That's actually why I did not do Dry January last year
because we had a big, I mean,but I only travel once a year.
I mean, this year we weren'tinvited, uh, so I dodged that
bullet.
But last year, bless you, lastyear, that is why, um, that's
why I didn't do dry Januarybecause we were traveling and I,
(02:01):
I didn't want to not drink.
Chris (02:03):
We'll see how it goes.
Sarah (02:05):
So there you go.
How was your New Year's?
Chris (02:09):
It was, it was good.
I'm trying to remember what Idid.
David and I started watching anew series, right, called, uh,
Landman, Landman.
Sarah (02:18):
I feel like that's something I don't want to watch.
Chris (02:21):
It, like, I thought it was a superhero thing, but it's
not.
Sarah (02:25):
I just see, like, uh, you know what I, comes into my head
as Groot.
Chris (02:29):
No, no, it wasn't.
It's not even, it's not evensuperhero related.
Sarah (02:33):
No, not as a superhero, but like Landman, like a guy who
looks like Groot.
Talking about how he survivesoff of the land.
Chris (02:40):
No, no, not like, not like that at all.
It's a, uh, it's the, anyway,it's got Billy Bob, Billy Bob
Thornton.
Um, he's so good in it thatthere are parts where I laughed
out loud.
And that hardly ever happens ina TV show.
Somebody also gets horriblyinjured every episode.
Sarah (02:59):
Nope.
We'll not watch it.
We'll absolutely that's a thatis a hard stop.
Hard stop.
Chris (03:05):
It is about oil fields in Texas.
Also, Jon Hamm is in it, and Iam a
Sarah (03:12):
I like Jon Hamm.
I
Chris (03:13):
do too.
Sarah (03:14):
I feel I'm
Chris (03:15):
Jon Hamm and uh, Billy Bob Thornton and it yeah, it's
just it's just crazy.
Just a crazy, crazy show.
There's ten episodes.
I think we did like six in onenight and David always has to be
the distributor of the episodescause I'll just watch all ten
and not go to bed.
Yeah,
Sarah (03:31):
that's how I am too.
Chris (03:32):
So he's like, we're gonna stop after this one.
And I'm like, well,
Sarah (03:36):
I mean, I say that before every episode, like once we get
to nine o'clock, I'm like, yeah,we're gonna, we're done.
We're done after this one.
Chris (03:41):
And
Sarah (03:42):
then like, ah, it's only 10 o'clock.
It's fine.
One more.
It's only 11.
It's fine.
We can get one more in there.
One more.
Like normal adults don't go tobed until after the news anyway.
Okay.
So we can, that's always my, butit's still, it's then I'm like,
well, it's a midnight.
Ah, what's one more at thispoint.
Chris (03:59):
Right.
Right, somewhere in that lastepisode, you're like, well, does
it even matter now?
Yeah.
I'm gonna get less than fivehours of
Sarah (04:08):
sleep.
I'm gonna get shit sleep nomatter what, so I may as well
just watch it all.
Chris (04:13):
It matters in the morning, like when the alarm
goes off at six, and I'm like,great, I have had four hours of
sleep, and I am really, reallytired.
Sarah (04:21):
Yep.
Chris (04:22):
And I really have a lot of shit to do.
So that is, that's what, that'swhat we're doing here is
watching Landman.
We only have like three moreepisodes to go though, so I
don't know what we're gonna doafter that.
Sarah (04:34):
I watched Juror number two yesterday.
Chris (04:37):
Well, that sounds, that sounds
Sarah (04:38):
good.
It's on max.
Owen actually watched it withme.
It was pretty good.
I enjoyed it.
I can say that it ended and Iwent what the fuck?
So.
Chris (04:46):
Because you were so sad it was over or because it was
just weird?
Sarah (04:50):
Cause I wanted, I wanted it to do something else.
Chris (04:54):
I see.
I see.
You didn't write it.
Not
Sarah (04:57):
that I, I didn't want it.
Like, I feel like it ended theway that I knew it was going to
end, that I feel like it shouldend, but it was just abrupt.
It was abrupt.
And I didn't like the abrupt,abruptivity of it.
Chris (05:10):
Abruptivity.
I like that
Sarah (05:11):
word.
I've made that up.
Abruptivity.
Yes.
Yes.
That's what we should do.
Um, I should.
One more thing to mention.
We went to see a Pearl Jam coverband on Friday 10 at, um, at the
stage house craft beer place inthe South Hills.
Um, It was one, our old friendthat we used to work with
(05:33):
actually owns the bar.
So we got to see him and hiswife, which was fantastic.
Um, and then we, and then we gotto watch this Pearl Jam band and
they were, they were prettygood.
I mean, my standards, I thoughtthey were great.
No, I thought they were good.
You know, he's a big Pearl Jamfan and he was like, well, well,
here's what we talked aboutgetting the tickets.
(05:55):
And I said, when they, this wasweeks ago and I was like, dude.
I went on like the cheapestthere was like 300 bucks.
I said, I really, like, I'venever seen them live.
So I feel like that would be agreat experience.
But we also don't really have300 just laying around.
So what we can do is just clearout the garage, play some Pearl
Jam music or even, you know, godown the basement that we have
(06:16):
now and just listen to Pearl Jammusic.
And I mean, if we could hoot andholler a little bit if you want,
I don't know.
But anyway, after this, he waslike, no, if you thought that
was good, then, then we need tobuy tickets.
And I was like, yeah, no.
No, I'm not.
No, I'm not.
That's a lot.
It's a lot of freaking money.
And he was like, wait, you'venever seen them.
Like we've been married for 16years.
(06:37):
He's going to listen to this.
And I specifically said to him,I've never seen them
Chris (06:41):
recently.
Sarah (06:42):
Okay.
Next.
Chris (06:44):
Next.
Um, I sent Olivia and her friendon a quest.
Um, I've been moisturizing, I'vebeen using a specific
moisturizer on my face for apretty long time and I'm out of
it and they don't make itanymore.
So it's time to get a newmoisturizer.
And I also noticed that likesome, yeah, like there's,
(07:07):
there's just spots on my facethat have scars or, but maybe a
tinted moisturizer, likesomething to put on at night and
then a nice tinted moisturizerfor the daytime.
I So, I am wearing said tintedmoisturizer and I feel, feel
pretty good about it today.
It looks great.
It looks great.
I was going to
Sarah (07:24):
say, you look very, no, I was going to say voluminous, but
I don't think that's the rightword.
Chris (07:31):
Luminous.
I look radiant.
Sarah (07:33):
Luminous.
That's what it is.
I was going to say voluminous,but
Chris (07:37):
I don't think that's the right
Sarah (07:39):
word.
Luminous is what I meant.
Chris (07:41):
When I was heavier.
Uh, David, uh, David paid me acompliment, and he's like,
Sarah (07:47):
You look very voluminous.
Because
Chris (07:49):
he wanted to say voluptuous.
Sarah (07:51):
Even that! Even that! Nope.
Chris (07:54):
I was like, okay, thank you.
No, that's great, but
Sarah (07:57):
no.
Chris (07:59):
Voluminous.
All right, let's do thisepisode.
Are you going to talk about fanmail?
Sarah (08:05):
Fan mail! We got an awesome, uh, fan mail from Jamie
R.
No, her name's not Jamie R.
Well, yeah, it is.
I don't give a fuck.
Jamie R.
It was about our interview withMichelle Kapotz, which I
personally thought was awonderful interview.
Nice.
Chris (08:18):
It was really good.
Sarah (08:19):
Um, yeah.
So, she just said that it was,it was amazing stuff and just
giving me a little, what's theword?
You know?
Yeah, a little boost.
A little boost.
Um, about my honesty and, andvulnerability during that
episode, which is a little bitrough for me to watch the second
time over.
Right.
And very rough for me to leaveit in there.
(08:41):
That made me do a lot of this.
Anyway, so I appreciate forcalling that out and she said, I
hear you and I get you.
Cool.
Know that you're not alone.
'cause we've all fucked up stuffthat we tried and thought would
turn out different.
And yes, it's exhausting andcertainly not motivating to get
out there and do it again.
But you deserve to find yourthing and I know you're on the
right track, so
(09:03):
yay.
Yay.
And that made me feel awesome.
So thank you.
Thank you Jamie.
R And it's hard not to just saythe R, like, that's what I
wanted.
Say.
Chris (09:09):
You said it.
I just made a little note to.
Sarah (09:13):
Did I say?
Chris (09:14):
You did.
Yeah.
Sarah (09:15):
Fuck.
All right.
Well, anyway, I got
Chris (09:17):
it.
I'll fix
Sarah (09:18):
it.
And she loved how we ended itwith the message of, you know,
we're not alone and holdingspace for someone else is more
than enough.
So thank you, Jamie R.
Jamie R.
Love
Chris (09:32):
ya.
Sarah (09:33):
So that's it for our fan mail today.
Want to talk a little bit about,uh, Jumbo?
Chris (09:38):
Yeah.
Let's tell, let's tell someJumbo parenting stories.
Sarah (09:43):
Yeah, I thought that we might, because there's some fun
things that, that, that we coulddo.
Jumbo used to do.
The, the cops and robbers one, Idon't know if I was around for
that one.
I think that was before I wasborn because I just know that
from hearing it.
I don't ever remember it.
I recall it fondly.
Chris (09:58):
Just as a, just as a little note, uh, those of you
who have been with us for morethan a couple of episodes, um,
you'll quickly pick up on thefact that we can't remember more
than two episodes back.
Sarah (10:09):
I can't remember one episode back.
Chris (10:11):
I have no recollection of what we said in July last year.
I have vague memories.
of it until somebody reminds meof it.
So for those of you who might benewer, you're gonna love these
stories.
Sarah (10:22):
I just want to say it.
I was thinking of this too,like, fuck, we're gonna, we're
gonna repeat stories and shit,but we've had a lot of friends
in our lives like for a longtime that I'm pretty sure have
heard all of these stories athousand times and again, and
they still, they still lovethem.
Chris (10:38):
Still funny.
I was just gonna say.
And I mean, I laugh at
Sarah (10:41):
them every time and I've been hearing them and living
them for a very long
Chris (10:45):
time.
Right.
This is more of a tribute toJumbo than anything else we can
do because Jumbo will tell thesame story 50 times.
And I will
Sarah (10:53):
laugh just as hard.
Every time.
Chris (10:55):
Alright, so when Jumbo was a new dad, Uh, he would come
home from work and he would justwant a couple of minutes like
most new dads.
He would just want a couple ofminutes to kind of settle in,
read the paper, make thattransition from work life to
home life.
And, uh, Nita and I, uh, bothjust wanted a whole bunch of
(11:18):
attention because Nita had beentaking care of me all day.
And I had been, you know,dadless all day.
So I was like, Someone
Sarah (11:25):
knew, someone knew, someone knew.
I want to play,
Chris (11:27):
I want to play, I want to play, I want to play.
And I don't, I probably wasstill like this when I was, when
I was younger.
Like when I wanted to play, Iwanted to play.
So what Jumbo would do is uh, hewould, he made up this game and
he was a bank robber.
And he would come in, he would,he would hold up his uh, finger
guns.
And he would come into the bank,um, and this is all while he's
(11:48):
seated in a chair with the paperfolded in his lap.
So he'd have his finger guns andhe would tell me, Hey, you
freeze.
And I would freeze.
And, uh, he'd be like, allright, this is a holdup.
This is a holdup.
So it's a holdup and he's like,lay down on the ground, put your
face in the ground and, anddon't, don't move.
(12:09):
And I think this might've beenbefore I was able to count.
So he couldn't give me a numberto count to.
He would just, uh, tell me tolay down with my face in the
carpet and not move.
And then every once in a while,I would like look up or make
some sort of movement and hewould, he would yell it again.
Hey.
No moving.
And he'd have the finger guns.
I would peek up and he'd havethe finger guns.
Um, meanwhile, when I had myface in the carpet, Jumbo's just
(12:32):
reading the paper.
Sitting there turning the pagesof the paper.
Um, and I am on the floor withmy, my face in it.
And every, like, even if I,sometimes I wouldn't move and he
would go like randomly, Hey,
Sarah (12:49):
Hey! And you were, you were face down in shag
carpeting, I guarantee.
Like face down in smokesmelling, shag ass carpeting.
Chris (12:57):
There was a bunny in there that I made friends with,
there were tiny.
And it was
Sarah (13:01):
so itchy and scratchy.
Chris (13:03):
Carpet animals.
Right.
Like face buried in the car,like I couldn't know peripheral
vision cause there was shagcarpeting.
Sarah (13:10):
And you were, your one eye didn't work.
Chris (13:13):
Shut up.
They both work now.
So that is, uh, that is some,uh, jumbo parenting secrets.
So,
Sarah (13:19):
uh, if you're new, if you're new dad or mom, whatever,
this is a great way to get, uh,your toddler to leave you alone
for a little while.
Oh, we're playing.
Face down.
I'll play with you.
Yeah, we'll play face down.
I'm not sure it would haveworked with Owen though, because
I think he would have just, hewould have been like, fine, then
shoot me.
I mean, I'm done.
Chris (13:39):
I was a very compliant child.
I was the firstborn, like Iwanted very compliant.
Alright, um, other Jumbostories?
What are you doing with yourcamera there?
Sarah (13:49):
I'm sorry, I have to mute something.
Yeah, the only one I, uh, theonly other one I, well, there's
a couple, and it seemed, I feellike when I mention it, you
don't remember taking Daddy'sshoes off when we would get
home.
Uh uh.
And he was drunk.
I don't know.
Maybe mom, you'll have to giveus a, tell us when this started.
I don't know.
Cause I, I very much remembercoming home and daddy was drunk
(14:10):
and he'd flop down on the bed.
Girls, get my shoes off.
Maybe it was just Sarah.
Get my shoes off.
But yeah, there was the takingoff of the shoes and then, um, I
feel like something else thateverybody does that's well
known, but it just alwayscracked me up was the racing for
the beer.
I'll time you, just the specifictiming or, um, you girls race.
(14:31):
I'm not sure, I don't reallyremember us ever racing, though.
Do you?
Chris (14:34):
It would have been, it would have been unfair.
I mean, we're five years apart.
Sarah (14:37):
But I was always faster than you, so it doesn't matter.
Chris (14:40):
I would, which, which is really funny, because I was
like, oh, I would have beat theshit out of her.
Sarah (14:45):
I would have treated it like that, that race that we had
in Eaton Park, parking lot, andI would have just hip checked
you right the fuck out of myway.
Chris (14:52):
First off, it was at Denny's.
Sarah (14:54):
Oh yeah, it was.
Where we were
Chris (14:56):
racing in the parking lot.
Um, secondly, there was a timewhere I was significantly bigger
than you.
Like you couldn't have hipchecked me because you were a
tot legged baby.
Yeah, like
Sarah (15:06):
two years ago you were significantly bigger than me.
Shut
Chris (15:09):
up.
Sarah (15:10):
Okay, okay.
When you were like six and I wastwo.
Chris (15:15):
Yeah.
It wouldn't have been any fun.
And then I, I just, I, I chosenot to participate at a certain
point.
Right?
Cause I was like.
Yeah.
Sarah (15:22):
Like, this is dumb.
I'm not doing it.
Chris (15:24):
I'm 12.
But the
Sarah (15:25):
timing, and you always, like, at least I always set the
record.
But his counting was similar tohow I would count for Owen.
Like, okay, ready, go.
One.
Chris (15:37):
Continue on with my conversation, and the kid
finally returns with the beer.
That's a
Sarah (15:41):
new record! Yeah! It was a big celebration.
So, um, yeah, fun jumbo things.
That's really all I had.
Just some cute little basicstories for this week.
Chris (15:51):
Maybe that's the advantage of having, having two
children, is that you get toextend out the time where people
will play those kind of games.
Sarah (15:58):
Yeah.
That's probably why they had me,really.
Chris (16:02):
To get the beers.
Sarah (16:03):
It's like, I need a beer runner.
And eventually they'll havekids, so I'll have grandkids
that'll run and get me thebeers.
Chris (16:10):
This one is gonna be, this one is gonna figure out the
trick.
She won't play anymore.
Sarah (16:15):
I'm pretty sure that Owen will still play if you give him
five dollars.
Right.
Chris (16:19):
It comes with a monetary cost at this point.
It's
Sarah (16:21):
no longer a race for a record, it's a money thing.
I'll give you a
Chris (16:25):
dollar.
Yeah.
If it elapses.
Sarah (16:29):
Yep.
Nevermind.
Chris (16:31):
All right.
Let's get into, let's get intoour, uh, mental wellness, uh,
section here.
So again, you good there?
Are you hydrated?
Sarah (16:39):
Yeah.
That's the, I'm hydrated.
The I'm dehydrated and need adrink is,
Chris (16:43):
ugh, people are crying.
I'm definitely cutting out allof those noises.
And then you
Sarah (16:49):
take a, you take a little drink and you go, that means I'm
all hydrated.
Chris (16:53):
Gross.
Cutting it all out.
Um, the first rule of mastery.
is the book we are reading.
So, uh, last week, uh, we caughtup on chapters one through
three.
Um, a couple weeks ago we talkedabout Beethoven.
Sarah (17:08):
My favorite.
Chris (17:09):
Right.
And didn't
Sarah (17:10):
even know he was going deaf.
Chris (17:11):
Nope.
Nobody knew.
Sarah (17:14):
Pretty fucking amazing.
Chris (17:16):
Except for everybody.
So some of the things we talkedabout last week.
So chapter, uh, chapter one isall about sort of defining FOPO,
the fear of other people'sopinions.
And that's kind of the.
Moral of the story that B.
Thoven was talking about is thathe let, he let his fear of other
people's opinion of his deafnesshold him back when he could have
(17:37):
just been making beautiful musicduring the years where, uh,
where he was, you know, kind ofhiding from that.
And then we talked about themechanics of, of FOPO.
So kind of what FOPO is andisn't.
We as human beings have a, uh,innate.
sense of wanting to belong,wanting to be a part of the
pack, because that's how wesurvived a long time ago.
(17:59):
So, so as people, we'reconstantly looking around for
clues that we're, that we'refitting in, that we're part of
the group, that we're able tomaintain and keep those
connections.
And FOPO becomes a problem whenwe start thinking about what
might happen, not what ishappening.
We start thinking about whatmight happen and, and then we
prevent that pretend rejectionthat hasn't happened yet by
(18:23):
changing or modifying whatwe're, we're doing.
So a lot of the things that leadto FOPO are sort of a poor sense
of self, like relying completelyon those reactions to tell you
who you are as a person, like.
I think we talked about it.
Oh, yeah, we talked about it alot last time being a middle,
uh, middle school girl andlooking at how you dress and
(18:47):
being like, well, obviously Iwant to be in the group of cool
kids.
So I'm going to wear four pairsof slouchy socks with my high
tops.
Cause that's what did we,
Sarah (18:57):
did we get bigger shoes in that, in those times we just
bought bigger shoes.
Like, and now like, I hate, Ihate bigger shoes.
Like I feel like if I'm wearinga half a size bigger than what I
should be aware, like my actualsize, my feet look like boats
and I don't like it, but Idon't, that's just, it's amazing
to me.
We were wearing four pairs ofsocks,
Chris (19:16):
right?
Like
Sarah (19:18):
that's a lot of laundry too.
Chris (19:20):
Right.
And your feet had to be so hot.
So
Sarah (19:23):
fucking sweaty.
Oh my, my feet are sweatingright now.
I'm just thinking about it as areaction to this.
Like 17 pairs of socks and some,some plastic ass LA gears.
Chris (19:36):
LA gears.
Oh my God.
Like the black high tops.
My God.
So you had,
Sarah (19:41):
and then you had 17 shoelaces to go with them.
Like there
Chris (19:44):
was a lot of time.
We were
Sarah (19:46):
dumb.
Chris (19:46):
Right.
A hundred percent.
Stupid, stupid people.
But we were cool.
You were cool.
Sarah (19:51):
I still think that's a, maybe, maybe.
Chris (19:55):
Right.
So one of the other things thatkind of leads to, you know, fast
tracking yourself to some, um,holding, holding back behavior
based on, uh, FOPO is aperformance based identity.
You know, one of the thingswe're going to, well, the only
thing we're going to talk aboutthis week is, uh, identity.
We're going to talk about thatperformance based identity and
(20:18):
how we can use our identities toeither feed in to the FOPO or
take some steps to makeourselves sort of FOPO proof.
Right.
FOPOP, FOPOP, I love it.
FOPOP.
Yeah.
Um, so we're going to spend agood deal of time talking about
identity.
(20:38):
Identity goes back to what aremy values?
So I think everything that we'vetalked about in this podcast up
to this point has been, how do Ifigure it out?
How do I figure out what I'msupposed to be doing?
Like, who am I?
What are my values?
What I wrote in my notes is wheneverything crashes and burns,
what will I be left with?
So a lot of, a lot of the fearthat we feel when we're talking
(21:02):
about FOPO, a part of that basefear is anticipating what
happens when everything crashesand burns.
Like, what if I am ostracized?
What if I'm out here by myself?
What if these things happen?
What, uh, what am I left with?
And what you're left with isyour identity.
So it's the subjective sense ofself built on experiences,
beliefs, values, memories, andculture.
(21:24):
That's the, that's thedefinition that we're working
with here.
So there's a lot of, uh, there'sa lot of quotes and there's a
lot of storytelling in this bookthat I tend to like skip over.
Um, Oh, those
Sarah (21:36):
are the parts I like the most.
And that I note the most.
Chris (21:39):
The one in the beginning of the chapter is about a
basketball.
And I can't remember the name ofthe player, Carl Malone.
Is it Carl?
Yeah.
Sarah (21:47):
Mm hmm.
Yep, and he was playing againstthe Bulls.
So it was the Jazz and theBulls.
Chris (21:53):
No idea.
Yeah, not much of a basketball.
It was
Sarah (21:56):
Jazz and the Bulls and Scotty Pippen was passing him as
he was walking near the field.
free throw line.
And it's FIFO line.
And it's became English therefor a second.
It was 82, 82 with nine secondsleft and it's tied.
Like biggest thing in the world.
And this guy like Malone, I wantto say Mark Malone, but that's
not it.
(22:16):
Carl Malone.
Yeah.
He's like one of the best freefree throwers ever.
Anyway, he's walking in the lineand Scotty Pippin passes him and
they used to call Carl Malone.
What did they call him?
The postman?
Cause like the mail, he alwaysdelivered.
Like a mail, or the mailman.
Mailman.
Mailman.
And um, I guess it was a Sundaythey were playing on.
(22:37):
And uh, Scotty Pippin passed himup and was like, Melman doesn't
deliver on Sundays.
And dude missed both shots.
Chris (22:44):
Right.
I mean, these are, these arelike crazy stories and like what
that one gets back to is so muchof Carl Malone's identity on the
basketball court was based onthe fact that he delivered and
that Scottie Pippen is exactlythe right thing to fuck with
him.
That's kind of what.
What happens when we are basingour, our self worth on something
(23:07):
that's outside of our control.
If you base your identity onthat and someone guesses with
you, then you're like, what ifthat isn't who I am?
What if I'm not deliveringbecause it's Sunday?
Sarah (23:16):
I think it's important that, to note that it's not just
about free frost.
When we're looking for ouridentity, that it's a cumulative
thing.
It's not just one particularthing.
It draws from many aspects inour lives.
And we need to remember thatit's not one thing that defines
our identity.
Our identity is something, in mymind, that's fluid.
It's not something that staysthe same.
(23:38):
When I was 21, I wasn't able tosay, Hey, my identity is fluid.
Red Bull and vodka.
But yeah, my identity now as a46 year old mom is a lot
different than it was when I was21 ringing in the new year on
the Vegas strip,
Chris (23:55):
right?
Sarah (23:56):
Michael Gervais says identity can morph over time.
Based on the knowledge we gainabout ourselves through
experience and how we apply thatknowledge in our lives.
But we need to understand thatit's not just one thing.
And here's where he quotes oneof my favorites, the fight club
quote, and it's, you're not yourjob.
You're not how much money youhave in the bank.
You are not the car you drive.
You are not the contents of yourwallet and you are not your
(24:18):
fucking khakis.
Chris (24:19):
Right.
You are not your khakis.
So we're, we're obsessed in ourculture with performance.
Everything's data driven.
If I can't measure it, I can'timprove it.
If you just look at athletics,the statistics drive a lot of
decision making involved in, ineverything that we do.
As a person who deals in dataand numbers, I can't, can't
(24:41):
provide enough detail on datawhen I'm making decisions.
So everything, everything isdata driven, um.
Sarah (24:50):
And that's not just in work, like data driven
decisions, data driven this.
When you look at the socialmedia side of it, you're looking
at how many followers you have,the likes that you have, the
social reach that you have, canget really, really stuck.
Chris (25:01):
That's, that's the thing with performance based
identities and being able tomeasure so much is that
performance based identities doreally well.
When we can can measure aperformance based person and,
you know, through all of school,as long as I was doing well on
the tests, then everything elsefell by the wayside.
(25:22):
It doesn't matter.
Nothing else matters.
As long as I'm performing, aslong as I'm still getting good
grades, as long as my teachersare recognizing that I'm getting
good grades.
Yes, I'm doing great.
I'm doing great.
I'm doing better than that guy.
I'm doing better than that girl.
I'm still getting A's.
I am a genius.
Those work for a little bit, butthey're not sustainable.
(25:43):
I spent my time in graduateschool looking at my performance
on exams as the way to validatethat I was smart and I knew what
I was doing.
When I should have been lookingat, do I know what I'm doing?
Do I understand the materialthat I'm learning?
I'll give you a good example.
When I was in undergraduate, Iearned like a B minus in one of
my classes, maybe a C plus.
(26:04):
It was, it was a, it was agreat, I didn't know.
I did not want because I had,I'd screwed up like the first
couple of tests and, um, then Ijust never really recovered
after that.
So I, I, I earned a bad grade inthis particular class, but I was
on pretty good terms with theteacher and I'm pretty.
You know, engaging as a person.
(26:24):
And I was like, well, maybe thisisn't C plus or whatever.
Maybe it's just an A minus.
I mean, look at my final, youknow, you can see me improving.
I mean, in no way, shape or formdid I know this material at all.
I had crammed for each of thosetests right at the last minute.
miraculously done a little bitbetter on each one, right?
So when I got to graduateschool, I had to take that class
(26:46):
over again because I wasn'tgoing to understand anything
that came after that.
But the measure of everythingwas that great.
And that's really all thatmattered until I needed the
knowledge.
And then I was like, well, shit.
So, so basing your identity atme being a smart person in math
on whether or not I got a goodgrade.
Got a good grade is looking forthat external validation and it
(27:10):
didn't matter that I didn't knowthe stuff.
Somebody said I did a good job,so I did a good job.
When, when I really sat down andthought about it and that got
sort of pulled away, then it's aproblem for me because I need to
admit that I'm not a smartperson in math until I can
actually know that material.
It was a cumbling thing.
When we base our worth on ourperformance, we stop trying to
(27:34):
extend and stop trying to gobeyond what we already know.
Like, you lose that freedom totest yourself outside of, uh,
outside of those measurements.
Because you're so worried aboutbeing so perfect that you can't,
that you can't fail.
And looking, taking a hard lookat whether or not I knew that
material was essentiallyadmitting a failure.
(27:54):
I don't know it.
I'm going to have to take thisclass again.
Part of the thing that, that youwant to do is be able to, um,
Extend yourself throughlearning, uh, about the, the
shit.
Um, if you can commit tolearning and purpose, uh, you
can start to protect yourselffrom, from FOBO.
If you can, if you can stoplooking at it like, Oh, I'm not
even going to try that becauseif I try it and I fail, then,
(28:19):
then I'll confirm that I'm notany good in my personality
symbols.
Um, but if I can look at itlike, Alright, I'm not going to
think less of myself.
I'm going to, I'm going to trythis and then I'm going to take
what I've done here and learn,uh, extend my personality,
extend my identity, uh, and basemy identity on somebody who, who
(28:39):
can take that failure and learnfrom it.
And that's a purpose driven, uh,that's a purpose driven
identity.
No,
Sarah (28:47):
no.
It makes sense.
You're good.
Chris (28:49):
So that is where we can start to protect ourselves from
that FOPO.
What can I learn from thisversus who can I impress with
this?
So if you go back to the exampleof graduate school, look at me,
I'm, I have a very good GPA toshit.
I didn't do so good in thisclass and I really need to learn
it.
So I'm going to stick with my Bminus and maybe retake that
class when I should have retakenit instead of trying to do it
(29:10):
three weeks before graduateschool started.
Those are the ways that you canmove from performance to
purpose.
Looking from external tointernal and I think one of the
things that you wrote down isnot Thinking less of yourself,
but thinking of yourself lessoften like it doesn't it doesn't
matter what anybody else thinksabout you It's like It, it's
(29:31):
your ability to move yourselfforward, I think is the, the way
that I always think about it.
Does that make sense?
Sarah (29:37):
Yeah.
To learn from it.
I really like, how do youpronounce that word?
Bulwark?
Chris (29:41):
Yeah.
Sarah (29:43):
I really, cause I had to look it up.
I was like, what the fuck isthat?
It's a defensive wall.
So a bulwark against FOPO ishaving a strong sense of self.
I just wanted to read that so Icould say bulwark and try to
figure out how I can put it intomore of my vocabulary on a daily
basis.
Okay.
Um, the other thing I wrote hereis just something that goes
along with what I talked aboutearlier is that our identity is
(30:05):
something that's fluid thatwe're constantly addressing and
constantly looking into.
And I like what he wrote here.
There's a couple things, onethat he wrote, and then it was
another quote from someone else.
I didn't write down their name,but anchoring ourself, anchoring
our sense of self in discoveryis not a cop out to avoiding
committing to who we are.
It's simply an acknowledgementthat we change with time.
(30:28):
So we're always changing and wealways have to be aware of that.
And the quote is human beingsare works in progress that
mistakenly think they'refinished
Chris (30:36):
that part of it goes back to uh Your performance based
identities are based on a seriesof if then statements, right?
Like if I get any of this classthen i'm then i'm worthwhile
Then I am the person who issmart if I win wimbledon Then
i'm a good tennis player like ifthen if then if then if then
where purpose driven is more ofa You Let's, let's see what
(30:58):
happens.
This is what I want to do rightnow.
This is important to me rightnow.
Let me, let me see if I cancarry this forward.
Sarah (31:06):
You keep building on that, but achieving the
performance based objective,it's only temporary.
Chris (31:11):
Yeah.
Sarah (31:11):
And it's great when you, when you finish that, Oh, I won
the gold medal.
Fantastic.
What's next.
Like you're moving directly intosomething else and it's just
constant.
You're not going to have asustained satisfaction, which is
what we're talking about.
The performance based is notsustainable.
And then the other thing I wrotehere is the pursuit of
excellence and high performanceis important.
(31:31):
We learn about ourselves bydoing difficult things and
testing the boundaries of ourperceived limits.
When the core motivation ofpursuing excellence Excellence
is proving our self worth.
Mistakes, failures, opinions,and criticism are experienced as
threats instead of learningopportunities.
So it's not just about myself,but more about your awareness
(31:53):
and what you can learn from eachof these things.
Chris (31:57):
Yeah, if you, if you can commit to learning and purpose,
purpose is not a prerequisitefor high performance, but you
can use that purpose to buildresilience.
And I think that is the thingthat drives high performance,
being able to fail miserably andunderstand that I am still a
worthwhile person.
I mean, I think if you go backto April, this is what we were
(32:20):
talking about, because we weretalking about me going on job
interviews.
And And me for the first time inmy life, not having something a
hundred percent lined up andready to go.
For so long, my identity wasbased on me going to get this
dream job at this dream company.
And that's going to be the thingthat, that makes me who I am
going back to the whole thingcrashes and burns.
(32:41):
Right?
What's left?
I'm still smart at my job.
I'm still good at what I do.
I still have value outside ofwhat this company thinks about
me.
I still have value outside ofwhatever led to that decision
that they didn't hire me.
Those are things external to me.
And the thing that brings youthrough those things is I, I'm
still a good person.
I'm still just as smart as I wasyesterday.
(33:03):
Nothing about that rejectionreally changes fundamentally who
I am.
So yeah,
Sarah (33:08):
and you learn, you learn from that and that's the
resilience part of it, right?
And I, as I was reading, Ithought it was pretty cool that,
that this, um, would be comingout after our Michelle
interview, because I think a lotof it goes along what I talked
about.
I failed at so many fuckingthings.
I just don't even want to tryanymore.
But, it's not just about mefailing, it's about me learning
(33:28):
from those things, and it'sabout me digging deeper.
Yeah, so I've been working withMichelle since we did the
interview, and she's officiallymy coach.
And um, and yeah, it's beenwonderful, and I've, I've
learned a lot.
I've learned a lot about myidentity that I didn't even
realize was there.
Again, not think less ofyourself.
There's nothing wrong with me.
It's not the failure part that Ishould be focusing on.
(33:49):
I need to be learning, and I'mlooking at those experiences a
lot differently.
Chris (33:54):
Yes.
Yeah, I think, you know.
Sarah (33:57):
I think it's worth mentioning the Missy Franklin
story.
She was a gold medalist, and soshe was swimming forever.
And her parents did a reallygood job making sure that she
had an identity.
Trying to help her build thatidentity outside of swimming.
Like she even said, Missy, theirdaughter, I was Missy, the
(34:18):
friend, Missy, the student, allof those things before I was
Missy, the swimmer.
And so they instilled that inher throughout her whole life.
And she was very successful.
I forget exactly which Olympicgames it was, but then she went
on to Rio and I guess she onlywon one medal and it was, she
considered that to be a failure.
And at that point she wascompletely lost.
(34:38):
And that's because she'sherself.
identity was swimming.
That's all she identified.
That's how she lived her life atthat time.
So it was really hard for her tocome out of that and deal with
that failure because that's allthat she was.
And that's even someone who,again, has really strong parents
who were trying to instill inher that that's not all she was.
(35:00):
Sometimes outwardly, we wereproviding as a parent, we're
providing what we need for ourkids, but sometimes Sometimes it
doesn't totally sink in, so westill need to be around because
sometimes they need help pickingup the pieces.
Chris (35:14):
Right.
I mean, I, we, we talk about itall the time with the emphasis
that we put on, on our littlestudent athletes.
Not playing soccer anymore afterI was done playing soccer is
hard.
That's a hard thing to give up.
And it did kind of mess with mefor a little bit.
Like part of my identity wasbeing on the soccer team.
(35:34):
And then all of a sudden Iwasn't.
Part of this chapter also talksabout people who have had FOPO
give themselves built inexcuses.
And I do this all the time.
I will leave a task up until thevery end and then rush through
finishing it.
And then if somebody criticizesit, I'm like, I left it until
the very end.
(35:55):
So, of course it's not perfect,but it would have been, it would
have been in my pretend realitywhere I actually tried and, and
gave a shit about doing a goodpresentation.
Sarah (36:04):
That makes me think of how I, like, and I, I would
still say it.
I, my soccer, what's the wordI'm looking for?
My soccer talent, I feel like Ikind of really stopped growing
at the rate that I could have atprobably 14 or 15.
And I always say that, like, I'malways like, yeah, I could have
been so much better.
I could have done so much moreif I didn't basically give up
then.
(36:25):
But, I mean, I don't know.
It's hard.
And it's still stuff, and, andworking with Michelle, it's,
it's odd that it's stuff that'shard for me to talk about
because I was 18 when I quit, or19 when I quit.
Like, whatever.
Um, and it was so long ago, andin my brain, it was fairly
insignificant.
But, um, 46 and just learningthat it was actually a really
Chris (36:46):
challenging, hard for you to do.
impactful decision to make.
I, I will fill everyone in.
She's crying a little bit.
So we're just going to, I'm justgoing to talk until she, she
gets it together.
Sarah (37:01):
Because if I start talking, then I hoot and I'm
like, daddy, and then I getreally, really ugly crying.
So, um, yeah, but it was very,very significant part of my life
that I've never given the timeto.
Chris (37:14):
When we say that this shit is hard, this is what we're
talking about.
We can have superficialdiscussions about term papers
and presentations.
Uh, or we can, we can have thesediscussions about what building
an identity is really about andwhat we, we want to change and
do differently about our, ourown identities.
Uh, what I, what I wrote down inmy notes here is we will do a
(37:35):
lot of fucked up shit to protectour identity.
And some of that is really kindof counterintuitive.
Like I'm not going to try realhard because it's so important
to me to cling to the, whatcould have been that I won't, I
won't make myself vulnerableenough.
To actually learn and get betterat it.
(37:56):
You will have chosen to preserveyour identity rather than to use
the challenge as an opportunityto learn something about
yourself.
That is the soul of what we'retrying to get at it.
Not just, not just through thisbook, but in this podcast and in
our, in our lives.
Right.
That's why it touches so manylike tender nerves is that this
is the hardship.
(38:17):
This is the shit that makes adifference.
And
Sarah (38:19):
yeah,
Chris (38:21):
yeah, we could protect our identities by saying, Oh,
everything's fine here, but whenwe, when we can do what we just
did and open up and be like,yeah, I, maybe I messed that up.
How do I move forward from that?
Like that's the, that's thestuff that you can use to fight
off the FOPO.
Sarah (38:36):
Yeah.
That's a long time to not.
In my mind, it's not thatsignificant.
I can only imagine like majorcovering that up.
So fuck.
It's something that I was inworking with her that I was,
wait, it was a big part of itand I never addressed it.
I never talked about it.
You know, people ask, why'd youquit soccer?
Well, because I wanted to, todrink and smoke.
(38:59):
That's not why I quit soccer.
I'm still, I still don't knowwhy I quit soccer, but that was
the easy answer.
Chris (39:04):
Right.
That's the, that's the hardhomework that, that we all have
is to look at it.
And I think for me, one of thebig things was being able to.
understand that if I keepcomparing myself to people,
like, and I think that's, that'sthe, that's also the part.
That's the
Sarah (39:23):
awareness.
It's just asking thosequestions.
It's stopping and being a littlemore aware of what's going on
instead of just going with thatknee jerk reaction.
Chris (39:34):
Like you said, that's that awareness piece.
That's that first part of it.
Being able to, you know, prettymajor regrets about how long I
sat in my career, not trying ashard as I could have.
Not trying to be first, nottrying to be more, not trying to
to do things that I thoughtwould kind of move myself and,
(39:55):
and not put myself out there,maybe is the best way to say it.
Sarah (39:59):
I'm not gonna put myself out there because of faux pas.
Chris (40:01):
Right.
I think that's like thedefinition of it.
I am not going to speak up.
I am not going to, I'm not goingto try.
And then when, when I finallygot to the point where something
clicked and I was like, itdoesn't matter.
I'm still going to
Sarah (40:14):
be
Chris (40:14):
good at this job regardless
Sarah (40:16):
of
Chris (40:17):
who gets that promotion, who, who gets to deliver the,
the monthly slides.
It doesn't have as much of animpact.
And I think when you can havethat awareness, you can really,
you can really fight off yourFOPO.
I'm not solely based on this onething, and I think the rest of
the book and the rest of ourexperiences with this is going
to be about getting back to thatidentity.
(40:38):
What is it about you that, thatmakes you, uh, that makes you
who you are and what measures doyou use?
So going all the way back to,um, the subtle art of not giving
a fuck, how you measure asuccessful life is going to be
the thing that keeps you from.
You know, putting yourself outthere and doing great things.
(41:00):
It's going to keep you frombeing resilient in times where
shit just burns to the ground.
It's going to make it longer foryou to recover from those
things.
And it's going to make you morefearful and make sure that those
things never happen.
I think the last thing I have inhere is the Ted Lasso.
When we're, when we're talkingabout measuring success, success
externally versus internally.
(41:22):
Um, it's not about the wins andthe losses.
It's about making these youngmen decent human beings.
It's about the lessons that youlearn from, from those losses.
And if you can base youridentity on something that isn't
measured externally, like winsand losses, that you can
actually appreciate those lossesfor what they are, which is
opportunities to learn and dobetter.
Sarah (41:43):
Absolutely.
Chris (41:44):
I'm really, really looking forward to like the next
couple of chapters.
So next week, if you guys aregoing to read along, we're going
to do five and six.
Thanks.
And then we're going to get intothe part two.
So I think part one is justsetting, setting everything up
on, you know, some things thatcan prevent you from falling
into FOPO and then we'll getsome practical, practical advice
(42:05):
and some knowledge in the, inthe other parts.
So.
That's what I got for you.
Sarah (42:10):
Well done.
I enjoyed it.
I enjoyed this chapter.
Um, and I think the rest of thisis going to be fun.
Interesting.
There's a lot of digging.
Yeah, it's
Chris (42:22):
hard, but it's so worth it.
I mean, I think you can kind ofget a flavor of FOPO and how
damaging and, and
Sarah (42:30):
Yeah.
How
Chris (42:30):
hard it is to live that kind of life and how thrilling I
don't think we
Sarah (42:35):
realize, and it comes back to awareness, if you're not
aware of the FOPO, you have noclue how much it really is
hurting you.
And once you become aware ofthat, it's, it's such a game
changer.
It really is.
Chris (42:47):
Yeah.
Sarah (42:47):
Um, and just thinking about FOPO versus, you know, uh,
January 2nd, 2024 versus January2nd, 2025.
Oh
Chris (42:57):
my God.
Sarah (42:58):
Like, I mean, life is a lot different.
Chris (43:02):
It really is.
And life is a
Sarah (43:03):
lot different because of what we've been doing.
Chris (43:05):
Yes.
Sarah (43:06):
Um, so I mean, that's, that's a huge win and we, we're
just going to continue to do it.
Chris (43:12):
Yeah, I dig it.
I dig it.
Sarah (43:13):
And it kind of started with FOPO.
Chris (43:15):
It really, it really did.
Thank you, Dan Harris.
Yeah.
Thank you, Mark Manson.
I think once, it's like, um,what's the, what's the movie,
Better Off Dead?
Did you ever see this movie?
Um.
Sarah (43:26):
I want my 2.
Right.
That's that one, right?
Chris (43:29):
I'm real sorry your mom blew up, Ricky.
A great 90s movie.
I think what One of the mostpowerful Oh, in every
Sarah (43:37):
movie that John Cusack is in, I'm sorry, I don't care what
he wore in any movie, but everyand I will see the background of
the correct movie, and I knowhe's in it, and I'm in the right
movie, but no matter what, he'salways wearing that trench coat.
Right,
Chris (43:50):
he has a boombox with him in every movie.
From Say
Sarah (43:52):
Anything?
Doesn't matter, like, could beso, like, forever ago, or like
yesterday, whatever, that'salways what he's wearing.
Chris (43:59):
Right, 100%.
Sorry, go ahead,
Sarah (44:00):
side note.
Chris (44:00):
One of the Like that, that movie has a lot of good
themes and especially when itcomes to, comes to Fopo, which
is weird because it is like athrowaway comedy movie from the,
from the eighties.
But his French girlfriend says,I think if you get a taste of
success, you're going to findout how much you like it.
(44:21):
And I think Fopo is one of thoselittle successes, like
understanding and being aware ofit is one is one of those
successes that just leads into aricher life experience.
So.
I'm real sorry your mom blew up,Ricky.
Also,
Sarah (44:39):
a
Chris (44:40):
sense of empathy is important.
Sarah (44:42):
Yeah, yeah.
All right.
Okay.
Well, I think that's wrapping itup for today.
We will talk to you guys nextweek.
Chris (44:48):
All right.
Sarah (44:49):
Later boners.
Love you.
Bye.
Chris (44:51):
Love you.
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Betrayal: Season 4
Karoline Borega married a man of honor – a respected Colorado Springs Police officer. She knew there would be sacrifices to accommodate her husband’s career. But she had no idea that he was using his badge to fool everyone. This season, we expose a man who swore two sacred oaths—one to his badge, one to his bride—and broke them both. We follow Karoline as she questions everything she thought she knew about her partner of over 20 years. And make sure to check out Seasons 1-3 of Betrayal, along with Betrayal Weekly Season 1.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.