August 20, 2024 • 37 mins
The main topic of conversation is concerning in what way can being religious be a negative in our relationships with others? And in representing Jesus Christ, how can we be sure we make a positive instead of a negative impact?
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(00:00):
Is that good?
(00:10):
Yep.
Okay.
All right.
Good morning, Miss Debbie.
Good morning.
How are you?
I'm doing well.
Good.
Early in the week.
It is, yeah.
We're off our usual day.
That's right.
Well, we've got another important conversation to have.
Okay.
We started the Sermon on the Mount series this Sunday, which is near and dear to my heart.
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I've done this series many times.
Like I say, I've preached on the Sermon on the Mount for close to seven months, multiple
times.
Wow.
And it usually bores people to death.
So we're going to have a conversation about our introductory sermon on the Summit series.
Okay.
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Yeah.
And you've got some hot topics to bring to the table.
I think I do.
Just one, I think this time, but your title is Be Perfect as Your Heavenly Father is Perfect.
And you talked a lot about perfect meaning mature and that God wants to present everyone
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mature in Christ.
And part of that maturity is how we reveal ourselves to other people.
And one of the statements, which I'm getting to the question this kind of a long way around,
is devout Christians make others miserable.
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And I can think of devout in two ways.
I can think of it as a positive, but also as a negative.
That's what I wanted a little more clarity on.
First of all, what is devout?
And then how can it be, I guess, used, but not productively?
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Yeah.
So the translation that you brought up, mature, that's correct.
Now I don't like to use that word because so many people use it as like a pejorative
kind of thing a lot of times.
Well, you're so immature.
You know what I mean?
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Yes.
That's not very mature.
And so I don't like to use that because people use it in that pejorative kind of a way.
So I prefer the term complete or a finished product for that reason.
But and you know, you understand being a teacher, how frustrating it is when a lot of times
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you try and communicate clearly and people hear things.
You know what I mean?
Did I really say that?
And so I would say, you know, the super religious types.
And I always like to say we take those comments in their context because with the Sermon on
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the Mount, the word that's repeated over and over again, blessed means happy.
So to me, what I'd like to frame the conversation around is religious people who at the end
of the day really aren't happy.
Okay.
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You know, and these types of people tend to be really concerned about the rules and enforcing
the rules.
And then it seems like it's their job finding flaws in other people.
You know, and so in the Sermon on the Mount, one of the things Jesus talks about is taking
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the plank out of your own eye before you take the speck out of other people's eye.
And you hear religious people say all the time, we're not supposed to judge.
That's not what the Sermon on the Mount teaches.
The Sermon on the Mount teaches, judge yourself first.
And then you can see clearly to judge correctly.
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So Christians are commanded to judge and to be excellent at judging, but to judge correctly.
And so super religious types of people just make other people miserable because they're
always looking for the flaws in other people.
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And they wind up calling things sin that the Bible does not really call sin, you know?
And I can tell you lots of stories.
I'll tell you one.
Okay.
I have a really good friend who's a pastor now in a Baptist church, but he grew up Wesleyan
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holiness.
Now, do you know anything about these groups?
No.
Okay.
So you've got Pentecostal holiness, which is all the charismatic stuff.
And then you've got Wesleyan holiness.
So they're anti the gifts of the Holy Spirit types of thing, but they have the same rules.
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So women can't cut their hair.
They have to wear long dresses and long sleeves.
The men have to wear sleeves below their elbows.
They've got all of these rules that are really at the end of the day kind of nonsense.
But it's this culture of just strict discipline.
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And kids who grow up in that culture tend to grow up and really rebel hard because they've
lived their life under this oppressive system of rules that intuitively they know is nonsense.
And so they just blow off all religion and go hard in the world because they're frustrated.
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They've been oppressed and they want to have a, they want to live a fun life, you know,
because life has been kind of miserable.
So one of the stories my friend tells is that his grandfather was a preacher and he goes
to one of these churches to be a guest speaker and he's got a pen in his shirt pocket and
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the pen has a gold clasp on it.
And before he gets up to preach, the preacher that's invited him goes up to him and says,
brother, don't you think that pin in your pocket is kind of ostentatious?
You know, because it has a gold clasp.
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It's just silly.
Now that's an extreme, but that principle plays out in more subtle ways.
A lot of times with people who are super religious, you know, and they're off, they're always
keeping everyone around them on guard from being criticized for something ridiculous.
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Oh, you went and saw that movie.
Do you really think the Lord would approve of that?
You know what I mean?
Yes.
Back in the day, religious people would criticize others for playing cards, card games, not
poker, just playing with cards.
Just playing cards.
Yeah.
Well, those face cards have an image on them.
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That's idolatry.
You know?
Yes.
It reminds me of the Pharisees.
Exactly.
And all their rules around not working on Sunday.
And it was just what, 300 and some rules about you couldn't spit or move if the dirt moved.
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Yeah.
Yeah, that's the perfect example.
And so, you know, a lot of times people will say, I'm not religious, I'm spiritual.
Well, that's a nonsensical statement.
Yeah, I don't know what that means.
Right.
And you know, the book of James says, it refers to pure religion.
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So everybody's religious.
But James says your religion needs to be pure.
It needs to be devoid of nonsensical things that the Lord really never intended for people's
lives or behavior that makes other people miserable.
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You know, which is what the Pharisees function to do.
The Pharisees erected barriers, false barriers to people coming into a relationship with
God and they made other people's lives miserable.
You know, and that's not what God wants.
Right.
So.
So is part of that, like in the Pharisees, staying in control and as an authority?
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I mean, did that keep others from becoming or being able to be a Pharisee?
I mean, not that you would aspire to that, but you know that they were considered the
religious leaders of the day.
They were.
Until Jesus came.
And when you look at that, we tend to look at it from the lens of our experience and
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we think of them as just religious leaders.
And what we fail to realize is they weren't just religious leaders.
There was no division of church and state in the nation of Israel.
So they were also the political leaders.
They were the religious and political leaders.
And so you have to think of them protecting their power from that perspective as well.
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And nobody wants to give up power.
Right.
And so it's both of those things mixed into one.
But I think also when it comes to relating to God, it's easy to slip into that mindset
of getting obsessed on rules and behaviors that we think are pleasing to God.
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When at the end of the day, the Bible says God's intent is to bring us freedom from the
rules.
Think about this.
This triggers people a lot of times when I say it.
I had some Mennonites that I triggered when I said this.
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There are two commandments in the Bible.
Right?
And then beyond that, there are only three rules.
This is from the Book of Acts, like 15, I believe.
Don't have sex with someone you're not married to.
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Don't eat food sacrificed to idols.
And the other one has to do with idolatry.
And this is it.
I mean, think about that.
Now there's all kinds of principles.
So don't get drunk.
The Bible doesn't have any rules about drinking alcohol.
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It just has rules against drunkenness.
Don't be a glutton.
These are principles.
Well, what does that mean?
What is a glutton?
And what is overeating?
If I eat one cupcake, am I sinning?
Versus two?
You know what I mean?
Right.
So the principles that we kind of think about at the end of the day, you know, guard your
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health.
Don't be overly indulgent.
There's a lot of freedom in the Bible.
And so to me, like religious people need to be champions of freedom.
You know, in my household, I only have three rules for my kids.
One of them is kind of a joke.
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So and I've told my kids this from the time they could understand the English language.
Rule number one, no hitting in the face or the genitals.
Now that rule wouldn't work for a lot of people's kids because they're overly aggressive and
probably need more boundaries than that.
But for my household, this rule works.
You know, rule number two, do what you're told when you're told.
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Now that rule is enforced every time from the word go.
Okay.
So we don't have rules that we don't enforce.
This is one of the reasons I'm against rules because if you make a rule, you have to enforce
it.
That's true.
Yeah.
You know?
Yes.
So do what you're told when you're told.
And then rule number three, which is three rules in one, but that's just how I roll.
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No lying, no stealing, no cheating.
Nice.
Yeah.
And that's it.
Other than that, you're free to do whatever you want to do.
And I'm not always looking over my kid's shoulder.
What are you looking at?
What are you doing?
You know what I mean?
Yes.
That's just oppressive and it doesn't work.
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Now if you're like me, you might've been different, but you know, growing up, my parents, whatever
rules they had that I didn't agree with, I did what I wanted to do anyway.
I was just sneaky about it.
You know what I mean?
Yes.
So rules don't work.
You know what I mean?
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And so as Christians, we need to understand there's tremendous freedom.
You know, this is one of the reasons why I, looking back, I really like the Methodist
Church.
Even when it was United Methodist, I can tolerate liberals because they understand a lot of the
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things that we make such a big deal about really at the end of the day are not that
big of a deal.
And I really appreciate the freedom.
You know, the United Methodist mantra was open hearts, open doors, open minds.
And I find a nice comfortable home with that mantra.
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And that's a good mantra.
Now they took it too far, you know, because at the end of the day, one of the rules of
the Bible is don't have sex with someone that you're not married to.
And marriage is clearly defined as being between one man and one woman in a lifelong monogamous
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relationship.
It's always been the case.
Why all of a sudden, six years ago, you know what I mean?
Do we think we need to redefine what that means?
You know, so freedom is one of the clear priorities of God for his people.
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And we need to learn to be reasonable about how we think about the expectations that we
place on others.
Now there might be things that are true for you that you need to be careful about.
For instance, if you're diabetic and you really need to be careful about how much sugar you
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ingest.
Okay.
Right.
And then you see me eating a ding dong and you want to judge me for it?
You know?
Well, hey, that might be a problem for you, but it's not a problem for me.
I'm going to eat up and I might eat too.
And you know what?
That's okay for me.
Yeah.
And so same things with things like alcohol.
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You know, there are lots of Christian groups that have these really strict judgmental attitudes
towards people who drink alcohol.
Well, listen, that might be a problem for you and I need to be sensitive about that,
but it's not a problem for me.
So and you know, you can go on down the line.
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Right.
How that works.
So I guess thinking about devout then, I guess you could take anything to the extreme.
We've just given it a name, I guess, but you could take anything to the extreme.
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But something that we as Christians then need to be conscious of is how we are perceiving
others and how they're perceiving us.
Because it is easy to something that I feel I need to do in my walk, projecting that onto
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you or judging you around that when maybe that's not part of your calling.
Yeah.
Or part of what God's asking you to do.
Right.
Yeah.
And that goes so far down the line.
You know, as a pastor, I really want every person to come to church every Sunday.
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And that's not reality.
You know, and the Bible talks about people who are weaker in their face.
And I shouldn't judge other people based upon the standards that I've personally received
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in my calling and in my walk.
And as Christians, we need to be merciful to other people whose faith might not be as
strong.
And God gives people in the Book of Romans, it talks about God gives each person a measure
of faith.
Those measures aren't all the same.
And so we shouldn't judge people whose faith might not be as strong as ours.
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And we should value every person's faith regardless of, you know, how strong or weak it might
be.
Faith is faith, and it's valuable and important regardless of what measure each person carries.
Now, we're all called to develop our face, you know, but some person is going to have
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a greater measure, some person is going to have a lesser measure.
But we need to value and respect each person's faith regardless of what measure they've received,
you know.
Right.
And when I think about the Sermon on the Mount, that does give us some areas that we need
to focus on.
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And so that'll be upcoming.
But going back to because I told you when I called you on the phone, you know, I worry
about this because sometimes you when you try to witness to someone, it is not well received.
Or you get a response you weren't expecting.
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And I think, well, you know, what worked for one may not work for another.
I think you have to meet people where they are for sure and not project yourself onto
them.
So what would you say to Christians to be able to keep themselves in the right frame
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of mind wherever they are, whoever they're with?
So girl, you are preaching to the choir when it comes to that topic, because I'm a pastor.
And so every time I meet new people, you know, and most pastors that I know are like this,
I try and avoid the topic like the plague.
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So what do you do for a living?
I'm in public service, you know, because immediately when you drop that, you know, line, I'm a
pastor, it soils the relationship and you see this wall go up, you know, oh, well, I
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go to church here, you know, and you know, they might have went there once in their life,
you know, but they're giving you the stiff arm to keep you from evangelizing them, you
know.
And so I try and avoid that topic.
I try and find things of common interest outside of like religion, because I actually am interested
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in other things besides the Bible, believe it or not.
And so I would say now this is going to apply to friendships, to marriages, to parenting.
Okay.
When it talks, when the Bible talks about two commandments, love the Lord your God with
all your heart, mind and strength, love your neighbors yourself.
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One of the things we need to keep in mind is I am going to make it my priority and taking
pleasure in this relationship in this person.
Okay.
And so this is one of the things that where religious people fail.
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They're really concerned about correct behavior, correct understanding about the Bible, following
the rules, but before taking pleasure in their relationships with people.
Okay.
You know, and so when the Bible talks about being happy, being blessed, being happy, I
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am a happy person.
I take pleasure in my relationship with God.
I love God, you know, and he loves me.
I start with that understanding and then I bring that to my relationships.
I recognize that you're created in the image of God and there are things within you that
God has cultivated that bring great joy to the world.
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And that's what I'm going to dial in on, not your flaws, not your shortcomings.
I'm going to dial in on the things that make you beautiful and that bring gifts to the
world and to other people.
And that's what I'm going to highlight and emphasize, you know, and so for religious
people I would say that's where you really need to live your life.
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Are you familiar with Dr. Phil?
On TV?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So he's a West Texas boy.
He brings some good country and Western wisdom to the world, you know, and so there's a
couple of things I like to talk about when it comes to Dr. Phil and his advice that he
brings for religious people.
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A lot of times Methodists put the second commandment in first place and so what that tends to do
is it causes them to be more concerned about what other people think than what they should.
And so when they're criticizing their kids, their spouse, what they're really worried
about is what other people think at the end of the day.
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And Dr. Phil gives some good advice about that.
He says, you know, you'll stop worrying about what other people think about you whenever
you realize how little they do.
I like that.
Now think about that.
That's true.
You know, so stop being so worried about your image, your reputation, you know, you know,
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when you're a pastor, you can really become a captive to worrying about your reputation
because you live in a fishbowl.
And I'm blessed with having a dad who really could not care less what other people think.
And so I inherited that trait.
I really don't care what I mean.
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That's not true.
I care what other people think, but I don't worry about what other people think.
Okay.
You know, yeah.
And that's why I'm free to say the things that I say in my sermons that I know are not
going to be received well a lot of times, but the other thing that Dr. Phil advises
people and this is a leadership principle, you really need to be careful about offering
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up criticism to other people.
A good leader, whether your parent, a spouse, whatever, 90% of their words are going to
be positive and affirming.
And they're going to be careful that only 10% of their words are going to be corrective
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and critical.
Okay.
Because if you get that mix out of balance, you're just going to push people away.
People aren't going to listen to you and they're not going to respect you.
Because if you don't know somebody loves you and values you, you are not going to respect
them.
You know?
Yes.
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And so these are good words of advice when it comes to representing Jesus Christ in
our relationships.
And this is why the Bible, in the Sermon on the Mount, it says, blessed are those who
hunger and thirst for righteousness.
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So we are absolutely to care about righteousness, both in ourselves, in ourselves first and
in other people second.
And then it also says blessed are the merciful.
So it's learning to keep those two things in balance, which is the trick.
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And the Bible also says, mercy triumphs over judgment.
You know?
Yes.
And this is why I've really appreciated being a Methodist, even though it has been a home
for even progressive liberalism.
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Classic liberalism is what the United States is founded upon.
It's the root word of liberty.
And so we should all embrace classic liberalism, but even though it's been tainted with progressive
woke nonsense, it's still a home where the priority is mercy.
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You know?
Right.
And so that's a good thing.
And we all need to embrace that and practice that in our, you know, towards ourselves and
towards others.
At the same time, we don't forget blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness.
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You know?
Yes.
Yeah.
And all that's coming ahead in the sermons to come, right?
It is.
And you know, we're going to cram a lot of information into a six week series and I'm
just laying the groundwork for maybe a couple of years down the line, you know, doing and
more extended.
But, you know, the Sermon on the Mount, you've got the Beatitudes.
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These are the flowers that God wants growing in the garden of every person's heart.
And then he's going to warn about specific sins that God wants us to wage war against.
And then we're going to talk about the practices, the classic Christian practices by which we
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fertilize the good things.
And then we like, I compare it to a lawn.
In a lawn, you know, you want to grow grass, say Bermuda.
And so you fertilize the Bermuda, but you've got this stuff called Weed and Feed.
And that also contains things that kill the bad things.
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And so the Christian practices, they fertilize the good things and they kill the bad things.
And the more densely that Bermuda grows, the more, you know, weeds can't grow because they
don't find space to have life, you know?
And so really the Sermon on the Mount is those three things.
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These are the fruit or the flowers that God wants growing in the garden of our heart.
The weeds that grow in every person's heart.
Now my heart might grow one weed better than yours does, but these weeds grow in every
person's heart.
You need to wage war against these things.
And then the practices that will help us grow the good things and kill the bad things.
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And you know, here's the thing.
Weeds grow very easily, don't they?
They do.
You don't have to work at growing weeds, you know?
And this is how the Christian life is.
If we're going to grow the good things, it will only happen if we do it on purpose.
If we're intentional about it.
And the weeds are going to grow all by themselves.
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So.
I like that.
So I think in summary, something that I can take away from this is loving God first.
And if I don't have the love of God in my heart, then I need to be careful what I'm
saying to someone else anyway.
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Right on.
But the second one is loving that other person as myself.
So whatever I'm saying to them, would I want to hear that being said to me?
And is it based under the mercy and love of Christ?
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And that there's a lot to unpack in that statement.
If you don't love yourself well, you're not going to be able to love other people well.
You know?
And so we need to learn to receive the mercy and the grace that God offers in Jesus Christ.
You know?
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Amen.
And if we're not capable of doing that, we're going to be miserable.
And we're going to make other people miserable.
You know?
Yes.
And what was the other thing you said?
Remind me what you said.
Is what I'm saying to someone else what I would want to be hearing?
That's it.
So you know, a lot of times people who like to think of themselves as tough people, well,
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I just tell it like it is.
Okay.
Well, that's not godly.
You know, we don't need to think about speaking things that are truthful first.
We need to think about speaking things that are helpful first.
Something might be true, but it's not helpful.
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And a lot of times people speak things that are true that at the end of the day are hurtful
and they really don't help anyone.
And so whenever we place the priority on mercy, that will help us to be more disciplined and
have perspective to speak words that are helpful and build other people up and don't tear them
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down.
Yes.
I like that.
Yeah.
The word humble comes to mind.
Absolutely.
Well, good.
Well, I appreciate you going into that.
I think we talked about a lot today and I look forward to the upcoming sermons too as
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we go through there.
I did see the chosen and one of theirs was him preparing, Jesus preparing for his speech
and the work he put into that.
And I know that's part of the sermons.
Yeah.
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But it was, it's really, it does bring it a different level of understanding even though
you know there's artistic creativity involved, but it sure does, I don't know, make it heartwarming
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to see and to think about.
You know, I'm all about that.
Tell the story, tell it with creativity and imagination, you know?
And so this is a little bit off topic, but we talked about it a little bit, how the Pharisees
weren't just religious leaders, they were political leaders.
There was no separation of church and state.
So when you think about the sermon on the Mount, Jesus refers to it as the gospel of
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the kingdom.
And it says he's going from town to town throughout Galilee preaching this message.
And so you can't just think of it as Jesus the evangelist.
You can also think of it as like a political campaign tour.
Okay.
So the gospel of the kingdom is Jesus political platform by which he's going to rule the nations.
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And that should be very encouraging.
Yeah, you know, so Jesus is doing both of these things in one and he's going around.
And the reason that Christianity and Jesus are so controversial is because his political
platform is opposed to both the Pharisees and the Sadducees who were the conservatives
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and the liberals of his day.
And he's calling them both out and demonstrating how his political platform is superior to
both of theirs and establishing that he is the chosen one who has the right to assume
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leadership not only of the nation of Israel, but all the nations.
Wow.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's good.
Yeah.
Puts a whole different level on it, doesn't it?
It does and it helps, but it helps people to understand why Jesus was such a controversial
person.
Why the disciples at the end of the day, every one of them were killed.
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Yes.
And the apostle John was not killed, but he probably wishes he would have been killed
based upon the suffering that he was subjected to because of the controversy around the message
of Jesus Christ.
Wow.
Yeah.
Good to remember, right?
Yep.
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And it's really good to take ownership of because that's coming for all of us.
This is one of the things the book of Revelation is warning us about and fortifying us against
is the fact that the message of Jesus Christ once again is going to become the great controversy
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of the nations.
And we're going to have to make a decision about whether or not we're willing to pay
the price for taking ownership of the message in spite of the controversy.
Wow.
Well, we have to prepare for that, don't we?
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Yes, ma'am.
Yeah.
Yes.
So the more we practice now, the more we do what we believe God is calling us to now,
the better prepared we'll be when persecution increases.
No doubt about it.
No doubt about it.
Good.
So, yeah.
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Well, thanks for coming in today and bringing your thoughts about the message to everyone
who watches.
And I love these conversations.
I'd do them even if nobody watched them.
Okay.
Sounds good to me.
All right.
Well, thank you.
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And I look forward to this series.
Good.
Amen.
That's good to hear.
Because it's tough, tough content.
Yeah.
All right.
Thank you.
Thank you.
ghan.cz
Is that good?
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Yep.
Okay.
All right.
Good morning, Miss Debbie.
Good morning.
How are you?
I'm doing well.
Good.
Early in the week.
It is, yeah.
We're off our usual day.
That's right.
Well, we've got another important conversation to have.
Okay.
We started the Sermon on the Mount series this Sunday, which is near and dear to my heart.
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I've done this series many times.
Like I say, I've preached on the Sermon on the Mount for close to seven months, multiple
times.
Wow.
And it usually bores people to death.
So we're going to have a conversation about our introductory sermon on the Summit series.
Okay.
(00:53):
Yeah.
And you've got some hot topics to bring to the table.
I think I do.
Just one, I think this time, but your title is Be Perfect as Your Heavenly Father is Perfect.
And you talked a lot about perfect meaning mature and that God wants to present everyone
(01:19):
mature in Christ.
And part of that maturity is how we reveal ourselves to other people.
And one of the statements, which I'm getting to the question this kind of a long way around,
is devout Christians make others miserable.
(01:43):
And I can think of devout in two ways.
I can think of it as a positive, but also as a negative.
That's what I wanted a little more clarity on.
First of all, what is devout?
And then how can it be, I guess, used, but not productively?
(02:07):
Yeah.
So the translation that you brought up, mature, that's correct.
Now I don't like to use that word because so many people use it as like a pejorative
kind of thing a lot of times.
Well, you're so immature.
You know what I mean?
(02:27):
Yes.
That's not very mature.
And so I don't like to use that because people use it in that pejorative kind of a way.
So I prefer the term complete or a finished product for that reason.
But and you know, you understand being a teacher, how frustrating it is when a lot of times
(02:53):
you try and communicate clearly and people hear things.
You know what I mean?
Did I really say that?
And so I would say, you know, the super religious types.
And I always like to say we take those comments in their context because with the Sermon on
(03:14):
the Mount, the word that's repeated over and over again, blessed means happy.
So to me, what I'd like to frame the conversation around is religious people who at the end
of the day really aren't happy.
Okay.
(03:34):
You know, and these types of people tend to be really concerned about the rules and enforcing
the rules.
And then it seems like it's their job finding flaws in other people.
You know, and so in the Sermon on the Mount, one of the things Jesus talks about is taking
(03:58):
the plank out of your own eye before you take the speck out of other people's eye.
And you hear religious people say all the time, we're not supposed to judge.
That's not what the Sermon on the Mount teaches.
The Sermon on the Mount teaches, judge yourself first.
And then you can see clearly to judge correctly.
(04:19):
So Christians are commanded to judge and to be excellent at judging, but to judge correctly.
And so super religious types of people just make other people miserable because they're
always looking for the flaws in other people.
(04:41):
And they wind up calling things sin that the Bible does not really call sin, you know?
And I can tell you lots of stories.
I'll tell you one.
Okay.
I have a really good friend who's a pastor now in a Baptist church, but he grew up Wesleyan
(05:03):
holiness.
Now, do you know anything about these groups?
No.
Okay.
So you've got Pentecostal holiness, which is all the charismatic stuff.
And then you've got Wesleyan holiness.
So they're anti the gifts of the Holy Spirit types of thing, but they have the same rules.
(05:24):
So women can't cut their hair.
They have to wear long dresses and long sleeves.
The men have to wear sleeves below their elbows.
They've got all of these rules that are really at the end of the day kind of nonsense.
But it's this culture of just strict discipline.
(05:50):
And kids who grow up in that culture tend to grow up and really rebel hard because they've
lived their life under this oppressive system of rules that intuitively they know is nonsense.
And so they just blow off all religion and go hard in the world because they're frustrated.
(06:16):
They've been oppressed and they want to have a, they want to live a fun life, you know,
because life has been kind of miserable.
So one of the stories my friend tells is that his grandfather was a preacher and he goes
to one of these churches to be a guest speaker and he's got a pen in his shirt pocket and
(06:40):
the pen has a gold clasp on it.
And before he gets up to preach, the preacher that's invited him goes up to him and says,
brother, don't you think that pin in your pocket is kind of ostentatious?
You know, because it has a gold clasp.
(07:00):
It's just silly.
Now that's an extreme, but that principle plays out in more subtle ways.
A lot of times with people who are super religious, you know, and they're off, they're always
keeping everyone around them on guard from being criticized for something ridiculous.
(07:22):
Oh, you went and saw that movie.
Do you really think the Lord would approve of that?
You know what I mean?
Yes.
Back in the day, religious people would criticize others for playing cards, card games, not
poker, just playing with cards.
Just playing cards.
Yeah.
Well, those face cards have an image on them.
(07:45):
That's idolatry.
You know?
Yes.
It reminds me of the Pharisees.
Exactly.
And all their rules around not working on Sunday.
And it was just what, 300 and some rules about you couldn't spit or move if the dirt moved.
(08:08):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's the perfect example.
And so, you know, a lot of times people will say, I'm not religious, I'm spiritual.
Well, that's a nonsensical statement.
Yeah, I don't know what that means.
Right.
And you know, the book of James says, it refers to pure religion.
(08:31):
So everybody's religious.
But James says your religion needs to be pure.
It needs to be devoid of nonsensical things that the Lord really never intended for people's
lives or behavior that makes other people miserable.
(08:53):
You know, which is what the Pharisees function to do.
The Pharisees erected barriers, false barriers to people coming into a relationship with
God and they made other people's lives miserable.
You know, and that's not what God wants.
Right.
So.
So is part of that, like in the Pharisees, staying in control and as an authority?
(09:22):
I mean, did that keep others from becoming or being able to be a Pharisee?
I mean, not that you would aspire to that, but you know that they were considered the
religious leaders of the day.
They were.
Until Jesus came.
And when you look at that, we tend to look at it from the lens of our experience and
(09:43):
we think of them as just religious leaders.
And what we fail to realize is they weren't just religious leaders.
There was no division of church and state in the nation of Israel.
So they were also the political leaders.
They were the religious and political leaders.
And so you have to think of them protecting their power from that perspective as well.
(10:05):
And nobody wants to give up power.
Right.
And so it's both of those things mixed into one.
But I think also when it comes to relating to God, it's easy to slip into that mindset
of getting obsessed on rules and behaviors that we think are pleasing to God.
(10:37):
When at the end of the day, the Bible says God's intent is to bring us freedom from the
rules.
Think about this.
This triggers people a lot of times when I say it.
I had some Mennonites that I triggered when I said this.
(10:58):
There are two commandments in the Bible.
Right?
And then beyond that, there are only three rules.
This is from the Book of Acts, like 15, I believe.
Don't have sex with someone you're not married to.
(11:23):
Don't eat food sacrificed to idols.
And the other one has to do with idolatry.
And this is it.
I mean, think about that.
Now there's all kinds of principles.
So don't get drunk.
The Bible doesn't have any rules about drinking alcohol.
(11:44):
It just has rules against drunkenness.
Don't be a glutton.
These are principles.
Well, what does that mean?
What is a glutton?
And what is overeating?
If I eat one cupcake, am I sinning?
Versus two?
You know what I mean?
Right.
So the principles that we kind of think about at the end of the day, you know, guard your
(12:09):
health.
Don't be overly indulgent.
There's a lot of freedom in the Bible.
And so to me, like religious people need to be champions of freedom.
You know, in my household, I only have three rules for my kids.
One of them is kind of a joke.
(12:32):
So and I've told my kids this from the time they could understand the English language.
Rule number one, no hitting in the face or the genitals.
Now that rule wouldn't work for a lot of people's kids because they're overly aggressive and
probably need more boundaries than that.
But for my household, this rule works.
You know, rule number two, do what you're told when you're told.
(12:59):
Now that rule is enforced every time from the word go.
Okay.
So we don't have rules that we don't enforce.
This is one of the reasons I'm against rules because if you make a rule, you have to enforce
it.
That's true.
Yeah.
You know?
Yes.
So do what you're told when you're told.
And then rule number three, which is three rules in one, but that's just how I roll.
(13:23):
No lying, no stealing, no cheating.
Nice.
Yeah.
And that's it.
Other than that, you're free to do whatever you want to do.
And I'm not always looking over my kid's shoulder.
What are you looking at?
What are you doing?
You know what I mean?
Yes.
That's just oppressive and it doesn't work.
(13:46):
Now if you're like me, you might've been different, but you know, growing up, my parents, whatever
rules they had that I didn't agree with, I did what I wanted to do anyway.
I was just sneaky about it.
You know what I mean?
Yes.
So rules don't work.
You know what I mean?
(14:08):
And so as Christians, we need to understand there's tremendous freedom.
You know, this is one of the reasons why I, looking back, I really like the Methodist
Church.
Even when it was United Methodist, I can tolerate liberals because they understand a lot of the
(14:32):
things that we make such a big deal about really at the end of the day are not that
big of a deal.
And I really appreciate the freedom.
You know, the United Methodist mantra was open hearts, open doors, open minds.
And I find a nice comfortable home with that mantra.
(14:56):
And that's a good mantra.
Now they took it too far, you know, because at the end of the day, one of the rules of
the Bible is don't have sex with someone that you're not married to.
And marriage is clearly defined as being between one man and one woman in a lifelong monogamous
(15:18):
relationship.
It's always been the case.
Why all of a sudden, six years ago, you know what I mean?
Do we think we need to redefine what that means?
You know, so freedom is one of the clear priorities of God for his people.
(15:43):
And we need to learn to be reasonable about how we think about the expectations that we
place on others.
Now there might be things that are true for you that you need to be careful about.
For instance, if you're diabetic and you really need to be careful about how much sugar you
(16:07):
ingest.
Okay.
Right.
And then you see me eating a ding dong and you want to judge me for it?
You know?
Well, hey, that might be a problem for you, but it's not a problem for me.
I'm going to eat up and I might eat too.
And you know what?
That's okay for me.
Yeah.
And so same things with things like alcohol.
(16:30):
You know, there are lots of Christian groups that have these really strict judgmental attitudes
towards people who drink alcohol.
Well, listen, that might be a problem for you and I need to be sensitive about that,
but it's not a problem for me.
So and you know, you can go on down the line.
(16:51):
Right.
How that works.
So I guess thinking about devout then, I guess you could take anything to the extreme.
We've just given it a name, I guess, but you could take anything to the extreme.
(17:12):
But something that we as Christians then need to be conscious of is how we are perceiving
others and how they're perceiving us.
Because it is easy to something that I feel I need to do in my walk, projecting that onto
(17:37):
you or judging you around that when maybe that's not part of your calling.
Yeah.
Or part of what God's asking you to do.
Right.
Yeah.
And that goes so far down the line.
You know, as a pastor, I really want every person to come to church every Sunday.
(17:57):
And that's not reality.
You know, and the Bible talks about people who are weaker in their face.
And I shouldn't judge other people based upon the standards that I've personally received
(18:19):
in my calling and in my walk.
And as Christians, we need to be merciful to other people whose faith might not be as
strong.
And God gives people in the Book of Romans, it talks about God gives each person a measure
of faith.
Those measures aren't all the same.
And so we shouldn't judge people whose faith might not be as strong as ours.
(18:44):
And we should value every person's faith regardless of, you know, how strong or weak it might
be.
Faith is faith, and it's valuable and important regardless of what measure each person carries.
Now, we're all called to develop our face, you know, but some person is going to have
(19:08):
a greater measure, some person is going to have a lesser measure.
But we need to value and respect each person's faith regardless of what measure they've received,
you know.
Right.
And when I think about the Sermon on the Mount, that does give us some areas that we need
to focus on.
(19:30):
And so that'll be upcoming.
But going back to because I told you when I called you on the phone, you know, I worry
about this because sometimes you when you try to witness to someone, it is not well received.
Or you get a response you weren't expecting.
(19:55):
And I think, well, you know, what worked for one may not work for another.
I think you have to meet people where they are for sure and not project yourself onto
them.
So what would you say to Christians to be able to keep themselves in the right frame
(20:18):
of mind wherever they are, whoever they're with?
So girl, you are preaching to the choir when it comes to that topic, because I'm a pastor.
And so every time I meet new people, you know, and most pastors that I know are like this,
I try and avoid the topic like the plague.
(20:39):
So what do you do for a living?
I'm in public service, you know, because immediately when you drop that, you know, line, I'm a
pastor, it soils the relationship and you see this wall go up, you know, oh, well, I
(21:00):
go to church here, you know, and you know, they might have went there once in their life,
you know, but they're giving you the stiff arm to keep you from evangelizing them, you
know.
And so I try and avoid that topic.
I try and find things of common interest outside of like religion, because I actually am interested
(21:25):
in other things besides the Bible, believe it or not.
And so I would say now this is going to apply to friendships, to marriages, to parenting.
Okay.
When it talks, when the Bible talks about two commandments, love the Lord your God with
all your heart, mind and strength, love your neighbors yourself.
(21:49):
One of the things we need to keep in mind is I am going to make it my priority and taking
pleasure in this relationship in this person.
Okay.
And so this is one of the things that where religious people fail.
(22:10):
They're really concerned about correct behavior, correct understanding about the Bible, following
the rules, but before taking pleasure in their relationships with people.
Okay.
You know, and so when the Bible talks about being happy, being blessed, being happy, I
(22:32):
am a happy person.
I take pleasure in my relationship with God.
I love God, you know, and he loves me.
I start with that understanding and then I bring that to my relationships.
I recognize that you're created in the image of God and there are things within you that
God has cultivated that bring great joy to the world.
(22:56):
And that's what I'm going to dial in on, not your flaws, not your shortcomings.
I'm going to dial in on the things that make you beautiful and that bring gifts to the
world and to other people.
And that's what I'm going to highlight and emphasize, you know, and so for religious
people I would say that's where you really need to live your life.
(23:20):
Are you familiar with Dr. Phil?
On TV?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So he's a West Texas boy.
He brings some good country and Western wisdom to the world, you know, and so there's a
couple of things I like to talk about when it comes to Dr. Phil and his advice that he
brings for religious people.
(23:41):
A lot of times Methodists put the second commandment in first place and so what that tends to do
is it causes them to be more concerned about what other people think than what they should.
And so when they're criticizing their kids, their spouse, what they're really worried
about is what other people think at the end of the day.
(24:05):
And Dr. Phil gives some good advice about that.
He says, you know, you'll stop worrying about what other people think about you whenever
you realize how little they do.
I like that.
Now think about that.
That's true.
You know, so stop being so worried about your image, your reputation, you know, you know,
(24:29):
when you're a pastor, you can really become a captive to worrying about your reputation
because you live in a fishbowl.
And I'm blessed with having a dad who really could not care less what other people think.
And so I inherited that trait.
I really don't care what I mean.
(24:49):
That's not true.
I care what other people think, but I don't worry about what other people think.
Okay.
You know, yeah.
And that's why I'm free to say the things that I say in my sermons that I know are not
going to be received well a lot of times, but the other thing that Dr. Phil advises
people and this is a leadership principle, you really need to be careful about offering
(25:15):
up criticism to other people.
A good leader, whether your parent, a spouse, whatever, 90% of their words are going to
be positive and affirming.
And they're going to be careful that only 10% of their words are going to be corrective
(25:40):
and critical.
Okay.
Because if you get that mix out of balance, you're just going to push people away.
People aren't going to listen to you and they're not going to respect you.
Because if you don't know somebody loves you and values you, you are not going to respect
them.
You know?
Yes.
(26:00):
And so these are good words of advice when it comes to representing Jesus Christ in
our relationships.
And this is why the Bible, in the Sermon on the Mount, it says, blessed are those who
hunger and thirst for righteousness.
(26:22):
So we are absolutely to care about righteousness, both in ourselves, in ourselves first and
in other people second.
And then it also says blessed are the merciful.
So it's learning to keep those two things in balance, which is the trick.
(26:42):
And the Bible also says, mercy triumphs over judgment.
You know?
Yes.
And this is why I've really appreciated being a Methodist, even though it has been a home
for even progressive liberalism.
(27:04):
Classic liberalism is what the United States is founded upon.
It's the root word of liberty.
And so we should all embrace classic liberalism, but even though it's been tainted with progressive
woke nonsense, it's still a home where the priority is mercy.
(27:32):
You know?
Right.
And so that's a good thing.
And we all need to embrace that and practice that in our, you know, towards ourselves and
towards others.
At the same time, we don't forget blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness.
(27:52):
You know?
Yes.
Yeah.
And all that's coming ahead in the sermons to come, right?
It is.
And you know, we're going to cram a lot of information into a six week series and I'm
just laying the groundwork for maybe a couple of years down the line, you know, doing and
more extended.
But, you know, the Sermon on the Mount, you've got the Beatitudes.
(28:15):
These are the flowers that God wants growing in the garden of every person's heart.
And then he's going to warn about specific sins that God wants us to wage war against.
And then we're going to talk about the practices, the classic Christian practices by which we
(28:39):
fertilize the good things.
And then we like, I compare it to a lawn.
In a lawn, you know, you want to grow grass, say Bermuda.
And so you fertilize the Bermuda, but you've got this stuff called Weed and Feed.
And that also contains things that kill the bad things.
(29:01):
And so the Christian practices, they fertilize the good things and they kill the bad things.
And the more densely that Bermuda grows, the more, you know, weeds can't grow because they
don't find space to have life, you know?
And so really the Sermon on the Mount is those three things.
(29:22):
These are the fruit or the flowers that God wants growing in the garden of our heart.
The weeds that grow in every person's heart.
Now my heart might grow one weed better than yours does, but these weeds grow in every
person's heart.
You need to wage war against these things.
And then the practices that will help us grow the good things and kill the bad things.
(29:46):
And you know, here's the thing.
Weeds grow very easily, don't they?
They do.
You don't have to work at growing weeds, you know?
And this is how the Christian life is.
If we're going to grow the good things, it will only happen if we do it on purpose.
If we're intentional about it.
And the weeds are going to grow all by themselves.
(30:09):
So.
I like that.
So I think in summary, something that I can take away from this is loving God first.
And if I don't have the love of God in my heart, then I need to be careful what I'm
saying to someone else anyway.
(30:31):
Right on.
But the second one is loving that other person as myself.
So whatever I'm saying to them, would I want to hear that being said to me?
And is it based under the mercy and love of Christ?
(30:53):
And that there's a lot to unpack in that statement.
If you don't love yourself well, you're not going to be able to love other people well.
You know?
And so we need to learn to receive the mercy and the grace that God offers in Jesus Christ.
You know?
(31:13):
Amen.
And if we're not capable of doing that, we're going to be miserable.
And we're going to make other people miserable.
You know?
Yes.
And what was the other thing you said?
Remind me what you said.
Is what I'm saying to someone else what I would want to be hearing?
That's it.
So you know, a lot of times people who like to think of themselves as tough people, well,
(31:41):
I just tell it like it is.
Okay.
Well, that's not godly.
You know, we don't need to think about speaking things that are truthful first.
We need to think about speaking things that are helpful first.
Something might be true, but it's not helpful.
(32:02):
And a lot of times people speak things that are true that at the end of the day are hurtful
and they really don't help anyone.
And so whenever we place the priority on mercy, that will help us to be more disciplined and
have perspective to speak words that are helpful and build other people up and don't tear them
(32:24):
down.
Yes.
I like that.
Yeah.
The word humble comes to mind.
Absolutely.
Well, good.
Well, I appreciate you going into that.
I think we talked about a lot today and I look forward to the upcoming sermons too as
(32:45):
we go through there.
I did see the chosen and one of theirs was him preparing, Jesus preparing for his speech
and the work he put into that.
And I know that's part of the sermons.
Yeah.
(33:06):
But it was, it's really, it does bring it a different level of understanding even though
you know there's artistic creativity involved, but it sure does, I don't know, make it heartwarming
(33:27):
to see and to think about.
You know, I'm all about that.
Tell the story, tell it with creativity and imagination, you know?
And so this is a little bit off topic, but we talked about it a little bit, how the Pharisees
weren't just religious leaders, they were political leaders.
There was no separation of church and state.
So when you think about the sermon on the Mount, Jesus refers to it as the gospel of
(33:52):
the kingdom.
And it says he's going from town to town throughout Galilee preaching this message.
And so you can't just think of it as Jesus the evangelist.
You can also think of it as like a political campaign tour.
Okay.
So the gospel of the kingdom is Jesus political platform by which he's going to rule the nations.
(34:21):
And that should be very encouraging.
Yeah, you know, so Jesus is doing both of these things in one and he's going around.
And the reason that Christianity and Jesus are so controversial is because his political
platform is opposed to both the Pharisees and the Sadducees who were the conservatives
(34:45):
and the liberals of his day.
And he's calling them both out and demonstrating how his political platform is superior to
both of theirs and establishing that he is the chosen one who has the right to assume
(35:06):
leadership not only of the nation of Israel, but all the nations.
Wow.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's good.
Yeah.
Puts a whole different level on it, doesn't it?
It does and it helps, but it helps people to understand why Jesus was such a controversial
person.
Why the disciples at the end of the day, every one of them were killed.
(35:31):
Yes.
And the apostle John was not killed, but he probably wishes he would have been killed
based upon the suffering that he was subjected to because of the controversy around the message
of Jesus Christ.
Wow.
Yeah.
Good to remember, right?
Yep.
(35:51):
And it's really good to take ownership of because that's coming for all of us.
This is one of the things the book of Revelation is warning us about and fortifying us against
is the fact that the message of Jesus Christ once again is going to become the great controversy
(36:12):
of the nations.
And we're going to have to make a decision about whether or not we're willing to pay
the price for taking ownership of the message in spite of the controversy.
Wow.
Well, we have to prepare for that, don't we?
(36:36):
Yes, ma'am.
Yeah.
Yes.
So the more we practice now, the more we do what we believe God is calling us to now,
the better prepared we'll be when persecution increases.
No doubt about it.
No doubt about it.
Good.
So, yeah.
(36:56):
Well, thanks for coming in today and bringing your thoughts about the message to everyone
who watches.
And I love these conversations.
I'd do them even if nobody watched them.
Okay.
Sounds good to me.
All right.
Well, thank you.
(37:16):
And I look forward to this series.
Good.
Amen.
That's good to hear.
Because it's tough, tough content.
Yeah.
All right.
Thank you.
Thank you.
ghan.cz
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