August 7, 2024 • 32 mins
Debbie Cooper asks Kendall questions from his sermon on 8-4-2024
How Do We Interpret the Book of Revelation?
https://kendallmeek.substack.com/p/how-do-we-interpret-the-book-of-revelation
Sermon from 8-4: The Judgment Seat of Christ
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
All right.
(00:14):
Good morning, Debbie.
Good morning.
How are you?
Here we go again.
See, I feel like we're cheating this week because you texted me and gave me a heads
up about what you're going to ask me about.
So that's like getting the answers before the test.
I feel like that's so well, this was a big one.
So I felt like you might need a heads up.
(00:35):
I probably did appreciate that.
I've got material here.
So yeah, I've got, you know, I'm teaching Revelation on Wednesday night.
And so I just wrote an article yesterday morning detailing a lot of the things that we talked
about in one of the podcasts.
Like how do I know this is right?
(00:56):
Remember that question?
And so I've published all of that in a, I had it scattered around in different articles,
but now I've got it in one central spot.
Oh, great.
And you just posted that yesterday?
Yesterday morning.
Okay.
All right.
Well, good.
Well, Sunday, you talked about judgment and two in particular, the judgment seat.
(01:23):
And, or the, and, or I guess I should say, I don't know which is the right word, great
white throne.
So I did go back and read your sermon.
I was sitting at the back and I can't hear very well from back there.
So I probably missed some things, but I thought, well, just for maybe my own clarification
(01:44):
and maybe someone else's talking about the difference between the two.
Because you said you want to be at one, you don't want to be at the other.
And maybe understanding that a little bit clearer.
Okay.
Yeah.
This is again, not widely talked about.
(02:05):
A lot of people shy away from it because they're not sure if they understand it correctly.
And so that's what the article is about.
Because remember I told you the, with the perspective that we're interpreting the text
from, it's found broadly in the old Testament.
Several verses are cited in this article.
(02:26):
It's talked about in the second temple, Deutero canonical books, which are canonized in the
Roman Catholic and the various branches of orthodoxy.
They're a part of their canon.
Those books were canonized in the third century, fourth century.
(02:50):
Various church councils.
There's like four different church councils that are firm, their canonicity Protestant
churches rejected them because they probably felt uncomfortable with some of the content
in there.
But they're cited extensively by the early church fathers.
And so they're important books is long story short.
(03:11):
Now I'm going to read through revelation 20.
And so a lot of this documentation is just to show that we're just taking the text to
mean what it says and says what it means.
It's the plain meaning of the text.
I've also cited how John Wesley, what he said specifically about the interpretive grid that
(03:33):
we're going to be using the early church fathers.
I'll read a little bit from that once we read through revelation chapter 20.
So let's turn there.
So revelation 19 describes the return of Jesus Christ.
And so this is the next train of thought in John's book.
(03:56):
So after the return of Jesus Christ, here's what John describes in revelation 20 verse
one.
That's with the word then that tells you it's connected with revelation 19.
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless
(04:17):
pit and a great chain.
Now that's distinct from the lake of fire.
Okay.
Verse two.
And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan and bound him for
a thousand years.
Now you're going to notice here that word thousand years is going to be repeated like
(04:42):
six times in this chapter.
It's not just an offhanded comment.
Okay.
Verse three.
And threw him into the pit and shut it and sealed it over him so that he might not deceive
the nations any longer until the thousand years were ended.
(05:04):
After that he must be released for a little while.
Now I'll briefly tell you how one of the predominant views of how to interpret revelation that's
different from the one that I ascribe to, I incorporate it.
It's just not my overarching guiding principle.
They would argue that the binding of Satan is just from him deceiving people from believing
(05:32):
the gospel and entering the spiritual kingdom of heaven.
Okay.
Okay.
Now I think that's silly.
If you just let the text speak for itself, it says, it doesn't say he's bound from blinding
believers from receiving the gospel.
It doesn't say that.
What it says is that he might not deceive the nations any longer.
(05:59):
So and that's a reference to the various governments that govern the planet that are under his
control.
We've discussed how the Bible describes Satan as being the god of this world.
He offers Jesus the kingdoms of this world because they're under his control.
And so it's a twisting of the text.
(06:19):
We call this iso Jesus.
Okay.
What we shoot for is exegesis, letting the text speak for itself to interpret the meaning.
I said Jesus is reading your own theological presuppositions into the text to make it fit
what you want it to say.
You see what I'm saying?
(06:39):
And so very clearly, Satan is still very active in the nations of the earth.
And if you can't see that, then you're blind as a bat.
And the text doesn't say it's well, it's just keeping him from blinding people from receiving
the gospel.
That's that's reading your theology into the text.
(07:00):
Okay, verse four.
Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed.
Okay, so there's not just one throne, the throne of Jesus, there are many thrones.
One of the questions I ask is, is Jesus going to personally judge every single person?
(07:22):
You know, or does is it is the throne of the beam of seed of Jesus Christ, the judgment
of Christ, simply reference to his administrative oversight of the judgment process?
Because clearly, there's going to be many people involved in judging.
And doesn't he say something to the disciples about that?
(07:45):
You will sit on 12 thrones with me judging the 12 tribes of Israel.
Yeah, that's right.
Also, I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for
the word of God and those who had not worshiped the beast or its imaged, those who had not
fallen into the trap of the massive political and economic deception that is going to be
(08:11):
unleashed, which is described throughout the book of Revelation.
That's what it's talking about is political and economic deception.
And had not received its mark on their foreheads or on their hands.
We say that because you have to receive that mark to participate in the economy of the
Antichrist system.
OK, they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
(08:34):
There's that phrase again.
Verse five, the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.
This is the first resurrection.
OK, now we'll pause right there.
(08:55):
So Revelation 19 describes the return of Jesus Christ.
There are several signs that the Bible consistently describes that accompany that, like the voice
of an archangel, a loud trumpet.
The sun will be darkened, the moon will turn to blood, these types of things.
And the Son of Man will appear in the sky.
The dead will be raised first.
(09:16):
Now that's the righteous dead, those who belong to Christ will be raised to life.
Believers will be translated in a moment in a twinkling of an eye.
We will meet him in the air.
Ross and I discussed this in our podcast, The Rapture of the Church, coincides the return
of Jesus Christ and we escort him as he's returning to the earth.
(09:38):
So it's just like the triumphal entry.
This is like a dress rehearsal for the second coming of Jesus, where he's entering Jerusalem.
He's met by a crowd that are praising and celebrating him and they accompany him back
into the city.
This is what the Rapture of the Church is like.
And so this is the first resurrection.
And the judgment seat of Christ is about determining the place that believers will hold in the inauguration
(10:05):
of this earthly kingdom that's going to be set up at the return of Jesus Christ.
And so we'll keep reading.
Verse six, blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection.
So that's why I said you want to be a part of the first resurrection, not the second.
Over such, the second death has no power.
(10:26):
There won't be any more death.
But they will be priests of God and of Christ and they will reign with him for a thousand
years.
And so it's almost like the Bible, the Holy Spirit is instructing John.
Say this a lot of times so that people will realize I really mean that.
(10:47):
You know?
Okay, verse seven.
And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will
come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog,
to gather them for battle.
Their number is like the sand of the sea.
And they marched over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints
(11:09):
in the beloved city, that's Jerusalem, that's where the capital city of the millennial kingdom
and the eternal kingdom for that matter is forever going to be.
But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.
I love that.
It's so like anticlimactic.
There's this huge buildup of this army and I was like, boop, you know, you're dead.
(11:31):
Verse 10, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire.
Now that's different from the bottomless pit, right?
This is eternal damnation.
And so the bottomless pit is like a prison where Satan is chained for a thousand years.
After that, he's killed and judged.
And this is where he's going to meet his eternal place of torment.
(11:56):
And sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day
and night forever and ever.
Then verse 11, then I saw a great white throne.
Again there's that word then tells you, tells you this is in sequence to the previous events.
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it from his presence, earth
(12:20):
and sky fled away and no place was found for them.
And I saw the dead, great and small standing before the throne and books were opened.
Then another book was opened, which is the book of life.
These are interesting details.
Okay, let's finish out this chapter.
(12:42):
And the dead were judged by what was written in the books according to what they had done.
And the sea gave up the dead who were in it.
Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them.
And they were judged each one of them according to what they had done.
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.
This is the second death, the lake of fire.
(13:04):
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the
lake of fire.
So there's the second judgment seat distinct from the first because this includes everyone
is going to be raised from the dead who wasn't a part of the first resurrection.
And apparently there are going to be some people who meet a terrible fate.
(13:28):
And some people who meet a favorable fate.
There is a book of life.
And it says if anyone's name was not found in the book of life, they were thrown into
the lake of fire.
So apparently there will be some who are.
Right?
That's what it sounds like.
And then each one is going to be judged according to what they have done.
(13:51):
It's clear from the Bible, their teachings that hell is going to be bad for everyone.
But it's going to be worse for some than others.
And then it's true for heaven as well.
Or the next stage.
The next stage is going to be good for everyone.
But it's going to be better for some than for others.
(14:13):
So that's what the judgment seats of Christ are about.
Are determining where you're going to fit into the scheme of things.
So I always thought the book of life, your name was written in the book of life.
If you had accepted Jesus Christ as your savior.
So if they're opening up the book of life, then that's a little confusing there.
(14:37):
So what?
Once again, you have asked the exact right question.
And you're forcing me to get into some.
This is going to sound weird.
Okay.
However, this is a well-documented pattern of thought that goes back to the Old Testament.
(15:11):
Second Temple literature, the early church fathers.
So just because you haven't heard this discussed in the modern church, where it's all about
me and my needs and my life and my family and sermons to cater to that, doesn't mean
this is a new concept.
This is not a new concept.
I did not come up with this.
This isn't Kendall's theology.
(15:34):
So in the time of tribulation, the Bible says Satan is going to be given a long leash to
exercise great power over the nations of the earth.
It says that he will gain the upper hand over the Jewish people and the believers of Jesus
Christ.
(15:55):
We will be heavily persecuted.
It says that he will gain control of the nations.
And so everyone who succumbs to his demands of worship by taking some mark of loyalty,
whatever that is, is going to forfeit the privilege of being saved and will be eternally
(16:22):
damned.
Now, do you honestly think that some unreached tribe in Papua New Guinea who doesn't have
cell phone service or the internet is going to be even aware that any of this is going
on?
No.
No.
No.
And so we could and so we could I could parse the verses.
(16:46):
I can't actually some of them I can.
Zechariah 14, Isaiah 63.
No, no.
Yeah, I think that's right.
Last few chapters of Isaiah, it describes what looks like.
And we even see this in Revelation 20.
Some of the things you might not have picked up.
(17:07):
Well, Satan is bound for a thousand years.
And at the end, he leads a rebellion.
Well, who's rebelling with him?
It's not resurrected believers, is it?
So who are these people?
So at the return of Jesus Christ, not everyone on the earth is going to be a believer.
Born again believer.
(17:28):
Not everyone on the earth is going to receive the mark of the beast, whatever that is, there
will be a population of people who do not fit either of those categories and get to
continue to live during the millennial reign of Jesus Christ.
They will repopulate the earth.
They will be discipled and many of those will be led in a rebellion at the end of the millennium.
(17:58):
Now this actually makes sense.
OK, why would Jesus do that?
That would be probably the next question that you ask.
Yes.
Right?
Yes.
So whenever people stand before the judgment seat of Christ, especially as they're trained
in our culture, everybody has some excuse for why they're not the biggest, the best
(18:18):
and the brightest.
It's because they didn't have the same privileges.
They didn't have the same opportunities.
They didn't have a good mom and dad.
They didn't grow up in church.
There's all these excuses that people are going to present.
Well during the millennial reign of Jesus Christ, the nations of the earth will have
(18:41):
perfect leadership.
Everyone will have the opportunities that match their skills.
And at the end of the day, there's still going to be those who rebel, which just functions
to illustrate Jesus Christ is right and good and righteous at condemning people to eternal
(19:04):
damnation because even with the perfect leadership, the best information, the proper opportunities,
they still refuse to obey.
So if I can kind of sum up, you tell me if I'm off.
It's once again, the God providing another chance to choose.
(19:32):
We always get to choose to serve him.
And I think of that as being the graciousness of God to make sure there are, you didn't
get missed.
You didn't not hear.
You didn't everyone that will all been covered when Jesus reigns during that time.
(20:00):
We should never underestimate the goodness and the mercy of God.
And God doesn't want anyone to be condemned to hell.
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believe it
that name should not perish, have everlasting life for God did not send his son to condemn
(20:23):
the world, but to save the world.
And so Jesus is going to go to any and every link to make sure that people have the opportunity
to repent, to acknowledge him for who he is and to make the choice to bow their knee in
loyalty to his sovereign governance.
(20:46):
Yeah.
Amen.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
We're thankful for all of that.
So you, as I follow, I have the NIV Bible.
What do you use?
It's a little different, not a lot different, but a little different.
(21:07):
I do use the NIV.
So that's like the original Bible that I started reading.
I've still got my first Bible that my mom bought me when I was baptized in 1987.
But I day in and day out, I use the ESV, the English standard version.
It leans towards a literal interpretation of the text.
(21:28):
So the NIV is what's called a dynamic equivalence.
It tries to make the original Greek and Hebrew more readable.
And the ESV leans more literal.
Now you've got other translations that are literal, like the old American standard version,
the old American standard version, very literal, but it's kind of hard to read because it's
(21:51):
old.
So this is kind of an updated, more readable literal translation of the text.
Okay.
Sorry, I kind of beard off a minute.
That's okay.
That's a good question.
As I was following, I knew it was a little bit different.
And by the way, the ESV study Bible is a very good study Bible.
Okay.
It's got good, useful notes in it.
(22:12):
Some of those study Bibles have, when you read this first, how does it make you feel
to know that, I'm not interested in my feelings right now.
I want to know what this means.
You want to seek for understanding.
So I guess the follow up of that is as a believer, you know, always the question I think we ask
(22:39):
when we get to revelations is, have I done everything I needed to do?
Am I ready to meet Jesus when he returns?
And so what would you say about that?
(23:00):
It's kind of like beating a dead horse.
But I mean, I'll probably repeating this until I die.
You know, there are three primary means of grace that we inherit from our Wesleyan tradition.
And John Wesley probably got it from the early church fathers.
(23:23):
We need to make it our priority to spend our best time, energy and effort growing in our
understanding of scripture.
Number one, there aren't that many people who are doing that.
Even who are professional pastors.
Okay.
Okay.
A lot of them spend most of their best time and energy trying to be popular when it when
(23:46):
popularity contests and market their church and network and things like that, which is
not a bad thing to do.
But these are primary.
We need to work at growing in our understanding of scripture.
Now, listen, thinking is hard work.
That's why most people don't do it.
(24:07):
You know, people don't think unless I'm out there sweating and doing something practical,
you know, I'm not working.
No, thinking is very difficult work.
And so that's why most people don't do it.
So in our understanding of scripture, spend time in prayer and by prayer, we don't just
mean talking to God about our problems.
We mean spending focused time listening to what the Holy Spirit is saying to us.
(24:34):
Okay.
The more we understand scripture, the better we can hear the Holy Spirit.
And then point number three, gathering with other believers for worship.
We need to be dedicating our lives to these things.
Now as we do these things, we will see clearly to what God wants, wants us to do in the world,
(24:59):
where our place is in the world so that we can produce fruit for him.
You know, but if you do those three things, you're going to beat 90 making this number
up obviously, 97% of the body of Christ.
So and you know, we have all of the tools in the world at our fingertips to be able
(25:24):
to grow in our understanding of these things.
So and tools meaning well with, you know, with, you know, with a sub stack, I'm able
to publish my sermons so that if you've got questions about anything, I try and cite and
document things so you can follow the train of thought and see for yourself.
(25:48):
We've got YouTube, some of the best teachers in the world that are on YouTube.
You know, and so you know, libraries are becoming a thing of the past because you can find pretty
much anything you want online at the click of a button.
Right.
Yeah.
Yes.
You know, yeah, limitless resources.
And Debbie, the book of Daniel talks about this.
(26:10):
Okay.
Money shall go to and fro and knowledge shall increase.
And so we are see, we are living through the fulfillment of that prophecy with travel being
as easy as it is and with access to knowledge being unprecedented.
(26:31):
Remember back in the day when you used to have to go to the library and go to the Dewey
decimal system and look at those cards and it takes you two hours to find one citation.
Right.
You know, so as a believer, how do I know I'm listening or reading the right information?
(26:53):
I mean, I know from the Bible, but let's say I'm looking at something on YouTube or something
that's been posted.
How do I know I've landed on truth and not someone's, as you stated earlier, personal
belief system?
(27:14):
Have you ever heard how blind people can tell the difference between real currency and counterfeit
currency?
Have you ever heard this analogy?
No.
The key is you become so familiar with the authentic that you can spot a fake from a
mile away.
And so again, going back to the means of grace, those three things, you become so familiar
(27:40):
with the authentic, you can smell something funny when you see it.
You know, uh, beyond that, it's very difficult because I found some really good information
from some kind of fringe sources, you know, uh, now when I say fringe, they're willing
(28:02):
to delve into topics that are controversial and sensational, but I found one of my most
important mentors through some of these people and, and he's a very high quality, legitimate
scholar.
So Dr. Michael Heiser, he's got a PhD from the university of Madison, Wisconsin, which
(28:25):
is a academic seminary.
And then he was the scholar in residence at Logos Bible software and his work is amazing.
So and I found out about him through some kind of weird people, you know, so it's, it's
kind of difficult to say how I, the best advice I can give is become so familiar with the
(28:47):
authentic what's in, what's in here, the contents of this book, uh, that you'll know if something
doesn't smell right.
Okay.
You know, okay.
And I remember even being a teenager and knowing that, you know, having like real institutional
credible people tell me things like, well, the gifts of the Holy spirit were ended once
(29:10):
the Bible was formed.
And I'm like, I've read that new Testament, it doesn't say anything like that in there.
Well, yeah, it says that, you know, blah, blah, blah.
It's like, that's not what that says, you know?
And so I was never bullied by these people, you know, uh, which is what a lot of this
is is bullying, you know, that's not what that means.
(29:33):
Well, I know that's what you think that says, but that's not what that means.
Okay.
You know, so whatever.
So this is our reference.
This is our source.
Yep.
Everything should align with what we read on these pages.
And I would also say in the spirit of John Wesley, John Wesley is a very good litmus
(29:57):
test for what is reliable thinking about the Bible.
And John Wesley and the early Methodists would point us back to the early church fathers.
Okay.
And one of them I've cited in here within the first 300 years of the church before the
church began becoming corrupted with political power and status and things like that.
(30:21):
That is a very reliable testimony of how to think properly about scripture.
So if you can't find it in the tradition of the church, you're off base.
That's why a lot of theology that was created in the Protestant Reformation, for instance,
the Calvinism, if it's a theology that's invented 1500 years after the fact, it's probably off
(30:46):
balance.
Okay.
Okay.
So we point to the traditions of the church, especially those rooted in the first 300 years
of the early church fathers.
It's going to be a pretty reliable litmus test for what is clear thinking.
Okay.
And in here I cite two men who were discipled by the apostle John himself.
(31:10):
And then they have another disciple, Irenaeus.
I spoke a little bit about this in one of our podcasts, but and they are articulating
the eschatological platform that I've spoken from in this podcast.
And are they the ones who wrote the books that you referenced that aren't in here?
No.
(31:31):
No.
They were written in the writings, but those were written before the time of Jesus.
They were written in the, there's that, they call them the silent years between the last
book of the Bible, Old Testament Malachi and the coming of Jesus.
They call those the silent years, but really they weren't so silent because there are several
books that were written during that timeframe that are included in what most people know
(31:54):
is the Apocrypha.
So.
Okay.
All right.
Well, I think, I think we can end on study your scripture.
You need to know that.
Always.
You need to know the truth.
Always.
Pray all the time and gather with other believers to worship.
(32:16):
Be consistent.
Amen.
Okay.
All right.
Thank you, Ms. Debbie.
Great questions as always.
Okay.
Thank you.
All right.
(00:14):
Good morning, Debbie.
Good morning.
How are you?
Here we go again.
See, I feel like we're cheating this week because you texted me and gave me a heads
up about what you're going to ask me about.
So that's like getting the answers before the test.
I feel like that's so well, this was a big one.
So I felt like you might need a heads up.
(00:35):
I probably did appreciate that.
I've got material here.
So yeah, I've got, you know, I'm teaching Revelation on Wednesday night.
And so I just wrote an article yesterday morning detailing a lot of the things that we talked
about in one of the podcasts.
Like how do I know this is right?
(00:56):
Remember that question?
And so I've published all of that in a, I had it scattered around in different articles,
but now I've got it in one central spot.
Oh, great.
And you just posted that yesterday?
Yesterday morning.
Okay.
All right.
Well, good.
Well, Sunday, you talked about judgment and two in particular, the judgment seat.
(01:23):
And, or the, and, or I guess I should say, I don't know which is the right word, great
white throne.
So I did go back and read your sermon.
I was sitting at the back and I can't hear very well from back there.
So I probably missed some things, but I thought, well, just for maybe my own clarification
(01:44):
and maybe someone else's talking about the difference between the two.
Because you said you want to be at one, you don't want to be at the other.
And maybe understanding that a little bit clearer.
Okay.
Yeah.
This is again, not widely talked about.
(02:05):
A lot of people shy away from it because they're not sure if they understand it correctly.
And so that's what the article is about.
Because remember I told you the, with the perspective that we're interpreting the text
from, it's found broadly in the old Testament.
Several verses are cited in this article.
(02:26):
It's talked about in the second temple, Deutero canonical books, which are canonized in the
Roman Catholic and the various branches of orthodoxy.
They're a part of their canon.
Those books were canonized in the third century, fourth century.
(02:50):
Various church councils.
There's like four different church councils that are firm, their canonicity Protestant
churches rejected them because they probably felt uncomfortable with some of the content
in there.
But they're cited extensively by the early church fathers.
And so they're important books is long story short.
(03:11):
Now I'm going to read through revelation 20.
And so a lot of this documentation is just to show that we're just taking the text to
mean what it says and says what it means.
It's the plain meaning of the text.
I've also cited how John Wesley, what he said specifically about the interpretive grid that
(03:33):
we're going to be using the early church fathers.
I'll read a little bit from that once we read through revelation chapter 20.
So let's turn there.
So revelation 19 describes the return of Jesus Christ.
And so this is the next train of thought in John's book.
(03:56):
So after the return of Jesus Christ, here's what John describes in revelation 20 verse
one.
That's with the word then that tells you it's connected with revelation 19.
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless
(04:17):
pit and a great chain.
Now that's distinct from the lake of fire.
Okay.
Verse two.
And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan and bound him for
a thousand years.
Now you're going to notice here that word thousand years is going to be repeated like
(04:42):
six times in this chapter.
It's not just an offhanded comment.
Okay.
Verse three.
And threw him into the pit and shut it and sealed it over him so that he might not deceive
the nations any longer until the thousand years were ended.
(05:04):
After that he must be released for a little while.
Now I'll briefly tell you how one of the predominant views of how to interpret revelation that's
different from the one that I ascribe to, I incorporate it.
It's just not my overarching guiding principle.
They would argue that the binding of Satan is just from him deceiving people from believing
(05:32):
the gospel and entering the spiritual kingdom of heaven.
Okay.
Okay.
Now I think that's silly.
If you just let the text speak for itself, it says, it doesn't say he's bound from blinding
believers from receiving the gospel.
It doesn't say that.
What it says is that he might not deceive the nations any longer.
(05:59):
So and that's a reference to the various governments that govern the planet that are under his
control.
We've discussed how the Bible describes Satan as being the god of this world.
He offers Jesus the kingdoms of this world because they're under his control.
And so it's a twisting of the text.
(06:19):
We call this iso Jesus.
Okay.
What we shoot for is exegesis, letting the text speak for itself to interpret the meaning.
I said Jesus is reading your own theological presuppositions into the text to make it fit
what you want it to say.
You see what I'm saying?
(06:39):
And so very clearly, Satan is still very active in the nations of the earth.
And if you can't see that, then you're blind as a bat.
And the text doesn't say it's well, it's just keeping him from blinding people from receiving
the gospel.
That's that's reading your theology into the text.
(07:00):
Okay, verse four.
Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed.
Okay, so there's not just one throne, the throne of Jesus, there are many thrones.
One of the questions I ask is, is Jesus going to personally judge every single person?
(07:22):
You know, or does is it is the throne of the beam of seed of Jesus Christ, the judgment
of Christ, simply reference to his administrative oversight of the judgment process?
Because clearly, there's going to be many people involved in judging.
And doesn't he say something to the disciples about that?
(07:45):
You will sit on 12 thrones with me judging the 12 tribes of Israel.
Yeah, that's right.
Also, I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for
the word of God and those who had not worshiped the beast or its imaged, those who had not
fallen into the trap of the massive political and economic deception that is going to be
(08:11):
unleashed, which is described throughout the book of Revelation.
That's what it's talking about is political and economic deception.
And had not received its mark on their foreheads or on their hands.
We say that because you have to receive that mark to participate in the economy of the
Antichrist system.
OK, they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
(08:34):
There's that phrase again.
Verse five, the rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.
This is the first resurrection.
OK, now we'll pause right there.
(08:55):
So Revelation 19 describes the return of Jesus Christ.
There are several signs that the Bible consistently describes that accompany that, like the voice
of an archangel, a loud trumpet.
The sun will be darkened, the moon will turn to blood, these types of things.
And the Son of Man will appear in the sky.
The dead will be raised first.
(09:16):
Now that's the righteous dead, those who belong to Christ will be raised to life.
Believers will be translated in a moment in a twinkling of an eye.
We will meet him in the air.
Ross and I discussed this in our podcast, The Rapture of the Church, coincides the return
of Jesus Christ and we escort him as he's returning to the earth.
(09:38):
So it's just like the triumphal entry.
This is like a dress rehearsal for the second coming of Jesus, where he's entering Jerusalem.
He's met by a crowd that are praising and celebrating him and they accompany him back
into the city.
This is what the Rapture of the Church is like.
And so this is the first resurrection.
And the judgment seat of Christ is about determining the place that believers will hold in the inauguration
(10:05):
of this earthly kingdom that's going to be set up at the return of Jesus Christ.
And so we'll keep reading.
Verse six, blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection.
So that's why I said you want to be a part of the first resurrection, not the second.
Over such, the second death has no power.
(10:26):
There won't be any more death.
But they will be priests of God and of Christ and they will reign with him for a thousand
years.
And so it's almost like the Bible, the Holy Spirit is instructing John.
Say this a lot of times so that people will realize I really mean that.
(10:47):
You know?
Okay, verse seven.
And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison and will
come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog,
to gather them for battle.
Their number is like the sand of the sea.
And they marched over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints
(11:09):
in the beloved city, that's Jerusalem, that's where the capital city of the millennial kingdom
and the eternal kingdom for that matter is forever going to be.
But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.
I love that.
It's so like anticlimactic.
There's this huge buildup of this army and I was like, boop, you know, you're dead.
(11:31):
Verse 10, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire.
Now that's different from the bottomless pit, right?
This is eternal damnation.
And so the bottomless pit is like a prison where Satan is chained for a thousand years.
After that, he's killed and judged.
And this is where he's going to meet his eternal place of torment.
(11:56):
And sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day
and night forever and ever.
Then verse 11, then I saw a great white throne.
Again there's that word then tells you, tells you this is in sequence to the previous events.
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it from his presence, earth
(12:20):
and sky fled away and no place was found for them.
And I saw the dead, great and small standing before the throne and books were opened.
Then another book was opened, which is the book of life.
These are interesting details.
Okay, let's finish out this chapter.
(12:42):
And the dead were judged by what was written in the books according to what they had done.
And the sea gave up the dead who were in it.
Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them.
And they were judged each one of them according to what they had done.
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.
This is the second death, the lake of fire.
(13:04):
And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the
lake of fire.
So there's the second judgment seat distinct from the first because this includes everyone
is going to be raised from the dead who wasn't a part of the first resurrection.
And apparently there are going to be some people who meet a terrible fate.
(13:28):
And some people who meet a favorable fate.
There is a book of life.
And it says if anyone's name was not found in the book of life, they were thrown into
the lake of fire.
So apparently there will be some who are.
Right?
That's what it sounds like.
And then each one is going to be judged according to what they have done.
(13:51):
It's clear from the Bible, their teachings that hell is going to be bad for everyone.
But it's going to be worse for some than others.
And then it's true for heaven as well.
Or the next stage.
The next stage is going to be good for everyone.
But it's going to be better for some than for others.
(14:13):
So that's what the judgment seats of Christ are about.
Are determining where you're going to fit into the scheme of things.
So I always thought the book of life, your name was written in the book of life.
If you had accepted Jesus Christ as your savior.
So if they're opening up the book of life, then that's a little confusing there.
(14:37):
So what?
Once again, you have asked the exact right question.
And you're forcing me to get into some.
This is going to sound weird.
Okay.
However, this is a well-documented pattern of thought that goes back to the Old Testament.
(15:11):
Second Temple literature, the early church fathers.
So just because you haven't heard this discussed in the modern church, where it's all about
me and my needs and my life and my family and sermons to cater to that, doesn't mean
this is a new concept.
This is not a new concept.
I did not come up with this.
This isn't Kendall's theology.
(15:34):
So in the time of tribulation, the Bible says Satan is going to be given a long leash to
exercise great power over the nations of the earth.
It says that he will gain the upper hand over the Jewish people and the believers of Jesus
Christ.
(15:55):
We will be heavily persecuted.
It says that he will gain control of the nations.
And so everyone who succumbs to his demands of worship by taking some mark of loyalty,
whatever that is, is going to forfeit the privilege of being saved and will be eternally
(16:22):
damned.
Now, do you honestly think that some unreached tribe in Papua New Guinea who doesn't have
cell phone service or the internet is going to be even aware that any of this is going
on?
No.
No.
No.
And so we could and so we could I could parse the verses.
(16:46):
I can't actually some of them I can.
Zechariah 14, Isaiah 63.
No, no.
Yeah, I think that's right.
Last few chapters of Isaiah, it describes what looks like.
And we even see this in Revelation 20.
Some of the things you might not have picked up.
(17:07):
Well, Satan is bound for a thousand years.
And at the end, he leads a rebellion.
Well, who's rebelling with him?
It's not resurrected believers, is it?
So who are these people?
So at the return of Jesus Christ, not everyone on the earth is going to be a believer.
Born again believer.
(17:28):
Not everyone on the earth is going to receive the mark of the beast, whatever that is, there
will be a population of people who do not fit either of those categories and get to
continue to live during the millennial reign of Jesus Christ.
They will repopulate the earth.
They will be discipled and many of those will be led in a rebellion at the end of the millennium.
(17:58):
Now this actually makes sense.
OK, why would Jesus do that?
That would be probably the next question that you ask.
Yes.
Right?
Yes.
So whenever people stand before the judgment seat of Christ, especially as they're trained
in our culture, everybody has some excuse for why they're not the biggest, the best
(18:18):
and the brightest.
It's because they didn't have the same privileges.
They didn't have the same opportunities.
They didn't have a good mom and dad.
They didn't grow up in church.
There's all these excuses that people are going to present.
Well during the millennial reign of Jesus Christ, the nations of the earth will have
(18:41):
perfect leadership.
Everyone will have the opportunities that match their skills.
And at the end of the day, there's still going to be those who rebel, which just functions
to illustrate Jesus Christ is right and good and righteous at condemning people to eternal
(19:04):
damnation because even with the perfect leadership, the best information, the proper opportunities,
they still refuse to obey.
So if I can kind of sum up, you tell me if I'm off.
It's once again, the God providing another chance to choose.
(19:32):
We always get to choose to serve him.
And I think of that as being the graciousness of God to make sure there are, you didn't
get missed.
You didn't not hear.
You didn't everyone that will all been covered when Jesus reigns during that time.
(20:00):
We should never underestimate the goodness and the mercy of God.
And God doesn't want anyone to be condemned to hell.
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believe it
that name should not perish, have everlasting life for God did not send his son to condemn
(20:23):
the world, but to save the world.
And so Jesus is going to go to any and every link to make sure that people have the opportunity
to repent, to acknowledge him for who he is and to make the choice to bow their knee in
loyalty to his sovereign governance.
(20:46):
Yeah.
Amen.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
We're thankful for all of that.
So you, as I follow, I have the NIV Bible.
What do you use?
It's a little different, not a lot different, but a little different.
(21:07):
I do use the NIV.
So that's like the original Bible that I started reading.
I've still got my first Bible that my mom bought me when I was baptized in 1987.
But I day in and day out, I use the ESV, the English standard version.
It leans towards a literal interpretation of the text.
(21:28):
So the NIV is what's called a dynamic equivalence.
It tries to make the original Greek and Hebrew more readable.
And the ESV leans more literal.
Now you've got other translations that are literal, like the old American standard version,
the old American standard version, very literal, but it's kind of hard to read because it's
(21:51):
old.
So this is kind of an updated, more readable literal translation of the text.
Okay.
Sorry, I kind of beard off a minute.
That's okay.
That's a good question.
As I was following, I knew it was a little bit different.
And by the way, the ESV study Bible is a very good study Bible.
Okay.
It's got good, useful notes in it.
(22:12):
Some of those study Bibles have, when you read this first, how does it make you feel
to know that, I'm not interested in my feelings right now.
I want to know what this means.
You want to seek for understanding.
So I guess the follow up of that is as a believer, you know, always the question I think we ask
(22:39):
when we get to revelations is, have I done everything I needed to do?
Am I ready to meet Jesus when he returns?
And so what would you say about that?
(23:00):
It's kind of like beating a dead horse.
But I mean, I'll probably repeating this until I die.
You know, there are three primary means of grace that we inherit from our Wesleyan tradition.
And John Wesley probably got it from the early church fathers.
(23:23):
We need to make it our priority to spend our best time, energy and effort growing in our
understanding of scripture.
Number one, there aren't that many people who are doing that.
Even who are professional pastors.
Okay.
Okay.
A lot of them spend most of their best time and energy trying to be popular when it when
(23:46):
popularity contests and market their church and network and things like that, which is
not a bad thing to do.
But these are primary.
We need to work at growing in our understanding of scripture.
Now, listen, thinking is hard work.
That's why most people don't do it.
(24:07):
You know, people don't think unless I'm out there sweating and doing something practical,
you know, I'm not working.
No, thinking is very difficult work.
And so that's why most people don't do it.
So in our understanding of scripture, spend time in prayer and by prayer, we don't just
mean talking to God about our problems.
We mean spending focused time listening to what the Holy Spirit is saying to us.
(24:34):
Okay.
The more we understand scripture, the better we can hear the Holy Spirit.
And then point number three, gathering with other believers for worship.
We need to be dedicating our lives to these things.
Now as we do these things, we will see clearly to what God wants, wants us to do in the world,
(24:59):
where our place is in the world so that we can produce fruit for him.
You know, but if you do those three things, you're going to beat 90 making this number
up obviously, 97% of the body of Christ.
So and you know, we have all of the tools in the world at our fingertips to be able
(25:24):
to grow in our understanding of these things.
So and tools meaning well with, you know, with, you know, with a sub stack, I'm able
to publish my sermons so that if you've got questions about anything, I try and cite and
document things so you can follow the train of thought and see for yourself.
(25:48):
We've got YouTube, some of the best teachers in the world that are on YouTube.
You know, and so you know, libraries are becoming a thing of the past because you can find pretty
much anything you want online at the click of a button.
Right.
Yeah.
Yes.
You know, yeah, limitless resources.
And Debbie, the book of Daniel talks about this.
(26:10):
Okay.
Money shall go to and fro and knowledge shall increase.
And so we are see, we are living through the fulfillment of that prophecy with travel being
as easy as it is and with access to knowledge being unprecedented.
(26:31):
Remember back in the day when you used to have to go to the library and go to the Dewey
decimal system and look at those cards and it takes you two hours to find one citation.
Right.
You know, so as a believer, how do I know I'm listening or reading the right information?
(26:53):
I mean, I know from the Bible, but let's say I'm looking at something on YouTube or something
that's been posted.
How do I know I've landed on truth and not someone's, as you stated earlier, personal
belief system?
(27:14):
Have you ever heard how blind people can tell the difference between real currency and counterfeit
currency?
Have you ever heard this analogy?
No.
The key is you become so familiar with the authentic that you can spot a fake from a
mile away.
And so again, going back to the means of grace, those three things, you become so familiar
(27:40):
with the authentic, you can smell something funny when you see it.
You know, uh, beyond that, it's very difficult because I found some really good information
from some kind of fringe sources, you know, uh, now when I say fringe, they're willing
(28:02):
to delve into topics that are controversial and sensational, but I found one of my most
important mentors through some of these people and, and he's a very high quality, legitimate
scholar.
So Dr. Michael Heiser, he's got a PhD from the university of Madison, Wisconsin, which
(28:25):
is a academic seminary.
And then he was the scholar in residence at Logos Bible software and his work is amazing.
So and I found out about him through some kind of weird people, you know, so it's, it's
kind of difficult to say how I, the best advice I can give is become so familiar with the
(28:47):
authentic what's in, what's in here, the contents of this book, uh, that you'll know if something
doesn't smell right.
Okay.
You know, okay.
And I remember even being a teenager and knowing that, you know, having like real institutional
credible people tell me things like, well, the gifts of the Holy spirit were ended once
(29:10):
the Bible was formed.
And I'm like, I've read that new Testament, it doesn't say anything like that in there.
Well, yeah, it says that, you know, blah, blah, blah.
It's like, that's not what that says, you know?
And so I was never bullied by these people, you know, uh, which is what a lot of this
is is bullying, you know, that's not what that means.
(29:33):
Well, I know that's what you think that says, but that's not what that means.
Okay.
You know, so whatever.
So this is our reference.
This is our source.
Yep.
Everything should align with what we read on these pages.
And I would also say in the spirit of John Wesley, John Wesley is a very good litmus
(29:57):
test for what is reliable thinking about the Bible.
And John Wesley and the early Methodists would point us back to the early church fathers.
Okay.
And one of them I've cited in here within the first 300 years of the church before the
church began becoming corrupted with political power and status and things like that.
(30:21):
That is a very reliable testimony of how to think properly about scripture.
So if you can't find it in the tradition of the church, you're off base.
That's why a lot of theology that was created in the Protestant Reformation, for instance,
the Calvinism, if it's a theology that's invented 1500 years after the fact, it's probably off
(30:46):
balance.
Okay.
Okay.
So we point to the traditions of the church, especially those rooted in the first 300 years
of the early church fathers.
It's going to be a pretty reliable litmus test for what is clear thinking.
Okay.
And in here I cite two men who were discipled by the apostle John himself.
(31:10):
And then they have another disciple, Irenaeus.
I spoke a little bit about this in one of our podcasts, but and they are articulating
the eschatological platform that I've spoken from in this podcast.
And are they the ones who wrote the books that you referenced that aren't in here?
No.
(31:31):
No.
They were written in the writings, but those were written before the time of Jesus.
They were written in the, there's that, they call them the silent years between the last
book of the Bible, Old Testament Malachi and the coming of Jesus.
They call those the silent years, but really they weren't so silent because there are several
books that were written during that timeframe that are included in what most people know
(31:54):
is the Apocrypha.
So.
Okay.
All right.
Well, I think, I think we can end on study your scripture.
You need to know that.
Always.
You need to know the truth.
Always.
Pray all the time and gather with other believers to worship.
(32:16):
Be consistent.
Amen.
Okay.
All right.
Thank you, Ms. Debbie.
Great questions as always.
Okay.
Thank you.
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