November 29, 2024 • 61 mins
Rich is the author of the upcoming book "Up All Night: An Aspie's Memoir of Chasing Girls in Quicksand." He's also the business reporter at the Hobbs News-Sun, doing freelance editing, and plans to teach writing courses at WealthyFish11.com Rich interviews Kendall about moving to Hobbs and the newly formed Global Methodist Church.
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Rich Trout, you work with the Hobbes News Sun and I met you at the prayer meeting at University
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of the Southwest and I kind of, I had an idea that I thought would be good for the community
to know about the recent split that our denomination went through. I think that's a big story because
the, you know, up until the 1950s the United Methodist Church was the largest denomination,
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Protestant denomination in the United States. And so it's a global story really, but it's
also a local story about the split that we went through. So I suggested that to you and
you followed up and here we are.
It's great to be here and this is my first podcast. So I'm honored to be here. I guess
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to start off, I wanted to ask, where did you grow up and what was your career background
up to this point?
Well, I have a pretty checkered history. I grew up in the Tulsa, Oklahoma area, just
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to locate it in general, a small town called Cahouita, a town of about 10,000 people. My
dad was a wrestling coach and athletic director. My mom was a school teacher. And so my, you
know, if you know anything about Oklahoma wrestling, which most people don't, but wrestling
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is like a religion in Oklahoma. And you know, the National Wrestling Hall of Fame is in
Oklahoma. Oklahoma State University has more national championships in wrestling than any
other school in any other sport. And so I mean, I was in the thick of that culture.
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So that was my religion growing up. And so I, we didn't go to church, but I got saved
watching television right before my 16th birthday. I was radically saved and that was kind of
my church. I went to, I watched television pretty much every night after I got saved
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to learn about Christianity. I didn't start going to church until I met my wife in between
my junior and senior year of high school. So she went to a little house church in the
Cahouita area. And then the lady who pastored that church had grown up United Methodist.
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And so, you know, I never really felt comfortable in like the church world, churchy people,
but this little house church was just a bunch of normal people who were just as screwed
up as I was. And so I felt comfortable there, you know? But she discipled me, that church
discipled me. I was at the University of Oklahoma whenever I started attending this church.
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Her husband was on staff as a professor of journalism at Oral Roberts University. So
I transferred to Oral Roberts University so I could attend this church and go to school
and graduated from there. I eventually started pastoring this little house church. And then
when it was time for me to take the next step, she suggested I go to a place called Asbury
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Theological Seminary. Now I didn't even know what a seminary was. You know, I was that
clueless. But my wife and I visited that seminary. We knew it was the right place for us. And
that's where I started making friends that eventually led me into the United Methodist
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Church. I was hired to be a campus pastor at West Texas A&M University. I had never
been a member of a United Methodist Church. The only experience I had had, I helped start
a college ministry at First Methodist Tulsa, which is a prominent church in Methodism.
But I just happened to have a friend that got the job as a college pastor there. And
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so he asked me, hey, come help me start this college ministry. And so that was the only
thing I had on my resume leading into becoming a campus pastor at West Texas A&M University.
But once I got hired there, it was kind of off to the races, so to speak.
Yeah. If somebody asked you, why are you a Methodist student? What would you say to them?
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That is a very important question. Good question. So this is one of my when I went to Asbury
Theological Seminary, you know, I had no idea about the normal church world. And so I started
thinking during my time there, what am I going to do after I graduate from here? Funny story.
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The Oklahoma Conference of the United Methodist Church had a district superintendent who was
holding interviews at Asbury Theological Seminary. So I thought, I'll go talk with this guy and
see what kind of jobs they might have. And so I went and met with them and, you know,
I asked him, you know, do you have any like youth pastor jobs or associate pastor jobs
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that I might be a fit for? And he laughed at me. Like literally, he laughed at me because
I'd never even attended a United Methodist Church. And so I mean, that didn't bother
me. I kind of thought that guy was an idiot. So I started researching other denominations.
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Okay, where would I be a fit according to my beliefs, my theology? And every single
church that I researched had some fly in the ointment with their theology. But United,
the United Methodist theology and doctrine, I had no flies in the ointment. I believed
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my beliefs aligned exactly with their doctrine. And so that was the main reason I chose Methodism.
In spite of all of, you know, there were a lot of problems and just like any groups got
problems, but theologically, it fit me like a glove. And so that's why I've set my roots,
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so to speak, in the United Methodist Church. Right. Okay. All right. Well, I did some research
about the global Methodist Church before I came here this morning. And I just wanted
to ask you what you've seen as some of the challenges the global Methodist Church has
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had in forming. And if it's gotten easier, like if this is going better now compared
to a few years ago. And like, where are you right now, you know, as a global Methodist
Church? There've been a lot of challenges. Most of the challenges have been presented
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by just the politics of United Methodism. We, I was in a conference, the Northwest Texas
Conference of the United Methodist Church, that was largely led by people who were aligned
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with global Methodist beliefs, theological orientation. And so that entire conference
basically left. They made it easy for churches to leave. In most of the nation, there were
major challenges to churches that wanted to align with global Methodist thinking. For
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instance, this church, First Methodist Hobbes, they were part of the New Mexico Annual Conference.
And so it cost them $180,000 to disaffiliate from the United Methodist Church. Now that's
to fund pensions and liabilities for clergy. The bulk of what that was to pay for. But
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even then, they were allowed to keep their property. You know, most of the country, you're
in conferences where if you disaffiliate from the United Methodist Church, not only do you
have to pay those unfunded pension liabilities, but you're also going to have to pay for your
property because the United Methodist Church owns the property. And so it really wasn't
an option for a lot of churches. You know, this church was able to do that. Most churches
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are not able to do that. And so that was a big challenge. And then the challenge of just
figuring out, okay, beyond the theological differences, what are we going to do different
that will position us to be effective at making disciples? The United Methodist Church was
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formed in 1968. As I had said, up until the 1950s, it was the largest Protestant denomination
in the United States. But after 1968, the United Methodist Church has declined every
single year. So clearly what we were doing wasn't working. And so this was a big challenge
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we're still facing, to be honest with you. How do we become effective in the mission
of making disciples of Jesus Christ? And so we're still in the process of figuring that
out, to be honest.
Would you say that the United Methodist Church is struggling right now? Are they, I guess,
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are they in a position where they're still losing members? And what do you think is going
to happen with the First United Methodist Church?
That's a great question. So probably somewhere 2012, 2013, the denomination hired an economist
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to study the plight of the United Methodist Church. The findings of that economist were
that if United Methodism did not find a way to stop the decline by the year 2029, the
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decline would be impossible to reverse. And the denomination would cease to exist by 2040.
Now that doesn't mean that United Methodist Churches would cease to exist. It just means
that the big organization would no longer be capable of functioning. Now think about
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this, Rich. That was before COVID. So COVID accelerated that decline. So churches across
the board nationwide took like a 30% haircut as a consequence of that timeframe. So that
was before COVID and it was before this split. So both of those things have only accelerated
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that decline. So I don't see a bright future for that denomination because typically people
who are, well, I have to bring up other topics. Typically churches that orient themselves
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in a liberal theological matrix do not do well. They're in decline. You could look at
other groups that have experienced the same split that we've experienced like the Presbyterian
Church, the Lutheran Church, and the liberal arms are in a free fall. So I would say the
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future does not look bright for United Methodism.
Okay. I wanted you to go into a little bit about like how you ended up working here.
What was the application process for you and why did you finally decide to come to Hopps?
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Historically in United Methodism, clergy are appointed by bishops and the way that actually
works is district superintendents oversee churches and they report to the bishop on
the best fit that they think is going to be for a church. So with global Methodism, we're
going to kind of reform that practice. Churches now own their property and churches have a
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say in who their pastor is going to be. But the final decision still rests with the denominational
officials. So we've changed that a little bit. So this church had a really rough year.
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They had an initial vote on whether or not to disaffiliate from the United Methodist
Church, which failed by one vote. That was in June of last year, 2023. Some of the leadership
of the church was not satisfied with that vote because they didn't feel like they had
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the adequate information. A lot of people really didn't even know what the vote was
about. And so some of the leadership of this church began organizing and holding meetings
to kind of explain to people what the dynamics were. They had another vote in December of
2020. I'm sorry, what year are we in right now? December of 2023. Now that vote passed
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by a substantial margin. It was like 90 percent. So when they had the initial vote, they had
an interim pastor, United Methodist pastor, come in. And then when they voted in December,
they had a different interim pastor come in. And so they were in a place where they figured
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out who they wanted to be and they were looking for a permanent pastor. And so I got a phone
call. I was in La Mesa, Texas, pastoring a church there, a great church. I could have
stayed there the rest of my ministry, had a great community. But the district superintendent
called me and said, would you be willing to go and interview for the position at Hobbs?
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Now I had already been to Hobbs because I have a motorcycle. And so I go on motorcycle. I
would just go on motorcycle trips. I had lots of free time when I was in La Mesa, you know,
beauty of being in a small town. And, you know, initially you drive through Hobbs on
the Seminole Highway and it doesn't look like much. But on this particular trip, I was I
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went to Hobbs, to Lovington, to Plains, back home to La Mesa. And I got to see a part of
Hobbs that you don't see when you just drive through in the highway. And so after that,
I thought I would just take trips to Hobbs just to come and hang out at Starbucks and,
you know, study for sermons. And I had the thought this was this was January of 2024.
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I had the thought, I wonder if the church in Hobbs will ever come open. Because this
would be a great place to live. And they've got a Texas Roadhouse here. You know, I've
heard people complain about Hobbs. I'm like, try living in La Mesa, Texas for five years.
And you look at Hobbs a little differently. So it was like a month after I had that thought
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that I got that call from that district superintendent. And so I came and interviewed here. I took
my family on a tour of Hobbs. I've got three kids. So my son was going into his junior
year of high school. And so I took them on a tour of Hobbs, let them see, you know, the
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town. And I included my son in the decision making process because, you know, he's that's
a big deal to move a junior in high school to a new place. And so we all agreed that
it was the right move. And the church agreed that I was the right person to come aboard.
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And the rest is history.
All right. What are some things that you really love about Hobbs? Like what are some things
that you first told your family about when you were talking about Hobbs?
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Okay. So and this kind of dovetails with the previous question. You know, La Mesa is a
dying town. And so I could look at Hobbs and study the demographics and see that Hobbs
is a growing town. So that's point number one. There's a lot of opportunity here for
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someone to make disciples of Jesus Christ and build a church. Number two, Hobbs is over
an hour from any major city. Now that's attractive on a lot of levels to me. But a lot of times
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people in communities within striking distance of a city drive to the city, to the mega church,
the entertainment venue to go to church. So that's not really an option for Hobbs. People
in Hobbs are going to go to church in Hobbs. And then point number three is Hobbs is big
enough. It's not a major city where I view there to be a lot of corruption and just group
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think. Hobbs isn't a major city, but it's a big enough city to where we've got like
things like the core. I mean, Texas Roadhouse was the thing that stood out to me at the
time. I've learned there's lots of great places to eat in Hobbs. There's just things that
the core is something that a city like Lubbock would be proud of. Yeah, that's exactly. And
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so there are lots of things to enrich your day to day life here that I've even discovered
since moving here that this is kind of a special place. Really, it's kind of a hidden gem to
me. You know, right? You would never know about everything we offer here. If you're
just driving, that's right. That's exactly right. Okay. Other than riding a motorcycle,
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what are some of your other interests? Maybe another hobby or two that you might have?
So before I moved here, I had a large large personage that I lived in and I had a gym
in my garage. And so I was lifting pretty heavy before I came here. Since I've moved
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here, I have kind of dropped both my motorcycle hobby and my weightlifting hobby because I've
been so busy, to be honest with you, and preoccupied with just getting involved with the church.
But something that, again, it's a hobby, but it's also part of my job is study and research.
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And so just reading and researching things is something that I mean, I cannot let off
the gas on that aspect of my time. But really, I've just been following my kids around. Like
my son plays football with the Eunice Cardinals. So we've been following him and that team
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and that's been a lot of fun to do. But other than, since I've been in Hobbs, it's been
five months, I've been dedicating most of my free time just to doing church work. Yeah.
You mentioned that you do research. Do you also try to read books like either fiction,
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fiction, spiritual? Do you maybe have a favorite book? Reading fiction, so my favorite genre
growing up was fantasy. And so more fantasy than science fiction. I haven't read any fiction
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quite some time. I'm mainly reading things that are developing my understanding of scripture,
even more than like church leadership types of books, which not that interested in. I
mean, you kind of get the gist after a while. But people are hungry for understanding the
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word of God, even if they don't know it yet. And to me, there is enough, when you get really
down to the nuts and bolts, there is enough fascinating content in the Bible to keep you
preoccupied for probably for eternity, to be honest with you. It's fascinating. So that's
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really what I'm absorbed in day in and day out. I mean, I follow politics. I follow economic
thinking, you know, but I don't really go deep in that stuff because it's a hot mess
mostly. And the Bible provides all of the solutions to life problems. If you can get
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people aligned with what's written in there, which is really hard, you know, getting people
to care about it, getting them to be interested in it, and then getting them to get an agreement
with the implications of what's written in there is, take my word for it, very challenging.
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Yeah, I've been great about the Bible being alive. The first time I read the New Testament
was in 2012. And I liked it so much, I read it again later that year. And then in 2013,
I read it three times. Because it just connected with me, engaged me. And I wanted to be able
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to read it. I wanted that to continue. Yep. And every time you read it, you learn something
new, right? Right. Definitely. Yeah. Okay. Do you have a vision for this church and or
maybe a few goals for this church that you'd like to share? So there's the vision and the
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goals for the, for lack of a better term, new denomination. Now, I don't like saying
that because it's not a new denomination. It's a reform movement. We are reforming an
ancient apostolic faith. So just, I'm going to do a brief history of the Methodism. Okay.
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So the mother churches, Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. Okay. These are the
original organized branches of Christendom. What's not as well known is the Anglican Church.
So the Anglican Church is the Church of England, but they trace their history back to missionaries
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from the early church that predate Roman Catholicism. They were founded by missionaries from the
early church. Among them would be St. Patrick. You've heard of St. Patrick, St. Patrick's
Day, right? But among others that founded a Celtic form of Christianity. And so the
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Anglican Church does not, you know, the typical story is King Henry VIII wanted a divorce
from his wife and that's why the Anglican Church left the Roman Catholic Church. The
Anglican Church predates the Roman Catholic Church. So it's a uniquely Celtic form of
apostolic Christianity. Jesus handed his faith to his apostles and they developed Christianity
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to spread to different parts of the world. So the only reason we have the United Methodist
or the Methodist Church is because of the American Revolution. So once the United States
won their independence from Great Britain, the Anglican Church no longer had jurisdiction
in the United States. And John Wesley, who was an Anglican clergyman, had sent out missionaries
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to evangelize the United States. And so they needed to perform baptisms and serve communion
and they couldn't do that unless they were ordained by some apostolic body. And so that's
whenever he saw it necessary to start exercising the powers of a bishop who ordains clergy
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and appoints them to perform the sacraments. I say all that to say this. The vision of
the global Methodist Church is to reform apostolic New Testament Christianity. So that's vision
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number one. We need to reform the faith that Jesus handed to his apostles. Very important.
I believe the world is hungry for that type of Christianity. Now the type of Christianity
that has been predominating the landscape of the United States is what's called seeker
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sensitive Christianity. Have you heard this term? I haven't heard that term, but I've
heard the prosperity gospel. Okay, similar. But right around the year 2000, the leading
thinkers of the church were promoting the idea that we need to create church for unchurched
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people. Having a more evangelistic mindset. And so that means things like creating environments,
more like shopping malls than cathedrals, creating music more like what you hear on
MTV. More like what you'd hear on MTV then. And then dumbing down our
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theology so that people don't have to think as hard about their faith and then really
orienting our ministries towards what's in it for me. That's a great sermon pastor,
but what's in it for me? Okay. And that's created a really kind of consumer oriented
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self centered version of Christianity. And so when we talk about reforming the church,
the original mandate of the Methodist church was to reform the nation, especially the church
and to spread scriptural holiness throughout the land. And in Methodism, holy mean holiness
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means holiness of heart, our affections and holiness of mind, our thinking. And so at
the end of the day, the vision for the global Methodist church and this church are to really
take ownership of our heritage to reform New Testament, apostolic Christianity in our day
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and time. I don't want to necessarily frame seeker sensitive churches negatively. They're
great evangelism venues, but if a person wants to grow in holiness unto becoming a fully
mature Christian, it's going to be difficult to do in those environments. They're going
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to need places that have really dug into committing to reforming apostolic New Testament Christianity
in all of its depth. It says in the book of Acts that the apostle Paul in his ministry,
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he says, I did not neglect to preach to you the whole council of God. And so that's a
big story. And so that's what we're dedicated to a part of being holy, holy in our mind
is really going into the deep things of scripture and the deep things of God and sharing that
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with the body of Christ.
You said I could talk about anything for this interview. So I cannot resist but mention
a book that I wrote that's coming out either January or February. It's called Up All Night
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and Aspie's memoir of chasing girls in quicksand. And with that memoir, I'm hoping to inspire
a lot of people who have Asperger's syndrome or autism to realize they can reach their
dreams. And first chapter of part three of that book is called my crossword. And that's
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about when I moved to house. And that was 2001. I had recently gotten a master's in
journalism. And I started working full time as a reporter. And so I had to talk to people,
all different kinds of people every single day, by phone, in person. Within two months,
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like I could walk up to a stranger and I wasn't scared anymore. And so at the age of 32, my
social skills just started to skyrocket. And it was all thanks to moving to Hobbs. This
was the perfect environment for a reporter just starting out because the people here
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are so welcoming and generous, kind, polite. It was also like being part of family. And
before I came here, I was thinking I would get turned down for an interview maybe once
a week. That never happened. It didn't happen at once. But that was the mindset I had because
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I was coming from Chicago. And I worked in Chicago for six years. I just wasn't happy
there. And I just felt like I needed to go somewhere else. And the year before I came
here, I got on vacation to Albuquerque, Santa Fe. And that's what caused me to fall in love
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with the state. And then I came here and I found out this place is just full of amazing
stories. And I got to be the one who wrote the stories about what was happening. I came
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back to the New Sun in April this year. And it was just like coming back home. And I guess
I wanted to mention that...
How long have you been here now?
I've been here since 2001.
2001.
Okay.
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I worked for the New Sun from 2001 to 2012. Then I went to USW for 2012 until December
last year. And in April, that's when Daniel, the publisher at the New Sun, asked me to
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come back there. And now I'm doing mostly the business reporting. But I also do a lot
of features. And I like to write long. I just wrote a book.
So now is the book out?
The book is not out yet. It's coming out either January or February. Probably February, most
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likely. And the first theme in the book is family. The second theme is my relationship
with God. And it's being published by Christian Faith Publishing. And I've been working really,
really hard on it. The book has been revised to death. And if you find a mistake, I'm sorry,
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but I did my best to make sure there were no mistakes. And I'm looking forward to sharing
that story with as many people as I can. So I can inspire as many people who have Asperger's
as I can.
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And I'm hoping to begin teaching courses, writing courses starting in March. I'd like
to teach a course on writing memoir, also writing nonfiction for people who'd like to
write nonfiction, but not do a memoir.
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Through the university?
No, this is through my own website.
Okay.
The website is wealthyfish11.com
Wealthyfish11.
So if you've ever thought you've had a book inside you, or if you have a great story to
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tell, if your life was something that is really incredible, I would invite you to take that
course. It's actually designed to get people kind of jump started on writing a book. It
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will help people who may have thought about it for a long time and now they actually want
to do it. And one major thing about writing a book is that like you can't do it alone.
When I wrote the memoir, I was making phone calls. I was sending emails to all different
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sorts of people. It was a collaborative project and I got to socialize with a whole bunch
of college friends who I had not talked to in a while. So I would say that doing that
book was a journey for me and it was probably the best journey I've ever been on. And I
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would encourage anyone who's even thought about writing a book to actually go for it
because it was worth it for me. And that's something that took a long time for me to
do because I was dreaming about it since about second grade. But I finally did it and I'm
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hoping this will also help to gain many more Christians who are just confused right now.
They don't know where to go. And I want to help them realize that Christ and God are
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the way to go. Amen.
Everybody's got a story to tell, don't they?
Yeah, definitely. So you mentioned you have two kids.
We've got three kids.
Oh, three kids. I was curious about one of them because you said that he plays for Guinness.
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But I thought you lived at house.
Yes, that's a great question. So in La Mesa, our kids went to Klondike, which is a county
school. That school is a 1A school. My son played six man football. That school is very
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good. The kids were lucky to get to go to school there. That school has won the National
Blue Ribbon Award in Academic Excellence like two years since 2015. My mom's a school teacher.
I was telling her that and she goes, I can't think of maybe one school in the entire state
of Oklahoma that's ever won that award. And so they were really lucky to get to go to
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that school. So when we moved to Hobbs, Hobbs is the biggest high school in the entire state
from what I understand. And football is really important to my boy. And so, you know, going
from playing football in 1A in Texas to Hobbs is just probably too big of a jump for someone
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who's going into their junior year. And so the head football coach at UNIS actually is
a member of our church. And so, and that's a really good football team down there. And
so that just seemed like a more natural fit to help my kids get up and running. My number
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one concern with moving to Hobbs was how are my kids going to do? And so we wanted to make
sure we set them up for as much success as they could have. And so that's mainly the
thinking that went behind that. Now the football coach's wife, his name's, the football coach's
name Greg Jackson, Greg Jackson, his wife, Shaleigh Jackson, my daughter, my youngest
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daughter is in the fifth grade and she's a fifth grade teacher. And so it just seemed
like this is going to be the best situation to help my kids get up and running in a new
environment. Yeah. Versus getting overwhelmed. Right. And you were able to do that because
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it's a small town. Right. You made a connection. Right. Did you want to talk about? Rich, we
can talk about anything. Did you want to talk about sports? Like are you a sports fan? Okay.
Born and raised in Oklahoma, went to the University of Oklahoma. Everyone in my family on both
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sides are huge Oklahoma Sooner fans. My dad used to, when he, my dad went to Norman High
School and used to work at the stadium selling hot dogs and stuff. And he, he was dirt poor
growing up. And so they would let him take food home to eat, you know? And so listen,
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my cousin Junior, I told you wrestling was my religion growing up. My cousin Junior,
my dad's brother Harold, his son Junior, uh, was a all American at the University of Oklahoma
in wrestling and an alternate to the U S Olympic judo team. So, uh, we are, I am a very big
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Oklahoma Sooner fan. Yes. Are you a fan of any professional teams? I used to be a Cowboys
fan. You know, in Oklahoma, you grow up, you're a Sooner fan on Saturday. You're a Cowboys
fan on Sunday. That's how everybody is, you know? Uh, it's really gotten hard to root
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for the Cowboys for reasons everybody knows. Um, so mainly I'm rooting for Sooners in the
NFL. Now I might lose some church members over this. Okay. I am a huge Baker Mayfield
fan. You know, he's like, he is detested in these parts. I don't know if you knew that
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or not because of his, his story, his history with Texas tech, but, uh, he is just to me,
the ultimate overcomer. He's overcome so much and he never lets adversity like destroy him
mentally. And so to me, that's the, the thing I like most about him. I think he's a great
(44:51):
role model for my son and other people in spite of the setbacks that you experience
and the adversity that you experience. If you are psychologically strong, you can overcome
it and not only survive, but thrive. And he's the perfect picture of that, you know? So
(45:13):
Kevin, you said that you used to be a Cowboys fan. Well, I have been a long suffering Cubs
fan all life and there was one year when we didn't have to suffer. Yep. And I remember
it was the year after the Kansas City Royals won the World Series. And I was happy about
(45:36):
that too, cause that was my favorite team growing up. But then when the Cubs made it
to the World Series, that was dream come true. Yeah. And then it lasted seven games and they
almost lost and that's some of the game. Yeah. So it was like, finally after the curse was
(46:03):
broken. I remember that there were kids that, that was right when I was, that was when I
was a campus pastor at West Texas A&M University. And I had several students that were Cubs
fan for some reason down in, you know, they weren't from Chicago. They're just West Texas
kids that rooted for the Cubs. And so that was a big deal around our ministry at that
(46:25):
time and to talk about the curse, you know? Yeah. And then the Chicago White Sox had the
worst record ever in history, just this past year. Wow. And I think they were supposed
to be like before the season started, they had high hopes and that disintegrated very
(46:52):
quickly. That's tough. You know, my Sooners were on track to have one of the worst seasons
they've had in all of their history this year and they beat Alabama last Saturday somehow
and that saved their whole season, you know? So it's amazing how just one, one event, one
(47:15):
game, one connection can change the trajectory of a person's life or a team's, you know,
outlook on the future. Yeah. Now that I found out they beat Alabama, I'm a Sooners fan too.
Welcome aboard. Is there anything else you want to mention about the church? Like do
(47:42):
you have anything coming up soon that people should know about? You know, with the church,
we've got Advent coming up and so that's always a time when people are open to reconnecting
with their faith because, you know, that's when we celebrate the birth of Jesus. And
(48:04):
so we've got a Christmas Eve candlelight service coming up and that's always very popular.
You know, it's the day before Christmas, it's kind of a spectacle where we turn out the
lights and light candles and sing Silent Night and that always is meaningful to people even
if they're not like members of the church, they can come and really connect with. This
(48:30):
is what started the most powerful and influential movement in all of history. And so Christmas
Eve is going to be a big day for us, but really every Sunday in December is going to be built
around the coming of Jesus. Advent, you know, historically Advent is telling the story of
(48:54):
the three comings of God. God came in the person of Jesus Christ. God came in the person
of the Holy Spirit to form the New Testament church. And so God came, God comes in the
(49:14):
person of the Holy Spirit and God is coming at the return of Jesus Christ to the earth.
So Advent is about all three comings. And so that's always a good time to reconnect
with your faith and to kind of encourage people to jump back into the life of the church.
(49:40):
Is there anything about the Christmas season that you really like or is there like maybe
a Christmas memory you have that you might want to share with folks about, you know,
(50:01):
how it symbolizes Christmas for you? Maybe being a Methodist for you.
You know, for people who work in the church world, Christmas and Easter mean extra work.
Typically. But you're excited because people are more engaged with the life of the church.
(50:24):
You know, for most people, ultimately Christmas brings back memories of their childhood. Right?
Special memories. So I was asked this at a when I was getting ordained. We were having
to share stories. Important Christmas memories. OK, so everybody's telling their stories and
(50:52):
I'm sitting there thinking I'm like, there's one memory that stands out for me about Christmas
growing up. So every year during the holidays, whether it was Thanksgiving or Christmas,
I was pulling weight for a wrestling tournament. I was dealing with the stress of having to
(51:12):
go fight some other dude on a mat. OK, so like Thanksgiving, we would go to this tournament
every year called the Oklahoma Open. So from the sixth grade through the 12th grade, I
was in Norman, Oklahoma every year at the toughest wrestling tournament, probably in
the country. Usually getting whipped. And we would eat Thanksgiving dinner at the first
(51:35):
cafeteria every year for Thanksgiving. So Christmas we had what was called the Oolaga
Classic. We would have two a day practices. I can't even tell you how hard those practices
were. There's nothing I've ever done in life as hard as those practices. So everybody else
is off for Christmas break. I'm. Yes, like somebody working two shifts. And at the end
(52:04):
of that second shift, we would have to do 45 minutes of man eaters in a superheated
wrestling room with my uncle yelling obscenities at us. You know, so there's one Christmas
where we were training for this tournament, the Oolaga Classic, and I'm pulling weight
(52:25):
and I never get to eat Christmas food. You know, and we have this major snow storm and
the tournament is canceled and I'm like, yes. And I pig out on sausage balls and divinity.
Divinity is this white candy that was around. I ate so much of that that I threw up that
(52:48):
night and I do this day. I cannot stand the taste of divinity, but I will never forget
how good it felt to just throw off the stress and the pressure of having to go fight another
dude and then to get to eat on Christmas. So that was like that was the Christmas memory
(53:11):
that stood out to me the most. And it is to this day, to be honest with you. Yeah. Yeah.
All right. Is there anything else that you wanted to talk about? Did we cover all of
your questions? I believe we did cover cover all of them. Yeah. Well, if you think you've
(53:37):
got enough to tell our story, we didn't really touch on, we didn't really touch on why the
split happened. Um, and I think that's in, that's an important story to be told. It might,
it might be too complicated for a newspaper story, you know, um, but at the end of the
(54:01):
day, there was a group that was pushing for changing the definition of Christian marriage,
which is a lifelong monogamous relationship between one man and one woman to allow for
homosexual marriage in our churches. And it was, uh, affirming the ordination of active
(54:27):
acting, practicing homosexual clergy. And so there is a deep theological perspective
behind those differences of opinion that are, that make that issue just the tip of the iceberg.
(54:49):
Like I was telling you, there's so much beneath the surface that, um, created a division before
that particular issue took center stage. Um, are you saying like that issue touched on
a lot of other issues? Yeah, like, uh, well, just to do a brief rundown. So with the Protestant
(55:15):
reformation in the 1500s that created a division in the church. Now that led to actual all-out
war in Europe for over a hundred years. Uh, people got sick of the constant war between
Christian factions, literal war. Um, so in the 1700s that led to what is called the enlightenment
(55:39):
where the prominent thinkers began to become more secular in their thinking because they
were sick of the fighting between Christian groups. And so that led directly to, you know,
part of our constitution, a clear distinction between church and state, you know, uh, now
(56:00):
that secular thinking that was started in the 1700s began taking over our universities
and that began crossing over into our seminaries. So in the, uh, early 1900s, the place where
clergy went to get trained to lead the church became more secular in their thinking about
(56:24):
the Bible, demythologizing the text, stripping out the supernatural aspects of scripture,
thinking of it primarily as a book written by a man, uh, rather than a book revealed
by God. And so that's why in the, uh, in the 1900s, it became a joke that the pastors went,
(56:48):
they didn't go to seminaries, they went to cemeteries because it's the place where their
faith went to die. And so that's kind of a joke to this day, but, uh, it is that secular
mindset applied to scripture and religion that leads people to conclude some of the
(57:11):
things written in the book are optional and do not apply to us today. We have evolved
and progressed beyond some of the backward standards that are written there. So there
are those of us who believe that the scripture is primarily divine revelation. It's God's
(57:36):
self disclosure to humanity. It is unique. It is authoritative and it is not to be so
easily dismissed. And so that's the big backdrop behind the division that leads us to two different
conclusions about many issues, not just the homosexual issue, many other issues that divide
(58:00):
us, you know, and most of them are reflected in the political realm.
Yeah. And I think like politics, that could cause a lot of people to stop going to a church
because the pastor's politics doesn't agree with theirs. And I know my pastor, I go to
(58:24):
house Redeemer, his name is Russell Cohen. And he always keeps politics out of every
sermon he does. It's just all about scripture. And we've been doing the book of John for
two years now. He told me that. He just thrives with detail and he examines every sentence,
(58:53):
every word. And he tells you about things you never heard about because he does research,
all butcher research. He spends all day Saturday just practicing his sermon. And every time
he does sermon, like I feel like it's a brand new amazing experience. And I believe it's
(59:21):
his, his loyalty to interpreting scripture that makes it so amazing. And that's why I
keep going to house Redeemer. We meet in a southeast Mexico Baptist building, Crosshomale
(59:43):
Hospital. And we're growing very quickly. I wrote a story recently about how we increased
by about 40 members just over the past year. I believe a big part of that is the people
(01:00:04):
who go there plus Russell's sermons. Well, that's exactly what I told him. People are
hungry for the word of God, whether they know it or not. If you make that your priority
and you do it well, it will produce results. I believe that with all my heart. So yeah,
(01:00:30):
I never realized there were so many parts in the Bible that God made certain they happened.
And Russell points out exactly where in the Bible he does that. Where did God make sure
something happened because that fulfills scripture?
(01:00:54):
Well, you think you got enough to make an article?
I believe I have enough and I appreciate being able to come on your show very much. I would
love to come back here and talk to you again. Anytime you've got a conversation you want
(01:01:19):
to have or a story you want to write, this table is always open to you. All right, I'll
be here. All right. Thanks for coming, Rich. Enjoyed it.
Rich Trout, you work with the Hobbes News Sun and I met you at the prayer meeting at University
(00:16):
of the Southwest and I kind of, I had an idea that I thought would be good for the community
to know about the recent split that our denomination went through. I think that's a big story because
the, you know, up until the 1950s the United Methodist Church was the largest denomination,
(00:40):
Protestant denomination in the United States. And so it's a global story really, but it's
also a local story about the split that we went through. So I suggested that to you and
you followed up and here we are.
It's great to be here and this is my first podcast. So I'm honored to be here. I guess
(01:04):
to start off, I wanted to ask, where did you grow up and what was your career background
up to this point?
Well, I have a pretty checkered history. I grew up in the Tulsa, Oklahoma area, just
(01:26):
to locate it in general, a small town called Cahouita, a town of about 10,000 people. My
dad was a wrestling coach and athletic director. My mom was a school teacher. And so my, you
know, if you know anything about Oklahoma wrestling, which most people don't, but wrestling
(01:46):
is like a religion in Oklahoma. And you know, the National Wrestling Hall of Fame is in
Oklahoma. Oklahoma State University has more national championships in wrestling than any
other school in any other sport. And so I mean, I was in the thick of that culture.
(02:09):
So that was my religion growing up. And so I, we didn't go to church, but I got saved
watching television right before my 16th birthday. I was radically saved and that was kind of
my church. I went to, I watched television pretty much every night after I got saved
(02:33):
to learn about Christianity. I didn't start going to church until I met my wife in between
my junior and senior year of high school. So she went to a little house church in the
Cahouita area. And then the lady who pastored that church had grown up United Methodist.
(02:53):
And so, you know, I never really felt comfortable in like the church world, churchy people,
but this little house church was just a bunch of normal people who were just as screwed
up as I was. And so I felt comfortable there, you know? But she discipled me, that church
discipled me. I was at the University of Oklahoma whenever I started attending this church.
(03:25):
Her husband was on staff as a professor of journalism at Oral Roberts University. So
I transferred to Oral Roberts University so I could attend this church and go to school
and graduated from there. I eventually started pastoring this little house church. And then
when it was time for me to take the next step, she suggested I go to a place called Asbury
(03:49):
Theological Seminary. Now I didn't even know what a seminary was. You know, I was that
clueless. But my wife and I visited that seminary. We knew it was the right place for us. And
that's where I started making friends that eventually led me into the United Methodist
(04:11):
Church. I was hired to be a campus pastor at West Texas A&M University. I had never
been a member of a United Methodist Church. The only experience I had had, I helped start
a college ministry at First Methodist Tulsa, which is a prominent church in Methodism.
But I just happened to have a friend that got the job as a college pastor there. And
(04:33):
so he asked me, hey, come help me start this college ministry. And so that was the only
thing I had on my resume leading into becoming a campus pastor at West Texas A&M University.
But once I got hired there, it was kind of off to the races, so to speak.
Yeah. If somebody asked you, why are you a Methodist student? What would you say to them?
(05:01):
That is a very important question. Good question. So this is one of my when I went to Asbury
Theological Seminary, you know, I had no idea about the normal church world. And so I started
thinking during my time there, what am I going to do after I graduate from here? Funny story.
(05:23):
The Oklahoma Conference of the United Methodist Church had a district superintendent who was
holding interviews at Asbury Theological Seminary. So I thought, I'll go talk with this guy and
see what kind of jobs they might have. And so I went and met with them and, you know,
I asked him, you know, do you have any like youth pastor jobs or associate pastor jobs
(05:47):
that I might be a fit for? And he laughed at me. Like literally, he laughed at me because
I'd never even attended a United Methodist Church. And so I mean, that didn't bother
me. I kind of thought that guy was an idiot. So I started researching other denominations.
(06:08):
Okay, where would I be a fit according to my beliefs, my theology? And every single
church that I researched had some fly in the ointment with their theology. But United,
the United Methodist theology and doctrine, I had no flies in the ointment. I believed
(06:31):
my beliefs aligned exactly with their doctrine. And so that was the main reason I chose Methodism.
In spite of all of, you know, there were a lot of problems and just like any groups got
problems, but theologically, it fit me like a glove. And so that's why I've set my roots,
(06:56):
so to speak, in the United Methodist Church. Right. Okay. All right. Well, I did some research
about the global Methodist Church before I came here this morning. And I just wanted
to ask you what you've seen as some of the challenges the global Methodist Church has
(07:21):
had in forming. And if it's gotten easier, like if this is going better now compared
to a few years ago. And like, where are you right now, you know, as a global Methodist
Church? There've been a lot of challenges. Most of the challenges have been presented
(07:48):
by just the politics of United Methodism. We, I was in a conference, the Northwest Texas
Conference of the United Methodist Church, that was largely led by people who were aligned
(08:12):
with global Methodist beliefs, theological orientation. And so that entire conference
basically left. They made it easy for churches to leave. In most of the nation, there were
major challenges to churches that wanted to align with global Methodist thinking. For
(08:39):
instance, this church, First Methodist Hobbes, they were part of the New Mexico Annual Conference.
And so it cost them $180,000 to disaffiliate from the United Methodist Church. Now that's
to fund pensions and liabilities for clergy. The bulk of what that was to pay for. But
(09:06):
even then, they were allowed to keep their property. You know, most of the country, you're
in conferences where if you disaffiliate from the United Methodist Church, not only do you
have to pay those unfunded pension liabilities, but you're also going to have to pay for your
property because the United Methodist Church owns the property. And so it really wasn't
an option for a lot of churches. You know, this church was able to do that. Most churches
(09:30):
are not able to do that. And so that was a big challenge. And then the challenge of just
figuring out, okay, beyond the theological differences, what are we going to do different
that will position us to be effective at making disciples? The United Methodist Church was
(09:53):
formed in 1968. As I had said, up until the 1950s, it was the largest Protestant denomination
in the United States. But after 1968, the United Methodist Church has declined every
single year. So clearly what we were doing wasn't working. And so this was a big challenge
(10:18):
we're still facing, to be honest with you. How do we become effective in the mission
of making disciples of Jesus Christ? And so we're still in the process of figuring that
out, to be honest.
Would you say that the United Methodist Church is struggling right now? Are they, I guess,
(10:48):
are they in a position where they're still losing members? And what do you think is going
to happen with the First United Methodist Church?
That's a great question. So probably somewhere 2012, 2013, the denomination hired an economist
(11:16):
to study the plight of the United Methodist Church. The findings of that economist were
that if United Methodism did not find a way to stop the decline by the year 2029, the
(11:37):
decline would be impossible to reverse. And the denomination would cease to exist by 2040.
Now that doesn't mean that United Methodist Churches would cease to exist. It just means
that the big organization would no longer be capable of functioning. Now think about
(12:02):
this, Rich. That was before COVID. So COVID accelerated that decline. So churches across
the board nationwide took like a 30% haircut as a consequence of that timeframe. So that
was before COVID and it was before this split. So both of those things have only accelerated
(12:29):
that decline. So I don't see a bright future for that denomination because typically people
who are, well, I have to bring up other topics. Typically churches that orient themselves
(12:56):
in a liberal theological matrix do not do well. They're in decline. You could look at
other groups that have experienced the same split that we've experienced like the Presbyterian
Church, the Lutheran Church, and the liberal arms are in a free fall. So I would say the
(13:16):
future does not look bright for United Methodism.
Okay. I wanted you to go into a little bit about like how you ended up working here.
What was the application process for you and why did you finally decide to come to Hopps?
(13:49):
Historically in United Methodism, clergy are appointed by bishops and the way that actually
works is district superintendents oversee churches and they report to the bishop on
the best fit that they think is going to be for a church. So with global Methodism, we're
going to kind of reform that practice. Churches now own their property and churches have a
(14:16):
say in who their pastor is going to be. But the final decision still rests with the denominational
officials. So we've changed that a little bit. So this church had a really rough year.
(14:39):
They had an initial vote on whether or not to disaffiliate from the United Methodist
Church, which failed by one vote. That was in June of last year, 2023. Some of the leadership
of the church was not satisfied with that vote because they didn't feel like they had
(15:01):
the adequate information. A lot of people really didn't even know what the vote was
about. And so some of the leadership of this church began organizing and holding meetings
to kind of explain to people what the dynamics were. They had another vote in December of
2020. I'm sorry, what year are we in right now? December of 2023. Now that vote passed
(15:30):
by a substantial margin. It was like 90 percent. So when they had the initial vote, they had
an interim pastor, United Methodist pastor, come in. And then when they voted in December,
they had a different interim pastor come in. And so they were in a place where they figured
(15:50):
out who they wanted to be and they were looking for a permanent pastor. And so I got a phone
call. I was in La Mesa, Texas, pastoring a church there, a great church. I could have
stayed there the rest of my ministry, had a great community. But the district superintendent
called me and said, would you be willing to go and interview for the position at Hobbs?
(16:16):
Now I had already been to Hobbs because I have a motorcycle. And so I go on motorcycle. I
would just go on motorcycle trips. I had lots of free time when I was in La Mesa, you know,
beauty of being in a small town. And, you know, initially you drive through Hobbs on
the Seminole Highway and it doesn't look like much. But on this particular trip, I was I
(16:39):
went to Hobbs, to Lovington, to Plains, back home to La Mesa. And I got to see a part of
Hobbs that you don't see when you just drive through in the highway. And so after that,
I thought I would just take trips to Hobbs just to come and hang out at Starbucks and,
you know, study for sermons. And I had the thought this was this was January of 2024.
(17:03):
I had the thought, I wonder if the church in Hobbs will ever come open. Because this
would be a great place to live. And they've got a Texas Roadhouse here. You know, I've
heard people complain about Hobbs. I'm like, try living in La Mesa, Texas for five years.
And you look at Hobbs a little differently. So it was like a month after I had that thought
(17:28):
that I got that call from that district superintendent. And so I came and interviewed here. I took
my family on a tour of Hobbs. I've got three kids. So my son was going into his junior
year of high school. And so I took them on a tour of Hobbs, let them see, you know, the
(17:50):
town. And I included my son in the decision making process because, you know, he's that's
a big deal to move a junior in high school to a new place. And so we all agreed that
it was the right move. And the church agreed that I was the right person to come aboard.
(18:10):
And the rest is history.
All right. What are some things that you really love about Hobbs? Like what are some things
that you first told your family about when you were talking about Hobbs?
(18:31):
Okay. So and this kind of dovetails with the previous question. You know, La Mesa is a
dying town. And so I could look at Hobbs and study the demographics and see that Hobbs
is a growing town. So that's point number one. There's a lot of opportunity here for
(18:54):
someone to make disciples of Jesus Christ and build a church. Number two, Hobbs is over
an hour from any major city. Now that's attractive on a lot of levels to me. But a lot of times
(19:16):
people in communities within striking distance of a city drive to the city, to the mega church,
the entertainment venue to go to church. So that's not really an option for Hobbs. People
in Hobbs are going to go to church in Hobbs. And then point number three is Hobbs is big
enough. It's not a major city where I view there to be a lot of corruption and just group
(19:48):
think. Hobbs isn't a major city, but it's a big enough city to where we've got like
things like the core. I mean, Texas Roadhouse was the thing that stood out to me at the
time. I've learned there's lots of great places to eat in Hobbs. There's just things that
the core is something that a city like Lubbock would be proud of. Yeah, that's exactly. And
(20:14):
so there are lots of things to enrich your day to day life here that I've even discovered
since moving here that this is kind of a special place. Really, it's kind of a hidden gem to
me. You know, right? You would never know about everything we offer here. If you're
just driving, that's right. That's exactly right. Okay. Other than riding a motorcycle,
(20:45):
what are some of your other interests? Maybe another hobby or two that you might have?
So before I moved here, I had a large large personage that I lived in and I had a gym
in my garage. And so I was lifting pretty heavy before I came here. Since I've moved
(21:08):
here, I have kind of dropped both my motorcycle hobby and my weightlifting hobby because I've
been so busy, to be honest with you, and preoccupied with just getting involved with the church.
But something that, again, it's a hobby, but it's also part of my job is study and research.
(21:32):
And so just reading and researching things is something that I mean, I cannot let off
the gas on that aspect of my time. But really, I've just been following my kids around. Like
my son plays football with the Eunice Cardinals. So we've been following him and that team
(21:59):
and that's been a lot of fun to do. But other than, since I've been in Hobbs, it's been
five months, I've been dedicating most of my free time just to doing church work. Yeah.
You mentioned that you do research. Do you also try to read books like either fiction,
(22:31):
fiction, spiritual? Do you maybe have a favorite book? Reading fiction, so my favorite genre
growing up was fantasy. And so more fantasy than science fiction. I haven't read any fiction
(23:01):
quite some time. I'm mainly reading things that are developing my understanding of scripture,
even more than like church leadership types of books, which not that interested in. I
mean, you kind of get the gist after a while. But people are hungry for understanding the
(23:28):
word of God, even if they don't know it yet. And to me, there is enough, when you get really
down to the nuts and bolts, there is enough fascinating content in the Bible to keep you
preoccupied for probably for eternity, to be honest with you. It's fascinating. So that's
(23:54):
really what I'm absorbed in day in and day out. I mean, I follow politics. I follow economic
thinking, you know, but I don't really go deep in that stuff because it's a hot mess
mostly. And the Bible provides all of the solutions to life problems. If you can get
(24:23):
people aligned with what's written in there, which is really hard, you know, getting people
to care about it, getting them to be interested in it, and then getting them to get an agreement
with the implications of what's written in there is, take my word for it, very challenging.
(24:44):
Yeah, I've been great about the Bible being alive. The first time I read the New Testament
was in 2012. And I liked it so much, I read it again later that year. And then in 2013,
I read it three times. Because it just connected with me, engaged me. And I wanted to be able
(25:14):
to read it. I wanted that to continue. Yep. And every time you read it, you learn something
new, right? Right. Definitely. Yeah. Okay. Do you have a vision for this church and or
maybe a few goals for this church that you'd like to share? So there's the vision and the
(25:48):
goals for the, for lack of a better term, new denomination. Now, I don't like saying
that because it's not a new denomination. It's a reform movement. We are reforming an
ancient apostolic faith. So just, I'm going to do a brief history of the Methodism. Okay.
(26:16):
So the mother churches, Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. Okay. These are the
original organized branches of Christendom. What's not as well known is the Anglican Church.
So the Anglican Church is the Church of England, but they trace their history back to missionaries
(26:43):
from the early church that predate Roman Catholicism. They were founded by missionaries from the
early church. Among them would be St. Patrick. You've heard of St. Patrick, St. Patrick's
Day, right? But among others that founded a Celtic form of Christianity. And so the
(27:06):
Anglican Church does not, you know, the typical story is King Henry VIII wanted a divorce
from his wife and that's why the Anglican Church left the Roman Catholic Church. The
Anglican Church predates the Roman Catholic Church. So it's a uniquely Celtic form of
apostolic Christianity. Jesus handed his faith to his apostles and they developed Christianity
(27:37):
to spread to different parts of the world. So the only reason we have the United Methodist
or the Methodist Church is because of the American Revolution. So once the United States
won their independence from Great Britain, the Anglican Church no longer had jurisdiction
in the United States. And John Wesley, who was an Anglican clergyman, had sent out missionaries
(28:02):
to evangelize the United States. And so they needed to perform baptisms and serve communion
and they couldn't do that unless they were ordained by some apostolic body. And so that's
whenever he saw it necessary to start exercising the powers of a bishop who ordains clergy
(28:23):
and appoints them to perform the sacraments. I say all that to say this. The vision of
the global Methodist Church is to reform apostolic New Testament Christianity. So that's vision
(28:46):
number one. We need to reform the faith that Jesus handed to his apostles. Very important.
I believe the world is hungry for that type of Christianity. Now the type of Christianity
that has been predominating the landscape of the United States is what's called seeker
(29:07):
sensitive Christianity. Have you heard this term? I haven't heard that term, but I've
heard the prosperity gospel. Okay, similar. But right around the year 2000, the leading
thinkers of the church were promoting the idea that we need to create church for unchurched
(29:28):
people. Having a more evangelistic mindset. And so that means things like creating environments,
more like shopping malls than cathedrals, creating music more like what you hear on
MTV. More like what you'd hear on MTV then. And then dumbing down our
(29:58):
theology so that people don't have to think as hard about their faith and then really
orienting our ministries towards what's in it for me. That's a great sermon pastor,
but what's in it for me? Okay. And that's created a really kind of consumer oriented
(30:19):
self centered version of Christianity. And so when we talk about reforming the church,
the original mandate of the Methodist church was to reform the nation, especially the church
and to spread scriptural holiness throughout the land. And in Methodism, holy mean holiness
(30:42):
means holiness of heart, our affections and holiness of mind, our thinking. And so at
the end of the day, the vision for the global Methodist church and this church are to really
take ownership of our heritage to reform New Testament, apostolic Christianity in our day
(31:08):
and time. I don't want to necessarily frame seeker sensitive churches negatively. They're
great evangelism venues, but if a person wants to grow in holiness unto becoming a fully
mature Christian, it's going to be difficult to do in those environments. They're going
(31:30):
to need places that have really dug into committing to reforming apostolic New Testament Christianity
in all of its depth. It says in the book of Acts that the apostle Paul in his ministry,
(31:53):
he says, I did not neglect to preach to you the whole council of God. And so that's a
big story. And so that's what we're dedicated to a part of being holy, holy in our mind
is really going into the deep things of scripture and the deep things of God and sharing that
(32:14):
with the body of Christ.
You said I could talk about anything for this interview. So I cannot resist but mention
a book that I wrote that's coming out either January or February. It's called Up All Night
(32:36):
and Aspie's memoir of chasing girls in quicksand. And with that memoir, I'm hoping to inspire
a lot of people who have Asperger's syndrome or autism to realize they can reach their
dreams. And first chapter of part three of that book is called my crossword. And that's
(32:59):
about when I moved to house. And that was 2001. I had recently gotten a master's in
journalism. And I started working full time as a reporter. And so I had to talk to people,
all different kinds of people every single day, by phone, in person. Within two months,
(33:23):
like I could walk up to a stranger and I wasn't scared anymore. And so at the age of 32, my
social skills just started to skyrocket. And it was all thanks to moving to Hobbs. This
was the perfect environment for a reporter just starting out because the people here
(33:45):
are so welcoming and generous, kind, polite. It was also like being part of family. And
before I came here, I was thinking I would get turned down for an interview maybe once
a week. That never happened. It didn't happen at once. But that was the mindset I had because
(34:12):
I was coming from Chicago. And I worked in Chicago for six years. I just wasn't happy
there. And I just felt like I needed to go somewhere else. And the year before I came
here, I got on vacation to Albuquerque, Santa Fe. And that's what caused me to fall in love
(34:38):
with the state. And then I came here and I found out this place is just full of amazing
stories. And I got to be the one who wrote the stories about what was happening. I came
(35:00):
back to the New Sun in April this year. And it was just like coming back home. And I guess
I wanted to mention that...
How long have you been here now?
I've been here since 2001.
2001.
Okay.
(35:20):
I worked for the New Sun from 2001 to 2012. Then I went to USW for 2012 until December
last year. And in April, that's when Daniel, the publisher at the New Sun, asked me to
(35:42):
come back there. And now I'm doing mostly the business reporting. But I also do a lot
of features. And I like to write long. I just wrote a book.
So now is the book out?
The book is not out yet. It's coming out either January or February. Probably February, most
(36:06):
likely. And the first theme in the book is family. The second theme is my relationship
with God. And it's being published by Christian Faith Publishing. And I've been working really,
really hard on it. The book has been revised to death. And if you find a mistake, I'm sorry,
(36:35):
but I did my best to make sure there were no mistakes. And I'm looking forward to sharing
that story with as many people as I can. So I can inspire as many people who have Asperger's
as I can.
(36:56):
And I'm hoping to begin teaching courses, writing courses starting in March. I'd like
to teach a course on writing memoir, also writing nonfiction for people who'd like to
write nonfiction, but not do a memoir.
(37:20):
Through the university?
No, this is through my own website.
Okay.
The website is wealthyfish11.com
Wealthyfish11.
So if you've ever thought you've had a book inside you, or if you have a great story to
(37:44):
tell, if your life was something that is really incredible, I would invite you to take that
course. It's actually designed to get people kind of jump started on writing a book. It
(38:06):
will help people who may have thought about it for a long time and now they actually want
to do it. And one major thing about writing a book is that like you can't do it alone.
When I wrote the memoir, I was making phone calls. I was sending emails to all different
(38:29):
sorts of people. It was a collaborative project and I got to socialize with a whole bunch
of college friends who I had not talked to in a while. So I would say that doing that
book was a journey for me and it was probably the best journey I've ever been on. And I
(38:57):
would encourage anyone who's even thought about writing a book to actually go for it
because it was worth it for me. And that's something that took a long time for me to
do because I was dreaming about it since about second grade. But I finally did it and I'm
(39:22):
hoping this will also help to gain many more Christians who are just confused right now.
They don't know where to go. And I want to help them realize that Christ and God are
(39:45):
the way to go. Amen.
Everybody's got a story to tell, don't they?
Yeah, definitely. So you mentioned you have two kids.
We've got three kids.
Oh, three kids. I was curious about one of them because you said that he plays for Guinness.
(40:12):
But I thought you lived at house.
Yes, that's a great question. So in La Mesa, our kids went to Klondike, which is a county
school. That school is a 1A school. My son played six man football. That school is very
(40:37):
good. The kids were lucky to get to go to school there. That school has won the National
Blue Ribbon Award in Academic Excellence like two years since 2015. My mom's a school teacher.
I was telling her that and she goes, I can't think of maybe one school in the entire state
of Oklahoma that's ever won that award. And so they were really lucky to get to go to
(41:01):
that school. So when we moved to Hobbs, Hobbs is the biggest high school in the entire state
from what I understand. And football is really important to my boy. And so, you know, going
from playing football in 1A in Texas to Hobbs is just probably too big of a jump for someone
(41:25):
who's going into their junior year. And so the head football coach at UNIS actually is
a member of our church. And so, and that's a really good football team down there. And
so that just seemed like a more natural fit to help my kids get up and running. My number
(41:47):
one concern with moving to Hobbs was how are my kids going to do? And so we wanted to make
sure we set them up for as much success as they could have. And so that's mainly the
thinking that went behind that. Now the football coach's wife, his name's, the football coach's
name Greg Jackson, Greg Jackson, his wife, Shaleigh Jackson, my daughter, my youngest
(42:11):
daughter is in the fifth grade and she's a fifth grade teacher. And so it just seemed
like this is going to be the best situation to help my kids get up and running in a new
environment. Yeah. Versus getting overwhelmed. Right. And you were able to do that because
(42:37):
it's a small town. Right. You made a connection. Right. Did you want to talk about? Rich, we
can talk about anything. Did you want to talk about sports? Like are you a sports fan? Okay.
Born and raised in Oklahoma, went to the University of Oklahoma. Everyone in my family on both
(43:02):
sides are huge Oklahoma Sooner fans. My dad used to, when he, my dad went to Norman High
School and used to work at the stadium selling hot dogs and stuff. And he, he was dirt poor
growing up. And so they would let him take food home to eat, you know? And so listen,
(43:24):
my cousin Junior, I told you wrestling was my religion growing up. My cousin Junior,
my dad's brother Harold, his son Junior, uh, was a all American at the University of Oklahoma
in wrestling and an alternate to the U S Olympic judo team. So, uh, we are, I am a very big
(43:44):
Oklahoma Sooner fan. Yes. Are you a fan of any professional teams? I used to be a Cowboys
fan. You know, in Oklahoma, you grow up, you're a Sooner fan on Saturday. You're a Cowboys
fan on Sunday. That's how everybody is, you know? Uh, it's really gotten hard to root
(44:05):
for the Cowboys for reasons everybody knows. Um, so mainly I'm rooting for Sooners in the
NFL. Now I might lose some church members over this. Okay. I am a huge Baker Mayfield
fan. You know, he's like, he is detested in these parts. I don't know if you knew that
(44:30):
or not because of his, his story, his history with Texas tech, but, uh, he is just to me,
the ultimate overcomer. He's overcome so much and he never lets adversity like destroy him
mentally. And so to me, that's the, the thing I like most about him. I think he's a great
(44:51):
role model for my son and other people in spite of the setbacks that you experience
and the adversity that you experience. If you are psychologically strong, you can overcome
it and not only survive, but thrive. And he's the perfect picture of that, you know? So
(45:13):
Kevin, you said that you used to be a Cowboys fan. Well, I have been a long suffering Cubs
fan all life and there was one year when we didn't have to suffer. Yep. And I remember
it was the year after the Kansas City Royals won the World Series. And I was happy about
(45:36):
that too, cause that was my favorite team growing up. But then when the Cubs made it
to the World Series, that was dream come true. Yeah. And then it lasted seven games and they
almost lost and that's some of the game. Yeah. So it was like, finally after the curse was
(46:03):
broken. I remember that there were kids that, that was right when I was, that was when I
was a campus pastor at West Texas A&M University. And I had several students that were Cubs
fan for some reason down in, you know, they weren't from Chicago. They're just West Texas
kids that rooted for the Cubs. And so that was a big deal around our ministry at that
(46:25):
time and to talk about the curse, you know? Yeah. And then the Chicago White Sox had the
worst record ever in history, just this past year. Wow. And I think they were supposed
to be like before the season started, they had high hopes and that disintegrated very
(46:52):
quickly. That's tough. You know, my Sooners were on track to have one of the worst seasons
they've had in all of their history this year and they beat Alabama last Saturday somehow
and that saved their whole season, you know? So it's amazing how just one, one event, one
(47:15):
game, one connection can change the trajectory of a person's life or a team's, you know,
outlook on the future. Yeah. Now that I found out they beat Alabama, I'm a Sooners fan too.
Welcome aboard. Is there anything else you want to mention about the church? Like do
(47:42):
you have anything coming up soon that people should know about? You know, with the church,
we've got Advent coming up and so that's always a time when people are open to reconnecting
with their faith because, you know, that's when we celebrate the birth of Jesus. And
(48:04):
so we've got a Christmas Eve candlelight service coming up and that's always very popular.
You know, it's the day before Christmas, it's kind of a spectacle where we turn out the
lights and light candles and sing Silent Night and that always is meaningful to people even
if they're not like members of the church, they can come and really connect with. This
(48:30):
is what started the most powerful and influential movement in all of history. And so Christmas
Eve is going to be a big day for us, but really every Sunday in December is going to be built
around the coming of Jesus. Advent, you know, historically Advent is telling the story of
(48:54):
the three comings of God. God came in the person of Jesus Christ. God came in the person
of the Holy Spirit to form the New Testament church. And so God came, God comes in the
(49:14):
person of the Holy Spirit and God is coming at the return of Jesus Christ to the earth.
So Advent is about all three comings. And so that's always a good time to reconnect
with your faith and to kind of encourage people to jump back into the life of the church.
(49:40):
Is there anything about the Christmas season that you really like or is there like maybe
a Christmas memory you have that you might want to share with folks about, you know,
(50:01):
how it symbolizes Christmas for you? Maybe being a Methodist for you.
You know, for people who work in the church world, Christmas and Easter mean extra work.
Typically. But you're excited because people are more engaged with the life of the church.
(50:24):
You know, for most people, ultimately Christmas brings back memories of their childhood. Right?
Special memories. So I was asked this at a when I was getting ordained. We were having
to share stories. Important Christmas memories. OK, so everybody's telling their stories and
(50:52):
I'm sitting there thinking I'm like, there's one memory that stands out for me about Christmas
growing up. So every year during the holidays, whether it was Thanksgiving or Christmas,
I was pulling weight for a wrestling tournament. I was dealing with the stress of having to
(51:12):
go fight some other dude on a mat. OK, so like Thanksgiving, we would go to this tournament
every year called the Oklahoma Open. So from the sixth grade through the 12th grade, I
was in Norman, Oklahoma every year at the toughest wrestling tournament, probably in
the country. Usually getting whipped. And we would eat Thanksgiving dinner at the first
(51:35):
cafeteria every year for Thanksgiving. So Christmas we had what was called the Oolaga
Classic. We would have two a day practices. I can't even tell you how hard those practices
were. There's nothing I've ever done in life as hard as those practices. So everybody else
is off for Christmas break. I'm. Yes, like somebody working two shifts. And at the end
(52:04):
of that second shift, we would have to do 45 minutes of man eaters in a superheated
wrestling room with my uncle yelling obscenities at us. You know, so there's one Christmas
where we were training for this tournament, the Oolaga Classic, and I'm pulling weight
(52:25):
and I never get to eat Christmas food. You know, and we have this major snow storm and
the tournament is canceled and I'm like, yes. And I pig out on sausage balls and divinity.
Divinity is this white candy that was around. I ate so much of that that I threw up that
(52:48):
night and I do this day. I cannot stand the taste of divinity, but I will never forget
how good it felt to just throw off the stress and the pressure of having to go fight another
dude and then to get to eat on Christmas. So that was like that was the Christmas memory
(53:11):
that stood out to me the most. And it is to this day, to be honest with you. Yeah. Yeah.
All right. Is there anything else that you wanted to talk about? Did we cover all of
your questions? I believe we did cover cover all of them. Yeah. Well, if you think you've
(53:37):
got enough to tell our story, we didn't really touch on, we didn't really touch on why the
split happened. Um, and I think that's in, that's an important story to be told. It might,
it might be too complicated for a newspaper story, you know, um, but at the end of the
(54:01):
day, there was a group that was pushing for changing the definition of Christian marriage,
which is a lifelong monogamous relationship between one man and one woman to allow for
homosexual marriage in our churches. And it was, uh, affirming the ordination of active
(54:27):
acting, practicing homosexual clergy. And so there is a deep theological perspective
behind those differences of opinion that are, that make that issue just the tip of the iceberg.
(54:49):
Like I was telling you, there's so much beneath the surface that, um, created a division before
that particular issue took center stage. Um, are you saying like that issue touched on
a lot of other issues? Yeah, like, uh, well, just to do a brief rundown. So with the Protestant
(55:15):
reformation in the 1500s that created a division in the church. Now that led to actual all-out
war in Europe for over a hundred years. Uh, people got sick of the constant war between
Christian factions, literal war. Um, so in the 1700s that led to what is called the enlightenment
(55:39):
where the prominent thinkers began to become more secular in their thinking because they
were sick of the fighting between Christian groups. And so that led directly to, you know,
part of our constitution, a clear distinction between church and state, you know, uh, now
(56:00):
that secular thinking that was started in the 1700s began taking over our universities
and that began crossing over into our seminaries. So in the, uh, early 1900s, the place where
clergy went to get trained to lead the church became more secular in their thinking about
(56:24):
the Bible, demythologizing the text, stripping out the supernatural aspects of scripture,
thinking of it primarily as a book written by a man, uh, rather than a book revealed
by God. And so that's why in the, uh, in the 1900s, it became a joke that the pastors went,
(56:48):
they didn't go to seminaries, they went to cemeteries because it's the place where their
faith went to die. And so that's kind of a joke to this day, but, uh, it is that secular
mindset applied to scripture and religion that leads people to conclude some of the
(57:11):
things written in the book are optional and do not apply to us today. We have evolved
and progressed beyond some of the backward standards that are written there. So there
are those of us who believe that the scripture is primarily divine revelation. It's God's
(57:36):
self disclosure to humanity. It is unique. It is authoritative and it is not to be so
easily dismissed. And so that's the big backdrop behind the division that leads us to two different
conclusions about many issues, not just the homosexual issue, many other issues that divide
(58:00):
us, you know, and most of them are reflected in the political realm.
Yeah. And I think like politics, that could cause a lot of people to stop going to a church
because the pastor's politics doesn't agree with theirs. And I know my pastor, I go to
(58:24):
house Redeemer, his name is Russell Cohen. And he always keeps politics out of every
sermon he does. It's just all about scripture. And we've been doing the book of John for
two years now. He told me that. He just thrives with detail and he examines every sentence,
(58:53):
every word. And he tells you about things you never heard about because he does research,
all butcher research. He spends all day Saturday just practicing his sermon. And every time
he does sermon, like I feel like it's a brand new amazing experience. And I believe it's
(59:21):
his, his loyalty to interpreting scripture that makes it so amazing. And that's why I
keep going to house Redeemer. We meet in a southeast Mexico Baptist building, Crosshomale
(59:43):
Hospital. And we're growing very quickly. I wrote a story recently about how we increased
by about 40 members just over the past year. I believe a big part of that is the people
(01:00:04):
who go there plus Russell's sermons. Well, that's exactly what I told him. People are
hungry for the word of God, whether they know it or not. If you make that your priority
and you do it well, it will produce results. I believe that with all my heart. So yeah,
(01:00:30):
I never realized there were so many parts in the Bible that God made certain they happened.
And Russell points out exactly where in the Bible he does that. Where did God make sure
something happened because that fulfills scripture?
(01:00:54):
Well, you think you got enough to make an article?
I believe I have enough and I appreciate being able to come on your show very much. I would
love to come back here and talk to you again. Anytime you've got a conversation you want
(01:01:19):
to have or a story you want to write, this table is always open to you. All right, I'll
be here. All right. Thanks for coming, Rich. Enjoyed it.
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